Thank you so much for this video!!! this is very informative. I've been speculating from the begenning that it's a controller issue. I can only hope the newer versions are upgraded when I get mine back. I'm going to inform my viewers of your video. Thanks for this info!
You are welcome. I did not get to look at the new controller that replaced this one. They are sealed inside the shell and I would have had to break open the silicon to get a look at it. I have no idea if the new version is better or the same steaming turd as this one is from a year ago. We can only hope! *** Thanks for sending people my way.
@@de-bodgery hey bro absolutely!!! I believe in helping others and spreading the info, especially when someone is knowledgeable in a specific area. That's interesting about the new versions. I just knew something had to be wrong with the controller. It's good to have you around!!! I keep it real. Gotta tell the good and bad. People need to know what's really going on!!!!
@@v_tha_sapien5742 That's my policy too. If I know something, I might as well make it known to anybody else it might be useful too! I'm not looking for adulation or praise. I honestly don't care to have my ego stroked and prefer that people don't bother me with that sort of thing. I want to stick to observations, tests and actual examples if possible. AKA...keep it real! *** The new controller that just walked out of my friends shop yesterday, I am curious if it will be dead in another year or less. I'm skeptical of its longevity. A few nifty throttle curves won't fix the reliability issues!
I watched V_Tha_Sapien video talking about your discovery of the Dualtron Storm Limited controller because my limited controller burned out just the same as his. I had to ship my limited back to VoroMotors to get it fixed/repaired thankfully it was covered under warranty. I only had it but maybe 4 months and my controller failed. I’m glad there is someone like you that has taken the time to look into the issue first hand and actually find and share your results. I only hope that your video finds its way to the eyes of the Dualtron designers and manufacturers so they can see the errors they made and hopefully make the corrections that you have pointed out in your video. You got my sub. Thanks so much and Keep Smiling
GEEZ! 4 months! I think that's the second fastest Storm LTD controller failure I know of. My pal with the scooter shop, he was letting someone test ride a Storm and it blew up right there in the parking lot with like 10 miles on it. Either way, these controllers ought to survive many years of use without issues. 4 months is just pathetic! *** I made this video knowing the problem existed, but never had an LTD controller to look at before. I can't show or do anything if I don't have something to analyze...so I waited until one came in with a blown controller. It was inevitable...LOL! I went looking into the controller purely out of curiosity. The stupid high failure rates really had my attention! I wanted to see why they die as much as anyone and I don't even own an LTD! Frankly, if I did, I'd be pulling the controller out ASAP and replace it with something much better such as a VESC 100250. *** I own a Dualtron City. It's not very powerful from the factory. Probably the controllers will never die, but that's becasue they are hardly ticking over! Tepid, boring, slow are good descriptions for its performance from Dualtron. However, soon it will be doing much better and then I bet it will out perform the LTD. It's getting VESC controllers among other things.
BTW...thanks for the positive comments. Minimotors knows of me. I got their attention with the hook throttle delete mod video I did. I'm sure someone there will see this video soon enough. My friend just came back from Minimotors in California with 75 scooters (No LTD's!). They saw my video on the throttles and asked him if he knew how to get one. Well of course he did since I do a lot of scooter work for him! He took one of my throttles with him to leave in their possession when he picked up the 75 scooters. IMHO...the mod is pretty self explanatory and all right there in the video. I thought it was interesting that they wanted to see my work first hand. So yeah...Minimotors knows I exist. I'm sure they won't like my disparaging comments, but oh well. How about NOT making steaming turds that blow up all the time?!
@@de-bodgery I’m curious, if Dualtron gets enough complaints about the controllers failing, if they might put out a recall on them. It’s pretty unfortunate that they chose to cut corners in a few areas just to save a buck. In the long run, their poor choices will most likely cost them more than if they would have done it right the first time. All this negative attention can’t be good for their brand. I hope you do get a call back from MiniMotors snd possibly hire you. Because Lord knows, they could use your knowledge and expertise in their current and future products. With you under their belt, I’m sure they may even save some money. Time will tell. I’m rooting for you. Thanks so much and Keep Smiling
@@steffenhawkins1323 Laughs hilariously to himself... These aren't cars or baby toys. I seriously doubt you could litigate a class action law suit and force a recall! Agreed, cutting corners just comes back to bite you in the ass. The LTD has a bad reputation to be sure! Also, nothing I have seen so far from Dualtron really inspires me with high levels of confidence. The wiring inside them is atrocious. They do seem to have decently well made frames and components, but the electrical systems seem to be laid out and designed by a 5 year old across all their EV's. Since all I've really seen so far is lots of Dualtrons, I can't really say if that is true with other scooter makers. Doesn't matter IMHO...shouldn't be done! *** It didn't work out that I could go with my friend to Minimotors to pick up the 75 scooters he bought. I did want to go. If they offered me a job, I would have potentially considered it. I don't know if that would have worked out. Probably would have been better to just consult with them. Let me destroy a single unit of each of your scooters in an attempt to discover all the bad or poorly done aspects. Document what is found, let you fix them and then I do another tear down. Any new models you are working on for the near future, let me tear it apart, see what I find and we fix them before they ever see sales. It would potentially be worth while for Minimotors to have someone like me do that for them.
@@de-bodgery I agree with you 100%. I don’t know much about other Dualtrons since this Limited is my very first branded electric scooter. Before purchasing this Dualtron, I had purchased two electric scooters from Alibaba during the first year of the pandemic from a company called TVictor aka RealMax that you can sorta custom design them. However, I was not at all educated in what to shop for when it came to purchasing my first scooter. I didn’t know anything about the battery, the voltage, amp hours, speed, the controllers, the stem wobbles, any of the maintenance, I got into the this scooter fad completely blind as to what to look or shop for. . Within the past year is when I really dove deep and became obsessed with the electric scooters and finally after countless hours researching and watching reviews on RUclips on electric scooters in when I realized that there were more reliable and better scooters available than the ones from Alibaba. That’s when I came across an ad showcasing the Dualtron Storm Limited and its impressive specs. Spent the money on on pre-ordering it, finally relieved it, ridden it, and boy, what a difference between the scooters from Alibaba and a more well known company Dualtron. And I didn’t about the difference in a SineWave and a SquareWave controller. I’m still learning as I go along. I’ve only been a electric scooter fanboy for barely 2 years. UPS just dropped off my new scooter the Kaabo Wolf King GT Pro about 30Min ago. So, I’m going to go make a unboxing video. I honestly think and believe that you are very skilled in your knowledge of electronics. It’s experienced people like yourself that should be designing these scooters instead of the current people they have right now that looks like they are going off a crayon drawing. Anyways, thanks so much and Keep Smiling
Expert overview my friend!! keep these teardowns coming the people need it!!! including myself lol!! I soon need to trouble shoot a controller/motor issue with my Dualtron thunder. is seems that the front motor is exhibiting a intermittent motor Phase short. with random pulsing resistance while under power and during free spinning.
I dislike stator shorts where they only occur under load. Clearly there is arcing from a winding to the stator, but no actual physical contact. You cant measure it with a DMM! Do you own or have access to an oscilloscope? This is what is needed to detect an arcing stator short. You spin the motor with the ground lead on the motor shaft and the scope lead on any 1 phase. Look for short duration spikes. Otherwise you should see more or less sinusoidal wave forms. Since this assumes arcing to the stator and this isn't the actual ground plane for the motor and controller, you probably won't see clean sine waves. If you see no spikes, put the test lead on another phase wire. The spikes should be pretty obvious every time a bit of current jumps the gap from the winding to the stator. It's also possible you have a controller failure. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think you have halls in the front motor on the Thunder...so that is probably not it.
@@de-bodgery Thank you for the great troubleshooting advice I have access to a nice rigol scope at my job. I will sope each phase. So can I ground them probe to the axel nut? Also the front motor does not have a hall connector to the controller. So just to confirm if I have nice sine wave from each phase then I could switch the motor controllers to see if the issue goes to the rear motor. If I see any phase spikes on the motor then would you suggest I buy a new motor?
@@InvokePerformance I'd try both grounding to the axel and to batt- and see which one works out best. Since this is potentially arcing to the stator, the axel nut ought to show the arcing best. I haven't tried this specific test myself since I lacked a motor that was arcing internally. I looked at the phases as they ran and for that, the logical ground location is BATT-. *** Don't blow up your o-scope. What's your pack voltage? Whats the maximum voltage of the o-scope? Whatever your pack voltage is, add 20% to that to account for anomolies. Back EMF can have some strong pulses and that ought to cover this. Your scope needs to have 20% or more extra voltage range capability than the pack voltage. More is better. *** No halls in front...yes...what I thought. I beleive the rear controller will still run even without halls. You can test that by disconnecting the hall cable only and trying to run the motor. The front controller can run the rear motor. See if you get that stuttering issue running the rear motor on the front controller. If you don't, the front controller is OK and that leads us to front motor issues. You can run just 1 motor at a time. Simply unplug the phase wires. The mosfets will see no load and nothing will happen to the disconnected controller. *** I don't know that you will get a sine wave or not. IF the controllers are sinusoidal and the bEMF from the motor is sinusoidal, then you will get sinusoidal wave forms on the scope. If you look through my channel, I did some bEMF tests on a bunch of motors last year. I tested 2 HLD inrunners and neither of them had sinusoidal bEMF. What that would look like while running the motor is probably pretty weird looking! A trapezoidal controller makes trapezoids. A cheap sinusoidal controller sort of makes sine waves. A good one such as VESC or Kelly will make nice sinusoids. I have no idea what your controller makes so I won't predict this. There's unknowns here that I can't predict. *** Once you try both motors on the others controllers, watch for where the stuttering issue goes. It might follow the front motor. It might still happen on the rear motor running on the front controller. This is a good indication of where the problem exists. The scope will show the arcing if it exists and at that point a new motor would be the right choice. Right now, I can't recommend that since there too many variables to eliminate first.
