@@Thom-TRA I just can't believe an elected official would even say that ugh. Like you said these sort of super slow, only kinda useful projects, just give the anti-transit crowd amunition to oppose bettter projects. Lets hope they can actually develop transit on the Beltline. We need to move away from building anymore unsustainable highways and the traffic, pollution, health problems, inequity and unsustainable development pattern they bring
We’ve crawled into his @$$ on these comments and made a home in there. The whole reason the Beltline exists is because it was pitched in a citywide referendum as a transit corridor for the still being planned Streetcar to offset MARTA which could never be built as a loop line (in this country anyway) I’m sick of all these plans turning into vapor here.
@@sammymarrco2 And we thought the RTD B-line between Denver and Boulder was the worst vaporware transit project around haha, that's getting incorporated into the Front Range Regional Rail project so will become a state Amtrak line.
Thank you again Thom. Being back here in Atlanta after living half my life in Japan riding trains and buses everyday everywhere is painful sometimes. In 2000, we had 5 extensions to MARTA Metro slated along with this new streetcar/tram idea that was taking shape. We were 4 years removed from the olympics and still had a progressive approach to transit. 24 years later, and PHOENIX, DALLAS, and even MIAMI have more shovel ready transit projects happening. It’s maddening.
Also, until we take a more comprehensive regional approach to public transit (DC metro serves 2 states and The District, Chicago has CTA, Pace and METRA; Atlanta had MARTA that only serves 2 counties out of a 12 counties core metro area), things will continue to be 💩 around here.
Marta is caught in a death spiral wherein poor coverage and woefully unreliable schedule-keeping ensure that very few professionals view Marta as an acceptable commuting solution. That results in a ridership of low standards and debased acculturation-like the fellow who attempted to board shirtless, or the savages who blare their music out loud without headphones-on whom the expense of offering improved transit service would be wasted. That does allow Marta to balance its budget while replacing tired New Flyers with new Gillig BRT's, retiring 40 year old EMU's with $650 million worth of Alstom rolling stock, and improving its aged facilities. That's all cosmetic though, and won't sustainably appeal to the professional demographic. In my opinion the necessary systemic solution is to outlaw surface parking lots.
Marta is caught in a death spiral wherein poor coverage and woefully unreliable schedule-keeping ensure that very few professionals view Marta as an acceptable commuting solution. That results in a ridership of low standards and debased acculturation-like the fellow who attempted to board shirtless, or the savages who blare their music out loud without headphones-for whose benefit the additional expense of providing proper transit service is a perpetual non-starter. That does allow Marta to balance its budget while replacing tired New Flyers with new Gillig BRT's, retiring 40 year old EMU's with $650 million worth of Stadler rolling stock, and improving its aged facilities. That's all cosmetic though, and won't sustainably appeal to the professional demographic. As a person who has also spent time in Tokyo and Atlanta, the systemic solution Marta requires is for the City of Atlanta to outlaw surface parking lots of over five- or six spaces.
That interview with Andre Dickens was....extremely painful to watch. A streetcar shouldn't be just a tourist attraction, they should be actual services for residents! If American city governments want people to use streetcars instead of just taking a bus, then the key is actually making it useful and convenient, with transit-priority signals, good frequencies, solid feeder connections with other transit, closing streets for cars so streetcars aren't blocked, transit-oriented development, and expansion! And when I hear him say people mover...it makes me think of places like Detroit and Singapore's Punggol and Bukit Panjang. Though to be fair to Detroit, the DPM is a circulator because it was meant to have different rail lines as feeders in the original ambitious plan, but it and the suburbs couldn't decide on anything for the 600 million promised by Gerald Ford, and so only the circulator got built and the money was withdrawn by Reagan. So the QLine built in 2017 is a step closer to that vision. Miami's Metromover is successful, but that's because that system has different loops and Miami has booming development to back up ridership along with connecting to Metrorail, Metrobus bus loops, and also Brightline. But with Bukit Panjang in Singapore, a people mover (or should I say LRT...) is the worst solution for it! For starters, they call it an LRT when it's very much not. They chose to build a people mover (while cheaper to build, it costs more to operate than the MRT) with very low capacity in an extremely dense area (you'd need three of the LRT cars connected together just to match the capacity of a single MRT car; they're two connected together). The accessibility is very bad as even if stations have elevators, they're useless when you can't cross the very busy roads to the stations without going up steps. The ride isn't comfy because of all the twists and turns (which makes the system unreliable), basically a roller coaster. And I've seen Twitter accounts post about how cool the windows are on the LRT because they're special panels made to block people's apartments when they're not cool, it's quite silly and they often don't work like they're supposed to, sometimes leaving the whole car opaque during the whole journey!
We actually have a successful APM - The Plane Train at ATL Airport! But outside of Taipei’s Wenhu Brown line (which has 55 second headways and 4 car trains) a streetcar would work. I was envisioning tram trains looping around after running from the suburbs like the ones in Europe when this whole started 20 years ago-The Beltline idea was pitched transit first, the trail was an afterthought used to secure it while Funding could be found for the rails.
Living in Singapore, I can very much attest to this. The Bukit Panjang LRT was imposed into an already-built up town badly - even our former transport Minister admitted it was "an afterthought built under political pressure" (his exact words). A friend of mine living in Bukit Panjang vehemently despises the LRT, and it’s not hard to see why. The Punggol and Sengkang LRT are better though (slightly only). Sengkang and Punggol’s LRT (also automated people mover) systems were built with the towns, so they’re a smoother ride. However, it is woefully under capacity. One-car trains running in the peak hours are packed to the brim (and they were one-car only for a while!), and an expansion of the system to accommodate 3-4 car trains is long overdue (but probably not happening). I take the Sengkang LRT every morning to school, and the crowds are unbearable… On the bright side, new 2-car LRT trains with gangways are coming along, but at some point in time we’re gonna need longer trains. Hopefully in the future Singapore builds trams to serve individual towns instead of “LRTs”… Edit: grammar, and the LRT is so under-capacity that even in the afternoon during non-peak hours, my friend and I are packed like sardines in a tin when we're otw home on a 1-car automated people mover...
This is what I like about your content Thom. You are pro train but still critical. I feel, that I get the full picture here. Pros and Cons. And to be honest, this line is strange. Why did they built a one-way loop in the first place? I don't get it. It just feels like a tourist attraction for an outsider like me... Also, I liked the look into the past and future! Let us pray they get their s**t together....
I appreciate it! I’m trying to be critical while not saying it shouldn’t exist. Because I do appreciate it, it is useful, and my criticism comes from a place of wanting it to be better!
What do you bet he had some venture capital bros come on by and wave some pipe-dream idea in his face and he goes "Oh this is genius!" without realizing it's smoke and mirrors...
WTYP just did an episode about the tragedy of Jacksonville turning their people mover into "The Ultimate Urban Circulator" and I highly recommend taking the time to watch it.
how to fix it: 1. run more than 15 minute frequencies, im tired of cities acting like "we discovered if the train comes every 15 minutes, people will ride it!!!!1111!!!!" like BRO cities knew that 50 years ago. and 15 minutes is not enough for a streetcar. Atlanta should buy more LRV's and run, imo, 3 minutes peak and 6 minutes off peak, kinda like Houston Metrorail. 2. dedicated lanes and signal priority 3. more lines, instead of it just being a downtown circulator, make the streetcar into an URBAN circulator!
We would kill for 15min frequency all day on the RTD light rail here in Denver, it's 30min off peak here 15min during weekday peak. The commuter rail runs at 15min off peak and 10min peak, but only serves the northern part of the metro area.
The clip from the Mayor is infuriating. It reminds me of anytime Mariel Bowser talks about the DC Metro. You can just tell, she's never actually used it and has no concept of who uses it, how it's used, or what is needed. Atlanta's Mayor didn't say it, but you could just hear "NIMBYs and businesses are already complaining, and I'm going to do whatever they say" behind his words.
@@onetwothreeabc it's pretty common, apparently, for business owners in urban areas to drastically overestimate the amount of business generated by people who drive and park near their business. That's not just in the US, either. Even though example after example can be shown where removing parking and improving access via public transit, sidewalk, and bike lanes has a positive impact on business, they still fight it. What you sometimes find is that the business owner themselves don't want the parking removed, because they want to be able to drive in from the suburbs and park "free" (on the tax payer's dollar). Maybe part of it is that people who live in car-dependent suburbs can't conceive of people who don't HAVE to drive to do anything.
I don't know either! It is anticlimactic that the streetcar ground to a halt, and also silly that the mayor seriously considered autonomous pods and "nice, slow people movers".
The Beltline is extremely popular in Atlanta, especially the East Beltline. There has been a ton of development that has taken place on it and it's the most lively pedestrian area in the city with many walkable live-work- play type neighborhoods attached to it. It's the perfect place for a quality street car line. The streetcar line you rode on is being extended to reach a section of the East Beltline howerver, and 4 additional Marta train stations are planned to be opened at Beltline connecting points.
I hate to say it but MARTA has no intention of adding 4 new subway stops. They are trying to deflect from answering where the money went from the extra sales tax that was supposed to fund 14 projects including 2 light rail lines. They have spent almost half the money with the only thing even started is a limited bus rapid transit line. The light rail along with what was originally promised will not be done. Them adding the 4 new stops has about the same likelihood of them building a rail line to Stonecrest, which they promise to DeKalb county residents every time it comes time to renew the one cent sales tax dedicated to them. MARTA opened it's last subway station in 2000. I doubt if there is anyone left there who would even know how to add infill stations or new rail.
