Trope Talk: Deus Ex Machinas
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2022
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The chariot in Medea. The giant eagles in Lord of the Rings. The tenth level D&D cleric ability Divine Intervention. You know this trope, and you know the tone it's usually described in. But I think it's time we talked about the good side of the narrative hand of god swooping down to save the day!
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Maybe the real Deus Ex were the friends we arbitrarily met along the way.
- JC Denton
Ohhhh!!!
I mean judging by most out of nowhere powerups in anime I'd say yeah
Amen.
Deus Ex Nakama
I'm reminded of a Pixar rule of storytelling:
"Coincidences that get your character into trouble are great. Coincidences that get your character out of trouble are cheating."
I've hear the same rule given regarding magic that doesn't follow strictly defined guidelines. Wild magic unexpectedly sends protagonist to other world? Excellent setup. Wild magic unexpectedly beats the final boss? Garbage ending.
JoJo disagrees with that, coincidences both screw and save characters, and that is awesome
@@galenwilds3273 with the right setup, like Ron's wand wiping Gilderoys memory, it isn't garbage
@@devforfun5618 I'd say that's less of an example, since Ron's wand having trouble was established since the beginning and a backfire acts as a good "hoist by your own petard" moment.
Also the only JoJo example i can think of is Oingo and Boingo, and their chapter is just a big joke at their expense
@@devforfun5618 That'S kind of the point, I guess. There is this other trope, something with cavalery, which is not as bad as Deus Ex Machina. Point is, the hero gets rescued by another character or a sudden event, which was set up during the plot (which is pretty common in middle grade novels, btw). Kind of a "Third Person'S Chekov's gun". Knights of the Zodiac pulls this as well with one of the characters, Phoenix Ikki (at least in the original). This guy is seamingly immortal and mind-blowingly overpowered. And he ALWAYS shows up to rescue his kid brother, who most of the time just straight up refuses to fight. Point is: He comes, sorts the situation out for his brother, checks if the other need him in that moment and if not, leaves to probably not come back that season. But it is all sat up in his character in a understandable way, so he doesn't feel cheap. Not even when he shows up in Omega, where they managed to really surprise me and my friend and making us believe that Ikki actually died. Just to let him be the Deus coming out of absolutly nowhere while everything was dead (well, by definition. Time has completly stopped for all live on earth). He goes on helping the main hero, shrugs and leaves like nothing ever had happened. And even so it was clearly a cheap solution for the authors to get the hero out of an unwinnable state, it didn't feel that way. The scene is actually my personal favourite in regards to this character, because it lines up perfectly with everything the viewer knows about him.
But the set-up to this spans over 200 episodes in two series.
Side note: It's 100% badass when your characters *are* the deus ex machina in somebody else's story.
I believe that's known as the "Big Damn Heroes" trope.
@@unknownbystander8145 AKA every halo encounter with friendly marines
This trope is very cool when an author is building a story from different POVs. Imagine a POV character suffering in a situation of seemingly no hope, buy you (the reader) knows from a different POV character that they are just about to help that person in danger. Such a cool payoff if done well.
This trope can be great but also leads to that character often getting depowered alot
Hello, Final Fantasy XIV
Most authors: "Uhh no it's not just a coincidence or plot armour this makes sense because of the deep lore and was hinted to in paragraph 8 of the prologue!!"
Douglas Addams: "This was incredibly unlikely."
Is it really a Deus Ex Machina when the Infinite Improbability Drive is a literal plot device?
I think that admitting how unlikely some deus ex machina is is itself and art
Similarly, Terry Pratchett's running joke about how wizards have calculated that 1 in a million chances crop up 9 times out of 10.
@@spring5385 don't forget that some characters in Discworld have actually tried to evoke this fact too
I may or may not have written a short piece about a villain who breaks the fourth wall and comes to the conclusion that the only win he can have is to play things so perfectly that any deus ex machina against him ruins the narrative.
“There’s a huge difference between fiction and reality: fiction has to make sense.”
- Mark Twain, maybe.
Deus Ex Machina embodies this trope. Real life can have all kinds of madcap stuff happen - how many important historical figures just drop dead from disease or accidents? But in stories that’s unacceptable.
Absolutely!! The number of monarchs or members of royal courts who "just happened" to drop dead of dysentery & similar causes at fortuitous moments seriously makes me suspect some surreptitious poisoning was going on at times! 🙄 Looking at ancient China & medieval Europe in particular... even in an era prior to a full understanding of medicine, some of these monarchs or rivals carking it proved just TOO convenient...?
I hate how true that is
I feel like the perfect example of reality having weird, coincidental events happening to facilitate a greater event is the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Aurelian: and i took that personally.
The issue is the fact that so much more is happening irl that we accept that we can't keep track of it all. Fiction isn't the same... and that's why Mark Twain's quote makes even more sense.
"Man, it sounds like this trope is going to hard to explain in the modern era."
"Actually it's going to be super easy, barely an inconvenience."
"Aw, referencing Pitch Meetings in the comments section of a Trope Talk video is tight."
If they collabed, it would be nuts
Oh, really?
Wow wow wow, wow.
“Because. That works.”
“So the movie can happen.”
“My back is where you are and I would like you to evaluate the premises.”
Yeah I see what you mean 😂
Tolkien famously coined the term "eucatastrophe", which is what Red talks about at the very end here. We'll happily accept the worst possible thing happening out of nowhere (the catastrophe), so why can't the best possible thing sometimes happen out of nowhere (a eucatastrophe)? Like ... eagles! I love this concept.
@@d.petrovic9721 Exactly.
@@d.petrovic9721 I think its also meaningful that for Sam and Frodo the damage is already done; they return to Hobbiton irrevocably harrowed by their journey with Frodo in particular unable to withstand normal life again. The eagles work structurally by taking us home, literally helping bring us back the beginning point.
Tolkien talked about the eucatastrophe specifically about Gollum, not so much about the Eagles. In the movie he falls after a struggle with Frodo but in the books it's much more simple : He gets the ring, dances, jumps around in ecstasy and falls. This is the catastrophe and the set of events that no one truly impacted (except bringing the ring to the volcano), but it brought a good thing.
@@d.petrovic9721 The eagles didn't solve the plot, but all they did was created a plot hole
@@whisperwalkful this "plot hole" is explained quite eloquently by tolkein himself.
'Shut up' - J.R.R Tolkein, a response when asked about why the eagles didn't just fly them to mordor.
I agree with that sentiment because the reasons why the eagles don't do that is just evident in the text, and shouldn't need explaining.
So here's the reasons for the silly among is (that's you, the person I am replying to).
First. Because of the eye of sauron. The reason that the hobbits were able to get into mt doom was entirely because they were small, quiet and overlooked. They were able to sneak in. Now notice what the eagles are not. They are not all of these.
However you may incredulously point out, that even if he spots them, its not like he can set up defenses at mt doom before they get there. Except you have forgotten the flying undead things I forget the name of that patrol the skies.
And even if the eagles could beat them, which I highly doubt they could do while also carrying the ring bearer, they are characterised as avoidant. They don't want to face danger, they like to keep themselves safe when they can.
Its just not a plot hole.
One of my favourite deus ex machina’s is from Watership Down, when Hazel, having launched the desperate gambit that will save his warren, is trapped in the farmyard, wounded, and about to be killed by one of the cats…when suddenly the little girl of the family pulls off the cat, brings Hazel to the family doctor, the doctor benignly looks Hazel over, and they drop him off by car at the side of a nearby country lane. From our human point of view, it is a completely plausible series of events. From the point of view of Hazel and the rabbits, it is utterly capricious and inexplicable - sometimes humans trap and shoot rabbits, and sometimes they swoop down and put them in a hrududu for a bit and then let them go.
To animals humans are the fey. Powerful, long lived, and capricious. They are always doing inexplicable things. Go to their places and they may help you in ways no one else could, kill you, or keep you forever.
@@RobotWrangler This, along with the comparison of how to an ant, a human would be like an inscrutable and unpredictable eldritch god, are among the best explanations of these kinds of supernatural entities that I've ever come across.
Humans are cthulu is my favorite trope
That chapter in Watership Down is literally *called* Dea ex Machina, I just whipped my copy down from the bookshelf to check ;)
And good point on the different POVs- you're right, to a human, it absolutely makes sense, to an animal, it would seem random and out-of-nowhere.
@@RobotWrangler great analogy. I've always said that catch and release is alien abduction for fishes, but I've never t thought about how we seem to other animals. The Fey is a great, great comparison. We even steal their babies sometimes.
"There's a difference between a fairy godmother giving the hero a magic sword, and a fairy godmother contracting the fairy corp. of engineers to shoot blast the evil emperor's doom fortress with a whimsy powered Railgun"
You say that like that wouldn't be awesome.
As the resolution to the story, it sucks. As PART of a story, it can be awesome. This is probably the part where the protagonists transition from the minor league (solving people problems) to the big league (solving fairy godmother problems). It's the kind of thing that happens in serial stories to suddenly expand the narrative's scope.
SOMEBODY WRITE THIS STORY RIGHT NOW
@@sethb3090
It could work as a resolution if not played as a Deus ex machina. Just a fight to buy time for the development of Magic Guns. It would really be the same thing, structurally.