@@de-bodgery brilliant! My pack voltage is 66v max my scope can measure up to 100v divisions so i will be very careful. i will conduct these tests and share what I find. Thanks for your time my friend!
@@InvokePerformance Try to record the wave forms. I don't know your Rigol scope and if it can record or not. At least do a video you can post to your channel.
Thank you very much for your detailed video and explanation of the common fails for the Dualtron Storm. I purchased my storm two weeks ago and on my 2nd voyage this past Thursday it overheated and ultimately shut down the scooter and started smoking real bad in the rear . Reported it to them and now waiting to here back on a solution
Thank so much for the video. Very informative. I just got my Dualtron Storm limited scooter last week and I wonder if it's the same controller. Maybe I should call VoroMotors and find out. I will revisit and update the comment section whether or not I find out anything.
They might not know! This controller was new 1 year ago. Who knows if Minimotors has changed them since then or not. Lots of places that sell and repair EV's don't pull things apart to check them out. It's just a part to swap out for a new one when the old one fails. I take things apart becasue I'm curious about their construction so I take stuff apart.
@@de-bodgery I understand. It wouldn't hurt to ask. If they are unaware, then maybe they can pass that info along so they can produce a better product going forward.
@@NorKal530 I think this controller is the same one as is on the Ultra. The regular Storm and the Ultra have nearly identical ratings and they both use that rear kick guard controller placement. I still think they fail becasue they are a marginal design that is simply pushed too hard.
De-bodgery, Thanks for a VERY informative video - You know, it seems like no one has gotten it right yet - No matter how expensive or popular the scooter. I've almost bought a Varla, almost bought an Apollo, now I've almost bought a Dualtron - Holy smokes! Have the need and funds but no good, reliably designed, high quality component equipped, and well built scooter to buy. Any suggestions for a guy like me @ 6'3, ~300lbs needing a longer range, Strong scooter - Totally frustrated!
Dualtron tends to under design and then later fix the weak areas. for example, the city has many places that are held together with M3 screws where they should have used M4 or M4 where they should have used M5. Anyway, they do eventually fix the things that are weak. The City is brand new so it's going to have things that should have been beefed up more. *** Dualtron scooters that I have never taken apart or worked on are these. This is not for lack of quantities of them out there. They just don't seem to break down or have issues. The X2 is somewhat rare, but it's built like a tank. I've ridden one and it's plenty powerful and robust. I'd buy either of these without reservations. Neither have solid rubber tires which is an enormous PITA to change out! You do NOT want a scooter that lacks air filled tires! Dualtron Storm (NOT LTD): minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-storm Dualtron X2: minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-x2
@@de-bodgery Hey De-bodgery, Thanks for the quick reply and I understand the approach you've taken in addressing some of the faults in the scooters. The X is a monster and just too much for my needs but while griping, I came across the Dualtron Thunder 2 and I'm cautiously interested and almost impressed. To learn more, I viewed some videos and no one seemed to have had major negatives to report. To be sure, I visited your posts and videos and didn't see anything negative. BTW, you've got a ton of very good videos that take deep dives into the electronics of the machines - Good Job. Any thoughts / experience with the Thunder 2? I live in a tropical climate where it's in the 80's most of the time so dissipating heat is my biggest concern - thankfully no hills, off-roading or racing automobiles for me - one shattered femur was enough for me. Thanks again for sharing the knowledge. 👍👍
@@mobayguy The Thunder 2 is probably OK. It has pneumatic tires and has been around a good while so the typical weak spots have probably been worked out. The local shop I work for, they have them for sale and I've never worked on one so that's probably a good sign that it's going to be reliable.
@@de-bodgerySounds good. The lack of any major issues is encouraging. On to the test rides and hopefully a satisfied purchase with the Thunder 2. Really appreciate the replies. All the best
About the hall sensors. I work as the lead technician for electric scooters at a workshop reparing electric scooters. And I can also confirm that the controllers in outher dualtron scooters have the pads on the PCB for hall sensors but are not used. We have had costumers that are wondeing why their 4000$ scooter sometimes drives backwards into them when trying to start from a standstill. Dualtron selling scooters with questionable design for lots of money and caling them the dream of electrical technology or something.
Yup...no halls is the reason. The controller can't detect the correct direction of commutation when the motor is stopped without position sensors such as halls. It "finds out" by guessing and attempting to spin the motor in some direction. Once it can detect a little bEMF, it then knows if the direction of spin is backwards or forwards. As a result of this guess, it gets the direction of commutation wrong sometimes and the scooter shifts backwards. With a dual motor scooter, this can be quite pronounced if both controllers guess wrong at the same time. Not having halls is stupid. In my Dualtron City, I had the motors apart anyway and so I added halls and a temp sensor to both motors.
@@de-bodgery Hall's are garbage, more easy for the motor to fail either form water or bumpy road. Motor without hall can resist water damage and hold itself after rough driving and the only downside is that it goes in the wrong direction from standstill i mean like that's fucking insignificant
@@sdfefde Halls or other forms of position sensing are highly useful! Halls are far from "garbage"! It seems you think running sensorless is the best way to go. I think if that was the case that the entire motor industry would have abandoned hall sensors and in fact they have not...or any other form of position sensing for that matter! You in fact state exactly why position sensing has not been abandoned and then ignore it like that's a trivial thing! You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you won't find a lot of people who build motors and controllers that will agree with you...myself included!
@@sdfefde Halls are delicate devices to be sure so you use them within their specs and then they last many thousands of hours. Most any modern gas car or motor cycle has halls on the engine to detect crank and cam positions. Most hybrid of fully electric forms of transportation use halls or some form of hall device for motor position sensing. Billions and billions of motors in all sorts of applications use halls of some kind to detect armature position. This has been the case since the early 1980's! They are used in highly reliable tape back up solutions used in data centers the world over for detecting the tape drive motors. Any form of spinning media devices (CD, DVD, etc) have halls in them for RPM detection. Millions of machines in hobby shops and industrial shops have halls on the various actuator and drive motors for position and RPM detection. This is a VERY reliable technology used in trillions of applications all over the world for the past 50 years! If that's "planned obsolescence" all I can say is I wish more companies products became "obsolete" this way!!! Halls are inexpensive, VERY ubiquitous, reliable and available anywhere!
Do you know if we can install a sinewave controller on the storm? Like at least engineer something? Or do they have something out there where we can install 2 Seperate controllers?
@@cohegaming8069Did you read what I wrote? Here, let me state it again for you. " It's just motor controllers. Use whatever you want." I mean that very literally!
@@de-bodgery I’m so sorry I’m just a bit ignorant with controllers. For example, the storm has a 40amp 72V controller. Can I just use any 72V controller and not worry about that amps? I guess what I’m asking is, do the specs have to be EXACTLY the same?
Do you think that the vibration of the motors when they are in charge can come from the controller? That vibration occurs when you press the accelerator to the maximum, so practically when the controller discharges a high current. As the speed begins to increase and the current in the controller begins to become linear and constant, that vibration disappears. Thanks!
Are you describing some sort of stuttering in the motors? Vibration is mechanical usually. If whatever "vibration" you are describing happens when the motors spin in some RPM range, that's probably wheel or motor balance issues. I don't know what you mean by "in charge". In charge of what? It's difficult to understand what you are describing. I guess it's possible for the front motor to stutter since it has no halls while the rear motor might run fine...or vice versa. Once motor RPM reaches "some level", things might smooth out??? I'm just guessing because I don't understand what you are describing at all.
@@de-bodgery It's a shake in acceleration, it doesn't seem to be mechanical. So let's say it runs at 30km / h constantly, everything is smooth and normal, the moment I accelerate and pull maximum power from the controller, the engines start to stop running linearly. After the current starts to drop, that is, I no longer pull 45A from the controller and pull 30A, the motors start running smoothly again. They attributed this problem to older engines that had one-centimeter shorter magnets. In the meantime, the new engines came to me, I changed them, but that interruption persists for me and the other users. I thought maybe this is because of the controller when it is in high demand. And if I start from an aggressive point of view, that is, I discharge a maximum current from the controller, the motors have a vibration as if the current is unfiltered or as if the controller is choking. After reaching a speed of say 60, 70km / h and the controller no longer has to develop such high power, the inep engines become smooth and without shaking. It is a bit difficult to describe the effect, it is that when you have a spark plug or a bad coil at the heat engine, you accelerate and it starts to shake and can not develop the desired power. I hope I have better described this phenomenon. Thank you very much for your time and answers.
@@ChristianLepah OK...I have some theories. This explanation makes lots of sense to me. In this video, I talked about that set of 330uF filter capacitors and the others are 470uF. It maybe that the filter capacitors in your controller are working poorly. With increased amp draw, the amount of induced noise on the battery busses increases too. This is controlled and leveled out by those filter capacitors. With excessive noise and flutter on the DC power busses, you can see the very behavior you are observing. The newer vs older motors would not be the likely sources for this. Motor redesigns are about better efficiency in the motor or some expensive design element being removed for something less difficult to make. This does sound like poor DC filtering to me. If you are up to it, you can buy new capacitors to replace the ones you have now or get another controller. *** Are you in the USA? Do you still have your original motors?
@@de-bodgery Unfortunately I am from Roamnaia! If I was in the US, I would be sitting on your head all day :)) What values should I buy at the capacitors to replace them?
@@ChristianLepah I have a freind in Romania...Alex. I realize we are talking about an entire country, but then you two might be near each other too. *** Caps...get 6 more 470uf, 100v caps so you can replace all 6 that filter at the mosfets. You will replace the 2 330uf caps with 2 470uF caps that I point out in this video. The value and voltage of the cap isn't the only thing to check. Physical size matters too. You can get very tiny caps in comparison to the 470uF caps in your controller with the same voltage and capacitance. Get ones of similar physical size as are already there. I don't know what brands you might have available there, but Japanese brands are generally good and Chinese brands tend to be less good. Buy from legit electronics suppliers such as Digikey, Mouser or Arrow and not ebay or whatever. It's important that they get installed correctly. Reverse their polarity and electrolytic caps explode! While you have the controller opened up, look at all the electrolytic caps. You want to replace any of them where the flat top of the cap is bulged or split open. Sometimes they will lift off their rubber seal on the bottom...look for that too. Probably you have 1 or 2 caps that are failing. This is a somewhat common thing to have happen. Over the years, I have replaced thousands of electrolytic caps!