@@anderra88 Where do you get your budget spending data from? I'm curious because I would love to know for my own use. If what you say is true it's a damn shame but I'm not surprised. Building heavy lines is one of the most expensive endeavors anyone could ever embark upon. And almost all major heavy line systems around the World have built what they have with help from not just local or regional but national funding. MARTA receives very little federal funding beyond the initial funding they received and don't receive much locally either. They also don't receive hardly anything from the state being that we are in a very anti public transit anti Atlanta State. So they are basically tasked with maintaining and expanding a heavy rail system used by an entire region with only local funding. This is a stupid burden to put on the city.
I think i would extend the streetcar northwest via Georgia Tech, Home Park, and Berkeley Park to Channing Valley as well as southeast via Cabbagetown to Glenwood Park. I think this would increase ridership and help cover some gaps where MARTA doesn’t go. There are some dense areas that currently don’t have rail service there and i am surprised no one has even thought of this. I would also give the streetcar it’s own right of way where possible to allow for more light rail-like service.
The Georgia Aquarium is quite a cool place! It has more than more than 11 million US gallons of water, or around 42 million liters! It was the largest aquarium in the world from its opening in 2005 until 2012 when it was surpassed by the Marine Life Park (formerly SEA Aquarium) in Singapore and the Chimelong Ocean Kingdom in China in 2014. To prepare the Aquarium for opening in 2005, staff piped in 8 million gallons (or 30.3 million liters) of City of Atlanta tap water, which is enough to fill 160,000 bathtubs, to fill the exhibits! After treating it to remove chemicals and impurities, the staff had to turn this fresh water into salt water for marine habitats. To do this, they added 750 2,000-pound (907 kg) sacks of Instant Ocean sea salt, for a total of 1.5 million pounds, or over 680,000 kilograms! That's the equivalent of more than 920,000 containers of table salt! The facility recycles almost 99 percent of it over 11 million gallons of water! A treatment and reclamation system cleans and recycles the water, losing only a little to evaporation and the protein skimmers that help remove debris. Behind the scenes, the Aquarium uses three types of filtration, and it takes over 500 pumps, 148 sand filters and 82 protein skimmers to filter the whole Aquarium!
The streetcar at first shown looks like the trolley vehicles in San Diego but red instead of blue, and all the trolley lines have red trolleys but we still have a few different lines.
That left turn at the end from Peachtree onto Ellis was signal-controlled when I regularly drove through the intersection a couple of years ago. (It kind of has to be because the streetcar crosses so many lanes of traffic there.) I wonder if there was a technical glitch with the light that day.
I would say it looks good for a way to get around the city centre if it has a larger LRT or metro system to get in the cit, here in Newcastle in England we have a perfect metro system but I could definitely see a small tram route just to get around the main attractions
I found this quite an informative video! I liked how the bell sounds classical! The streetcar itself, on the other hand... can use improvements. Personally, I, like you, hope that Atlanta does decide to extend the Atlanta Streetcar onto the BeltLine. Indeed, I was not even aware that any other plan was even considered, since it makes perfect sense for the former railroad line to be a railroad line once again. Thanks for the video!
Meanwhile here in Denver, the RTD light rail doesn't use a bell, they have a heavy rail style e-bell and a wimpy recording of a freight train horn. The commuter rail on the other hand has a proper heavy rail e-bell and a massive set of K5LAs that look almost too big for their silverliner 5s and are loud enough to wake the dead.
@@mrvwbug4423, I didn't know that! I wonder where I can hear audio of this? For now, I'll tell you that in my home city, San Diego, the Trolley doesn't have a bell like an Atlanta Streetcar, nor does it pretend to be a freight train like the RTD light rail: the San Diego Trolley just uses a buzzer. Thanks for the information!
I'm guessing they want to keep this streetcar extra extra extra safe because it's actually more of a discovery or pilot project than anything else. The pundits can bark about it being slow, but the experts know it can speed way way up. The real deal sinker for future expansion would be some sort of accident that causes injuries, so thats TOP PRIORITY . . . they're operating on the assumption that a lot of accident prone folks could be passengers, or accident prone drivers could plow into the streetcar . . . that's the operations, planning for worse case possibilities regarding accidents, and mitigating as much risk as possible . . . this line is going to be expanded, and it's going to get quicker, and it's going to speed up in proportion to the streetcar becoming embedded into the community . . . that's my understanding, i could be wrong, but don't think so. Thanks for the nice video on the streetcar . . . and by the way, they don't want topless passengers, or passengers without shoes etc either. It's a zero tolerance policy on that too . . . no body wants this pilot project attracting people without shoes or those who go around without shirts (I don't think?) Other passengers don't like it anyway.
We have a metromover people mover system in my hometown of DOWNTOWN MIAMI. You should check that out if you haven’t already. Side note: I live like 4 hours from Atlanta in PORT WENTWORTH, GA.
As soon as you said "Welcome to Atlanta", the Jermaine Dupri song started playing in my head. So.... the modern American streetcar is a grift by Siemens to sell rail equipment to subpar transit systems that don't go enough places and are slow?
Another great video! This wasn’t up and running the last time I was in Atlanta. Look forward to trying this and seeing the new MARTA trains when when they’re in service.
And I thought the RTD R-line in Denver was painfully slow haha. "Nice slow moving people mover" he just doesn't get it, that belt line begs for a fast, heavy commuter train, throw some silverliner 5s at that belt line.
I look forward to being able to say back in my day we could walk faster than the tram. Seriously the streetcar needs to be dramatically sped up and that is 100% why it is underused.
Yes, the mayor keeps back tracking, I hope they get a different mayor for sure over Atlanta. What's the point of the beltline? They should have prioritized the rail first, then the trails. And it's just the majority in my by the minority that complain about it. It's business minority. Not really the residents that much complain about the idea of light rail. I think by far most of them like the idea of it. I think they think that it will be bad for business for them, reality would be would actually probably bring more business. But you are absolutely right. They should prioritize the light rail. It shouldn't be stopping at the stop lights.
I rode the Atlanta streetcar. I only rode it two stops from Centennial Olympic Park. Next time I visit Atlanta I'll check out the Martin Luther King district.
IMHO, if a streetcar runs in mixed traffic and doesn't have signal priority, it's just a really expensive bus. Upgrade it to a true light rail line or better or simply don't bother.
@@onetwothreeabcI mean it would be better taking that money and building a BRT or using it on expanded regular bus service or make it a down payment on a real rail system.
And trams usually gain flexibility with dedicated lanes. If a tram breaks down or crashes into something, if there are crossover switches, other trams can use the switches to bypass the broken down tram.
MARTA is pretty much a joke to most natives here. Streetcar crawls and goes nowhere, trains have basically 2 mainline routes with zero provisions for express service from the terminals to downtown and they are proposing 4 infill stations to further slow down service. The only time my contemporaries and I ride it are from the terminals to GA Tech/Falcons games and shows at the Fox. As you discovered, Breeze is no breeze, more like a puff.
As an atlanta resident who frequently takes marta (but rarely did until about a year ago), it’s honestly pretty great. I’m slowly phasing my car out of my life, and I feel that most people don’t ride marta due to misconceptions, prejudices, or because they choose to live far from a station. that’s obviously their choice, but I’m going to choose to spend as little of my life in traffic as possible. also combining biking with the train and taking my bike on marta feels like a cheat code. I’ll happily spend a few hundred dollars a year to ride transit and save the ~$10k I’d spend on car ownership
A streetcar running in mixed traffic is a waste of money. That's what a bus does. Even buses have traffic pre-emption now. US streetcars are mostly built not to solve a transportation problem but as a downtown marketing device, an expensive downtown marketing device. Cities in Europe have good examples of how to build a streetcar line. The Atlanta mayor demonstrates the problem with most US city politicians, they have no experience using transit and have no idea what the economic potential of good rapid transit is, despite having a heavy rail subway in his city. The fact that he cites a "people mover" as a legitimate transit option means that only transit he's ever used is the Atlanta airport people mover. I think mayors should be required to use the transit system to get to/from work at least one week a month. Could be a good way to connect with the constituents that can't pay for $500/plate dinners to talk to him and to see what is really happening on the streets of the city.
yeah it does move slow. I rode just for the heck of it and it takes 30 min for the whole loop. I would still take it to avoid hot and cold temperatures. Although it seems that the majority of people that rides it are homeless that want to sit and chill
@@Thom-TRA I think the Mayor has this Romantic notion of streetcars in Europe where tourists get to see all of the beautiful Architecture & street life as they ride them. Somebody needs to Wake him up & tell him Atlanta ain't nothing like Europe!
Great video! The Beltline sounds like a wonderful idea-if it gets built as rail. The fact that pods and “nice and slow” peoplemovers were suggested is actually sad. Gadgetbahns definitely aren’t the move here. Perhaps Atlanta could look to the St. Louis MetroLink as an example, since they (successfully) turned old freight rights of way into a modern transit system! Another example is (although much less extensive) the Tide in Norfolk, VA.
