The so called 'intros' are part of what makes your channel so enjoyable, and are always completely relevant to the content of the video. It's like listening to a mate chatting about the stuff we love!
How is this comment from 3 days ago when the video says it was uploaded an hour ago .... Tf 0_o. (edit, it's a Patreon thing that I was unaware of lol)
I recently had this EXACT issue on a Sony SACD changer (Sony SCD-CE595). It would read CDs and normal SACD discs, but the hybrid disks would ONLY read as normal CD. I did a lot of research and it looked like I just had a bad laser or something...until I found a post in one particular forum. It outlined a procedure in the service manual called the "U-con Procedure". It was basically a series of actions (voodoo) that fixed the problem permanently (mine has worked over a year with no issues whatsoever). Here is what I had to do: 1. Turn the machine off, with no disc inside. 2. Press "enter" and "menu" simultaneously. While holding them down, turn on the power. The display reads "diag mode" 3. Press the open button to open the tray. Insert a hybrid disc and press the button again to close the tray. 4. Rotate the "enter" knob clockwise until "B0" appears in the display. You have to go a pretty far distance to get there, keep turning. 5. Push the "enter" knob. The display will read "FFFF" 6. Rotate the "enter" knob clockwise again until "B1" appears. 7. Press "enter" The display will count down some negative numbers until a 4 character string appears. It's a hexadecimal number. 8. Rotate "enter" clockwise again until "B2" appears. Press "enter". The same 4 character number will appear again. It should be, numerically, between 04D0 and 08D0. If you are not familiar with hex numbers, don't worry, since there is nothing you can do about it anyway. 9. Press the open button and unload the disc. Press the button again to close the tray. IMPORTANT: turn the power off. You are now out of diagnostic mode and you are calibrated. Good luck!
This was my exact thought. No problem with the laser, the problem was with the focusing mechanism. It could focus on the main disc layer, but couldn't focus on the inner layer, probably due to wear and tear or slight component degradation. The recalibration helps to correct for these problems. Hope your machine serves you faithfully for many more years.
@@firewalker1372 At least when it is like how Techmoan does it (unlike someone like..let's say The Spiffing Brit, who does some pretty funny videos, but is a prime example of how not to do longer-the-better with all the needless padding and recurring segments that get boring after 3 videos and then you realize the joke is in ALL videos anyway, so it is padding rather than a joke.)
I vote for all intros, all the time. Just intros nothing else. Of course what”those people” call intros, are why most of us come here. Keep doing exactly what you’ve been doing mate!
Its how I feel when people ask me "Why do you buy old computers from the 90s?"...because I like them and the experience of nostalgia.....but they still look puzzled!
@Taco sorry to burst the bubble but nah, it's better than DVD-Audio at lower than ~15 kHz sounds, but that "betterness" is irrelevant as well, as the dynamic range goes way past the 144 db of DVD Audio, meaning you're just further into the deafness threshold. Both surpass human's hearing by a heck lot. Also above those frequencies it's actually worse. At ~20 kHz (so near the CD upper limit) you're at about 120 db dynamic range, or worse than DVD-Audio (CD is 96 db). Storing ultrasonic frequencies do no good to your sound anyway, they don't make the lower frequencies better, just storing a bit more than any human can hear (say, store up to ~30 kHz) is all you need, mathematically, no "but I can feel" stuff. The audiophile world is full of those myths and snake oils. SACD does have a factual advantage in audio quality, and so do DVD Audio but sound is just math and physics at the end of the day, and not even too complex ones at that to store, reproduce, measure and calculate the advantages. "more analog like", the 80's stair-step myth and such are all just BS.
@Taco Yes, and that is entirely independent of the medium or encoding. You'll hear subjectively better quality music even on bog standard CD with a good recording, as 96 db is just OK-ish on paper, but nothing to be ashamed of either. A less compressed mix on SACD/DVD-Audio is the majority of their sound advantage in Stereo mode.
Obviously, the people making these comments are not regular viewers of your channel. Your loyal viewers are here for all the quirky fun and the journey is just as if not more important than the destination
“Because I want an SACD player… so that one’s checked off.” LMAO… the perfect answer. Never stop being you, Mat. We love you. Don’t let the trolls get you down.
in the words of Adam Savage (I might be paraphrasing a little), "You can learn more from someone's failures than you ever could from their successes" this video is a perfect example of that, and I am glad you uploaded it because a lot of content creators are too afraid to upload their failed attempts. This was a genuinely fascinating watch.
There was a Donut Media Money Pit episode where they rebuilt the power steering rack on their Miata. When they put it back in, it promptly blew up all over the driveway. Their reaction was defeat, basically said "yep, that's how this goes sometimes." I think videos like that are really important because it shows that not every project is a success and that's normal. It's easy to feel inadequate when everybody you're seeing online is only showing success. It's nice to see the failures, it's helpful for the viewers and the creators.
For what it's worth, this type of content is one of the main reasons I watch your videos. You are one of the most informative channels on RUclips for technical repair/ trouble shooting this kind of stuff.
Which is useful to learn, even if what you're troubleshooting isn't an SACD player. I find the same thing watching Adam Ragusea's cooking videos; he narrates enough to help you out on completely unrelated stuff.
Just wanted to reassure you that I am among the "whole story" crowd. I really like your style, and I love videos like these. Failing technology deserves a repair attempt, and the story is worth telling whether it worked or not. Thank you :)
i've been repairing audio for thirty plus years. swapping a laser over is never just as simple as swapping it. you need to check the RF level and adjust/alighn or the laser won't focus and or read the TOC. I think you touched on not just twiddling things. this never ends well even if it does for a short period start to work. Happy to help if you have the tools, happy to repair FOC to help the channel.
Lots of folks out there who do shoddy repairs. I always roll my eyes at those who think they can adjust a DAT machine's tape path "by ear" or by just using a scope, adjusting the RF wave form without entering the proper test mode. Well, there's repair and then, there's repair 🤷🏼♂️
Reminds me a CD player I repaired some years ago that was randomly skipping. Could be all kinds of stuff, but at the end of the day, it occurred to me to try to lubricate the mechanism before messing with any pots there. Lo and behold, it stopped skipping entirely. Guess the laser carriage was getting a bit stuck and jumping around when it had to do bigger moves than the focus lens could.
