Hey Tracy! I have come back to this one again. Thanks for it. I love the fact you are truly outdoors and not just sitting in your vehicle in a parking lot. Everyone has their own style, I know, but I love the simple purity of what you have going. I love to turn my power down lower and lower to just enjoy the fun of low power radio. Have a great day! 73
I can remember before digital radios, 10 watts was considered QRP. At some point, 5 watts became popular for QRP. Even in my time, besides the improvements in receivers, there is now a better understanding of antenna theory and design.
There is no better understanding of antennas in Amateur radio. That is entirely oversimplified myth and fairy tales like tuners and chokes. There is new science in antennas but its Quantum and Nuclear physics, far beyond any Amateurs reach.
As with your shack station, most important is antenna, then feed/coax, then wattage. I was out in a park yesterday cutting a new EFHW to be 1.04:1 at 7.125MHz for the upcoming field day and it really didn't seem to matter on my 705 if I was running 5 watts or 10 watts, I was easily making contacts (usually 58, 59, or at least 47 or better) from other parks upwards of 1000 miles away. I really haven't made too many coast to coast contacts on 5 watts SSB, but with my 20 watt G90, that isn't an issue, so to me, the difference between 5 and 10 watts isn't noticeable, but 5 watts vs 20 watts is to a degree.
Good video with results I would have expected. I run 5 watts but when no one hears me I move up to 10 watts and often get through. CW really helps with QRP success. 73, Dave N3CI
That was a nice comparison between powers. I like QRO because I can usually get through, but I have to admit that QRP is a great test of skills. I might try it myself someday. Thanks for the video.
Give it a try, David. Turn down that RF power knob and surprise yourself! I once had a chat with a ham in Cuba. I was running 5 watts and he was running 100. When he heard I was QRP, he turned his power down to 5 watts and the QSO continued. He was blown away.
It was an experiment. My own experience is QRP cw with 5 watts with good success. I can't compare it honestly. Also I have no experience with SSB QRP but I was told the limit is 10 Watts. I was suprised to learn you can work SSB QRP with 5 Watts.
Fascinating result, Tracy, thanks! I think this is also a great demonstration of the fact that we need not run 'full' power all the time, and a great reminder for us to run only as much power as is necessary to make the contact. That courtesy guideline seems often to be forgotten. Btw, it's great to see you having such a great time out there despite the rain. Very inspiring! :-)
Enjoying going thru your older videos, a fine example of QRP operation and what the additonal power brings to the operation, both in benefits and costs (weight/power,etc). Thanks again and always motivating to make me want to go out and do more QRP !
Best rule to follow when operating QRP - use a resonant antenna. Avoid 9:1 ununs and use either resonant dipoles or EFHW - you need to get as much of that 5W radiated as you can. With EFHW you get the bonus of resonant, tuner (and loss) free multi-band operating. Great video. 73
@@mssippijim 20 meters/66ft wire length is resonant on the 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m bands. 10 meters/33ft wire length is resonant on the 20m and 10m bands. Wire lengths are + - a few feet depending on deployment/location factors.
I know I'm a little late to the show on this, but a great experiment and for me, not a surprising result. I can only run 10w as is my licence privilege, but I can make contacts all over the world when out /P using my FT857 and homebrew fan dipole for 10,20 & 40. Its always so satisfying to get that contact on 5 or 10w while others are chucking 100w TX. Of course the more power the likelihood of more contacts, but that's the limitations accepted by operators running QRP. Many thanks for sharing.
There's a local ham here that makes contacts with half watt CW, one end in the air and the other end soaked in the salt water under his dock.... there's QRP, and then there's the QRP that's "5W" or less. In many QSOs that I have made using 20W on LSB I've asked the other operator to spot me as I dropped the power to 10W vast majority of the time they don't hear a difference. But.... I found if I abandoned my EFHW and relied on a Bugcatcher with only a 15ft whip on a coil and using a tuner to match it. that extra ten watts seems to make voice a little more recognizable. I think its the antenna beyond anything else (the radiating element proportion to the rest of the antenna) that is what really makes a difference. If I had a beam on a rotator fifty feet in the air and propagation is good, I want to say with 5W can be heard anywhere in the world. Good video, I still prefer 10W. its 10dB greater than 1W, 10dB less than 100W. Seems to strike a nice balance when you're hiking and setting up 66ft of wire and can't carry that much batteries for 100W. 73 de KN4GEI
Interesting video Tracy. As you say propagation changes, and I think sometime the first 5w of a 20w tx is just enough to get over the other stations noise level. I have just ordered the qcx mini, so I will see for myself what 5w will do. I have worked zl from the uk back in the day with 5w home brew, so we never know what might happen. Great channel Tracy, keep up the good work. 73 zl3xdj.
I turned down the power on the Icom ic7300 to zero to do a little cw practice on field day ‘22 before calling stations. I was amazed to work two stations on Zero watts. Lol. Also logged a kp3 and a Kp4, but that was running 75 watts. Stranger things have happened I suppose.
I know this is 4 years old, and maybe someone has already mentioned it. You worked 5 watts first so when you worked 20 watts, you had to skip ones you worked before. If you had done the 20 watts first, dare say you may have gotten less than 10 Q’s with 5 watts. Nice experiment as I was considering a 20 watt rig. I struggle on SSB with 5 watts. 73’s De n5vwn
Conclusion? 1000w will bring 7500 contacts. The 5w did great - contests are a great time to try low power. It's more of a reward to break a pileup with 5w.
Second day of FD gets you heard, after most all the big stations have worked each other on multiple bands and are listening more for ANY station they've not put in the logs, and sleep deprivation. They can be rather worn and frazzled as I found them Sunday morning of FD on 10m this year.
Wade I like to get in a contest during the last hour or so when people are desperate for a new multiplier or new station. You can be on the receiving end of some decent pileups lol.
A very good video, I wish I had the wether with all to be able to make one. Five watts for one hour versus twenty watts for the same time, if I’m honest, I expected the result you got. From five watts to twenty watts, is a significant increase in power. In the many years I have partaken in qrp activity, which is over forty years. I have learnt many things. The biggest thing of all learnt, was patience. To operate qrp successfully, I discovered you need plenty of it. When I was first licensed, my first transceiver was a Yaesu FT 77S, with a maximum p.e.p. output of just ten watts. This was coupled via its antenna matching unit to a five band trapped vertical, as space in my back garden was at a premium. I used this setup for many years on s.s.b. and c.w. often competing with stations of much higher power. I made many contacts world wide, and have say, enjoyed every minute. Today, I run an early FT 817d, and usually an asymmetric dipole ( six to forty metres, with a converted Ampro 160 vertical for Topband ). The five watts from this setup is very modest in comparison to what I could run, but at the end of the day, it is a hobby, it has many variables, you just have to work out which is best fo you. Take care all, keep making those great videos. 73’s de Geoff.
For winter field day 2024 I decided to run exclusively QRP. I’ve never done QRP before. I made 39 contacts. Only 3 at 5 watts the first two hours. I doubled my power and made 36 more contacts. My antenna was a 20 foot dipole. I’ve never understood the point of QRP. After this weekend I’m going to do more QRP outdoors. I have an old Index Labs QRP++ I’m going to fire up this week and run it through an Alpha Loop. This should be interesting.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir True confession. On field day I was sick with the flu. I didn’t want to do field day. I just wanted to sleep. Field day is preparing for emergencies and in a real emergency I would be in front of the radio. My 20 meter dipole is up 25 feet and I turned my Icom IC-7300 down to ten watts. With my tuner, all of my activity was 15 and 20 meters.
Propagation can change somewhat over an hour ... did you consider smaller windows, like 15 minutes high then low? I will say that I find 20m easier to use QRP now that I live abroad than when I lived in North America surrounded by guys with kilowatts of power and multi-element beams versus my lowly dipole and 100 watts.
Fantastic video! I just got back from a two week trip to Ontario where we were out in the middle of nowhere and made a ton of contacts at 25 watts from a Yaesu FT891. The antenna plays a big role too though - we were running a G5RV with the feedpoint about 100 feet above the ground. That certainly helped.
Tracey, I have had the same results in previous contests. Five watts will work but in working other non contest stations and comparing I found many times they didn't hear me or didn't want to try to dig me out of the mud but going up to 20 watts made the difference, fifty watts guaranteed the contact. I have been playing around with the Sunday night Bitx40 group and much of the time could not get through with the 5 - 7 watts put out by many Bitx40s (mine isn't built yet so I used my IC 7000 tuned down to 7 watts) but found I had to go to 30 - 50 watts to get through. 10 watts didn't make any difference either but 20 watts seemed to be the magic number to get through. In a contest the big guns with big antennas usually came back to me with 5 watts on my FT 817 but when there was no contest I wasn't heard or was ignored because there was no reason to try to go the extra mile to make the contact. My experience was with SSB. On CW I had better luck with 5 watts. Great video with predictable results..... Dave K8WPE
Interesting video. Lots of variables here though, an hour can make a difference on band conditions. Also a 5 watt rig running at full output is normally more efficient than a higher power rig running at a reduced power. Good video though.
I was out yesterday and today. These days were spent tuning up an EFHW to a matching transformer. I will use the antenna with both my QRO that I have used for years, and the QRP radio that I haven't quite taken the plunge and purchased. With a VNA the tuning on the EFHW now has a 1.2 SWR on 40m.
Great video...makes me want to get out on my deck and fire up my IC-705 and AlexLoop and see who I can contact on 5w. I have been using 10w, but only in high noise areas. Trying to get to a more remote location for some low noise levels and experience true QRP action!
A very interesting video ! I have used 817, HF90, 703+, 857D, KX3 as portable ; whatever power I had I could make contacts be it 5W or 100W (which i seldom used, it was more like 30 - 40W) ; however, think of the military, they are using 20 - 50W power outputs on their rigs which is not without good reason. It also depends on the antenna, a lot. But, sometimes a good antenna and 5W are not enough and it can be frustrating (I have been through that) and sometimes you have not much time left beside the radio. To me, a minimalist portable setup (made of my commercial / military rig HF90, a 8.4A LiFePo, an antenna analyzer, a coil and a military whip or a fiberglass pole and an end-fed) is what i enjoy, if i have contacts I am having fun (that's the point, no?). Power out of the HF90 is around 50W under 10 megs, decreasing to 35W on 20 meters and so on to 5W on 10m. At least in SSB, 20 to 30W is comfortable enough to get contacts and not upset the other side who is struggling hearing us ; again, antenna has to be well tuned and well set-up for optimized results, and this applies to our portable stations too: "Your station is worth what your antenna worth" as per the french saying.
I tried a similar experiment a while ago with my Yaesu FT450D. When somebody was struggling to copy me at 5 W, I then bumped to 20W and they positively confirmed that the signal was much stronger and easier to understand. The difference is noticeable only when you are just above (or under) the noise floor, otherwise it's no big deal.
I have had many QSOs at 5W CW on 40m back when the bands were hot (2010) and almost no QSOs, same band & mode, within the past three months with poor band conditions. Rigs were an FT817ND when conditions were good and a Xiegu X5105 recently. I am pretty sure that I could have gotten (or will get) better results from the Xiegu when conditions are good. That did not stop me, however, from plunking down the cash for the 20W Xiegu rig, which will be interesting to test once it arrives. . . . And you're right: propagation changes over the two hours that you played the different power levels, the bands you used, the level of activity at that point in the contest, the number of mosquitoes and biting flies you had to fight, all that makes a difference and scrambles the results. A more interesting way to run it would be to have a beacon mode set up that switched between 5W & 20W within seconds on a band over a short period of time and then on another band. Back and forth a couple times. Which would have required more set up & other problems. Probably never get funding for that research project, at least not in today's Gringoland, science being vilified as it is of late. . . . Nice video all the same. And the results you got are probably indicative of what a four fold difference in power really does mean in the real world. Thanks for the effort, Tracy. Hope to hear you on the air some time. Nils/W8IJN
I've been torn between getting a Xiegu G90 for the extra power or a X5105 and add the power amp later on. I'm using both a loop antenna and and end fed. I'm mostly portable.