X2 might work since that's a pretty powerful scooter like the LTD should be. Honestly, if you are willing to learn, get replacement controllers NOT made by minimotors. VESC is complex and you'll need to work out wiring to make after market controllers work with your LTD, but it's quite doable. I'm doing it right now with my Dualtron City. This is not impossible and the end result is a much better EV!
@@caglayan4883 The X2 charger is 84v at full charge, same for the LTD. Minimotors only have 3 voltages or cell counts for all their EV's. 12S or 49.2v at full charge, 16S or 65.6v at full charge and 20S or 82v at full charge. I guess they do this "other voltage" thing to be cryptic or make one EV seem better than another. All the stuff that is 60v is really 16S and charges to 100% at 65.6v. All the 72v, 84v, etc EV's all charge to 82v and have 20S packs in them.
@@de-bodgery im not talking about charging but battery voltage. 72v scooter at full charge are 84.4v but Storm LTD full charge are 96v so 84v battery vs 72v battery. My question is what happen if I drop 72v X2 controllers on 84v battery of Storm LTD (96v). Does it support it or it will burn ?
@@caglayan4883 Same thing. If the charger output goes to 82v, so does the pack. 82v is full charge and 72v is nominal charge. Again...this is confusing. *** From here, it's seriously confusing! dualtron-shop.com/product/dualtron-storm-limited If I assume that 95.4v is fully charged, then at 23S, that's 4.15v per cell. At 24S, that's 3.98v per cell. 84v is equally confusing! 20S at 84v is 4.2v per cell. 23S at 84v is 3.65v per cell and this is well below the typical nominal cell voltage of 3.7 to 3.8v. 24S at 84v is 3.5v per cell. This is pretty much end of charge for LION packs. None of those really make sense except 20S and over charging the cells slightly. 95.4v doesn't match anything either. 22S puts all the cells at a dangerous 4.34v! 23S is 4.15v per cell. 24S is 3.98v vper cell. Based on the quoted voltages, I can't eliminate any of these cell counts! You are right about the LTD being at a higher voltage. I'm guessing here since 84v is below nominal cell voltage for 24S and I've never looked at an LTD pack before. *** This sales page says 84v and not that other 95.4v. I've always thought the LTD was running on 20S. My assumption is that the 95.4v is a mistake on the web page. minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-storm-ltd-electric-scooter *** I asked the local scooter shop where I do repairs if they knew. LOL...same thing...they were equally confused about those voltages! There is potential reasons for this. Supposedly the LTD has been totally revised. I've never seen one of these "new" LTD's so I can't say anything about that. This might explain the voltage disparities. *** If Mininmotors was putting 100v max controllers on a 95.4v EV, well that would explain the blown controllers! This is waaaaaay too close to the maximum limits of the controller! It would not be hard at all during regen or just motor noise to exceed 100v and blow up mosfets! *** On your charger, it lists an output voltage. What does that say? IF it says 84v, your pack is 20S. Chargers typically list their actual maximum output voltage.
After watching this video, do you think can modify a storm controller so it can work right? Maybe even add the hall sensor wire to the harness for the front wheel?
Adding the halls is the easy part. you'll need to add the connector to the board and run a cable to motor. I assume the motor has halls in it already. As far as improving the controller...that's hard to say. If yours is like the one I took apart in this video, I'd say you would do better getting a couple of VESC 100250 controllers instead!
@@de-bodgery I'm not that keen on doing this sort of a thing. I can take apart the scooter, but setting up controllers is out of my area of expertise. My storm still works, I just want to prevent failures of this controllers shortcomings can be sorted.
Wow this was an interesting video. hope dueltron replace their tech guy with you. wish i knew someone with knowledge like you in New York to help me built my fido.
I have a buddy in NYC...or really in Elmhurst that does EV builds. I've done some work for him, but I don't know how far along his projects have gotten. He has a house and a garage so he's able to do more stuff than what you can do on your kitchen table or living room floor.
@@halobaby48 Let me check with Rio. See if he wants to get involved with other people projects. He's a good guy and will probably say yes. He's also probably going to ask me questions if things get complicated. So I'll PM him and see and then get back to you. Do you use whatsapp? It's how Rio and I usually keep in touch.
Came here because of @V_tha_sapien... Would really love it if you can tear down the new limited controller. Hoping.... Also would love if you got your hands on a Tronic controller in the Rions.
Hi Alex, look up rishimaze on DIY Electric Car. You can PM me there and then depending on what happens after that...well we can do more like whatsapp or whatever.
I've been working on Dualtron scooters only recently. There's several models I have not seen inside or needed to work on them. The Spider is one of them. I don't really have an opinion about this model other than some general design and wiring choices that are common to all Dualtron scooters.
I crashed with my Victor a few weeks ago, Got a new engine and put it on, works fine but after awhile of driving, something turns the scooter off. It keeps doing so but with less speed. Cables are fine. Something else is causing it
does the LCD turn off too? If so, your BMS is possibly shutting down. It's also possible that you have a loose battery wire. The entire scooter is powered through the controller box. Make sure all your battery wires in and out of the controller are tight and fully pushed together. If your connections are all good and the LCD shuts off, your pack is having issues. I have a pack arriving to me tomorrow that needs a new BMS. The pack costs $1000 to replace and I can probably swap out the factory BMS with an after market one that is smart and works with your phone. I'm pretty sure the new BMS will get that pack going again. It does something similar and shuts down at odd times.
You all have defective storm limited scooters. First batch were defective but some dealers sold anyway. I waited and just now getting my Ltd next week with motor upgrade - batch 2. Send it back under warranty
This is a dead controller that was new a year ago. There are multiple versions of the controllers and motors. I don't think sellers knew what was defective. You can't tell from the outside.
You're smarter than the average bear. I haven't seen inside these newer controllers but that thing is weak at best. I'm guessing the tapered heat spreader is directional? ... LAME!
Just bought a storm limited £4300 fml i need your help i want to make sure this doesn't happen to mine i have a soldering iron and heat gun i plan to have a electronics lab this year the whole microscope, oscilloscope, lab power bench supply
OK...what sort of help did you want? Fix the various issues I mention in this video and that ought to go a long way. Of course, you could always pull the factory controller once it dies and use something else?
@@de-bodgery well im going to defenitly try if it doesn't hit 70mph i will contact minimotors straight away if they don't try and help sort it i will send it straight back
@@thebeast9869 That's your choice of course. My experience has been that performance ratings are always too ideal. My City is supposed to do 45 mph and even down a decent hill l never saw that. If I remember right, best top speed I saw was 38 mph. The motor power carrying a full sized adult, just can't accelerate me to that speed. Going up a hill was much worse...20 mph was about all I could get. So ask yourself what size rider was on the scooter when they got that magical "45 mph"? It may be that no rider was on it at all and they were simply measuring no load wheel RPM. It's not lying persay, but it's also not realistic. Range is this way too. My City can supposedly can get 55 miles range. OK...26Ah/55 miles = .45Ah per mile. If a small child was riding on the lowest power setting with no head wind, you could achieve .45Ah/mile! Otherwise...this is just stupid for anyone else! Never the less, it's what they advertise and it's based on real testing. AKA...not an outright lie, just NOT even close to realistic for most people. Cells are never as good in real world use as the manufacturer claims. A 3400mah cell can't be used to it's full 3400mah in real world conditions. They charge them to 4.2v and discharge to 2.5v. Anyone that cares about LION packs never charges to 4.2v or discharges to 2.5v. This is for 3 reasons. Capacity above 4.1v is negligibly low. Capacity below 3v is negligibly low. Running cells at these voltage ranges greatly shortens their life spans. Realistically a 3400mah 18650 is really more like 3100mah if you assume practical and usable cell voltages. My City pack which uses those ideal numbers from the manufacturer AKA 26Ah is really several Amp/hours less! As you draw current more quickly from a cell it's capacity also drops a little. I quickly found that the only tolerable way I'd ride the City was on max power all the time. Those capacity tests from the battery factory are done at 250mA. No one runs an 18650 at .25 amps in an EV! I don't know my actual amp draw, but I can say it was well over .25 amps per cell. The entire battery industry does this! What it does is makes for rather ideal cell capacities. The typical user doesn't know any of this and lacks the ability to test capacities so they are none the wiser. As you are probably aware, most EV's draw quite a bit of current and much more than .25 amps per cell...which means the capacity delivered per cell is also reduced some. My 26Ah pack is realistically something like 20ah between reasonable charge voltages and current loading. No one lied persay, but the pack capacity in real world use vs ideal circumstances can't possibly match up! *** So again...your choice...but I'm going to tell you that you'll rarely ever see real world specs on EV's! They are almost always idealistic and therefore unrealistic in real world applications.
@@thebeast9869 I'm not sure what "small changes" might be to you. At a minimum, you'll want to replace the controllers with ones that are FOC...such as something VESC based. This will mean some rewiring, replacing the EY3 throttle, possibly replacing the pack if it can't deliver the current, etc. "Changes" may be smaller or larger depending on what is needed to meet your goals. *** 60 to 70 mph is only 10 mph, but the wind resistance is significantly higher at 70 than at 60. You can expect to need a fair bit more wattage to get to 70 than you did to get to 60! I can say that you won't get there on the factory controllers with full conviction! The pack might be able to deliver the current needed, but I don't know that as fact. 82v is enough to get to 80 mph, but the current draw is pretty significant. *** Anyway, you can see my City build and what I'm doing to make it meet my goals. That might be a lot of changes or just a few to you...can't speak to that!
