I love the open discussion. It’s just like in grad school when my classmates and I would debate each other in class and go out for shakes afterwards. Love your channel Matt. I agree with you.... 90% 😆
@@simongrass1250 I went to a school in Harbin across from the university 哈工大, the language school was called 滨才 (Bincai). It was very cheap and great quality. None of my classmates were English speakers, so we had to use Chinese only to communicate.
@@shirobuta_ Yes, and it’s going to be a bit shocking. It was more than $15,000 for 8 years of Chinese and another $10,000 for 5 years of Japanese. BUT this amount includes my grad school tuition for both Fudan and Waseda University. So I got a degree out of it too. I’ve already gotten all that money back and much more from using the languages. It was an investment.
The biggest problem about advocating for classes vs self study is anyone is able to watch native material in their target language with RUclips or a Netflix subscription, but not all of us are able to fly to that country, pay for 4 hour intensive classes, while busy studying for high school, college, or working.
don't forget the private tutor! lol yeah I wish I could afford a private tutor to add to my personal studies and get corrected on my writing or speaking abilities but that's pretty expensive
It's all a cash grab. If the world truly understood and accepted the input hypothesis, it would be a financial disaster; trillions of dollars lost in language learning.
@@オリバーオリバー-e4d very true. even the "correcting" stuff mostly takes care of itself by just getting enough input. in fact you don't even make most of those mistakes in the first place.
I also find that the smart people look for testimonials and quickly notice that there are barely any good Japanese speaking foreigners from traditional classes while immersion based learning has a ton of high level people.
Me too. "Speak fluently" doesn't always mean "speak fluidly". One possible explanation why I'm not very fluid in my own native language, would be that the overwhelming majority of my communication went (and still goes) in written form and that I have a lower-than-average tolerance for preciseness of thought expression, objective correctness, choice of words and so on. So when trying to meet my standards speaking more-or-less original thoughts in realtime, the pauses become inevitable.
Ha! Exactly. I have 5 degrees and I am currently a Biology Professor. There are still thousands of words I don't know. I'm leaning towards Matt's theory about listening. I sing and have a good ear so I am able to emulate tones pretty easily. However, not everyone has that ability, I would think some languages would give some people much more problems than others due to their tone-deafness. lol
I like Oriental Pearl but having felt the same way as her about 14-18 months ago, and now feeling different, I think that she draws weird conclusions from what she sees. e.g. "It's going to slow your pronunciation down quite a lot to not speak in the first 6 months..." Well, if it's going to take your 3-5 years, no. If you're trying to produce Italian when you already speak fluent Spanish, maybe. But otherwise it's the equivalent to spending one hour fitting a turbo charger to a car that's going to drive a 24 hour race. It is a "waste" of the first hour, but you'll overtake the cars that jumped off the line straight away with no turbo.
I would argue that there's definitely wrong ways of making omelettes, for example if you put coal on it, i'm sure there won't be a single person that is going to find it delicious, but i don't think there's a right way either. Some people like it spicy, others prefer it kind of salty, ones want it very fried, and so on and so forth, therefore it all comes down to what your tastes are.
Well at the same time, one person may like their omelette one way and someone else another. Taste is subjective in the same way that we all learn differently.
Sounds like the biggest difference in their opinions comes from Matt studying without living in the country and Anming studying while living in the country. It's great to hear both perspectives!
Yh, I think staying in the country in the right environment will force you to use the language so you can't be like "yh, I can't start outputting yet". Like you can't not.
@@k.5425 Matt was in japan for 6 months. He has 3 hour long video about his Japanese journey, I recommend watching it on 2x speed, it’s pretty entertaining
Imo they disagree on pretty much everything 😂 their whole approach and philosophy towards language learning is completely different, being in the country or not is honestly quite irrelevant to their views
@@DengueBurger yh, I haven't watched his 3 hour video but I've heard him mentions it so many times. When he's usually giving an intro in like interviews or something. I might eventually watch it. Or maybe not. Because I've watched so many of his videos, I know a lot already and it's probably stuff he's mentioned in the 3 hour video.
My take is that she describes what is probably the fastest way to learn a language, whereas Matt describes the easiest way to effectively learn a language.
I think language schools are impractical for most people because they are expensive and pretty inflexible to an individuals circumstances, but also useless if you already know what you are doing when it comes to language learning. The only advantage I can see is commiting that much money and effort, plus having your teachers and peers eyes on you would probably be a pretty big motivator.
There is also what Steve Kaufmann said, "What's the rush"? There is nothing wrong with taking longer to learn a language. Not everyone is able to learn at such a high speed and intensity.
I went to an Italian Language immersion school in southern Italy and saw myself and others rapidly learn Italian. I had a small foundation of Italian before arriving but my roommate and many others had 0 Italian background. I watched my roommate go from 0 to be able to have conversations in the street with strangers in only 2 months. We did Italian lessons for 5 hours a day, 4 days a week and no English was ever used in the class. Even the text book was written entirely in Italian. Sounds crazy to some but it works extremely well.
@@Bayo106 Yes. I made a huge amount of progress with my Mandarin in China until I hit the point where I knew the language necessary to meet my needs at which point it got to be harder and harder to make progress as I wasn't being forced to do so. Plus, because I was in China, everything I did took a ton of time. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably hire one of the locals to go out with me and make me try to use the language. Which wasn't at the time hard to arrange, paying for drinks and meals or doing language exchanges would likely have been enough. I just hadn't though of doing so. To this day, my Mandarin skills for buying things are quite good, even though the skills I have for making friends are basically non-existent. It was a large gap and I didn't have the time or energy to figure out how to get past it. IMHO, the three main advantages to immersion are being forced to use the language, being able to soak it up constantly and being forced to develop creativity with how you use the language. The second is typically the easiest to manage without anybody's help.
Matt: follow a free guide involving watching language content frequently and you can get fluent Oriental Pearl: go to an expensive, 20 hour per week language school, get a private tutor in addition, live in the country, and study in your free time, and you can get fluent
It really depends. I went for a year to Brazil. My former employer hired me as a remote contractor, and I realized I was making more money this way than when I had worked from the office full-time. I also had enough spare time on my hands to follow a similar intensive curriculum and because I was not in Rio or Sao Paulo, the instruction was dirt cheap, but really high quality. No one spoke English, so I was forced to use Portuguese for everything from day 1. Finally, the people there were very open, engaging and talkative so you could not avoid random conversations even if you wanted to. As a result, one month in I was taken for a Portuguese. In six months I reached the upper-intermediate / advanced level at the school (university, really) I studied at and was routinely perceived as a local outside its doors. My journey was almost the opposite of what many people here preach: I first polished my pronunciation to remove any obstacles to production and then, in addition to school, actively learned situational chunks of vocab, for example before going to a barbershop or a hardware store, and activated it right in the process. That vocab stayed with me forever, even without SRS which I didn't use at the time. It's important to say that the culture itself was very conducive to a lot of input. As I said, it was impossible not to engage in conversations in lineups, elevators and simply in the street. And originally all I could do was nod and produce sounds demonstrating my interest and encouragement to continue. In that scenario, I don't see how or why you would not output from the get-go. You don't perpetuate any errors, because on the one hand you're corrected in classes and on the other you're always bombarded with real-life input that keeps you improving all the time. Unless you have very little self-awareness, you will rapidly improve without making any output errors permanent due to this rapid feedback loop
I'm genuinely curious how oriental pearl could parse out whether it was her classes or all the other supplements that were the core thing that is important for language acquisition. Like, which are the core components.
@@Jlukecampos well, that's the true point here: no ones JUST learns or JUST acquires a language. That dichotomy put forward by Stephen Krashen is a bit misleading. You can first learn something consciously, such as a grammatical rule, and then internalize it as an intuitive structure after producing a bunch of examples and being exposed to input containing this structure. Likewise, you can first be exposed to a structure through input, kind of get the hang of it and then learn the rule that explains it. No one just learns something consciously and is then bound to always perform the same conscious manipulations to arrive at an utterance. You eventually acquire what you learn and you learn what you acquire. Hence, you can really approach it from both ends
@Joshua Carrillo You realize learning a word with the bilingual definition gives a very vague meaning with missing nuance? You realize you can learn words without having to look them up via comprehensible input? That you have to listen a lot in order for your brain to properly parse the phonemes and sounds of the language? And you realize monolingual dictionaries exist? You're probably extremely low level in your TL if it takes 10 episodes for an hour of active study, and everyone has to go through that but once you've listened to enough gibberish for a couple hundred hours the sounds will be parsed and words will pop out and make sense in context after hearing them so many times.
@Joshua Carrillo What about german? I pickup words while watching tv and using an online dictionary. It gives you several examples in context. I learn words from tv through visual context. For example what's happening, body language, expression, how something is said. All these things help you to infer. I picked up the word weiter through just inferring based on context of the show. Then looked up the word and realized I was correct on the meaning. Simply because the context was comprehensive input. That was through watching one episode once. If you watch a german cooking show. The chef picks up a potato and says kartoffel. Then you just learned the word for potato through comprehensive input. If two people are running a track. One person is trying to spur their friend on. To keep going and finish saying weiter weiter weiter! Then you can infer it means something along the lines of more, further, keep going. That is another example of comprehensible input. Most words I've aquired through inference of context.
Well I tried watching TV shows in target from the start ( almost ). I was bored to death. So I quickly phased out, making the all thing pointless. Studying from textbooks, as imperfect as it is, gives you a structure and a sense of progression. You can still come back to immersion once you understand 60-70% of what is being said. Plus MIA is designed by and for the unemployed who can afford spending most their days in front of TV shows. If MIA suits your needs and gives you the results you want, I am glad. But when it's sold as the universal best language learning method ever, I take issue. I get better results from a textbook at the beginning, and it's actually more fun for me that way, and less frustrating.
I'm not just impressed by Matt's japanese but also his English. The way he speaks and expresses himself and his choice of words are all perfect and not even a single stutter. Not only do I wish to be as good as him in japanese but also in English. I feel like no matter how much I input in English I'll always stutter and use the wrong word here and there. edit: ALSO STAR LIGHT. YEAH YOU WITH THE MITSUHA PIC. I SEE YOU EVERYWHERE AND I KNOW YOU'RE READING THIS COMMENT.
I'm of the view that the input hypothesis is fundamentally correct and that only input-based approaches will really get you far in language acquisition. That said, if you want to actually speak a language *well*, and speak it in an articulate and eloquent way, then you do need to practice speaking (this won't impact your language comprehension or understanding, of course, because that's all input). But this is true of our native languages as well; almost all people who speak very well such as motivational/public speakers, actors, debaters, etc. have gone through significant output practice. And Matt has gotten much more comfortable and articulate even in English as he's put out more videos over time.
Love your channel, Matt! I'm a native Japanese, but I grew up in Europe, and besides Japanese, I'm fluent in English and German, and I'm on my way to becoming fluent in Russian. I only recently discovered your channel but looking back I realize that what I've been doing all my life is just these 2 things you're always going on about: immersion and learning vocabulary/phrases. You only need to focus and give 100% on these two things and you'll eventually become fluent, and that's the only ticket, pretty much! Everything else (like learning grammar) is extra. And I started over 20 years ago, when I was in my teens.... Cheers and all the best!
The more I keep seeing my hot sons out there doing their own thing makes me proud as an online RUclips dad. Both of you are being able to have a debate and disagree without taking it personally. Wish the internet showcased more people like this vs the later. Good job you two! Papa is 大変プラウドだ！！！
Awesome video Matt! I love how well spoken you are, it's really engaging and pleasant to listen to. Also, the way you're able to disagree with someone without making it seem like you're above them is just an amazing skill that more people should know. This friendly debate between you and Anming was just amazing and I'm so happy that you've bee able to upload more videos again.
