We Need To Talk About Amp Plugins (theres a problem)
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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A few weeks ago, I was on a new years live stream with @Johnnathancordy and he brought up something that I hadn't heard before regarding amp plugins, so in today's stream we're going to figure out how I've been using plugins incorrectly and how to fix it
Check out John Cordy's video on the subject here:
• The PROBLEM with Plugi...
And shoutout to Ed S for putting in the leg work to figure all this out
• How to set the optimal...
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Wasn't expecting Ed S' video to reach such a wide audience and to see people finally get it, but it's a pleasant surprise to say the least.
Thank goodness I figured this out last month
OMG! This is a game changer. I never would have thought to keep the preamp level all the way down - I kept it low - but not that low. Tried it out and everything sounds and feels better. And I thought it was pretty good before! (Neural DSP Imperial MK II like you)
If guitarists would spend more time researching how does DAWs and production works the community wouldn't have had this problem, Boosting the signal with the interface preamp just messes with the transience that the plugin is trying to put on The Sound, u boost output NOT input, I had a friend who had a fractal unit you always used to complain that he had to re adjust his patches when he went live, I saved him hours of time when I came to his home studio 1 day to discover he had his fractal plugged into the Mike triams with them cranked at 12 o'clock, I have an interface that has 2 inputs on the back that don't have Mic preamps I plug my fractal into that so the tone I dial in in my room is the same I get on stage
So I should set the input volume on my sound interface all the way down and then raise the input volume on the plugin instead? Thanks
@@RenoFriends Start with preamp all the way down and input at zero - then adjust to make sure you have enough signal. Lot of factors involved. With Neural DSP plug-ins they are much better with interface gain at zero but Positive Grid plug-in needs some gain from the interface for example.
@@johnplunkett2004 Thanks for the reply man. I will then try to set my input level on my Motu interface to 0 and raise the input level on Neurals plugin if I understand it correctly
So in resume, just adjust the input of the plugin to -16dbfs aprox for real input response. In my opinion the DI should be still gain-staged because its an audio interface doing A/D conversion.
Please explain?
@orModanica The preamp of the audio interfaces are not designed to emulate a AMP input. They are optimised to Analog to digital conversion. By gain-staging i mean: optimising the signal input gain so its not so low so that is not close to noise floor, neither too high to saturate or clip the converters of the interface. This will ensure the best audio quality to everything you record (from mics, to instruments)
So, if you want to optimise the input gain for the amp sim, with proper prior gain-stagin, you should rollback the input gain of the plugin accordingly to the output of you instrument.
In example: i tend to use -10Dbfs for HIGH output guitars
or -16Dbfs or less for vintage output guitars
The thing is, everyone is crrazy for this topic because no one really realized that is harder to fine tune the gain of an AMP sim if the input is too hot. Specially of you are one of the "edge of break-up" guys.
If you ever tried STL tones plugins, you will notice that they have a "proper amp input" optimizer tool", that turns down the gain accordly to the play AND type of output of your guitar.
@@blacksaona thx man! Do you think if amp sim makers published the reference signal level they designed their plugins around it would help take out the guess work? Or are you more in the trust your ears camp?
@@ImpostorModanica i think it is more important for the low gain amp sims. The edge of breakup its a sensible and important point because it affects how we perform. If it has a bad setup, we will get frustrated for sounding like we want and thats why most oldschoolers prefer real amps
i'm am furious(ly happy) about how much this just changed my toans. like, i always felt good about it, but it always just felt "close enough." this fixed a lot of eq problems, really tighened up the sound and made it feel real for me. kinda wish i'd known this sooner. *** MOTU M2 input gain at 0. into logic with helix imput boosted to 4.5. ***
Oh, man. This fixed so many issues for me. I appreciate all the contributors.
This is good stuff for guitar community because most aren’t experienced with gain staging for optimal levels. In the pro audio world we take this for granted but it definitely is crucial to get the optimal gain structure for your guitar riffin. As you succinctly put it, it’s like putting a boost in front of your amp. That’s 100% 💪🎸
I find this so hilarious because I've been trying to tell guitarist for years but they wouldn't listen to me, I was fortunate because I had been hardcore learning production for 2 years so when I went to modelers and digital I had NONE of the problems other guitarists were having, If guitarists had read 1PDF about producing they would have known that you can't treat a The same way you treat a microphone, Turning up the preamp on the interface just takes away from the transients that the amp sim is trying to put on the signal, I purposefully bought an interface that has 2 extra inputs on the back with no preamp, I can't believe that guitar community at large was so lazy and learning production that this was a problem for almost everyone😂😂😂
@@DangleSan Heya, just wondering what resources you personally recommend for learning these things.