My man...!!!! Thanks allot for this video!! Because I'm Greek 🇬🇷 and can't explain so good in English the problems with limited (event more with dualtrons)... I just say that has big issues and DO NOT buy it!!!!❌
That's pretty much my opinion too. Or maybe, "Buy it with the expectation that the factory motor controllers have a long history of dying for no good reason." People who own the LTD are eventually going to need to replace their factory controllers with something else when Minimotors decides to no longer make controllers for them. Frankly, if I had one, that's what I'd do. I wouldn't get another Minimotors controller for an LTD. you already know they will self destruct in less than a year. Why do that again?
@@de-bodgery changing Controllers can do guys like you and me.... The most people that buy this scooter, don't know Anything about electronics... Press throttle and go..!!! Of course they believe that they have the top scooter of dualtron (and most expensive, exept X)... from the FIRST day they see that has top speed issue ...... And in 3--5 months burn controller...😲 Left battery and frame.... They have spent so much money and in a few months the 50% of the scoot has DIED!!!! Where is DUALTRON.....????🤬 WHY they don't take the responsibility and take back the most problematic scooter (and EXPENSIVE) they ever take out and STOP production!!! You know why they don't do it....?? Because from so many Limited they have been sold, only 2 TALK ( V.THE.SEPIA and STEFFEN)... 🤷 So yes they are the No1 company that sells GARBAGE for GOLD and people are there to PREORDER what ever they sell..... NUMO company (upgrade WEPED, and other scoots) relish a new scooter named SLACK CORE 920R.. This is a top class scooter from All things (power, stability, comfort, weight, beauty).....THE FUTHER!!!😉☝️
@@antonypartali Good point...most people lack the electronics understanding to replace the controllers with another factory controller, never mind something off the shelf like VESC and what needs to be adapted or modified to make it all work together. *** Dualtron frames and motors are fine. I don't that creaking issue in the lower section of the steering tube, but that can be dealt with. The physical construction is usually fine for anything I've seen. *** I did a tire replacement on one a few months ago. I forget what model, but the tires were solid. Both tires were badly worn and needed to be replaced. They were impossible to remove by pressing them off the magnet ring. I used my band saw and cut them off! Getting the new tires on was equally hard and eventually I sprayed the inner surface of the tires with WD40 so they slide on easier. Dualtron had no idea how to do a tire change and for anyone that needed tires was selling them new motors!!! Well that's just nuts! That was the hardest tire change I've ever done and there was no way we'd ever recoup our cost in labor. what do you do? Charge people $500 for a tire change on their scooter? LOL! I can pretty much guarantee you that a very small handful of people would go the effort I went to! *** The Storm LTD is a decently made scooter with a single enormous flaw...shit controllers that die if you look at them crosswise. All Dualtrons I have ever seen have a complete rats nest of wiring in them that makes no sense why they were done that way. All of the wiring could have been done much more neatly and sanely. When building these scooters, serviceability was not a consideration. Getting the factory controller out of my City took 4 hours! It was buried under all the rest of the wiring and that was such a mess that in the end I was cutting off connectors since they were so badly tangled together and impossible to separate from each other. IF I needed to replace the controller for warranty, I would have wanted to preserve those connectors so they could be reused as is. Dualtron concerned themselves absolutely NOT ONE bit for when things go wrong and how to fix them. *** I was working on a Feutecher from Dualtron yesterday. My friend had already asked them how to remove the battery. No one at Dualtron had ever done this and the best they could do was theorize that you needed to take off the beck end of the scooter to slide it out. The back end suspension is a PITA to get in and out of the main box section of the scooter! This was bad idea on a good day! I looked at how things were assembled and figured out how to pull it out the front of the box. We sent pics to Dualtron and they were amazed! HOW??? LOL! How do they NOT KNOW how to take their own scooters apart??? In this case the BMS in the pack died and the best option was to get a new pack. *** There's much worse stuff out there than Minimotors! Not that this makes them "great"...just better than some really really bad EV's I've worked on! For the price, you should be getting attention to detail and careful planning of wiring and electronics placement. Hopefully they are reading these comments and taking a look at what they are doing.
@@de-bodgery you CRAZY the guys from Dualtron....😁😁👏👏 Of course there are allot of scooters worst than dualtron, ok... But the price of them ir OVERPRICED!!!! Did you ever upgrade a scoot with minimotors electronics (motors have online 3 phase wires)....😤?? Or to talk about suspension.... This is NOT suspension.... It's ”silicone" with metal..... Anyway... I support every word you say!!! 💯 Everything and everyone has their place.... Dualtron is allot higher than must be...🤷 I already write to your channel!!! You have big knowledge on electronics, e- scooters and pass it to us FOR FREE!!!!🤩😉 Thanks allot, waiting for your new videos!!!🙏
@@antonypartali I'm not sure I like or dislike the rubber box suspension that most Dualtron scooters have. My City has it too. It's OK and lots better than no suspension or just springs. It does provide actual damping. As the rate of rotation on the hunk of rubber increases, the resistance to rotation goes up. That's quite similar to real hydraulic shocks. You can't adjust the level of damping and all you really have is 3 stiffness levels of rubber blocks, but it's still lots better than other options. Dualtron has started to move away from the rubber block suspension for their higher end scooters and to use actual hydraulic or compressed air shocks instead. *** I'm in process of upgrading my City right now in fact. It has less than 40 miles on it. Enough for me to find it's foibles and what I don't like and then I tore it all apart! I have 2 VESC controllers that will replace the factory controller. You should check out my recent videos. I've covered a lot of the upgrades I am doing to my City in them. I added halls and temp sensors to both of the City hub motors so they can run optimally. I also machined venting slots in their side covers for cooling. All those videos have been posted in just the last couple of months. Until I made this LTD controller video, everything in the past 2 months I have done is all stuff pushing for improvements on my City. LOL...19 videos! Geez! I had no idea and there are more to come! *** Most everything electric is over priced. It wasn't so long ago that it was way worse. A very basic low power scooter cost you $1800 or more. Now you can buy them on Amazon, Ebay or whatever for less than $800. Volume production has helped this some. Electrified things are still massively inflated. A mountain bike might cost you $600. Add a crappy 500w hub motor and a small lithium battery and now you can't buy the bike for less than $2000! There is probably $400 in parts on the bike to electrify it! EV's are better than they used to be, but still the prices for them is not relative to the value of the EV or its manufacturing cost. EUCs are terrible about this! Most are the WORST quality construction you can find and yet you pay $3000 for maybe $300 worth of hardware! I've had 2. If you look back in my videos you'll find my tear down of my Gotway MTEN3. What a POS! *** As I have ideas for content (because I'm doing something that makes for decent content), I'll post more. I don't really plan what I'll make a video about. I don't do click bate and I don't give a shit if people like my content or not. I post what I want to post and if that's helpful to people, well great. There is literally ZERO profit motive in it for me.
This is a dualtron controller with different connectors on it. I've already taken apart the same controller from Dualtron. Not worth sending to me. Are you hoping I'd do a tear down on it like I did for the LTD controller?
@@de-bodgery yes just like the Dualtron controller, love to know your insights on it's design too, for 60v 27a it's tiny. lol if my Vsett 10 controller ever fails I'll send it right to you.
@@thehardnesschannel1605 Geez! That's a VERY short life! The Minimotors.Dualtron controllers that look just like what you have don't usually fail that quickly. Look up Rishimaze on DIY electric car. That's me over there. I don't post personal information in public places like TY! You could send me your controller and I can take a look at it...see why it failed or if it really is the same controller inside as what Dualtron has.
@@de-bodgery yeah atleast its gonna go under warranty bought the thing this years april. Probably gonna sell it and go through a major search on what is the best power scooter that lasts and is water resistant and such
lol great they think that the condensation that they found in the deck of my scooter is the culprit and they wont put it under warranty... morons think that the connection between the controller and battery got some water and thats why it burned up allthough the wires and everything is completely good and not burnt xD@@de-bodgery
@@de-bodgery ive scrolled the comments and you mentioned changing the controller to a vesc 100/250 is that much work to get it running on that or what?
Thank you so much for this video!!! this is very informative. I've been speculating from the begenning that it's a controller issue. I can only hope the newer versions are upgraded when I get mine back. I'm going to inform my viewers of your video. Thanks for this info!
You are welcome. I did not get to look at the new controller that replaced this one. They are sealed inside the shell and I would have had to break open the silicon to get a look at it. I have no idea if the new version is better or the same steaming turd as this one is from a year ago. We can only hope!
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Thanks for sending people my way.
@@de-bodgery hey bro absolutely!!! I believe in helping others and spreading the info, especially when someone is knowledgeable in a specific area. That's interesting about the new versions. I just knew something had to be wrong with the controller. It's good to have you around!!! I keep it real. Gotta tell the good and bad. People need to know what's really going on!!!!
@@v_tha_sapien5742 That's my policy too. If I know something, I might as well make it known to anybody else it might be useful too! I'm not looking for adulation or praise. I honestly don't care to have my ego stroked and prefer that people don't bother me with that sort of thing. I want to stick to observations, tests and actual examples if possible. AKA...keep it real!
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The new controller that just walked out of my friends shop yesterday, I am curious if it will be dead in another year or less. I'm skeptical of its longevity. A few nifty throttle curves won't fix the reliability issues!
My dualtron didn't even come with a Heatsink so I'm expecting a burnt out controller soon.
@@ZxZx-bf7iz maybe...the heat sink didn't do dick for them anyway! Turn down the power so the controller can last.
I watched V_Tha_Sapien video talking about your discovery of the Dualtron Storm Limited controller because my limited controller burned out just the same as his. I had to ship my limited back to VoroMotors to get it fixed/repaired thankfully it was covered under warranty. I only had it but maybe 4 months and my controller failed. I’m glad there is someone like you that has taken the time to look into the issue first hand and actually find and share your results. I only hope that your video finds its way to the eyes of the Dualtron designers and manufacturers so they can see the errors they made and hopefully make the corrections that you have pointed out in your video. You got my sub. Thanks so much and Keep Smiling
GEEZ! 4 months! I think that's the second fastest Storm LTD controller failure I know of. My pal with the scooter shop, he was letting someone test ride a Storm and it blew up right there in the parking lot with like 10 miles on it. Either way, these controllers ought to survive many years of use without issues. 4 months is just pathetic!