@@demiansims728 The G90 is a very superb radio (if you get one that works properly: mine has a faulty on/off switch and is being returned for an exchange). The X5105 is also a sweet radio. Mostly portable, I'd go X5105, even with only 5W. If you have the space & want to pack that much stuff, however, the G90 will get you contacts with more power. Both good radios.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir Antennas? Many ;-) Open wire fed 80m/40m dipole at 30ft tuned with a remote control Z-match; series feed capacitor tunes the tower on 40m; Hustler 4BTV vertical; homebrew 30m/17m vertical. One feedline from the house to the switch unit in an outbuilding from there to the various antennas. Come summer this will be simplified some (I hope).
As you told and said in the video there are a lot of things in play but I can reflect from my side conducting similar experiments. I'm also using a fiber mast for vertical support of a HyEndFed antenna. The 4-band portable MKII, 100 watt version, using a 38 feet tall fiber mast. So I can't speak for the 40 meter band so far with this antenna as I'm using 33 feet of wire to tune on 20 and 10 meters. 33 feet home brewed wire cut to length with antenna analyzer. Dip is spot on and so I do most of my dx on 20 meters with a full size have wave vertical. (A taller pole to erect 66 feet would not fit my motorcycle in a safe way). I swapped a 10 watt radio for the new Yaesu FT-891, using a LIFEPO4 10000 mAh battery pack. Setup works outstanding. Comparing 5 watt QRP against 20 watts next using about 80 watts results in big differences. Reports from other hams confirm that signals are over 2 S-points stronger. QRP is a lot of fun but when I'm outdoors for only a few hours I like to make as much dx as I can. Being heard with 5 watts or 80 watts makes a lot of difference in SSB. in CW being heard with a smaller signal is easier than SSB. I'm so glad I got this little radio with great receiver and small size to pack being able to have power when needed. A few weeks ago I set up the antenna near my car and set for 20 meter DX. I managed to work Hawai from Belgium on the 20 meter band cutting through the pile up with a bit of luck. Also 1500 miles to 2000 miles range dx seems to work first call always. My setup is almost like a basic base setup at home doing it in minutes. For me personally, while QRP is fun especially in CW, when operating SSB using a 100 watt radio comes in handy to be heard in most cases. If you're interested you can find some pictures at www.qrz.com/db/ON4VP/p. Next to the HyEndFed I'm also using a I-PRO Traveler that's doing great also. It covers 5 bands and 40 with additional center piece, is also a vertical dipole but center fed and with capacity elements to reduce overall lenght. I would advise to use LIFEPO4 cells and not the acid batteries. LIFE4PO keeps a longer higher voltage. They also can stand a high current. they also weight a lot less. I made a pack inside a sandwich box with battery management system inside. The pack can deliver up to 30 amps and last several hours using 75-80 watts. Info on this pack google "lifepo4 headway" or check this fellow: ruclips.net/video/SJGKuriGRok/видео.html Thanks for the nice videos. 73, Phil
Hi Phil, thank you for sharing your experience. One day I will switch to the new batteries but for right now the cost effectiveness of the SLA's make up for the disadvantages. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
nicely presented Tracy, RESEARCH IS FUN! I've been using a Yaesu 817 with gr8t success over the last year, feeding into a folded dipole on 80m 73s M0 HXQ
Tracy, as you know we are talking an S unit between 5 and 20 watts but the extra power sometimes can help with weaker signals. QRP works for those that understand how to use their radios.
Great video Tracey--just came across you channel and great subscribers! This is pretty consistent with my experiments on CW. What I did, was to go from 10W down to 1-mW! We were amazed at how many contacts (CW) could be made at 1-mW. But, when the going got tough, we found that you needed to go to 10W to slug-it-out; with anything above that, just sounding nicer but not contributing to the QSO's bottom-line. This was using a non-resonant 102-foot Inverted-V dipole with 450-Ohm open feeders only at about 30-feet. These experiments were done multiple times with similar results. So, I have permanently adopted that any (survival-style) QRP-rigs that I make must put out at least 10W on 12-Volts. With light weight LiFePO4 batteries, this is a cinch--no more heavy NiCd's Hi-Hi! However, the majority of contacts can be easily made using 5-watts or less on CW. 73 to all!
Interesting. Perhaps another statistic to look at would be failed contacts. These would be when you put your call out and you were not heard. The difference between the 2 power levels might relveal something from that perspective. 73s
agreed with this, you'll make contacts with both 5/20W but your video starts with "some believe that these 5W is the difference between making the contact and not making it" well, if someone doesn't copy you, bump up to 10/20 and see if then they hear you. I usually do that the other way around. How low can I get until you can't hear me anymore and it's always different depending on the conditions. I went once to 1W and I was still 5/5 but sometimes at 50 they don't hear me anymore :/ That being said I enjoy all your videos, such a nice way to make them, bravo!
Like you said. Many variables. Time of day-more operators, grey line etc etc. I like Jonathan idea. Make the contact w/ 20 and ask if they still copy at t5. I've worked many field days. I know when I get tired, I don't "pull as many out of the mud" as when I'm fresh and go for the strong loud ones
There's really no way to discern between stations who couldn't hear and those who could but either didn't reply or did but couldn't be heard. I believe that higher power can help when band conditions are not favorable, but I found this video to be very inspiring because on Field Day I typically run my IC-7000 at 100 watts. With Winlink I drive my radio to about 30 watts, and even with a Buddipole I can still make contacts 500 miles away. Maybe one year I will step away from the club and operate as a QRP station on Field Day.
@@kd5you1 Sure there is. The way to discern if you're being heard or not is to find a websdr (sdr . hu) within the propagation range of your station and hear yourself and learn what actually happens. There's been no need to rely on anybody else's report for quite some time ...
With 6 dB more power there is no question you should make more contacts given an even distribution of operators. During my career at Motorola I've been fortunate to be involved in objective propagation testing on commercial systems. And I can tell you that 6 dB can make a substantial difference in area that your signal can be intelligibly received. I do enjoy your videos. I got my license last year partially because your videos helped motivate me to combine two of my interests, radio technologies and camping/backpacking. It's a fun hobby and I encourage you to keep experimenting. And keep videoing the process. As to QRP, well I enjoy that as well. I find it challenging to try to work out the best antenna for a given location in the field. Seems you do as well. 73
Thank you for sharing that insight, that work must have been fascinating. I appreciate you telling me that I helped inspire you to get your license. That is the best reward I could ever get from all the work I do to take my stuff outside and shoot the videos. Congratulations and have fun with the best hobby I know of.
That 6db is worth much more than just an "extra" S unit - 3db above the noise is enough to be the difference in being heard. Always thought the power vs S-units comparison trivialized the real difference - especially below 10watts. ;-)
Interesting experiment, Tracy! Actually 5 watts wins if you are operating under ARRL rules, because of the power multiplier. Also assuming two identical stations, one running 5 w and the other 20 w. The power multiplier for the 20 w station is 2 (same as up to 150 watts) while the multiplier for 5 w is 5. Therefore the 20 w station garnered 40 points, while the 5 w station garnered 50 points. Does this make me an anorak?🤣
I’m interested in the results of making a contact at 5 watts get a signal report, then switch to 20 watts and get another signal report from the same contact. I would bet the audio quality report would not be different just the S report.
Tracy always love your videos I did not expect to see that big of a stretch between 5 Watts and 10 Watts keep up the testing I love watching all your videos they are very informative and fun to watch I have the FT-817 ND and love the radio before I purchased it all my friends told me not to buy the radio because it is only 5 watts, have found that I have become a better operator because it requires more knowledge of antenna systems and how they work and has bettered my antenna building skills so I thankyou for your videos for they have made me a better operator 73's and stay safe out their.
Please please please update this video with the average distance of the 5 watt contacts and the average distance of the 20 watt contacts. This will greatly add value to your experiment and speak volumes.
Valuable anecdotal evidence for sure. Channels like this one have inspired me . . . was able to call with "/P" for the first time just today (using a home brew LiFePO4 battery modeled after OH8STN's builds). Also experienced my first overseas contact from Eastern Pennsylvania, so a pretty satisfying outing. 73 de AB3ZI
Very interesting. It would also be interesting to know what the difference was in power consumption from battery, between the 5W and 20W use. 73 ZS6AKW
Very good experiment! I have always been curious just how much difference 5 watts vs. 10 watts would make. I too have an FT-817nd and have considered purchasing an IC-703 for the extra 5 watts on SSB. It would have been interesting to also run the same test on CW. Good work Tracy!
I think there's something to be said for qrp. I think it make you refine operations. I could see in a real emergency you might be lucky to have qrp and then having previously learned to optimize the antenna system might make all the difference. I was listening to 20 meters the other day and J69Z calling cq from St.Lucia. I answered (at 500 watts) and we traded signal reports (59 both ways) Then he said he was making contacts as a memorial to his late friend who died saving his dog on a frozen pond K3LP who was a qrp enthusiast. To participate in the memorial I went qrp (10 watts) same as he was. It was satisfying and nice to honor his friend. Like it says- Use no more power than what is needed to make the contact. See the RUclips he made J69Z/W9DLP. It was fun to watch the video and actually see both sides of a qso 73
I am looking forward to getting out to a spot on my land that will be a half mile away from any power lines and seeing what I can reach and receive on HF. I don't have a portable rig but I think my IC-7300 will work for me.
Hi Tracy.....Just found your first class videos and I bought an ICOM IC 703 after watching you with yours...Can you or have you done a video of operating your YAESU FC-707 please..................................73;s and stay safe................
Hi there. That was of great interest to me due to the fact I'm Ex. R.Sigs and was use to luging a A13 H.P manpack rig plus personel gear around the Malaysian jungle along with a load of Light Infantry walers cutting their way through the jungle. They use to moan like hell that I was never sent forward to chop until the R.S.M gave the ring leader the chance to carry my radio while I got the chance to go up front. I jumped at the chance and was down against a tree and out of the harness in a flash. The guy could not get up off his arse with the rig on. I got called back and told him in no unceartain terms what I thought of him. Any how besides the point of how bloody heavy the A13 H.P manpack with all the necessary gear was. It only had 5 watts output. CW or AM.Possibly 20-25 Watts output with the H.P amp working. That used batteries like they were going out of style and realy needed some help by a bod winding the handle of the screw-in a tree charger. It is a bit hard to send CW while winding the charging handle round. (They could have developed a foot pedled charging system.) Without a half efficient antenna system, there was no way I was going to get any traffic through to HQ Singapore. I did have a go on std. power but got sick of being requested IMI. Our Battalion RSM did me a big favour. We were at about 600ft hovering to come into land in a Belverdear twin rotar chopper. We were getting the same sence you would get in a dryer on fast spin. The RSM told me to pass him my radio, so I could jump out has we got near to the ground and get the radio off of him. He was not strapped in. Lucky for him the RAF handler was. Due to the weight of the thing again, it took the RSM by supprise and he nearly went flying out of the side exit. He was grabbed but the radio went on its way down to ground. When we did get down I ran to my radio to see what damage had been done. It seemed ok but has I switched it on it made a rude noise at me and the meters sort of went tick -tock and back to zero. I jumped up onto the steps of the chopper pilots entrance and signaled that I needed to talk. I told the pilot that the radio was a right-off and could he please signal to HQ for me to get a full replacment by air lift. All good stuff. I eventually got a brand new A13 H.P radio. It was just as heavy. 73 de John - G0WXU.