The thing is though, all of her ways to combat the negative effects of her method, require a HUGE amount of resources that many people don't have. Not everyone can afford a class that has a teacher that knows what their doing with a classroom size of 5.
I think the difference is: language learning classes in the country where you’re with other adults who want to be good vs language learning classes in high school and even college where it goes slow and half the class doesn’t care too much.
Yh, because in primary to high school french was compulsory abd we did roughly 9 years of French and none of us can boast of being fluent. So, because it was compulsory, we didn't care much, it was more like any other subject "oh, we just need to take this class" Whereas in university, I've made a lot of progress in Spanish within the year because I actually want to learn the language
The thing is language classes, regardles of location, are taught by adult native speakers, who most likely never learned a second language to near native. The class philosophy is basically:" ok im a native and i habe this huge mass of language in my head. So if i wanna teach them, i just tell them all about the words and grammar. If they cram it enough theyll speak like me" its completely backwards, it ignores that this is not how humans acquire languages AT ALL. matts method actually takes this into account and instead proscribes thousands of ours of immersion as the number one ingredient. Without that ingredient you will never be native like no matter what you do.
@@sklanguage589 Yeah, it's the worlds most common story xD worse is, when the problem continues in language schools, where people pay up the a** and get nothing from it.
And high school classes literally only care about grammar tests and memorising vocabulary lists, no context at ALL. It’s like they’re designed specifically to not teach you the language lol
日本語の森 kinda takes a similar approach, where you learn the language in the language, additionally her way of learning is heavily gated to the privilaged and wealthy. Not everyone has money to go to a country, enroll into multiple language schools.
Yeah, that method is not scalable at all. But it's not necessarily wealthy because some countries have free universities that have exchange programs with other countries. But it's definitely privileged, I think internet access in the world is much bigger than access to college.
@@Wilpsn well she also said she didn't like university classes. She advocates for language schools with very small class sizes, which are pretty expensive most of the time.
@@malikbooker9187 do you think jobs is all what it takes to pay off shit? My tuition in school is 15k a semester do you think a 9/5 is enough to sustain me? use common sense for once please. And before you rebuttal with doing multiple jobs use common sense on why that would be counter productive for your time spent learning.
I think it's got more to do with what you expect out of the class and how you're working it into your effort. I've had lousy ones and great ones, and I think the main difference was me. In most cases, there wasn't really anything different other than my attitude towards. The main exception was Mandarin, where both schools I dealt with seemed to think that finishing the book was the goal, whether or not I actually learned anything from it. Classes can be a great way of building up a basic framework of how the language works and getting practice with basic competency.
on the topic of fluency, i feel i agree that its a loaded word and only means what you want it to mean for you. im a native english speaker and ive read books where i could read an entire page and not understand 75% of whats being said. i feel fluency is less about the amount of knowledge ive acquired and more about the amount of thinking i have to do in order to output that knowledge. for instance i could explain computers to someone for hours without having to stop and make sure im remembering correctly. but if i started talking about biology of the animal kingdom, i would struggle to find anything to say that i feel i know as fact without looking it up and digesting the information and then translating it into something that makes sense to me.
I agree with you, we actually don't get fluent in a language but in topics, for example in my native language (Spanish) there are many things that are hard to me to talk about, like technology, but somehow I feel confident talking about that topic in English lol
On Stephen Crashen and comprehensible input: I have never interpreted his work as discouraging the acquirer from speaking at an early stage but simply that the acquirer should not be pressured to speak before they are ready. This ties together with foreign language anxiety and the affective filter which is a huge part of the comprehensible input theory. If you’re feeling stressed or anxious in the classroom or situation you’re in your ability to acquire the input will be limited, according to the theory. But if you enjoy talking and feel ready to try I don’t recall krashen ever having spoken against it. Problem with a lot of foreign language classrooms is that students are often pressured to speak when they are in fact not ready yet, causing them a less optimal environment for acquisition. I personally enjoy talking to people from a pretty early stage and learning that way comes much more naturally to me than binge watching a bunch of media content. And let’s not forget that conversations provide comprehensible input all the same as listening and reading materials :)
I'm going through his book on his Taiwan speeches atm, Krashen isn't opposed to early output, and in fact sees the positives. I think the key point people may mistake is Krashen claims output doesn't *improve* anything. However it's heavily related to his "affective filter hypothesis"/or Chomsky's "language acquisition device", which is essentially our perception that we're part of the "group" (language speakers) which can accel growth, and you'll receive more input through speaking (hopefully to people who are native/properly fluent)
Oriental Pearl: "There's more than one way to make an omelette." A timeless phrase: "One can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." They both add up.
I totally agree with OrientalPearl on the importance of "correction". If there's no one who corrects your mistakes, mistakes will become permanent habbits. That's why I totally agree with Matt on the importance of input. Because no English teacher will follow you 24/7 and correct every single mistake that you make. That's why it's important to develop the ability to "sense" your own mistakes. That's what you get by lots of input, the intuitive feeling of "this doesn't sound right".
Yeah. . . I'm with Matt. Speaking early and corrections didn't help me out the first time around (Even in a small class with a great teacher). It took lots of input (specifically audio input) to course correct and reach a solid intermediate level. I just keep thinking of that Stephen Krashen video where he speaks in german, while drawing pictures, and I understand every single thing he said. And I don't know a lick of german. So, I'm going with Matt's (or Stephen Krashen's) methods this time.
i also agree with the point about inputs but i wonder how to go from that to actually using the language. I consider myself to understand the language i’m learning to around 80%, in speech and writing however I can’t seem to get myself to speak or writing it confidently...
Great discussion and it's nice to see both of you being so cordial! I am sure her intentions were good and she was trying to use it in good faith, but the "there's more than one way to make an omelette" argument is an example of why analogies/metaphors used incorrectly in a discussion can be so deceptive as she never felt the need to explain exactly why that is the case - just because you can conjure up a metaphor that serves to describe your point doesn't actually make your point. Analogies/metaphors are used for explanatory purposes, not proofs. Again, she definitely seemed to have pure intentions and she could very well have a good explanation for why she believes her metaphor to accurately reflect the reality of language acquisition, but a bald metaphor doesn't go a long way in accomplishing that. I also think Matt's point of her having reached a high level of fluency in spite of early output could have been expanded upon. Given the complete absence of an internal "natural pronunciation/speech detector" before you have heard thousands of hours listening to natively spoken language, imagining all of the ways there are to get structure/pronunciation/word appropriateness wrong boggles the mind, and imagining any teacher or tutor, regardless of their patience level, being able to properly correct every single nuance that indicates non-native speech is completely unreasonable. You therefore are bound to end up with mistakes that simply weren't filtered out and, to Matt's point, you will only rid yourself of those mistakes insofar as you are able to subsequently develop an internal sense of how the language should sound via input - in which case why not just develop that innate sense of correctness beforehand and avoid this issue altogether? Anyway, great discussion and you have to be impressed with her ability to tackle Chinese and then still have the motivation to do it all over again with Japanese. I can definitely see her point of comradery in a classroom setting enabling this sustained level of motivation. It definitely seems to be the case that a big portion of what makes a method the "best" is whether it keeps you motivated long enough to actually get enough exposure in the language, and I think she made that point very well!
My experience with English was pretty similar to Matt's with japanese, although it had some differences: I've never studied english, but I've been exposing myself to it since I was 10 or less, because I always liked to watch things in their original language. In the beginning of this year, I decided to really try hard on English, and started using some methods to kick off my speaking, and I noticed that at I knew fairly well what to say, but I couldn't say it properly and in the speed I wanted to. Then after some weeks of practicing, I noticed I had improved A LOT in pronunciation, speed and even in speaking in a more natural way. Most of the knowledge was already there, I only had to learn how to use it.
Not only do I have the exact same background as you, but I'm now facing the same challenge also. What has been your approach to bettering your speach and pronunciation?
@@LucasAraujo-fm8lu I started by reading texts out loud, then I downloaded some language exchange apps to talk to native people. Sometimes I'd even "think loud" in english haha.
Yh, I think Matt won this debate. I don't think Oriental's points were bad per se but Matt is clearly more versed on the subject matter, which is something you would expect from someone who has researched the "linguistics and acquisition" aspect of language learning quite intensively and took it that extra step further.
@@haroombe123 I also found her 'definition of fluency" very interesting. By her logic, I wouldn't be fluent even in my native language. Because I certainly pause a lot when expressing my ideas and I cannot talk about politics
I follow both of you and your abilities are exceptional--so, in a way, this shows that your approaches work for you and could work for others. Years ago, I took an intensive language course at a national defence language school here in Ottawa--and after a year, my speaking ability was very high. I was taught by a native speaker and worked on the language 7 days a week. I have learned several languages over the years--and my own takeaway is that a combination of up-front knowledge of language structure, vocabulary, and at least some grammar serves as a great foundation for immersion and accelerated learning. I've been trying Matt's approach to Japanese in the last year and a half--and I have to say that I've learned more about Japanese than I expected, although at this point, my speaking ability is not what I want it to be. I'm just starting to enter the active stage of my language journey. What I do find is that my speaking ability, while still stilted and sub par, is advancing very, very quickly because of all the listening and reading I've done. Certainly, this immersive approach has been more entertaining---listening to native speakers on television shows and in movies and modelling my sentences on the utterances of native speakers has been worthwhile and reassuring. Thanks so much to you both for your interesting discussion. I do think that a better definition of "fluent" is required. For me right now, I consider fluent something akin to being able to speak in a reasonably flowing manner on demand and on various topics--using language that is not too simple.
neither is "right" or "wrong". there is no "perfect" or "best" method that works for everyone. each person learns best with the methods that are right for them.
"That bad input" that's a good definition, and I think this bad input can make a lot harm on your knowledge in the target language on the long term. I'm from Brazil, and here most English classes in school are 100% grammar and 100% useless, not only because of the content, but also the teachers, who are never fluent, and some of them can't even reach a basic level, which is the case of my english teacher: she speaks English so bad that I always feel stuck when I try to speak English on the same day of her class.
Maybe it depends on the person? When I was a kid, apparently I started talking very late but with little to no mistakes for my age, whereas my little brother was talking way earlier but with a bunch of mistakes. We both are of course fluent now and had no problems as children.
@@caiosantos9986 Ah okay now I see. I'll help you out a little bit. Well I guess my vocabulary needs some improvement* OR Well I guess my vocabulary needs to improve* (Improvement is a noun. Improve is a verb.) My speech is not good because I don't have anyone to practice with*
I took a semester of Japanese at my university after Id been self studying for about 6 months (not immersion learning, just going through the genki books) and like Matt says, it was extremely slow paced and much of class time was listening to other students struggle to say very basic things. The following semester I studied abroad in Japan and took a semester of Japanese classes (4 classes, broken into conversation, listening, writing, and grammar). These classes were taught entirely in Japanese and I was one of the lowest level students in the class. I got a lot out of the class because it put a lot of pressure on me to get better so I could actually understand what was going on (the first month was really stressful since I couldnt understand what my professors were saying hardly at all) and I learned a lot of cultural nuance from my Japanese teachers that I might have picked up on without someone to teach me. That being said, I dont think the lessons themselves were all that useful. I think I promptly forgot most of what I learned in them, or at least a good portion, and we still spent a lot of time listening to other novice Japanese learners speaking instead of native content. It sounds like the kind of language school Oriental Pearl is talking about is pretty hard to come by if you're unable to travel at will. I was in an extremely fortunate and very unusual circumstance when I did my study abroad and dont expect I would have such an opportunity again. That is the reality for most people, I think, and especially adults that dont have any family support structure.
Oriental Pearl: Rule following, logic-based memorization, and classes. Matt: Embodied Cognition, Skill-acquisition, and language acquisition. The obvious choice is Matt's usage of skill/language acquisition.
