My favorite part of this, Jonathan, which was so special, was when John said " I love you " to you. He said it with such heart and respect, it came out so naturally and with emphasis of meaning, it was truly genuine. I find your friendship with John to be an excellent example of what a true friendship is. As always, thank you both. To anyone reading this, I encourage you to do John's course: Awakening from the meaning crisis (it is free, and on youtube- such a gift and a blessing) , as well as listen to the conversations that Jonathan has had with John as well as them with Jordan Peterson, it will only enrich your life. Jonathan, I am still busy catching up with your work as I did the course first, but thank you for your wisdom, I am grateful that you exist and I am grateful that I am alive at the same time as you and have this beautiful opportunity to learn from you. Bless your heart. You are an amazing person. Sending good vibes from South Africa
I literally could watch one of these dialogues between Jonathan and Jon every single day. These two are like the two main aspects of my personality that battle with each other, but these two guys are wonderful, rightly oriented instantiations that not only know how to “play well” with each other, but they clearly enjoy it and are excited by it, and it’s so infectious. LOVE their discussions. Would love if they could just start a whole separate YT channel together.
I listened to several hundreds of long-form conversations now. These two bring a great balance of knowledge, wisdom, love and humor. Isn't this just beautiful. I'm happy you found each other. You guys truly inspire me.Thank you Jonathan and John !
I had to check out halfway through this because not only was it dense and obtuse (which is common in philosophical discussions, yet doesn't need to be) but I could tell that not much of substance was being said and it almost seemed like they came to this with no preparation, or their mind jumbled, what with the crowd and all. Who knows. But a dialectic this wasn't
John V asks what is the difference between everyday movements and ritual? Some patterns create beautiful pictures and some patterns just make a mess. I love listening to these guys talk. Thank you for posting 👍
Absolutely love, love, love this! 💗 I missed this session in Thunder Bay, but I can still feel the magnetic intensity as I watch these two wonderful thinkers intertwine in dialogos, and I'm still swept into their increasing excitement and flow as their undulating ideas gradually merge. SO good!! Can't wait for the conversation to continue! It's an exciting time to be alive!
John and Jonathan, I make it a point to come back to your ongoing and evolving work to reaffirm and ultimately intensify the choice of becoming a participatory member of the Roman Catholic Church. God bless both of you and the elegance you utilize in expressing and exploring these topics that change people's lives. Veni, spiritus sancti.
Great dialogue - the truth is in the tension. Really enjoyed the listening, the humility, the openness to new insights, and the convergence points of their views expressed with honesty and love. Thanks guys, keep up the good work!
Jonathan you should take Dr Peterson for a journey to Mount Athos. It would be trasformative for him and an opportunity for a few great videos and talks for your channel. There are still fathers in the spiritual height of St Paisios, it would be helpful for Jordan's soul.
It's almost impossible to me to understand Jonathan, probably 'cause I'm a scientist, but I totally give him the benefit of the doubt because John really shines when he's with him, and John's language is much easier to follow for me.
I needed a few years of listening to Jonathan before I started understanding a good portion of what he is saying - it takes time for someone coming from a Western, materialist background to get accustomed to his way of speaking. But it was certainly worth it for me. If you are interested in getting to know his work, I would recommend, besides listening to his videos obviously, to also check out the conversations he had with his brother Matthieu Pageau, and possibly read Matthieu's book "The Language of Creation". Matthieu is a mathematician and has a very methodological approach to symbolism, which you might appreciate coming from a scientific background, and which could help you get a head start in understanding the symbolic worldview. Both of them really helped me bridge the scientific and religious, and transformed my way of seeing the world, for which I am forever grateful.
@@candaniel Jonathan’s speech “clicked” the second I heard it but it took me a few years to actually start getting what he was saying. It’s like he showed me a shiny object to her my attention then I slowly realized that the weird symbols carved in it is a language far beyond words
A question: I get what Jonathan is saying around 51:50, that the Eucharist is the "meal of meals". But why is the central ritual of Christianity a meal in the first place, out of all the things that could be ritualized? It coudl've been a cosmic battle, a sexual union, sowing and reaping, or a bunch of other things. I'm sort of expecting someone to explain why all the things I mentioned are contained in the Eucharist. Might be, but I can't say I get the necessity of that cosmic image above others!
