My dad told me that the fundamentally different 2 types of people where 'Those that like Neil Diamond' & 'Those who do Not!'😂 He was in the latter, I'm not.
Hittite, entering the room and shouting: *h1*, *h2*, *h3*...! Germanic, spitting out its morning-mead, before asking for clarification: *h*, *xh* *çh* ?! Indo-Iranian angrily responding: *h*, *h2*; *XXXHHH*!!! Greek, treacherously as ever, exclaiming self-confidently: *xh*, *çh*... Spanish, lazy as ever, relying solely on a single option without any [phonemic] plan B: *xh*. French: Nope.
Swords of the Tocharian Knights depict in the murals of the Kizil Caves strikingly similar with Celtic long swords. And also physical appearance of the Tocharians similar with Celtic people . Like reddish hair, green eyes, unusually tall stature.
Some linguists like J.Puhvel have also demonstrated some evidence that Tocharian was linguistically closer to Italo-Celtic and Anatolian than the other PIE languages (he coined the group western Indo European). It's very interesting considering the location of Tocharian and the observations you have made. One thing's for sure... Tocharian has an interesting history!
Scythian longswords are also similar and geographically smack in the middle between Tocharian and Celtic speakers. Red hair originated in Central Asia so encountering it, should be a given, the Udmurt people have the highest percentage of redheads of any distinct population worldwide. Of them, every fourth individual is a ginger; they speak a Fenno-Ugric language but their ethnonym is Iranian in origin, reflected by 80% of them having Haplogroup N (the signature Fenno-Ugric gemetic marker but common in all Siberian peoples to a substantial degree), 19% R1A (the signature Indo-Aryan and Slavic genetic marker, noticeably being borderline absent in Uralic speakers east of the Ural mountains and also the Balto-Finnic peoples). You see, the picture becomes very blurry when moving beyond the most superficial commonalities in archeology which might be ancestral to all Indoeuropeans or possibly Indo-Uralic peoples in the first place. Green eyes are technically more common to Germanic speakers than any other population, the place where green eyes first occurred was the same as for blonde and red hair, extended contact between Germanic, certain Uralic and Western-Iranian languages is evident from extant data and from historical analysis. Asssuming Indoeuropean (Haplogroup R) and Uralic (Haplogroup N) were never rooted in a shared proto-language, at the end of the day the irregular but nevertheless profound exchange of genes, material culture and language extending back so deep into the past that we're in the ice age, can reasonably be seen as having formed a relation of Indoeuropean and Uralic like "sister-languages-in-law" if they aren't genuine sister language families.
The decidedly non-Celtic Udmurts are a lot closer and have more red hair than any other population on the planet. Anyway - the “red haired” people of the earliest burials found (the “boat burials”) who were also labelled Tocharians turned out to be a couple of thousand years earlier than the evidence for the language. There is no reason to assume they are the same population - especially since this was a trade route for many centuries. This is why he pointed out their own names for themselves: the arśi and the Kuśeññe. Their language really should be referred to that way, to prevent this kind of conflation.
Some notes: At 10:20 there is a type for the ALL and ABL case, the K and T should be reversed as in the other cases. Thanks to @abandoninplace2751 At 0:20 I will clarify my statement regarding the 'closeness' of Hittite and Tocharian with a quotation from Jasanoff, 2017: 'Interestingly, some of the strongest indicators of the archaic status of Anatolian were the special traits that Hittite shared with Tocharian. These included the joint failure of Anatolian and Tocharian to form thorn clusters, the limited development of the thematic conjugation, and the mixed, still largely non-sigmatic character of what was to become the s-aorist. The adoption of a “layered” model of Proto-Indo-European thus showed not only that Anatolian was the first branch to leave the family, but also that Tocharian, the other “new” branch at the beginning of the twentieth century, was the second'
this is very interesting. I can speak a little bit of Latin, and I noticed with the sentence 'pacer yakwa matri aissam' a definite link with Latin, which would be 'Pater lanam matrae dat'
It's interesting that Tocharian lost the dative case and used the genitive in its place. The use of the dative was greatly reduced in Classical Sanskrit and was usually replaced by the genitive to express indirect objects.