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I made this video knowing the problem existed, but never had an LTD controller to look at before. I can't show or do anything if I don't have something to analyze...so I waited until one came in with a blown controller. It was inevitable...LOL! I went looking into the controller purely out of curiosity. The stupid high failure rates really had my attention! I wanted to see why they die as much as anyone and I don't even own an LTD! Frankly, if I did, I'd be pulling the controller out ASAP and replace it with something much better such as a VESC 100250.
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I own a Dualtron City. It's not very powerful from the factory. Probably the controllers will never die, but that's becasue they are hardly ticking over! Tepid, boring, slow are good descriptions for its performance from Dualtron. However, soon it will be doing much better and then I bet it will out perform the LTD. It's getting VESC controllers among other things.
BTW...thanks for the positive comments. Minimotors knows of me. I got their attention with the hook throttle delete mod video I did. I'm sure someone there will see this video soon enough. My friend just came back from Minimotors in California with 75 scooters (No LTD's!). They saw my video on the throttles and asked him if he knew how to get one. Well of course he did since I do a lot of scooter work for him! He took one of my throttles with him to leave in their possession when he picked up the 75 scooters. IMHO...the mod is pretty self explanatory and all right there in the video. I thought it was interesting that they wanted to see my work first hand. So yeah...Minimotors knows I exist. I'm sure they won't like my disparaging comments, but oh well. How about NOT making steaming turds that blow up all the time?!
@@de-bodgery I’m curious, if Dualtron gets enough complaints about the controllers failing, if they might put out a recall on them. It’s pretty unfortunate that they chose to cut corners in a few areas just to save a buck. In the long run, their poor choices will most likely cost them more than if they would have done it right the first time. All this negative attention can’t be good for their brand. I hope you do get a call back from MiniMotors snd possibly hire you. Because Lord knows, they could use your knowledge and expertise in their current and future products. With you under their belt, I’m sure they may even save some money. Time will tell. I’m rooting for you. Thanks so much and Keep Smiling
@@steffenhawkins1323
Laughs hilariously to himself...
These aren't cars or baby toys. I seriously doubt you could litigate a class action law suit and force a recall! Agreed, cutting corners just comes back to bite you in the ass. The LTD has a bad reputation to be sure! Also, nothing I have seen so far from Dualtron really inspires me with high levels of confidence. The wiring inside them is atrocious. They do seem to have decently well made frames and components, but the electrical systems seem to be laid out and designed by a 5 year old across all their EV's. Since all I've really seen so far is lots of Dualtrons, I can't really say if that is true with other scooter makers. Doesn't matter IMHO...shouldn't be done!
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It didn't work out that I could go with my friend to Minimotors to pick up the 75 scooters he bought. I did want to go. If they offered me a job, I would have potentially considered it. I don't know if that would have worked out. Probably would have been better to just consult with them. Let me destroy a single unit of each of your scooters in an attempt to discover all the bad or poorly done aspects. Document what is found, let you fix them and then I do another tear down. Any new models you are working on for the near future, let me tear it apart, see what I find and we fix them before they ever see sales. It would potentially be worth while for Minimotors to have someone like me do that for them.
@@de-bodgery I agree with you 100%. I don’t know much about other Dualtrons since this Limited is my very first branded electric scooter. Before purchasing this Dualtron, I had purchased two electric scooters from Alibaba during the first year of the pandemic from a company called TVictor aka RealMax that you can sorta custom design them. However, I was not at all educated in what to shop for when it came to purchasing my first scooter. I didn’t know anything about the battery, the voltage, amp hours, speed, the controllers, the stem wobbles, any of the maintenance, I got into the this scooter fad completely blind as to what to look or shop for. . Within the past year is when I really dove deep and became obsessed with the electric scooters and finally after countless hours researching and watching reviews on RUclips on electric scooters in when I realized that there were more reliable and better scooters available than the ones from Alibaba. That’s when I came across an ad showcasing the Dualtron Storm Limited and its impressive specs. Spent the money on on pre-ordering it, finally relieved it, ridden it, and boy, what a difference between the scooters from Alibaba and a more well known company Dualtron. And I didn’t about the difference in a SineWave and a SquareWave controller. I’m still learning as I go along. I’ve only been a electric scooter fanboy for barely 2 years.
UPS just dropped off my new scooter the Kaabo Wolf King GT Pro about 30Min ago. So, I’m going to go make a unboxing video. I honestly think and believe that you are very skilled in your knowledge of electronics. It’s experienced people like yourself that should be designing these scooters instead of the current people they have right now that looks like they are going off a crayon drawing. Anyways, thanks so much and Keep Smiling
Expert overview my friend!! keep these teardowns coming the people need it!!! including myself lol!! I soon need to trouble shoot a controller/motor issue with my Dualtron thunder. is seems that the front motor is exhibiting a intermittent motor Phase short. with random pulsing resistance while under power and during free spinning.
I dislike stator shorts where they only occur under load. Clearly there is arcing from a winding to the stator, but no actual physical contact. You cant measure it with a DMM! Do you own or have access to an oscilloscope? This is what is needed to detect an arcing stator short. You spin the motor with the ground lead on the motor shaft and the scope lead on any 1 phase. Look for short duration spikes. Otherwise you should see more or less sinusoidal wave forms. Since this assumes arcing to the stator and this isn't the actual ground plane for the motor and controller, you probably won't see clean sine waves. If you see no spikes, put the test lead on another phase wire. The spikes should be pretty obvious every time a bit of current jumps the gap from the winding to the stator. It's also possible you have a controller failure. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think you have halls in the front motor on the Thunder...so that is probably not it.
@@de-bodgery Thank you for the great troubleshooting advice I have access to a nice rigol scope at my job. I will sope each phase. So can I ground them probe to the axel nut? Also the front motor does not have a hall connector to the controller. So just to confirm if I have nice sine wave from each phase then I could switch the motor controllers to see if the issue goes to the rear motor. If I see any phase spikes on the motor then would you suggest I buy a new motor?
@@InvokePerformance I'd try both grounding to the axel and to batt- and see which one works out best. Since this is potentially arcing to the stator, the axel nut ought to show the arcing best. I haven't tried this specific test myself since I lacked a motor that was arcing internally. I looked at the phases as they ran and for that, the logical ground location is BATT-.
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Don't blow up your o-scope. What's your pack voltage? Whats the maximum voltage of the o-scope? Whatever your pack voltage is, add 20% to that to account for anomolies. Back EMF can have some strong pulses and that ought to cover this. Your scope needs to have 20% or more extra voltage range capability than the pack voltage. More is better.
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No halls in front...yes...what I thought. I beleive the rear controller will still run even without halls. You can test that by disconnecting the hall cable only and trying to run the motor. The front controller can run the rear motor. See if you get that stuttering issue running the rear motor on the front controller. If you don't, the front controller is OK and that leads us to front motor issues. You can run just 1 motor at a time. Simply unplug the phase wires. The mosfets will see no load and nothing will happen to the disconnected controller.
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I don't know that you will get a sine wave or not. IF the controllers are sinusoidal and the bEMF from the motor is sinusoidal, then you will get sinusoidal wave forms on the scope. If you look through my channel, I did some bEMF tests on a bunch of motors last year. I tested 2 HLD inrunners and neither of them had sinusoidal bEMF. What that would look like while running the motor is probably pretty weird looking! A trapezoidal controller makes trapezoids. A cheap sinusoidal controller sort of makes sine waves. A good one such as VESC or Kelly will make nice sinusoids. I have no idea what your controller makes so I won't predict this. There's unknowns here that I can't predict.
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Once you try both motors on the others controllers, watch for where the stuttering issue goes. It might follow the front motor. It might still happen on the rear motor running on the front controller. This is a good indication of where the problem exists. The scope will show the arcing if it exists and at that point a new motor would be the right choice. Right now, I can't recommend that since there too many variables to eliminate first.
@@de-bodgery brilliant! My pack voltage is 66v max my scope can measure up to 100v divisions so i will be very careful. i will conduct these tests and share what I find. Thanks for your time my friend!
@@InvokePerformance Try to record the wave forms. I don't know your Rigol scope and if it can record or not. At least do a video you can post to your channel.
Thank you very much for your detailed video and explanation of the common fails for the Dualtron Storm. I purchased my storm two weeks ago and on my 2nd voyage this past Thursday it overheated and ultimately shut down the scooter and started smoking real bad in the rear . Reported it to them and now waiting to here back on a solution
How did it work out for you?
Love this Debodgery.
Thank so much for the video. Very informative. I just got my Dualtron Storm limited scooter last week and I wonder if it's the same controller. Maybe I should call VoroMotors and find out. I will revisit and update the comment section whether or not I find out anything.
They might not know! This controller was new 1 year ago. Who knows if Minimotors has changed them since then or not. Lots of places that sell and repair EV's don't pull things apart to check them out. It's just a part to swap out for a new one when the old one fails. I take things apart becasue I'm curious about their construction so I take stuff apart.
@@de-bodgery I understand. It wouldn't hurt to ask. If they are unaware, then maybe they can pass that info along so they can produce a better product going forward.
@@NorKal530 Minimotors is subbed to my channel. I assume they watch my videos.
@@NorKal530 I think this controller is the same one as is on the Ultra. The regular Storm and the Ultra have nearly identical ratings and they both use that rear kick guard controller placement. I still think they fail becasue they are a marginal design that is simply pushed too hard.
What makes these sound soo good and loud compared to other scooters. The vsett 11+ makes a nice whine sound when you accelerate too.
I’ve never heard of a kaabo controller failing. I honestly would never buy anything but a kaabo.
