I don't experience learning words in a learn-review way. Rather for most words its like a sliding familiarity scale..You can't learn a word until you have reviewed it many times, reaquaint with it. You may have to learn it many times over. Some words I see once and learn them forever, while some words take years of reviewing and relearning. Its totally random. Anki is a great tool and I prefer to use it as a reminder tool 5 mins a day reviewing words without context rather than using it a deep learning thing, as it sucks up a lot of time to use that way.
I think all humans are like that in a way. However, I see learning as more the initial stage of acquiring the necessary knowledge to understand the sentence then reviewing is just increasing familiarity with said knowledge.
Hmm I hadn't heard of this idea that people will just repeat a simple phrase (or count to 10) to "warm up" a language. I am going to try this. I have studied a few languages and switching between them is often a huge pain. I wonder if this is something that can work mid conversation lol. As for Anki I've heard this advice that you need to learn it first then just review it but for language (and probably a lot of things) if I check a dictionary I pretty much immediately understand the vocabulary and the sentence. If not now I can ask Chat GPT and it will break down the sentence and this is super helpful. And I now know and understand it. But I will also very likely forget it. If I put it into Anki, I am still likely to forget it and struggle with it and Anki will force me to review it to the point of ad nauseum. And then eventually I give up on the deck and delete it and start a new one. I tell myself it will be different and even if it is not different the reviews still helped my target language. But some other RUclipsr does something that I am trying out and it seems like a good method for people like myself whose forgetting curve doesn't seem to fit any SRS algorithm. Instead of marking everything wrong when you get it wrong, mark it right and let Anki space out the reviews without forcing you to review the same material to death and give your short term memory an intense workout. Then when the next review is 2 months if you feel like you need more review (IE get it wrong) you can then mark it wrong and let Anki reset the reviews so you see it a lot again but at increasing intervals etc and it shouldn't feel like torture.
Just some tips, in case they may help you. 1) You can change how many time you need to click "good" on a card during a review session before it gets scheduled to the next time. For example, if I learn a new card or click "wrong" on some card, I will meet this card several times and need to click "good" before it becomes learned. You can change it in the deck options, "Learning steps" and "Relearning steps". Maybe if you need to review it more times during one day it can help with memorizing in longer term? 2) Did you try FSRS algorithm?
@@AnonymousPerson-cu7yz Yeah the FSRS algorithm does seem better at pushing cards that I know out faster giving me more time to drill the ones I don' know but it has the same issue for me which is trying to force me to relearn stuff the moment I forget it. I know the idea is to remind me of the meaning right before I'm going to forget it but the truth is it's just making me relearn it the moment I forget it. I've experimented quite a bit with the steps option in Anki. It gives so much control I love it. I created a series of steps for my new deck going all the way up to 2 months lol - I'm using the old algorithm since FSRS doesn't like steps 1D or higher.
@ I guess you’re getting me thinking about some things I can do to adjust the settings and basically use Anki as intended and mark stuff wrong when it’s wrong lol. I still think this method is a pretty good one though. I used it for a few weeks before and just because I forgot a word or sentence and didn’t mark it wrong did NOT mean I would get it wrong the next time it came up. I would say it’s actually got about 1/3 of the words I had marked wrong right the next time despite marking them wrong and increasing the interval and not even doing the extra review you typically do the same day for words you get wrong. Why did I stop? I took a trip to Asia and of course with my trip coming up I was super motivated about short term gains over long term gains to learn the most possible for my up coming trip. And then I never went back to this method afterwards. It being the new year and all I’m rethinking things.
@@paulwalther5237 oh, no, if it works for you then it works for you, it's all good, absolutely no pressure from my side. You can't use it wrong if it works for you :) I just shared a couple of things I thought may or may not be helpful for you just in case you didn't know about them. Sorry if it sounded like I am criticizing or something, it wasn't my intention at all.