John, thank you very much for sharing your experiences. I really enjoyed reading that. You must have been in tremendous physical and mental condition to carry that load, coupled with the stress that goes along with military service. Thank you again and 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Thank you Tracy for the reply. I just wish that I was half as fit as I used to be back then 50 years ago. Before then, when I was in "Boys Service" on "Adventure Training in the Welch Mountains, a bunch of us young lads use to hang back so that the sergeant instructors would shout at us to get a move on. We did get a move on and use to double past everyone. We never heard the calls to stop, so just kept going. Up and down mountains till we were first to the pickup vehicle at the end of the slog. The tea and soupe were still hot when we got there Hi Hi. That was when we would really stretch the limits of the "88 Manpack radios. They were a low band VHF ,xtal controlled tranciever. I think only supposed to communicate at Platoon /Section level for a range of approx 4 miles max. We would go up to the mountain tops and make a voice relay chain link up to "Snowdon" when possible from Tonfanau, Merioneth. Thank's again and keep up the good work. de - John -73 - G0WXU.
@@johncliff5417 The days of love and laughter lol.......... A41, carry frame and spare battery, let alone all my personal kit as an Infantryman are times to remember indeed. The clansman introduction in the early eighties was a huge jump, both in weight and TX output.
Great Tracy Use mainly CW I also use the FT897 but with my FT817 on 5 watts CW home made dipoles or half wave aerials worked over 100 countries using 5 Watts alone But I think A lot depends on you state of mind 5 Watts will do it if you believe in it and is a lot more satisfying .. .. Trig
It's a tall order to correlate evidence that high power equals more contacts with this kind of test because HF has far too many time, operator skill/behavior (on both ends), atmospheric/ionospheric, location, and weather based variables. A scientific check would be to have a 5w and a 20w transmitter, both transmitting at the same time, with identical antennas, using WSPR or FT8 and use WSPRNet and/or PSKReporter to cross-analyze which had more receptions or more distant receptions. That's one really awesome thing about online automatic receivers, is that we can now empirically verify the differences between antenna A and antenna B. However, what this kind of experiment proves is that if *feels* like more power actually made more contacts. It may be a placebo, or it may be real, but it's a good indication that it may be true!
Thank you for adding your thoughts. After many years of working contests, I have seen hour to hour propagation changes firsthand. I like your proposal that a placebo effect could be in part responsible.
Thanks for the test. My first transmitter was a Heath DX-20. It was supposed to have 50 watts input, so I figure about 20 watts into the antenna. I never felt that my rig was under powered. DE K8QLW/4/qrp
Good comparison. As you said so many variables but you do what you can to find out for yourself. I like you prefer to test a theory rather than listen to others argue a point. Cheers Brett
This is great - well presented and well operated experiment. For me, this is what real ham radio is about - scientific experimenting. Any fool can buy a powerful rig and spend a fortune on an aerial but the real pleasure is getting contacts on flea power and an improvised aerial. Thanks for posting - interesting results - upping the poundage does not result in a dramatic rise in contacts. I must go mobile more. 73s M6 OEQ
Nice work! On a good day, there's not terribly much difference between 5 watts and running 20 watts on the bands. The most amusing for me is working 'Inter G' (nationwide around the UK) on 40 meters; where you're giving 5/9 signal reports and they can't believe your simple FT817 running into an inverted vee linked dipole is doing so well versus their G5RV setups using hundreds of watts. Best contacts so far for me has been Svalbard, Asiatic Russia (Ural Mountains), and New York off just 5 watts. 73 de M6GOF.
When working QRP using CW makes a big difference. I believe 5W CW is as effective as 20W in SSB. And if you do not know CW, give PSK31 a try. I have made some amazing QRP contacs using PSK31. But you have to remember, the rules of the contest decide what is QRP and what not. But modifying a QRP rig from 5 to 10W does not make so big of a difference.
Great test Tracy. I think when the sun spot cycle turns back up, the results might be different. I think I would argue 20w isn't QRP. But, it was still a good test. Thanks for the post!
You are completely correct in that 20 watts is not QRP. And your point about trying this again at a Sunspot cycle peak is 100% accurate in my estimation. Thank you for watching!
Nice video sir. I share your interest in portable operation. My operating conditions are actually about the same as yours from the perspective of the 897, the vertical antenna, and an interest in using minimum RF power. Given the current solar cycle I too have found that the little extra bump in power from 5 to about 20, when operating SSB, is significant (while remaining battery friendly). 73s AC7AX
Thanks for your great videos Tracy, I work a lot of outdoor HF radio as I have an S 8+ noise problem from power poles nearby. Keep them coming Tracy. 73, Graeme VK3PGK
Thank you for this video. IMO there is a good reason, why mil grade manpack HF radios have 20-25 watts output for SSB. For communicating in the 0 to 1200 km (or 0-700 miles) coverage range in SSB, that is the most economical power. In CW it is 5 watts. Of course, it is possible to work far DX on the upper bands also with 5 watts in SSB, but for the not so far DX contacts at lower bands (80m/60m/40m/30m/20m) for SSB choose 20 and for CW (or soundcard digital modes) I would always use 5 watts. vy73 from Hamburg/Germany, Dietmar, DL4HAO
Thanks for the nice video! ;-) Would be very interesting real-time A/B comparison 5 vs.20W with the worked stations. Fast switching between two radios with antenna switch. ;-) 73, Paul.
Hi Tracy,very good video.I found that running 5 watts on 20,15 meters many hams use beans so they hear me better and vice versa.Ilike QRP but at times I My run up to 50 watts and the only time I ran a full 900 watts was doing emergency traffic. Ham radio is one heck of a beautiful hobby. Many thanks for an excellent video.73 BOB AF2DX
Of course over 2 hours propagation could shift and stations on the air can be different.... The extra power is worth maybe an S unit? Could be enough difference in some situations.
For a proper experiment there would have to be two stations operating simultaneously with identical antennas but at different power levels. It is fairly certain that there will be situations in which one S point has made all the difference. I recall a VHF contact where I went fro 5 watts to 25 watts and that made the difference between the other station copying perfectly and just getting mostly noise. It will depend on the noise floor at the receiving station and the signal strengths of competing stations in a pile-up situation.
Tracy, Thanks for a real world demo of ham radio. I enjoy seeing what others can do and yeah you can make contacts with 20 watts as you have proven. Nice clean install out in the field as well
In 1979 I mowed a lot of lawns to save up to buy a TenTec Century 21 which claimed was 70 watts input CW - Only, which in real practice was more like 50 watts input with about 20 watts output on the higher banks. I got WAS & WAC easily and probably 50-60 DXCC Countries without even setting foot on 20 meters before I upgraded to General in 1981. I had a serious motorcycle accident in 1982 and during my year of recovery, I focused on 2M SSB/CW as there were a lot of AU and TROPO openings. After marriage and moving to the city, I eventually got 2M VUCC #127 and had a ball. My HF rig then was a Heathkit HW-9 which I always ran at 1W CW into a rotatable dipole at 40 feet and a 3-element Yagi at 50 feet. Those two antennas seemed like a 20-watt amplifier based on the jump in contacts I received, I got WAS QRP in 18 months and I didn't even worry that the award was for running 5 watts instead of 1 watt, LOL. I cherish those memories and after being inactive for 20 years I am building a complete Tuna Tin 2 station for my POTA activations. The Super Tuna claims 2-watts of output Rockbound with a small VXO so I will again be focused on antennas when I get going on my hunting and activations, although by now I am a full-time RVer so I will get a chance to operate in a wide variety of mountain and saltwater environments seasonally between my work and play destinations. If I only knew as a Novice in 1979 that I would invent ways to have so much fun with my homebrew rigs rather than the $6000 ones the magazines promote to me, LOL. Cheers es 72, Dave - KU9L
Yeah! Another left handed ham. : ) WD4DCW. I am really thinking about getting a QRP rig. This video addressed my concerns about low power rigs. Thanks.
A very interesting and nice experiment but not too fair I think. The propagation can differ from hour to hour, but if the stations would give you report for 5 and 20 watts at the same time... Once I made the experiment while cqww working on 100 watt transceiver (with 70 in ssb) and a 10 watt transceiver with amp (about 100-120 watts in ssb) and I it gave me twice better result, stations gave a report of 10 dB increase. And some times the modulation rules, some stations with S-5 heard better than stations with S-9+.
Like you said, too many variables to draw a conclusion. I liked the video in spite of this because you're getting out and on the air and sharing it with us. For that alone, you deserve to know the appreciation we have! PS Nice rig!
I love it, could watch this kind of stuff for hours. I like doing this stuff also, but with all kinds of different antennas and checking my signals in PSK Reporter running FT-8.
That's a fair test and pretty much shows what we all know. More power means more contacts. The 6dB difference between 5W and 20W is one signal strength point and that's the difference between being just under or just over the noise floor. 6dB can genuinely and often be the difference between making the contact or not. I find on CW, if the other station is struggling to hear my 30W because of high noise or whatever, winding the rig up to 60W is enough to save the contact. Even that 3dB advantage is useful. QRP is fun. I used to milliwatt on SSB into Europe from the UK. That was great fun. Sometimes though you need that extra few dB's and we shouldn't be ashamed of it, not even those dyed in the wool QRPers.
What I love about RUclips is even videos a couple of years old are often very helpful. Thanks for sharing your excellent video and experiment. I was curious what are you using for your tall mast as I've been looking for a nice tall telescoping fiberglass or push up mast for my current 66' EFHW antenna with a 49:1 matching transformer.
Wade Patton, anything below one watt is called QRPp and it is absolutely shocking how well you can do. I regularly work 500-1,000 miles or more on 995 milliwatts CW. Give it a try.
Oh yeah, everything is easier on CW. But my first ever QRP experience was when two of us turned down to our minimum power (less than 4watts out), for less coverage (less ears), and a station broke in from over 700 miles away. We were on AM, and flabbergasted. Later I got a ticket and learned about propagation and such.
Oy-sm 500mW and a wire antenna. It was a ssb contact. Back in 2010 iirc. :) So qrp is very possible, Although a bit tough with the current solar cycle. I normally run 10 to 15 w QRo from my kx3, and often turn down the power to QRP and occasional QRPp. De oy1r/mm
@@warplanner8852 I can regularly make QRPp contacts in AM mode at 1000 miles under current solar conditions using 0.5 watt and a very efficiently grounded homebrew vertical.... I can't imagine what distances my 0.5 watt will give me at solar maximum??... and yes I did say good old AM mode, not SSB or CW
I really enjoy QRP. And being low power, I usually home brew or build kits at this power level. It's so rewarding to make contacts on something you built yourself! So my opinion is not to modify commercial gear. If you start modding, there are always more pitfalls down the road that also need consideration in a circuit! (One thing is shortening its life. Even with vacuum tube circuits, the amount of people who don't bias their tubes is astonishing).But rather just spend a bit more money for a higher powered rig and build yourself a QRP field rig just for the purpose! My recent Elecraft K2 build was tremendously enjoyable, very educational and a lot of fun! Soldering every connection myself and understanding how each section of the rig works, makes operating it a more fulfilled experience.
I would like to see more 20 watt all mode radios designed for portable operation, like backpacking. 20-25 watts is a great power level for portable operation. A 20 watt version of the KX series by elecraft would be the bee's knees.