Yes, modern Uyghurs are a mixture of the Turkic language ethnic group, the Uyghurs, who migrated south from the Mongolian Plateau to replace the Indo European language ethnic group (Tocharian）in the Xinjiang region.
“Tocharian blood” meaning some genetic descent from the Tarim basin boat-burials, known to geneticists as the Tarim 1 and Tarim 2 groups: but these predate the Arśi-Kuśśene language evidence by rouhly THREE THOUSAND years. There is no particular reason to think the traders who left those linguistic records were the same people as in those burials.
Have you considered that maybe the dative and genitive merged together, like in Albanian? There is a paper that argues why in Indo-European languages the genitive is likely to merge with either the dative or the ablative. In Greek, dative disappeared since the age of the papyri, replaced by genitive or by accusative in some dialects.
@@LearnHittite Links in a comment moves it automatically to a spam bin, but I can give you papers and sites from where you can download or read them: SearchGate: 1.Parallel Syncretism in Early Indo-European (ICHL23) 2. Genitive-Dative Syncretism in the Balkan Sprachbund 3.Dative by Genitive Replacement in the Greek Language of the Papyri: A Diachronic Account of Case Semantics KUPDF: 1.Historical Linguistics - Toward a Twenty-First Century Reintegration (Ringe and Eska) - has a chapter on case merger in different languages Some remarks on multiple-term case labels: the Hittite dative-locative GoogleBooks: Historical Linguistics, by Bridget Drinka On KUPDF I found two books on Albanian by Vladimir Orel & two historical dictionaries (Alb-Eng) by Stuart Mann and so many more books that are hard to find. My interests revolve around paleo-Balkan languages, including Phrygian and Burushaski. Several books by Ilja Čašule, on this last language, are confirming some links with Phrygian and Albanian; at least in vocabulary.
Yes, in modern Greek the genitive case of weak personal pronouns has also taken on the function of the dative: μου (of me/to me), της (of her/to her), etc.
14:00 how do we know (if at all) that the loanwords come from tocharian into those language and not the other way around? is it through trying to convert them to PIE?
Very good question. One way is to look at the shape of the root, there are other methods and of course linguists often debate the direction of loaning.
Would it be accurate to compare the relationship with Tocharian A to Tocharian B to that of Ecclesiastical Latin with Classical Latin and Classic Sanskrit to Vedic Sanskrit?
Dynamic characteristics of the structural features of the tocharian suggests the identification of several chrono- logical layers, which can be correlated with different stages of history its carriers and their migrations. The protocharian language dates back to a special dialect of the common Indo-European proto-language, in the latter spoke around the 5th -4th millennium BC. e. tribes that lived but west of Central Asia: either in the Northern Black Sea region, or in the Volga-Ural steppes 1. In any of the natural theories of the Indo-European ancestral home remains undeniable that,, having separated from other related dialects, Protocharian had to go a very long way, the last stage of the which leads through Central Asia to Eastern Turkestan(Xinjiang)
woolwoolens ~ yokyakwe? I tried swapping the first two in the example in another of your videos. My mind goes to 'data' (vs clunky 'datum') Good luck! And Thanks! (for now)
How did the ancient indo European people travel so far away from their homeland and what made the population split.😮 And it’s quite interesting that there were also Iranian speakers khotanese dwelling alone the tarim river. Did the tocharians and the khotanese know each other or they may not live at the same time?
I think many, if not all, language families naturally go through a process of diffusion and dispersal. Indo-European is no different to say the Uralic language family, or the Bantu language family in that regard.
I think it might have been a Crecganford video, but I can't remember. In it, they explained that a common practice amongst the IEs was to expel all the young males from the tribe when the tribe's population got unsustainably high. These roving bands of men would then head off to other areas and settle to form new tribes, but not before doing a lot of raiding in between. It wouldn't take long for this process to become exponential in growth and spread of the language in the waves we see.