It’s pretty rare for me after I’ve studied and practiced something a little bit, that I’ll forget it by the next day. I’ll definitely be very slow and unsure by the next day but I wouldn’t have completely forgot it. If I do I generally take that as a sign I didn’t practice enough on the first day and I need to revisit it. However everyone has different abilities, short comings and strengths so what I suggested probably won’t work for you.
Thank you for making the particular video, you're absolutely right! It turns you, we're taking a lot of things for a given that may not be so. What about things that you already kind of know in your target language but they're pretty vague and lack automation? Especially with structures, I feel I know them and would be able recognize them, but they don't come out smoothly. Great background, by the way.
something is vague and lacks automation I make more cards around that particular structure. Eventually everything will be automated with time but you can help it along but creating more cards to practice it more.
Learning/ reviewing are kind of intertwined. Where reviewing is a part of learning. Like part of "learning lines" is repetition, memorising, rehearsals, going over again and again (aka review). Maybe it would be better to think if it more like discovering new things vs practising to perfection already known things. As both are aspects of learning but more clearly delineated. Thoughts?
I think he's using "learning" in a more narrow definition similar to what linguists/academicians seem to use, e.g. with respect to CI - comprehensive input - where "acquiring" is contrasted with "learning". Many commenters try to point out 'acquiring' is 'learning', but when the academicians use these, they have different meanings.... 'acquisition' is more passive and care free, without thought, whereas 'learning' is a more direct, purposeful and thought engaged activity.
As @atoms.channel mentions, I’m using it with a specific meaning :) The problem is to different people these terms can have different meanings which is why I tried to draw the gun analogy.
I have anki set up to only show me new cards after I have reviewed all the cards due that day. This also helps me ensure that I don't overload myself with new cards. If I review all the cards that I had today and feel like it was too much studying for one day, I won't review a bunch of new cards that will pile on to the reviews I have to do tomorrow. In the beginning, it is super easy to throw yourself deep into learning with a bunch of new cards. But if you make that a habit, all those extra reviews will pile up too high once you get mid-way through the deck.
That’s not a bad strategy either. Although I do like my new cards to be randomly spaced between old ones. Something about the randomness of their placement makes me weirdly excited for discovering the new cards lol.
I think there's a good extension to this metaphor about combat experience where you master the tools. Learning is a slightly ambiguous / controversial term, so it's good to explain what you meant.
do you like re - watching/reading/.. stuff? Can be boring but after the 3rd or 25th time when u understand most of it, it feels good. Or mostly sentences / words?
I might rewatch somethings but I generally find it too boring unless it’s really engaging. For example there are some let’s plays in Chinese I’ve rewatched a few times because they’re fun.
I listened to this while doing something else so sorry if I missed it, but what exactly do you mean by keeping review separate from learning? If you learn some stuff then put it into Anki and review it the next day, you'll inherently forget some of it and have to break your flow (whether that be looking up the word in a dictionary, looking at the sentence translation in Anki itself, etc). Do you just mean that it's best to set Anki to show all your reviews first, then new cards after?
Learning is the acquisition of knowledge necessary to perform the skill while review is practicing that skill. You may sometimes forget aspects of the knowledge necessary to perform the skill but that can be rectified when encountered. If you completely forget everything in a card you should probably go back and break down that knowledge into smaller chunks.
Hey, I cover that in my Grind video here: The Grind | How to ACTUALLY Learn a Language ruclips.net/video/yPeXL_jp4E0/видео.html If that doesn’t have what you need let me know.
@Evildea thanks man, I've just watched the video. I have a few questions, the session when you grind your sentences is the same for your immersion time, or do you count your review time as your immersion time? In my case, as a beginner, where should I start grinding? I usually watch comprehensible input videos and vlogs (for Chinese speakers), and I also have some graded reader books.
When you start noticing a pattern in your CI sessions that means it’s probably time to create sentences out of it so you can grind it. During a CI session I fight take 6 individual sentence templates and create 50 cards out of it and grind those. However I’ll only create those cards after I’ve completed my CI session so as to not break my immersion. My review time can count as immersion if it flows nicely like I mentioned in this video. I generally do review first, CI second, create new cards last. In the video I don’t do it in that order as wanted to keep the video short.