Cool video. I wonder how many more contacts I'd be able to make during an hour, since I'm pretty sure that twenty would keep me pretty busy. Perhaps I'll try an hour during a contest at 20W and another at 100W for one hour to see the difference.
Increasing power from 5watts to 10watts is 3dbd gain. You must double power for 3db gain. So say i have a 100 watt transceiver. I make a contact at 5watts but conditions are degrading. I will go up in 3db increments until we have until he has good copy. So for example. 5>10 10>20 20>40 40>80 or just max 100watts. If i had a 1500 watt amp it would go like this..starting from 100watts. 100>200 200>400 400>800 800>1500
Hi Tracy. QRP still works. It is a bit challenging and here lies the fun. I really like QRP. Success has also a lot to do with the antenna used (this is the key), the band conditions, the noise floor at the receiving end and how many kilowatts are trying to get the same station as you are. I agree that, sometimes, a bit higher power is required but I do not see the need for 1k watts, or even 100W for that matter, unless this is for emergency communications. Anyway Tracy, another great video which is inspiring an re-enforces my enjoyment of QRP . Best 73 de Chris VE2MW
Nice video, I enjoy the content on your channel. I have an 817nd and have found that with about 30 to 40 watts on an amp the audio improves but I still get a kick out of the 5 watts WOW factor when I get a real 5-9 report from 2,000 miles away. Keep up the great work!
Nice demo. Conditions change over time, had it been on one band, I wouldn't have taken it seriously, but using this composition of lower and higher HF gives some idea.
Hi Tracy! Another relevant and informative video on QRP. Thank You!! Another important factor is elevation... I have had really good success when I operate at altitude of significance (above 4000ft.) and have no trouble with making contact with about 50% of the stations that are attempted. Also, the receive capabilities and the attenuated/low background noise of the receiving stations are other important factors as well, which is a variability, of course. Please note: I've added the SOTABEAMS Microphone Compressor with really great results and I would go so far as to say that the gain added by this simple in-line modification has proven to be more beneficial/important to me than any bit of extra wattage that could be added to my 817 (BTW... modify the 817 to 10W? sacrilege!!!)... I'd really like for you to review and try out this neat mod. Also, your strategies and tips have helped me out, especially the one on contesting strategies. One other important note: The conditions may have changed by the time you started transmitting QRO... just a thought! Thanks again and 73! David, K7GYB!
Thank you for your comments and for sharing your acquired wisdom, David. I've never had the chance to operate at such an altitude. I really need to take a trip to the mountains. The SOTAbeams Microphone Compressor looks like a nice compact package. I'll have to put it on my wish list. I agree 100% with you in regard to changing conditions, especially at this point of the sunspot cycle. Take care my friend! 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
I would love for you to experience operating here in the North Cascades! If you ever have the time or the inclination, I'd be more than happy to host your visit here. There are at least half-a-dozen summits - like the ones I mentioned above - that we could either hike (depending on your ability) or drive to (via unimproved national forest trails, which can be interesting) all at altitude and camp overnight with tremendous views... just the awesome reception conditions alone makes each trip unique and memorable and keeps me going back for more. Take Care, K7GYB
Thank you for your kind offer, David. It's very tempting. Next week I am heading up north to do some backpacking and I'm thinking of taking my 817 with me. No mountains, but very beautiful country. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Hi Mike, thank you for your comment. Sounds like you might be talking about VHF and UHF FM. If so, I have to agree with you on a noticeable difference on a fringe repeater. As far as HF goes, as I noted in my "Does It Make Any Sense to Run Low Power In Large Contests?" video, I believe running QRP on a shortened compromise antenna is a great way to get discouraged with QRP. Take a bit of extra time, get a full sized antenna up high, and now you're going to see what QRP can truly do.
Thanks for the video. I was surprised you had that many more on the 20 watts, but maybe just as surprised you got the 10 on 5 watts. Living out here on the west coast I wonder if we would get the same results. Thanks again Tracy for the video.
Thanks so much for this. I only consider S units as a part of signal strength consideration. Yesterday I worked a guy in Argentina. His signal was so "powerful". I checked his S level and it averaged S5. Yep, "only" S5. Yet there was something about it. Its impossible so far to put my finger on it, but I had to turn the AF down a tad as he was hurting my ears. I do almost exclusively DX and have often worked guys and gals that barely even made S2. So as much as I love having the S meter as a gage, I think/know that its just a piece of the pie. One of my first ever contacts was in the Philippines. About 8000 plus miles. I did this with 5 watts using an end fed antenna. I don't know why I threw that in there. Anyhow, my belief is that a guy's signal can be "doubled" in strength WITHOUT having a higher S level reading. So I think the idea that you get very little by doubling your output power because it may only give a small S level increase is erroneous. My point in all this gibberish I've just spewed out? Yes, increasing your output power is a HUGE part of how well you're heard, and no, the small increase you get in S levels because of increased power DOES NOT correlate to How well you are being heard. NOT in the way some folks would try to make you believe. While you can do amazing things on five and less watts, you WILL be HEARD twice as well with twice the power. As a general rule. Did that make ANY sense at all?
I think that is great considering we are on a solar downswing. What was your elevation? I think location makes a big difference, but I think that is the the draw for QRP. Get out with less gear. I'm learning CW with the main purpose to run QRP and be able to make more contacts. It's hard to do a comparison like this. Different time, different stations on the other end. Lots of variables. It would be interesting to see video from the other end. A weak contact and then bump the power to 20 to hear the difference. Keep up the great work. Thanks for making the videos.
Hi Tom, thank you for your comments and for raising some really good points. Where I live, the region is fairly flat. I was on an escarpment which gave me a 300 foot increase over some of the surrounding terrain, which itself is about 300 feet above sea level.
There's a good chance that the primary factor was the number of people on the air at different times of day, or possibly variations in propagation. A more "scientific" approach would have been alternating between power levels at fixed intervals, like 15 minutes.
Very interesting. It's worth noting that prior to about 10 years ago, 100W was considered QRP for all practical purposes. Makes me smile to see my fellow QRPers today sneer, "oh sure, anybody can do this at 100W!" Back in the 90s I was routinely told you'd never have any fun in ham radio unless you had a linear and a tower. Meanwhile 100W has always been QRO for me; never operated higher than that. And I've had a ball, from 100W and down.
"It's worth noting that prior to about 10 years ago, 100W was considered QRP for all practical purposes." No. 'QRP' has been 5W since forever. Perhaps you were misled by some jokers with a kW.
@@JxH Yes. First, QRP has not been "5W since forever." QRP means _low power_. It's subjective and relative. The 5W thing is a contest rule. When I was a kid, nobody thought QRP was defined as 5W. When someone asked another station to QRP, it did not mean "transmit at 5W or less". There was a time when ham radio and contesting weren't synonyms. Further, I said "all practical purposes", not "by official policy". (Bearing in mind that 5W isn't QRP by any official policy either, except contesting.) So what I said above is accurate. In the 90s, 100W was considered low power. I wrote a QST article about assembling and operating a station at 100 barefoot watts as a matter of daily practice (it was called "100 Watts and Freedom") that blew the lid off that attitude; I was still receiving congratulation emails on it twenty years later. It was common knowledge in those days, and I was frequently informed, rather as you've just informed me that QRP means 5W, that it was impossible to operate ham radio at 100W. And now 100W is considered QRO. Because attitudes change.
I do 10 meters. When you hear those really loud booming stations you got to ask yourself how many people are trying to contact that station that you don't hear. I find it if you hear a station that's barely moving your meter those are the ones to go and make contacts with.
Please excuse my possibly dumb question of a newbie: You said: As a rule of thumb, one must quadruple the ERP to increase your S by one unit. That is 6 dB, I guess, or the quadruple. In terms of range, I have learnt, that it does not go that linear, but the range rises with only the square root of the ERP. So, your result of 10 versus 20 contacts seems consistent with that formula. I now am a bit irritated about the contradiction of these two "rules".
Thank you for your comment. I hope I don't seem flippant by saying this (for that is not my intention) but rules of thumb are always vague. Results may vary. If you can, do some experiments of your own and see what you get. That''s what I like to do.
Great video! I liked how you edited it all together and the experiment being practical was fun to follow. Thanks!
Thank you, Josh! Maybe see you at Dayton next year.
Hey Tracy! I have come back to this one again. Thanks for it. I love the fact you are truly outdoors and not just sitting in your vehicle in a parking lot. Everyone has their own style, I know, but I love the simple purity of what you have going. I love to turn my power down lower and lower to just enjoy the fun of low power radio. Have a great day! 73
Thank you very much for your comment, Bruce! 73 from VE3TWM.
I can remember before digital radios, 10 watts was considered QRP. At some point, 5 watts became popular for QRP. Even in my time, besides the improvements in receivers, there is now a better understanding of antenna theory and design.
Great station,😉😉😉🍻🍻🍻🍻🍻🍻🍻🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
There is no better understanding of antennas in Amateur radio. That is entirely oversimplified myth and fairy tales like tuners and chokes.
There is new science in antennas but its Quantum and Nuclear physics, far beyond any Amateurs reach.
As with your shack station, most important is antenna, then feed/coax, then wattage. I was out in a park yesterday cutting a new EFHW to be 1.04:1 at 7.125MHz for the upcoming field day and it really didn't seem to matter on my 705 if I was running 5 watts or 10 watts, I was easily making contacts (usually 58, 59, or at least 47 or better) from other parks upwards of 1000 miles away. I really haven't made too many coast to coast contacts on 5 watts SSB, but with my 20 watt G90, that isn't an issue, so to me, the difference between 5 and 10 watts isn't noticeable, but 5 watts vs 20 watts is to a degree.
Good video with results I would have expected. I run 5 watts but when no one hears me I move up to 10 watts and often get through. CW really helps with QRP success. 73, Dave N3CI
Thank you for sharing your experience, Dave. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
It's worth noting that many small radios are now being sold with 15 to 20 Watts for mobile use. That might be a sweet spot.
Good point!
Enjoyed your video! My 20 watt QRP is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Antenna not coming until March.
John 73 N5BYB
Thank you! Enjoy that new rig. 73 from VE3TWM.
That was a nice comparison between powers. I like QRO because I can usually get through, but I have to admit that QRP is a great test of skills. I might try it myself someday. Thanks for the video.
Give it a try, David. Turn down that RF power knob and surprise yourself! I once had a chat with a ham in Cuba. I was running 5 watts and he was running 100. When he heard I was QRP, he turned his power down to 5 watts and the QSO continued. He was blown away.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir How cool is that!
It was an experiment.
My own experience is QRP cw with 5 watts with good success. I can't compare it honestly.
Also I have no experience with SSB QRP but I was told the limit is 10 Watts. I was suprised to learn you can work SSB QRP with 5 Watts.
Fascinating result, Tracy, thanks! I think this is also a great demonstration of the fact that we need not run 'full' power all the time, and a great reminder for us to run only as much power as is necessary to make the contact. That courtesy guideline seems often to be forgotten. Btw, it's great to see you having such a great time out there despite the rain. Very inspiring! :-)
Thank you, Robert! I completely agree with your comments about running minimum power.
If you are equipped for bad weather, things get easier.
Enjoying going thru your older videos, a fine example of QRP operation and what the additonal power brings to the operation, both in benefits and costs (weight/power,etc). Thanks again and always motivating to make me want to go out and do more QRP !
Best rule to follow when operating QRP - use a resonant antenna. Avoid 9:1 ununs and use either resonant dipoles or EFHW - you need to get as much of that 5W radiated as you can. With EFHW you get the bonus of resonant, tuner (and loss) free multi-band operating. Great video. 73
I could not agree with you more, Tim. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
You seem knowledgeable on efhw. What bands should a 20m efhw resonate on in addition to 20m?