@@christinadickson2796 Sure, but there are plenty of ways to commemorate a sacrifice, and a ritualised communal dinner doesn't seem like the most obvious one to me.
@@user-zl8nh1bp6e look at the Israelites. God is Trinity, when our Israelites forefathers sacrificed(besides whole-burn offerings) the people would fellowship by eating part of the sacrifice. God is love, this is, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit exist in perfect unity, Christ himself says “I would have them be one even as we are one”(I paraphrase). Battle and death and results of the fall, sexuality is merely a means of marital union and reproduction(it is captured by the Eucharist as well, in a real way, without pleasure). The goal of humanity is to eat with God, to be united in fellowship with the Trinity, through Jesus Christ(who offers the meal), in the Holy Spirit(who perfected, consecrates, and establishes the meal), to the Father(who receives the sacrifice). Yet even moreso, God(Jesus Christ) becomes that very sacrifice, that we might him, and in fellowship with God, by grace we become god(you become what you eat in a real way), not by nature nor by person(for we, humans of human nature, very created, eat), but we through Jesus Christ come to participate in the grace of the divine uncreated energies, participating in the life of the Trinity, recidivist unity with God and others, and fulfilling our purpose.
@@user-zl8nh1bp6e hi J - food keeps us alive. And there is another sort of food that keeps us alive. But in a more profound way. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." - the first Torah verse Jesus quoted in his wilderness trial. From Deuteronomy 8:3 This (a meal) is chosen probably because it's something we all rely on DIRECTLY all the time. Cosmic battles, sexual unions... these things are not so necessary "day by day" for life. Every time followers of Jesus eat and drink we are to remember that the Lord not only provides us with the bread of physical sustenance but also the bread which comes from above. This is why our beautiful Lord's Prayer instructs us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is a prayer for every kind of daily bread we need. For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs... with the fat of kidneys of *wheat;* and thou didst drink the pure *blood of the grape.* Deut32 "And he took bread..." "And he took the cup..." (what Jesus calls 'the fruit of the vine,' after he had 'given thanks' ie εὐχαριστήσας / Eucharistesas) Matt26:26 > < Mark14:22 I hope this helps. Let me know
John Vervaike offers no solution. He basically talks about the same stuff Jomathan does but uses more technical scientish language. The difference is though at the end of it Jonathan says go to Church, participate, change into a Christlike person. What does John offer? Nothing, gnosticism. From what position does he judge all phenomenon? His epistemology is bs.
I love Dr. Vervaeke's work, but I see what you're saying. I think he is a gateway to true ritual. He led me to Christ's Church, even if it wasn't his intention.
“No source of instruction can be overlooked in the preparation for the great battle of life, and there is a certain advantage to be derived from the right use of the heathen writers. The illustrious Moses is described as training his intellect in the science of the Egyptians, and so arriving at the contemplation of Him Who is. So in later days Daniel at Babylon was wise in the Chaldean philosophy, and ultimately apprehended the Divine instruction... [But] we must not take everything indiscriminately, but only what is profitable. It would be shameful for us in the case of food to reject the injurious, and at the same time, in the case of lessons, to take no account of what keeps the soul alive, but, like mountain streams, to sweep in everything that happens to be in our way.” Saint Basil the Great
Watch his series awakening from the meaning crisis, you're ignorant if you think that his epistemology is bs. He's a meditation master and a taichichuan master. His approach is unique and is based on 4E cognitive science the discipline that is bridging between all the sciences that talk about the mind (anthropology, psychology, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc) by arguing for a model called "synoptic integration" that provides the language necessary for effective communication between this disciplines, to afford mutual insight and mutual growth. He's not only providing the language, he's affording the possibility for the SBNRs (Spiritual but not religious) people, maybe a bit trapped in Gnosticism, to experience the numinous and have the tools to afford transformation and insight, and more important to ground the experience. Not everybody have the possibility of returning to Christianity my friend. I think what Vervaeke and many others are providing is the first steps for the birth of a new religion (what he calls the religion of no religion), a religion without a human figure; the posmodern critique makes it impossible for the SBNRs and materialistic scientists to return to christianity, and I intuitive that you cannot see this, nostalgia is impossible at this point. So I think you're blinded by your lack of understanding and prefer to judge John very unfairly. I seriously think that we are seeing the birth of a new religion.