I’ve got a video showing that here: The Grind | How to ACTUALLY Learn a Language ruclips.net/video/yPeXL_jp4E0/видео.html Not sure if you’re seen it. Let me know if anything is missing.
I have Traverse since my Chinese is coming from a course that uses Traverse. I have over 2K saved of cards... what I want to know, is how many cards a day do you review? Not add and then review, but just review?
Thanks for another great video! So when reviewing I’m just listening and repeating? Do I use the buttons after the same? Like if I didn’t understand a sentence do I click to repeat that again and again until I know it or just listen and repeat and then do it again tomorrow? Thanks again ❤
I am not using any anki. As far as I understand, this is some kind of a personal digital word list. I am far older than any software. I used to write down words in a notebook. It was too boring and therefore inefficient. It did not work for me. Usually I do not try to force-memorize. If I don't remember a word, I let it go. I'll meet it again somewhere, and if I won't then the word is not important. I don't know all words in any language including my own.
well, then maybe you could try doing the old school "Zettelkasten" - it's basically Anki, but done with file cards. LOL But seriously I agree, I would rather let circumstance and time dictate the importance of a word (for outright recall memory purposes); I'm fine with just having some recognition/exposure without all the hassle - if I really need it, then I'll learn one way or another.
As an american it is impressive to hear an analogy for language learning involving a rifle From an Australian lol.
I came to the comments to say the same thing
I don't experience learning words in a learn-review way.
Rather for most words its like a sliding familiarity scale..You can't learn a word until you have reviewed it many times, reaquaint with it. You may have to learn it many times over. Some words I see once and learn them forever, while some words take years of reviewing and relearning. Its totally random.
Anki is a great tool and I prefer to use it as a reminder tool 5 mins a day reviewing words without context rather than using it a deep learning thing, as it sucks up a lot of time to use that way.
I think all humans are like that in a way. However, I see learning as more the initial stage of acquiring the necessary knowledge to understand the sentence then reviewing is just increasing familiarity with said knowledge.
Hmm I hadn't heard of this idea that people will just repeat a simple phrase (or count to 10) to "warm up" a language. I am going to try this. I have studied a few languages and switching between them is often a huge pain. I wonder if this is something that can work mid conversation lol.
As for Anki I've heard this advice that you need to learn it first then just review it but for language (and probably a lot of things) if I check a dictionary I pretty much immediately understand the vocabulary and the sentence. If not now I can ask Chat GPT and it will break down the sentence and this is super helpful. And I now know and understand it. But I will also very likely forget it. If I put it into Anki, I am still likely to forget it and struggle with it and Anki will force me to review it to the point of ad nauseum. And then eventually I give up on the deck and delete it and start a new one. I tell myself it will be different and even if it is not different the reviews still helped my target language.
But some other RUclipsr does something that I am trying out and it seems like a good method for people like myself whose forgetting curve doesn't seem to fit any SRS algorithm. Instead of marking everything wrong when you get it wrong, mark it right and let Anki space out the reviews without forcing you to review the same material to death and give your short term memory an intense workout. Then when the next review is 2 months if you feel like you need more review (IE get it wrong) you can then mark it wrong and let Anki reset the reviews so you see it a lot again but at increasing intervals etc and it shouldn't feel like torture.
Just some tips, in case they may help you. 1) You can change how many time you need to click "good" on a card during a review session before it gets scheduled to the next time. For example, if I learn a new card or click "wrong" on some card, I will meet this card several times and need to click "good" before it becomes learned. You can change it in the deck options, "Learning steps" and "Relearning steps". Maybe if you need to review it more times during one day it can help with memorizing in longer term? 2) Did you try FSRS algorithm?