Hello, I am an audio equipment service technician with 40 years experience. I discovered many years ago that laser replacements are very difficult and often fail. Since complete replacement mechanisms are no longer available and after a number of laser replacement attempts I stopped doing it because many times it would not work even though I have a laser power meter and can set up the 'eye pattern' on the oscilloscope. I enjoy your channel, thank you.
As a fan of your channel who has watched your hour plus mini disc videos multiple times I say keep the longer videos coming. I honestly get a little bummed when I see you post a shorter one.
I'm going to start using that for everything that I want. Well, I already do, but now I can show my wife that I have a verifiable, reliable source for my argument.
Not gonna lie, quite often I don’t even pay attention to what exactly the video is going to be about - if it’s another Techmoan upload I’ll watch it anyway. Your storytelling and production quality are so good and you’re an awesome fella to listen to. I’m just here for it, keep it up!
SACD players seem to be really finicky. I bought a Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD player a while back that also plays SACD and I needed to enter a service menu and use both a CD and SACD disc to align the laser. Otherwise, it would only play the CD portion of a hybrid disc. Seems this is very common. I always enjoy following your repair attempts, even when not successful. This is just how the cookie crumbles some times. Thanks for keeping us entertained, no matter the end result 👍
It must be a generational thing because this might be one of my favorite videos you have done. It had everything, drama and humor. It was both educational and inspirational. Cheers! 👍
I wouldn't give up, Mat! Sometimes with Sony stuff, you have to go into the SERVICE menu and adjust settings, especially when changing entire CD mechanisms! I needed to do this for one of those CMT micro systems you recommended. The laser wouldn't read discs. I went into the service menu (using the service manual AND remote!) and performed laser tracking adjustments. It's complicated, but once I programmed the defaults in and applied them, on a power cycle (power off, unplug, replug, power on) it worked! The diode must have no calibration from factory, the system thinks the old one is still in as they can adapt to old diodes, to accommodate wear-out. Congratulations on trying so hard! I love fixing stuff, because everything is a new experience! Pick yourself up, dust off, and try again. Don't be disheartened, it's the learning process! Find a service manual and have a good read. I love repair life
My microwave wouldn't start anymore, so I took a chance that it might just be the touch panel, and ordered a replacement. I put on my best techmoan voice and 20 minutes later, my microwave was working again 👍 The microwave is about 7 years old and I'm hoping to get many more years out of it, instead of adding to all the e-waste.
@Frédéric dj no, every time he cooks a frozen dinner, if it comes out too hot he says, "FLIPPIN HECK!" And when its done he has to say, "well that's it for the moment. As always thanks for heating."
I've got a Cisco 3750 switch that work were getting rid of and I decided to take it home. Powered it up, all the lights come on and nothing happens. I could junk the whole thing, or I can get on Ebay where you can get a new power board for not a lot...
Great story, Mat - cheers for sharing! The laser protective cover part reminds me of a screen repair I did on a Nintendo DS. Was I peeling away a protective film on the screen? No, I was not - I peeled off the resistive touch screen layer. Time to buy another.
Oof. Reminds me of when my brother wrecked a game case by pulling on the plastic holding the cover art in after the protective shrink wrap was already removed.
Many of us have been there. Probably the worse mass case of this was the layer on the galaxy fold phones that really did just like a shipping-scuff protection layer. Great way to ruin a $2000+ phone...
The first thing I do when you post a new video is look at the run time. When it's over 20 minutes, I get excited because I know there's likely a good story behind whatever it is you are showing that week. It's my Saturday tradition to get up, make a cup of coffee and settle in for a Techmoan repair adventure. Keep doing the awesome work you do!
I'm ashamed to admit that I laughed out loud when the machine read "no disc." Only because I've been there before - I can identify with spending a good deal of money trying to repair something only to have it end up slightly worse than when I started. Anyway, great video.
It's when you take a photo of the disc, inside the player, on you phone and then wave it at the machine screaming "Yes there *expletive* is, look.. look... LOOK you stupid *more expletives* thing!" that you know it's time to step away...
"Wasting both my time and yours with the tale of a faulty SACD player and a botched rescue mission." I really couldbn't disagree more. I truly see this as most informative and educational. It's always handy to know any pitfalls. I salute you, sir for not hiding this.
Thank you for telling this story. You have my full sympathy and, as they say, "I feel seen". I'm currently grappling with a high-end cassette deck which has mechanical problems. Each time I take it apart and think I've properly fixed it, it turns out to have stayed the same or got worse. I even, out of desperation wanting to transcribe some cassettes, bought another machine but that doesn't work properly either! It's a long road to getting things working properly.
Please don’t change the format of your videos. Your videos are top-notch, I always get excited when I see a new video come out. I absolutely love the content and the format of your videos. You’re one of my favourite RUclipsrs!
You can't win them all. Some things are just not meant to be mended. What we did learn was that lasers of fussy little things. That in a way is a happy ending!
Yeah Hi. I had the same issue as you. I found details online as to re-calibrating the laser in the service mode to hybrid SACDs. That was an easy exercise and it worked a treat. Let me know if you want more details.
I done the same thing with one of mine. Had the same problem where it wouldn't read the SACD layer. Luckily mine was a DVD/SACD/CD player so there was an on-screen service menu but I know that other models can be recalibrated by reading values from points on the board. Hate to say it but there's a good chance it would have fixed the problem without needing to spend all that money on new lasers.
When replacing a laser, you need to adjust BIAS and GAIN to make it work (target voltages should be part of the datasheet). I did that many times when replacing the lasers of PlayStation 1 consoles. It won't just work - if it does, it's just a coincidence.
Exactly this. Plus I'm convinced many "laser failures" are just components that have changed characteristics enough through age for the original calibration to not be correct anymore and recalibrating it can save it.
@Zockblatt Shickleblender So is this why CD-R and -RW playback was such a hit-and-miss thing for a while? Pre-determined gain settings and lower reflectivity?
Boy can I relate to this “repair”! Though both expensive and frustrating- not to mention self-beating- I found this video so refreshing that we are all human, we all make mistakes and if mature enough, we can laugh in hindsight. Indeed I did whilst watching you struggle. Thank you so much for making me feel “normal” through my attempted “repairs “.
Maybe it was off camera, but for proper grounding procedure you should be sure to have a connection to Earth in the wall socket to actually disperse the excess charge, just connecting a mat to your strap won't give you hardly any protection. Enjoyed the video thanks!