"We're talking about a city with some of the worst traffic in the world" as someone who's spent a lot of time down there growing up, I can confidently say that is no exaggeration. It sucks, the highways make very little sense, and God forbid you come a circle. My uncle who's lived down there for about 20-25 years has labeled Atlanta as "The city of eternal road construction" Don't get me wrong, Atlanta is a great city and I have incredibly fond memories of railfanning near the old Southern Railway HQ when the old bridge was still there (and other locations but sadly not inman or tilford yard, never got to go there). It's just driving there is a nightmare and this is coming from someone who lives in Baltimore, AKA the capitol of terrible road planning (like navigating a maze) and the worst drivers.
I'm going to Atlanta at the end of May and the nearest MARTA station to my hotel is PeachTree Center. If I take the street car one stop Westward it may save walking a few blocks and get me slightly closer to my hotel but my question to you is, is it worth doing?
Im not sure where they went wrong with this project. It should have at least gone to King Memorial Marta station. I dont see it running on the Beltline ever! Especially now that they want Marta stations on the Beltline.
I suppose that ride would’ve even been a lot slower if the passenger had decided not to put on his shirt. Presumably there was no subsequent drama that followed because passengers can sometimes turn ugly and confrontational if they are told to put on a shirt, pay their fare, or to not smoke or vape.
So there is existing railroad ROW (right-of-way) circling the city of Atlanta just sitting there? Atlanta, get the city of St. Louis on the line ASAP lol. The original section on the St. Louis Metrolink was built on existing ROW so it could be done in Atlanta 🤷🏿♂ As far the nice slow moving people mover, just have the Mayor watch the last clip of that streetcar attempting to leave the station. That was brutal lol, I'll assume the operator had the walk speed button activated by accident 😆
I really don't expect fast moving people mover in a city at grade level. I'm sure it has to do with traffic (vehicle and pedestrian). That being said, I'm sure it could go a little faster if allowed by the city insurance company.
Thom, I just googled the population of Metro Atlanta, it is 6,307,26. Forget about the streetcar. It's an embarrassment for such a big Metro Area to be without any train service.
Looking forward to the urban circulator video. Street cars in the modern us face such an uphill battle.. I rode Kansas City and it was pleasant. But so many street cars are worse than well implemented BRT. But brt is so often done poorly too.
If this is all that people have in the largest city in my state, then I’m rather disappointed in Georgia. The last time I took the streetcar was years ago. It was fine; I was younger and cared more about the novelty than any practical considerations because there’s been no passenger rail transport of any sort here in Columbus since probably 1971. I wouldn’t imagine many people who rely on Atlanta’s underdeveloped public transportation system would react very well to their mayor after seeing him interviewed like that. Unless streetcars are thought of as merely tourist attractions (which shouldn’t be the case), people tend to work and have schedules, and thus wouldn’t find much use from a “nice, slow-moving” vehicle.
The problem of traffic around Atlanta won’t be addressed until significant rail infrastructure is added back to the city. Encircling Atlanta won’t alleviate traffic coming from commuters around the perimeter so outward expansion is needed. Annoyingly my county (Gwinnett) is about to ask 17B for a freaking bus rapid transit line. Like what?? Just use trains and get it done in a timely manner bc the previous train ask apparently said 20+ years to develop
@@onetwothreeabc considering there are none currently, I would like to extend Marta from doraville up to Buford. Then perpendicular to that, have street car lines that go from snellville to Alpharetta (but a bunch of parallel paths as needed). Duluth/pleasant hill road could be An amazing place if they redeveloped it with the same great international restaurants there. I think it would more or less look like a rotated grid
@@ryanc4955 Gwinnett voted turned down the proposal to increase tax and extend MARTA. I think if they didn't ask for tax increase there would be a lot more support. After all, Gwinnett's economy is booming and the tax base is already increased. They should just use the surplus to build the rail line. After all, it's all cost issue. BRT costs A LOT less than rail system (see MARTA's own BRT line vs rail analysis). If BRT would cost Gwinette 17B, the rail system can only cost more - 50B maybe?
@@onetwothreeabc yeah I really want to research how they came up with such an astronomical value for BRT. I wish I worked for the county so I could get trains and cut the cost down. I remember seeing Paris do a massive overhaul with tons of new stations for a reasonable price so what’s the problem here
Thom, for the love of god, if MARTA expands their streetcar network, they're going to be blocking up traffic all over downtown Atlanta as slow as they are, MARTA needs a commuter rail network instead, LOL!!!😂😂😂
and when it does go somewhat fast its in the median of a highway. It crawls along while silicon valley teslas occupied by rich technocrats streak past. Good luck with frequencies, and land use around it is horrible since it's mostly parking lots and hourly bus connections. This is in contrast to SF where you can take Muni, BART, and Caltrain.
The Atlanta street car is a joke among trainset enthusiast. Everyone in atl also thinks its a joke, I really hope Andre Dickens doesn't mess with the plan for the street car extension. Everyone I talk to loves the idea of connecting some of the biggest retail districts in Atlanta to downtown and other marta stops.
They shouid just put some linked golf carts on the Beltline for passengers. Not enough room there for a tram. Edit- and make it free too. Or a long term pass. So they don't have to stop and wait for everybody to pay their little fairs.
You say it's barely walking pace, and yet Warrington to London Euston is 104 mph non-stop (I was on a late one which was actually 112 mph). So clearly "transit" encompasses a range of speeds.
@@Thom-TRA "Range of speeds". Your tram will indeed not be 112 mph.But will Birmingham to DC be 112 mph even if Birmingham to Wolverhampton is not? Obviously Library to Bull Street is likely 10 mph average.
Yeah I dont fully understand why these streetcars are so common, they cost alot and I think in the mean time it would be better to have BRT in the central area so that cross town buses could be faster and more useful. But our stigma of buses means they dont spur development like rail does.
I don’t think it has as much to do with the stigma as it does with the perceived permanence of railroad tracks. They’re a more visual indicator that a region is willing to invest and stay in a particular corridor. What these streetcars really need is to keep expanding and becoming more useful to more people. At this point I think the last thing we need to do is remind politicians that BRT exists, since they have a habit of taking everything that should be rail and making it bus instead.
@@Thom-TRA They need to at least add TPS and lanes. Would they run trains like you rode the on Beltline ROW or would it be like MAX/Seattle Light rail cars? Beucase I thought that those streetcars and LR were incompatible.
@@Thom-TRA interesting, they look different enough to seem like different versions. But i know which one is built for each transit system so there are small changes. Thanks, my understand has changed a bit!
I’ve ridden on the Atlanta Streetcar before and it’s nice but it’s SLOW. That’s not something you use if you’re rushing to get somewhere, that’s plainly for sightseeing & truthfully, you’re not seeing a whole hell of a lot. It’s a streetcar that means well but the term “the train to nowhere” fits this like nothing I’ve ever ridden on before. It’s a shame that you can see that the leadership in Atlanta isn’t making this Streetcar and anything connecting to it a priority. I feel terrible for the ATL folks who are getting cheated by the city & state government by their inaction.
The main problem with Atlanta is that it’s in a state that is notoriously difficult to build any kind of good transit. Georgia is unfortunately one of the most anti-rail states in the country, so as a result of that rail projects don’t get funded. That’s part of the reason why Andre Dickens was suggesting building a slow people mover on the beltline, because he just wants something built, and he knows that’s probably the only thing that the Georgia state government might be willing to fund. MARTA is the only transit agency in the US that get absolutely zero funding from the state, so because of that they have to get their funding from the federal government to stay afloat, because if the Georgia state government had its way, they would not only be not funding the rail system but also dismantling the entire rail system because of how hostile they are to trains. It’s really a sad thing when you think about it
Blue cities in red states are so frustrating. I know Illinois is a blue state but even there you could always feel the tension between Chicago and Springfield whenever it came to stuff that would benefit the city.
@@Thom-TRA yep, and Illinois is probably one of the most pro-rail states in the country. We are aggressively trying to expand rail access here, but even then we’re still not perfect. I mean, only recently is Metra finally agreeing to upgrade their fleet and CTA is marred by ineffective leadership and infrequent trains on a system that used to be known for its frequency. And the tension between Chicago and Springfield is actually quite ironic when you consider that 75% of Illinois’ population resides in the Chicago area
Slower than southern molasses! Wow! Great critique. I hope the political powers that be are listening! BTW, when you are in the ATL area again, come and visit Paschal's on Concourse B @ Hartsfield-- my late Great Uncle's pride & joy! 🥰
Traffic has to be designed from Walk over Bike and transit to cars and not like here the other way round. "A people mover like in Disneyland" 🙈 Oh boy!
That clipped digital recording of a bell ringing was just the cherry on top of the sh*t sundae that is the Atlanta Streetcar. If you haven't already, I'd recommend you come to Kansas City and ride our streetcar, maybe once the Main Street extension to UMKC opens sometime next year. It's got amazing ridership (being free to ride helps!) and connects a lot of popular neighborhoods together.
You can pay with a Breeze card by tapping it on there and pressing Validate. Also with the debit card, make sure you leave it in, as it’s a chip reader.
@@Thom-TRA sounds about right. lol. I wonder how they even enforce the cash fareboxes, since there’s no way to get proof of payment after dropping money into those things.
@@Thom-TRAOne wonders where the money comes from to operate the streetcar. I'd gladly ride it if I had a shot at paying the fare -- I'm scrupulous that way.