@@mssippijim 20 meters/66ft wire length is resonant on the 40m, 20m, 15m, and 10m bands. 10 meters/33ft wire length is resonant on the 20m and 10m bands. Wire lengths are + - a few feet depending on deployment/location factors.
I know I'm a little late to the show on this, but a great experiment and for me, not a surprising result. I can only run 10w as is my licence privilege, but I can make contacts all over the world when out /P using my FT857 and homebrew fan dipole for 10,20 & 40. Its always so satisfying to get that contact on 5 or 10w while others are chucking 100w TX. Of course the more power the likelihood of more contacts, but that's the limitations accepted by operators running QRP. Many thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's always nice to hear from you.
There's a local ham here that makes contacts with half watt CW, one end in the air and the other end soaked in the salt water under his dock.... there's QRP, and then there's the QRP that's "5W" or less. In many QSOs that I have made using 20W on LSB I've asked the other operator to spot me as I dropped the power to 10W vast majority of the time they don't hear a difference. But.... I found if I abandoned my EFHW and relied on a Bugcatcher with only a 15ft whip on a coil and using a tuner to match it. that extra ten watts seems to make voice a little more recognizable. I think its the antenna beyond anything else (the radiating element proportion to the rest of the antenna) that is what really makes a difference. If I had a beam on a rotator fifty feet in the air and propagation is good, I want to say with 5W can be heard anywhere in the world.
Good video, I still prefer 10W. its 10dB greater than 1W, 10dB less than 100W. Seems to strike a nice balance when you're hiking and setting up 66ft of wire and can't carry that much batteries for 100W.
73 de KN4GEI
Thank you for your comment, you raise some interesting points! 73 from VE3TWM.
Interesting video Tracy. As you say propagation changes, and I think sometime the first 5w of a 20w tx is just enough to get over the other stations noise level.
I have just ordered the qcx mini, so I will see for myself what 5w will do.
I have worked zl from the uk back in the day with 5w home brew, so we never know what might happen.
Great channel Tracy, keep up the good work.
73 zl3xdj.
I turned down the power on the Icom ic7300 to zero to do a little cw practice on field day ‘22 before calling stations. I was amazed to work two stations on Zero watts. Lol. Also logged a kp3 and a Kp4, but that was running 75 watts. Stranger things have happened I suppose.
I know this is 4 years old, and maybe someone has already mentioned it. You worked 5 watts first so when you worked 20 watts, you had to skip ones you worked before. If you had done the 20 watts first, dare say you may have gotten less than 10 Q’s with 5 watts. Nice experiment as I was considering a 20 watt rig. I struggle on SSB with 5 watts. 73’s De n5vwn
Good point, I hadn't considered that! 73 from VE3TWM.
Conclusion? 1000w will bring 7500 contacts.
The 5w did great - contests are a great time to try low power. It's more of a reward to break a pileup with 5w.
Second day of FD gets you heard, after most all the big stations have worked each other on multiple bands and are listening more for ANY station they've not put in the logs, and sleep deprivation. They can be rather worn and frazzled as I found them Sunday morning of FD on 10m this year.
100% agreed, Carson. People who reading this comment should check out Carson's RUclips channel, he's done some fascinating work over there.
Wade I like to get in a contest during the last hour or so when people are desperate for a new multiplier or new station. You can be on the receiving end of some decent pileups lol.
@@wadepatton2433 I work this way with my 20w manpack radio works great
Yes, 1000w could bring you 7500 contacts from local neighbours complaining of interference... if you are into that kind of thing ;-)
A very good video, I wish I had the wether with all to be able to make one. Five watts for one hour versus twenty watts for the same time, if I’m honest, I expected the result you got. From five watts to twenty watts, is a significant increase in power. In the many years I have partaken in qrp activity, which is over forty years. I have learnt many things. The biggest thing of all learnt, was patience. To operate qrp successfully, I discovered you need plenty of it. When I was first licensed, my first transceiver was a Yaesu FT 77S, with a maximum p.e.p. output of just ten watts. This was coupled via its antenna matching unit to a five band trapped vertical, as space in my back garden was at a premium. I used this setup for many years on s.s.b. and c.w. often competing with stations of much higher power. I made many contacts world wide, and have say, enjoyed every minute. Today, I run an early FT 817d, and usually an asymmetric dipole ( six to forty metres, with a converted Ampro 160 vertical for Topband ). The five watts from this setup is very modest in comparison to what I could run, but at the end of the day, it is a hobby, it has many variables, you just have to work out which is best fo you. Take care all, keep making those great videos. 73’s de Geoff.
For winter field day 2024 I decided to run exclusively QRP. I’ve never done QRP before. I made 39 contacts. Only 3 at 5 watts the first two hours. I doubled my power and made 36 more contacts. My antenna was a 20 foot dipole. I’ve never understood the point of QRP. After this weekend I’m going to do more QRP outdoors. I have an old Index Labs QRP++ I’m going to fire up this week and run it through an Alpha Loop. This should be interesting.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I'd be interested in hearing how high was the dipole, and what band(s) you were working on.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir True confession. On field day I was sick with the flu. I didn’t want to do field day. I just wanted to sleep. Field day is preparing for emergencies and in a real emergency I would be in front of the radio. My 20 meter dipole is up 25 feet and I turned my Icom IC-7300 down to ten watts. With my tuner, all of my activity was 15 and 20 meters.
Propagation can change somewhat over an hour ... did you consider smaller windows, like 15 minutes high then low? I will say that I find 20m easier to use QRP now that I live abroad than when I lived in North America surrounded by guys with kilowatts of power and multi-element beams versus my lowly dipole and 100 watts.
Thank you for your comment. I see the advantage of smaller time periods. That is an idea for next time.
Fantastic video! I just got back from a two week trip to Ontario where we were out in the middle of nowhere and made a ton of contacts at 25 watts from a Yaesu FT891. The antenna plays a big role too though - we were running a G5RV with the feedpoint about 100 feet above the ground. That certainly helped.
Sounds awesome, Chris! Where were you and how did you get the antenna up 100 feet?
Tracey,
I have had the same results in previous contests. Five watts will work but in working other non contest stations and comparing I found many times they didn't hear me or didn't want to try to dig me out of the mud but going up to 20 watts made the difference, fifty watts guaranteed the contact. I have been playing around with the Sunday night Bitx40 group and much of the time could not get through with the 5 - 7 watts put out by many Bitx40s (mine isn't built yet so I used my IC 7000 tuned down to 7 watts) but found I had to go to 30 - 50 watts to get through. 10 watts didn't make any difference either but 20 watts seemed to be the magic number to get through. In a contest the big guns with big antennas usually came back to me with 5 watts on my FT 817 but when there was no contest I wasn't heard or was ignored because there was no reason to try to go the extra mile to make the contact. My experience was with SSB. On CW I had better luck with 5 watts.
Great video with predictable results.....
Dave K8WPE
Thank you for adding your own experiences, Dr. Dave. I appreciate the information.
Interesting video. Lots of variables here though, an hour can make a difference on band conditions. Also a 5 watt rig running at full output is normally more efficient than a higher power rig running at a reduced power. Good video though.
I was out yesterday and today. These days were spent tuning up an EFHW to a matching transformer. I will use the antenna with both my QRO that I have used for years, and the QRP radio that I haven't quite taken the plunge and purchased. With a VNA the tuning on the EFHW now has a 1.2 SWR on 40m.
Great video...makes me want to get out on my deck and fire up my IC-705 and AlexLoop and see who I can contact on 5w. I have been using 10w, but only in high noise areas. Trying to get to a more remote location for some low noise levels and experience true QRP action!
Thank you! Now get out there 👍
A very interesting video ! I have used 817, HF90, 703+, 857D, KX3 as portable ; whatever power I had I could make contacts be it 5W or 100W (which i seldom used, it was more like 30 - 40W) ; however, think of the military, they are using 20 - 50W power outputs on their rigs which is not without good reason.
It also depends on the antenna, a lot. But, sometimes a good antenna and 5W are not enough and it can be frustrating (I have been through that) and sometimes you have not much time left beside the radio.
To me, a minimalist portable setup (made of my commercial / military rig HF90, a 8.4A LiFePo, an antenna analyzer, a coil and a military whip or a fiberglass pole and an end-fed) is what i enjoy, if i have contacts I am having fun (that's the point, no?). Power out of the HF90 is around 50W under 10 megs, decreasing to 35W on 20 meters and so on to 5W on 10m.
At least in SSB, 20 to 30W is comfortable enough to get contacts and not upset the other side who is struggling hearing us ; again, antenna has to be well tuned and well set-up for optimized results, and this applies to our portable stations too: "Your station is worth what your antenna worth" as per the french saying.
Thank you for sharing your experiences, Christophe. You have raised some very good points. The HF90 looks like a great rig.
I tried a similar experiment a while ago with my Yaesu FT450D. When somebody was struggling to copy me at 5 W, I then bumped to 20W and they positively confirmed that the signal was much stronger and easier to understand. The difference is noticeable only when you are just above (or under) the noise floor, otherwise it's no big deal.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Antonio.
I have had many QSOs at 5W CW on 40m back when the bands were hot (2010) and almost no QSOs, same band & mode, within the past three months with poor band conditions. Rigs were an FT817ND when conditions were good and a Xiegu X5105 recently. I am pretty sure that I could have gotten (or will get) better results from the Xiegu when conditions are good. That did not stop me, however, from plunking down the cash for the 20W Xiegu rig, which will be interesting to test once it arrives.
. . . And you're right: propagation changes over the two hours that you played the different power levels, the bands you used, the level of activity at that point in the contest, the number of mosquitoes and biting flies you had to fight, all that makes a difference and scrambles the results. A more interesting way to run it would be to have a beacon mode set up that switched between 5W & 20W within seconds on a band over a short period of time and then on another band. Back and forth a couple times. Which would have required more set up & other problems. Probably never get funding for that research project, at least not in today's Gringoland, science being vilified as it is of late.
. . . Nice video all the same. And the results you got are probably indicative of what a four fold difference in power really does mean in the real world. Thanks for the effort, Tracy. Hope to hear you on the air some time.
Nils/W8IJN
I've been torn between getting a Xiegu G90 for the extra power or a X5105 and add the power amp later on. I'm using both a loop antenna and and end fed. I'm mostly portable.
Thank you for your descriptive comment! I am wondering what your antenna system was when you were unable to make those CW contacts.
@@demiansims728 The G90 is a very superb radio (if you get one that works properly: mine has a faulty on/off switch and is being returned for an exchange). The X5105 is also a sweet radio. Mostly portable, I'd go X5105, even with only 5W. If you have the space & want to pack that much stuff, however, the G90 will get you contacts with more power. Both good radios.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir Antennas? Many ;-) Open wire fed 80m/40m dipole at 30ft tuned with a remote control Z-match; series feed capacitor tunes the tower on 40m; Hustler 4BTV vertical; homebrew 30m/17m vertical. One feedline from the house to the switch unit in an outbuilding from there to the various antennas. Come summer this will be simplified some (I hope).
As you told and said in the video there are a lot of things in play but I can reflect from my side conducting similar experiments. I'm also using a fiber mast for vertical support of a HyEndFed antenna. The 4-band portable MKII, 100 watt version, using a 38 feet tall fiber mast. So I can't speak for the 40 meter band so far with this antenna as I'm using 33 feet of wire to tune on 20 and 10 meters. 33 feet home brewed wire cut to length with antenna analyzer. Dip is spot on and so I do most of my dx on 20 meters with a full size have wave vertical. (A taller pole to erect 66 feet would not fit my motorcycle in a safe way).