@@Techmoan Thank you for the clarification, I wasn't sure so I figured I would mention it just in case. I would also like to say even though the closest thing I have to hifi is a pair of AirPods Pro, I have always been entertained and simultaneously learned a LOT about vintage electronics and A/V formats from your channel. I am young enough that I haven't experienced most of it in person, making it all quite novel to me. It's never something I would have sought out on my own, but I am very glad that you have shared your knowledge and talents with us. Keep up the great work!
I am a lifelong tinkerer and really enjoy your videos. No explanation needed on why you do the vids you do or the production values. There is a grounded ethic in attempting to revive a faulty machine. When successful it is a great feeling of accomplishment and it keeps the item out of the waste stream, at least for a while longer. Hope you keep exploring esoteric tech and digging into it and figuring how it works and making it work if it doesn’t.
There are those channels out there where they always manage a repair and a happy ending. Most viewers however understand that life isn't really like that.
Allright, 40 seconds into the video and I had to pause ⏸️ it to comment. Sir the longer and more winded your videos the better!!! I could listen to you to talk about paint drying on the 🧱 wall. For the record (no pun intended) your Hi Fi videos are my favorite.
Literally my favorite start to the weekend is hearing Mat kick off another video. Thank you sir from the US for all of the hours of brilliant content. And by the way love your intros and storytelling. It is one of the best elements of the channel.
Please Mat don't change the format of your videos in any way, I love your narration and enjoy the full story of whatever it is you are covering. Also, showing the occasional failure makes the videos feel genuine, we all bugger things up now and again. I prefer the RUclips channels where the creators show their stuff ups over the ones where everything always turns out perfect. Love to see a video covering that SACD player you've just acquired. Cheers, Alan.
It is precisely why I follow your channel, because of the "introduction" you make of the product, I also like to see that you can repair/disassemble to review a problem, not everything can always be fixed, but the experience of having tried is what matter, greetings from Lima Peru.
I love the story “intro”. These are not just about the products, but putting yourself into the lives of people that seen these items come out and how they interacted with the products.
I have a friend who had a Marantz SA8260 SACD player and he experienced exactly the same issues that you have. He found that replacement laser assemblies were becoming increasingly unreliable so in the end he bought a modern Marantz player that was being heavily discounted and he's highly delighted with it.
@@johnhamilton2923 My friend ended up buying a Marantz KI Ruby, which was being sold heavily discounted and he felt he just couldn't pass that by. However, he has told me recently that he bought a two-CD set (not SACD) of a work and one of the discs wouldn't play through it, but he managed to get a replacement and that was fine. A bit of a mystery. Maybe there was a TOC problem with that disc.
Please, never stop telling the Story around the main Event. I know most main topics, but the Stories about them are the real fine gems ot the composition - that´s why i am here! Great work again, by the way. Thanks for sharing!
I love this kind of detailed video on the repair effort, regardless of the outcome. Credit to you for being open about your mistakes - we're all human and mess up all the time. Takes real character to share that with a million subscribers!
Honestly, part of the reason your channel is so wonderful is that you give so much context and information. Your "long- winded intros" are very much part of the point of watching your videos. Plus, I don't understand why so many random audience members think they know better than the people making the content they watch. Lol.
Well if you still have the original laser, put it back in, then at least it can still do something. I've replaced the laser unit of numerous Playstation 2 consoles. Even brand new, 1 out of every 4 replacement lasers don't work right out of the box.
I have always enjoyed your approach to telling a story. The way you take the time to explain things both a seasoned techie and a novice can enjoy your content. Keep doing what your a doing bud ! I have enjoyed every video you've done and appreciate the time and effort you put in. Thx !
I'm definitely of the side that you should take all the time you want to explain what you're doing, I don't want a 30sec montage of whatever you're doing
I feel like If you’re just looking for the problem, the fix, and the result this isn’t the channel for you. Techmoan wouldn’t be techmoan without stories winding around every which way.
As someone who worked as an A/V Technician from the 80's untill the early 2000's I can only say, "Well done. That was a really good try at a repair that rarely works out". P.S. I love your videos. Your channel was one of my first subscriptions.
He did not follow the procedure : Test CD, service manual, put the machine in service mode (buttons or special remote), set up the read mode, adjust level/tilt/... and SAVE the value (if not you can set everything at 0000).
Failure is not a waste of time, if something valuable is learned. It takes great courage to share one's defeats, so that others may learn from them. Bravo!
Hi, interesting video, I know that problem, 🤔,,there's an simple fix,put the sacd hybrid in the player,DON'T press play and with the remote control select track 1,,,it then plays all 7 of my Peter Gabriel hybrid sacds,,,,good luck 👍
My takeaway is, it's always good to know your own limitations. There's nothing wrong with challenging those limitations from time to time, and sometimes that works out okay and sometimes it doesn't. The best part here is, although it wasn't cheap by any means, some people pay considerably more to find out their own limitations. In my opinion, I'd say money well spent!
Your videos are never a waste of time, mate. I feel your pain. I'll try repair almost anything, but occasionally I am defeated after too much time invested.
It depends on what item is of interest. There's nothing wrong with your intros and talking about the history of items. I've learnt a lot about format wars etc... sometimes I will sit here for half hour or more because something grabs my attention, other times I'm happy with a 10 minute video... its just what tickles your fancy. Don't stop doing what you do though, you know what to talk about in length and what to keep to a short clip. I admire your work, am envious of all the vintage audio equipment you've got lol 😆 and love your videos... if its about something I'm not interested in then I just wait for the next one. I dont get why people have to constantly moan its pathetic. Anyway thanks for entertaining us tech geeks and teaching us, you're like the cool school teacher for us tech heads 😊
Usually replacing a laser you need to use an oscilloscope to setup the replacement laser. As they are all different your unit will be adjusted for the original laser, there is a good chance this will work again if it is adjusted correctly with a scope. It's more than just a laser power adjustment, there are focus and tracking adjustments too. That mat you are using is anything but a grounding mat. They are designed for high temperatures for hot air rework. These are actually counter intuitive for anti ESD purposes as they create static. Next time you lift it off the desk put the back of your hand under it as you lift it and feel the static. Great video by the way, interesting as always. Although I'm not a diabetic, I do suffer with hypoglycaemia however and I find sometimes I push through some repairs in the workshop and get somewhat lightheaded and "Hangry" which is never a good combination during a repair.