I took the plastic rear fender off my ultra 2
De-bodgery, Thanks for a VERY informative video - You know, it seems like no one has gotten it right yet - No matter how expensive or popular the scooter. I've almost bought a Varla, almost bought an Apollo, now I've almost bought a Dualtron - Holy smokes! Have the need and funds but no good, reliably designed, high quality component equipped, and well built scooter to buy. Any suggestions for a guy like me @ 6'3, ~300lbs needing a longer range, Strong scooter - Totally frustrated!
Dualtron tends to under design and then later fix the weak areas. for example, the city has many places that are held together with M3 screws where they should have used M4 or M4 where they should have used M5. Anyway, they do eventually fix the things that are weak. The City is brand new so it's going to have things that should have been beefed up more.
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Dualtron scooters that I have never taken apart or worked on are these. This is not for lack of quantities of them out there. They just don't seem to break down or have issues. The X2 is somewhat rare, but it's built like a tank. I've ridden one and it's plenty powerful and robust. I'd buy either of these without reservations. Neither have solid rubber tires which is an enormous PITA to change out! You do NOT want a scooter that lacks air filled tires!
Dualtron Storm (NOT LTD): minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-storm
Dualtron X2: minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-x2
@@de-bodgery Hey De-bodgery, Thanks for the quick reply and I understand the approach you've taken in addressing some of the faults in the scooters. The X is a monster and just too much for my needs but while griping, I came across the Dualtron Thunder 2 and I'm cautiously interested and almost impressed. To learn more, I viewed some videos and no one seemed to have had major negatives to report. To be sure, I visited your posts and videos and didn't see anything negative. BTW, you've got a ton of very good videos that take deep dives into the electronics of the machines - Good Job. Any thoughts / experience with the Thunder 2? I live in a tropical climate where it's in the 80's most of the time so dissipating heat is my biggest concern - thankfully no hills, off-roading or racing automobiles for me - one shattered femur was enough for me. Thanks again for sharing the knowledge. 👍👍
@@mobayguy The Thunder 2 is probably OK. It has pneumatic tires and has been around a good while so the typical weak spots have probably been worked out. The local shop I work for, they have them for sale and I've never worked on one so that's probably a good sign that it's going to be reliable.
@@de-bodgerySounds good. The lack of any major issues is encouraging. On to the test rides and hopefully a satisfied purchase with the Thunder 2. Really appreciate the replies. All the best
@@mobayguy Hopefully the fact that I've never worked on one is a good sign! Good luck and you are welcome!
Bonjour ya vraiment une différence de puissance si je shunt avec de l'étain sur les pond
About the hall sensors. I work as the lead technician for electric scooters at a workshop reparing electric scooters. And I can also confirm that the controllers in outher dualtron scooters have the pads on the PCB for hall sensors but are not used. We have had costumers that are wondeing why their 4000$ scooter sometimes drives backwards into them when trying to start from a standstill.
Dualtron selling scooters with questionable design for lots of money and caling them the dream of electrical technology or something.
Yup...no halls is the reason. The controller can't detect the correct direction of commutation when the motor is stopped without position sensors such as halls. It "finds out" by guessing and attempting to spin the motor in some direction. Once it can detect a little bEMF, it then knows if the direction of spin is backwards or forwards. As a result of this guess, it gets the direction of commutation wrong sometimes and the scooter shifts backwards. With a dual motor scooter, this can be quite pronounced if both controllers guess wrong at the same time. Not having halls is stupid. In my Dualtron City, I had the motors apart anyway and so I added halls and a temp sensor to both motors.
@@de-bodgery Hall's are garbage, more easy for the motor to fail either form water or bumpy road. Motor without hall can resist water damage and hold itself after rough driving and the only downside is that it goes in the wrong direction from standstill i mean like that's fucking insignificant
@@sdfefde Halls or other forms of position sensing are highly useful! Halls are far from "garbage"! It seems you think running sensorless is the best way to go. I think if that was the case that the entire motor industry would have abandoned hall sensors and in fact they have not...or any other form of position sensing for that matter! You in fact state exactly why position sensing has not been abandoned and then ignore it like that's a trivial thing! You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you won't find a lot of people who build motors and controllers that will agree with you...myself included!
@@de-bodgery Well halls have some upsides but they are a potential liabillity. It could be argued it's planned obsolescence
@@sdfefde Halls are delicate devices to be sure so you use them within their specs and then they last many thousands of hours. Most any modern gas car or motor cycle has halls on the engine to detect crank and cam positions. Most hybrid of fully electric forms of transportation use halls or some form of hall device for motor position sensing. Billions and billions of motors in all sorts of applications use halls of some kind to detect armature position. This has been the case since the early 1980's! They are used in highly reliable tape back up solutions used in data centers the world over for detecting the tape drive motors. Any form of spinning media devices (CD, DVD, etc) have halls in them for RPM detection. Millions of machines in hobby shops and industrial shops have halls on the various actuator and drive motors for position and RPM detection. This is a VERY reliable technology used in trillions of applications all over the world for the past 50 years! If that's "planned obsolescence" all I can say is I wish more companies products became "obsolete" this way!!! Halls are inexpensive, VERY ubiquitous, reliable and available anywhere!
So, based on your expertise knowledge which is the scooter with the best controller? Thank u
No idea! There are far too many options out there I have never seen.
Do you know if we can install a sinewave controller on the storm? Like at least engineer something? Or do they have something out there where we can install 2 Seperate controllers?
Yes to all of the above. It's jsut motor controllers. Use whatever you want.
@@de-bodgery appreciate the response man. Do you know any controllers out there that would work on the storm? Of your knowledge ?
@@cohegaming8069Did you read what I wrote? Here, let me state it again for you. " It's just motor controllers. Use whatever you want." I mean that very literally!
@@de-bodgery I’m so sorry I’m just a bit ignorant with controllers. For example, the storm has a 40amp 72V controller. Can I just use any 72V controller and not worry about that amps? I guess what I’m asking is, do the specs have to be EXACTLY the same?
Do you think that the vibration of the motors when they are in charge can come from the controller? That vibration occurs when you press the accelerator to the maximum, so practically when the controller discharges a high current. As the speed begins to increase and the current in the controller begins to become linear and constant, that vibration disappears. Thanks!
Are you describing some sort of stuttering in the motors? Vibration is mechanical usually. If whatever "vibration" you are describing happens when the motors spin in some RPM range, that's probably wheel or motor balance issues. I don't know what you mean by "in charge". In charge of what? It's difficult to understand what you are describing. I guess it's possible for the front motor to stutter since it has no halls while the rear motor might run fine...or vice versa. Once motor RPM reaches "some level", things might smooth out??? I'm just guessing because I don't understand what you are describing at all.
@@de-bodgery It's a shake in acceleration, it doesn't seem to be mechanical. So let's say it runs at 30km / h constantly, everything is smooth and normal, the moment I accelerate and pull maximum power from the controller, the engines start to stop running linearly. After the current starts to drop, that is, I no longer pull 45A from the controller and pull 30A, the motors start running smoothly again. They attributed this problem to older engines that had one-centimeter shorter magnets. In the meantime, the new engines came to me, I changed them, but that interruption persists for me and the other users. I thought maybe this is because of the controller when it is in high demand. And if I start from an aggressive point of view, that is, I discharge a maximum current from the controller, the motors have a vibration as if the current is unfiltered or as if the controller is choking. After reaching a speed of say 60, 70km / h and the controller no longer has to develop such high power, the inep engines become smooth and without shaking. It is a bit difficult to describe the effect, it is that when you have a spark plug or a bad coil at the heat engine, you accelerate and it starts to shake and can not develop the desired power. I hope I have better described this phenomenon. Thank you very much for your time and answers.
@@ChristianLepah OK...I have some theories. This explanation makes lots of sense to me. In this video, I talked about that set of 330uF filter capacitors and the others are 470uF. It maybe that the filter capacitors in your controller are working poorly. With increased amp draw, the amount of induced noise on the battery busses increases too. This is controlled and leveled out by those filter capacitors. With excessive noise and flutter on the DC power busses, you can see the very behavior you are observing. The newer vs older motors would not be the likely sources for this. Motor redesigns are about better efficiency in the motor or some expensive design element being removed for something less difficult to make. This does sound like poor DC filtering to me. If you are up to it, you can buy new capacitors to replace the ones you have now or get another controller.
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Are you in the USA? Do you still have your original motors?
@@de-bodgery Unfortunately I am from Roamnaia! If I was in the US, I would be sitting on your head all day :)) What values should I buy at the capacitors to replace them?
@@ChristianLepah I have a freind in Romania...Alex. I realize we are talking about an entire country, but then you two might be near each other too.
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Caps...get 6 more 470uf, 100v caps so you can replace all 6 that filter at the mosfets. You will replace the 2 330uf caps with 2 470uF caps that I point out in this video. The value and voltage of the cap isn't the only thing to check. Physical size matters too. You can get very tiny caps in comparison to the 470uF caps in your controller with the same voltage and capacitance. Get ones of similar physical size as are already there. I don't know what brands you might have available there, but Japanese brands are generally good and Chinese brands tend to be less good. Buy from legit electronics suppliers such as Digikey, Mouser or Arrow and not ebay or whatever. It's important that they get installed correctly. Reverse their polarity and electrolytic caps explode! While you have the controller opened up, look at all the electrolytic caps. You want to replace any of them where the flat top of the cap is bulged or split open. Sometimes they will lift off their rubber seal on the bottom...look for that too. Probably you have 1 or 2 caps that are failing. This is a somewhat common thing to have happen. Over the years, I have replaced thousands of electrolytic caps!
Thank you for the video! Do you think is possible to use Thunder 2 or X2 controllers with Storm LTD battery ?
X2 might work since that's a pretty powerful scooter like the LTD should be. Honestly, if you are willing to learn, get replacement controllers NOT made by minimotors. VESC is complex and you'll need to work out wiring to make after market controllers work with your LTD, but it's quite doable. I'm doing it right now with my Dualtron City. This is not impossible and the end result is a much better EV!