One day John will be reunited with us in Faith again my dear brothers and sisters. Let's pray for him, I admire his curiosity and restless pursuit of Truth. All he needs to do is take a Kierkegaardian leap of Faith
Jon's question around 24 mins in about one part of the two part system working to destroy the other is a good encapsulation of major problem we face today. Jon is a subservient to the university, so he's giving the bs both sides are insane... When it's his sponsors who are ratcheting up the calamity. Talk vaguely and pretend it's on one side attacking and destroying the system even though he admits both sides need to function to maintain.... So much cope from the academic.
and we get this for free... God be with you always Pageau
My favorite part of this, Jonathan, which was so special, was when John said " I love you " to you. He said it with such heart and respect, it came out so naturally and with emphasis of meaning, it was truly genuine. I find your friendship with John to be an excellent example of what a true friendship is. As always, thank you both. To anyone reading this, I encourage you to do John's course: Awakening from the meaning crisis (it is free, and on youtube- such a gift and a blessing) , as well as listen to the conversations that Jonathan has had with John as well as them with Jordan Peterson, it will only enrich your life. Jonathan, I am still busy catching up with your work as I did the course first, but thank you for your wisdom, I am grateful that you exist and I am grateful that I am alive at the same time as you and have this beautiful opportunity to learn from you. Bless your heart. You are an amazing person. Sending good vibes from South Africa
I literally could watch one of these dialogues between Jonathan and Jon every single day. These two are like the two main aspects of my personality that battle with each other, but these two guys are wonderful, rightly oriented instantiations that not only know how to “play well” with each other, but they clearly enjoy it and are excited by it, and it’s so infectious. LOVE their discussions. Would love if they could just start a whole separate YT channel together.
Beautifully put!
Study zen
No thing
No duality
I listened to several hundreds of long-form conversations now. These two bring a great balance of knowledge, wisdom, love and humor. Isn't this just beautiful. I'm happy you found each other. You guys truly inspire me.Thank you Jonathan and John !
about to rewatch this 48 times so I can begin to understand everything that is covered here
Only 48 😂
I don’t understand any of it!!
Watch the series on John channel: Awekening from the meaning crisis
I had to check out halfway through this because not only was it dense and obtuse (which is common in philosophical discussions, yet doesn't need to be) but I could tell that not much of substance was being said and it almost seemed like they came to this with no preparation, or their mind jumbled, what with the crowd and all. Who knows. But a dialectic this wasn't
John V asks what is the difference between everyday movements and ritual? Some patterns create beautiful pictures and some patterns just make a mess. I love listening to these guys talk. Thank you for posting 👍
The best bromance
Me and the boys struggling to contain how happy we are to be hanging out.
Eh, I dunno, dr. huberman and lex hold that title
Absolutely love, love, love this! 💗 I missed this session in Thunder Bay, but I can still feel the magnetic intensity as I watch these two wonderful thinkers intertwine in dialogos, and I'm still swept into their increasing excitement and flow as their undulating ideas gradually merge. SO good!! Can't wait for the conversation to continue! It's an exciting time to be alive!
Absolutely gorgeous conversation amongst beautiful and close friends
This really echoes my understanding of things and the conclusions I've come up with so far. Very cool to get more language to express it with.
John and Jonathan, I make it a point to come back to your ongoing and evolving work to reaffirm and ultimately intensify the choice of becoming a participatory member of the Roman Catholic Church. God bless both of you and the elegance you utilize in expressing and exploring these topics that change people's lives. Veni, spiritus sancti.
Great dialogue - the truth is in the tension. Really enjoyed the listening, the humility, the openness to new insights, and the convergence points of their views expressed with honesty and love. Thanks guys, keep up the good work!
Thanks
Wholesome video.
I like how John started drawing crosses with his hands near the end(54.24) when talking about the vertical and the horizontal transfer
Blessing the congregation to close...!
Can I say your voice is so tender and calm. It makes me feel less anxious when i hear you talking or speaking about philosophy
The perennial question: can a wise ritual manifest absent the attribution of an essence to the sacred?
