Edgar, I understand your luthier-technical (maybe a bit commercial) perspective but personally I don't buy an instrument because of its label, its selling value or its future value. Maybe I buy it because of its sound, the feelings I have playing it, its history (if it has an interesting one)...so, there's a world behind an instrument and you definitely can't reduce to a metter of value.
I have to adress something in this video... I suppose that the aim of this channel is to inform and teach beginners. When you take that role, you also take the responsibility of not giving out wrong information, and I feel like there was a huge wrong statement in this video. While I like Edgar and agree with most of what he says in his videos, his way of talking about German cellos suggests that they are no good in general. That is far from the truth. The reason why German instruments are generally less valuable and frowned upon by the high-end dealers is the mass production of low end instruments made in Markneukirchen, much like the cheap Chinese instruments flooding the market these days. That does not mean that all German instruments are poorly made, and even Markneukirchen produced very nice instruments. Even some of the best bowmakers had shop in Markneukirchen at the time, and their shops also had a line of low-end beginner bows. I have played the cello for just about eleven years now and also build/restore violins and cellos, and some of my favourite instruments happen to be German. The really nice thing about them is that, even though they play very well, they tend to have a lower price tag than those from more prestigious locations like Italy. Look out for great cellos and bows with no label, stamp or other identifications as a beginner. These tend to cost way less than similar items with a nice name on them.
Thank you for your impassioned response, yet you missed the entire point of the talk. We are talking about antique cellos. @3:38 Edgar clearly states the mistake of buying an antique cello just because it is old. Off-camera we talked about how easy old German cellos are found and the fault many buyers fall into, buying an old cello with no lineage. I was almost a victim of this once, when a 1865 cello rom England was available for only $10K. Another teacher beat me to the punch but he later regretted it, for the cello needed $15k in repairs. Hence, there is a huge risk from any instrument that has no traceable lineage. My experience appraising cellos with luthiers is that they can make educated guesses for the era and country at best. That English cello had triple purfling, a fad that was popular in England during the mid 19th century. Another friend of mine bought a Dutch cello with whale bone purfling - presumably a Pieter Rombouts but as you already know, luthiers do not certify anymore - and could have paid will into $180-$300K for it but since there was no absolute traceable lineage, she plucked it for $65K. And that cello played wonderfully and has really shown it's playability since. Our entire conversation is about new vs old, antique vs modern. Truth be told, Edgar was most influenced by Karl Becker from Chicago. Yup, an American is his all-time favorite modern luthier. As for his love of German craftsmanship, he emphasizes this in our latest talk about China. He's Austrian and is well in love with all things German. So much so, his Scala Perfetta line are German-constructed cellos.
I'm sorry if it seems like I missed the point. I realize that the talk was about new VS old, and I think you came up with some really good points in it. I simply wanted to address the negativity against German instruments you would experience if you watched this video without context or any of the other talks. I agree fully, you should never buy a cello just because it's old. At the same time, you shouldn't buy any cello just because it's made by "someone", but that goes for many things. You should buy the instrument that makes you happy when you're playing it and then afterwards find out who made it and when. And yes, old instruments can be very expensive in repairs. It's always necessary to check the condition of the instruments before you buy it, or take it to a luthier if you don't have the knowwledge for it yourself. There can be cracks, bad repairs that needs redoing, necks that have sunken over time, warps etc., and some of these are not easy repairs. I was buying one myself once, a Mittenwald cello with a wonderful tone, but it needed half of its price in repairs. I could then use that knowledge to get the instrument cheaper to make room in my budget for repairs, as most sellers want to sell their instrument in a good condition.
May I highlight this comment in an upcoming video that advises what you stated? Also, are you a luthier with a website? I would like to share a link in the description. Real talk, Edgar has to be pro-Italian, even though he loves all things German-made. You should leave him a comment!