I like pretty much any kind of passenger rail transportation but if there’s anything I don’t like it’s when the speed is slower than cars or worse yet pedestrians. That gives rail transportation a bad name. Why would any city or transit operator even want whatever they have to go slow to any extent at all? That’s just plain crazy.
I loved your allusion to "A Streetcar Named Desire". 😀 I'm reminded of the day (about 15 years ago) when I rode the Phoenix light rail line. It too was sloooooooooooooooooooow. And that was light rail, with very little street running. I think we waited for traffic lights too. Anyway, it's presentations like yours that will remind cities that rapid transit is supposed to be rapid.
We've had a combination heavy rail subway/el train line since 1979. It actually has one of the highest ridership of rail lines in America. Funny that most people outside of Atlanta don't know it exist. Lol
I love the idea of putting the streetcar around beltline too, but if you'd of seen the very important thing the Mayor said next in the interview, which was "the math has to work", he has a point. He is right to question whether this is the right idea. Atlanta's traffic problem is primarily people outside the city limits traveling in and through, streetcar doesn't solve this. The neighbouring counties are very anti public transport and Georgia DOT... well... *eye roll*. Also Atlanta itself is low density, about 3,700 people per sq/mile, rough rule of thumb for streetcar is about 10,000 people per sq/mile, there's some flexibility, if there's a clear set of destinations on a route that generates ridership, but there isn't on these routes. One of the objectives was to encourage development through streetcar, well, the development is already happening and whilst it's more dense than single family, it's still not that high a density, nothing like the density Portland has seen along it's streetcar for example. Density along a lot of the suggested routes is unlikely to change significantly as developments are already in/planned on some areas and other areas are protected historic neighbourhoods/university campus. Unlike other cities that may be able to pull from state funding, there is no state funding, the city can only has to rely on their own limited budget and unpredictable federal money, they also need to consider the long term subsidies the lines will need to keep running. The math on this has to work, it's a long term commitment and Atlanta has a lot of other priorities. Really pleased to see the Mayor back more stations on Marta, revamped existing stations, new trains and more transport oriented development. It's heavy rail, which was designed to be part of a MUCH larger network, but that didn't happen, so the ridership has never been that high and therefore is currently well subsidised. Investment to encourage more usage on the system the city already has, making it more a more efficient, effective system, is a no-brainer.
The problem with the Beltline is that, although it was sold originally as a solution to Atlanta's commuter traffic, it does virtually nothing to improve that. As you said, people commute in and back out for work or for events; the VAST majority don't commute in an "inner circle."
at this point it’s hard for me to have sympathy for people who intentionally choose to live in ugly stroad-filled suburbs and commute into the city and get stuck in traffic. I mean…that’s the life they chose. the vast majority of them could easily afford to live in the city or at the very least close enough to a marta station with parking. if people don’t want to ride transit for whatever reason, they’re gonna sit in traffic and that’s their choice 🤷🏼♂️
I recently rode the historic M-Line in Dallas and that is WAY faster than what appears on camera. As much as I am militantly pro-car, I do agree that the "pods" and "BRT" and other ideas the mayor proposed were just downright awful. Stop huffing the VC money, and talk to people who actually know transit, and know it well.
@@Thom-TRA My thing is if you are going to invest $$$ into transit, do it right! Otherwise, as you said bet, people will rightfully call it out. That said when I am visiting a city it is nice having transit since rental cars are beyond insane now!
if you like streetcars that are Historic i highly Reconmened that you Review The New Orleans Regional Transit Authority aka RTA. They have 5 streetcar lines including the Historic St Charles Streetcar that dates back to 1834. The Streetcars currently in use are the 1923 Perly A Thomas 900 series cars. Next time you visit New Orleans. check out the Red lady Streetcars too.
Memphis has a few streetcars in use, as well. I dont think their system is as extensive as New Orleans, but it still is fun ro ride as well. Kenosha has a small streetcar loop in its downtown, which uses classic PCC steeetcars. This streetcar in Atlanta, reminds me of The Hop. Which is the new steeetcar route I rode when in Milwaukee, late last year. Cincinnati's new streetcar which I haven't yet ridden, is supoosedly like The Hop and also the new one in Atlanta.
It is very slow indeed as with any other modern streetcar. I am a frequent rider on the PDX streetcar. My mum's cousin lives in California town called Garden Grove and she too is worried the future streetcar might be slow and this ad would be false. The OC streetcar has received a lot of flack from people who live in the center of town. For me when it opens, there will be a station near her house. That I like but also worry about the speed. ruclips.net/video/fMmnTi8X2t4/видео.html
I’ve been on this train as well. The first time I rode it I tried to use my phone to show the one ride ticket because I have the breeze app mainly for the entire Marta system but somehow it didn’t work out that I had to pay in cash, well mostly coins which worked out. Then last time I was going to pay $1 in cash but it didn’t look like anyone else was because of a delay that was due to an accident.
That turn at the end was physically painful
That mayor interview was equally as painful!
I hope some day US transit project timelines are measured by years instead of generations...
Underrated comment
I hope so too
"Nice Slow Moving People Mover" 💀💀💀
My sentiments exactly
Hey at least a people mover is automated and has decent OTP!
@@Thom-TRA I just can't believe an elected official would even say that ugh. Like you said these sort of super slow, only kinda useful projects, just give the anti-transit crowd amunition to oppose bettter projects. Lets hope they can actually develop transit on the Beltline. We need to move away from building anymore unsustainable highways and the traffic, pollution, health problems, inequity and unsustainable development pattern they bring
That would be death for any transit anywhere.
No. Clue.
I am always amazed that Atlanta managed to build the Betline at all. It's our only hope at this point.
That interview with the mayor was painful
Especially given how pro-beltline he was just a few months earlier
autonomous pods, coming in 2020, 2025, 2030, 2035...
We’ve crawled into his @$$ on these comments and made a home in there. The whole reason the Beltline exists is because it was pitched in a citywide referendum as a transit corridor for the still being planned Streetcar to offset MARTA which could never be built as a loop line (in this country anyway)
I’m sick of all these plans turning into vapor here.
@@Thom-TRA Will Fed fund the beltline project just like they did for MARTA?
@@sammymarrco2 And we thought the RTD B-line between Denver and Boulder was the worst vaporware transit project around haha, that's getting incorporated into the Front Range Regional Rail project so will become a state Amtrak line.
Thank you again Thom. Being back here in Atlanta after living half my life in Japan riding trains and buses everyday everywhere is painful sometimes. In 2000, we had 5 extensions to MARTA Metro slated along with this new streetcar/tram idea that was taking shape. We were 4 years removed from the olympics and still had a progressive approach to transit. 24 years later, and PHOENIX, DALLAS, and even MIAMI have more shovel ready transit projects happening. It’s maddening.
Also, until we take a more comprehensive regional approach to public transit (DC metro serves 2 states and The District, Chicago has CTA, Pace and METRA; Atlanta had MARTA that only serves 2 counties out of a 12 counties core metro area), things will continue to be 💩 around here.
I’m sure the contrast was so stark!
Marta is caught in a death spiral wherein poor coverage and woefully unreliable schedule-keeping ensure that very few professionals view Marta as an acceptable commuting solution. That results in a ridership of low standards and debased acculturation-like the fellow who attempted to board shirtless, or the savages who blare their music out loud without headphones-on whom the expense of offering improved transit service would be wasted. That does allow Marta to balance its budget while replacing tired New Flyers with new Gillig BRT's, retiring 40 year old EMU's with $650 million worth of Alstom rolling stock, and improving its aged facilities. That's all cosmetic though, and won't sustainably appeal to the professional demographic. In my opinion the necessary systemic solution is to outlaw surface parking lots.
Marta is caught in a death spiral wherein poor coverage and woefully unreliable schedule-keeping ensure that very few professionals view Marta as an acceptable commuting solution. That results in a ridership of low standards and debased acculturation-like the fellow who attempted to board shirtless, or the savages who blare their music out loud without headphones-for whose benefit the additional expense of providing proper transit service is a perpetual non-starter. That does allow Marta to balance its budget while replacing tired New Flyers with new Gillig BRT's, retiring 40 year old EMU's with $650 million worth of Stadler rolling stock, and improving its aged facilities. That's all cosmetic though, and won't sustainably appeal to the professional demographic. As a person who has also spent time in Tokyo and Atlanta, the systemic solution Marta requires is for the City of Atlanta to outlaw surface parking lots of over five- or six spaces.
That interview with Andre Dickens was....extremely painful to watch. A streetcar shouldn't be just a tourist attraction, they should be actual services for residents! If American city governments want people to use streetcars instead of just taking a bus, then the key is actually making it useful and convenient, with transit-priority signals, good frequencies, solid feeder connections with other transit, closing streets for cars so streetcars aren't blocked, transit-oriented development, and expansion! And when I hear him say people mover...it makes me think of places like Detroit and Singapore's Punggol and Bukit Panjang. Though to be fair to Detroit, the DPM is a circulator because it was meant to have different rail lines as feeders in the original ambitious plan, but it and the suburbs couldn't decide on anything for the 600 million promised by Gerald Ford, and so only the circulator got built and the money was withdrawn by Reagan. So the QLine built in 2017 is a step closer to that vision. Miami's Metromover is successful, but that's because that system has different loops and Miami has booming development to back up ridership along with connecting to Metrorail, Metrobus bus loops, and also Brightline.