I would have assumed that plastic shield was a shipping lock too, surprised they didn't put a sticky tag on it saying "don't snap this off!" I bet a fair number of techs made the same mistake repairing these back in the day when they changed the rev of the laser subassembly.
I watch you because you tell the story behind the devices you feature. I like learning the history of the devices you pick apart as well as the inner workings.
please don't be too hard on yourself. No matter my state of mind, I always try to step away from a problem if I feel stuck. Breaking the laser, extremely relatable for me. Love your content, and thank you for including your fumbles as well as victories.
0:48 Yes for us old people this is called a Prologue. The bit of the story that explains what the main story is going to be about. Prologues are important if you want to fully invest in the journey that is the piece of tech in question and the specific piece that is on display now. Rambling is great, shows enthusiasm, and that you are not just drying reading from a script. For those who don't like it then don't watch it and skip it, and let those who do enjoy it. Today's youth forget you can fast forward or skip things in videos longer than a minute.
Finally someone showing their failures. I do repairs, sometimes you spend 10-15 hours on some darn machine but you never get it working again. It's hard to cope with it sometimes, but it helps for me to see you cope with it.
I’m looking forward to seeing a video on SACD as I don’t know a huge amount about the format. I was never into higher quality audio at the time the format was released and was more into portability, so was more interested in Minidisc.
You keep doing it the way you have. It's the best part of all your videos, you do your research and knowledgeable and you are doing what you love. And the best part of all your videos is the journey where it takes you.
Well, you know that old saying - you cant please all the people all the time Matt. I for one (of many) enjoy your videos, even when things dont go to plan, thats just life in general. Hopefully any income from the video & merch will offset the outlay on the replacement lasers, & even though I did a B-Tec in electronics back in the 80's you are braver than me dismantling many of these items.
Would be interesting for you to take a peek inside the full sized SACD player and seeing if it has the same mechanism as the failed narrow one. Love the episode, never too long :)
Yeah, I'd wonder about the release date of the machine vs. hybrid SACDs. Much like how early CD players struggled with burnt CDs or ones with hidden tracks, but ultimately got sorted later on, I wonder if this is an early SACD player before hybrid discs.
@@quintessenceSL my 2001 SCD-770QS has no problems whatsoever with dual-layer Hybrid SACDs. Remember: those Hybrid SACDs were part of the SACD spec from the get-go.
Don't change the format because some people are too entitled to click further in the video. I've always liked the format and it's transparency. Keep it up! Been watching for years.
Hey there, might be late but here's my experience replacing my laser assembly on a PlayStation (the original model). In that case every console was calibrated to the cd unit, meaning the 3 potentiometers on the board had to be fine tuned to feed the amount of power that unit specifically wanted. This basically paired each unit to their console due to manufacturing tolerances back then. The service manual listed what each pot did and the ranges you could try to fine tune a new laser assembly. I think it's worth a try!
As always Matt a great show and I always admire your frankness when addressing your audience. With that said, my father suffered for so long with diabetes (over 30 years) and to see anyone with this terrible ailment still doing their best in what they enjoy doing is always heartwarming. It shows fortitude and courage and it shows you give your best!! Stay safe Matt, you have been a friend to both the audiophile and RUclips community for many years and hope to see you make such great content and merchandise for many more to come!!!
The so called 'intros' are part of what makes your channel so enjoyable, and are always completely relevant to the content of the video. It's like listening to a mate chatting about the stuff we love!
im so boring i even play the "outro"
@@dandare6865 me too!
Yes, techmoan, please take all the time you need!
@@dandare6865 i play the "outro" music all the way to the end.🤭
How is this comment from 3 days ago when the video says it was uploaded an hour ago .... Tf 0_o. (edit, it's a Patreon thing that I was unaware of lol)
I recently had this EXACT issue on a Sony SACD changer (Sony SCD-CE595). It would read CDs and normal SACD discs, but the hybrid disks would ONLY read as normal CD. I did a lot of research and it looked like I just had a bad laser or something...until I found a post in one particular forum. It outlined a procedure in the service manual called the "U-con Procedure". It was basically a series of actions (voodoo) that fixed the problem permanently (mine has worked over a year with no issues whatsoever). Here is what I had to do:
1. Turn the machine off, with no disc inside.
2. Press "enter" and "menu" simultaneously. While holding them down, turn on the power. The display reads "diag mode"
3. Press the open button to open the tray. Insert a hybrid disc and press the button again to close the tray.
4. Rotate the "enter" knob clockwise until "B0" appears in the display. You have to go a pretty far distance to get there, keep turning.
5. Push the "enter" knob. The display will read "FFFF"
6. Rotate the "enter" knob clockwise again until "B1" appears.
7. Press "enter" The display will count down some negative numbers until a 4 character string appears. It's a hexadecimal number.
8. Rotate "enter" clockwise again until "B2" appears. Press "enter".
The same 4 character number will appear again. It should be, numerically, between 04D0 and 08D0. If you are not familiar with hex numbers, don't worry, since there is nothing you can do about it anyway.
9. Press the open button and unload the disc. Press the button again to close the tray. IMPORTANT: turn the power off. You are now out of diagnostic mode and you are calibrated.
Good luck!
Replying for visibility! I've seen this type of thing in automotive HVAC systems too.
👍
Jeez, that sounds some complicated voodoo! o.O
How the hell someone even finds out this process? I guess from a service manual, but still...
This was my exact thought.
No problem with the laser, the problem was with the focusing mechanism.
It could focus on the main disc layer, but couldn't focus on the inner layer, probably due to wear and tear or slight component degradation. The recalibration helps to correct for these problems.
Hope your machine serves you faithfully for many more years.
I would say this is witchcraft😅 Definitely worth a try though
“A bit long winded “ are the best kind of Techmoan videos Mat we can wish for 😄
Exactly, the longer the better.
@@firewalker1372 At least when it is like how Techmoan does it (unlike someone like..let's say The Spiffing Brit, who does some pretty funny videos, but is a prime example of how not to do longer-the-better with all the needless padding and recurring segments that get boring after 3 videos and then you realize the joke is in ALL videos anyway, so it is padding rather than a joke.)
I vote for all intros, all the time. Just intros nothing else. Of course what”those people” call intros, are why most of us come here.
Keep doing exactly what you’ve been doing mate!
"Why do you want an SACD Player?"
"Because I want an SACD Player"
You legend.