I think one thing most people don't consider is that people are different. Some people prefer one way because they are more comfortable with that. If you force yourself to do something it will be automatically less effective.
Thanks for this video! Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with different methods, society in general needs to hear more of this kind of constructive debates
I don't really see the debate points being much different from each other. Other than she "likes" to have someone to motivate her hence the fact of going to Language school. Self study is all dependent on self motivation and the adaptation to improve. The main difference I do see that you matt have a higher standard than oriental pearl does and the understanding of "言語の学びが終わらない” Which is very essential not just in Language learning, but also in life(Improving on something or onesself). マットさん、これからも頑張ってください！ I love watching your videos and Oriental pearls! Keep up the awesome work both of you!
Acquisition is where it is at I was in high school German 42 years ago. We did like that one school where the teacher used hand gestures and wrote on the board. We never had textbooks. I had an opportunity recently to speak some in German. I am amazed at how much I retained. I say that was because I acquired it rather than learned it.
You'll get there with time. Watch shows with Japanese subs if you aren't already, it'll build you up to reading books. Just started my first Japanese light novel and it's challenging, but I'm making progress.
Do you mean you can understand spoken Japanese pretty well? In that case, I wonder if it would help your reading comprehension to say the sentences out loud as you read! And I suppose an added bonus of that would be getting more familiar with the feeling of speaking Japanese yourself, as well.
I can really see both sides of the argument. I think they both make valid points and that their advice is catered to different types of people with different circumstances. Loved the video! Would love to see more debate/discussion based videos like these ! ❤️
Some comments are very disrespectful towards Oriental Pearl, her methods are viable and aren't put here for mockery. Even though I've done both methods, I do think self-stufy is way better.
I think a point you overlook is that not everyone can have such a high lvl of motivation like you Matt and early classes help you make the first steps towards this huge montain, it's also helped me with grammar that I struggled to study by myself, but I did quit before the end of the program to go MIA style but I don't regret langage class for getting started. Also the pace is very fast in langage school in Japan, people go for N3 or N2 (depending if they are chinese or not :p) after 18 months/ 2 years
I took classes and once the classes were over I stopped learning for 5 years. Using classes to substitute your motivation will not work in the long run to learning a language. More recently I started doing immersion and I have made more progress in 6 months than I did of 3 semesters of classes, and years of Rosetta stone, duolingo, pimslur, and textbooks. I spent roughly 10 years trying all sorts of different things but wasn't consistent in any of them. I have since learned over 1000 kanji in the past 6 months and I am making great progress and having fun doing so.
Indeed. I agree about special topics. I have been a science and critical thinking teacher for 20 years. Most of my students are fluent in their native language of English, but once we start discussing particular topics outside of their area, it is as if they heard me speaking a foreign language. I even have Chinese students that I tutor and when I have them look up the Chinese for the science topics we are covering, the most common response is, "I don't even know these words in my own language". Yet, they are fluent. :-)
As someone who is currently studying Japanese in a language school in Tokyo, I agree with Matt 100%. I learned English with the same method but with Japanese, I wanted to "shorten" the path of acquiring the language by attending a language school but it seems it was the worst idea ever.
@@furretar6484 Yeah, discounting pitch accent, Matt's level after five years was incredibly high. Not sure how good she was after five years but I have heard her speak and imo she is far from being as good as Matt in speaking at least, and I am betting her reading and listening fluency is also far from Matt's. Not saying she isn't good for a foreigner, but I guess her goals aren't set as high as Matt's either.
Essentially, the argument here is over how much pipe needs to be laid before really starting to express oneself in the language. I personally took a year of German classes at a local college, and then spent a bunch of time just listening to the radio. I've still got a long ways to go, but I'm at a point where I can generally understand radio and TV without too much trouble. I do miss a bunch, but I'm at a point where I'm learning vocabulary purely from context, the way that a native speaker would. But, I'm incredibly shy, so I've barely ever spoken to any native speakers. For introverts and people who have issues with anxiety, it might make more sense to start talking as soon as possible, but that's mainly because the longer you go without doing it, the more of a cliff you face when you do decide to start talking.
Master's student vs a guy who left college without finishing the degree. It would probably be hard for linguists to take these new theories seriously without some academic training and credentials.
From financial perspective, I'd agree more towards Matt method. It's really costly to travel and pay for tuitions as they're mostly very expensive (at least for me).
I absolutely loved this debate. As someone who barely understands any Japanese but speaks and reads even less and conscientiously puts effort into pronunciation, and as well as someone who is learning organic chemistry at the moment (which is considered almost like learning a language), it's very interesting to see who I agree with more on each topic.
That was a very informative video, Anne and Matt. Thank you both for doing this. I think there was some confusion about what fluency means. I can't speak with any certainly on topics like; Science, Politics and Religion simply because I've not studied extensively about those topics in my own language. There are jargon specific words and concepts I've never heard of before. Dose that mean I'm not fluent in my own language? Of course not, there needs to be some clarity on this as otherwise no one is fluent in any language as no one person knows everything and how that is expressed. Once again, thank you for uploading this and I didn't mean anything bad by it just thought it was something that stood out to me. Hope you're both well. See you next time. 😀
I think the point is more-so that some people can only hold a conversation about a few everyday topics. They can speak very well on the 5 topics they know, but nothing else really. Somewhere inbetween the extremes of knowing 3 topics and knowing all topics is the sweet spot, I guess. The term "fluent" is pretty useless in most aspects though, since everyone has a different definition as they mentioned.
I have learned English on my own for years. I had taken English lessons for 3month. But she didn't point out my mistakes. So I didn't improve. An another tutor pointed out my mistakes too many times and I felt down. When I translate the English textbook with Japanese translation, I get to know my mistakes without frustration. So I like self study.
Both sides presented good arguments. I can find similarities in my experience learning Japanese with Matt's so I should be aware of my bias. I barely spoke any Japanese for my first few years. I took university classes, studied far beyond curriculum requirements, and got at least a few hours of listening input every day. Long story short: I had some Japanese friends that I only spoke to in English. They moved back to Japan. One day, one of them called and spoke with me in Japanese. Neither of us realized until a few minutes into the conversation that I was (only) speaking Japanese too now. It just came out naturally. The friend couldn't believe what was going on. This was about two years into my experience. I guess my understanding was gradually improving all along, but in terms of language output, I think I went from beginner to intermediate like a light switch. I'd say I achieved an advanced level after five years. It took me a few years of living and working in Japan, self study, and regular exposure to different situations. Have you ever taken part in Japanese funerals? I've done several. How about treat a person that fell off a building, call emergency services, stay and keep them awake until help arrives? Yes… I think having an “input loaded” learning experience helped me react accordingly in various situations. After my tenth year, I hadn't met any non-natives (who study Japanese) that spoke as well as me. Yes, there are celebs and RUclipsrs (Matt and Dogen included) better than me, but I still consider myself in the top percentile. Being able to produce language well and quickly is ideal, but one thing that was interestingly not mentioned in this video: BUDGET
This was a little painful to watch. Matt is obviously light years ahead of Oriental Pearl in his understanding of theory and methodology. The fact that she had no idea who Steven Krashen is said it all. She also kept saying "I don't have any bad habits in Chinese" over and over again but her Chinese pronunciation is mediocre. I'm also so over all these people who make videos about locals reacting to them speaking their language. "White Girl Speaks Chinese to Restaurant Owner!" All this stuff is stupid clickbait nonsense that offers no value aside from pumping the ego of the video maker and continuing to perpetuate how "exotic" asians are. Imagine an Asian person making a channel of street reactions of them speaking bad English and you'll realize how stupid this is. Kudos to Matt for making exceptional content about language learning methodology that is unrivaled.
Yes, I am a native Chinese speaker and a Japanese learner. Matt's level of Japanese is truly native whereas Oriental Pearls, even judging from her latest videos, is still middle/high school level. That might be harsh but it is simply reality. Middle/high school level is great for an american btw, like top 3% of foreign speakers. For example, Matt could easily have a debate about economic policies, politics, and working culture in Japan, whereas I would bet a lot of money the woman in the video could not.
I agree with Pearl and Matt but ultimately that there are many ways to learn a language. Perhaps they should have debated primarily for the the efficiency of their method. In which case I'd agree with Matt. There's nothing like choosing the material you want to immerse in and learn at a pace dictated by your dedication rather than a school and it's students ability.
You guys both have really valid points.. I took Japanese in middle school and high school, watched anime and Japanese TV shows, and lived in Japan for over a year now- all without any output. I still suck at speaking because I lack the self motivation that I think going to a language school would provide me. However, in the few phrases that I do say to fellow Japanese co-workers, they say that my intonation/accent sounds very natural. I think this is the result of absorbing input and gaining that intuition of how Japanese is supposed to sound, like Matt says. But, I also agree with Oriental Pearl that for some people, going to a school would give you those 2 benefits of motivation and a teacher to correct you. It's difficult to find the "correct" or "natural" answer on the internet or just from listening as there are different dialects or even expressions that simply can't be defined in a textbook. I.e. in America, people say "word" to agree with something. Imagine trying to understand the nuance of using "word" as a foreign learner of English.
I think one explanation as to why you disagree about formal classes and yet have both achieved high levels of proficiency in your L2s is that if a formal teacher is speaking 90% or more in the target language, the "teaching" itself becomes input. So although the teacher is trying to employ conventional "learning" techniques (which have pretty much been established to be sub-optimal) the content itself becomes a means to acquire the language. For example, a teacher may try to explain a grammar rule, which in itself will have only minimal direct benefits to the student, but the sentences that the teacher employs to explain the grammar rule themselves become input which feeds the students "language machine", leading to acquisition.
@@leonardodavinci4259 the thing about massive immersion is even if you spend your first 2 years in a language just studying it,if after that you spend 8 years of heavy immersion you will reach top fluency (not saying thats exactly what she did just random numbers off the top). You're right it doesn't prove anything. But if you take extremes, it is impossible to reach a native like level with just classical teaching methodolies, whereas some1 who does 100% just pure input will always acquire the highest result eventually... that's why i dont believe in her method, if you ask me, every successful language learner just ended up doing MIA at some point without knowing it, regardless of how they started.
@@afonsomendes6907 Yes true, massive input and exposure will get anyone to fluency eventually. Matt even says you don't even need to srs. People reached fluency before there were ever srs systems like anki exc. You can just watch tv shows over as a form of natural srs. Look up words with an online dictionary.
I think Matt’s approach gives hope to people without the resources to attend the high quality classes mentioned by Oriental Pearl. Beliefs drive behaviour, if people understood and trusted the power of immersion they would improve. So many immigrants in North America feel hopeless about learning English because they can’t pay or attend classes, and then they spend the majority of their time off-work immerse in their native language watching news, tv, entertainment, etc talking to friends and family, etc. They could empower themselves by dedicating some of their time to enjoyable English immersion.
@@malikbooker9187 but when he was able to read novels he was barely at 5 years, even check his reddit posts from many years ago. I doubt she can do that even now. Point made.
@@malikbooker9187 They both achieved great levels dont get me wrong, but considered matt has never even payed for one single course, and has not lived in japan like pearl has...I think Matt is more practical.
I'm happy to see this video, I have found the answers on some of my questions. Totally agree that there should be invented new terms for language learning. Love you both guys, thank you for your work
My Chinese is at that level An Ming described where I can clumsily describe almost anything I want to convey, but not nicely, and I lack the advanced content that lies beyond lower intermediate (politics, religion, business etc). In my experience of being at that level I never once would think to apply the adjective 'fluent' to myself!
Matt´s method is the natural way how children learn languages, as babies all we get at the start is input, comprehension is the key, then a couple years later in average we start talking then school where we learn to read and wright the natural progression but as adults we can learn all kinds of ways.