But with Bukit Panjang in Singapore, a people mover (or should I say LRT...) is the worst solution for it! For starters, they call it an LRT when it's very much not. They chose to build a people mover (while cheaper to build, it costs more to operate than the MRT) with very low capacity in an extremely dense area (you'd need three of the LRT cars connected together just to match the capacity of a single MRT car; they're two connected together). The accessibility is very bad as even if stations have elevators, they're useless when you can't cross the very busy roads to the stations without going up steps. The ride isn't comfy because of all the twists and turns (which makes the system unreliable), basically a roller coaster. And I've seen Twitter accounts post about how cool the windows are on the LRT because they're special panels made to block people's apartments when they're not cool, it's quite silly and they often don't work like they're supposed to, sometimes leaving the whole car opaque during the whole journey!
Sorry to inflict pain on you my friend 😂
We actually have a successful APM - The Plane Train at ATL Airport! But outside of Taipei’s Wenhu Brown line (which has 55 second headways and 4 car trains) a streetcar would work.
I was envisioning tram trains looping around after running from the suburbs like the ones in Europe when this whole started 20 years ago-The Beltline idea was pitched transit first, the trail was an afterthought used to secure it while
Funding could be found for the rails.
Living in Singapore, I can very much attest to this. The Bukit Panjang LRT was imposed into an already-built up town badly - even our former transport Minister admitted it was "an afterthought built under political pressure" (his exact words). A friend of mine living in Bukit Panjang vehemently despises the LRT, and it’s not hard to see why.
The Punggol and Sengkang LRT are better though (slightly only). Sengkang and Punggol’s LRT (also automated people mover) systems were built with the towns, so they’re a smoother ride. However, it is woefully under capacity. One-car trains running in the peak hours are packed to the brim (and they were one-car only for a while!), and an expansion of the system to accommodate 3-4 car trains is long overdue (but probably not happening). I take the Sengkang LRT every morning to school, and the crowds are unbearable… On the bright side, new 2-car LRT trains with gangways are coming along, but at some point in time we’re gonna need longer trains. Hopefully in the future Singapore builds trams to serve individual towns instead of “LRTs”…
Edit: grammar, and the LRT is so under-capacity that even in the afternoon during non-peak hours, my friend and I are packed like sardines in a tin when we're otw home on a 1-car automated people mover...
This is what I like about your content Thom. You are pro train but still critical. I feel, that I get the full picture here. Pros and Cons. And to be honest, this line is strange. Why did they built a one-way loop in the first place? I don't get it. It just feels like a tourist attraction for an outsider like me... Also, I liked the look into the past and future! Let us pray they get their s**t together....
I appreciate it! I’m trying to be critical while not saying it shouldn’t exist. Because I do appreciate it, it is useful, and my criticism comes from a place of wanting it to be better!
bruh when the mayor said possibly autonomous pods I wanted to bash my keyboard into my monitor.
You can bill the insurance to the mayors office lol
What do you bet he had some venture capital bros come on by and wave some pipe-dream idea in his face and he goes "Oh this is genius!" without realizing it's smoke and mirrors...
WTYP just did an episode about the tragedy of Jacksonville turning their people mover into "The Ultimate Urban Circulator" and I highly recommend taking the time to watch it.
@@jonathankleinow2073 Yeah I listined to that. tradgety is an accurate way of describing it.
And when he mentioned "nice and slow people movers", I slapped myself!
how to fix it: 1. run more than 15 minute frequencies, im tired of cities acting like "we discovered if the train comes every 15 minutes, people will ride it!!!!1111!!!!" like BRO cities knew that 50 years ago. and 15 minutes is not enough for a streetcar. Atlanta should buy more LRV's and run, imo, 3 minutes peak and 6 minutes off peak, kinda like Houston Metrorail. 2. dedicated lanes and signal priority 3. more lines, instead of it just being a downtown circulator, make the streetcar into an URBAN circulator!
All this right here! Keep speaking facts
15 mins is bare minimum for a bus. Trains should always operate less than 10min. I'm looking at you MARTA with 20 min headways
@@LouisChang-le7xo In theory, in practice many cities see 1 hour as the minimum frequency, and 30 minutes as standard.
We would kill for 15min frequency all day on the RTD light rail here in Denver, it's 30min off peak here 15min during weekday peak. The commuter rail runs at 15min off peak and 10min peak, but only serves the northern part of the metro area.
The clip from the Mayor is infuriating. It reminds me of anytime Mariel Bowser talks about the DC Metro. You can just tell, she's never actually used it and has no concept of who uses it, how it's used, or what is needed. Atlanta's Mayor didn't say it, but you could just hear "NIMBYs and businesses are already complaining, and I'm going to do whatever they say" behind his words.
Ah yes, “all 6 lines stop at Gallery Place.” I still cringe whenever I think of that moment.
Why would businesses complain about a transit program, if it's good for their business?
@@onetwothreeabc it's pretty common, apparently, for business owners in urban areas to drastically overestimate the amount of business generated by people who drive and park near their business. That's not just in the US, either. Even though example after example can be shown where removing parking and improving access via public transit, sidewalk, and bike lanes has a positive impact on business, they still fight it. What you sometimes find is that the business owner themselves don't want the parking removed, because they want to be able to drive in from the suburbs and park "free" (on the tax payer's dollar).
Maybe part of it is that people who live in car-dependent suburbs can't conceive of people who don't HAVE to drive to do anything.
Or Dorval Carter with the CTA
They had one majority white suburb secede from the city a few years ago to block belt line construction in their area.
I don’t know what’s more painful, that streetcar trying to pull out of the station or the mayor talking about the beltline…
Somebody call a doctor
I don't know either! It is anticlimactic that the streetcar ground to a halt, and also silly that the mayor seriously considered autonomous pods and "nice, slow people movers".
I'll say, @@Thom-TRA!
The Beltline is extremely popular in Atlanta, especially the East Beltline. There has been a ton of development that has taken place on it and it's the most lively pedestrian area in the city with many walkable live-work- play type neighborhoods attached to it. It's the perfect place for a quality street car line. The streetcar line you rode on is being extended to reach a section of the East Beltline howerver, and 4 additional Marta train stations are planned to be opened at Beltline connecting points.
I went to school in Grand Rapids Michigan which also has an East Beltline
I hate to say it but MARTA has no intention of adding 4 new subway stops. They are trying to deflect from answering where the money went from the extra sales tax that was supposed to fund 14 projects including 2 light rail lines. They have spent almost half the money with the only thing even started is a limited bus rapid transit line. The light rail along with what was originally promised will not be done. Them adding the 4 new stops has about the same likelihood of them building a rail line to Stonecrest, which they promise to DeKalb county residents every time it comes time to renew the one cent sales tax dedicated to them. MARTA opened it's last subway station in 2000. I doubt if there is anyone left there who would even know how to add infill stations or new rail.
@@anderra88 Where do you get your budget spending data from? I'm curious because I would love to know for my own use. If what you say is true it's a damn shame but I'm not surprised. Building heavy lines is one of the most expensive endeavors anyone could ever embark upon. And almost all major heavy line systems around the World have built what they have with help from not just local or regional but national funding. MARTA receives very little federal funding beyond the initial funding they received and don't receive much locally either. They also don't receive hardly anything from the state being that we are in a very anti public transit anti Atlanta State. So they are basically tasked with maintaining and expanding a heavy rail system used by an entire region with only local funding. This is a stupid burden to put on the city.
@@anderra88 When the mayor made that announcement, no one at MARTA knew anything about it. He literally pulled it out of his...
@@gacaptain This isn't heavy rail. This would be LRT
I think i would extend the streetcar northwest via Georgia Tech, Home Park, and Berkeley Park to Channing Valley as well as southeast via Cabbagetown to Glenwood Park. I think this would increase ridership and help cover some gaps where MARTA doesn’t go. There are some dense areas that currently don’t have rail service there and i am surprised no one has even thought of this. I would also give the streetcar it’s own right of way where possible to allow for more light rail-like service.
A nice, slow moving people mover“ I think he is saying the quiet part loud
Very much so
The Georgia Aquarium is quite a cool place! It has more than more than 11 million US gallons of water, or around 42 million liters! It was the largest aquarium in the world from its opening in 2005 until 2012 when it was surpassed by the Marine Life Park (formerly SEA Aquarium) in Singapore and the Chimelong Ocean Kingdom in China in 2014. To prepare the Aquarium for opening in 2005, staff piped in 8 million gallons (or 30.3 million liters) of City of Atlanta tap water, which is enough to fill 160,000 bathtubs, to fill the exhibits! After treating it to remove chemicals and impurities, the staff had to turn this fresh water into salt water for marine habitats. To do this, they added 750 2,000-pound (907 kg) sacks of Instant Ocean sea salt, for a total of 1.5 million pounds, or over 680,000 kilograms! That's the equivalent of more than 920,000 containers of table salt!
The facility recycles almost 99 percent of it over 11 million gallons of water! A treatment and reclamation system cleans and recycles the water, losing only a little to evaporation and the protein skimmers that help remove debris. Behind the scenes, the Aquarium uses three types of filtration, and it takes over 500 pumps, 148 sand filters and 82 protein skimmers to filter the whole Aquarium!
One day the current Stanley cup girlies are gonna show up to class with Georgia Aquarium tanks. “Hydrate” they will screech.