Concerning the replacement of the dative with the genitive, this is something that has also happened to most greek dialects, except for the one of Thessalonike, which replaced it with the accusative. There is a joke about how, while most Greeks say "I want to make -for you- some mincemeat, to make -for you- meatballs", Thessaloniceans say "I want to turn you into mincemeat, to turn you into meatballs".
I don't see linguistic evidence for the Afansievo theory, a southern route is more likely (shared farming terms with Iranian) ... And genetic evidence is still in its infancy
I will confess that I only glanced through the resource I had connected to Tocharian and Indo-Iranian loans but why would it indicate a more southern route?
Nothing west part of China, in Chinese history Caucasian look people are also everywhere in China proper. Up till Ming dynasty, those Caucasian were finally eliminated from China.
hm...maybe the tocharians who called themselves kushans,had sth to do with shusha,which is located in azerbaycan,the caucasus...these noble people in the tarim basin are either prototurkic or scythians coming from the caucasus or are their descendants...the mummies which were found there have lots of things in common with the traditional culture of anatolia,the caucasus,and central asia...even the step...their language?i heard,that coming closer to buddhism they adopted more indo words,and were affected by neighboring languages...originally,i think they had an agglunitative language,that is,it was uralic.
Turkish languages weren''t spoken in Anatolia or Caucasus until middle ages then nothing to do with ancient Azerbaycan. Maybe if there are things in common, it is due to common indoeuropean roots between tocharian, hittites of Anatolia, iranian scythes etc. Kushana probably derive from Kucha, a tocharian city-state in modern Sinkiang.
Most English speakers have a poor sense of the distances involved in time and place between “Tocharian” mummies and “Tocharian” linguistic evidence. Mummies are found across an area larger than all of Europe and span a couple of thousand years and several cultures. What they have in common is that the super-arid climate preserved them. They comprise a wide range of genetic backgrounds as you would expect of a vast region that had a stable population from around the start of the Holocene to the late neolithic / bronze age, when it got a major global grade route run right through the centre of it.
@@kephrekhtheunbroken7510 You should check out the pronunciations from old Chinese from wikitionary. In old Chinese (1000BC Shang dynasty), dog (犬) was kwon, which is clearly khwen (dog in proto-Indo European).
@@kephrekhtheunbroken7510Dog, horse, and honey are all almost certainly from PIE, likely through Tocharian tradition. English mead vs. Chinese mi English mare vs. Chinese ma English hound vs. Chinese quan Which makes sense, since it seems the PIE were one of the first groups to possess the domesticated horse, and possibly the first group to invent the spoked wheel. And honey was one of the main food items of the original PIE.
You butchered the name of the Afanas'evo culture, it's AfanAs'evo, with the emphasis on the second A, which you completely omitted... :) It comes from Russian name 'Afanasiy' that is equivalent of the Greek name 'Athanasius'.
@@LearnHittite , Thank you for the video, I found it after searching for data about the origin of Proto-Tocharians, and you gave me exactly that. BTW, there was a paper in 2021 claiming that Tarim mummies did not descend from the Afanasievo based on genomic data (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8580821/).
@@LearnHittite , Thank you for the video, I found it after searching for data about the origin of Proto-Tocharians, and you gave me exactly that. BTW, there was a paper in 2021 claiming that Tarim mummies did not descend from the Afanasievo based on genomic data. The name of the article is 'The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies', you can easily find it online (I can't leave the link in the comment, since RUclips removes it).