I swapped a 10 watt radio for the new Yaesu FT-891, using a LIFEPO4 10000 mAh battery pack. Setup works outstanding. Comparing 5 watt QRP against 20 watts next using about 80 watts results in big differences. Reports from other hams confirm that signals are over 2 S-points stronger. QRP is a lot of fun but when I'm outdoors for only a few hours I like to make as much dx as I can. Being heard with 5 watts or 80 watts makes a lot of difference in SSB. in CW being heard with a smaller signal is easier than SSB. I'm so glad I got this little radio with great receiver and small size to pack being able to have power when needed.
A few weeks ago I set up the antenna near my car and set for 20 meter DX. I managed to work Hawai from Belgium on the 20 meter band cutting through the pile up with a bit of luck. Also 1500 miles to 2000 miles range dx seems to work first call always. My setup is almost like a basic base setup at home doing it in minutes.
For me personally, while QRP is fun especially in CW, when operating SSB using a 100 watt radio comes in handy to be heard in most cases. If you're interested you can find some pictures at www.qrz.com/db/ON4VP/p. Next to the HyEndFed I'm also using a I-PRO Traveler that's doing great also. It covers 5 bands and 40 with additional center piece, is also a vertical dipole but center fed and with capacity elements to reduce overall lenght.
I would advise to use LIFEPO4 cells and not the acid batteries. LIFE4PO keeps a longer higher voltage. They also can stand a high current. they also weight a lot less. I made a pack inside a sandwich box with battery management system inside. The pack can deliver up to 30 amps and last several hours using 75-80 watts. Info on this pack google "lifepo4 headway" or check this fellow: ruclips.net/video/SJGKuriGRok/видео.html
Thanks for the nice videos. 73, Phil
Hi Phil, thank you for sharing your experience. One day I will switch to the new batteries but for right now the cost effectiveness of the SLA's make up for the disadvantages. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
nicely presented Tracy, RESEARCH IS FUN!
I've been using a Yaesu 817 with gr8t success over the last year, feeding into a folded dipole on 80m 73s M0 HXQ
Thank you! Good job with the 817 👍 73 from VE3TWM.
Tracy, as you know we are talking an S unit between 5 and 20 watts but the extra power sometimes can help with weaker signals. QRP works for those that understand how to use their radios.
Good points, John.
I like the experiment you ran. I would love to find time to get out and set up like you have done here. Keep the videos coming!
Great video Tracey--just came across you channel and great subscribers!
This is pretty consistent with my experiments on CW. What I did, was to go from 10W down to 1-mW! We were amazed at how many contacts (CW) could be made at 1-mW. But, when the going got tough, we found that you needed to go to 10W to slug-it-out; with anything above that, just sounding nicer but not contributing to the QSO's bottom-line. This was using a non-resonant 102-foot Inverted-V dipole with 450-Ohm open feeders only at about 30-feet. These experiments were done multiple times with similar results.
So, I have permanently adopted that any (survival-style) QRP-rigs that I make must put out at least 10W on 12-Volts. With light weight LiFePO4 batteries, this is a cinch--no more heavy NiCd's Hi-Hi!
However, the majority of contacts can be easily made using 5-watts or less on CW. 73 to all!
I love that kind low-power experimentation! Thank you for sharing your results. 73 from VE3TWM.
Interesting. Perhaps another statistic to look at would be failed contacts. These would be when you put your call out and you were not heard. The difference between the 2 power levels might relveal something from that perspective.
73s
I like that idea. Thank you for your comment.
agreed with this, you'll make contacts with both 5/20W but your video starts with "some believe that these 5W is the difference between making the contact and not making it" well, if someone doesn't copy you, bump up to 10/20 and see if then they hear you. I usually do that the other way around. How low can I get until you can't hear me anymore and it's always different depending on the conditions. I went once to 1W and I was still 5/5 but sometimes at 50 they don't hear me anymore :/ That being said I enjoy all your videos, such a nice way to make them, bravo!
Like you said. Many variables. Time of day-more operators, grey line etc etc.
I like Jonathan idea. Make the contact w/ 20 and ask if they still copy at t5.
I've worked many field days. I know when I get tired, I don't "pull as many out of the mud" as when I'm fresh and go for the strong loud ones
There's really no way to discern between stations who couldn't hear and those who could but either didn't reply or did but couldn't be heard. I believe that higher power can help when band conditions are not favorable, but I found this video to be very inspiring because on Field Day I typically run my IC-7000 at 100 watts. With Winlink I drive my radio to about 30 watts, and even with a Buddipole I can still make contacts 500 miles away. Maybe one year I will step away from the club and operate as a QRP station on Field Day.
@@kd5you1 Sure there is. The way to discern if you're being heard or not is to find a websdr (sdr . hu) within the propagation range of your station and hear yourself and learn what actually happens. There's been no need to rely on anybody else's report for quite some time ...
Great comparison, Tracy. I appreciate your candor about the test results. Still very interesting.
Thank you, Dan!
With 6 dB more power there is no question you should make more contacts given an even distribution of operators. During my career at Motorola I've been fortunate to be involved in objective propagation testing on commercial systems. And I can tell you that 6 dB can make a substantial difference in area that your signal can be intelligibly received. I do enjoy your videos. I got my license last year partially because your videos helped motivate me to combine two of my interests, radio technologies and camping/backpacking. It's a fun hobby and I encourage you to keep experimenting. And keep videoing the process.
As to QRP, well I enjoy that as well. I find it challenging to try to work out the best antenna for a given location in the field. Seems you do as well.
73
Thank you for sharing that insight, that work must have been fascinating.
I appreciate you telling me that I helped inspire you to get your license. That is the best reward I could ever get from all the work I do to take my stuff outside and shoot the videos. Congratulations and have fun with the best hobby I know of.
That 6db is worth much more than just an "extra" S unit - 3db above the noise is enough to be the difference in being heard. Always thought the power vs S-units comparison trivialized the real difference - especially below 10watts. ;-)
Interesting experiment, Tracy! Actually 5 watts wins if you are operating under ARRL rules, because of the power multiplier. Also assuming two identical stations, one running 5 w and the other 20 w. The power multiplier for the 20 w station is 2 (same as up to 150 watts) while the multiplier for 5 w is 5. Therefore the 20 w station garnered 40 points, while the 5 w station garnered 50 points. Does this make me an anorak?🤣
That's a great point you've raised! 73 from VE3TWM.
I’m interested in the results of making a contact at 5 watts get a signal report, then switch to 20 watts and get another signal report from the same contact. I would bet the audio quality report would not be different just the S report.
I've done it multiple times. The results are often just as you indicate. Give it a try!
Tracy always love your videos I did not expect to see that big of a stretch between 5 Watts and 10 Watts keep up the testing I love watching all your videos they are very informative and fun to watch I have the FT-817 ND and love the radio before I purchased it all my friends told me not to buy the radio because it is only 5 watts, have found that I have become a better operator because it requires more knowledge of antenna systems and how they work and has bettered my antenna building skills so I thankyou for your videos for they have made me a better operator 73's and stay safe out their.
Thank you! I'm really happy to hear you are getting the most out of your 817. 73 from VE3TWM.
Please please please update this video with the average distance of the 5 watt contacts and the average distance of the 20 watt contacts. This will greatly add value to your experiment and speak volumes.
That's an interesting, thought, Matt. I'll consider it.
I will comment more on your video delivery rather than the comment. Very smooth and professional - fun to listen to. 73, Paul
Much appreciated, Paul. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Given all the QRM etc on field day, I think 10 contacts on 5 watts in an hour is totally respectable. Another great video! Thanks Tracy.
Thank you, Neil!
Valuable anecdotal evidence for sure. Channels like this one have inspired me . . . was able to call with "/P" for the first time just today (using a home brew LiFePO4 battery modeled after OH8STN's builds). Also experienced my first overseas contact from Eastern Pennsylvania, so a pretty satisfying outing. 73 de AB3ZI
Well done, John! 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Very interesting. It would also be interesting to know what the difference was in power consumption from battery, between the 5W and 20W use. 73 ZS6AKW
Great point and 73 from VE3TWM!
Very good experiment! I have always been curious just how much difference 5 watts vs. 10 watts would make. I too have an FT-817nd and have considered purchasing an IC-703 for the extra 5 watts on SSB. It would have been interesting to also run the same test on CW. Good work Tracy!
Thank you for your comment!
I think there's something to be said for qrp. I think it make you refine operations. I could see in a real emergency you might be lucky to have qrp and then having previously learned to optimize the antenna system might make all the difference.
I was listening to 20 meters the other day and J69Z calling cq from St.Lucia.
I answered (at 500 watts) and we traded signal reports (59 both ways) Then he said he was making contacts as a memorial to his late friend who died saving his dog on a frozen pond K3LP who was a qrp enthusiast. To participate in the memorial I went qrp (10 watts) same as he was. It was satisfying and nice to honor his friend. Like it says- Use no more power than what is needed to make the contact. See the RUclips he made J69Z/W9DLP. It was fun to watch the video and actually see both sides of a qso 73
Thank you for your very interesting comment, Dave. That's a tragic story about K3LP, may he rest in peace.
I am looking forward to getting out to a spot on my land that will be a half mile away from any power lines and seeing what I can reach and receive on HF. I don't have a portable rig but I think my IC-7300 will work for me.
Sounds like a great experiment!
A very interesting video, especially since I usually work with 20W on CW using my Ten Tec Argonaut V. 73 de Doug VA3DM
Hi Doug, nice rig that Argo V. Must be a lot of fun operating it. 73 from VE3TWM.
Hi Tracy.....Just found your first class videos and I bought an ICOM IC 703 after watching you with yours...Can you or have you done a video of operating your YAESU FC-707 please..................................73;s and stay safe................
Thank you, Robert! I will do a demo of the 707 in an upcoming video, stay tuned! 73 from VE3TWM.
Hi there. That was of great interest to me due to the fact I'm Ex. R.Sigs and was use to luging a A13 H.P manpack rig plus personel gear around the Malaysian jungle along with a load of Light Infantry walers cutting their way through the jungle. They use to moan like hell that I was never sent forward to chop until the R.S.M gave the ring leader the chance to carry my radio while I got the chance to go up front. I jumped at the chance and was down against a tree and out of the harness in a flash. The guy could not get up off his arse with the rig on. I got called back and told him in no unceartain terms what I thought of him. Any how besides the point of how bloody heavy the A13 H.P manpack with all the necessary gear was. It only had 5 watts output. CW or AM.Possibly 20-25 Watts output with the H.P amp working. That used batteries like they were going out of style and realy needed some help by a bod winding the handle of the screw-in a tree charger. It is a bit hard to send CW while winding the charging handle round. (They could have developed a foot pedled charging system.) Without a half efficient antenna system, there was no way I was going to get any traffic through to HQ Singapore. I did have a go on std. power but got sick of being requested IMI. Our Battalion RSM did me a big favour. We were at about 600ft hovering to come into land in a Belverdear twin rotar chopper. We were getting the same sence you would get in a dryer on fast spin. The RSM told me to pass him my radio, so I could jump out has we got near to the ground and get the radio off of him. He was not strapped in. Lucky for him the RAF handler was. Due to the weight of the thing again, it took the RSM by supprise and he nearly went flying out of the side exit. He was grabbed but the radio went on its way down to ground. When we did get down I ran to my radio to see what damage had been done. It seemed ok but has I switched it on it made a rude noise at me and the meters sort of went tick -tock and back to zero. I jumped up onto the steps of the chopper pilots entrance and signaled that I needed to talk. I told the pilot that the radio was a right-off and could he please signal to HQ for me to get a full replacment by air lift. All good stuff. I eventually got a brand new A13 H.P radio. It was just as heavy. 73 de John - G0WXU.