Its how I feel when people ask me "Why do you buy old computers from the 90s?"...because I like them and the experience of nostalgia.....but they still look puzzled!
@Taco sorry to burst the bubble but nah, it's better than DVD-Audio at lower than ~15 kHz sounds, but that "betterness" is irrelevant as well, as the dynamic range goes way past the 144 db of DVD Audio, meaning you're just further into the deafness threshold. Both surpass human's hearing by a heck lot. Also above those frequencies it's actually worse. At ~20 kHz (so near the CD upper limit) you're at about 120 db dynamic range, or worse than DVD-Audio (CD is 96 db).
Storing ultrasonic frequencies do no good to your sound anyway, they don't make the lower frequencies better, just storing a bit more than any human can hear (say, store up to ~30 kHz) is all you need, mathematically, no "but I can feel" stuff. The audiophile world is full of those myths and snake oils. SACD does have a factual advantage in audio quality, and so do DVD Audio but sound is just math and physics at the end of the day, and not even too complex ones at that to store, reproduce, measure and calculate the advantages. "more analog like", the 80's stair-step myth and such are all just BS.
Should be put on a t-shirt.
@@gibbo9089 Yeah, that was the best. I'm putting that one in my my quiver for sure,.
@Taco Yes, and that is entirely independent of the medium or encoding.
You'll hear subjectively better quality music even on bog standard CD with a good recording, as 96 db is just OK-ish on paper, but nothing to be ashamed of either.
A less compressed mix on SACD/DVD-Audio is the majority of their sound advantage in Stereo mode.
Obviously, the people making these comments are not regular viewers of your channel. Your loyal viewers are here for all the quirky fun and the journey is just as if not more important than the destination
“Because I want an SACD player… so that one’s checked off.”
LMAO… the perfect answer. Never stop being you, Mat. We love you. Don’t let the trolls get you down.
👌👍
in the words of Adam Savage (I might be paraphrasing a little), "You can learn more from someone's failures than you ever could from their successes" this video is a perfect example of that, and I am glad you uploaded it because a lot of content creators are too afraid to upload their failed attempts. This was a genuinely fascinating watch.
There was a Donut Media Money Pit episode where they rebuilt the power steering rack on their Miata. When they put it back in, it promptly blew up all over the driveway. Their reaction was defeat, basically said "yep, that's how this goes sometimes."
I think videos like that are really important because it shows that not every project is a success and that's normal. It's easy to feel inadequate when everybody you're seeing online is only showing success. It's nice to see the failures, it's helpful for the viewers and the creators.
As a saying on a tile back in my old school said: 'Learn from other peoples mistakes. You don't have enough time to make them all yourself.'
For what it's worth, this type of content is one of the main reasons I watch your videos. You are one of the most informative channels on RUclips for technical repair/ trouble shooting this kind of stuff.
I was looking for a comment like yours: I totally agree!
And I hope we will never have "TikTok" type videos !!
If you want technical repair on YT try Mr Carlsons Lab, an electronics genuis.
Which is useful to learn, even if what you're troubleshooting isn't an SACD player.
I find the same thing watching Adam Ragusea's cooking videos; he narrates enough to help you out on completely unrelated stuff.
Just wanted to reassure you that I am among the "whole story" crowd. I really like your style, and I love videos like these. Failing technology deserves a repair attempt, and the story is worth telling whether it worked or not. Thank you :)
i've been repairing audio for thirty plus years. swapping a laser over is never just as simple as swapping it. you need to check the RF level and adjust/alighn or the laser won't focus and or read the TOC. I think you touched on not just twiddling things. this never ends well even if it does for a short period start to work. Happy to help if you have the tools, happy to repair FOC to help the channel.
Lots of folks out there who do shoddy repairs. I always roll my eyes at those who think they can adjust a DAT machine's tape path "by ear" or by just using a scope, adjusting the RF wave form without entering the proper test mode. Well, there's repair and then, there's repair 🤷🏼♂️
Reminds me a CD player I repaired some years ago that was randomly skipping. Could be all kinds of stuff, but at the end of the day, it occurred to me to try to lubricate the mechanism before messing with any pots there. Lo and behold, it stopped skipping entirely. Guess the laser carriage was getting a bit stuck and jumping around when it had to do bigger moves than the focus lens could.
@@Kalvinjj all mechanism gum up over time so it's always a good idea to address these issues before doing any electrical work
Receiving stuff that has had the dreaded twiddler go at it is about the worst thing you can ever put on the bench.
PS I like how you described it never ending well. There are things existing that were twiddled in the 1960s that have never worked properly since.
Hello, I am an audio equipment service technician with 40 years experience. I discovered many years ago that laser replacements are very difficult and often fail. Since complete replacement mechanisms are no longer available and after a number of laser replacement attempts I stopped doing it because many times it would not work even though I have a laser power meter and can set up the 'eye pattern' on the oscilloscope. I enjoy your channel, thank you.
replace caps first ! With crapy eco friendly rules, even ceramic filter fails... so as Gandalf said to the signal you shall not pass..
Don’t apologise Mat, this is why we watch your channel. Also, your story on the hypo is totally recognisable 😉
As a fan of your channel who has watched your hour plus mini disc videos multiple times I say keep the longer videos coming. I honestly get a little bummed when I see you post a shorter one.
"Why do I want a SACD player?"
"Because I want a SACD player"
Just one reason I watch your videos, good for you!
I enjoyed that. Keep it up
I'm going to start using that for everything that I want. Well, I already do, but now I can show my wife that I have a verifiable, reliable source for my argument.
Best line of the entire video. Made my day!
@@Macrorie it really was. Lol. That’s like the most ultra matter-of-fact thing he’s said ever, I love it. 😂
Made me giggle
Well he's right. We're not gonna die without an SACD player, but we want one, do we?
Pragmatic, fallible, warm and human as always. Love it Matt, well done.
Not gonna lie, quite often I don’t even pay attention to what exactly the video is going to be about - if it’s another Techmoan upload I’ll watch it anyway. Your storytelling and production quality are so good and you’re an awesome fella to listen to. I’m just here for it, keep it up!
Same! Even if it's something I'm not remotely interested in if it's a Techmoan video I'm more than happy to watch!
@@skylined5534 Ditto!