Breath of the Wild sort of had this, actually. There was still fighting to do, but it's a triumphant moment.
@@erberor8007 "Fairy Godmother! Oh thank goodness you're here! We're in pretty dire straits. TELL ME you have something good for us."
"Ah, well, unfortunately I don't really have enough pull to commission a magical weapon on the spot. I'm afraid I'm still pretty low in the Seelie Court."
*villain's castle disappears in a heavenly pillar of light*
"But I WAS able to get something bad for them! Turns out they were enough of a problem to warrant an Excalibur-class atmospheric blast ray. So I guess that's a win? Sorry I couldn't get you your sword fight."
"Say the magic word three times to fire the Faerie Railgun, children!
WHIMSY, WHIMSY WHIMSY!"
"A faerie godmother contracting the faerie corp of engineers to blast the evil emperor's doom castle with a whimsy powered railgun."
Yeah, that's one of my favorite quotes of all time.
I really want to see that play out.
I mean that's the Deus Ex Machina I WANT to see.
I told my DM; he now insists that "Bippity Boppity Boom" be the verbal component for my fey character's next AOE spell
I now want to write the handbook for the Faerie Corps of Engineers
I want it on a T-shirt.
"There's a difference between a fairy godmother giving the hero a magical sword and a fairy godmother contracting the Fairy Corps of Engineers to blast the evil emperor's doom castle with a whimsy-powered railgun."
Now I badly want to see this someday. Maybe in Dresden Files...
You're gonna want to look into the Spellmonger series by Terry Mancour.
The Fae in Dresden are definitely not powered by whimsey in the way red was using that word in that sentence.
I’d see Lea doing that out of spite. Granted it would be part of a secret plan to get that she wants but, it would be dope af 😂
I feel like Jim introduced the Svartalves specifically to fulfill this purpose.
This is going to be in my next dnd game
I just realized... I had a test coming up that I didn't study for and on the day of the test the teacher doesn't show up. After that, a sub was there for like 2 weeks giving me enough time to study and get ready for the test. I got an A. My life literally had a deus ex machina in it.
Heh, that's nothing (or not). Throughout most of high school, I was on the verge of failing but somehow still passed. Though, maybe that's considerably just plot armor. Not so sure that's gonna kick in now....(As I'm in college and like, 2 of my grades are....Not so great. I'm probably screwed. What's worse, my folks don't want me making so much as a C.)
Yooo nice
Recently I had a college assignment to write a script for a short story and it was due for a Monday class and every Monday I would not show up for three weeks in a row cause I'd always get to Sunday and have no idea what to write my script on and I'd just sleep, the guy who did the class messaged me about my absences and on the fourth week I decided I'd have to show up and told myself I'd write the script on the bus. I ended up reaching college empty handed and there was a gas leak and we all got to go home, I realised how far ahead everyone was that day and made a script for the next week, if I had shown up empty handed and the class had been on I would've been fucked
Lucky, my subs would just give me the test if the teacher wasn’t there
“The philosopher Didactylos has summed up the alternative hypothesis as ‘Things just happen. What the hell.’”
Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
GNU Sir Terry
I am reading Hogfather for the first time, its awesome to see it in the wild.
That was the first thing that popped into my head when Red started talking. I was wondering if someone would beat me to it.
Yesss, I feel like a lot of Terry Pratchett books have these random events, but it feels seamless because the characters react to it in ways that make sense or call back to how this is or isn't following common tropes with a little twist. Its like the suspension of disbelief that is ingrained in the very Discworld itself, so that deus ex machinas are expected (like the 1 chance in a million that is 100% guaranteed to work) so the characters themselves will go out of their way to try and make them happen, like in Guards! Guards!
Its just fun, is what I'm getting at lol
@@emsam3457 Is Sir Terry a coreutil or does he come in a separate package?
I never realized how often the reverse happens in stories, and it doesn't even register as a plot convenience. Villains getting lucky breaks feels way more natural. Maybe I'm too negative!
I would say it is more like what Red said. We expect bad things to happen to heroes in order to make a story interesting so we give much more of a pass on when random bad stuff happens. This isn't always the case though. Probably the biggest criticism of the anime Code Geass was that the main character's mind-control power turned on by itself while he was telling his half-sister about his mind control abilities using the example of "killing all the Japanese" resulting in a brutal massacre that kicked of the first season finale. Sure there were some hints that his power was becoming permanently active, but most people were unimpressed at how contrived and stupid that came off as.
@@toddclawson3619 Glad I'm not the only one who didn't like that. It was contrived, there was very little buildup, and in the end, it barely changed anything about the story. Lelouch's geass never acted up like that again, the story was basically reset to a status quo, nothing happened. In fact, in the classic manner of bad plot twists, I'd say it made the story substantially less interesting than it could have been with Euphemia still alive.
@@sayerglasgow115 Yep. It would have been a little better if he couldn't look at people anymore for fear of accidentally geassing them forcing him to constantly hide his eyes which would certainly make his civilian life much more difficult, but then CC made contact lenses that just fixed the problem.
You are also right about Euphemia. She was seen as a good, but naïve person and yet was the one to throw the biggest wrench into Lelouch's plans just by sincerely seeking a way improve the lives of the Japanese citizens and make them more equal to Britannians. It was honestly a massive screw you to Lelouch's "The end justifies the means" philosophy and even he agreed that she was the better person because of it.
I think killing her still could have worked well, but it should have been done by someone else without geass. Someone assassinating her at that ceremony could have still lead to the massacre and uprising due to the soldiers being quick to assume it was an Eleven that did it and start shooting into the crowd. Then there would also be the consequences depending on who the assassin actually was such as if they were a member of the black knights or a Britannian that viewed Euphemia as a race-traitor.
@@toddclawson3619 What you said about her being such a strong counterpoint to Lelouch's ruthless, ends-justify-the-means philosophy makes me wonder if the real reason the author killed her is because she was making Lelouch look bad. Lelouch is really not a good person. He's arrogant, ruthless, controlling, and always does everything in his power to give people no option but to do what he wants rather than just trust people. In order for the audience to root for him, it needs to be clear that his way of doing things is the only way, or at least, that he's the only one who can change things for the better. We root for Lelouch not because he's good, but because the alternatives are worse.
But as long as Euphemia was there, Lelouch's actions no longer looked so necessary. Euphemia wanted the same free and equal world that he did, and she had the charisma, popularity, and political power to actually make it happen, and do so without the web of lies and blackmail and horrific loss of life that Lelouch's methods created. She could make all of Lelouch's immoral actions unnecessary.
What's more, I don't think it would be at all in character for Lelouch to stop doing what he does, even when alternatives exist. He's too egotistical to defer to her and let her handle problems her own way, he would insist on taking matters into his own hands using the only methods he knows, which inevitably puts them in conflict, a conflict that Lelouch would clearly be on the wrong side of.
Basically, her existence revoked Lelouch's ends-justify-the-means license to be an asshole while still being nominally a good guy.
@@toddclawson3619 I thought I'd be alone in bringing up the Euphemia Incident from Code Geass as an example of the inverse of a deus ex machina (a diabolus ex machina); I'm really glad I'm not alone.
The ultimate "bad writing advice has broken your brain" moment I've ever experienced was when I was talking to a friend about 2015 Best Picture winner "Spotlight", and they were annoyed that there was no foreshadowing for the 9/11 "plot twist".
Oof nooooooo! That is bad lol. I bet they were embarrassed after saying that lol.
9/11 Ex Machina
That's disconcerting and also hilarious
Well to be fair, there wasn't any foreshadowing when it actually happened either
@@saltysunflowersugar7826 thanks I choked on my cracker
One thing I also find helps smooth over the DEM is emotional or thematic relevance to the story. The theme of Jurassic Park is that nature is beyond human control, so "nature" (the T-Rex) saving them from a situation they could not escape themselves feels thematically relevant. "Technologically superior colonizers destroyed by native pathogens" also feels highly relevant to War of the Worlds.
As I've seen pointed out, the two coolest moments in the movie are "She stomps so loud you can see water ripple from a mile off" and "She appears behind you and the raptor in dead silence."
The problem with War of the worlds is that Earth is unlikely to be the only life bearing planet with deadly pathogens, so why couldn't the martians have anticipated it, and just wore a hazmat suit?
@@septagram9491 Probably for the same reasons the British Colonial Armies didn't.
@@RothAnim 90% of aliens in Animorphs just go completely nude, because clothes are dumb and it's weird that we invented them, so. I get it.
The first book the alien kid narrates in, he already has fleas. So.
@@septagram9491 A factor that people fail to count on is time in the interstelar travel and its consecuences. Once a time the aliens wiped disease from their society, in a few generations diseases were relegated to something that only appear in their versions of history books. Thousand year later disease wasn't a factor to count on when conquering other planets and any system to detect and combat them discarded long ago.
This is the first time I’ve heard the expression “Diabolos Ex Machina” and it is so nice to finally have a term for “The type of thing that would always seriously upset and frustrate me as a child to the point that my mom would have to turn off the TV.”
Equal narrative Bullshittery Now!!
Yeah, I don't know why Red said no one complains about Diabolos Ex Machina. I hate that trope more then the love triangle.
Those kinds of "heroes have gone through enough" deus ex machinas can be a really useful pacing tool in general. It can make the end of the story really drag if after the big climax the heroes have to resolve a big amount of smaller problems or have to still save themselves.