Of course he has to like Italian things. And honestly, who doesn't? :-) You can do that, sure thing! I wish I had a website, as I have a lot in stock at the moment I would like to sell, but unfortunately I'm just an amateur, so I haven't made a proper one yet. The best thing I can give you is one I started to make ages ago, tutitui123.wixsite.com/violin, but man that thing needs a serious update/rebuild and a proper URL ;-)
why would u choose a cello for its brand or its name in my opinion play on much cellos as u can and choose the one u feel comfortable playing on even if it has no name or brand on it
I agree 100% with you. When we consider a cello, it is entirely subjective. Though, if you are looking to upgrade or trade the cello for a better one, certain makes have higher re-sale values. Ming Jiang-Zhu cellos are a perfect example of this: a fine Chinese maker that is not well known, hence undervalued in other markets. As a rule, French and Italian cellos from any maker will be more valued on the wholesale market than all others. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, like Carl Becker cellos. I think the best way to gauge where the best luthiers are is to visit the violin museum in Cremona and tally all the winners of their competition since the 1970s. The trend I noticed is South Korean and Japanese are in the ascension!
Are we talking about professionals who go on stage or about hobby players who buy to play at home or in amateuer orchestras? Because most hobby players would not spend 40.000 € and most hobby players can get a "great" cello for their purposes for maybe 5000 to 10.000 €. I have one around 2500€, used, (3/4 size) so "old", but not that old, maybe 20 to 40 years, I believe, that sounds so good that I will probably never buy another cello. No need to "upgrade". I also believe EVERYBODY who is not a beginner should go and PLAY instruments and would then be able to hear if one is a lemon or not.Especially of course the professional. But most hobby players who have played for some years will be able to tell you what they like in a cello and what they don't like, what they are looking for. That can be very personal. There may be lots of old German cellos, violins and violas, but some people still intentionally buy and love them, mainly hobby players, of course. To those people, these instruments sound good or even great. I would like to advocate against snobbism in instrument buying/ owning, ESPECIALLY if you don't earn your money with that instrument. You don't need a famous name, a label, an expensive instrument - you need to find YOUR instrument and then stop searching. I have two that I came across purely by accident, that I wouldn't have picked myself, both times mainly due to the colors, but that I now totally love. One test playing and I knew this was the instrument for me. One, the violin, is actually about 125 years old now which gives me a good feeling to own something that has possibly been played by many other people before (I do not know anything about it, if it spend 80 years in a closet or was passed on from one player to the next). I did not even know that when I picked the violin purely by sound but it adds some sentimental value to the instrument. When you play, you mostly do not see your instrument. You only hear it. It is of no importance how it looks, if it is old, if it has a big name to it, if it was expensive - it is only important if it is easy to play and you like the sound.
Hi there. Fast forward 1 year. I went to my local luthier and have a $5K German unlabeled. It’s the easiest and best sounding cello I’ve ever played, and I’m no spring chicken. I consider myself intermediate. If you haven’t already bought a cello by this time, may I suggest going to a luthier closest to you, have him or her pick a few out for you in your price range? Do a blind test and pick the one you like the best. I went to my local luthier and picked my German unlabeled over a Pietro Lombardi (labeled). I also chose it over an $8K cello. I don’t remember whether it was labeled or not.
Vintage instruments. I think are just an attempt to get people to spend more money. Unless that century old violin or cello is miraculously in the same condition it was brand new. Unless you could put the same strings and bridge from that same time period...it's pointless. Once you put strings or a new bridge made TODAY it's no longer fully vintage. So if we're using strings and a bridge made TODAY..might as well stick with a instrument made recently. The only vintage item we SHOULD get are ones we don't alter in any way. E.g. painting, Sculpture... Even if you use the same woods used in a Strad...the wood is not the same as it was sa century ago. Was "newer" then" I'm guessing the oldest "Strad spruce" has been used. So that changes the sound... I say pick the style we prefer...Montagnana? (my favorite) or the popular Strad (which I think are overrated. The type of wood is only a part of the equation in getting the instrument that sounds the best to YOU. E.g. There are 2 hi-end grand piano makers who use the same Strad spruce EXACTLY as the original Strad violins..they still ended up sounding "different" not one was better...and The piano's I liked didn't use "Stradivari --spruce"...