SACD players seem to be really finicky. I bought a Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD player a while back that also plays SACD and I needed to enter a service menu and use both a CD and SACD disc to align the laser. Otherwise, it would only play the CD portion of a hybrid disc. Seems this is very common. I always enjoy following your repair attempts, even when not successful. This is just how the cookie crumbles some times. Thanks for keeping us entertained, no matter the end result 👍
It must be a generational thing because this might be one of my favorite videos you have done. It had everything, drama and humor. It was both educational and inspirational. Cheers! 👍
I wouldn't give up, Mat! Sometimes with Sony stuff, you have to go into the SERVICE menu and adjust settings, especially when changing entire CD mechanisms! I needed to do this for one of those CMT micro systems you recommended. The laser wouldn't read discs. I went into the service menu (using the service manual AND remote!) and performed laser tracking adjustments. It's complicated, but once I programmed the defaults in and applied them, on a power cycle (power off, unplug, replug, power on) it worked!
The diode must have no calibration from factory, the system thinks the old one is still in as they can adapt to old diodes, to accommodate wear-out.
Congratulations on trying so hard! I love fixing stuff, because everything is a new experience! Pick yourself up, dust off, and try again. Don't be disheartened, it's the learning process! Find a service manual and have a good read. I love repair life
My microwave wouldn't start anymore, so I took a chance that it might just be the touch panel, and ordered a replacement.
I put on my best techmoan voice and 20 minutes later, my microwave was working again 👍
The microwave is about 7 years old and I'm hoping to get many more years out of it, instead of adding to all the e-waste.
this. this is why we're here. don't take 'broken' for an answer. 😀🔧
Does it still work with your usual voice ?
@Frédéric dj no, every time he cooks a frozen dinner, if it comes out too hot he says, "FLIPPIN HECK!" And when its done he has to say, "well that's it for the moment. As always thanks for heating."
I've got a Cisco 3750 switch that work were getting rid of and I decided to take it home. Powered it up, all the lights come on and nothing happens. I could junk the whole thing, or I can get on Ebay where you can get a new power board for not a lot...
Awesome!
Great story, Mat - cheers for sharing!
The laser protective cover part reminds me of a screen repair I did on a Nintendo DS. Was I peeling away a protective film on the screen? No, I was not - I peeled off the resistive touch screen layer. Time to buy another.
Oof. Reminds me of when my brother wrecked a game case by pulling on the plastic holding the cover art in after the protective shrink wrap was already removed.
Many of us have been there. Probably the worse mass case of this was the layer on the galaxy fold phones that really did just like a shipping-scuff protection layer. Great way to ruin a $2000+ phone...
The first thing I do when you post a new video is look at the run time. When it's over 20 minutes, I get excited because I know there's likely a good story behind whatever it is you are showing that week. It's my Saturday tradition to get up, make a cup of coffee and settle in for a Techmoan repair adventure. Keep doing the awesome work you do!
Thanks, I enjoyed the video, do not change the way you do things.
Keep doing what you are doing mate, people will always complain, no matter what you do - I come here because you do what you do.
Agreed 👍
Many old DVD Players play SACD's at the fraction of the price of a stand alone SACD Player and sound fantastic to, the Denon DV1930 for one
I'm ashamed to admit that I laughed out loud when the machine read "no disc." Only because I've been there before - I can identify with spending a good deal of money trying to repair something only to have it end up slightly worse than when I started. Anyway, great video.
It's when you take a photo of the disc, inside the player, on you phone and then wave it at the machine screaming "Yes there *expletive* is, look.. look... LOOK you stupid *more expletives* thing!" that you know it's time to step away...
1.2 million subscribers can't be wrong. Keep doing what you do in the way you do it. No need to apologise for your honesty and personal opinions..
"Wasting both my time and yours with the tale of a faulty SACD player and a botched rescue mission." I really couldbn't disagree more. I truly see this as most informative and educational. It's always handy to know any pitfalls. I salute you, sir for not hiding this.
Thank you for telling this story. You have my full sympathy and, as they say, "I feel seen". I'm currently grappling with a high-end cassette deck which has mechanical problems. Each time I take it apart and think I've properly fixed it, it turns out to have stayed the same or got worse. I even, out of desperation wanting to transcribe some cassettes, bought another machine but that doesn't work properly either! It's a long road to getting things working properly.
You'll get a working unit eventually, keep at it!
Hell, you'll even learn a thing or two along the way.
Please don’t change the format of your videos. Your videos are top-notch, I always get excited when I see a new video come out. I absolutely love the content and the format of your videos. You’re one of my favourite RUclipsrs!
You can't win them all. Some things are just not meant to be mended. What we did learn was that lasers of fussy little things. That in a way is a happy ending!
Yeah Hi. I had the same issue as you. I found details online as to re-calibrating the laser in the service mode to hybrid SACDs. That was an easy exercise and it worked a treat. Let me know if you want more details.
I done the same thing with one of mine. Had the same problem where it wouldn't read the SACD layer. Luckily mine was a DVD/SACD/CD player so there was an on-screen service menu but I know that other models can be recalibrated by reading values from points on the board.
Hate to say it but there's a good chance it would have fixed the problem without needing to spend all that money on new lasers.
I just wanted to say that I do enjoy the journey/story. It's all part of the entertainment/learning process in my opinion.
When replacing a laser, you need to adjust BIAS and GAIN to make it work (target voltages should be part of the datasheet). I did that many times when replacing the lasers of PlayStation 1 consoles. It won't just work - if it does, it's just a coincidence.
Exactly this. Plus I'm convinced many "laser failures" are just components that have changed characteristics enough through age for the original calibration to not be correct anymore and recalibrating it can save it.
Would like to see this tried in an update video :)
@@RedShift5 i've had this on my gamecubes- a gamecube that will never read any disc can usually be fixed by adjusting a single pot
@Zockblatt Shickleblender So is this why CD-R and -RW playback was such a hit-and-miss thing for a while? Pre-determined gain settings and lower reflectivity?
@@nickwallette6201 The pits and lands are shaped differently on a burned CD (more rounded) than a pressed one (more square and defined) as well.
I have a Denon SACD player. The idea is that you have to replace the laser heads on them about as frequently as you replace tires on a car.
A channel with 1.2 M subscribers does not need to explain itself. We love you.
I tune into your channel as if I'm sitting down for a beer with you. Take your time with your intros, I'm not going anywhere!
DON'T CHANGE!! The videos are perfect. We love your videos for exactly as you intend them to be. Pure brilliance every time. 🤩👌
I love how genuine these videos are, I appreciate you not compromising based on whatever impatient people want. Keep doing what’s true to you.