I was 2019 in ATL and I loved the Marta System. I really enjoyed the City
The streetcar at first shown looks like the trolley vehicles in San Diego but red instead of blue, and all the trolley lines have red trolleys but we still have a few different lines.
They are the exact same model built by the same factory
That left turn at the end from Peachtree onto Ellis was signal-controlled when I regularly drove through the intersection a couple of years ago. (It kind of has to be because the streetcar crosses so many lanes of traffic there.) I wonder if there was a technical glitch with the light that day.
I really hope so
I would say it looks good for a way to get around the city centre if it has a larger LRT or metro system to get in the cit, here in Newcastle in England we have a perfect metro system but I could definitely see a small tram route just to get around the main attractions
That’s pretty much what it does! MARTA brings people into the city
@@Thom-TRA is it’s good at moving people around the city centre or is it really that unbelievably slow
8:39 I LOVE that this student's Masters Thesis was put to use by the city! (sort of, eventually)
Great footage, thanks for sharing
Wow, I'm blown away by its punctuality 😅
I found this quite an informative video! I liked how the bell sounds classical! The streetcar itself, on the other hand... can use improvements. Personally, I, like you, hope that Atlanta does decide to extend the Atlanta Streetcar onto the BeltLine. Indeed, I was not even aware that any other plan was even considered, since it makes perfect sense for the former railroad line to be a railroad line once again.
Thanks for the video!
You’re welcome! Always glad when people learn new things
Meanwhile here in Denver, the RTD light rail doesn't use a bell, they have a heavy rail style e-bell and a wimpy recording of a freight train horn. The commuter rail on the other hand has a proper heavy rail e-bell and a massive set of K5LAs that look almost too big for their silverliner 5s and are loud enough to wake the dead.
@@mrvwbug4423, I didn't know that! I wonder where I can hear audio of this?
For now, I'll tell you that in my home city, San Diego, the Trolley doesn't have a bell like an Atlanta Streetcar, nor does it pretend to be a freight train like the RTD light rail: the San Diego Trolley just uses a buzzer.
Thanks for the information!
2:51 that sounds like the patco sound
I'm guessing they want to keep this streetcar extra extra extra safe because it's actually more of a discovery or pilot project than anything else. The pundits can bark about it being slow, but the experts know it can speed way way up. The real deal sinker for future expansion would be some sort of accident that causes injuries, so thats TOP PRIORITY . . . they're operating on the assumption that a lot of accident prone folks could be passengers, or accident prone drivers could plow into the streetcar . . . that's the operations, planning for worse case possibilities regarding accidents, and mitigating as much risk as possible . . . this line is going to be expanded, and it's going to get quicker, and it's going to speed up in proportion to the streetcar becoming embedded into the community . . . that's my understanding, i could be wrong, but don't think so. Thanks for the nice video on the streetcar . . . and by the way, they don't want topless passengers, or passengers without shoes etc either. It's a zero tolerance policy on that too . . . no body wants this pilot project attracting people without shoes or those who go around without shirts (I don't think?) Other passengers don't like it anyway.
We have a metromover people mover system in my hometown of DOWNTOWN MIAMI. You should check that out if you haven’t already. Side note: I live like 4 hours from Atlanta in PORT WENTWORTH, GA.
I have been on the metro mover! Video will be coming soon
@@Thom-TRA awesome and have you also experienced the METRORAIL?
@@allenmondesir yes. You can already see that video on my channel!
@@Thom-TRA I can't wait to see it! At least Miami's Metro-Mover is the most functional & useful one in the US.
Do you plan to visit Charlotte, NC and cover their light rail and street car?
I have many years ago but I’m sure I’ll go back someday!
As soon as you said "Welcome to Atlanta", the Jermaine Dupri song started playing in my head. So.... the modern American streetcar is a grift by Siemens to sell rail equipment to subpar transit systems that don't go enough places and are slow?
Siemens is rolling in the dough that’s all I know for sure
Thanks
Thank you so much!
Another great video! This wasn’t up and running the last time I was in Atlanta. Look forward to trying this and seeing the new MARTA trains when when they’re in service.
Yes, I am looking forward to the future as well. It seems cautiously bright.
Awesome video as always from trains are awesome i always watch till the end
Appreciate it!
And I thought the RTD R-line in Denver was painfully slow haha. "Nice slow moving people mover" he just doesn't get it, that belt line begs for a fast, heavy commuter train, throw some silverliner 5s at that belt line.
It'll be great once it's completed.
Sacrt Sacramento does have lights rail too
I look forward to being able to say back in my day we could walk faster than the tram. Seriously the streetcar needs to be dramatically sped up and that is 100% why it is underused.
“Okay grandpa” they’ll say 😂
Yes, the mayor keeps back tracking, I hope they get a different mayor for sure over Atlanta. What's the point of the beltline? They should have prioritized the rail first, then the trails. And it's just the majority in my by the minority that complain about it. It's business minority. Not really the residents that much complain about the idea of light rail. I think by far most of them like the idea of it.
I think they think that it will be bad for business for them, reality would be would actually probably bring more business.
But you are absolutely right. They should prioritize the light rail. It shouldn't be stopping at the stop lights.
I rode the Atlanta streetcar. I only rode it two stops from Centennial Olympic Park. Next time I visit Atlanta I'll check out the Martin Luther King district.
You definitely should!
IMHO, if a streetcar runs in mixed traffic and doesn't have signal priority, it's just a really expensive bus. Upgrade it to a true light rail line or better or simply don't bother.
Then "simply don't bother" will always be the case.
@@onetwothreeabcI mean it would be better taking that money and building a BRT or using it on expanded regular bus service or make it a down payment on a real rail system.
@@Geotpf That's what MARTA has been doing - building more BRTs. A lot of rail fans aren't happy about it.
And trams usually gain flexibility with dedicated lanes. If a tram breaks down or crashes into something, if there are crossover switches, other trams can use the switches to bypass the broken down tram.
@@grahamturner2640 If you give buses a dedicated lane, the effect is about the same.
MARTA is pretty much a joke to most natives here. Streetcar crawls and goes nowhere, trains have basically 2 mainline routes with zero provisions for express service from the terminals to downtown and they are proposing 4 infill stations to further slow down service. The only time my contemporaries and I ride it are from the terminals to GA Tech/Falcons games and shows at the Fox. As you discovered, Breeze is no breeze, more like a puff.
Look at DC Streetcar 😂 that also goes nowhere, I’m not sure what’s up with these cities and the streetcars that go to nowhere.
Maybe do some research on what these systems were supposed to be and I’m sure some of your questions will be answered
As an atlanta resident who frequently takes marta (but rarely did until about a year ago), it’s honestly pretty great. I’m slowly phasing my car out of my life, and I feel that most people don’t ride marta due to misconceptions, prejudices, or because they choose to live far from a station. that’s obviously their choice, but I’m going to choose to spend as little of my life in traffic as possible. also combining biking with the train and taking my bike on marta feels like a cheat code. I’ll happily spend a few hundred dollars a year to ride transit and save the ~$10k I’d spend on car ownership
Slow streetcar but it looks elegant. I never rode on a streetcar in Atlanta, but I did rode on a MARTA a few times.
It does have very nice colors!
@@Thom-TRA Indeed it does. Have you been to Detroit and Milwaukee? They also have streetcars there up north.
@@alessandrohenriques8419 yes, I have!
@@Thom-TRA That’s awesome! I also love trains and they are super awesome
A streetcar running in mixed traffic is a waste of money. That's what a bus does. Even buses have traffic pre-emption now. US streetcars are mostly built not to solve a transportation problem but as a downtown marketing device, an expensive downtown marketing device. Cities in Europe have good examples of how to build a streetcar line.
The Atlanta mayor demonstrates the problem with most US city politicians, they have no experience using transit and have no idea what the economic potential of good rapid transit is, despite having a heavy rail subway in his city. The fact that he cites a "people mover" as a legitimate transit option means that only transit he's ever used is the Atlanta airport people mover. I think mayors should be required to use the transit system to get to/from work at least one week a month. Could be a good way to connect with the constituents that can't pay for $500/plate dinners to talk to him and to see what is really happening on the streets of the city.
I’d also like to see him point out which people movers in France and Italy he’s referring to 😂
The eastside of the beltline is so popular & gentrified they dont want the streetcar there anymore. They would rather have cars.
It’s only a few wealthy loud people who believe that. Make sure to contact the mayor and your council person to say you support rail.
we hear the will of the people and slower it is! 🙂
yeah it does move slow. I rode just for the heck of it and it takes 30 min for the whole loop. I would still take it to avoid hot and cold temperatures. Although it seems that the majority of people that rides it are homeless that want to sit and chill
Would love you to do future video on the Kansas City streetcar. Was just there, and if anywhere needed a robust metro system…
It’s interesting how many times this comment has shown up today
You need to come to Charlotte, NC and try the light rail there
comparing french and italian trams to slow moving people movers is a crime in itself.
Yeah I was like what? What is this man even talking about?
@@Thom-TRA I think the Mayor has this Romantic notion of streetcars in Europe where tourists get to see all of the beautiful Architecture & street life as they ride them. Somebody needs to Wake him up & tell him Atlanta ain't nothing like Europe!
Nashville has a chance for smart light rail ,the former mayor shot down by planning to much at once ,
FYI Atlanta is also the home city of Delta Airlines!