Yeah, at that point it kinda feels earned, maybe not so much because your heroes did it themselves, but because they basically managed to hold out until they could be rescued.
You know "hold off the zombies til the chopper arrives" kinda deal.
That's kind of how I feel with the usage of the eagles at the end of Return of the King. Frodo and Sam are beyond exhausted in every meaning of the word, but now they have to push themselves out of basically hell with little food and few means of defense. When Gandalf and the rest of the Fellowship arrive, it's a moment to cheer for.
Seriously. The level of not caring, even welcoming, a deus ex machina is directly proportional with the amount of "OH COME ON!" moments the heroes had to go through, for me. The more a character suffers, the more I'm willing to accept anything, no matter how contrived, that just gives them a break
@@floricel_112
Basically Going Merry at Enies Lobby in One Piece.
Like in the Lord of the Rings novels, where destroying the Ring and getting saved by the eagles wasn't even the end of Frodo and Sam's troubles. They also had to go back and oust Saruman from the Shire. Although, given how extremely long the theatrical cut of the last movie was _already,_ it's understandable why that version decided to omit the Scouring.
"T'was but a scratch!"
"It was an active volcano!"
Is one of my favorite bits of visual humor in an osp video ever which is saying something because the never really miss with that stuff!
That isn't visual humor though.
@@tortis6342 what would you call it then? Genuinely curious
@@hazelrosebrewin8324 Visual humor is a joke communicated only through visuals (sometimes with a caption). If you can remove the visuals or avoid describing them and the joke still makes sense, it's not visual humor, it's just a funny exchange.
@@tortis6342 yeah I was just trying to distinguish between the spoken jokes and the drawn/written ones. Thanks for explaining!
@@hazelrosebrewin8324 That makes sense. I can be a bit of a pedant sometimes.
3:08 Funnily enough, you can find a clip of an interview where Tolkien is asked why they didn't just fly on the eagles the whole way and his answer, word-for-word, is "shut up."
That's a joke video, Tolkien didn't actually say that. The creator even has a separate video explaining it's fake to clear any uncertainty.
They would have had to fight the Nazgul without an army beneath them fighting the ground troops... Yay, eagle pincushions?
Have y’all watched @DonMarshall27’s “The Unpredicted Party” series?
They’re playing a tabletop LoTR game based on an alternate universe where one of the Eagles actually DID try to take The One Ring to Mordor… but then the Ring corrupted the Eagle, and turned it into an evil bird overlord. 0.0
Yeah, the eagles are established (admittedly in the hobbit, not LoTR) to not care too much about non-eagle problems, and be very concerned about arrows.
They actually refuse to carry Thorin and Co. all the way to Mirkwood and instead drop them off near Beorn’s house because they don’t want nearby human farmers shooting at them.
@@atlasworldbuilder8246 why did the eagle wear the ring tho? Can't someone just ride on its back and take carry the ring instead?
Oh my God, Sokka randomly going into the Avatar state and wrecking shop as a big fish creature would be amazing
Well, they were couple, it wouldnt be entirely unrealistic tho get superpowers from his gf who just merged with an ancient spirit of moon and water.
Alternate timeline where Aang dies episode 2 and Soka becomes avatar
If Sokka was the Avatar he'd basically be a full shounen protagonist. He's already the smartest of the bunch, and also the funniest AND has a cocky attitude. He's already pretty much the de facto team leader. Sokka is the guy who has literally every gift and talent... except for the one that matters. If he had that too, he'd be the ultimate Mary Sue, self-insert, impossibly-cool-and-unstoppable mc.
@@luigivercotti6410 I'd say he'd be more like an isekai protagonist.
Why do Image someone in the avatar universe would make to do a play/movie based on that and will said it actually the “real history” by dubious accounts
A good trope you could talk about is "the All-Knowing Ancient One". that is when the protagonist has to get some useful piece of information from someone who is so all-knowing or ancient that they are the only one who knows it.
Ahh yes. The old man inside a ring
Ah like Dyus in the Shivering Isles Dlc for Oblivion
This kinda seems incredibly narrow
Tbf that's where we get John Constantine from and his main purpose in DC verse so I tend to give it a pass.
She kind of covered that in her immortals video
I think it was in the “all knowing immortal” section, or something like that
I like the subverted Deus ex Machina in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where Arthur Dent is suddenly distracted near the end of a long fall and quite completely forgets to hit the ground, and consequently discovers the ability to fly (at least until he remembers that gravity is in fact a thing and loses the requisite state of mind). It turns out that this is simply a part of the way that the universe works, that there are tourist attractions that use people with distracting opinions, actions, or anatomies to induce the needed state of mind at the needed moment, and that it is simply Arthur Dent's (and by extension the reader's) woefully provincial Earth upbringing that prevented him (and us) from knowing about it already.
In fairness, there was a character shown attempting that feat, earlier. It's just that he was very dumb and him constantly throwing himself at the ground was played off as a joke.
I think Aang combining with the ocean spirit is really cool and actually more consistent with the established rules than for the reason Red mentions here. In my last viewing of the finale I noticed that Aang together with the ocean spirit only become super powerful after the moon spirit died. We know that the two spirits are like Yin and Yang, 'push and pull', keeping each other in balance, so know that the moon spirit is dead, the ocean spirit becomes more powerful. So that's my interpretation of that scene, great video!
Also it results in F I S H M A N ! ! ! ! !
Yeah, If we're talking about Deus Ex Machinas (DEM) in Avatar I don't think the giant fish monster really counts as one. It's established in a way before and consistent with the rules. The series finale on the other hand has two DEMs combining. Both the lionturtle and the sharp hiropractic rock come out of nowhere. It's still awesome, and I totally don't mind it, but to be fair it's way more of a DEM than the season 1 ending.
La, the ocean, is forever being held back Tui, the moon. If this balance is ruined, La has nothing to hold him back, nothing that can stop the ruthless onslaught that the ocean can enact upon the world of Avatar. The reason why La manifests is because that is the consequence of Zhao's hubris, his arrogance towards nigh-divine beings. The balance has been uprooted, and now the ocean is enraged.
Only when Yue sacrifices herself to become the new moon, is La subdued. The moon pulls the ocean back, the balance between the two has been restored.
It has nothing to do with Deus ex Machina, and everything to do with the themes of Avatar.
Mybe not more powerful, but angrier and untrammeled. You had Push and Pull. Now you have just Push, and it shall Push foward untill all the fire fleet drowns for their crimes.
Dunno if it counts, but earlier in the season Aang becomes Roku to help the team escape from the temple. I guess that's part Avatar stuff, part resonating with Roku's spirit
13:35 "Sometimes, that random easy twist of fate enables really cool stuff, like a T. Rex!"
Polka will never die!
Y'know, I was gonna complain that Zombie Sue doesn't count, but setting aside the convenience of running across Butters in his one-man-band getup at an opportune time, Sue also earned Harry a boon from the leader of the Wyld Hunt.
@@boobah5643 Zombie Sue is a sub-D.E.M. as a convenient way for Harry to get around the law against necromancy to solve the problem.
Even that gets future retroactive, both deus ex machina-ness, and explanation, after Skin Game.
@@boobah5643 I think Zombie Sue counts as both "much foreshadowing" in that we knew how the mechanics of zombies worked already, we just weren't expecting it, and "rule of awesome" because, well, yeah. Also, Butters showing up when needed becomes a LOT more interesting when he becomes [spoiler alert]
a freaking KNIGHT OF THE CROSS in Skin Game. After all, "showing up when needed" is pretty much what Knights Of The Cross DO.
I feel there actually is one big reason for the Diabolus ex Machina to feel more acceptable: information asymmetry.
The audience expects to know most of the heroes' preparations and plots because it mostly shares their perspective. It is not surprising that the villains have lots of schemes, plots and preparations handy (especially if they are established as relying on smarts more than brute force) that the audience doesn't know about.
One interesting case of this happens in the Ace Attorney series where the protagonists have to, for spoilery reasons, actually go up against Phoenix Wright in court. Normally, when Phoenix is leading a case, you see everything from his perspective, including his thoughts - but not this time. And all of a sudden, he is no longer the goofy weirdo who spends 95 % of each trial just barely hanging on; you face the Turnabout Terror who is simultaneously prepared for every avenue of reasoning and more slippery than an eel.
"Deception is the root of all warfare", and all that. Any villain worth their salt will do their best to keep their cards close to their chest and spring the Diabolus Ex Machina's when the heroes aren't ready for it. If the Diabolus Ex Machina's never happened the audience would either need to be let in on the villains plans, or the villains have to be really bad at their job and and let the heroes peek at their cards before anything really bad happens. And anything can be a "villain" in a story, whether its nature or fate or an obvious baddy.
I feel like this relates to the trope “Unspoken Plan Guarantee,” where the plan is more likely to succeed if the audience is shown it, and vice versa. For example, if the heroes are planning a heist and the audience is explained the plan prior, it’s likely that the heist will go wrong, or turn out to be a trap because the villains had a plan of their own the audience didn’t know about. But maybe then, the heroes reveal a hidden backup plan they had that the audience wasn’t shown, which succeeds in getting them out.