@@AnonymousPerson-cu7yz Yeah the FSRS algorithm does seem better at pushing cards that I know out faster giving me more time to drill the ones I don' know but it has the same issue for me which is trying to force me to relearn stuff the moment I forget it. I know the idea is to remind me of the meaning right before I'm going to forget it but the truth is it's just making me relearn it the moment I forget it.
I've experimented quite a bit with the steps option in Anki. It gives so much control I love it. I created a series of steps for my new deck going all the way up to 2 months lol - I'm using the old algorithm since FSRS doesn't like steps 1D or higher.
@ I guess you’re getting me thinking about some things I can do to adjust the settings and basically use Anki as intended and mark stuff wrong when it’s wrong lol. I still think this method is a pretty good one though. I used it for a few weeks before and just because I forgot a word or sentence and didn’t mark it wrong did NOT mean I would get it wrong the next time it came up. I would say it’s actually got about 1/3 of the words I had marked wrong right the next time despite marking them wrong and increasing the interval and not even doing the extra review you typically do the same day for words you get wrong. Why did I stop? I took a trip to Asia and of course with my trip coming up I was super motivated about short term gains over long term gains to learn the most possible for my up coming trip. And then I never went back to this method afterwards. It being the new year and all I’m rethinking things.
@@paulwalther5237 oh, no, if it works for you then it works for you, it's all good, absolutely no pressure from my side. You can't use it wrong if it works for you :) I just shared a couple of things I thought may or may not be helpful for you just in case you didn't know about them. Sorry if it sounded like I am criticizing or something, it wasn't my intention at all.
It’s pretty rare for me after I’ve studied and practiced something a little bit, that I’ll forget it by the next day. I’ll definitely be very slow and unsure by the next day but I wouldn’t have completely forgot it. If I do I generally take that as a sign I didn’t practice enough on the first day and I need to revisit it. However everyone has different abilities, short comings and strengths so what I suggested probably won’t work for you.
Thank you for making the particular video, you're absolutely right! It turns you, we're taking a lot of things for a given that may not be so.
What about things that you already kind of know in your target language but they're pretty vague and lack automation? Especially with structures, I feel I know them and would be able recognize them, but they don't come out smoothly.
Great background, by the way.
something is vague and lacks automation I make more cards around that particular structure. Eventually everything will be automated with time but you can help it along but creating more cards to practice it more.
@@Evildea Thanks, you probably don't know how much you've helped me with this series.
Learning/ reviewing are kind of intertwined. Where reviewing is a part of learning. Like part of "learning lines" is repetition, memorising, rehearsals, going over again and again (aka review).
Maybe it would be better to think if it more like discovering new things vs practising to perfection already known things. As both are aspects of learning but more clearly delineated. Thoughts?
I think he's using "learning" in a more narrow definition similar to what linguists/academicians seem to use, e.g. with respect to CI - comprehensive input - where "acquiring" is contrasted with "learning". Many commenters try to point out 'acquiring' is 'learning', but when the academicians use these, they have different meanings.... 'acquisition' is more passive and care free, without thought, whereas 'learning' is a more direct, purposeful and thought engaged activity.
As @atoms.channel mentions, I’m using it with a specific meaning :)
The problem is to different people these terms can have different meanings which is why I tried to draw the gun analogy.
I have anki set up to only show me new cards after I have reviewed all the cards due that day.
This also helps me ensure that I don't overload myself with new cards. If I review all the cards that I had today and feel like it was too much studying for one day, I won't review a bunch of new cards that will pile on to the reviews I have to do tomorrow.
In the beginning, it is super easy to throw yourself deep into learning with a bunch of new cards. But if you make that a habit, all those extra reviews will pile up too high once you get mid-way through the deck.
How did you set it up that way?
That’s not a bad strategy either. Although I do like my new cards to be randomly spaced between old ones. Something about the randomness of their placement makes me weirdly excited for discovering the new cards lol.
I think there's a good extension to this metaphor about combat experience where you master the tools.
Learning is a slightly ambiguous / controversial term, so it's good to explain what you meant.