Tocharian is not closely related to Hittite. Tocharian is actually a branch of extinct Indo-European languages very distantly related to the Anatolian languages. And correct the Tocharians came from the Afanasievo culture
I disagree, but I understand I could have termed it better. My main argument is that Hittite and Tocharian (or rather Proto-Anatolian and Proto-Tocharian) are not part of the 'Inner-IE' group. See Kassian et al., 2021 (www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ling-2020-0060/html?lang=en). Most academics consider Anatolian to be the first language group to split, with Tocharian being the second. As we know, Hittite is the best-attested Anatolian language, and a significant amount of the Proto-Anatolian reconstruction data comes from Hittite and Luwian. I believe Kloekhorst places the time between the Anatolian and Tocharian split at around 800 years, while others suggest a shorter duration (Ringe-Taylor-Warnow). Tocharian and Anatolian share interesting lexical characteristics (such as verbs for 'to die,' 'to drink,' and 'to make'). They also exhibit similarities in wh-question syntax (as discussed in Windhearn's draft paper) and features like the individualizing plural endings '*-anta.' Of course, there are key differences. Early articles on the subject, like 'Hittite and Tocharian' by Peterson in 1933, proposed that these languages were in dialectic unity for some time. While I'm uncertain about that, I do believe that Tocharian's 'closest' attested relative would be Hittite. I'll add a pinned comment to clarify and I'm welcome to hear your counter arguments.
Hittite and Tocharian ARE closely related. Old Hittite and Tocharian split within 500 years of each other... Let's look at other language families... In Sino Tibetan, Old Chinese and Burmese split after 4000 years, in proto Semitic Akkadian and Amharic split after 3500 years.... 500 - 800 years is nothing.
Tocharian(Kussine, Arsi) people are ANE people not Hittite. very far relationship. Tocharians are 80% Ancient North Eurasian genetic pool. Which are Ancestors of EHG who are ancestors of Yamnaya.
Are you suggesting P.I.E. didn’t originate from the Pontic caspian steppe or the Caucasus but rather from Western Europe??? There is absolutely no support for your hypothesis, and I’d wager there is more support for the hypothesis that the urheimat of indo-european was in Anatolia than there is for it being in Western Europe.
@@Rudol_ZeppiliHave you seen the recent dna studies from, I believe, Max Planck Institute. Area north of Caucus, Pontic area. DNA isn’t same as language spread by any means, but certainly indicative, especially when combined with archaeological evidence.
The evidence for the LANGUAGE called Tocharian is a couple of thousand years later than the Tarim Basin mummies of the boat burials, the groups we now call Tarim 1 and Tarim 2. There’s no particular reason to assume it was the same population.
There are essentially two classes of humans: those who can pronounce the laryngeals and those who can't (I confess to the latter 😅)
😅
A third class must be those people who don't believe in them 😀
My dad told me that the fundamentally different 2 types of people where 'Those that like Neil Diamond' & 'Those who do Not!'😂
He was in the latter, I'm not.
Hittite, entering the room and shouting: *h1*, *h2*, *h3*...!
Germanic, spitting out its morning-mead, before asking for clarification: *h*, *xh* *çh* ?!
Indo-Iranian angrily responding: *h*, *h2*; *XXXHHH*!!!
Greek, treacherously as ever, exclaiming self-confidently: *xh*, *çh*...
Spanish, lazy as ever, relying solely on a single option without any [phonemic] plan B: *xh*.
French: Nope.
Swords of the Tocharian Knights depict in the murals of the Kizil Caves strikingly similar with Celtic long swords.
And also physical appearance of the Tocharians similar with Celtic people . Like reddish hair, green eyes, unusually tall stature.
Some linguists like J.Puhvel have also demonstrated some evidence that Tocharian was linguistically closer to Italo-Celtic and Anatolian than the other PIE languages (he coined the group western Indo European). It's very interesting considering the location of Tocharian and the observations you have made. One thing's for sure... Tocharian has an interesting history!
Yes even Tocharian language is similar to Proto Celtic.
but different ancestors
Ita very cool
Scythian longswords are also similar and geographically smack in the middle between Tocharian and Celtic speakers.