John, thank you very much for sharing your experiences. I really enjoyed reading that. You must have been in tremendous physical and mental condition to carry that load, coupled with the stress that goes along with military service.
Thank you again and 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
😊 From 9w2fo.
Thank you Tracy for the reply. I just wish that I was half as fit as I used to be back then 50 years ago. Before then, when I was in "Boys Service" on "Adventure Training in the Welch Mountains, a bunch of us young lads use to hang back so that the sergeant instructors would shout at us to get a move on. We did get a move on and use to double past everyone. We never heard the calls to stop, so just kept going. Up and down mountains till we were first to the pickup vehicle at the end of the slog. The tea and soupe were still hot when we got there Hi Hi. That was when we would really stretch the limits of the "88 Manpack radios. They were a low band VHF ,xtal controlled tranciever. I think only supposed to communicate at Platoon /Section level for a range of approx 4 miles max. We would go up to the mountain tops and make a voice relay chain link up to "Snowdon" when possible from Tonfanau, Merioneth. Thank's again and keep up the good work. de - John -73 - G0WXU.
@@johncliff5417 Even a Quarter as fit as when I used to go up Snowdon on Boxing day would be great...very well done Sir.
@@johncliff5417 The days of love and laughter lol.......... A41, carry frame and spare battery, let alone all my personal kit as an Infantryman are times to remember indeed. The clansman introduction in the early eighties was a huge jump, both in weight and TX output.
Great Tracy Use mainly CW I also use the FT897 but with my FT817 on 5 watts CW home made dipoles or half wave aerials worked over 100 countries using 5 Watts alone But I think A lot depends on you state of mind 5 Watts will do it if you believe in it and is a lot more satisfying .. .. Trig
I think you are on to something, Trig. Thank you for the interesting comment!
Interesting concept. Even though there are multiple variables occurring the data is still interesting. Thanks for giving us this information.
You're welcome and thank you for leaving a comment!
Certain digital modes (as well as CW of course) can really make QRP shine. Olivia is my favorite for poor conditions.
Good point, thank you. I should check out Olivia someday.
It's a tall order to correlate evidence that high power equals more contacts with this kind of test because HF has far too many time, operator skill/behavior (on both ends), atmospheric/ionospheric, location, and weather based variables.
A scientific check would be to have a 5w and a 20w transmitter, both transmitting at the same time, with identical antennas, using WSPR or FT8 and use WSPRNet and/or PSKReporter to cross-analyze which had more receptions or more distant receptions. That's one really awesome thing about online automatic receivers, is that we can now empirically verify the differences between antenna A and antenna B.
However, what this kind of experiment proves is that if *feels* like more power actually made more contacts. It may be a placebo, or it may be real, but it's a good indication that it may be true!
Thank you for adding your thoughts. After many years of working contests, I have seen hour to hour propagation changes firsthand. I like your proposal that a placebo effect could be in part responsible.
Thanks for the test. My first transmitter was a Heath DX-20. It was supposed to have 50 watts input, so I figure about 20 watts into the antenna. I never felt that my rig was under powered. DE K8QLW/4/qrp
Great relevant experience, thank you for sharing! 73 from VE3TWM.
Good comparison. As you said so many variables but you do what you can to find out for yourself. I like you prefer to test a theory rather than listen to others argue a point. Cheers Brett
Thank you, Brett!
This is great - well presented and well operated experiment. For me, this is what real ham radio is about - scientific experimenting. Any fool can buy a powerful rig and spend a fortune on an aerial but the real pleasure is getting contacts on flea power and an improvised aerial. Thanks for posting - interesting results - upping the poundage does not result in a dramatic rise in contacts. I must go mobile more. 73s M6 OEQ
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, David. We think alike. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Nice work!
On a good day, there's not terribly much difference between 5 watts and running 20 watts on the bands. The most amusing for me is working 'Inter G' (nationwide around the UK) on 40 meters; where you're giving 5/9 signal reports and they can't believe your simple FT817 running into an inverted vee linked dipole is doing so well versus their G5RV setups using hundreds of watts.
Best contacts so far for me has been Svalbard, Asiatic Russia (Ural Mountains), and New York off just 5 watts. 73 de M6GOF.
Those are impressive contacts. Thank you for sharing your experience. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
When working QRP using CW makes a big difference. I believe 5W CW is as effective as 20W in SSB. And if you do not know CW, give PSK31 a try. I have made some amazing QRP contacs using PSK31.
But you have to remember, the rules of the contest decide what is QRP and what not.
But modifying a QRP rig from 5 to 10W does not make so big of a difference.
Thank you for your comment!
Great test Tracy. I think when the sun spot cycle turns back up, the results might be different. I think I would argue 20w isn't QRP. But, it was still a good test. Thanks for the post!
You are completely correct in that 20 watts is not QRP. And your point about trying this again at a Sunspot cycle peak is 100% accurate in my estimation. Thank you for watching!
Nice video sir. I share your interest in portable operation. My operating conditions are actually about the same as yours from the perspective of the 897, the vertical antenna, and an interest in using minimum RF power. Given the current solar cycle I too have found that the little extra bump in power from 5 to about 20, when operating SSB, is significant (while remaining battery friendly). 73s AC7AX
Thank you for your comment, Jim. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Thanks for your great videos Tracy, I work a lot of outdoor HF radio as I have an S 8+ noise problem from power poles nearby. Keep them coming Tracy. 73, Graeme VK3PGK
Thank you, Graeme! Sounds like your home QTH and mine are similar in that regard. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Were bumping up the power from 5 whiskeys to 20 watts helps is when one is just under the noise ,it seems it helps at that barely hear you point 😊
Eagerly waiting on my FX-4CR so I can play radio outdoors more easily! It runs 20W, so I'll see what I can do with it.
Hi I'm new to the hobby! Always mucked about with 40 channel CB's but recently bought my 1st 10 metre radio! I'll be watching more of your videos!👍
Welcome to the hobby, we're glad you're here!
Thank you for this video. IMO there is a good reason, why mil grade manpack HF radios have 20-25 watts output for SSB. For communicating in the 0 to 1200 km (or 0-700 miles) coverage range in SSB, that is the most economical power. In CW it is 5 watts. Of course, it is possible to work far DX on the upper bands also with 5 watts in SSB, but for the not so far DX contacts at lower bands (80m/60m/40m/30m/20m) for SSB choose 20 and for CW (or soundcard digital modes) I would always use 5 watts. vy73 from Hamburg/Germany, Dietmar, DL4HAO
Thank you for your comments and advice, Dietmar. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Thanks for the nice video! ;-) Would be very interesting real-time A/B comparison 5 vs.20W with the worked stations. Fast switching between two radios with antenna switch. ;-) 73, Paul.
Interesting idea! 73 from VE3TWM.
Hi Tracy,very good video.I found that running 5 watts on 20,15 meters many hams use beans so they hear me better and vice versa.Ilike QRP but at times I My run up to 50 watts and the only time I ran a full 900 watts was doing emergency traffic. Ham radio is one heck of a beautiful hobby. Many thanks for an excellent video.73 BOB AF2DX
Thank you for leaving a nice comment and sharing your experience, Bob. Completely agree with you in regard to the hobby. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Of course over 2 hours propagation could shift and stations on the air can be different.... The extra power is worth maybe an S unit? Could be enough difference in some situations.
Good points.
For a proper experiment there would have to be two stations operating simultaneously with identical antennas but at different power levels. It is fairly certain that there will be situations in which one S point has made all the difference. I recall a VHF contact where I went fro 5 watts to 25 watts and that made the difference between the other station copying perfectly and just getting mostly noise. It will depend on the noise floor at the receiving station and the signal strengths of competing stations in a pile-up situation.
Tracy, Thanks for a real world demo of ham radio. I enjoy seeing what others can do and yeah you can make contacts with 20 watts as you have proven. Nice clean install out in the field as well
Thank you, John!
In 1979 I mowed a lot of lawns to save up to buy a TenTec Century 21 which claimed was 70 watts input CW - Only, which in real practice was more like 50 watts input with about 20 watts output on the higher banks. I got WAS & WAC easily and probably 50-60 DXCC Countries without even setting foot on 20 meters before I upgraded to General in 1981. I had a serious motorcycle accident in 1982 and during my year of recovery, I focused on 2M SSB/CW as there were a lot of AU and TROPO openings. After marriage and moving to the city, I eventually got 2M VUCC #127 and had a ball. My HF rig then was a Heathkit HW-9 which I always ran at 1W CW into a rotatable dipole at 40 feet and a 3-element Yagi at 50 feet. Those two antennas seemed like a 20-watt amplifier based on the jump in contacts I received, I got WAS QRP in 18 months and I didn't even worry that the award was for running 5 watts instead of 1 watt, LOL. I cherish those memories and after being inactive for 20 years I am building a complete Tuna Tin 2 station for my POTA activations. The Super Tuna claims 2-watts of output Rockbound with a small VXO so I will again be focused on antennas when I get going on my hunting and activations, although by now I am a full-time RVer so I will get a chance to operate in a wide variety of mountain and saltwater environments seasonally between my work and play destinations. If I only knew as a Novice in 1979 that I would invent ways to have so much fun with my homebrew rigs rather than the $6000 ones the magazines promote to me, LOL. Cheers es 72, Dave - KU9L
Thank you for sharing your experience, Dave! 72 from VE3TWM.
Yeah! Another left handed ham. : ) WD4DCW. I am really thinking about getting a QRP rig. This video addressed my concerns about low power rigs. Thanks.
You're welcome! Don't let those who have never given QRP a fair shake dissuade you. The evidence is there for those who look for it.
A very interesting and nice experiment but not too fair I think. The propagation can differ from hour to hour, but if the stations would give you report for 5 and 20 watts at the same time... Once I made the experiment while cqww working on 100 watt transceiver (with 70 in ssb) and a 10 watt transceiver with amp (about 100-120 watts in ssb) and I it gave me twice better result, stations gave a report of 10 dB increase. And some times the modulation rules, some stations with S-5 heard better than stations with S-9+.
Thank you for adding your thoughts, Aidar.
Like you said, too many variables to draw a conclusion. I liked the video in spite of this because you're getting out and on the air and sharing it with us. For that alone, you deserve to know the appreciation we have!
PS Nice rig!
I love it, could watch this kind of stuff for hours.
I like doing this stuff also, but with all kinds of different antennas and checking my signals
in PSK Reporter running FT-8.
Thank you for your comment!
I just want to say with this one how much I appreciate your channel.
Thank you very much!
Well depends on who you ask, I run QRP all the time, and I was told by many that QRP on CW is 5 watts and 10 watts on SSB. 73 W2DWL
No. The olde rule of thumb was that doubling pwr gains one S unit. Quad gains two S units.
Just studied for the General exam. Can confirm one S unit is 6dB or 4x power difference.
That's a fair test and pretty much shows what we all know. More power means more contacts. The 6dB difference between 5W and 20W is one signal strength point and that's the difference between being just under or just over the noise floor. 6dB can genuinely and often be the difference between making the contact or not. I find on CW, if the other station is struggling to hear my 30W because of high noise or whatever, winding the rig up to 60W is enough to save the contact. Even that 3dB advantage is useful. QRP is fun. I used to milliwatt on SSB into Europe from the UK. That was great fun. Sometimes though you need that extra few dB's and we shouldn't be ashamed of it, not even those dyed in the wool QRPers.