@@de-bodgery I understand for vesc. X2 controllers are made for 72v battery but LTD are 84v. No risk of damage the controllers with different voltage?
@@caglayan4883 The X2 charger is 84v at full charge, same for the LTD. Minimotors only have 3 voltages or cell counts for all their EV's. 12S or 49.2v at full charge, 16S or 65.6v at full charge and 20S or 82v at full charge. I guess they do this "other voltage" thing to be cryptic or make one EV seem better than another. All the stuff that is 60v is really 16S and charges to 100% at 65.6v. All the 72v, 84v, etc EV's all charge to 82v and have 20S packs in them.
@@de-bodgery im not talking about charging but battery voltage. 72v scooter at full charge are 84.4v but Storm LTD full charge are 96v so 84v battery vs 72v battery.
My question is what happen if I drop 72v X2 controllers on 84v battery of Storm LTD (96v). Does it support it or it will burn ?
@@caglayan4883 Same thing. If the charger output goes to 82v, so does the pack. 82v is full charge and 72v is nominal charge. Again...this is confusing.
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From here, it's seriously confusing!
dualtron-shop.com/product/dualtron-storm-limited
If I assume that 95.4v is fully charged, then at 23S, that's 4.15v per cell. At 24S, that's 3.98v per cell. 84v is equally confusing! 20S at 84v is 4.2v per cell. 23S at 84v is 3.65v per cell and this is well below the typical nominal cell voltage of 3.7 to 3.8v. 24S at 84v is 3.5v per cell. This is pretty much end of charge for LION packs. None of those really make sense except 20S and over charging the cells slightly. 95.4v doesn't match anything either. 22S puts all the cells at a dangerous 4.34v! 23S is 4.15v per cell. 24S is 3.98v vper cell. Based on the quoted voltages, I can't eliminate any of these cell counts! You are right about the LTD being at a higher voltage. I'm guessing here since 84v is below nominal cell voltage for 24S and I've never looked at an LTD pack before.
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This sales page says 84v and not that other 95.4v. I've always thought the LTD was running on 20S. My assumption is that the 95.4v is a mistake on the web page.
minimotorsusa.com/products/dualtron-storm-ltd-electric-scooter
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I asked the local scooter shop where I do repairs if they knew. LOL...same thing...they were equally confused about those voltages! There is potential reasons for this. Supposedly the LTD has been totally revised. I've never seen one of these "new" LTD's so I can't say anything about that. This might explain the voltage disparities.
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If Mininmotors was putting 100v max controllers on a 95.4v EV, well that would explain the blown controllers! This is waaaaaay too close to the maximum limits of the controller! It would not be hard at all during regen or just motor noise to exceed 100v and blow up mosfets!
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On your charger, it lists an output voltage. What does that say? IF it says 84v, your pack is 20S. Chargers typically list their actual maximum output voltage.
After watching this video, do you think can modify a storm controller so it can work right? Maybe even add the hall sensor wire to the harness for the front wheel?
Adding the halls is the easy part. you'll need to add the connector to the board and run a cable to motor. I assume the motor has halls in it already. As far as improving the controller...that's hard to say. If yours is like the one I took apart in this video, I'd say you would do better getting a couple of VESC 100250 controllers instead!
@@de-bodgery I'm not that keen on doing this sort of a thing. I can take apart the scooter, but setting up controllers is out of my area of expertise. My storm still works, I just want to prevent failures of this controllers shortcomings can be sorted.
@@DrWonderEyes Well...in this video I do mention a bunch of short comings. You could try fixing them and see what happens.
Motor does have hall had to change my bearing
@@ZxZx-bf7iz yup...rear motor has halls, but not the front motor.
Wow this was an interesting video. hope dueltron replace their tech guy with you. wish i knew someone with knowledge like you in New York to help me built my fido.
I have a buddy in NYC...or really in Elmhurst that does EV builds. I've done some work for him, but I don't know how far along his projects have gotten. He has a house and a garage so he's able to do more stuff than what you can do on your kitchen table or living room floor.
@@de-bodgery is there a way i can contact him?
@@halobaby48 Let me check with Rio. See if he wants to get involved with other people projects. He's a good guy and will probably say yes. He's also probably going to ask me questions if things get complicated. So I'll PM him and see and then get back to you. Do you use whatsapp? It's how Rio and I usually keep in touch.
@@halobaby48 I PM'd him and told him your youtube channel. If he wants to respond to you, he'll post in your channel most likley.
Came here because of @V_tha_sapien... Would really love it if you can tear down the new limited controller. Hoping.... Also would love if you got your hands on a Tronic controller in the Rions.
Get me a controller and I'll take it apart.
Do you do any type of remote consults for Dualtron Storms? Would love to speak directly!
Hi Alex, look up rishimaze on DIY Electric Car. You can PM me there and then depending on what happens after that...well we can do more like whatsapp or whatever.
Wow adept. Have come across dualtron spider 2 issues? I’m about to buy one.
I've been working on Dualtron scooters only recently. There's several models I have not seen inside or needed to work on them. The Spider is one of them. I don't really have an opinion about this model other than some general design and wiring choices that are common to all Dualtron scooters.
I crashed with my Victor a few weeks ago, Got a new engine and put it on, works fine but after awhile of driving, something turns the scooter off. It keeps doing so but with less speed. Cables are fine. Something else is causing it
does the LCD turn off too? If so, your BMS is possibly shutting down. It's also possible that you have a loose battery wire. The entire scooter is powered through the controller box. Make sure all your battery wires in and out of the controller are tight and fully pushed together. If your connections are all good and the LCD shuts off, your pack is having issues. I have a pack arriving to me tomorrow that needs a new BMS. The pack costs $1000 to replace and I can probably swap out the factory BMS with an after market one that is smart and works with your phone. I'm pretty sure the new BMS will get that pack going again. It does something similar and shuts down at odd times.
Great!
Bonjour comment faire pour désactiver le dual motor en modifiant
you want to run from jsut one motor? Why would you do that?
@@de-bodgery pour pouvoir le mettre de temps en temps quand la batterie est faible
@@eaujavel7662 Ride slower then you don't have to do anything
@@de-bodgery et pour faire des wheeling mais la roue avant tourne en même temps c'est pas agréable
@@eaujavel7662 Uhhh...lean forward?
You all have defective storm limited scooters. First batch were defective but some dealers sold anyway. I waited and just now getting my Ltd next week with motor upgrade - batch 2. Send it back under warranty
This is a dead controller that was new a year ago. There are multiple versions of the controllers and motors. I don't think sellers knew what was defective. You can't tell from the outside.
You're smarter than the average bear. I haven't seen inside these newer controllers but that thing is weak at best. I'm guessing the tapered heat spreader is directional? ... LAME!
Yes, the case is sloped internally. They tapered the heat spreader to fit into the space.
✔️
Hi, your video is very interesting. Can you tell me the voltage and capacity of the capacitor attached to the controller in
And will it have a good effect on the output if I increase the capacitor capacity?
Watch the video...it's all in there.
@@de-bodgery I don't have the ability to translate the video in detail. But I can translate the writing.
@@SLACK_CORE Gotcha...470uf, 100v caps.
@@de-bodgery Thank you. One more question. What are the advantages of increasing the capacitor capacity?
it seems like its cheap design ,components and pcb used.
Just bought a storm limited £4300 fml i need your help i want to make sure this doesn't happen to mine i have a soldering iron and heat gun i plan to have a electronics lab this year the whole microscope, oscilloscope, lab power bench supply
OK...what sort of help did you want? Fix the various issues I mention in this video and that ought to go a long way. Of course, you could always pull the factory controller once it dies and use something else?
@@de-bodgery well im going to defenitly try if it doesn't hit 70mph i will contact minimotors straight away if they don't try and help sort it i will send it straight back
@@thebeast9869 That's your choice of course. My experience has been that performance ratings are always too ideal. My City is supposed to do 45 mph and even down a decent hill l never saw that. If I remember right, best top speed I saw was 38 mph. The motor power carrying a full sized adult, just can't accelerate me to that speed. Going up a hill was much worse...20 mph was about all I could get. So ask yourself what size rider was on the scooter when they got that magical "45 mph"? It may be that no rider was on it at all and they were simply measuring no load wheel RPM. It's not lying persay, but it's also not realistic. Range is this way too. My City can supposedly can get 55 miles range. OK...26Ah/55 miles = .45Ah per mile. If a small child was riding on the lowest power setting with no head wind, you could achieve .45Ah/mile! Otherwise...this is just stupid for anyone else! Never the less, it's what they advertise and it's based on real testing. AKA...not an outright lie, just NOT even close to realistic for most people. Cells are never as good in real world use as the manufacturer claims. A 3400mah cell can't be used to it's full 3400mah in real world conditions. They charge them to 4.2v and discharge to 2.5v. Anyone that cares about LION packs never charges to 4.2v or discharges to 2.5v. This is for 3 reasons. Capacity above 4.1v is negligibly low. Capacity below 3v is negligibly low. Running cells at these voltage ranges greatly shortens their life spans. Realistically a 3400mah 18650 is really more like 3100mah if you assume practical and usable cell voltages. My City pack which uses those ideal numbers from the manufacturer AKA 26Ah is really several Amp/hours less! As you draw current more quickly from a cell it's capacity also drops a little. I quickly found that the only tolerable way I'd ride the City was on max power all the time. Those capacity tests from the battery factory are done at 250mA. No one runs an 18650 at .25 amps in an EV! I don't know my actual amp draw, but I can say it was well over .25 amps per cell. The entire battery industry does this! What it does is makes for rather ideal cell capacities. The typical user doesn't know any of this and lacks the ability to test capacities so they are none the wiser. As you are probably aware, most EV's draw quite a bit of current and much more than .25 amps per cell...which means the capacity delivered per cell is also reduced some. My 26Ah pack is realistically something like 20ah between reasonable charge voltages and current loading. No one lied persay, but the pack capacity in real world use vs ideal circumstances can't possibly match up!