Red hair originated in Central Asia so encountering it, should be a given, the Udmurt people have the highest percentage of redheads of any distinct population worldwide. Of them, every fourth individual is a ginger; they speak a Fenno-Ugric language but their ethnonym is Iranian in origin, reflected by 80% of them having Haplogroup N (the signature Fenno-Ugric gemetic marker but common in all Siberian peoples to a substantial degree), 19% R1A (the signature Indo-Aryan and Slavic genetic marker, noticeably being borderline absent in Uralic speakers east of the Ural mountains and also the Balto-Finnic peoples).
You see, the picture becomes very blurry when moving beyond the most superficial commonalities in archeology which might be ancestral to all Indoeuropeans or possibly Indo-Uralic peoples in the first place. Green eyes are technically more common to Germanic speakers than any other population, the place where green eyes first occurred was the same as for blonde and red hair, extended contact between Germanic, certain Uralic and Western-Iranian languages is evident from extant data and from historical analysis.
Asssuming Indoeuropean (Haplogroup R) and Uralic (Haplogroup N) were never rooted in a shared proto-language, at the end of the day the irregular but nevertheless profound exchange of genes, material culture and language extending back so deep into the past that we're in the ice age, can reasonably be seen as having formed a relation of Indoeuropean and Uralic like "sister-languages-in-law" if they aren't genuine sister language families.
The decidedly non-Celtic Udmurts are a lot closer and have more red hair than any other population on the planet. Anyway - the “red haired” people of the earliest burials found (the “boat burials”) who were also labelled Tocharians turned out to be a couple of thousand years earlier than the evidence for the language. There is no reason to assume they are the same population - especially since this was a trade route for many centuries. This is why he pointed out their own names for themselves: the arśi and the Kuśeññe. Their language really should be referred to that way, to prevent this kind of conflation.
Some notes:
At 10:20 there is a type for the ALL and ABL case, the K and T should be reversed as in the other cases.
Thanks to @abandoninplace2751
At 0:20 I will clarify my statement regarding the 'closeness' of Hittite and Tocharian with a quotation from Jasanoff, 2017:
'Interestingly, some of the strongest indicators of the archaic status of Anatolian were the special traits that Hittite shared with Tocharian. These included the joint failure of Anatolian and Tocharian to form thorn clusters, the limited development of the thematic conjugation, and the mixed, still largely non-sigmatic character of what was to become the s-aorist. The adoption of a “layered”
model of Proto-Indo-European thus showed not only that Anatolian was the first branch to leave the family, but also that Tocharian, the other “new” branch at the beginning of the twentieth century, was the second'
this is very interesting. I can speak a little bit of Latin, and I noticed with the sentence 'pacer yakwa matri aissam' a definite link with Latin, which would be 'Pater lanam matrae dat'
It's interesting that Tocharian lost the dative case and used the genitive in its place. The use of the dative was greatly reduced in Classical Sanskrit and was usually replaced by the genitive to express indirect objects.
Thank you very much. It was fascinating and excellent
Thank you very much for your kind words! They motivate me endlessly!
Today Uyghurs of north Tarim basin have some Tocharian blood
Absolutely
@@LearnHittite and the Tajiks of xinjiang are the saka people
Yes, modern Uyghurs are a mixture of the Turkic language ethnic group, the Uyghurs, who migrated south from the Mongolian Plateau to replace the Indo European language ethnic group (Tocharian）in the Xinjiang region.
“Tocharian blood” meaning some genetic descent from the Tarim basin boat-burials, known to geneticists as the Tarim 1 and Tarim 2 groups: but these predate the Arśi-Kuśśene language evidence by rouhly THREE THOUSAND years. There is no particular reason to think the traders who left those linguistic records were the same people as in those burials.
Might one assume that circa 10:20 for ALL and ABL that we have mere typo transposition of k and t?
Yes, you are correct, I'll add the correction to the pinned comment. Thank you!
Have you considered that maybe the dative and genitive merged together, like in Albanian? There is a paper that argues why in Indo-European languages the genitive is likely to merge with either the dative or the ablative. In Greek, dative disappeared since the age of the papyri, replaced by genitive or by accusative in some dialects.