I love this video series Matt! I started to make videos in Português for Brazilians and I have reached a comfortable level of fluency entirely from self study after a year (started January 2020). I also learned Japanese in high school like you did but didn't continue my studies to fluency, yet. I like all the points you guys brought up in this video. I don't have a lot of subscribers like the people you usually bring on, but it would definitely be a great goal for me to be in one of these interviews one day! I can describe how I was able to learn Português so quickly from zero without the need for formal courses or studies. じゃねー
Matt I think you are right on this. I am native Mandarin speaker. After checking some of her videos, whether seeing from the Taiwanese or Chinese accent of the language, I have to say her accent is just so far from perfect compared to what I have seen non-natives speaker speaking. Those people will still from time to time make certain minor mistakes (untypical of native speakers) and the general flow and intonation/accent feels right. But her speaking, hmm, if it’s not for her saying having being an advanced and fluent user in Mandarin (which I sort of believe she may be), I would mistake her as an at best intermediate level learner... so, yeah, it seems like speaking too early on did bring her a lot of deeply rooted bad habits
The main reason I think Matt's approach is better is because it seems more practical for regular people. The other way sounds sooooooo expensive. I'm learning Korean but I can't afford to move to Korea, go to a Korean language school for 4 hours every day and then hire a private tutor for 2 more hours every day. Also I'm studying to be an English teacher in college and we learned in one of my classes last semester that a silent period should be allowed and encouraged for the first year after a student moved to the US and that we should never force them to speak early
I absolutely loved this video. It was so great to hear both sides. I think you both have great points! I'm already subscribed to Anming and now your channel.
In all honesty it feels like Oriental Pearl might be more inclined to disagree with the comprehensible input method because of the time she invested in the traditional methods. As someone who has tried both and has recently dropped language learning classes (dedicated classes outside of college or school and after attending for over a year) I can say that you can get more out of 30 minutes of listening than you can out of a 2 hour class. I feel like the problem for many beginners is that A) They don't know where to start and how to structure their studying/listening and B) Self-study might not be as motivating or as exciting as taking classes with an actual native speaker. Even though Matt's website Refold details the optimal process (in my opinion), it is a process that I went through naturally and that I wish I knew (or believed in) from the start. As someone who speaks a second language fluently and that has witnessed the wild variances between the people that speak English here I can say that the biggest difference was and always will be exposure to that language and its media (input). I rarely if ever spoke in class and my language ability was greater than most due to consumption alone (all input no output).
Also want to add that people's language ability and the place that they are at on the fluency spectrum is completely self-determined and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
the last part was very interesting - im conversationally quite fluent in japanese when it comes to topics i love and engage in everyday (games, exercise, movies), but as soon as it gets out of that realm... ええと何だけ every five seconds 😭 dogen talks about this too, and I think thats just natural for any language learner because ultimately we tend to block out the information we don’t use or care as much about, even in our own native tongue, despite having acquired it
My definition of fluency is if you're at the same level of your native language in your target language: listening, comprehension, output ability, etc., except for your accent, that's ok to not be "perfect".
As a self learner, I can't stand schools, I have my own pace and way of studying/learning. Actually, if I do it myself, I am more motivated, than someone giving me orders how to do it.
i think people should just try different things and stick to what works for them! Language acquisition is not a race. Also, Learning is not linear and everyone excels at learning a different way. Its great to see differing opinions and what works for some people and what doesn't though. However, I think a lot of people think SO hard about the BEST way to do something that they spend more time learning how to study a language than actually studying the language. (and of course what is available and possible to you to learn a language, ect. I think its all purely subjective honestly)
'i think people should just try different things and stick to what works for them" how can most people (especially beginners) know the difference between what "works for them" and what they're just doing because it's the only way they've heard about? there are a lot of people who spent 2, 3, 4+ years trying to learn language in "traditional ways" (classes, tutors, workbooks etc), found the input method later, and say they got more progress understanding their target language in just 6 months to a year of focusing on comprehensible input, than all their previous years combined. i think that shows that a lot of people who are currently doing things the traditional way are actually missing out on a lot of progress they could be making if only they knew about a better way.
@@babygorl9541 that's why there should be more encouraging people to try out multiple methods before settling on one, which is what this comment was probably saying
How do you do it? I've wanted to become a language teacher to teach about language acquisition for a while, but I've started to think that it might be impossible
@@valentinwodolashski8046 It's insane, isn't it? Millions of students in the US are forced to attend Spanish class for multiple years, and none of become even remotely proficient in Spanish. But nobody says anything about it. It's just like, yep, that's our education system at work, what about it?
@@collinford4221 same stuff in Ukraine about most languages taught at most schools. So I even started to take it for granted that foreign languages are not supposed to be actually acquired at school. It's just one of ways to waste one's time it provides for
Interesting point about competition in the language class. I was taking classes in my target language this year, and I also used that environment in a positive way by training harder outside of class. I was always supportive of the other students though.
Oh, I'm looking forward to this. Is it a live stream or a pre recorded video? Also, if you would indulge me, just a quick question; if you're mute but still wanted to be able to hear, read and write Japanese what would your approach be? I've been wanting to focus on the reading and writing first as I'm not too comfortable in social situations as a result of that. People sometimes make it a point, maybe subconsciously, to either hone in exclusively on that or quite obviously try to ignore it making it awkward. Just wanted to see if you had some advice. It's such a different way of writing. I found it beautiful to look at, but a picture without meaning seems empty too so I was hoping to do something about that.
@@fancywrong6405 I guess it's the same with anything that's a bit different that you run into. I honestly don't believe anyone have any ill intentions or anything, But, it can get a bit tiresome and put a strain on any new friendships you're trying to form if that's the only (well, mostly) thing people see you as. I've found that's it's very easy for someone you meet to make snap decisions about whoever they meet, trying to fit them into preconceived boxes. And those same boxes are often quite difficult to break out of. Still though, after a while, if you stick to it trying to make it work, (if it's worth it) then people see you as you. It's still something I'm trying to get used to. So I figured I try something new, a different way in which to express myself. And what better way then do so in a completely new language.
@@Kalernor That's probably true. 😀 It'll be fun to watch. Who knows, they might just go over the best way to approach those same aspects; listening, reading and writing here too along with much else.
MIA all the way! I would say that you should just follow the same approach as everyone else doing MIA and maybe when you get to the output stage you can begin to write. But I would worry about that later. MIA is a great method for someone mute because it doesn't rely on you talking from the beginning. In fact, it relies on the opposite.
I'm a Spanish native speaker learning Japanese, and I love listening to Matt's speaking not only because the valuable content but also because his English is way better than tons of Americans I have listened to. 😮 No wonder why he is good at speaking Japanese. All his ideas are that very well structured that he never corrects himself when speaking.
So the fastest and most effective way to learn a language is to hire a private native teacher of that language with a curriculum tailored to your level of motivation, discipline, competence, and specific goals. Sounds about right
Its just very clear that Matt is correct on nearly all points. Pearl's point on outputting Chinese tones is well taken though, but that's very different than output as a whole. I can't remember which video, but Matt makes a point that there is only one correct way to respond to something, and although I think Matt would now recant that point, there's a lot of truth to it. Often in classes, teachers will correct a student with something which is already in their vocabulary or grammar established by the curriculum, but that often isn't a native response in that situation. Classes are valuable, but only after a significant amount of the language learning process has already happened.
@@FlowUrbanFlow At that point you memorise it. And see it used in context. Writing it down repeatedly will help. Apps that show you the symbol and you pick the correct answer helps. Being consistent is important because even if slowly you will make progress and it will become ingrained in your head.
@@raykings5244 You said read. You can't read words you don't know in Chinese or Japanese. You're suggesting flash cards or other for the actual learning now, which is my point.
I love the open discussion. It’s just like in grad school when my classmates and I would debate each other in class and go out for shakes afterwards. Love your channel Matt. I agree with you.... 90% 😆
In what language chinese school did you study?! 😊
@@simongrass1250 I went to a school in Harbin across from the university 哈工大, the language school was called 滨才 (Bincai). It was very cheap and great quality. None of my classmates were English speakers, so we had to use Chinese only to communicate.
Can you estimate how much money you've spent so far on schools / tutors etc in your Chinese and Japanese language learning paths?
@@shirobuta_ Yes, and it’s going to be a bit shocking. It was more than $15,000 for 8 years of Chinese and another $10,000 for 5 years of Japanese. BUT this amount includes my grad school tuition for both Fudan and Waseda University. So I got a degree out of it too. I’ve already gotten all that money back and much more from using the languages. It was an investment.
More content like this please 🙏
Love people that're able to disagree without seeing that as a personal attack.
Seems to be a rare skill today my friend!
What's happening?! At the slightest disagreement people are supposed to call each racist.
@@RonaldMcPaul 😁😁😂😂
Wholesome
Well, you could see some knives flying on the air at some point... But hey, no blood at least
The biggest problem about advocating for classes vs self study is anyone is able to watch native material in their target language with RUclips or a Netflix subscription, but not all of us are able to fly to that country, pay for 4 hour intensive classes, while busy studying for high school, college, or working.
don't forget the private tutor! lol yeah I wish I could afford a private tutor to add to my personal studies and get corrected on my writing or speaking abilities but that's pretty expensive
It's all a cash grab. If the world truly understood and accepted the input hypothesis, it would be a financial disaster; trillions of dollars lost in language learning.
@@オリバーオリバー-e4d very true. even the "correcting" stuff mostly takes care of itself by just getting enough input. in fact you don't even make most of those mistakes in the first place.
I also find that the smart people look for testimonials and quickly notice that there are barely any good Japanese speaking foreigners from traditional classes while immersion based learning has a ton of high level people.
@@オリバーオリバー-e4d That's the truth.
If fluent is speaking without any stops, I'm not even fluent in my native language! Shoot.
Same
lol of course you are. don't exaggerate.
Same here. I stop less often in English than in my native language.
Me too.
"Speak fluently" doesn't always mean "speak fluidly".
One possible explanation why I'm not very fluid in my own native language, would be that the overwhelming majority of my communication went (and still goes) in written form and that I have a lower-than-average tolerance for preciseness of thought expression, objective correctness, choice of words and so on. So when trying to meet my standards speaking more-or-less original thoughts in realtime, the pauses become inevitable.
Ha! Exactly. I have 5 degrees and I am currently a Biology Professor. There are still thousands of words I don't know. I'm leaning towards Matt's theory about listening. I sing and have a good ear so I am able to emulate tones pretty easily. However, not everyone has that ability, I would think some languages would give some people much more problems than others due to their tone-deafness. lol
I like Oriental Pearl but having felt the same way as her about 14-18 months ago, and now feeling different, I think that she draws weird conclusions from what she sees. e.g. "It's going to slow your pronunciation down quite a lot to not speak in the first 6 months..."
Well, if it's going to take your 3-5 years, no. If you're trying to produce Italian when you already speak fluent Spanish, maybe. But otherwise it's the equivalent to spending one hour fitting a turbo charger to a car that's going to drive a 24 hour race. It is a "waste" of the first hour, but you'll overtake the cars that jumped off the line straight away with no turbo.
Well said mate
oooh nice metaphor!
@@こなた-m1o Lamont is the best creator of metaphors on RUclips I swear
Good analogy!
Damn, you Matt. Always making me drop my immersion for your content haha
Haha glad I'm not the only one thinking this. He needs more japanese content to keep it going 😂
So true.
I'm glad that my target language is English haha
@@Gavf1918 Same here.
Literally what i was thinking
Theres more than one way to make an omelette but one of them's always gonna taste the best
I don't know about always but I get what you mean.