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So again...your choice...but I'm going to tell you that you'll rarely ever see real world specs on EV's! They are almost always idealistic and therefore unrealistic in real world applications.
@@de-bodgery dualtron storm and the victor seem to do 50 if this limited does over 60mph im sure with small changes i can get 70mph +
@@thebeast9869 I'm not sure what "small changes" might be to you. At a minimum, you'll want to replace the controllers with ones that are FOC...such as something VESC based. This will mean some rewiring, replacing the EY3 throttle, possibly replacing the pack if it can't deliver the current, etc. "Changes" may be smaller or larger depending on what is needed to meet your goals.
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60 to 70 mph is only 10 mph, but the wind resistance is significantly higher at 70 than at 60. You can expect to need a fair bit more wattage to get to 70 than you did to get to 60! I can say that you won't get there on the factory controllers with full conviction! The pack might be able to deliver the current needed, but I don't know that as fact. 82v is enough to get to 80 mph, but the current draw is pretty significant.
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Anyway, you can see my City build and what I'm doing to make it meet my goals. That might be a lot of changes or just a few to you...can't speak to that!
My man...!!!!
Thanks allot for this video!!
Because I'm Greek 🇬🇷 and can't explain so good in English the problems with limited (event more with dualtrons)...
I just say that has big issues and DO NOT buy it!!!!❌
That's pretty much my opinion too. Or maybe, "Buy it with the expectation that the factory motor controllers have a long history of dying for no good reason." People who own the LTD are eventually going to need to replace their factory controllers with something else when Minimotors decides to no longer make controllers for them. Frankly, if I had one, that's what I'd do. I wouldn't get another Minimotors controller for an LTD. you already know they will self destruct in less than a year. Why do that again?
@@de-bodgery changing Controllers can do guys like you and me....
The most people that buy this scooter, don't know Anything about electronics... Press throttle and go..!!!
Of course they believe that they have the top scooter of dualtron (and most expensive, exept X)...
from the FIRST day they see that has top speed issue ......
And in 3--5 months burn controller...😲
Left battery and frame....
They have spent so much money and in a few months the 50% of the scoot has DIED!!!!
Where is DUALTRON.....????🤬
WHY they don't take the responsibility and take back the most problematic scooter (and EXPENSIVE) they ever take out and STOP production!!!
You know why they don't do it....?? Because from so many Limited they have been sold, only 2 TALK ( V.THE.SEPIA and STEFFEN)... 🤷
So yes they are the No1 company that sells GARBAGE for GOLD and people are there to PREORDER what ever they sell.....
NUMO company (upgrade WEPED, and other scoots) relish a new scooter named SLACK CORE 920R..
This is a top class scooter from All things (power, stability, comfort, weight, beauty).....THE FUTHER!!!😉☝️
@@antonypartali Good point...most people lack the electronics understanding to replace the controllers with another factory controller, never mind something off the shelf like VESC and what needs to be adapted or modified to make it all work together.
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Dualtron frames and motors are fine. I don't that creaking issue in the lower section of the steering tube, but that can be dealt with. The physical construction is usually fine for anything I've seen.
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I did a tire replacement on one a few months ago. I forget what model, but the tires were solid. Both tires were badly worn and needed to be replaced. They were impossible to remove by pressing them off the magnet ring. I used my band saw and cut them off! Getting the new tires on was equally hard and eventually I sprayed the inner surface of the tires with WD40 so they slide on easier. Dualtron had no idea how to do a tire change and for anyone that needed tires was selling them new motors!!! Well that's just nuts! That was the hardest tire change I've ever done and there was no way we'd ever recoup our cost in labor. what do you do? Charge people $500 for a tire change on their scooter? LOL! I can pretty much guarantee you that a very small handful of people would go the effort I went to!
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The Storm LTD is a decently made scooter with a single enormous flaw...shit controllers that die if you look at them crosswise. All Dualtrons I have ever seen have a complete rats nest of wiring in them that makes no sense why they were done that way. All of the wiring could have been done much more neatly and sanely. When building these scooters, serviceability was not a consideration. Getting the factory controller out of my City took 4 hours! It was buried under all the rest of the wiring and that was such a mess that in the end I was cutting off connectors since they were so badly tangled together and impossible to separate from each other. IF I needed to replace the controller for warranty, I would have wanted to preserve those connectors so they could be reused as is. Dualtron concerned themselves absolutely NOT ONE bit for when things go wrong and how to fix them.
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I was working on a Feutecher from Dualtron yesterday. My friend had already asked them how to remove the battery. No one at Dualtron had ever done this and the best they could do was theorize that you needed to take off the beck end of the scooter to slide it out. The back end suspension is a PITA to get in and out of the main box section of the scooter! This was bad idea on a good day! I looked at how things were assembled and figured out how to pull it out the front of the box. We sent pics to Dualtron and they were amazed! HOW??? LOL! How do they NOT KNOW how to take their own scooters apart??? In this case the BMS in the pack died and the best option was to get a new pack.
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There's much worse stuff out there than Minimotors! Not that this makes them "great"...just better than some really really bad EV's I've worked on! For the price, you should be getting attention to detail and careful planning of wiring and electronics placement. Hopefully they are reading these comments and taking a look at what they are doing.
@@de-bodgery you CRAZY the guys from Dualtron....😁😁👏👏
Of course there are allot of scooters worst than dualtron, ok...
But the price of them ir OVERPRICED!!!!
Did you ever upgrade a scoot with minimotors electronics (motors have online 3 phase wires)....😤??
Or to talk about suspension.... This is NOT suspension.... It's ”silicone" with metal.....
Anyway... I support every word you say!!! 💯
Everything and everyone has their place....
Dualtron is allot higher than must be...🤷
I already write to your channel!!!
You have big knowledge on electronics, e- scooters and pass it to us FOR FREE!!!!🤩😉
Thanks allot, waiting for your new videos!!!🙏
@@antonypartali I'm not sure I like or dislike the rubber box suspension that most Dualtron scooters have. My City has it too. It's OK and lots better than no suspension or just springs. It does provide actual damping. As the rate of rotation on the hunk of rubber increases, the resistance to rotation goes up. That's quite similar to real hydraulic shocks. You can't adjust the level of damping and all you really have is 3 stiffness levels of rubber blocks, but it's still lots better than other options. Dualtron has started to move away from the rubber block suspension for their higher end scooters and to use actual hydraulic or compressed air shocks instead.
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I'm in process of upgrading my City right now in fact. It has less than 40 miles on it. Enough for me to find it's foibles and what I don't like and then I tore it all apart! I have 2 VESC controllers that will replace the factory controller. You should check out my recent videos. I've covered a lot of the upgrades I am doing to my City in them. I added halls and temp sensors to both of the City hub motors so they can run optimally. I also machined venting slots in their side covers for cooling. All those videos have been posted in just the last couple of months. Until I made this LTD controller video, everything in the past 2 months I have done is all stuff pushing for improvements on my City. LOL...19 videos! Geez! I had no idea and there are more to come!
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Most everything electric is over priced. It wasn't so long ago that it was way worse. A very basic low power scooter cost you $1800 or more. Now you can buy them on Amazon, Ebay or whatever for less than $800. Volume production has helped this some. Electrified things are still massively inflated. A mountain bike might cost you $600. Add a crappy 500w hub motor and a small lithium battery and now you can't buy the bike for less than $2000! There is probably $400 in parts on the bike to electrify it! EV's are better than they used to be, but still the prices for them is not relative to the value of the EV or its manufacturing cost. EUCs are terrible about this! Most are the WORST quality construction you can find and yet you pay $3000 for maybe $300 worth of hardware! I've had 2. If you look back in my videos you'll find my tear down of my Gotway MTEN3. What a POS!
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As I have ideas for content (because I'm doing something that makes for decent content), I'll post more. I don't really plan what I'll make a video about. I don't do click bate and I don't give a shit if people like my content or not. I post what I want to post and if that's helpful to people, well great. There is literally ZERO profit motive in it for me.
I can send you a burnt up Kaabo Mantis pro controller. Just let me know
This is a dualtron controller with different connectors on it. I've already taken apart the same controller from Dualtron. Not worth sending to me. Are you hoping I'd do a tear down on it like I did for the LTD controller?
@@de-bodgery yeah, it's alot packed into a small controller, it failed and i'd like to know why. kinda like a autopsy. failed at 110 miles.
@@de-bodgery yes just like the Dualtron controller, love to know your insights on it's design too, for 60v 27a it's tiny. lol if my Vsett 10 controller ever fails I'll send it right to you.
@@thehardnesschannel1605 Geez! That's a VERY short life! The Minimotors.Dualtron controllers that look just like what you have don't usually fail that quickly. Look up Rishimaze on DIY electric car. That's me over there. I don't post personal information in public places like TY! You could send me your controller and I can take a look at it...see why it failed or if it really is the same controller inside as what Dualtron has.
@@de-bodgery ok, they won’t let me send private messages, my account name is exoc1
Great!!! Just fucking blew the controller on mine… and the fucker costs 400€ 😢
yup...well maybe you know why they are junk now.
@@de-bodgery yeah atleast its gonna go under warranty bought the thing this years april. Probably gonna sell it and go through a major search on what is the best power scooter that lasts and is water resistant and such
lol great they think that the condensation that they found in the deck of my scooter is the culprit and they wont put it under warranty... morons think that the connection between the controller and battery got some water and thats why it burned up allthough the wires and everything is completely good and not burnt xD@@de-bodgery
@@tusdomestic7448 That's very shitty! These controllers are known to burn out!
@@de-bodgery ive scrolled the comments and you mentioned changing the controller to a vesc 100/250 is that much work to get it running on that or what?
You got instagram will send pics when i recieve mine
Post a video
@@de-bodgery i will do when i get it i will full throttle and video it with my gopro
Have any improvements been made? I want this scooter because of its insane range but I'm afraid of these issues I keep reading about 😨