@@gscottanthony7483 I would recommend just start learning about sound production in the digital space,I was reading so many PDFs about how to produce and how to mix, So I understood that parameters in the digital space are much more pronounced and that it's generally a bad idea to crank anything to the max, Also in this part sucks and guitarist are really bad at this but read the manual for the Plug in or modeler you're about to use when I got my Fractal I download the PDF and read it before I even plugged it in, So I understood why some values go from 1-1.000 or 0-5.00 instead of 0-10, Most plugins and modelers now trying to be more guitar friendly with interfaces that goes 0-10 but best believe in the digital space they're still going to a 0-1.000 I.E Even though that plugin has a pedal that looks like a tube screamer don't crank the distortion up to 10, Also another thing to do would be to buy an audio interface that Extra inputs without the Mic preamp levels, So when I plug in my guitar turn up the volume on it that's the volume you get, Or if you plug in a modeler whatever volume the modeler is set to is what you get
exceptional. Thanks so much (to you and Ed)!
I've been dialing back the gain on Helix Native all the time, now it makes so much sense. Thank you Ed S, Rhett and John Cordy!
Big fan, I’m a Veteran pensioner now from Army Service. In Australia where $$$ comes to die on expense for music gear. I’m older guy on way to mid 50’s. Love to take your course to clean up my playing after few yrs of not being able to play. Now I’m home 24/7 with my service dog Trooper. You’re a champ mate, if I can budget bit more I’d love to refresh my triads. Stay strong 🫡🪖🇦🇺
Good onya Digga
This is one of the most useful videos I’ve seen on you tube. Went and gain staged my interface for the 2 neural plugins I own and it now sounds like I wanted/hoped when I bought them. Thanks!😊
We figured this one out a ways back ... couldn't get the Tonex software and hardware to sound the same with same preset. It's still something that requires some tweaking though, I find that the person who designed (or captured) the impulse can be pretty flexible with their parameters. One preset sounds perfect, next has no volume, etc.
I've spent few hours to tweak tonex software sound exactly as tonex pedal. First of all - use internal tonex software demos (in dropdown with play on it) to hear how tonex _meant_ to sound with this exact preset/model (use IK original model for sure). Now you have reference how guitar plugged in PC has to sound. Plug your guitar and turn input gain on interface until it will sound similar (mostly in gain). Remember your gain position. Forget about this video for now. Usually you need your guitar at -12.2--12.5dB (true peak) on meter. Broadcast standard and tonex software definitely counts on this. Now plug your guitar in tonex PEDAL with the same model and adjust your INPUT TRIM in tonex Global settings until your guitar will sound the same. You may use your tonex software demos as a reference while you're doing this. I have my audio interface output plugged into line-in of my amp along with tonex pedal (in power-amp input), so I'm listening tonex software and tonex pedal over the same exact speaker with the same settings. Your answer is in INPUT TRIM settings on tonex Global settings. This param changed radically with firmware update so your old settings might not work now. And I could help you a bit further with this : 1) Use only professional captures from tone partners. Amalgam Audio, Studio Rats, Sadites, Tone Junkies etc. They all set their gain correctly and presets would work as expected. 2) GAIN in your tonex/pedal is NOT the gain of the amp. It's not a model, it's capture. Your gain works _exactly_ as volume knob on guitar while your amp untouched. That's why they give you captures of the same amp on different gain levels like clean/crunch/edge/drive... THIS gain is where you compensate "weak" capture to be in line with stock/professional captures. Gain in your preset is the same as trim-input in your pedal settings (and input in tonex software). This is level of signal hitting the front of the amp model. NOT the gain level of the model. This is captured profile with all knobs of the amp fixed. It has no idea how amp behaves on different settings just because it contains no information except this particular settings on shot. /// Information in this video is NOT about sound from amp plugin. This is about matching hardware range of YOUR interface and THEIR (plugin creators) interface to play on the same playground so to speak. If you play very high gain with a lot of dynamics and compression it _might_ help to fix your sound with this tips from Ed. But RUclipss (not Ed) just forgot to tell you that when you set your input gain to zero on audio interface, you STILL have to gain-up your input signal INSIDE your DAW up to standard -12.2..12.5dB true peak. Just like you did with your audio interface gain but VIRTUALLY. There's "infinite" headroom and your plugin will match range of your interface optimally so you will never hit plugin's headroom just because your interface have another _ground level_ factory specs. This tip on Ed's video is about matching MAX RANGE of YOUR interface and THIER interface. Not about amps or guitars. Amps/guitars works as usual, just inside digital domain. And you still have to deal with your input level and your gain on the amp (modeller, not captured profiles :)) And in tonex all settings (except gain) are PRE or POST your "amp+cab". It does nothing with captured tone model. It just slightly adjusts input or output eq/comp/rev. That's why there is only one single button "Pre/Post" in advanced settings. And gain on your tonex interface, input slider in software and gain knob on pedal (and trim-in setting in your pedal) do EXACTLY the same. Adjust input level of signal hitting the front of the software/pedal. They give you different places just to allow you control different captures independently AND with midi/volume pedal. Because nor GLOBAL trim-in neither KNOB gain isn't available for midi. Only gain in _prifile_. You use your trim-in to fit your _guitar_ to pedal (for software sounding the same as pedal), your gain in preset to match all others presets (and control it with midi/expression pedal) and your gain knob to slightly boost/desaturate your tone (like volume on guitar itself). Sorry for long test. I hope this will help and clarify things. Jason Sadites has few very helpful videos with gain in tonex.