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Edgar, I understand your luthier-technical (maybe a bit commercial) perspective but personally I don't buy an instrument because of its label, its selling value or its future value. Maybe I buy it because of its sound, the feelings I have playing it, its history (if it has an interesting one)...so, there's a world behind an instrument and you definitely can't reduce to a metter of value.
well said
I have to adress something in this video... I suppose that the aim of this channel is to inform and teach beginners. When you take that role, you also take the responsibility of not giving out wrong information, and I feel like there was a huge wrong statement in this video. While I like Edgar and agree with most of what he says in his videos, his way of talking about German cellos suggests that they are no good in general. That is far from the truth.
The reason why German instruments are generally less valuable and frowned upon by the high-end dealers is the mass production of low end instruments made in Markneukirchen, much like the cheap Chinese instruments flooding the market these days. That does not mean that all German instruments are poorly made, and even Markneukirchen produced very nice instruments. Even some of the best bowmakers had shop in Markneukirchen at the time, and their shops also had a line of low-end beginner bows.
I have played the cello for just about eleven years now and also build/restore violins and cellos, and some of my favourite instruments happen to be German. The really nice thing about them is that, even though they play very well, they tend to have a lower price tag than those from more prestigious locations like Italy. Look out for great cellos and bows with no label, stamp or other identifications as a beginner. These tend to cost way less than similar items with a nice name on them.
Thank you for your impassioned response, yet you missed the entire point of the talk. We are talking about antique cellos. @3:38 Edgar clearly states the mistake of buying an antique cello just because it is old. Off-camera we talked about how easy old German cellos are found and the fault many buyers fall into, buying an old cello with no lineage.
I was almost a victim of this once, when a 1865 cello rom England was available for only $10K. Another teacher beat me to the punch but he later regretted it, for the cello needed $15k in repairs. Hence, there is a huge risk from any instrument that has no traceable lineage. My experience appraising cellos with luthiers is that they can make educated guesses for the era and country at best. That English cello had triple purfling, a fad that was popular in England during the mid 19th century. Another friend of mine bought a Dutch cello with whale bone purfling - presumably a Pieter Rombouts but as you already know, luthiers do not certify anymore - and could have paid will into $180-$300K for it but since there was no absolute traceable lineage, she plucked it for $65K. And that cello played wonderfully and has really shown it's playability since.
Our entire conversation is about new vs old, antique vs modern. Truth be told, Edgar was most influenced by Karl Becker from Chicago. Yup, an American is his all-time favorite modern luthier. As for his love of German craftsmanship, he emphasizes this in our latest talk about China. He's Austrian and is well in love with all things German. So much so, his Scala Perfetta line are German-constructed cellos.
I'm sorry if it seems like I missed the point. I realize that the talk was about new VS old, and I think you came up with some really good points in it. I simply wanted to address the negativity against German instruments you would experience if you watched this video without context or any of the other talks. I agree fully, you should never buy a cello just because it's old. At the same time, you shouldn't buy any cello just because it's made by "someone", but that goes for many things. You should buy the instrument that makes you happy when you're playing it and then afterwards find out who made it and when.
And yes, old instruments can be very expensive in repairs. It's always necessary to check the condition of the instruments before you buy it, or take it to a luthier if you don't have the knowwledge for it yourself. There can be cracks, bad repairs that needs redoing, necks that have sunken over time, warps etc., and some of these are not easy repairs. I was buying one myself once, a Mittenwald cello with a wonderful tone, but it needed half of its price in repairs. I could then use that knowledge to get the instrument cheaper to make room in my budget for repairs, as most sellers want to sell their instrument in a good condition.
May I highlight this comment in an upcoming video that advises what you stated? Also, are you a luthier with a website? I would like to share a link in the description.
Real talk, Edgar has to be pro-Italian, even though he loves all things German-made. You should leave him a comment!