Great video! The Beltline sounds like a wonderful idea-if it gets built as rail. The fact that pods and “nice and slow” peoplemovers were suggested is actually sad. Gadgetbahns definitely aren’t the move here. Perhaps Atlanta could look to the St. Louis MetroLink as an example, since they (successfully) turned old freight rights of way into a modern transit system! Another example is (although much less extensive) the Tide in Norfolk, VA.
Watching the Trolley at the end was so painful to watch.
"We're talking about a city with some of the worst traffic in the world" as someone who's spent a lot of time down there growing up, I can confidently say that is no exaggeration. It sucks, the highways make very little sense, and God forbid you come a circle. My uncle who's lived down there for about 20-25 years has labeled Atlanta as "The city of eternal road construction"
Don't get me wrong, Atlanta is a great city and I have incredibly fond memories of railfanning near the old Southern Railway HQ when the old bridge was still there (and other locations but sadly not inman or tilford yard, never got to go there). It's just driving there is a nightmare and this is coming from someone who lives in Baltimore, AKA the capitol of terrible road planning (like navigating a maze) and the worst drivers.
Ah, I had no idea you had ties to Atlanta! Hope you enjoyed my coverage
Great video. Would you ever do a video on your opinions of all US streetcar systems?
Again good to see Lyndsey keeping an eye on you lol.
That’s what I’m working on!
Awesome to hear!
Only slightly more convenient than the moving sidewalk.
I'm going to Atlanta at the end of May and the nearest MARTA station to my hotel is PeachTree Center. If I take the street car one stop Westward it may save walking a few blocks and get me slightly closer to my hotel but my question to you is, is it worth doing?
Definitely try it once just for the experience. Especially if the weather is hot it might be nice.
Im not sure where they went wrong with this project. It should have at least gone to King Memorial Marta station. I dont see it running on the Beltline ever! Especially now that they want Marta stations on the Beltline.
I suppose that ride would’ve even been a lot slower if the passenger had decided not to put on his shirt. Presumably there was no subsequent drama that followed because passengers can sometimes turn ugly and confrontational if they are told to put on a shirt, pay their fare, or to not smoke or vape.
And people wonder why Americans don't like public transportation.
So there is existing railroad ROW (right-of-way) circling the city of Atlanta just sitting there? Atlanta, get the city of St. Louis on the line ASAP lol. The original section on the St. Louis Metrolink was built on existing ROW so it could be done in Atlanta 🤷🏿♂
As far the nice slow moving people mover, just have the Mayor watch the last clip of that streetcar attempting to leave the station. That was brutal lol, I'll assume the operator had the walk speed button activated by accident 😆
I didn't have the conductor come round on the West Midlands Metro in Birmingham, so free ride. My conductor was even less proactive than yours.
What conductor?
@@kc3302 The one supposed to collect my £2.20 from Library to Bull Street, and the one who should have taken Thom's fare.
@@seprishere there is no conductor on the Atlanta streetcar
I really don't expect fast moving people mover in a city at grade level. I'm sure it has to do with traffic (vehicle and pedestrian). That being said, I'm sure it could go a little faster if allowed by the city insurance company.
Thom, I just googled the population of Metro Atlanta, it is 6,307,26. Forget about the streetcar. It's an embarrassment for such a big Metro Area to be without any train service.
They do have a metro system too
Looking forward to the urban circulator video. Street cars in the modern us face such an uphill battle.. I rode Kansas City and it was pleasant. But so many street cars are worse than well implemented BRT. But brt is so often done poorly too.
Here’s how I see it:
Good streetcar > good BRT > bad streetcar > bad BRT
If this is all that people have in the largest city in my state, then I’m rather disappointed in Georgia.
The last time I took the streetcar was years ago. It was fine; I was younger and cared more about the novelty than any practical considerations because there’s been no passenger rail transport of any sort here in Columbus since probably 1971.
I wouldn’t imagine many people who rely on Atlanta’s underdeveloped public transportation system would react very well to their mayor after seeing him interviewed like that. Unless streetcars are thought of as merely tourist attractions (which shouldn’t be the case), people tend to work and have schedules, and thus wouldn’t find much use from a “nice, slow-moving” vehicle.
Sacrt tram bell sound like e bells
The problem of traffic around Atlanta won’t be addressed until significant rail infrastructure is added back to the city. Encircling Atlanta won’t alleviate traffic coming from commuters around the perimeter so outward expansion is needed. Annoyingly my county (Gwinnett) is about to ask 17B for a freaking bus rapid transit line. Like what?? Just use trains and get it done in a timely manner bc the previous train ask apparently said 20+ years to develop
Which train line would you like to see in Gwinnett county?
@@onetwothreeabc considering there are none currently, I would like to extend Marta from doraville up to Buford. Then perpendicular to that, have street car lines that go from snellville to Alpharetta (but a bunch of parallel paths as needed). Duluth/pleasant hill road could be An amazing place if they redeveloped it with the same great international restaurants there. I think it would more or less look like a rotated grid
I know some of that extends outside the county towards Alpharetta but I can dream
@@ryanc4955 Gwinnett voted turned down the proposal to increase tax and extend MARTA. I think if they didn't ask for tax increase there would be a lot more support. After all, Gwinnett's economy is booming and the tax base is already increased. They should just use the surplus to build the rail line.
After all, it's all cost issue. BRT costs A LOT less than rail system (see MARTA's own BRT line vs rail analysis). If BRT would cost Gwinette 17B, the rail system can only cost more - 50B maybe?
@@onetwothreeabc yeah I really want to research how they came up with such an astronomical value for BRT. I wish I worked for the county so I could get trains and cut the cost down. I remember seeing Paris do a massive overhaul with tons of new stations for a reasonable price so what’s the problem here
Thom, for the love of god, if MARTA expands their streetcar network, they're going to be blocking up traffic all over downtown Atlanta as slow as they are, MARTA needs a commuter rail network instead, LOL!!!😂😂😂
VTA through downtown San Jose feels just as slow. Takes forever to get through and you could almost walk it faster.
and when it does go somewhat fast its in the median of a highway. It crawls along while silicon valley teslas occupied by rich technocrats streak past. Good luck with frequencies, and land use around it is horrible since it's mostly parking lots and hourly bus connections.
This is in contrast to SF where you can take Muni, BART, and Caltrain.
People keep asking me when I’m going to cover VTA
The Atlanta street car is a joke among trainset enthusiast. Everyone in atl also thinks its a joke, I really hope Andre Dickens doesn't mess with the plan for the street car extension. Everyone I talk to loves the idea of connecting some of the biggest retail districts in Atlanta to downtown and other marta stops.
If it gets extended properly I think it has a lot of great potential
Mario Kart DS was the first game with online multiplayer ;
They shouid just put some linked golf carts on the Beltline for passengers. Not enough room there for a tram. Edit- and make it free too. Or a long term pass. So they don't have to stop and wait for everybody to pay their little fairs.
That sounds like a very bad idea
@Thom-TRA ha! You don't sugarcoat it. Why? A lot cheaper than some big trams, that I'm sure cost millions of dollars.
It is called Marta Streetcar
7:26 sad streetcar
those are the same trains as the san diego mts. the newer low floor trolleys that are replacing the old ones
That’s true
You say it's barely walking pace, and yet Warrington to London Euston is 104 mph non-stop (I was on a late one which was actually 112 mph). So clearly "transit" encompasses a range of speeds.
I’m curious what a 100 mph train in the UK has to do with a tram in Atlanta…
@@Thom-TRA "Range of speeds". Your tram will indeed not be 112 mph.But will Birmingham to DC be 112 mph even if Birmingham to Wolverhampton is not? Obviously Library to Bull Street is likely 10 mph average.
Yeah I dont fully understand why these streetcars are so common, they cost alot and I think in the mean time it would be better to have BRT in the central area so that cross town buses could be faster and more useful. But our stigma of buses means they dont spur development like rail does.
I don’t think it has as much to do with the stigma as it does with the perceived permanence of railroad tracks. They’re a more visual indicator that a region is willing to invest and stay in a particular corridor.
What these streetcars really need is to keep expanding and becoming more useful to more people. At this point I think the last thing we need to do is remind politicians that BRT exists, since they have a habit of taking everything that should be rail and making it bus instead.
@@Thom-TRA They need to at least add TPS and lanes. Would they run trains like you rode the on Beltline ROW or would it be like MAX/Seattle Light rail cars? Beucase I thought that those streetcars and LR were incompatible.
@@sammymarrco2 they’re fully compatible! In fact, Atlanta uses the same cars as Seattle, Portland, SLC, Charlotte, San Diego, etc
@@Thom-TRA interesting, they look different enough to seem like different versions. But i know which one is built for each transit system so there are small changes. Thanks, my understand has changed a bit!
How would you propose to improve the Atlanta street car?
He addressed this in the video.
I dont think light rail will get built on the beltline. Atlanta was built on rail. But now, we're all about cars. Morning else will do.
I really hope you’re wrong but I’m worried you’re right …
I like the video 😊
I’m glad!
@@Thom-TRA your welcome and looking forward to seeing the video the one you posted soon
I still don’t know why they didn’t invest the money into MARTA expansion along I-75. I hated this plan from day 1.