I’m so happy for these guys! All there life’s work on full display. I imagine that must feel like lightning surging through every nerve
i'm no body language expert but it looks like what Jonathan is presenting is exciting John beyond his ability to contain.
Jonathan you should take Dr Peterson for a journey to Mount Athos. It would be trasformative for him and an opportunity for a few great videos and talks for your channel. There are still fathers in the spiritual height of St Paisios, it would be helpful for Jordan's soul.
Watching John reverse-engineer his way back to Jesus is a beautiful thing to see
pageau stock up on blankets, fire wood ,lighters and canned food
try to buy a house in remote countryside if possible(where land is cheap) .
Rationalisation.
Loving this! Best talk in a long time!
pls no democracy, tnx
48:57... Symbolism happens.
Love the moment when John is piecing together the nexus of meaning and intelligibility and it turns out it is the Cross.
It's almost impossible to me to understand Jonathan, probably 'cause I'm a scientist, but I totally give him the benefit of the doubt because John really shines when he's with him, and John's language is much easier to follow for me.
I needed a few years of listening to Jonathan before I started understanding a good portion of what he is saying - it takes time for someone coming from a Western, materialist background to get accustomed to his way of speaking. But it was certainly worth it for me.
If you are interested in getting to know his work, I would recommend, besides listening to his videos obviously, to also check out the conversations he had with his brother Matthieu Pageau, and possibly read Matthieu's book "The Language of Creation". Matthieu is a mathematician and has a very methodological approach to symbolism, which you might appreciate coming from a scientific background, and which could help you get a head start in understanding the symbolic worldview.
Both of them really helped me bridge the scientific and religious, and transformed my way of seeing the world, for which I am forever grateful.
@@candaniel thanks for the reply, I appreciate it
@@candaniel Jonathan’s speech “clicked” the second I heard it but it took me a few years to actually start getting what he was saying. It’s like he showed me a shiny object to her my attention then I slowly realized that the weird symbols carved in it is a language far beyond words
A question: I get what Jonathan is saying around 51:50, that the Eucharist is the "meal of meals". But why is the central ritual of Christianity a meal in the first place, out of all the things that could be ritualized? It coudl've been a cosmic battle, a sexual union, sowing and reaping, or a bunch of other things. I'm sort of expecting someone to explain why all the things I mentioned are contained in the Eucharist. Might be, but I can't say I get the necessity of that cosmic image above others!
The Eucharist is comemorating the sacrifice of Christ, which is the fulcrum of Christianity.
@@christinadickson2796 Sure, but there are plenty of ways to commemorate a sacrifice, and a ritualised communal dinner doesn't seem like the most obvious one to me.
@@user-zl8nh1bp6e look at the Israelites. God is Trinity, when our Israelites forefathers sacrificed(besides whole-burn offerings) the people would fellowship by eating part of the sacrifice. God is love, this is, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit exist in perfect unity, Christ himself says “I would have them be one even as we are one”(I paraphrase). Battle and death and results of the fall, sexuality is merely a means of marital union and reproduction(it is captured by the Eucharist as well, in a real way, without pleasure). The goal of humanity is to eat with God, to be united in fellowship with the Trinity, through Jesus Christ(who offers the meal), in the Holy Spirit(who perfected, consecrates, and establishes the meal), to the Father(who receives the sacrifice). Yet even moreso, God(Jesus Christ) becomes that very sacrifice, that we might him, and in fellowship with God, by grace we become god(you become what you eat in a real way), not by nature nor by person(for we, humans of human nature, very created, eat), but we through Jesus Christ come to participate in the grace of the divine uncreated energies, participating in the life of the Trinity, recidivist unity with God and others, and fulfilling our purpose.
@@user-zl8nh1bp6e hi J - food keeps us alive.
And there is another sort of food that keeps us alive. But in a more profound way.
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." - the first Torah verse Jesus quoted in his wilderness trial. From Deuteronomy 8:3
This (a meal) is chosen probably because it's something we all rely on DIRECTLY all the time.
Cosmic battles, sexual unions... these things are not so necessary "day by day" for life.