11:21 I came upon this through John Cordy‘s video like probably most people did. I think that guy Ed S who somewhere under one of John‘s video comments soelled his full name which I can’t remember unfortunately, that guy deserves hughe thanks and much love. I think John in one video even kind of called the whole thing, „the S…-method“ or something (again, can’t remember Ed‘s full name). I love the thought of it becoming kind of the standard term for the method of setting your Amp sims Gain as imho Ed deserves it. Thanks a lot Ed! ❤️
Ok Rhett. Your explanation and example makes sense from the point of view of someone who owns the real amp. My own condition is I don't have a real amp. I never know how the real amp reacts with or without boost pedal. Does it really matter how close the plugin to real amp if I don't know the real one in the first place ?
There was a time when I always set my interface gain to 0. This was before Ed S video. The result was most hi gain amp plugin that I tried couldn't produce a satisfying chug and lifeless. At the same, every youtuber who demoed that particular plugin sounded awesome. Then I set my interface plugin to 9 o'clock and miraculously most of hi gain plugin got new life and sounded awesome.
After watching this video and Ed's new upcoming video regarding this topic. I'll try what you suggested in this video.
The same problem here and this is true for "common practice" not related to this video. How we suppose to know what is "right" if we're trying the amp we've never heard before and have no idea how it SHOULD behave ? For me the best reference point is your input gain. Broadcast standard is -9..12dB (true peak). Gain up your input signal (in DAW) up to this level before amp plugin and you'll be there. Real amps built to expect particular range of level from guitars and pre-amp pre-amplifies this incoming low gain signal up to standard. But in DAW/computer there's no such things and guitar plugin _expects_ standard input level. So you have to adjust it by yourself. You may check this by testing the same amp on low-mid gains when there are presets for it. if it does clean on clean and crunch on crunch preset you're approximately there. And you definitely have to listen to original videos with reviews, so you know what to expect and what is so special about this particular amp. :) In digital domain this is not that easy as plugging your guitar in different amps IRL :)
An epiphany not of my own making but it feels just as good! We get caught up in the details and often miss the obvious. Thanks for the nudge. ,JP
Thanks Ed! This solves a bunch of issues I was having...
Great livestream so far. Watching from Northridge, CA. Very useful information. Love your work. Rock on!!
I figured this out a while ago when I couldn’t get a clean tone. In my opinion it’s better to reach for an amp sim suite like amplitude 5 instead of getting individual plugins for individual amp sounds. With something like amplitube you are more likely to get a consistent experience across multiple amps because theoretically amplitube calibrates all of their virtual amps with the same gain staging. Trying to use a lot of different plugins is going to be a bad time.
Amplitube sims sound great once you get the correct input gain, but they are terribly inconsistent across amps, in my experience. I've found that marshalls are the most consistent. WIth my interface, they sound good at -6 dbfs. Fenders are all over the place. For the 65 super reverb to behave correctly, to my ears, I have to add 22.5 dbfs. 65 deluxe reverb needs 27. To achieve this I need to add EQ pedals to the chain. Sometimes, more than one. This shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't need to guess or experiement with the input gain. There should be a standard setup for all amps in a suite. I'm using a focusrite with 12.5 dbfs input gain. It may be different for your setup tho.