He should have shown the amount of missed contacts for a better perspective.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
What I love about RUclips is even videos a couple of years old are often very helpful. Thanks for sharing your excellent video and experiment. I was curious what are you using for your tall mast as I've been looking for a nice tall telescoping fiberglass or push up mast for my current 66' EFHW antenna with a 49:1 matching transformer.
Thank you very much for your comment! In this video I used a 15-meter (50 foot) DX-Wire mast.
Some of the QRP folks really crank it down into the milliwatts. Gotta love a challenge.
Wade Patton, anything below one watt is called QRPp and it is absolutely shocking how well you can do. I regularly work 500-1,000 miles or more on 995 milliwatts CW. Give it a try.
But I will venture to bet it was using CW, not SSB.
Oh yeah, everything is easier on CW. But my first ever QRP experience was when two of us turned down to our minimum power (less than 4watts out), for less coverage (less ears), and a station broke in from over 700 miles away. We were on AM, and flabbergasted. Later I got a ticket and learned about propagation and such.
Oy-sm 500mW and a wire antenna. It was a ssb contact. Back in 2010 iirc. :)
So qrp is very possible, Although a bit tough with the current solar cycle. I normally run 10 to 15 w QRo from my kx3, and often turn down the power to QRP and occasional QRPp.
De oy1r/mm
@@warplanner8852 I can regularly make QRPp contacts in AM mode at 1000 miles under current solar conditions using 0.5 watt and a very efficiently grounded homebrew vertical.... I can't imagine what distances my 0.5 watt will give me at solar maximum??... and yes I did say good old AM mode, not SSB or CW
I really enjoy QRP. And being low power, I usually home brew or build kits at this power level. It's so rewarding to make contacts on something you built yourself! So my opinion is not to modify commercial gear. If you start modding, there are always more pitfalls down the road that also need consideration in a circuit! (One thing is shortening its life. Even with vacuum tube circuits, the amount of people who don't bias their tubes is astonishing).But rather just spend a bit more money for a higher powered rig and build yourself a QRP field rig just for the purpose! My recent Elecraft K2 build was tremendously enjoyable, very educational and a lot of fun! Soldering every connection myself and understanding how each section of the rig works, makes operating it a more fulfilled experience.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
I would like to see more 20 watt all mode radios designed for portable operation, like backpacking. 20-25 watts is a great power level for portable operation. A 20 watt version of the KX series by elecraft would be the bee's knees.
it seems like 20W is the sweet spot per power draw as well..
I agree, 20 -25 watts is plenty for portable operations with a decent antenna.
Cool video. I wonder how many more contacts I'd be able to make during an hour, since I'm pretty sure that twenty would keep me pretty busy. Perhaps I'll try an hour during a contest at 20W and another at 100W for one hour to see the difference.
Give it a shot!
Thanks for taking time to make a great video... Ilike ten watts ...seems to work for me...and it takes just a little more power out of the battery.
Thank you, Bob! It's amazing to me how many hams just don't realize what can be done with lower power.
Great info. Very helpful to the new general (US) licensee. Nice portable setup, too. Taking notes across the pond in NY.
Thank you for your comment!
Increasing power from 5watts to 10watts is 3dbd gain.
You must double power for 3db gain.
So say i have a 100 watt transceiver. I make a contact at 5watts but conditions are degrading. I will go up in 3db increments until we have until he has good copy.
So for example.
5>10
10>20
20>40
40>80 or just max 100watts.
If i had a 1500 watt amp it would go like this..starting from 100watts.
100>200
200>400
400>800
800>1500
Hi Tracy. QRP still works. It is a bit challenging and here lies the fun. I really like QRP. Success has also a lot to do with the antenna used (this is the key), the band conditions, the noise floor at the receiving end and how many kilowatts are trying to get the same station as you are. I agree that, sometimes, a bit higher power is required but I do not see the need for 1k watts, or even 100W for that matter, unless this is for emergency communications.
Anyway Tracy, another great video which is inspiring an re-enforces my enjoyment of QRP .
Best 73 de Chris VE2MW
Thank you, Chris. I agree with your QRP comments 100%. It makes my day to know that my videos have helped you out.
73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Nice video, I enjoy the content on your channel. I have an 817nd and have found that with about 30 to 40 watts on an amp the audio improves but I still get a kick out of the 5 watts WOW factor when I get a real 5-9 report from 2,000 miles away. Keep up the great work!
Interesting comment about your experience with the amp. Thank you, Eric!
Nice demo. Conditions change over time, had it been on one band, I wouldn't have taken it seriously, but using this composition of lower and higher HF gives some idea.
Thank you.
Hi Tracy! Another relevant and informative video on QRP. Thank You!! Another important factor is elevation... I have had really good success when I operate at altitude of significance (above 4000ft.) and have no trouble with making contact with about 50% of the stations that are attempted. Also, the receive capabilities and the attenuated/low background noise of the receiving stations are other important factors as well, which is a variability, of course. Please note: I've added the SOTABEAMS Microphone Compressor with really great results and I would go so far as to say that the gain added by this simple in-line modification has proven to be more beneficial/important to me than any bit of extra wattage that could be added to my 817 (BTW... modify the 817 to 10W? sacrilege!!!)... I'd really like for you to review and try out this neat mod. Also, your strategies and tips have helped me out, especially the one on contesting strategies. One other important note: The conditions may have changed by the time you started transmitting QRO... just a thought! Thanks again and 73! David, K7GYB!
Thank you for your comments and for sharing your acquired wisdom, David. I've never had the chance to operate at such an altitude. I really need to take a trip to the mountains.
The SOTAbeams Microphone Compressor looks like a nice compact package. I'll have to put it on my wish list.
I agree 100% with you in regard to changing conditions, especially at this point of the sunspot cycle.
Take care my friend! 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
I would love for you to experience operating here in the North Cascades! If you ever have the time or the inclination, I'd be more than happy to host your visit here. There are at least half-a-dozen summits - like the ones I mentioned above - that we could either hike (depending on your ability) or drive to (via unimproved national forest trails, which can be interesting) all at altitude and camp overnight with tremendous views... just the awesome reception conditions alone makes each trip unique and memorable and keeps me going back for more. Take Care, K7GYB
Thank you for your kind offer, David. It's very tempting. Next week I am heading up north to do some backpacking and I'm thinking of taking my 817 with me. No mountains, but very beautiful country. 73 from Tracy VE3TWM.
Having a 66 feet long antenna helps! Try a test between a five watt HH , and one running 10 watts, on the supplied antennas.
Hi Mike, thank you for your comment. Sounds like you might be talking about VHF and UHF FM. If so, I have to agree with you on a noticeable difference on a fringe repeater.
As far as HF goes, as I noted in my "Does It Make Any Sense to Run Low Power In Large Contests?" video, I believe running QRP on a shortened compromise antenna is a great way to get discouraged with QRP. Take a bit of extra time, get a full sized antenna up high, and now you're going to see what QRP can truly do.
@@OutdoorsOnTheAir Please tell us more about your 66' antenna.
Thanks for the video. I was surprised you had that many more on the 20 watts, but maybe just as surprised you got the 10 on 5 watts. Living out here on the west coast I wonder if we would get the same results. Thanks again Tracy for the video.
Thank you, Gordon!
Thanks so much for this. I only consider S units as a part of signal strength consideration. Yesterday I worked a guy in Argentina. His signal was so "powerful". I checked his S level and it averaged S5. Yep, "only" S5. Yet there was something about it. Its impossible so far to put my finger on it, but I had to turn the AF down a tad as he was hurting my ears.
I do almost exclusively DX and have often worked guys and gals that barely even made S2. So as much as I love having the S meter as a gage, I think/know that its just a piece of the pie.
One of my first ever contacts was in the Philippines. About 8000 plus miles. I did this with 5 watts using an end fed antenna.
I don't know why I threw that in there.
Anyhow, my belief is that a guy's signal can be "doubled" in strength WITHOUT having a higher S level reading.
So I think the idea that you get very little by doubling your output power because it may only give a small S level increase is erroneous.
My point in all this gibberish I've just spewed out?
Yes, increasing your output power is a HUGE part of how well you're heard, and no, the small increase you get in S levels because of increased power DOES NOT correlate to How well you are being heard. NOT in the way some folks would try to make you believe.
While you can do amazing things on five and less watts, you WILL be HEARD twice as well with twice the power. As a general rule.
Did that make ANY sense at all?
I don't necessarily agree, but these are interesting thoughts. Thank you for your comment!
I agree totally with your analogy.
I think that is great considering we are on a solar downswing. What was your elevation? I think location makes a big difference, but I think that is the the draw for QRP. Get out with less gear. I'm learning CW with the main purpose to run QRP and be able to make more contacts. It's hard to do a comparison like this. Different time, different stations on the other end. Lots of variables. It would be interesting to see video from the other end. A weak contact and then bump the power to 20 to hear the difference. Keep up the great work. Thanks for making the videos.
Hi Tom, thank you for your comments and for raising some really good points.
Where I live, the region is fairly flat. I was on an escarpment which gave me a 300 foot increase over some of the surrounding terrain, which itself is about 300 feet above sea level.
There's a good chance that the primary factor was the number of people on the air at different times of day, or possibly variations in propagation. A more "scientific" approach would have been alternating between power levels at fixed intervals, like 15 minutes.
Very interesting. It's worth noting that prior to about 10 years ago, 100W was considered QRP for all practical purposes. Makes me smile to see my fellow QRPers today sneer, "oh sure, anybody can do this at 100W!" Back in the 90s I was routinely told you'd never have any fun in ham radio unless you had a linear and a tower. Meanwhile 100W has always been QRO for me; never operated higher than that. And I've had a ball, from 100W and down.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Rob!
"It's worth noting that prior to about 10 years ago, 100W was considered QRP for all practical purposes." No. 'QRP' has been 5W since forever. Perhaps you were misled by some jokers with a kW.
@@JxH Yes. First, QRP has not been "5W since forever." QRP means _low power_. It's subjective and relative. The 5W thing is a contest rule. When I was a kid, nobody thought QRP was defined as 5W. When someone asked another station to QRP, it did not mean "transmit at 5W or less".
There was a time when ham radio and contesting weren't synonyms.
Further, I said "all practical purposes", not "by official policy". (Bearing in mind that 5W isn't QRP by any official policy either, except contesting.)
So what I said above is accurate. In the 90s, 100W was considered low power. I wrote a QST article about assembling and operating a station at 100 barefoot watts as a matter of daily practice (it was called "100 Watts and Freedom") that blew the lid off that attitude; I was still receiving congratulation emails on it twenty years later.
It was common knowledge in those days, and I was frequently informed, rather as you've just informed me that QRP means 5W, that it was impossible to operate ham radio at 100W.
And now 100W is considered QRO. Because attitudes change.
I do 10 meters. When you hear those really loud booming stations you got to ask yourself how many people are trying to contact that station that you don't hear. I find it if you hear a station that's barely moving your meter those are the ones to go and make contacts with.
Good comment. I once worked a station from Africa on 15m that was not moving the S meter at all.
Please excuse my possibly dumb question of a newbie: You said: As a rule of thumb, one must quadruple the ERP to increase your S by one unit. That is 6 dB, I guess, or the quadruple. In terms of range, I have learnt, that it does not go that linear, but the range rises with only the square root of the ERP. So, your result of 10 versus 20 contacts seems consistent with that formula. I now am a bit irritated about the contradiction of these two "rules".
Thank you for your comment. I hope I don't seem flippant by saying this (for that is not my intention) but rules of thumb are always vague. Results may vary. If you can, do some experiments of your own and see what you get. That''s what I like to do.
Great channel! I just got a Yaesu FT-818 and am working on getting a good QRP setup together, so your videos are really helpful! 73!
Thank you! Have fun with your new 818.