I'd love to read the paper. Drop me the link if you have it
@@LearnHittite Links in a comment moves it automatically to a spam bin, but I can give you papers and sites from where you can download or read them:
SearchGate:
1.Parallel Syncretism in Early Indo-European (ICHL23)
2. Genitive-Dative Syncretism in the Balkan Sprachbund
3.Dative by Genitive Replacement in the Greek Language of the Papyri: A Diachronic Account of Case Semantics
KUPDF:
1.Historical Linguistics - Toward a Twenty-First Century Reintegration (Ringe and Eska) - has a chapter on case merger in different languages
Some remarks on multiple-term case labels: the Hittite dative-locative
GoogleBooks:
Historical Linguistics, by Bridget Drinka
On KUPDF I found two books on Albanian by Vladimir Orel & two historical dictionaries (Alb-Eng) by Stuart Mann and so many more books that are hard to find. My interests revolve around paleo-Balkan languages, including Phrygian and Burushaski. Several books by Ilja Čašule, on this last language, are confirming some links with Phrygian and Albanian; at least in vocabulary.
Yes, in modern Greek the genitive case of weak personal pronouns has also taken on the function of the dative: μου (of me/to me), της (of her/to her), etc.
14:00 how do we know (if at all) that the loanwords come from tocharian into those language and not the other way around? is it through trying to convert them to PIE?
Very good question. One way is to look at the shape of the root, there are other methods and of course linguists often debate the direction of loaning.
@@LearnHittite because for example indo european and mongolic roots are fundamentally different?
In polish once was cma (slavic originally meaning 'darkness', now 'a moth') that meant also a great number, 10.000 😅
"Их тьмы и тьмы" = "there are tens and tens thousands of them", eh?
@@vlagavulvin3847то есть "тьма тьмущая" это сто миллионов?
@@jeandelepiechat sounds alike, yupp
Would it be accurate to compare the relationship with Tocharian A to Tocharian B to that of Ecclesiastical Latin with Classical Latin and Classic Sanskrit to Vedic Sanskrit?
It would be odd since tocharian b is the more conservative of the two languages
Here whe have some loan words
Tumane
In English too many ? Probably not related but still
Legend.🙂
Tocharians mixed in with the Uyghur population later.
And don't forget kushans and scythians..
Not really, only some, most migrated towards iran and indian subcontinent
Is it possible there's a relationship between the laryngeal H and the Early Hebrew letter "hey" (as in yod hey vav hey)?
Nice video (: I hope you get out of the Tarim basin safe and sound though
It was a tough journey...but I finally made it 😉
@@LearnHittite 😄
Dynamic characteristics of the structural features of the tocharian suggests the identification of several chrono-
logical layers, which can be correlated with different stages of history
its carriers and their migrations. The protocharian language dates back to
a special dialect of the common Indo-European proto-language, in the latter
spoke around the 5th -4th millennium BC. e. tribes that lived
but west of Central Asia: either in the Northern Black Sea region,
or in the Volga-Ural steppes 1. In any of the natural
theories of the Indo-European ancestral home remains undeniable that,,
having separated from other related dialects, Protocharian
had to go a very long way, the last stage of the
which leads through Central Asia to Eastern Turkestan(Xinjiang)
i am china gansu turks origins（hui），i have original red beard and brown hair pale skin，maybe i have tocharian blood.lol
woolwoolens ~ yokyakwe? I tried swapping the first two in the example in another of your videos. My mind goes to 'data' (vs clunky 'datum') Good luck! And Thanks! (for now)
Thanks for your support!
How did the ancient indo European people travel so far away from their homeland and what made the population split.😮
And it’s quite interesting that there were also Iranian speakers khotanese dwelling alone the tarim river. Did the tocharians and the khotanese know each other or they may not live at the same time?
I think many, if not all, language families naturally go through a process of diffusion and dispersal. Indo-European is no different to say the Uralic language family, or the Bantu language family in that regard.