And some ways don’t make an omelette, they make an uncooked apple pie
I would argue that there's definitely wrong ways of making omelettes, for example if you put coal on it, i'm sure there won't be a single person that is going to find it delicious, but i don't think there's a right way either. Some people like it spicy, others prefer it kind of salty, ones want it very fried, and so on and so forth, therefore it all comes down to what your tastes are.
Well at the same time, one person may like their omelette one way and someone else another. Taste is subjective in the same way that we all learn differently.
Sounds like the biggest difference in their opinions comes from Matt studying without living in the country and Anming studying while living in the country. It's great to hear both perspectives!
Yh, I think staying in the country in the right environment will force you to use the language so you can't be like "yh, I can't start outputting yet".
Like you can't not.
@@k.5425 Matt was in japan for 6 months. He has 3 hour long video about his Japanese journey, I recommend watching it on 2x speed, it’s pretty entertaining
Imo they disagree on pretty much everything 😂 their whole approach and philosophy towards language learning is completely different, being in the country or not is honestly quite irrelevant to their views
I agree because she's forced to output early and her staying home watching anime wouldn't make sense in her living situation.
@@DengueBurger yh, I haven't watched his 3 hour video but I've heard him mentions it so many times. When he's usually giving an intro in like interviews or something.
I might eventually watch it. Or maybe not. Because I've watched so many of his videos, I know a lot already and it's probably stuff he's mentioned in the 3 hour video.
My take is that she describes what is probably the fastest way to learn a language, whereas Matt describes the easiest way to effectively learn a language.
I think language schools are impractical for most people because they are expensive and pretty inflexible to an individuals circumstances, but also useless if you already know what you are doing when it comes to language learning.
The only advantage I can see is commiting that much money and effort, plus having your teachers and peers eyes on you would probably be a pretty big motivator.
There is also what Steve Kaufmann said, "What's the rush"? There is nothing wrong with taking longer to learn a language. Not everyone is able to learn at such a high speed and intensity.
I went to an Italian Language immersion school in southern Italy and saw myself and others rapidly learn Italian. I had a small foundation of Italian before arriving but my roommate and many others had 0 Italian background. I watched my roommate go from 0 to be able to have conversations in the street with strangers in only 2 months. We did Italian lessons for 5 hours a day, 4 days a week and no English was ever used in the class. Even the text book was written entirely in Italian. Sounds crazy to some but it works extremely well.
it only worked because you were in Italy. doesnt work as fast or as well if you're not forced to speak and listen and read the language
@@Bayo106 Yes. I made a huge amount of progress with my Mandarin in China until I hit the point where I knew the language necessary to meet my needs at which point it got to be harder and harder to make progress as I wasn't being forced to do so. Plus, because I was in China, everything I did took a ton of time. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably hire one of the locals to go out with me and make me try to use the language. Which wasn't at the time hard to arrange, paying for drinks and meals or doing language exchanges would likely have been enough. I just hadn't though of doing so.
To this day, my Mandarin skills for buying things are quite good, even though the skills I have for making friends are basically non-existent. It was a large gap and I didn't have the time or energy to figure out how to get past it.
IMHO, the three main advantages to immersion are being forced to use the language, being able to soak it up constantly and being forced to develop creativity with how you use the language. The second is typically the easiest to manage without anybody's help.
Sounds expensive :(
Matt: follow a free guide involving watching language content frequently and you can get fluent
Oriental Pearl: go to an expensive, 20 hour per week language school, get a private tutor in addition, live in the country, and study in your free time, and you can get fluent
And then your sentences will be weird and pronunciation will still be really bad
It really depends. I went for a year to Brazil. My former employer hired me as a remote contractor, and I realized I was making more money this way than when I had worked from the office full-time. I also had enough spare time on my hands to follow a similar intensive curriculum and because I was not in Rio or Sao Paulo, the instruction was dirt cheap, but really high quality. No one spoke English, so I was forced to use Portuguese for everything from day 1. Finally, the people there were very open, engaging and talkative so you could not avoid random conversations even if you wanted to. As a result, one month in I was taken for a Portuguese. In six months I reached the upper-intermediate / advanced level at the school (university, really) I studied at and was routinely perceived as a local outside its doors. My journey was almost the opposite of what many people here preach: I first polished my pronunciation to remove any obstacles to production and then, in addition to school, actively learned situational chunks of vocab, for example before going to a barbershop or a hardware store, and activated it right in the process. That vocab stayed with me forever, even without SRS which I didn't use at the time. It's important to say that the culture itself was very conducive to a lot of input. As I said, it was impossible not to engage in conversations in lineups, elevators and simply in the street. And originally all I could do was nod and produce sounds demonstrating my interest and encouragement to continue. In that scenario, I don't see how or why you would not output from the get-go. You don't perpetuate any errors, because on the one hand you're corrected in classes and on the other you're always bombarded with real-life input that keeps you improving all the time. Unless you have very little self-awareness, you will rapidly improve without making any output errors permanent due to this rapid feedback loop
I'm genuinely curious how oriental pearl could parse out whether it was her classes or all the other supplements that were the core thing that is important for language acquisition. Like, which are the core components.
@@Jlukecampos well, that's the true point here: no ones JUST learns or JUST acquires a language. That dichotomy put forward by Stephen Krashen is a bit misleading. You can first learn something consciously, such as a grammatical rule, and then internalize it as an intuitive structure after producing a bunch of examples and being exposed to input containing this structure. Likewise, you can first be exposed to a structure through input, kind of get the hang of it and then learn the rule that explains it. No one just learns something consciously and is then bound to always perform the same conscious manipulations to arrive at an utterance. You eventually acquire what you learn and you learn what you acquire. Hence, you can really approach it from both ends
@@samuelx5466 lol which one? matt by far has a better accent (in japanese) yet oriental lives in the country and has a formal language education.
Check out the video we did on the Oriental Pearl Channel! ruclips.net/video/PbQerKaxs9s/видео.html
Circa 20:36 Matt’s face of disappointment at Oriental Pearl saying “JLPT N1 is beyond fluent”
@@DengueBurger "Youre way beyond fluency at N1" bruh...
I'd rather spend 6 hours watching TV shows than spend it traditionally studying, let alone paying for the classes
@Joshua Carrillo have you ever heard of a dictionary
@Joshua Carrillo you realize dictionaries have multiple entries, right....?
@Joshua Carrillo You realize learning a word with the bilingual definition gives a very vague meaning with missing nuance? You realize you can learn words without having to look them up via comprehensible input? That you have to listen a lot in order for your brain to properly parse the phonemes and sounds of the language? And you realize monolingual dictionaries exist? You're probably extremely low level in your TL if it takes 10 episodes for an hour of active study, and everyone has to go through that but once you've listened to enough gibberish for a couple hundred hours the sounds will be parsed and words will pop out and make sense in context after hearing them so many times.
@Joshua Carrillo What about german? I pickup words while watching tv and using an online dictionary. It gives you several examples in context. I learn words from tv through visual context. For example what's happening, body language, expression, how something is said. All these things help you to infer. I picked up the word weiter through just inferring based on context of the show. Then looked up the word and realized I was correct on the meaning. Simply because the context was comprehensive input. That was through watching one episode once. If you watch a german cooking show. The chef picks up a potato and says kartoffel. Then you just learned the word for potato through comprehensive input. If two people are running a track. One person is trying to spur their friend on. To keep going and finish saying weiter weiter weiter! Then you can infer it means something along the lines of more, further, keep going. That is another example of comprehensible input. Most words I've aquired through inference of context.
Well I tried watching TV shows in target from the start ( almost ). I was bored to death. So I quickly phased out, making the all thing pointless. Studying from textbooks, as imperfect as it is, gives you a structure and a sense of progression. You can still come back to immersion once you understand 60-70% of what is being said.
Plus MIA is designed by and for the unemployed who can afford spending most their days in front of TV shows.
If MIA suits your needs and gives you the results you want, I am glad. But when it's sold as the universal best language learning method ever, I take issue. I get better results from a textbook at the beginning, and it's actually more fun for me that way, and less frustrating.
I'm not just impressed by Matt's japanese but also his English. The way he speaks and expresses himself and his choice of words are all perfect and not even a single stutter.
Not only do I wish to be as good as him in japanese but also in English. I feel like no matter how much I input in English I'll always stutter and use the wrong word here and there.
edit:
ALSO STAR LIGHT. YEAH YOU WITH THE MITSUHA PIC. I SEE YOU EVERYWHERE AND I KNOW YOU'RE READING THIS COMMENT.
haha actually I stutter quite a bit if you listen carefully. Also, the worst stutters have been edited out.
@@mattvsjapan After reading the last line -
Me - 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think languages reinforce each other. My english ability has increased from studying japanese.
I'm of the view that the input hypothesis is fundamentally correct and that only input-based approaches will really get you far in language acquisition. That said, if you want to actually speak a language *well*, and speak it in an articulate and eloquent way, then you do need to practice speaking (this won't impact your language comprehension or understanding, of course, because that's all input). But this is true of our native languages as well; almost all people who speak very well such as motivational/public speakers, actors, debaters, etc. have gone through significant output practice. And Matt has gotten much more comfortable and articulate even in English as he's put out more videos over time.
Watch any uncut interviews with Matt and you'll see he stutters a lot, like the KoreKara podcast.
Love your channel, Matt! I'm a native Japanese, but I grew up in Europe, and besides Japanese, I'm fluent in English and German, and I'm on my way to becoming fluent in Russian. I only recently discovered your channel but looking back I realize that what I've been doing all my life is just these 2 things you're always going on about: immersion and learning vocabulary/phrases. You only need to focus and give 100% on these two things and you'll eventually become fluent, and that's the only ticket, pretty much! Everything else (like learning grammar) is extra. And I started over 20 years ago, when I was in my teens.... Cheers and all the best!
The more I keep seeing my hot sons out there doing their own thing makes me proud as an online RUclips dad. Both of you are being able to have a debate and disagree without taking it personally. Wish the internet showcased more people like this vs the later. Good job you two! Papa is 大変プラウドだ！！！
kono energy desuuuuuu
Thanks Dad!
Awesome video Matt! I love how well spoken you are, it's really engaging and pleasant to listen to. Also, the way you're able to disagree with someone without making it seem like you're above them is just an amazing skill that more people should know. This friendly debate between you and Anming was just amazing and I'm so happy that you've bee able to upload more videos again.
The thing is though, all of her ways to combat the negative effects of her method, require a HUGE amount of resources that many people don't have. Not everyone can afford a class that has a teacher that knows what their doing with a classroom size of 5.
I agree. Matt's ideas are so much more accessable to anyone who has the motivation to learn
@@haroombe123 Completely agree with the last line. Btw, are you Indian ?
@@haroombe123 Ohhh. What language you are learning ?
@@haroombe123 Okay.
Yah she said she had 2 hours of class plus a tutor. Most of us don't have that time.
I think the difference is:
language learning classes in the country where you’re with other adults who want to be good
vs
language learning classes in high school and even college where it goes slow and half the class doesn’t care too much.
Yh, because in primary to high school french was compulsory abd we did roughly 9 years of French and none of us can boast of being fluent.
So, because it was compulsory, we didn't care much, it was more like any other subject "oh, we just need to take this class"
Whereas in university, I've made a lot of progress in Spanish within the year because I actually want to learn the language
The thing is language classes, regardles of location, are taught by adult native speakers, who most likely never learned a second language to near native. The class philosophy is basically:" ok im a native and i habe this huge mass of language in my head. So if i wanna teach them, i just tell them all about the words and grammar. If they cram it enough theyll speak like me" its completely backwards, it ignores that this is not how humans acquire languages AT ALL. matts method actually takes this into account and instead proscribes thousands of ours of immersion as the number one ingredient. Without that ingredient you will never be native like no matter what you do.