Every time followers of Jesus eat and drink we are to remember that the Lord not only provides us with the bread of physical sustenance but also the bread which comes from above.
This is why our beautiful Lord's Prayer instructs us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is a prayer for every kind of daily bread we need.
For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs... with the fat of kidneys of *wheat;* and thou didst drink the pure *blood of the grape.* Deut32
"And he took bread..."
"And he took the cup..." (what Jesus calls 'the fruit of the vine,' after he had 'given thanks' ie εὐχαριστήσας / Eucharistesas)
Matt26:26 > < Mark14:22
I hope this helps. Let me know
No you are not first.
yes i am
Haha
😱
John Vervaike offers no solution. He basically talks about the same stuff Jomathan does but uses more technical scientish language. The difference is though at the end of it Jonathan says go to Church, participate, change into a Christlike person. What does John offer? Nothing, gnosticism. From what position does he judge all phenomenon? His epistemology is bs.
I love Dr. Vervaeke's work, but I see what you're saying. I think he is a gateway to true ritual. He led me to Christ's Church, even if it wasn't his intention.
“No source of instruction can be overlooked in the preparation for the great battle of life, and there is a certain advantage to be derived from the right use of the heathen writers. The illustrious Moses is described as training his intellect in the science of the Egyptians, and so arriving at the contemplation of Him Who is. So in later days Daniel at Babylon was wise in the Chaldean philosophy, and ultimately apprehended the Divine instruction... [But] we must not take everything indiscriminately, but only what is profitable. It would be shameful for us in the case of food to reject the injurious, and at the same time, in the case of lessons, to take no account of what keeps the soul alive, but, like mountain streams, to sweep in everything that happens to be in our way.” Saint Basil the Great
Name checks out
Watch his series awakening from the meaning crisis, you're ignorant if you think that his epistemology is bs. He's a meditation master and a taichichuan master. His approach is unique and is based on 4E cognitive science the discipline that is bridging between all the sciences that talk about the mind (anthropology, psychology, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc) by arguing for a model called "synoptic integration" that provides the language necessary for effective communication between this disciplines, to afford mutual insight and mutual growth. He's not only providing the language, he's affording the possibility for the SBNRs (Spiritual but not religious) people, maybe a bit trapped in Gnosticism, to experience the numinous and have the tools to afford transformation and insight, and more important to ground the experience. Not everybody have the possibility of returning to Christianity my friend. I think what Vervaeke and many others are providing is the first steps for the birth of a new religion (what he calls the religion of no religion), a religion without a human figure; the posmodern critique makes it impossible for the SBNRs and materialistic scientists to return to christianity, and I intuitive that you cannot see this, nostalgia is impossible at this point. So I think you're blinded by your lack of understanding and prefer to judge John very unfairly. I seriously think that we are seeing the birth of a new religion.
@@conexionneuronal8820 read “Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future” by Fr. Seraphim Rose.
I like John so much. He seems exhausted lately. Wishing you all the best, John!
We create our own reality
And genetic information
At the end are they not talking about Saints? But never mention it?
Vervaeke letting the hair down a bit here, I like it, makes him more engaging
Maybe he's always like this with a crowd, we just don't see it because we see him speaking to his computer screen so much
Commenting for the algorithm, can’t wait to watch later!
One day John will be reunited with us in Faith again my dear brothers and sisters. Let's pray for him, I admire his curiosity and restless pursuit of Truth. All he needs to do is take a Kierkegaardian leap of Faith
This was awesome
Jon's question around 24 mins in about one part of the two part system working to destroy the other is a good encapsulation of major problem we face today.
Jon is a subservient to the university, so he's giving the bs both sides are insane... When it's his sponsors who are ratcheting up the calamity. Talk vaguely and pretend it's on one side attacking and destroying the system even though he admits both sides need to function to maintain.... So much cope from the academic.
Yes, yes, yes
I already know how the end of the movie goes.. John becomes Christian.
It seems inevitable.
Cope
57:30
Mediator
"don't try this at home" 🙄
Hey there. Can I ask why did that bother you?
@@danielrivera4651 Because you can do the Jesus prayer at home.
@@leondbleondb true! I understand.
But he was talking about the whole trying to stop your heart thing. Besides, it was a joke, so...