Wait I thought Phoenix Wright was the protagonist?? I’ve never played an Ace Attorney game lol
@@MooneyBabbler He is the main protagonist, but not the only one. For the first three games he was the player character, but the fourth game instead starred a new character named Apollo Justice, while the fifth and sixth rotate between Phoenix, Apollo, and a new character named Athena Cykes throughout their stories.
@@MooneyBabbler The rival of the first game, Miles Edgeworth also gets the protagonist spotlight once or twice outside of his own games.
My biggest pet peeve is that people want every single thing that happens in the story to have a reason or being connected, coincidences aren’t allowed to happen because by definition, you can’t explain them. Coincidences are very real, but in fiction it’s often treated as “lazy” and that just annoys me. Like if Charlie wants to buy another chocolate bar and he needs five bucks and he finds them on the street? How convenient. He worked for those five bucks? That’s good storywriting. Both accomplish the very same thing and it’s the chocolate bar that’s important and not the money
I fully agree. This "connected logic" thing is quite frankly something pushed by "critiques" on the internet and other people to try and determine a formula for story telling.
Most often, these people aren't even going to see where the line is drawn and go by their experience with the media, which isn't bad, this is the goal somewhat, but the attempt of "objectifying" it is what makes me worried.
Especially since, by Roald Dahl’s own narration, Charlie is just LUCKY. I think people derive the criticism from the Gene Wilder movie, which tries to tie Charlie’s victory in the end into an aspect of his moral character, despite the fact that in most of Dahl’s books, that’s literally NEVER relevant
10:22 Whimsy powered rail gun sounds like a hilarious twist for a D&D campaign: The party is contracted by a mysterious fey court to help build a weapon that would have the power to defeat the BBEG. The fey need seemingly random mcguffins to forge what they imply is a magical staff that the leader of the group is supposed to wield in the climactic fight but they are deliberately mislead because the party is watched by the BBEG so it knows their every move so the only way for them to succeed is to keep them in the dark. When the the mcguffins are collected the fey give the party a staff that looks like what they were expecting the ultimate weapon to look like and when they go to the final confrontation, the BBEG's castle and army are obliterated with whimsy-powered orbital bombardment and the party faces the BBEG on even footing.
Heroes are tasked to retrive few McGuffins to create an "Javelin of Acceperation".
It's damage and range ineceres by 1 Damage and 1 feet for each 5 feet it moved during the turn it was thrown.
Okay, I'll put this here so you don't have to look it up in the thread. One time I was playing D&D with a friend, who as Dungeon Master felt sorry for me since an entire tribe of angry orcs was chasing my sorry, solitary ass. So he let me make a wish. And I prayed to my personal deity, "Send a dragon to smith my foes!"
So did he send a dragon?
Man, he didn't!
Instead this big iron bird came out of nowhere, and as it flew over a door opened in its side and something started spewing fire from inside, and wherever the fire pointed orcs got chopped into dog food. Then when all the orcs were dead, the bird dropped this strange metal box with a horn and a mouth into my hand, and the box said, "Puff the Magic Dragon at your service!"
"The easy hard stuff is left as an exercise to the protagonists"
This is where you are reminded that Red did mathematics in college.
This fact and the ability to conjure ideas like "the fairy core of engineers creating a Whimsey Powered Rail Gun" is why Red will forever be my favorite superhero. Move over Tony Stark and Batman.
@@JusticeStiles Would blue then be the sidekick? Or the opposite gender distaff counterpart?
@@georgethompson1460 I'm thinking more partner than sidekick. Red/Blue is somehow closer to Ironman/Black Widow than Batman/Robin in my mind. They are equally capable heros with complimentary skill sets rather than a Senior/Junior dynamic. Both are awesome in their own way and their combined skill sets make a team that is far more capable than either one alone, good as they may be solo.
And, with my deepest apologies for being pedantic, Blue would be a spear counterpart to Red if we went the opposite gender route given that Blue is male and distaff means female. Really sorry for the rant, can't help myself... :/
Cheers!
So is Blue the lancer? Or is Indigo?
@@enigmatic3194 wow, now you're making this really hard. I'm tempted to call Blue the Lancer, because I'm partial to Red's particular brand of awesomeness, but I feel like it would still be intellectualy dishonest. A lancer may be as capable as the hero, but ultimately is still a supporting character. If I'm honest with myself (and this really is just how I feel about it, your milage may vary) I have to count Blue as a co-equal. You ever read the comic Cloak and Dagger? Neither one is the lesser character; taken as a whole the stories are equally about both and they compliment one another as much as they contrast. That's the dynamic I'm working with here. But I still like Red better if only because I enjoy mythology just a shade more than history (really not Blue's fault, only Oversimplified even comes close to making history as entertaining). Indigo as the lancer on the other hand totally works.
Crap, I think I just realized I'm the first self-identified OSP fanboy? Not sure how I feel about that; I've never been an anything fanboy before. I'm strangely comfortable with it. This has taken a weird turn. :/
Also, bonus points to Enigmatic for applying tropes to a meta discussion of a trope talk. We go much further with this we may cause a fifty trope pileup.
The eagles aren't just sitting around waiting to pull Gandalf out of a tight spot. They are their own people with their own problems and, much like the elves and dwarves, are fighting their own war against Sauron. They only help out in the story when shit happens in their front yard, they have a personal stake in the outcome, or the Lord of the eagles owing Gandalf a favor (which plays out once as settling the score, and once as an act of friendship in an hour of need) They aren't summonable mounts they're an autonomous people!!
Arent they manwes emissarys who have to keep watch at the Walls of night to make sure Morgoth doesnt sneak back into reality? Or am i remembering that wrong?^^
@@datzfatz2368 that might be the eagle afterlife? Or like their original purpose but with the fading of the old powers of the world they like men elves and dwarves diminished and became more normal over time lol idk I forget the specific lore but that definitely has something to do with it lol I just meant as far as their purpose in the Story tho
@@datzfatz2368 They're the messangers and spies of Manwe, keeping an eye on all the big threats. They spied on Morgoth, Numenor and Sauron. They apparently all left Middle-Earth after the War.
There's also the fact that the Lord of the Rings was a *stealth* mission. Flying into the heart of Satan's empire on earth on the back of semi-demigods (who like Gandalf would have likely been corrupted by its sheer presence over time) isn't exactly subtle.
Yep! And the "why didn't the eagles just air drop the Ring" argument always drives me NUTS because it completely ignores the fact that until AFTER the ring was destroyed, they would've just gotten caned by the Nazgul, Sauron's very effective air interdiction force! IIRC, the in-book reason they're able to rescue Frodo & Sam at all is that the fellbeasts and their riders had just been destroyed by the combined disruption of Sauron's power & eruption of Mt Doom triggered by the ring's being dropped into it...?
I never really thought of the giant eagles in Tolkien's work as a Deus Ex Machina. To me, they seemed more like the counterpart to Smaug: sentient but very nonhuman beings with their own agendas, whose interaction with the humanoid and humanoid-focused powers could skew events, especially at critical junctures. Smaug was attractive as a potential ally to Sauron, the eagles were attractive as an ally to Gandalf, because they tended toward the same general end of the moral compass (Smaug to evil, cruelty, oppression; the eagles to nobility, freedom, courage). But neither could truly be controlled, counted on, or enlisted. Their interests and attitudes were just alien enough to the humanoid races that there was no way to be certain if they'd be willing to act, or what they would do if they did.
The Ents are similar, as well, though in a more neutral stance: they generally refused to engage at all unless their specific interests were mucked with ("Some of these trees were my friends. A Wizard should know better!!!")
I kinda love how your explanation of how they're a textbook example of the old "the gods descend to help the protags when they feel like it" version makes it not a deus ex machina
Heck, you roughly paraphrased how Narnia characters tend to talk about Aslan, who is literally Jesus ("he is not a tame lion" and all that)
@@ExeloMinish I think you misread. What I said was that the characters' natures explained and defined their actions. They are known quantities within the story and involved in the decision making of other characters. Gandalf allies himself with the dwarven reclamation of the Lonely Mountain because he's concerned about Smaug, not dwarven territorial claims. Saruman's disregard for the Ents and Huorns near his tower has a predictable result. Far-wandering Gandalf has a known allegiance to the Great Eagles that make them likely, though not guaranteed, to do him an occasional favor.
They may in some sense fit the definition of a deus ex machina, but what I said was they never *felt* like one to me when I was reading the books. They didn't seem to come out of nowhere, and their motivations seemed knowable.
As for comparing me to C.S. Lewis: that's just mean. And nauseating.
The eagles are actually a completely literal example of a Deus ex Machina. They answered directly to Manwë Súlimo, the leader of the pantheon of gods in Middle Earth cosmology, and every action they took was directly ordered by Manwë himself. Manwë, meanwhile, acted always benevolently and always in accord with the will of Eru Ilúvatar, the creator deity who is a direct analogue of the monotheistic God of Christianity. If the eagles swoop down to save someone, it is very much God Himself saving that person.
That's why Tolkien used them as sparingly as possible: because their actions threatened to move agency away from the protagonists and over to God, the ultimate author of history who needs no additional writing credits. He did want them in the story to show God pressing His thumb upon the scales, but not so much that the weight the characters themselves added meant nothing.