@@sklanguage589 Yeah, it's the worlds most common story xD worse is, when the problem continues in language schools, where people pay up the a** and get nothing from it.
And high school classes literally only care about grammar tests and memorising vocabulary lists, no context at ALL. It’s like they’re designed specifically to not teach you the language lol
日本語の森 kinda takes a similar approach, where you learn the language in the language, additionally her way of learning is heavily gated to the privilaged and wealthy. Not everyone has money to go to a country, enroll into multiple language schools.
Yeah, that method is not scalable at all. But it's not necessarily wealthy because some countries have free universities that have exchange programs with other countries. But it's definitely privileged, I think internet access in the world is much bigger than access to college.
@@Wilpsn well she also said she didn't like university classes. She advocates for language schools with very small class sizes, which are pretty expensive most of the time.
@@justincain2702 get a job
@@malikbooker9187 do you think jobs is all what it takes to pay off shit? My tuition in school is 15k a semester do you think a 9/5 is enough to sustain me? use common sense for once please. And before you rebuttal with doing multiple jobs use common sense on why that would be counter productive for your time spent learning.
Matt... You're a mad genius. I love your ideas. They even did change me as a person. Thank you.
Me too, my concept of learning changed a lot since I started following Matt ideas
Dude your name is spilling off my screen
Language classes are good except all the bad ones.
Some of the bad ones are the best.
I think it's got more to do with what you expect out of the class and how you're working it into your effort. I've had lousy ones and great ones, and I think the main difference was me. In most cases, there wasn't really anything different other than my attitude towards. The main exception was Mandarin, where both schools I dealt with seemed to think that finishing the book was the goal, whether or not I actually learned anything from it.
Classes can be a great way of building up a basic framework of how the language works and getting practice with basic competency.
on the topic of fluency, i feel i agree that its a loaded word and only means what you want it to mean for you. im a native english speaker and ive read books where i could read an entire page and not understand 75% of whats being said. i feel fluency is less about the amount of knowledge ive acquired and more about the amount of thinking i have to do in order to output that knowledge. for instance i could explain computers to someone for hours without having to stop and make sure im remembering correctly. but if i started talking about biology of the animal kingdom, i would struggle to find anything to say that i feel i know as fact without looking it up and digesting the information and then translating it into something that makes sense to me.
I agree with you, we actually don't get fluent in a language but in topics, for example in my native language (Spanish) there are many things that are hard to me to talk about, like technology, but somehow I feel confident talking about that topic in English lol
On Stephen Crashen and comprehensible input: I have never interpreted his work as discouraging the acquirer from speaking at an early stage but simply that the acquirer should not be pressured to speak before they are ready. This ties together with foreign language anxiety and the affective filter which is a huge part of the comprehensible input theory. If you’re feeling stressed or anxious in the classroom or situation you’re in your ability to acquire the input will be limited, according to the theory. But if you enjoy talking and feel ready to try I don’t recall krashen ever having spoken against it.
Problem with a lot of foreign language classrooms is that students are often pressured to speak when they are in fact not ready yet, causing them a less optimal environment for acquisition.
I personally enjoy talking to people from a pretty early stage and learning that way comes much more naturally to me than binge watching a bunch of media content. And let’s not forget that conversations provide comprehensible input all the same as listening and reading materials :)
I'm going through his book on his Taiwan speeches atm, Krashen isn't opposed to early output, and in fact sees the positives.
I think the key point people may mistake is Krashen claims output doesn't *improve* anything. However it's heavily related to his "affective filter hypothesis"/or Chomsky's "language acquisition device", which is essentially our perception that we're part of the "group" (language speakers) which can accel growth, and you'll receive more input through speaking (hopefully to people who are native/properly fluent)
Oriental Pearl: "There's more than one way to make an omelette."
A timeless phrase: "One can't make an omelette without breaking eggs."
They both add up.
I totally agree with OrientalPearl on the importance of "correction". If there's no one who corrects your mistakes, mistakes will become permanent habbits.
That's why I totally agree with Matt on the importance of input. Because no English teacher will follow you 24/7 and correct every single mistake that you make. That's why it's important to develop the ability to "sense" your own mistakes. That's what you get by lots of input, the intuitive feeling of "this doesn't sound right".
Yeah. . . I'm with Matt. Speaking early and corrections didn't help me out the first time around (Even in a small class with a great teacher). It took lots of input (specifically audio input) to course correct and reach a solid intermediate level.
I just keep thinking of that Stephen Krashen video where he speaks in german, while drawing pictures, and I understand every single thing he said. And I don't know a lick of german. So, I'm going with Matt's (or Stephen Krashen's) methods this time.
i also agree with the point about inputs but i wonder how to go from that to actually using the language.
I consider myself to understand the language i’m learning to around 80%, in speech and writing however I can’t seem to get myself to speak or writing it confidently...
Great discussion and it's nice to see both of you being so cordial! I am sure her intentions were good and she was trying to use it in good faith, but the "there's more than one way to make an omelette" argument is an example of why analogies/metaphors used incorrectly in a discussion can be so deceptive as she never felt the need to explain exactly why that is the case - just because you can conjure up a metaphor that serves to describe your point doesn't actually make your point. Analogies/metaphors are used for explanatory purposes, not proofs. Again, she definitely seemed to have pure intentions and she could very well have a good explanation for why she believes her metaphor to accurately reflect the reality of language acquisition, but a bald metaphor doesn't go a long way in accomplishing that.
I also think Matt's point of her having reached a high level of fluency in spite of early output could have been expanded upon. Given the complete absence of an internal "natural pronunciation/speech detector" before you have heard thousands of hours listening to natively spoken language, imagining all of the ways there are to get structure/pronunciation/word appropriateness wrong boggles the mind, and imagining any teacher or tutor, regardless of their patience level, being able to properly correct every single nuance that indicates non-native speech is completely unreasonable. You therefore are bound to end up with mistakes that simply weren't filtered out and, to Matt's point, you will only rid yourself of those mistakes insofar as you are able to subsequently develop an internal sense of how the language should sound via input - in which case why not just develop that innate sense of correctness beforehand and avoid this issue altogether?
Anyway, great discussion and you have to be impressed with her ability to tackle Chinese and then still have the motivation to do it all over again with Japanese. I can definitely see her point of comradery in a classroom setting enabling this sustained level of motivation. It definitely seems to be the case that a big portion of what makes a method the "best" is whether it keeps you motivated long enough to actually get enough exposure in the language, and I think she made that point very well!
My experience with English was pretty similar to Matt's with japanese, although it had some differences: I've never studied english, but I've been exposing myself to it since I was 10 or less, because I always liked to watch things in their original language. In the beginning of this year, I decided to really try hard on English, and started using some methods to kick off my speaking, and I noticed that at I knew fairly well what to say, but I couldn't say it properly and in the speed I wanted to. Then after some weeks of practicing, I noticed I had improved A LOT in pronunciation, speed and even in speaking in a more natural way. Most of the knowledge was already there, I only had to learn how to use it.
Not only do I have the exact same background as you, but I'm now facing the same challenge also. What has been your approach to bettering your speach and pronunciation?
@@LucasAraujo-fm8lu I started by reading texts out loud, then I downloaded some language exchange apps to talk to native people. Sometimes I'd even "think loud" in english haha.
"Getting pretty good at Japanese as well" Low key burn
Yh, I think Matt won this debate. I don't think Oriental's points were bad per se but Matt is clearly more versed on the subject matter, which is something you would expect from someone who has researched the "linguistics and acquisition" aspect of language learning quite intensively and took it that extra step further.
@@haroombe123 I also found her 'definition of fluency" very interesting. By her logic, I wouldn't be fluent even in my native language. Because I certainly pause a lot when expressing my ideas and I cannot talk about politics
because at the end of the day... there's more than one way to make an omelette
That’s why I chain my chef to the kitchen, Let’s see him try to get out of this one...
Is it just me, or was anybody else waiting for these two to start making an omelette already .... 😂
I'm too busy skinning cats to cook.
Take a shot every time she says omelette
To be fair, omelette’s are delicious.
She must have been ovulating.
Get it? 🤣
I feel hungover just reading this comment.
I cant listen to all this egg talk
I follow both of you and your abilities are exceptional--so, in a way, this shows that your approaches work for you and could work for others. Years ago, I took an intensive language course at a national defence language school here in Ottawa--and after a year, my speaking ability was very high. I was taught by a native speaker and worked on the language 7 days a week. I have learned several languages over the years--and my own takeaway is that a combination of up-front knowledge of language structure, vocabulary, and at least some grammar serves as a great foundation for immersion and accelerated learning. I've been trying Matt's approach to Japanese in the last year and a half--and I have to say that I've learned more about Japanese than I expected, although at this point, my speaking ability is not what I want it to be. I'm just starting to enter the active stage of my language journey. What I do find is that my speaking ability, while still stilted and sub par, is advancing very, very quickly because of all the listening and reading I've done. Certainly, this immersive approach has been more entertaining---listening to native speakers on television shows and in movies and modelling my sentences on the utterances of native speakers has been worthwhile and reassuring. Thanks so much to you both for your interesting discussion. I do think that a better definition of "fluent" is required. For me right now, I consider fluent something akin to being able to speak in a reasonably flowing manner on demand and on various topics--using language that is not too simple.
neither is "right" or "wrong".
there is no "perfect" or "best" method that works for everyone.
each person learns best with the methods that are right for them.
"That bad input" that's a good definition, and I think this bad input can make a lot harm on your knowledge in the target language on the long term. I'm from Brazil, and here most English classes in school are 100% grammar and 100% useless, not only because of the content, but also the teachers, who are never fluent, and some of them can't even reach a basic level, which is the case of my english teacher: she speaks English so bad that I always feel stuck when I try to speak English on the same day of her class.
Maybe it depends on the person? When I was a kid, apparently I started talking very late but with little to no mistakes for my age, whereas my little brother was talking way earlier but with a bunch of mistakes. We both are of course fluent now and had no problems as children.
I'm learning English and your videos are helping me a lot. thanks
You seem to talk so well though, I wonder what it is that you feel like you need to improve on
@@JapanWalkerJJ Well I guess that my vocabulary need to improvement. My speak it's not good because I don't have anyone to practicing.
@@caiosantos9986 Ah okay now I see. I'll help you out a little bit.
Well I guess my vocabulary needs some improvement*
OR
Well I guess my vocabulary needs to improve*
(Improvement is a noun. Improve is a verb.)
My speech is not good because I don't have anyone to practice with*
@@JapanWalkerJJ Thank you very much for the correction👌
Tá no caminho certo
I took a semester of Japanese at my university after Id been self studying for about 6 months (not immersion learning, just going through the genki books) and like Matt says, it was extremely slow paced and much of class time was listening to other students struggle to say very basic things. The following semester I studied abroad in Japan and took a semester of Japanese classes (4 classes, broken into conversation, listening, writing, and grammar). These classes were taught entirely in Japanese and I was one of the lowest level students in the class. I got a lot out of the class because it put a lot of pressure on me to get better so I could actually understand what was going on (the first month was really stressful since I couldnt understand what my professors were saying hardly at all) and I learned a lot of cultural nuance from my Japanese teachers that I might have picked up on without someone to teach me. That being said, I dont think the lessons themselves were all that useful. I think I promptly forgot most of what I learned in them, or at least a good portion, and we still spent a lot of time listening to other novice Japanese learners speaking instead of native content. It sounds like the kind of language school Oriental Pearl is talking about is pretty hard to come by if you're unable to travel at will. I was in an extremely fortunate and very unusual circumstance when I did my study abroad and dont expect I would have such an opportunity again. That is the reality for most people, I think, and especially adults that dont have any family support structure.
Oriental Pearl: Rule following, logic-based memorization, and classes.