I think it might have been a Crecganford video, but I can't remember. In it, they explained that a common practice amongst the IEs was to expel all the young males from the tribe when the tribe's population got unsustainably high. These roving bands of men would then head off to other areas and settle to form new tribes, but not before doing a lot of raiding in between. It wouldn't take long for this process to become exponential in growth and spread of the language in the waves we see.
Dude . They didnt travel anywhere . They were from there proto indo Europeans gave birth to eurorpeans.. where have you been?
@@Ecstaticgoat i mean those who traveled to the tocharian land
Yes they knew of eachother because the history is written in detail among hindu scripts. Kushans were the descendants out of these people.
do we know of any substrate like a north or west paleo-siberian language, in indo-europea?
I'm not aware of any formal attempts to demonstrate a substrate but I'm sure many people have speculated.
Concerning the replacement of the dative with the genitive, this is something that has also happened to most greek dialects, except for the one of Thessalonike, which replaced it with the accusative. There is a joke about how, while most Greeks say "I want to make -for you- some mincemeat, to make -for you- meatballs", Thessaloniceans say "I want to turn you into mincemeat, to turn you into meatballs".
That's really interesting! I'll have to investigate that one further
Indoeuropeans 😎
Why the verb is.conjugated like this?
Which verb?
@@LearnHittite aiśśam
I don't see linguistic evidence for the Afansievo theory, a southern route is more likely (shared farming terms with Iranian) ... And genetic evidence is still in its infancy
I will confess that I only glanced through the resource I had connected to Tocharian and Indo-Iranian loans but why would it indicate a more southern route?
Afanasevo
*CE
Nothing west part of China, in Chinese history Caucasian look people are also everywhere in China proper. Up till Ming dynasty, those Caucasian were finally eliminated from China.
interesting turkic loans
hm...maybe the tocharians who called themselves kushans,had sth to do with shusha,which is located in azerbaycan,the caucasus...these noble people in the tarim basin are either prototurkic or scythians coming from the caucasus or are their descendants...the mummies which were found there have lots of things in common with the traditional culture of anatolia,the caucasus,and central asia...even the step...their language?i heard,that coming closer to buddhism they adopted more indo words,and were affected by neighboring languages...originally,i think they had an agglunitative language,that is,it was uralic.
Turkish languages weren''t spoken in Anatolia or Caucasus until middle ages then nothing to do with ancient Azerbaycan. Maybe if there are things in common, it is due to common indoeuropean roots between tocharian, hittites of Anatolia, iranian scythes etc.
Kushana probably derive from Kucha, a tocharian city-state in modern Sinkiang.
Tochari means descendants of arias.
Tohol-descendant ari-arias.
Supposedly, after the flooding of the Black Sea, an eastward migration wave developed.
Most English speakers have a poor sense of the distances involved in time and place between “Tocharian” mummies and “Tocharian” linguistic evidence. Mummies are found across an area larger than all of Europe and span a couple of thousand years and several cultures. What they have in common is that the super-arid climate preserved them.
They comprise a wide range of genetic backgrounds as you would expect of a vast region that had a stable population from around the start of the Holocene to the late neolithic / bronze age, when it got a major global grade route run right through the centre of it.
Chinese borrowed words of lion, mead, dog, hound from Tocharian.
Lion is From Iranian Language
@@PatriotOfPersia Can you elaborate?
I thought dog/hound was not a borrowing in Chinese
@@kephrekhtheunbroken7510 You should check out the pronunciations from old Chinese from wikitionary. In old Chinese (1000BC Shang dynasty), dog (犬) was kwon, which is clearly khwen (dog in proto-Indo European).
@@kephrekhtheunbroken7510Dog, horse, and honey are all almost certainly from PIE, likely through Tocharian tradition.
English mead vs. Chinese mi
English mare vs. Chinese ma
English hound vs. Chinese quan
Which makes sense, since it seems the PIE were one of the first groups to possess the domesticated horse, and possibly the first group to invent the spoked wheel. And honey was one of the main food items of the original PIE.