That said, there are also good reasons in-universe for the eagles themselves not to do everything. For all that they represent God's will, they are not themselves perfect beings. They are still prideful and would not happily complete errands that others could complete. They're also not immune to the effects of the Ring, and they would be particularly terrible should they fall to the Ring's influence. Finally, they could not have plausibly reached Mount Doom while evading Sauron's notice. The whole plan relied on Sauron's inability to conceive of the idea that anyone would want to destroy his Ring rather than use it, but if there were anything in Middle Earth who could possibly put that fear into his heart, it would be reports of the Eagles of Manwë making a beeline for the one place on the planet where the ring could be destroyed.
It's also worth noting that the five Wizards themselves were also Maiar spirits made manifest as old men, sent by the the Ainur pantheon to Middle-Earth to help counterbalance the influence of Sauron (who was also Maiar, but turned evil). The Wizards were given specific instructions on how to go about their efforts, helping just enough so that the denizens of Middle-Earth had a shot against Sauron without fully steering the ship themselves. Manwë personally sent Gandalf.
Of course while the Eagles stayed aloof, the Wizards integrated themselves into Middle-Earth and as such largely failed in their task. The Blue Wizards went east long before the events of The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings and at best faded into obscurity (Tolkien mused that they may have set themselves up as cult leaders), Radagast the Brown lost sight of his task and took to caring only for beasts, and Saruman the White became power-mad and made his own play for sovereignty over Middle-Earth. Of all five Wizards, only Galdalf the Grey stayed on task, and even he spent probably too much time indulging in extracurriculars.
That is a very apt description, but it doesn't make them less of a deus ex machina, just a very well integrated one. Lore-wise, you're absolutely correct, but while it justifies and explains what they do in the plot, from a storytelling perspective, their intervention is still a deus ex machina. As explained in the video, there's a difference between a deus ex machina and a poorly explained or integrated plot piece. The fact that they literally swoop in unpredictably (for the audience) and save the day makes them a deus ex machina. It's a narrative concept, not one of lore.
People allying solely based on moral compass is not very realistic itself though.
Usually just with whoever is useful to them or consistent enough to trust.
One of my favorites is from JoJo's Bizarred Adventure Part 2 because of the awesome. Yeah, Kars being defeated by being launched into space by a volcanic eruptions, not to mention Joseph surviving that, is a bit of a stretch. It does get some foreshadowing though, and Joseph trolling Kars by claiming he planned the whole thing is just gold. It's all about presentation.
The thing is that Araki didn’t need to say that he got lucky. He very much could’ve planned it if things went a little differently. But honestly it’s way funnier to say Joseph got lucky.
And it was all in character
The fact that joseph won by luck and the fact that kars lost to fate
Come to think of it, JoJo gets a ton of deus ex machinas. Star Platinum stopping time, a convenient ambulance, Polnareff showing up in Italy with an extra-special Stand arrow. Plenty of stuff just happening at the right place and the right time.
@@MK-dr7dx They don’t call it Star AssPullatnum for nothing
@@MK-dr7dx One thing I find interesting about the arrow is that the Deus Ex Machina is that Polnareff has the arrow, but it still takes a lot of pain to get to the arrow and then get the arrow for the win
"Sometimes, the audience just wants to see the W" is such an eloquent way to tell someone when to use a DEM. Awesome advice!
But the audience also want it to feel earnt, you don't want them to win without it feeling earnt.
@@Eas697 That's the beauty of it. An audience doesn't want to see that W until the character(s) earn it.
@@BraveryBeyond And when they do earn it, there's a thin line emotionally between an incomplete W and the worst L
Small clarification: The aliens' lack of immunity to Earth's diseases in The War of the Worlds is only an unexplained deus ex machina in the movies. In the book, written from the perspective of a survivor of the invasion writing his account of the event years later, the anatomy of the aliens and how they were exposed to Earth's diseases is fully covered.
This is often the case in movie vs book versions of a story, simply because books have more space/words to work with. Limitations of the medium, etc etc
Indeed. When I read the book and, when I got to the point where the Martians all died from human diseases, I certainly thought it was anticlimactic, but I could definitely see everything that led up to it; H. G. Wells did a really good job setting it up.
Yeah. Explaining it in the movie would feel like boring exposition used to justify bs the writer wrote.
There's also a version where the "common cold" was the cover story, and what actually took them out was a bioweapon synthesized from every known human disease by the evil shadow government agency... who, to the horror of our heroes, had no problem killing every human in a mile radius too and just lying about it later, playing multiple sides of the trope at once :-)
6:25: No, that makes no sense.
People literally call-out how little sense it makes
for Aliens to know nothing about the Planet
they observed and invaded.
The Fairy Godmother contracting the Fairy Corps of Engineers to build a siege railgun is my new favorite thing
The whole concept of “the heroes talking about their plan on screen will always lead said plan to fail“ is hilariously lampshaded in Deathly Hallows Part 2:
Harry: Hermione, when have any of our plans actually worked!? We plan, we get there, all hell breaks loose!
Same as McGonigal saying: "Why is it that when something happens it's always you three?"
(Although I think both quotes originated from the movies)
Just remember the words of master thief Len Snart: "There are only four rules you need to remember: Make the plan, Execute the plan, Expect the plan to go off the rails... Throw away the plan!"
HP is God Teir
@@gracequach6769 Always has been, always will be :-)
@@Hallows4 I’m so used to that trope when a party I was dming for made a plan that than went perfectly to kill the big bad guy I was genuinely thrown off 😂
Re: Tolkien's eagles
They appear when someone's actions have earned their intervention. Gandalf healed the Lord of the Eagles, who leads the rescue of the Dwarves. Radagast honestly delivers Saruman's message to Gandalf and does as Gandalf asks to send word to his bird friends in good faith, therefore Gandalf is rescued. The host of the west makes the hopeless journey to the Black Gate in selfless sacrifice, therefore the eagles aid them. Sam and Frido see the quest to the end, therefore the eagles rescue them when there is literally no other salvation. I think Tolkien used them judiciously and well.
The eagles also show up when playing out the alternative would be kind of boring. Like imagine if Frodo and Sam missed the entire denouement because they were walking back from Mordor on foot.
While I definitely agree that the Eagles were used well, and I agree that the latter two are pretty spot on, Ratagast wasn't in the book so -in the book- the eagles do kinda feel like they came out of nowhere. In my opinion, the original scene works as a deus ex machina in the beginning *because* it prevents the eagles being as much a deus ex machina in the climactic war. It's "hey, these people who helped out earlier are helping out again!" instead of "wait what there are *giant eagles?*"
@@coin0matic I believe the Radagast example was talking about the rescue from Sauraman in LotR, the bit where they swapped him out for a moth in the movies.
And aren't the eagles like their own people? They aren't some summoning mount, they are autonomous and CHOSE to aid when they did.
Tolkien also introduced the Eagles by stating that there were certain places where it wasn't safe for them to fly. The fact that Gandalf healed their chieftain from an arrow wound shows that.
"There is a difference between the fairy godmother giving the hero a magical sword, and the fairy godmother contracting the fairy corps of engineers to blast the evil emperor's doom castle with a whimsy-powered railgun."
I actually kinda really want that now. It sounds incredible.
I did not know how much I wanted to see a whimsy-powered railgun until watching this video. 😊
I'm a DM and I was about to accidentally TPK my players with an encounter I hadn't balanced properly and it occurred to me that the cleric's familiar was secretly a goddess so I resolved my plotline with a literal deus ex machina
“Hoooo boy no one tell Anakin about that one” honestly killed me XD it was even derived from the lights side of the force too to add insult to.. *Coughs* injury. I think Anakin has had enough burning. Lol
Nah - roast Anakin ruthlessly, because he’s an idiot for not bothering with Force Healing or just goddamn basic medicine, and instead jumping headfirst into “power” from the Dark Side.
I remember being in the theatre watching Promare. And just the howls of laughter from the audience once the mech got its name. God I love studio trigger.
I just recently watched Promare with my friend, and when Deus showed up I was fucking dying
I FUCKING LOVE PROMARE!!! I was just about to comment on the LITERAL Deus Ex Machina lmfaoo
Doctor why did you choose us ?
I didnt choose you, you literally crush into my lab.
But would it happend if we didnt ???
I dont know, the world would be doom i guess
I loved that part because it was basically studio trigger going "it's not important where this robot came from, just roll with it and let's get on to the climactic fight scene."
And we all said "right on!" and shoveled popcorn in our mouths.
I was literally just discussing this trope with mom. I'm now checking my windows
You should check the walls instead
Red knows all lol
The rats hear your every thought
Oh don’t be silly they’re not outside your window…
*They’re in your walls they’re in your walls they’re in your walls they’re in your walls*
@@tommydoez *Do not disturb the rats in the middle of their worshipp*
Ok . . . now I really want to see a story constructed where a whimsy-powered railgun is both possible and employed.
Although, having watched Care Bears, an emotion-powered charged particle beam is already apparently a thing.
Also, DC's various Lantern Corps rings are Deus Ex Machinas in the form of fashion accessories.
Shout-out to Brandon Sanderson. Make a Whimsy powered railgun.
If you know about the Shards and don't get this, look it up. If you don't know about the Shards (not Shardblades, scoff, kid stuff) read more Cosmere.
Now I'm thinking about Black Mage from 8-Bit Theater. He shoots his enemies with the power of love.