Love the content, love the style. No need to apologize, this is what we come here for 😁
I agree with this guy.
I'm 20 as of now and I love just staying and getting all of the story of your videos. It makes them all the more fulfilling
"a bit slow, not high energy" - perfect!
Boy can I relate to this “repair”! Though both expensive and frustrating- not to mention self-beating- I found this video so refreshing that we are all human, we all make mistakes and if mature enough, we can laugh in hindsight. Indeed I did whilst watching you struggle. Thank you so much for making me feel “normal” through my attempted “repairs “.
Maybe it was off camera, but for proper grounding procedure you should be sure to have a connection to Earth in the wall socket to actually disperse the excess charge, just connecting a mat to your strap won't give you hardly any protection. Enjoyed the video thanks!
It's all plugged into the wall via a double adaptor.
@@Techmoan Thank you for the clarification, I wasn't sure so I figured I would mention it just in case. I would also like to say even though the closest thing I have to hifi is a pair of AirPods Pro, I have always been entertained and simultaneously learned a LOT about vintage electronics and A/V formats from your channel. I am young enough that I haven't experienced most of it in person, making it all quite novel to me. It's never something I would have sought out on my own, but I am very glad that you have shared your knowledge and talents with us. Keep up the great work!
Your "intro" is part of what I love about your videos. The whole package.
In my opinion the backstory is the most interesting part of your videos. They show your specific knowledge that most people don't have.
I am a lifelong tinkerer and really enjoy your videos. No explanation needed on why you do the vids you do or the production values.
There is a grounded ethic in attempting to revive a faulty machine. When successful it is a great feeling of accomplishment and it keeps the item out of the waste stream, at least for a while longer.
Hope you keep exploring esoteric tech and digging into it and figuring how it works and making it work if it doesn’t.
There are those channels out there where they always manage a repair and a happy ending. Most viewers however understand that life isn't really like that.
Long-winded, slow, not very high energy, a progressing story... I like that. Thank you for doing it this way.
Allright, 40 seconds into the video and I had to pause ⏸️ it to comment. Sir the longer and more winded your videos the better!!! I could listen to you to talk about paint drying on the 🧱 wall. For the record (no pun intended) your Hi Fi videos are my favorite.
Dont change the format of your videos. Its perfect as it is.
Literally my favorite start to the weekend is hearing Mat kick off another video. Thank you sir from the US for all of the hours of brilliant content. And by the way love your intros and storytelling. It is one of the best elements of the channel.
Mat, this is your channel, your content and your intros, period
Please Mat don't change the format of your videos in any way, I love your narration and enjoy the full story of whatever it is you are covering. Also, showing the occasional failure makes the videos feel genuine, we all bugger things up now and again. I prefer the RUclips channels where the creators show their stuff ups over the ones where everything always turns out perfect. Love to see a video covering that SACD player you've just acquired. Cheers, Alan.
It is precisely why I follow your channel, because of the "introduction" you make of the product, I also like to see that you can repair/disassemble to review a problem, not everything can always be fixed, but the experience of having tried is what matter, greetings from Lima Peru.
A nice long Techmoan video with a coffee. Perfect for Saturday morning!
So much patience! I think at around 20:00 I would have taken a sledgehammer to the effing thing.
dont let the kids get you down. i love all the history and stories.
Don't be one of those people that deride the "youth". There are a lot of young people that are smart, interested and engaged with the world.
I love the story “intro”. These are not just about the products, but putting yourself into the lives of people that seen these items come out and how they interacted with the products.
I have a friend who had a Marantz SA8260 SACD player and he experienced exactly the same issues that you have. He found that replacement laser assemblies were becoming increasingly unreliable so in the end he bought a modern Marantz player that was being heavily discounted and he's highly delighted with it.
Have found glasses lens cleaner not based on solvents effective.
@@johnhamilton2923 My friend ended up buying a Marantz KI Ruby, which was being sold heavily discounted and he felt he just couldn't pass that by. However, he has told me recently that he bought a two-CD set (not SACD) of a work and one of the discs wouldn't play through it, but he managed to get a replacement and that was fine. A bit of a mystery. Maybe there was a TOC problem with that disc.
Please, never stop telling the Story around the main Event. I know most main topics, but the Stories about them are the real fine gems ot the composition - that´s why i am here! Great work again, by the way. Thanks for sharing!
I love this kind of detailed video on the repair effort, regardless of the outcome. Credit to you for being open about your mistakes - we're all human and mess up all the time. Takes real character to share that with a million subscribers!
Honestly, part of the reason your channel is so wonderful is that you give so much context and information. Your "long- winded intros" are very much part of the point of watching your videos. Plus, I don't understand why so many random audience members think they know better than the people making the content they watch. Lol.
Don't change anything. I love your format.
Well if you still have the original laser, put it back in, then at least it can still do something.
I've replaced the laser unit of numerous Playstation 2 consoles. Even brand new, 1 out of every 4 replacement lasers don't work right out of the box.
I have always enjoyed your approach to telling a story. The way you take the time to explain things both a seasoned techie and a novice can enjoy your content. Keep doing what your a doing bud ! I have enjoyed every video you've done and appreciate the time and effort you put in. Thx !
You remind me of my self repairing a playstation 2. The DVD drive was very similar and boy was that a pain in the ass to repair
I'm definitely of the side that you should take all the time you want to explain what you're doing, I don't want a 30sec montage of whatever you're doing
I feel like If you’re just looking for the problem, the fix, and the result this isn’t the channel for you. Techmoan wouldn’t be techmoan without stories winding around every which way.
i prefer the story version. thanks for doing what you doing.
Can’t wait to see the SACD format video. I love the “LP” style videos you make. Please don’t change a thing.
As someone who worked as an A/V Technician from the 80's untill the early 2000's I can only say, "Well done. That was a really good try at a repair that rarely works out".
P.S. I love your videos. Your channel was one of my first subscriptions.
He did not follow the procedure : Test CD, service manual, put the machine in service mode (buttons or special remote), set up the read mode, adjust level/tilt/... and SAVE the value (if not you can set everything at 0000).
“I can pray but it wont help” 🤣
Beat me to it 🤣🤣
Failure is not a waste of time, if something valuable is learned. It takes great courage to share one's defeats, so that others may learn from them. Bravo!
I enjoy your rambing as much as your "high energy" (really literally never happens in your videos and I love you for it) content. Never change.