You butchered the name of the Afanas'evo culture, it's AfanAs'evo, with the emphasis on the second A, which you completely omitted... :) It comes from Russian name 'Afanasiy' that is equivalent of the Greek name 'Athanasius'.
Thanks for the feedback!
@@LearnHittite , Thank you for the video, I found it after searching for data about the origin of Proto-Tocharians, and you gave me exactly that. BTW, there was a paper in 2021 claiming that Tarim mummies did not descend from the Afanasievo based on genomic data (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8580821/).
@@LearnHittite , Thank you for the video, I found it after searching for data about the origin of Proto-Tocharians, and you gave me exactly that. BTW, there was a paper in 2021 claiming that Tarim mummies did not descend from the Afanasievo based on genomic data. The name of the article is 'The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies', you can easily find it online (I can't leave the link in the comment, since RUclips removes it).
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Tocharian is not closely related to Hittite. Tocharian is actually a branch of extinct Indo-European languages very distantly related to the Anatolian languages.
And correct the Tocharians came from the Afanasievo culture
I disagree, but I understand I could have termed it better.
My main argument is that Hittite and Tocharian (or rather Proto-Anatolian and Proto-Tocharian) are not part of the 'Inner-IE' group. See Kassian et al., 2021 (www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ling-2020-0060/html?lang=en). Most academics consider Anatolian to be the first language group to split, with Tocharian being the second. As we know, Hittite is the best-attested Anatolian language, and a significant amount of the Proto-Anatolian reconstruction data comes from Hittite and Luwian.
I believe Kloekhorst places the time between the Anatolian and Tocharian split at around 800 years, while others suggest a shorter duration (Ringe-Taylor-Warnow). Tocharian and Anatolian share interesting lexical characteristics (such as verbs for 'to die,' 'to drink,' and 'to make'). They also exhibit similarities in wh-question syntax (as discussed in Windhearn's draft paper) and features like the individualizing plural endings '*-anta.' Of course, there are key differences.
Early articles on the subject, like 'Hittite and Tocharian' by Peterson in 1933, proposed that these languages were in dialectic unity for some time. While I'm uncertain about that, I do believe that Tocharian's 'closest' attested relative would be Hittite.
I'll add a pinned comment to clarify and I'm welcome to hear your counter arguments.
Hittite and Tocharian ARE closely related. Old Hittite and Tocharian split within 500 years of each other... Let's look at other language families... In Sino Tibetan, Old Chinese and Burmese split after 4000 years, in proto Semitic Akkadian and Amharic split after 3500 years.... 500 - 800 years is nothing.
@@LearnHittite
I didn't finish my initial comment. I got busy. But I'll be sure to get back to on this.
It is not distantly related but related.
Tocharian(Kussine, Arsi)
people are ANE people not Hittite.
very far relationship.
Tocharians are 80% Ancient North Eurasian genetic pool.
Which are Ancestors of EHG who are ancestors of Yamnaya.
Anatolian, Celtic, Tocharian, proves that migrations came from west Europe! Not all the way around!
Are you suggesting P.I.E. didn’t originate from the Pontic caspian steppe or the Caucasus but rather from Western Europe??? There is absolutely no support for your hypothesis, and I’d wager there is more support for the hypothesis that the urheimat of indo-european was in Anatolia than there is for it being in Western Europe.
@@Rudol_ZeppiliHave you seen the recent dna studies from, I believe, Max Planck Institute. Area north of Caucus, Pontic area. DNA isn’t same as language spread by any means, but certainly indicative, especially when combined with archaeological evidence.
The evidence for the LANGUAGE called Tocharian is a couple of thousand years later than the Tarim Basin mummies of the boat burials, the groups we now call Tarim 1 and Tarim 2. There’s no particular reason to assume it was the same population.
Language variation between Tocharian dialects dates proto Tocharian to that time period, that's why. Check the work of Ronald Kim for datings etc.