"Love is the most powerful force in the universe, and this spell focuses it into a concentrated beam. Every time I cast it the divorce rate measurably increases."
My Little Pony taught me that friendship is a great weapon
I'm just remembering The Phantom Tollbooth, where almost saying a word lets you catching it in your mouth, then drop it into a cannon in a world of silence to shoot a hole in a wall and allow sound back in general.
@@rurihime4965 friendship is magic!
One of my favorite Deus Ex Machina moments was in a 1942 Dick Tracy comic strip. The evil and now forgotten villian Jacques dropped Dick down a caisson at a bridge building site and then used a bulldozer to push a large boulder down the hole. The caisson narrowed slightly so the boulder was stuck in the wet clay but kept sliding slowly lower and lower. There wasn't any way for Dick to get out and even if his friends showed up and tried to dig him out it would just release the boulder and crush him.
Chester Gould, Dick Tracy's creator was stumped. He couldn't figure out any way to get Dick out of this mess. So he drew a strip where the artist's giant hand came down and pulled the boulder out.
His syndicator rejected the strip and told him to either find another solution or just end the strip. So Gould finally came up with another solution. Dick discovered that the bottom of the hole was covered with planks and he could hear workmen's voices. It turns out that the caisson was really a ventilation shaft for a tunnel that was being dug at the same time the bridge was being built. He shouted at the workmen who ripped out the planks and pulled him into the tunnel just as the boulder crashed down.
man I want the version where the literal hand of the author shows up
The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be consistent
As said in CxG "Real life doesn't make narrative sense"
Fiction becomes more inconsistent the more questions are asked and truthfully answered, though it might seem more consistent on a smaller scale.
Reality becomes more consistent the more questions are asked and truthfully answered, though it might seem more inconsistent on a smaller scale.
Fiction has to 'feel' consistent
TRU LMAO
To be fair so does reality, that's kinda how science figures stuff out, reality simply doesn't need an audience to perceive it as such
“No! It can’t be! How did you get back here before us!?”
“Uh…um how did we Kronk?”
“Well you got me. But as you can clearly see it doesn’t make any sense.”
This is Deus Ex Machina, Emperor’s New Grove style.
Technically wouldn’t that be a diabolus ex machina?
@@emblemblade9245 Yep
Very glad to hear i am not the only one who loves the E's new Groove as it simultaneously uses and pokes fun at every plot cliche ever!
The opening about how so much stuff we don't or can't know effect every moment of our lives makes me think of Douglas Adams' work. He just chose the random stuff instead of the moment saving stuff
One fun thing about this trope is I've noticed Anime culture does it incredibly well. They love their lightly foreshadowed power boosts or moves you couldn't possibly predict. Hell, most of my personal favorite examples of this actually come from Bleach, late in the arrancar arc they set up basically a gun rack of chekhov's guns that all fire off in quick succession. Most of which simply getting cooler or smarter as you go rather than feeling more contrived.
For anyone who remembers how aizen was actually defeated, you know exactly what I'm talking about. They'd laid out every chess piece on board in front of us and we didn't even know it was happening until the end.
looking at demon slayer, the most we get before the hinokami kagura is "tanjiro was a charcoal burner" (and maybe the black sword thing but they said the colors are just superstitions and we know that any sword color can do the spoiler, not just the black one) and the rest of the series drops lore explaining why and how this works and makes sense in universe.
"Whimsy powered railgun" *adds to notes for next D&D campaign*
Fey engeneering, where three giggles in the wrong direction is difference between life and turning into taste of blue.
I have come to kick ass and grant wishes
*load HL-71 glitterizer
And my party wishes to kick ass.
Inter dimensional ballistic glitter bomb
misaka mikoto railgun
Invasion of the summer court
4:34 I just have to say, I love the image of an angel appearing to Columbo and him just not reacting at all except being mildly disgruntled because it may tamper with the crime scene. I can think of nothing more fitting.
GUS MEME: You love the angel because she's part of a joke about Columbo. I love the angel because she's very pretty. We are not the same.
Classic Deus Ex Machina that helps the villian: Izma and Kronk getting to the lab before Cuzco and Pacha. Man that movie was amazingly self-aware!
"By all logic, it doesn't make any sense."
I loved the Deus X Machina in Promare because it was basically studio trigger going "it's not important where this robot came from, just roll with it and let's get on to the climactic fight scene."
And we all said "right on!" and shoveled popcorn in our mouths to watch the cool giant robot fight with a banging soundtrack.
“A individual person’s life experience may seem narrow and uneventful”
That’s actually true for my life
I expected entertainment not a personal attack🙃
hence why there's so many people who respond to totally reasonable life stories with unreasonable disbelief. I've seen so many stories where people in the comments react to something with "sure, and then the whole bus clapped" when the story in question is as mundane as "I quit my job on the spot because my manager is an ass"
Keep an eye out for cosmic entities blindly rampaging through your life path.
lucky.
you are special and have value 😊
Nice message of the day: sometimes good things can just happen and we should accept them instead of questioning everything good that happens to us (like a t-rex, you don't question the t-rex)
Unless it starts talking, then we can question it.
@@Azmodeus87 don't be silly, it was the velocirapter that talked
@Eddy R Alan
Questioning the t-rex is like tickling a sleeping dragon, you just shouldn't do it unless you are really good friends with them (and hard to kill).
I don't mind the trex suddenly saving the day. I just wanna know if there was an opening in the building somewhere big enough for it to get in without a single person or raptor noticing.
A well executed solver climax: warrior cats darkest hour, the main character and the villain have been building up to a climactic final battle for 4 whole books, right when you think this battle is gonna unfold, the villain goads his newly requited scary minions and their boss kills the main villain completely unceriomoniously, making him the new threat. It’s some good shit!
Man it's been a long while since I read those books, my school library had them and I was hooked from the start.
With this part in particular, was the scary minion boss the same guy who, if I remember correctly, ripped out all 9 lives of the villain who writhed and spasmed and his lives left him? Or was that someone else?
@@cypherdastro8105 that's the one!
god it was so fire!
That plotwist was absolutely amazing when I first read it!
I don't know in Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back at the beginning of the movie Ben Kenobi communicates with Luke as a force ghost and I think it is a pretty basic assumption to say that telepathy is a lesser form of that so it makes sense that Luke could maybe learn it. Also it could just be implying that Leia as force abilities because she basically just did what Luke did when he could sense that something wrong was happening to his friends on Cloud City. I just don't think that what happened there was too huge of a jump in logic to realistically happen with what we knew at the time of the movie.
Plus, it was established in A New Hope that Force-Sensitive individuals can sense other Force-Sensitive individuals, as Vader senses Obi-Wan immediately upon the Millennium Falcon entering the Death Star.
Ben is also telepathic in ANH - 'Run, Luke' he says, as a disembodied voice after he dies.
The Force is an energy field that connects and binds all living things. It makes sense to me, at least, that telepathy and supernatural awareness are its main powers.
I highly doubt that logic was intended or even thought of. Star Wars is effectively an old, torn bag of extremely boring plot devices that's remained popular due to nostalgia and lightsabers.
@@connermckay4012 I'd say it's also popular based on the strength of the actors' charisma in a few places. There's a REASON Han Solo got so many knockoffs...
@@connermckay4012 ah so since you don't like the IP, the story had no thought put into it and can be dismissed. You seem like a really fun person.
I really appreciate the self awareness of the writers to name that giant robot the Deus X Machina. I think that's hilarious
Thought on the eagles: The worldbuilding and themes actually give a convenient answer on why they couldn't taxi Frodo around middle earth. They know better than to ever, ever knowingly carry the ring.
Even then, air transport available to any of the other groups of heroes in those movies would be incredibly helpful.
@@grfrjiglstan I highly doubt those eagles are a match for the damn undead dragons that Sauron had flying for him. They liked Gandolf, but if they flew into Sauron’s business too many times, he’d have decided to target them outright to make them stop.
@@coltonwilliams4153 Even if they never flew into Isengard or Mordor (the only two places they did fly to in the movies) an aerial force would be an incredibly powerful asset - just ask the Ringwraiths.
People try to logically explain why they don't just solve everything, and it's all pointless. Tolkien knew it was a Deus Ex Machina, and so he set strict limits on how often they could be called on. Jackson knew it as well, so he called as little attention to it as possible. And that's _fine._ It's not a problem that they only show up three times when they'd be useful in dozens. There isn't a 20 page explanation for how Gollum followed the heroes out of Moria when they broke the only bridge, either. You don't have to worry about every little thing. If the story's good, that stuff can be papered over, and it is.
Given how powerful and convenient the eagles are, one under the ring's thrall *is* probably the ultimate nightmare scenario as far as possible hosts go, short of maybe Gandalf or another wizard (and even that's debatable). I guess maybe a dragon could be worse, due to having most of what makes the eagles scary plus armor, fire breath, and more limbs, but I don't know if any were left by the time of LotR.
I didn't see the ring mess with any other party member's mind. Frodo is in danger, everything else relies on orcs having utterly inhuman precision with their artillery.
I've always felt that the problem Deus ex machina cause in a story isn't that unexpected things never happen in the world of a story but rather that when telling a story it is obvious that since you as the storyteller know the story you will introduce the important things even if the characters don't know it. Like even if you're narrating something that happened to you in real life you never go completely linearly.