Of course he has to like Italian things. And honestly, who doesn't? :-)
You can do that, sure thing! I wish I had a website, as I have a lot in stock at the moment I would like to sell, but unfortunately I'm just an amateur, so I haven't made a proper one yet. The best thing I can give you is one I started to make ages ago, tutitui123.wixsite.com/violin, but man that thing needs a serious update/rebuild and a proper URL ;-)
why would u choose a cello for its brand or its name in my opinion play on much cellos as u can and choose the one u feel comfortable playing on even if it has no name or brand on it
I agree 100% with you. When we consider a cello, it is entirely subjective. Though, if you are looking to upgrade or trade the cello for a better one, certain makes have higher re-sale values. Ming Jiang-Zhu cellos are a perfect example of this: a fine Chinese maker that is not well known, hence undervalued in other markets. As a rule, French and Italian cellos from any maker will be more valued on the wholesale market than all others. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, like Carl Becker cellos. I think the best way to gauge where the best luthiers are is to visit the violin museum in Cremona and tally all the winners of their competition since the 1970s. The trend I noticed is South Korean and Japanese are in the ascension!
Are we talking about professionals who go on stage or about hobby players who buy to play at home or in amateuer orchestras?
Because most hobby players would not spend 40.000 € and most hobby players can get a "great" cello for their purposes for maybe 5000 to 10.000 €. I have one around 2500€, used, (3/4 size) so "old", but not that old, maybe 20 to 40 years, I believe, that sounds so good that I will probably never buy another cello. No need to "upgrade".
I also believe EVERYBODY who is not a beginner should go and PLAY instruments and would then be able to hear if one is a lemon or not.Especially of course the professional. But most hobby players who have played for some years will be able to tell you what they like in a cello and what they don't like, what they are looking for. That can be very personal.
There may be lots of old German cellos, violins and violas, but some people still intentionally buy and love them, mainly hobby players, of course. To those people, these instruments sound good or even great.
I would like to advocate against snobbism in instrument buying/ owning, ESPECIALLY if you don't earn your money with that instrument. You don't need a famous name, a label, an expensive instrument - you need to find YOUR instrument and then stop searching.
I have two that I came across purely by accident, that I wouldn't have picked myself, both times mainly due to the colors, but that I now totally love. One test playing and I knew this was the instrument for me.
One, the violin, is actually about 125 years old now which gives me a good feeling to own something that has possibly been played by many other people before (I do not know anything about it, if it spend 80 years in a closet or was passed on from one player to the next). I did not even know that when I picked the violin purely by sound but it adds some sentimental value to the instrument.
When you play, you mostly do not see your instrument. You only hear it. It is of no importance how it looks, if it is old, if it has a big name to it, if it was expensive - it is only important if it is easy to play and you like the sound.
My budget is 4-5k scared to waste money, I've always been a poor cellist, any suggestions with my price range
Hi there. Fast forward 1 year. I went to my local luthier and have a $5K German unlabeled. It’s the easiest and best sounding cello I’ve ever played, and I’m no spring chicken. I consider myself intermediate. If you haven’t already bought a cello by this time, may I suggest going to a luthier closest to you, have him or her pick a few out for you in your price range? Do a blind test and pick the one you like the best. I went to my local luthier and picked my German unlabeled over a Pietro Lombardi (labeled). I also chose it over an $8K cello. I don’t remember whether it was labeled or not.
Vintage instruments. I think are just an attempt to get people to spend more money. Unless that century old violin or cello is miraculously in the same condition it was brand new. Unless you could put the same strings and bridge from that same time period...it's pointless. Once you put strings or a new bridge made TODAY it's no longer fully vintage. So if we're using strings and a bridge made TODAY..might as well stick with a instrument made recently.
The only vintage item we SHOULD get are ones we don't alter in any way. E.g. painting, Sculpture...
Even if you use the same woods used in a Strad...the wood is not the same as it was sa century ago. Was "newer" then" I'm guessing the oldest "Strad spruce" has been used. So that changes the sound...
I say pick the style we prefer...Montagnana? (my favorite) or the popular Strad (which I think are overrated. The type of wood is only a part of the equation in getting the instrument that sounds the best to YOU. E.g. There are 2 hi-end grand piano makers who use the same Strad spruce EXACTLY as the original Strad violins..they still ended up sounding "different" not one was better...and The piano's I liked didn't use "Stradivari --spruce"...
You should engage with Edgar Russ on his RUclips channel. Great points all around!!