Matt: Embodied Cognition, Skill-acquisition, and language acquisition.
The obvious choice is Matt's usage of skill/language acquisition.
His choice is so much more appealing lol. Language is not reay a logical thing
I think one thing most people don't consider is that people are different. Some people prefer one way because they are more comfortable with that. If you force yourself to do something it will be automatically less effective.
Thanks for this video! Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with different methods, society in general needs to hear more of this kind of constructive debates
I don't really see the debate points being much different from each other. Other than she "likes" to have someone to motivate her hence the fact of going to Language school.
Self study is all dependent on self motivation and the adaptation to improve. The main difference I do see that you matt have a higher standard than oriental pearl does and the understanding of "言語の学びが終わらない” Which is very essential not just in Language learning, but also in life(Improving on something or onesself).
マットさん、これからも頑張ってください！ I love watching your videos and Oriental pearls! Keep up the awesome work both of you!
Acquisition is where it is at I was in high school German 42 years ago. We did like that one school where the teacher used hand gestures and wrote on the board. We never had textbooks. I had an opportunity recently to speak some in German. I am amazed at how much I retained. I say that was because I acquired it rather than learned it.
I can listen to Japanese all day, but reading 2 pages of Japanese book becomes really hard for me.
You'll get there with time. Watch shows with Japanese subs if you aren't already, it'll build you up to reading books. Just started my first Japanese light novel and it's challenging, but I'm making progress.
@@derpydayha and how you are dealing with unfamiliar kanji?
Do you mean you can understand spoken Japanese pretty well? In that case, I wonder if it would help your reading comprehension to say the sentences out loud as you read! And I suppose an added bonus of that would be getting more familiar with the feeling of speaking Japanese yourself, as well.
I can really see both sides of the argument. I think they both make valid points and that their advice is catered to different types of people with different circumstances. Loved the video! Would love to see more debate/discussion based videos like these ! ❤️
I do, but it's pretty clear that Matt had the stronger place to argue from and that she was reaching a bit to try and refute his claims.
Some comments are very disrespectful towards Oriental Pearl, her methods are viable and aren't put here for mockery.
Even though I've done both methods, I do think self-stufy is way better.
My favourite debate so far! Anming is great and I love her way of thinking!
I think a point you overlook is that not everyone can have such a high lvl of motivation like you Matt and early classes help you make the first steps towards this huge montain, it's also helped me with grammar that I struggled to study by myself, but I did quit before the end of the program to go MIA style but I don't regret langage class for getting started. Also the pace is very fast in langage school in Japan, people go for N3 or N2 (depending if they are chinese or not :p) after 18 months/ 2 years
This is a pretty important point and few people on Matt's channel get it, because they are all hard-core learners.
I took classes and once the classes were over I stopped learning for 5 years. Using classes to substitute your motivation will not work in the long run to learning a language.
More recently I started doing immersion and I have made more progress in 6 months than I did of 3 semesters of classes, and years of Rosetta stone, duolingo, pimslur, and textbooks.
I spent roughly 10 years trying all sorts of different things but wasn't consistent in any of them. I have since learned over 1000 kanji in the past 6 months and I am making great progress and having fun doing so.
Indeed. I agree about special topics. I have been a science and critical thinking teacher for 20 years. Most of my students are fluent in their native language of English, but once we start discussing particular topics outside of their area, it is as if they heard me speaking a foreign language. I even have Chinese students that I tutor and when I have them look up the Chinese for the science topics we are covering, the most common response is, "I don't even know these words in my own language". Yet, they are fluent. :-)
As someone who is currently studying Japanese in a language school in Tokyo, I agree with Matt 100%. I learned English with the same method but with Japanese, I wanted to "shorten" the path of acquiring the language by attending a language school but it seems it was the worst idea ever.
Didn't Matt's ability after five years include being able to read classical Japanese and have a larger passive vocabulary than people his age?
I think he's basing 5 years off of his extremely high level, but she's basing it off of basic fluency
@@furretar6484 Yeah, discounting pitch accent, Matt's level after five years was incredibly high. Not sure how good she was after five years but I have heard her speak and imo she is far from being as good as Matt in speaking at least, and I am betting her reading and listening fluency is also far from Matt's. Not saying she isn't good for a foreigner, but I guess her goals aren't set as high as Matt's either.
@@MrMickeei yeah, matt hit fluency after 3 years but the level he's at now after 5
Essentially, the argument here is over how much pipe needs to be laid before really starting to express oneself in the language. I personally took a year of German classes at a local college, and then spent a bunch of time just listening to the radio. I've still got a long ways to go, but I'm at a point where I can generally understand radio and TV without too much trouble. I do miss a bunch, but I'm at a point where I'm learning vocabulary purely from context, the way that a native speaker would.
But, I'm incredibly shy, so I've barely ever spoken to any native speakers. For introverts and people who have issues with anxiety, it might make more sense to start talking as soon as possible, but that's mainly because the longer you go without doing it, the more of a cliff you face when you do decide to start talking.
@@MrMickeeishe sounds awful in japanese tbh
It is not much of a debate when one party comes armed with researched, well-evidenced arguments and the other has purely anecdotal conjectures.
100% this
Destroyed!
Master's student vs a guy who left college without finishing the degree. It would probably be hard for linguists to take these new theories seriously without some academic training and credentials.
@@toucan8898 are you saying that college education correlates to intelligence? Lol
@@toucan8898 You prove my point by using the appeal to authority fallacy.
Intelligent and interesting discussion. Thank You both.
I didn't feel the time passing :)
what a nice conversation! Thanks to both of you.
From financial perspective, I'd agree more towards Matt method. It's really costly to travel and pay for tuitions as they're mostly very expensive (at least for me).
"People learn differently" is a catchphrase when people can't accept immersion is the only way.
I absolutely loved this debate. As someone who barely understands any Japanese but speaks and reads even less and conscientiously puts effort into pronunciation, and as well as someone who is learning organic chemistry at the moment (which is considered almost like learning a language), it's very interesting to see who I agree with more on each topic.
That was a very informative video, Anne and Matt. Thank you both for doing this.
I think there was some confusion about what fluency means.
I can't speak with any certainly on topics like; Science, Politics and Religion simply because I've not studied extensively about those topics in my own language.
There are jargon specific words and concepts I've never heard of before.
Dose that mean I'm not fluent in my own language?
Of course not, there needs to be some clarity on this as otherwise no one is fluent in any language as no one person knows everything and how that is expressed.
Once again, thank you for uploading this and I didn't mean anything bad by it just thought it was something that stood out to me.
Hope you're both well. See you next time. 😀
I think the point is more-so that some people can only hold a conversation about a few everyday topics. They can speak very well on the 5 topics they know, but nothing else really. Somewhere inbetween the extremes of knowing 3 topics and knowing all topics is the sweet spot, I guess. The term "fluent" is pretty useless in most aspects though, since everyone has a different definition as they mentioned.
I have learned English on my own for years. I had taken English lessons for 3month. But she didn't point out my mistakes. So I didn't improve. An another tutor pointed out my mistakes too many times and I felt down. When I translate the English textbook with Japanese translation, I get to know my mistakes without frustration. So I like self study.
Both sides presented good arguments. I can find similarities in my experience learning Japanese with Matt's so I should be aware of my bias.
I barely spoke any Japanese for my first few years. I took university classes, studied far beyond curriculum requirements, and got at least a few hours of listening input every day. Long story short: I had some Japanese friends that I only spoke to in English. They moved back to Japan. One day, one of them called and spoke with me in Japanese. Neither of us realized until a few minutes into the conversation that I was (only) speaking Japanese too now. It just came out naturally. The friend couldn't believe what was going on. This was about two years into my experience. I guess my understanding was gradually improving all along, but in terms of language output, I think I went from beginner to intermediate like a light switch.
I'd say I achieved an advanced level after five years. It took me a few years of living and working in Japan, self study, and regular exposure to different situations. Have you ever taken part in Japanese funerals? I've done several. How about treat a person that fell off a building, call emergency services, stay and keep them awake until help arrives? Yes… I think having an “input loaded” learning experience helped me react accordingly in various situations.
After my tenth year, I hadn't met any non-natives (who study Japanese) that spoke as well as me. Yes, there are celebs and RUclipsrs (Matt and Dogen included) better than me, but I still consider myself in the top percentile. Being able to produce language well and quickly is ideal, but one thing that was interestingly not mentioned in this video: BUDGET
This was a little painful to watch. Matt is obviously light years ahead of Oriental Pearl in his understanding of theory and methodology. The fact that she had no idea who Steven Krashen is said it all. She also kept saying "I don't have any bad habits in Chinese" over and over again but her Chinese pronunciation is mediocre. I'm also so over all these people who make videos about locals reacting to them speaking their language. "White Girl Speaks Chinese to Restaurant Owner!" All this stuff is stupid clickbait nonsense that offers no value aside from pumping the ego of the video maker and continuing to perpetuate how "exotic" asians are. Imagine an Asian person making a channel of street reactions of them speaking bad English and you'll realize how stupid this is.
Kudos to Matt for making exceptional content about language learning methodology that is unrivaled.
Yes so glad someone said this!
I disagree. Those videos are fun and inspire people.
Yes, I am a native Chinese speaker and a Japanese learner. Matt's level of Japanese is truly native whereas Oriental Pearls, even judging from her latest videos, is still middle/high school level. That might be harsh but it is simply reality. Middle/high school level is great for an american btw, like top 3% of foreign speakers.
For example, Matt could easily have a debate about economic policies, politics, and working culture in Japan, whereas I would bet a lot of money the woman in the video could not.
I agree with Pearl and Matt but ultimately that there are many ways to learn a language. Perhaps they should have debated primarily for the the efficiency of their method. In which case I'd agree with Matt. There's nothing like choosing the material you want to immerse in and learn at a pace dictated by your dedication rather than a school and it's students ability.
You guys both have really valid points.. I took Japanese in middle school and high school, watched anime and Japanese TV shows, and lived in Japan for over a year now- all without any output. I still suck at speaking because I lack the self motivation that I think going to a language school would provide me. However, in the few phrases that I do say to fellow Japanese co-workers, they say that my intonation/accent sounds very natural. I think this is the result of absorbing input and gaining that intuition of how Japanese is supposed to sound, like Matt says. But, I also agree with Oriental Pearl that for some people, going to a school would give you those 2 benefits of motivation and a teacher to correct you. It's difficult to find the "correct" or "natural" answer on the internet or just from listening as there are different dialects or even expressions that simply can't be defined in a textbook. I.e. in America, people say "word" to agree with something. Imagine trying to understand the nuance of using "word" as a foreign learner of English.
I feel like, at least for Chinese, speaking early on is really beneficial because for me, speaking helps a lot with remembering the tones of the words
As someone who eats omelettes everyday, I agree with both of you. Specially where you guys disagree. 😅
I think one explanation as to why you disagree about formal classes and yet have both achieved high levels of proficiency in your L2s is that if a formal teacher is speaking 90% or more in the target language, the "teaching" itself becomes input. So although the teacher is trying to employ conventional "learning" techniques (which have pretty much been established to be sub-optimal) the content itself becomes a means to acquire the language. For example, a teacher may try to explain a grammar rule, which in itself will have only minimal direct benefits to the student, but the sentences that the teacher employs to explain the grammar rule themselves become input which feeds the students "language machine", leading to acquisition.
I cant know who is right, unless I knew japanese and Chinese to judge their levels.
Even if one was better it wouldn't prove they are right.
Whoever advocates the same method you used to get fluent at your own native level is right. I think it's quite obvious.