I’ve ridden on the Atlanta Streetcar before and it’s nice but it’s SLOW. That’s not something you use if you’re rushing to get somewhere, that’s plainly for sightseeing & truthfully, you’re not seeing a whole hell of a lot. It’s a streetcar that means well but the term “the train to nowhere” fits this like nothing I’ve ever ridden on before. It’s a shame that you can see that the leadership in Atlanta isn’t making this Streetcar and anything connecting to it a priority. I feel terrible for the ATL folks who are getting cheated by the city & state government by their inaction.
I enjoy that video👍👍
Thank you!
About that in depth video, what is your opinion on the kc street car?
They’re expanding soon right?
7:52 can you tell me what happened why was it sitting?
Just waiting for the light to change
The main problem with Atlanta is that it’s in a state that is notoriously difficult to build any kind of good transit. Georgia is unfortunately one of the most anti-rail states in the country, so as a result of that rail projects don’t get funded. That’s part of the reason why Andre Dickens was suggesting building a slow people mover on the beltline, because he just wants something built, and he knows that’s probably the only thing that the Georgia state government might be willing to fund. MARTA is the only transit agency in the US that get absolutely zero funding from the state, so because of that they have to get their funding from the federal government to stay afloat, because if the Georgia state government had its way, they would not only be not funding the rail system but also dismantling the entire rail system because of how hostile they are to trains. It’s really a sad thing when you think about it
Blue cities in red states are so frustrating. I know Illinois is a blue state but even there you could always feel the tension between Chicago and Springfield whenever it came to stuff that would benefit the city.
@@Thom-TRA yep, and Illinois is probably one of the most pro-rail states in the country. We are aggressively trying to expand rail access here, but even then we’re still not perfect. I mean, only recently is Metra finally agreeing to upgrade their fleet and CTA is marred by ineffective leadership and infrequent trains on a system that used to be known for its frequency. And the tension between Chicago and Springfield is actually quite ironic when you consider that 75% of Illinois’ population resides in the Chicago area
Rare for the largest city to be the state capital; Massachusetts, Hawaii also spring to mind but there might be some other ones too .
Phoenix
denver, providence, nashville
Ohio
@@NealCMH that’s….a state.
@@TransitAndTeslas The biggest city in Ohio (which is Columbus) is the capital.
Slower than southern molasses! Wow! Great critique. I hope the political powers that be are listening! BTW, when you are in the ATL area again, come and visit Paschal's on Concourse B @ Hartsfield-- my late Great Uncle's pride & joy! 🥰
Dang it! I was there last week. Wish I knew!
@@Thom-TRA Good Lord willing, there will be other times my friend.
Traffic has to be designed from Walk over Bike and transit to cars and not like here the other way round.
"A people mover like in Disneyland" 🙈 Oh boy!
That clipped digital recording of a bell ringing was just the cherry on top of the sh*t sundae that is the Atlanta Streetcar. If you haven't already, I'd recommend you come to Kansas City and ride our streetcar, maybe once the Main Street extension to UMKC opens sometime next year. It's got amazing ridership (being free to ride helps!) and connects a lot of popular neighborhoods together.
My parents filmed clips of it for me once but I’d love to check it out myself someday!
God that sounded terrible.
I'm pretty sure those streetcars are Siemens S700s, not S70s
Before 2019? S70
After 2019? S700
Atlanta streetcar vehicles: built in 2014
@@Thom-TRA okay, because I was a little confused as to why people were calling those S70s. I live in Portland, so I see what I think are S700s a lot.
And these trains look and sound almost identical to our Type 5s and 6s.
You can pay with a Breeze card by tapping it on there and pressing Validate.
Also with the debit card, make sure you leave it in, as it’s a chip reader.
Breeze readers weren’t working. Neither was the chip reader.
@@Thom-TRA sounds about right. lol.
I wonder how they even enforce the cash fareboxes, since there’s no way to get proof of payment after dropping money into those things.
@@TransitAndTeslas I don’t think fare enforcement is enough of a priority for them to think that hard about it lol
@@Thom-TRAOne wonders where the money comes from to operate the streetcar. I'd gladly ride it if I had a shot at paying the fare -- I'm scrupulous that way.
I like pretty much any kind of passenger rail transportation but if there’s anything I don’t like it’s when the speed is slower than cars or worse yet pedestrians. That gives rail transportation a bad name. Why would any city or transit operator even want whatever they have to go slow to any extent at all? That’s just plain crazy.
I loved your allusion to "A Streetcar Named Desire". 😀 I'm reminded of the day (about 15 years ago) when I rode the Phoenix light rail line. It too was sloooooooooooooooooooow. And that was light rail, with very little street running. I think we waited for traffic lights too. Anyway, it's presentations like yours that will remind cities that rapid transit is supposed to be rapid.
Those are the cta 5000 seats!
aren't the new "S70"'s called S700's now?
Yes, but these are not new and definitely S70s
@@Thom-TRA well i mean retroactively renamed them, e.g. trimet calls its type 5's from 2015 as S700
Wait.. so Atlanta DOES have subway?
Yes, see my last video!
We've had a combination heavy rail subway/el train line since 1979. It actually has one of the highest ridership of rail lines in America. Funny that most people outside of Atlanta don't know it exist. Lol
I love the idea of putting the streetcar around beltline too, but if you'd of seen the very important thing the Mayor said next in the interview, which was "the math has to work", he has a point. He is right to question whether this is the right idea. Atlanta's traffic problem is primarily people outside the city limits traveling in and through, streetcar doesn't solve this. The neighbouring counties are very anti public transport and Georgia DOT... well... *eye roll*. Also Atlanta itself is low density, about 3,700 people per sq/mile, rough rule of thumb for streetcar is about 10,000 people per sq/mile, there's some flexibility, if there's a clear set of destinations on a route that generates ridership, but there isn't on these routes. One of the objectives was to encourage development through streetcar, well, the development is already happening and whilst it's more dense than single family, it's still not that high a density, nothing like the density Portland has seen along it's streetcar for example. Density along a lot of the suggested routes is unlikely to change significantly as developments are already in/planned on some areas and other areas are protected historic neighbourhoods/university campus. Unlike other cities that may be able to pull from state funding, there is no state funding, the city can only has to rely on their own limited budget and unpredictable federal money, they also need to consider the long term subsidies the lines will need to keep running. The math on this has to work, it's a long term commitment and Atlanta has a lot of other priorities.
Really pleased to see the Mayor back more stations on Marta, revamped existing stations, new trains and more transport oriented development. It's heavy rail, which was designed to be part of a MUCH larger network, but that didn't happen, so the ridership has never been that high and therefore is currently well subsidised. Investment to encourage more usage on the system the city already has, making it more a more efficient, effective system, is a no-brainer.
The problem with the Beltline is that, although it was sold originally as a solution to Atlanta's commuter traffic, it does virtually nothing to improve that. As you said, people commute in and back out for work or for events; the VAST majority don't commute in an "inner circle."
The math has to math but the English has to English too my friend
at this point it’s hard for me to have sympathy for people who intentionally choose to live in ugly stroad-filled suburbs and commute into the city and get stuck in traffic. I mean…that’s the life they chose. the vast majority of them could easily afford to live in the city or at the very least close enough to a marta station with parking. if people don’t want to ride transit for whatever reason, they’re gonna sit in traffic and that’s their choice 🤷🏼♂️
I recently rode the historic M-Line in Dallas and that is WAY faster than what appears on camera. As much as I am militantly pro-car, I do agree that the "pods" and "BRT" and other ideas the mayor proposed were just downright awful. Stop huffing the VC money, and talk to people who actually know transit, and know it well.
To think that today would be the day I find myself agreeing with someone who is militantly pro-car!
@@Thom-TRA My thing is if you are going to invest $$$ into transit, do it right! Otherwise, as you said bet, people will rightfully call it out. That said when I am visiting a city it is nice having transit since rental cars are beyond insane now!
if you like streetcars that are Historic i highly Reconmened that you Review The New Orleans Regional Transit Authority aka RTA. They have 5 streetcar lines including the Historic St Charles Streetcar that dates back to 1834. The Streetcars currently in use are the 1923 Perly A Thomas 900 series cars. Next time you visit New Orleans. check out the Red lady Streetcars too.
My family was just there! They got some footage for me but I’d like to check it out myself someday
@@Thom-TRA absolutely you should our street cars will not disappoint and they are more historically fancier than Atlanta
Memphis has a few streetcars in use, as well. I dont think their system is as extensive as New Orleans, but it still is fun ro ride as well.
Kenosha has a small streetcar loop in its downtown, which uses classic PCC steeetcars. This streetcar in Atlanta, reminds me of The Hop. Which is the new steeetcar route I rode when in Milwaukee, late last year. Cincinnati's new streetcar which I haven't yet ridden, is supoosedly like The Hop and also the new one in Atlanta.
It is very slow indeed as with any other modern streetcar. I am a frequent rider on the PDX streetcar. My mum's cousin lives in California town called Garden Grove and she too is worried the future streetcar might be slow and this ad would be false. The OC streetcar has received a lot of flack from people who live in the center of town. For me when it opens, there will be a station near her house. That I like but also worry about the speed. ruclips.net/video/fMmnTi8X2t4/видео.html
I’ve been on this train as well. The first time I rode it I tried to use my phone to show the one ride ticket because I have the breeze app mainly for the entire Marta system but somehow it didn’t work out that I had to pay in cash, well mostly coins which worked out. Then last time I was going to pay $1 in cash but it didn’t look like anyone else was because of a delay that was due to an accident.