The trope name for what you described is known as " The Law of Conservation of Detail".
Unpredictability is so important to comedy, to fun/enjoyment but it can make things lack weight.
My favorite version of this trope is the "Minion having second thoughts" version. When done right, events that the audience has already seen are re-contextualized to show how they also screwed over one of the villain's henchmen, who is now willing to throw the heroes a bone as a way of getting back at their boss for screwing them over.
Rewatched Returns of the King last night, and the joy of the eagles showing up never fades. Pippin’s reaction sells it “ The eagles are coming!”
And I feel like the eagles fall into the “give the heroes a break already”, “helper deus ex machina “ , and “that’s awesome!!!” Categories
And they are also literally divine spirits send by the god of wind to help out the heroes so yeah^^ we Stan big bird gaming
I love Lord of the Rings too, but I am so irritated by the nonsence that Sam & Frodo are not instantly burnt to a crisp by the heat of the flowing lava.
@@michaeljohnangel6359 Bro there's a clip of a dude literally swatting molten metal with his bare hand. As ridiculous as it sounds, I don't think they'd die from being near it for the amount of time they were.
And from what the minute or so of Googling I just did, it appears that you are able to stand near certain types of lava flow for a short amount of time.
Throw in a little bit of classic "we want a cool shot" logic and it's not as ridiculous as one would assume.
@@michaeljohnangel6359 I was looking more for asphyxiation.
@@MonkeyJedi99 Yes, I almost added that too. Surely the burning lava would eat all the oxygen.
In fiction being realistic is neither as important as being internally consistent nor being properly built up. For example: it's realistic for a person to suddenly be sh0t by a random mugger; but if it happened to an important character(like in the Zero In manga where a super martial artist female cop got sh0t right after opening the door by a random guy), the reader will flip
Exactly. And sometimes people will ask for realism (the Nolan trilogy having Bruce’s body wear out within a few years) but flip when healthier approaches (eg healing from trauma when it negatively encroaches on life and moving on) are considered.
Sometimes you want the reader to flip, though. That's good emotional investment. Gotta sell it by writing it well, though. If you write it badly, you just killed a major character for nothing.
@@christopherbennett5858 My point was. Anything important needs some kind of build up or foreshadowing. The journey is more important than the destination. Also people were also pissed that he spend so much time not being Batman
Thought you were talking about the Dresden Files for a second.
@@Eshenaleros Exactly.
The only real time I’ve seen random acts of killing of big characters happen go well was Candy Ferocity in Pose.
However, with Candy, the random random death was more to reflect the issues sex workers and trans women faced as well as how the characters cope with such violent and horrific acts. In fact, she continues to appear throughout the episode and series after her death because she was always in their minds and thoughts. From survivor’s guilt to regret and the mixed emotions that come from unresolved grievances, it created a unique and very impressive story.
My favorite use of Deus Ex Machinas is in the band Gloryhammer that has a continous story throughout all its songs. Every album ends with a 10 minute song of the epic final battle between the protagonist Angus McFife and his allies against the evil wizard Zargothrax and the forces of evil. Every single one of these songs have a part where it seems like Zargothrax will definitly when, like when he nearly summoned an elder god. But every time a character called "The Hootsman" comes in, either out of nowhere, or with a new power up, like in when the elder god nearly was summoned it was revealed The Hootsman was all along a cyborg powered by a neutron star. The Hootsman then detonates, vaporizing the earth, along with the altar used to summon the elder god.
I'd also say tone plays a decent part too. In a more comedic story, audiences have already adjusted their set of expectations for the world because absurd things happen in this world. So a deux ex machina coming out of nowhere could be better received in that type of story because why not? So many other wild things have already happened. What's one more?
My favourite Deus Ex Machina ever is the one in Olive the Other Reindeer when Olive is tied up in the mail van, she finds a package labelled "To Olive, from Deus Ex Machina" and it has a pair of scissors which she uses to escape.
I was just thinking of that!!
Yeesssssss. Also nice icon lol
I didn’t really like that movie. I preferred Underfist.
ha guess i was too young to notice that.
Ohhhh what a great point on how the deus ex machina can give you the ability to see what your heroes will do in a truly hopeless situation without actually having to totally commit to the consequences of it.
My DM actually did this to great effect in a D&D game, we were all sure we were going to die. It didn't feel contrived or like he intentionally cornered us just to pull the 180, we just ended up with some enemies that had crawled out of the ground but we had actually encountered them multiple times over the sessions just never in these numbers. We were all grouped up in the middle panicking and trying all these different things that we normally wouldn't have done and it ended up being a really epic moment when we were saved, again by something we had encountered before I just weren't expecting at that moment. She HELPED us fight them, she didn't just pluck is out out of the hot water. Solving vs helping is a major difference I had never considered in how I perceived this trope.
we had a somewhat reversed experience with the similar setup. The party was about to get wiped by enemies then got saved at the last second by a cool NPC, who disapeared into the mist afterwards...
unfortunately, we are a ridiculously suspicious crew and we figured out almost immediately that the guy who saved us was Strahd, a.k.a. the evil vampire lord who is basically the end villain of our campaign. so the actual victory was immediately forgotten in favour of going to the nearest village to quiz the other NPCs about vampires in the area
"Diavolus ex machina" How is i never heard that one before? Sounds cool af. Also yes, the "realism=life sucks" strickes again
"It's no lazier than a diabolus ex machine that randomly screws our heroes over for quick and easy conflict." Those might be more accept in general, but every instance of that you mentioned reminded me of several instances of that exact situation that really annoyed me (some of which many people have praised) and maybe one that I liked, so it definitely isn't universal that they are more accepted. But I might be in the minority there.
I love the mental image of Soka merging with the ocean spirit to wreck ships
I imagine it would include him naming his attacks. FLYING KICKA-POW!
REGULAR-SHIP SLICE!
FEEL THE WRATH OF MY MOON SPIRIT GF!!
I honestly get unreasonable amounts of joy out of Red saying "So .... yeah..." at the end of these things. 😀
The scene of the Tyranosaurus saving the gang from Jurassic Park made me chucke. That was the first time I noticed a deus ex machina and my mom remembers that I was telling her "the T-rex saved them all!" at the top of my tiny lungs (I was 8 years old)
4:46 I love how PJO does the exact opposite of this by almost immediately throwing one of the toughest monsters at Percy with no help whatsoever
Deus Ex Machina and Chekhov’s gun are really just different ways of conceptualizing the basic storytelling principle of *set up* and *payoff.* If something is set up, it should pay off. If something pays off but it hasn’t been properly set up, it can feel cheap.
To me, the t-Rex at the end of Jurassic Park is phenomenal set up and payoff because *we’re all expecting to see the t-Rex again.* It was a massive part of the story earlier, and it wasn’t eliminated or dealt with in a permanent way, so of course we expect it to return. The trick that the movie pulls is getting us so invested in the escape from the raptors that we forget about what happened earlier in the movie. So then the t-Rex shows up, and we say “oh, of course!” Sure, it hasn’t been established that the t-Rex is in this specific part of the park or that it loves to eat velociraptors or anything like that, but that doesn’t matter. The audience understands that the t-Rex remains a factor in the narrative. It has been *set up.*
"Chekhov's rifle" often gets "mocked" by various alterations of MacGuffin, "red herring" and similar tropes which are used to create inverse or "anticlimactic" endings and plot twists. It obviously needs to be foreshadowed (but very very sneakily!) prior to its unveiling, but overall the proverbial "rifle" is not *that* universal and ubiquitous.
Even if Red suddenly got the Deus Ex Machina of laser eyes, hearing her continuously saying "Bzort!" whilst using said laser eyes would have been the most eye-opening development of her character.
Petition to name the high deus ex machina "Chekov's Rocket Launcher" as a TV Tropes subtrope of Deus Ex Machina.
Whilst the rule of cool can certainly give you some leeway (as it almost always does), my general thought is that there's no reason to rely on that; there's no reason why an incredibly cool Deus Ex Machina can't also be appropriately foreshadowed.
God: homer to do what your asking id have to turn back time
Homer: superman did it
God: fine ... DEUS EX MACHINA *clap*
My first thought as well! Also, random trivia, God and Jesus are the only characters in "The Simpsons" who have 5 fingers on their hands.
@@legomaniac213 homer: perfect teeth nice smell a class act all around
@@legomaniac213 literally one of the only Simpsons episodes I remember has Homer growing an extra (fifth) finger and everyone being very concerned about it
“Whimsy powered rail gun” is going in my D&D world now. Thank you
better than the peasant railgun
Shout-out to Brandon Sanderson. Make a Whimsy powered railgun.
If you know about the Shards and don't get this, look it up. If you don't know about the Shards (not Shardblades, scoff, kid stuff) read more Cosmere.
You raise a good point about people not caring as much about Diabolus Ex Machina
Counter-point: literally no one liked “somehow Palpatine returned”
That's a _very_ overt "hand of the author" situation. They clearly didn't know how to end the trilogy, so they just picked the laziest option available to them.