Hi, interesting video, I know that problem, 🤔,,there's an simple fix,put the sacd hybrid in the player,DON'T press play and with the remote control select track 1,,,it then plays all 7 of my Peter Gabriel hybrid sacds,,,,good luck 👍
Thank you so much for also sharing your failures and describing how you got there!
My takeaway is, it's always good to know your own limitations. There's nothing wrong with challenging those limitations from time to time, and sometimes that works out okay and sometimes it doesn't. The best part here is, although it wasn't cheap by any means, some people pay considerably more to find out their own limitations. In my opinion, I'd say money well spent!
You can’t be faulted for your honesty, good on you for giving it a go.
Your videos are never a waste of time, mate. I feel your pain. I'll try repair almost anything, but occasionally I am defeated after too much time invested.
This is about how every repair I attempt goes. Welcome to the support group, grab a chair and a box of tissue. 🤣
Welcome me in as well...
My names Mat, and it's been two days since I last broke something.
"...and I just kept hearing this voice in my head telling me how much money I would save..."
@@Techmoan I NEED A FIX!
It depends on what item is of interest. There's nothing wrong with your intros and talking about the history of items. I've learnt a lot about format wars etc... sometimes I will sit here for half hour or more because something grabs my attention, other times I'm happy with a 10 minute video... its just what tickles your fancy. Don't stop doing what you do though, you know what to talk about in length and what to keep to a short clip. I admire your work, am envious of all the vintage audio equipment you've got lol 😆 and love your videos... if its about something I'm not interested in then I just wait for the next one. I dont get why people have to constantly moan its pathetic. Anyway thanks for entertaining us tech geeks and teaching us, you're like the cool school teacher for us tech heads 😊
Usually replacing a laser you need to use an oscilloscope to setup the replacement laser. As they are all different your unit will be adjusted for the original laser, there is a good chance this will work again if it is adjusted correctly with a scope. It's more than just a laser power adjustment, there are focus and tracking adjustments too.
That mat you are using is anything but a grounding mat. They are designed for high temperatures for hot air rework. These are actually counter intuitive for anti ESD purposes as they create static.
Next time you lift it off the desk put the back of your hand under it as you lift it and feel the static.
Great video by the way, interesting as always.
Although I'm not a diabetic, I do suffer with hypoglycaemia however and I find sometimes I push through some repairs in the workshop and get somewhat lightheaded and "Hangry" which is never a good combination during a repair.
I would have assumed that plastic shield was a shipping lock too, surprised they didn't put a sticky tag on it saying "don't snap this off!" I bet a fair number of techs made the same mistake repairing these back in the day when they changed the rev of the laser subassembly.
Agreed- maybe he used more force than he needed to from being "stupid", but I'd certainly have thought it was removable and given it a good go.
I watch you because you tell the story behind the devices you feature. I like learning the history of the devices you pick apart as well as the inner workings.
This is still a great story and a really nice video to watch. Thank you for your time (and funds!) making it.
The "Intro" part of your videos are not only essential but one of the things I love about your videos. Keep doing what you do best!
Please continue making the videos as you always did! I enjoy the stories and see how much research and other work went into it.
please don't be too hard on yourself. No matter my state of mind, I always try to step away from a problem if I feel stuck. Breaking the laser, extremely relatable for me. Love your content, and thank you for including your fumbles as well as victories.
All filler and no thriller! love it!
0:48 Yes for us old people this is called a Prologue. The bit of the story that explains what the main story is going to be about. Prologues are important if you want to fully invest in the journey that is the piece of tech in question and the specific piece that is on display now. Rambling is great, shows enthusiasm, and that you are not just drying reading from a script. For those who don't like it then don't watch it and skip it, and let those who do enjoy it. Today's youth forget you can fast forward or skip things in videos longer than a minute.
keep doing what you're doing, you're great and i love your content
Finally someone showing their failures. I do repairs, sometimes you spend 10-15 hours on some darn machine but you never get it working again. It's hard to cope with it sometimes, but it helps for me to see you cope with it.
I’m looking forward to seeing a video on SACD as I don’t know a huge amount about the format. I was never into higher quality audio at the time the format was released and was more into portability, so was more interested in Minidisc.
You keep doing it the way you have. It's the best part of all your videos, you do your research and knowledgeable and you are doing what you love. And the best part of all your videos is the journey where it takes you.
Well, you know that old saying - you cant please all the people all the time Matt.
I for one (of many) enjoy your videos, even when things dont go to plan, thats just life in general.
Hopefully any income from the video & merch will offset the outlay on the replacement lasers, & even though I did a B-Tec in electronics back in the 80's you are braver than me dismantling many of these items.
I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for your charming personality that shines through your storytelling. Keep it up, don't let people change you
Would be interesting for you to take a peek inside the full sized SACD player and seeing if it has the same mechanism as the failed narrow one. Love the episode, never too long :)
Usually, the transports are very similar within a product lineup.
Yeah, I'd wonder about the release date of the machine vs. hybrid SACDs.
Much like how early CD players struggled with burnt CDs or ones with hidden tracks, but ultimately got sorted later on, I wonder if this is an early SACD player before hybrid discs.
@@quintessenceSL my 2001 SCD-770QS has no problems whatsoever with dual-layer Hybrid SACDs. Remember: those Hybrid SACDs were part of the SACD spec from the get-go.
Don't change the format because some people are too entitled to click further in the video. I've always liked the format and it's transparency. Keep it up! Been watching for years.
Hey there, might be late but here's my experience replacing my laser assembly on a PlayStation (the original model). In that case every console was calibrated to the cd unit, meaning the 3 potentiometers on the board had to be fine tuned to feed the amount of power that unit specifically wanted. This basically paired each unit to their console due to manufacturing tolerances back then. The service manual listed what each pot did and the ranges you could try to fine tune a new laser assembly. I think it's worth a try!
I replaced a laser on a PS2 back in the day, chucked it in worked first time. Luck of the draw I guess.
As always Matt a great show and I always admire your frankness when addressing your audience. With that said, my father suffered for so long with diabetes (over 30 years) and to see anyone with this terrible ailment still doing their best in what they enjoy doing is always heartwarming. It shows fortitude and courage and it shows you give your best!!
Stay safe Matt, you have been a friend to both the audiophile and RUclips community for many years and hope to see you make such great content and merchandise for many more to come!!!