Both of them are high-level speakers of one of those langauges. But that wouldn't directly prove anything
@@leonardodavinci4259 the thing about massive immersion is even if you spend your first 2 years in a language just studying it,if after that you spend 8 years of heavy immersion you will reach top fluency (not saying thats exactly what she did just random numbers off the top). You're right it doesn't prove anything. But if you take extremes, it is impossible to reach a native like level with just classical teaching methodolies, whereas some1 who does 100% just pure input will always acquire the highest result eventually... that's why i dont believe in her method, if you ask me, every successful language learner just ended up doing MIA at some point without knowing it, regardless of how they started.
@@afonsomendes6907 Yes true, massive input and exposure will get anyone to fluency eventually. Matt even says you don't even need to srs. People reached fluency before there were ever srs systems like anki exc. You can just watch tv shows over as a form of natural srs. Look up words with an online dictionary.
I agree with Matt that the skill building method is limited. Absolutely! I learn naturally as well ❤️ But I agree with Pearl about the "fluency".
I think Matt’s approach gives hope to people without the resources to attend the high quality classes mentioned by Oriental Pearl. Beliefs drive behaviour, if people understood and trusted the power of immersion they would improve. So many immigrants in North America feel hopeless about learning English because they can’t pay or attend classes, and then they spend the majority of their time off-work immerse in their native language watching news, tv, entertainment, etc talking to friends and family, etc. They could empower themselves by dedicating some of their time to enjoyable English immersion.
what I learned from this video: at the end of the day, there are different ways to make an omelette
Matt I'm on your side, you're down to earth.
So... Basically...
Matt: free self study
Pearl: pay thousands to get there
pay thousands to get there faster in more than one language
@@malikbooker9187 faster? 😂🤣🤣🤣🤣 Matt can read advanced novels at the speed of a native after 5 years. I doubt she was able to do that.
@@thebrokenmystic879 and he has been studying for more than 8 years sooo
@@malikbooker9187 but when he was able to read novels he was barely at 5 years, even check his reddit posts from many years ago. I doubt she can do that even now. Point made.
@@malikbooker9187 They both achieved great levels dont get me wrong, but considered matt has never even payed for one single course, and has not lived in japan like pearl has...I think Matt is more practical.
I'm happy to see this video, I have found the answers on some of my questions.
Totally agree that there should be invented new terms for language learning.
Love you both guys, thank you for your work
My Chinese is at that level An Ming described where I can clumsily describe almost anything I want to convey, but not nicely, and I lack the advanced content that lies beyond lower intermediate (politics, religion, business etc). In my experience of being at that level I never once would think to apply the adjective 'fluent' to myself!
But that is what fluent is. Fluent and being native like are two different things
Matt´s method is the natural way how children learn languages, as babies all we get at the start is input, comprehension is the key, then a couple years later in average we start talking then school where we learn to read and wright the natural progression but as adults we can learn all kinds of ways.
Oriental has really beautiful eyes 😍
so does matt :)
@@raenastra Brother from another mother. 😂😂 ভাই কোনো ভাষা শিখছেন কি ?
I had to zoom out on youtube because they were starting too far into my soul
Simp
yeah, reflecting all that kanji/hanzi knowledge we seek, haha
I love this video series Matt! I started to make videos in Português for Brazilians and I have reached a comfortable level of fluency entirely from self study after a year (started January 2020). I also learned Japanese in high school like you did but didn't continue my studies to fluency, yet. I like all the points you guys brought up in this video. I don't have a lot of subscribers like the people you usually bring on, but it would definitely be a great goal for me to be in one of these interviews one day! I can describe how I was able to learn Português so quickly from zero without the need for formal courses or studies. じゃねー
Matt I think you are right on this. I am native Mandarin speaker. After checking some of her videos, whether seeing from the Taiwanese or Chinese accent of the language, I have to say her accent is just so far from perfect compared to what I have seen non-natives speaker speaking. Those people will still from time to time make certain minor mistakes (untypical of native speakers) and the general flow and intonation/accent feels right. But her speaking, hmm, if it’s not for her saying having being an advanced and fluent user in Mandarin (which I sort of believe she may be), I would mistake her as an at best intermediate level learner... so, yeah, it seems like speaking too early on did bring her a lot of deeply rooted bad habits
To really get into learning methods, requires testing on ordinary people, and not what works best for these two gifted individuals.
The main reason I think Matt's approach is better is because it seems more practical for regular people. The other way sounds sooooooo expensive. I'm learning Korean but I can't afford to move to Korea, go to a Korean language school for 4 hours every day and then hire a private tutor for 2 more hours every day. Also I'm studying to be an English teacher in college and we learned in one of my classes last semester that a silent period should be allowed and encouraged for the first year after a student moved to the US and that we should never force them to speak early
I absolutely loved this video. It was so great to hear both sides. I think you both have great points! I'm already subscribed to Anming and now your channel.
In all honesty it feels like Oriental Pearl might be more inclined to disagree with the comprehensible input method because of the time she invested in the traditional methods. As someone who has tried both and has recently dropped language learning classes (dedicated classes outside of college or school and after attending for over a year) I can say that you can get more out of 30 minutes of listening than you can out of a 2 hour class. I feel like the problem for many beginners is that A) They don't know where to start and how to structure their studying/listening and B) Self-study might not be as motivating or as exciting as taking classes with an actual native speaker. Even though Matt's website Refold details the optimal process (in my opinion), it is a process that I went through naturally and that I wish I knew (or believed in) from the start. As someone who speaks a second language fluently and that has witnessed the wild variances between the people that speak English here I can say that the biggest difference was and always will be exposure to that language and its media (input). I rarely if ever spoke in class and my language ability was greater than most due to consumption alone (all input no output).
Also want to add that people's language ability and the place that they are at on the fluency spectrum is completely self-determined and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
the last part was very interesting - im conversationally quite fluent in japanese when it comes to topics i love and engage in everyday (games, exercise, movies), but as soon as it gets out of that realm... ええと何だけ every five seconds 😭 dogen talks about this too, and I think thats just natural for any language learner because ultimately we tend to block out the information we don’t use or care as much about, even in our own native tongue, despite having acquired it
何だっけ
My definition of fluency is if you're at the same level of your native language in your target language: listening, comprehension, output ability, etc., except for your accent, that's ok to not be "perfect".
As a self learner, I can't stand schools, I have my own pace and way of studying/learning. Actually, if I do it myself, I am more motivated, than someone giving me orders how to do it.
i think people should just try different things and stick to what works for them! Language acquisition is not a race. Also, Learning is not linear and everyone excels at learning a different way. Its great to see differing opinions and what works for some people and what doesn't though. However, I think a lot of people think SO hard about the BEST way to do something that they spend more time learning how to study a language than actually studying the language. (and of course what is available and possible to you to learn a language, ect. I think its all purely subjective honestly)
'i think people should just try different things and stick to what works for them" how can most people (especially beginners) know the difference between what "works for them" and what they're just doing because it's the only way they've heard about?
there are a lot of people who spent 2, 3, 4+ years trying to learn language in "traditional ways" (classes, tutors, workbooks etc), found the input method later, and say they got more progress understanding their target language in just 6 months to a year of focusing on comprehensible input, than all their previous years combined. i think that shows that a lot of people who are currently doing things the traditional way are actually missing out on a lot of progress they could be making if only they knew about a better way.
@@babygorl9541 that's why there should be more encouraging people to try out multiple methods before settling on one, which is what this comment was probably saying
Wow this is so cool, I’m excited to watch this !
Being an adherent of Matt's MIA, but working as a language teacher... (':
How do you do it? I've wanted to become a language teacher to teach about language acquisition for a while, but I've started to think that it might be impossible
@@collinford4221 I am not sure whether it's possible either :')
@@collinford4221 since people seem to live in some kind of illusion
@@valentinwodolashski8046 It's insane, isn't it? Millions of students in the US are forced to attend Spanish class for multiple years, and none of become even remotely proficient in Spanish. But nobody says anything about it. It's just like, yep, that's our education system at work, what about it?
@@collinford4221 same stuff in Ukraine about most languages taught at most schools. So I even started to take it for granted that foreign languages are not supposed to be actually acquired at school. It's just one of ways to waste one's time it provides for
Interesting point about competition in the language class. I was taking classes in my target language this year, and I also used that environment in a positive way by training harder outside of class. I was always supportive of the other students though.
Oh, I'm looking forward to this. Is it a live stream or a pre recorded video?
Also, if you would indulge me, just a quick question; if you're mute but still wanted to be able to hear, read and write Japanese what would your approach be?
I've been wanting to focus on the reading and writing first as I'm not too comfortable in social situations as a result of that. People sometimes make it a point, maybe subconsciously, to either hone in exclusively on that or quite obviously try to ignore it making it awkward.
Just wanted to see if you had some advice.
It's such a different way of writing.
I found it beautiful to look at, but a picture without meaning seems empty too so I was hoping to do something about that.
Wow, interesting problem
Judging from the video description I believe it is a pre-recorded video.
@@fancywrong6405 I guess it's the same with anything that's a bit different that you run into. I honestly don't believe anyone have any ill intentions or anything, But, it can get a bit tiresome and put a strain on any new friendships you're trying to form if that's the only (well, mostly) thing people see you as.
I've found that's it's very easy for someone you meet to make snap decisions about whoever they meet, trying to fit them into preconceived boxes.
And those same boxes are often quite difficult to break out of.
Still though, after a while, if you stick to it trying to make it work, (if it's worth it) then people see you as you.
It's still something I'm trying to get used to.
So I figured I try something new, a different way in which to express myself.
And what better way then do so in a completely new language.
@@Kalernor
That's probably true. 😀
It'll be fun to watch.
Who knows, they might just go over the best way to approach those same aspects; listening, reading and writing here too along with much else.
MIA all the way! I would say that you should just follow the same approach as everyone else doing MIA and maybe when you get to the output stage you can begin to write. But I would worry about that later. MIA is a great method for someone mute because it doesn't rely on you talking from the beginning. In fact, it relies on the opposite.
I'm a Spanish native speaker learning Japanese, and I love listening to Matt's speaking not only because the valuable content but also because his English is way better than tons of Americans I have listened to. 😮 No wonder why he is good at speaking Japanese. All his ideas are that very well structured that he never corrects himself when speaking.
is spanish worth learning be honest
Damn, she really likes omelets.
I can’t deny this 😆
So the fastest and most effective way to learn a language is to hire a private native teacher of that language with a curriculum tailored to your level of motivation, discipline, competence, and specific goals. Sounds about right
Idk why but i love the voice of matt when he's speaking japanese
Most likely because of his pitch accent!
Same it’s beautiful tbh
Its just very clear that Matt is correct on nearly all points. Pearl's point on outputting Chinese tones is well taken though, but that's very different than output as a whole. I can't remember which video, but Matt makes a point that there is only one correct way to respond to something, and although I think Matt would now recant that point, there's a lot of truth to it. Often in classes, teachers will correct a student with something which is already in their vocabulary or grammar established by the curriculum, but that often isn't a native response in that situation. Classes are valuable, but only after a significant amount of the language learning process has already happened.
Best method: reading, sorted.
Tell me how to read a new Chinese character
@@FlowUrbanFlow You just know it.
@@raykings5244 You can't know something new
@@FlowUrbanFlow At that point you memorise it. And see it used in context. Writing it down repeatedly will help. Apps that show you the symbol and you pick the correct answer helps. Being consistent is important because even if slowly you will make progress and it will become ingrained in your head.
@@raykings5244 You said read. You can't read words you don't know in Chinese or Japanese. You're suggesting flash cards or other for the actual learning now, which is my point.
マットさんめちゃくちゃ頭いいな。論点を明確に整理して話してるから、すごく理解しやすいし、聞いてて気持ちいい。
What was the name of the Mandarin school that she attended?
That was a BRILLIANT discussion, and you both had such valid points!
(And look at Anming, all passionate and combative! 👍)