Yes, combat experience would definitely be what we gain as we actively use the language in the real world haha
do you like re - watching/reading/.. stuff? Can be boring but after the 3rd or 25th time when u understand most of it, it feels good. Or mostly sentences / words?
I might rewatch somethings but I generally find it too boring unless it’s really engaging. For example there are some let’s plays in Chinese I’ve rewatched a few times because they’re fun.
I listened to this while doing something else so sorry if I missed it, but what exactly do you mean by keeping review separate from learning? If you learn some stuff then put it into Anki and review it the next day, you'll inherently forget some of it and have to break your flow (whether that be looking up the word in a dictionary, looking at the sentence translation in Anki itself, etc).
Do you just mean that it's best to set Anki to show all your reviews first, then new cards after?
Learning is the acquisition of knowledge necessary to perform the skill while review is practicing that skill. You may sometimes forget aspects of the knowledge necessary to perform the skill but that can be rectified when encountered. If you completely forget everything in a card you should probably go back and break down that knowledge into smaller chunks.
Hey man, would you make a video about how is your study session?
Hey, I cover that in my Grind video here: The Grind | How to ACTUALLY Learn a Language
ruclips.net/video/yPeXL_jp4E0/видео.html
If that doesn’t have what you need let me know.
@Evildea thanks man, I've just watched the video. I have a few questions, the session when you grind your sentences is the same for your immersion time, or do you count your review time as your immersion time? In my case, as a beginner, where should I start grinding? I usually watch comprehensible input videos and vlogs (for Chinese speakers), and I also have some graded reader books.
When you start noticing a pattern in your CI sessions that means it’s probably time to create sentences out of it so you can grind it. During a CI session I fight take 6 individual sentence templates and create 50 cards out of it and grind those. However I’ll only create those cards after I’ve completed my CI session so as to not break my immersion. My review time can count as immersion if it flows nicely like I mentioned in this video. I generally do review first, CI second, create new cards last. In the video I don’t do it in that order as wanted to keep the video short.
Thanks man . Any chance you could do an Anki session showing this on screen using some sample sentences?
I’ve got a video showing that here: The Grind | How to ACTUALLY Learn a Language
ruclips.net/video/yPeXL_jp4E0/видео.html
Not sure if you’re seen it. Let me know if anything is missing.
@ Great. Thank you 🙏
I feel like I spend more time making Anki cards then reviewing them 😂
I have Traverse since my Chinese is coming from a course that uses Traverse. I have over 2K saved of cards... what I want to know, is how many cards a day do you review? Not add and then review, but just review?
At home about 300 but here on holiday 200
Thanks for another great video! So when reviewing I’m just listening and repeating? Do I use the buttons after the same? Like if I didn’t understand a sentence do I click to repeat that again and again until I know it or just listen and repeat and then do it again tomorrow? Thanks again ❤
Pretty much. I show my method here: The Grind | How to ACTUALLY Learn a Language
ruclips.net/video/yPeXL_jp4E0/видео.html
I am not using any anki. As far as I understand, this is some kind of a personal digital word list. I am far older than any software. I used to write down words in a notebook. It was too boring and therefore inefficient. It did not work for me. Usually I do not try to force-memorize. If I don't remember a word, I let it go. I'll meet it again somewhere, and if I won't then the word is not important. I don't know all words in any language including my own.
All good. Anki isn’t for everyone :)
well, then maybe you could try doing the old school "Zettelkasten" - it's basically Anki, but done with file cards. LOL But seriously I agree, I would rather let circumstance and time dictate the importance of a word (for outright recall memory purposes); I'm fine with just having some recognition/exposure without all the hassle - if I really need it, then I'll learn one way or another.
I feel this video is screaming at me 😂😂😂
Hahaha all good lol
Have a safe journey home! 😊
Love to hear your thoughts on Langua ruclips.net/video/yM4LEUzPnLs/видео.htmlsi=gIOSikCHwjIK8ylH
I’ll check it out. If it makes for a good video I’ll post it.