I think Bard is an interesting example of DeM from Tolkien, on one hand he just appears in the story to kill the dragon with no foreshadowing (I guess Smaug mentions that Girion's family fled in the previous chapter but that's about it), but on the other hand I kind of like how it a totally different character and not Bilbo, Thorin or Gandalf like one would expect it to be
It also helps that Bard winds up relevant in the fallout of Smaug's demise, IMO. (Edit) Which turns the rest of the book into an "out of the frying pan into the fire" scenario.
I think the low-foreshadowing version is my favorite version of this trope, because it provides a lot of dopamine and a lot of rewatch value if done well. Rewatching something and hearing a character off-handedly saying something about a side-hustle of theirs while knowing the results of that side-hustle are gonna help save the day in the end is just...*chef's kiss*
I guess those are more chekhov’s gun where it foreshadow in a blink and miss it or there in a background.
A fun version, if done well, is one that *seems* like negative foreshadowing initially, but turns out to actually be low or even *high* foreshadowing, just not of what you initially thought. We get told something is impossible, only for it to happen later, or that it's guaranteed, only for it to *not* happen, because the original statement was actually conditional in a way that was easy to overlook. In the moment you might go, "wait what the hell", but after thinking about it more and/or reading/watching/playing things again, you not only see the critical distinction was established from the start, but probably start seeing foreshadowing elsewhere of what was going to happen too. Often a *lot* of foreshadowing really, to the point that I think a lot of these aren't actually considered deus ex machinae except by people who don't think about them beyond their initial impression. (I think the amount of foreshadowing these usually have is due to the writers being understandably concerned about people feeling tricked or lied to, and to head that kind of thing off and make the twist feel less cheap they try to make sure there's plenty of things that set it up, even if you're unlikely to take notice of those things until after the fact.)
To add to the "coolness" factor, I think characterization or thematic kicks help as well. For instance, if your character is a pacifist and doesn't want to kill, a deus ex machina that allows that character to strip power from others will then 'fit' that character well. Yes, I'm thinking of a specific example. Also, literal divine intervention often does this in some way, I've come to believe?
Also, consider how 'chaotic' the environment is in as well and how the 'fog of war' is: a T-Rex can come out of nowhere but if everything is in a situation where anything can happen and all bets are off, having that sort of thing happen works better than in a more 'stable' environment.
Absolutely agree! That specific example of the pacifist character, he held onto his benevolent beliefs despite the odds and so was "rewarded" with the Deus Ex Machina (Talking about ATLA here), which feels thematically satisfying. Another example could be in Raiders Of The Lost Ark, where the Nazi's are "punished" with the Deus Ex Machina as a result of their hubris, it feels thematically satisfying because they oppose the good morals of respecting the historically significant relic
A few years ago I had an hours long discussion with my best friend where he held that the ghost army in LotR was terrible deus ex machina and I maintained that it was a vital and organic part of Strider's story and character development. Good times.
One of the funniest Deus ex Machina I personally recall was in Hellsing Ultimate where the villains are faced with the logistical nightmare of transporting an army of vampires across the ocean to London in which their leader instantly reveals a giant war zeppelin with the name plate Deus Ex Machina.
“The Fairy Corps of Engineers” needs to be a thing in more stories.
Working on it. -.^
That's just gnomes though
“Whimsy powered rail gun” I kinda want this on a shirt
With Whimsy the Aboleth.
Me too.
With Red’s art, it would be AMAZING! I’d buy that!
I love how often The Emperor's New Groove is used as an example.
"Mass Effect 3" has the unique (and narratively disastrous) situation where the Catalyst functions as a solver-type deus ex machina and a diabolus ex machina simultaneously. Up until the last five minutes of the trilogy the player still had the illusion of control with how their actions would impact the climactic battle to defeat the Reapers and the outcome it would have on the major characters and races we'd interacted with throughout the series. It was a pretty standard space opera setup with heavy implications Shepard wouldn't live, but it could have worked as long as the narrative and character writing around it were solid.
Instead, the Catalyst, the _literal creator of the Reapers and their cyclical extermination directive,_ hijacks the story at the last minute and forces a choice between three solutions that it seemingly made up on the spot. Choices that, when analyzed more thoroughly, play more into the outcomes the Catalyst has been working towards, which up to that point, have consisted of millions of years of committing galaxy-wide genocides like its a weekly item on their "to-do" list. In the last few moments, Shepard's agency in story goes from having tangible and believable input to meekly choosing which of the Starbrat's color-coded, galaxy spanning atrocities will conclude the trilogy.
It stills baffles me how badly Bioware's writing team fumbled the trilogy that close to the finish line. It makes "Game of Thrones" last few seasons look better in comparison and I'm still amazed the studio is still around after that disaster. Sure, its a husk of its former greatness, but its still hanging on seemingly by the skin of its teeth.
I will, in point of fact, die mad about it.
What's more interesting and hilarious to me is the sheer number of spinoffs and fan stories that hate this problem and decide to go for the idea of "giant gravity powered rail gun" that can fire things at light speed to solve it their own way.
My personal theory is that ME3's ending sucks because Bioware did it on purpose to follow through with theming the games on successive eras of sci-fi.
The first game very heavily based itself on the Space Operas of the '70s and '80s, the second game based itself off the grimmer, grittier '90s fare... which left the '00s for 3. And one of the main things sci-fi shows from that time had in common was disappointing and/or baffling endings. In a pre-GoT-S8 world, the two most infamous endings of the millennium were Lost and the BSG remake. On the "disappointing" end, Farscape and Stargate SG-1 got unceremoniously canceled and were given a miniseries and a couple of movies to wrap things up, respectively.
I admit the theory is partially borne from disbelief that the people who'd already managed to pull off an amazing tragic love story (if you romance Anders in DA2) that could very easily have been screwed up, especially since they were working with a ridiculously short deadline of 18 months (compared to the first and third games' 4+ years each), could screw up that badly without specifically aiming for it.
I think a large part of the ME3 problem is that by the time 3 games were done they player had made so many choices and interact in so many ways that making enough endings to acknowledge all of them was pretty much impossible, especially with the time they had.
Ah, the Ending-Tron 3000. What a shitty way to end an interactive narrative, and yet they still keep using it. Also featured in Deus Ex! Given the topic, I can't decide if that's ironic or not, but damn is it appropriate.
"god from the machine" is such a raw phrase
That sound like a title of a trippy sci-fi book
And hilarious when you consider it was basically “god from the crane” in its original form.
Who hopes Red talks about the “Self Sacrifice” trope, the “Demonized Character” trope, the “Collective Conscience” trope, the “Rules Of Nature” trope, or the “Losing the Moral High Ground” trope so she can call out the people who sent death threats and harassed Laura Bailey’s family
Omg what happened
@@sekinafi29 Judging by the tropes OP is connecting to, it has something to do with The Last Of Us & TLOU2. Laura voiced Abby in that game and let's just say, Chernobyl is probably less likely to kill you faster than the toxicity emitting from the two toxic lakes surrounding that controversial game franchise (TLOU2 specifically)
@@sekinafi29 Well, some people really didn't like the Last of Us 2, and the "controversy" centered around the character Laura played in that game. It's really stupid, and the people harassing the actors are also stupid.
Aren't the 3rd and 4th mgr songs?
@@eisgnom7383 they are
I just stumbled upon your channel looking up stuff. This is really well put together, thank you.
I’ve always heard the term, but never knew what it meant. Your videos are always so interesting.
4:11
*"Prioritize solving the Plot, over making sense within the plot"*
Oof, yeah that hit hard 🤧
I first learned about this concept when I accidentally put on the director's commentary for Toy Story 3. They discussed the it when they had a literal machine pick the toys up from the incinerator. But even then, that had mild foreshadowing with the aliens pointing it out as soon as they got to the dump.
idk how people feel about it as a plot device, like whether it was too convenient or whatever, but it works very well considering that the aliens revered the claw as a deity since the pizza planet scene in the first movie. it's very established in-world, you just don't expect it to show up right then, and when it does, it's literally the aliens using their machine-god to save the rest of the toys. it's brilliant imo
This is also a case of "giving the protagonists a break" since they were straight-up dead without them.
Toy Story 3 was sad enough as it was, they didn't need to have all the toys incinerated, too.
These videos have been so helpful to me in avoiding or actively giving in to tropes when I’m writing
The most satisfying deus ex machina I’ve seen was when Aang got his chakra realigned by banging his back against the wall
I feel like a big thing is that Fiction has to be more entertaining than Reality. Reality can sure be entertaining sometimes, but sometimes real events, especially random ones, are just *anticlimactic.* Realistic don't mean fun.
Which is where the really really cool stuff gets a pass. The awesome fun factor.
Realistic don't mean fun. I guess this is what the creator of Bahubali have in mind when they make the movie. Fuck realism, epic time
Agreed......Kinda
Realistic can be fun, but not really guaranteed to always be fun
"True, Robin. It was noble of that animal to hurl himself into the path of that final torpedo."
-Batman
0:59 It's funny but true. Sometimes reality is so wild that if it was a story or script, people would call it bad writing.
Like 2 months ago there was this event, a tournament where a complete underdog team who was not expected to do anything just went ahead and won the entire thing. Paired with actual anime level story lines that built up over 10 years, if this had been anything *but* reality people would have said that it'd be too unrealistic/convenient to all happen like this. It was unreal.
I've wanted to see an episode on this trope for a long time, and thankfully it's just as entertaining and informative as I thought it would be.