@@masplosion9647 yea I hear you. I was getting something similar with the UA Volt 276 instrument DI but then I switched to the axe IO which has a dial for pre-gain impedance and since then it has been absolutely perfect with 3/4 impedance and 10% on the gain dial. I can’t see any numbers that it correlates to but perhaps the difference is being able to adjust the impedance pre-gain. To be fair I rarely use the Marshall amps, I tend to use the fender, mesa boogies and soldano.
Oh and I don’t use any floor pedals, I just use the virtual pedals in the plugins and use a midi controller on the floor to control them.
Been doing this out of necessity for years. I've always found that I have to keep the pre on the interface at its lowest setting when playing guitar straight in (and sometimes even have to trim down.) Even on interfaces "optimized" for hot hi-z inst signals my strat with lace sensors peaks up at about -3/-4 dbfs with the pre all the way down. Even a Mccarty 594 with notoriously low output pickups peaks up above -10.
In retrospect this seems obvious because of the VU levels.... I started trimming back my levels super low because of the VU on the UA board. It always bothered me to set it so low but the the VU is the dead giveaway... but we use the lines for jams, bass & getting a strong transient for edits of the mike amp tracks... I still think my amps/mikes/pres sound way better and warmer... Nice descriptive video and pointers giving & credit to others. Great Job!!!
I remember Ola in one of his videos some time ago always setting his interface gain to 0
Ola has a video I saw over a year ago on the input on plug ins. He said he had the plug in all the way at zero because it was too much gain. After seeing that video I always had my input down to zero or -18, depending on the make and model.
I literally just dealt with this last night on the neural dsp rebellion. My 7 string in and it had a lot of distortion on the claim channel and it wasn't like that before and watching this video pop up today is really weird, but it made me realize why now so thank you. Had my input on my Beringer UMC1820 Not at zero and I also didn't have the instrument button pushed in. Thanks man just subbed to your channel.
This topic sparked a question in my mind: Does the same thing happen, or would the same "rule" apply, when recording vocals through a pre-amp plugin? I mean, are the pre-amp recreations reacting as they should? What levels should we actually feed them? Or am I being nonsensical by having these questions in mind?
I can dial in a physical amp all day, everyday… been doin it for 35 years lol. Once you get to Audio Interface, DIs, plugins, etc, I become a toddler, throwing tantrums… but I refuse to give up.
same here!
@@andremouracosta right? I feel like a dinosaur, but I love my tubes man. You’ll get them outta my cold dead hands
@@raoul_duke7253 I understand it very well... Mostly because I've never been able to set up a plugin to sound great on my ears... Someday it will come together, but right now I stick with my real pedals and amps.
So all we really have, is two simple misunderstandings, both of which cause people to drive plugins too hard: a lot of users have never owned a vintage amp, and are unaware that most didn't break up that early. The other is that we're not recording to tape, and the latest interfaces have better audio performance. You don't need to run the meters almost into the red, just to get a low-noise, full sounding signal.
I was beginning to think I’d never get my plug-ins to sound right!!!
I just did exactly what you and JC suggested and whamo 🥰👍🏼 It’s sounds 200 times better.
I have Axe I/O. (Input level, min gain: 0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input ) I turned the instrument preamp down and backed off the Neural DSP input gain by -2.2
you need to do the opposite. +14 - (-2.2) = 16.2. You need to turn up 1.8.
Watching from Kuala Lumpur.. Actually from states though. Great vid.🎉
Pete Thorn did a great video on the Soldano plug-in (Neural DSP) and he had it to the T with the amp. There may have been a hair more mids in the plugin but if anything I liked that more. Watched on replay till the end because I have this plugin and I also had trouble getting clean tones with proper levels. Now between plugin mic pre level and Focusrite level I'll have some things to try.
This is - on a slight tangent - why I’ve never understood an “always-on” pedal like an EP Booster or some sort of compressor before an amp. That just isn’t how the amp sounds.
Of course if you like the tone, that’s all that matters but I’ve always thought this type of thing was an issue for “authenticity” whether that’s being faithful to an amp with a plug-in as in this use-case, or in my example faithful to what the amp manufacturer recommended.
Definitely gonna mess with this when I get home. It makes so much sense now, hearing It
I knew it! It never made sense to me that when changing guitars, I'd increase/decrease the input gain on the interface, which I thought there was no way that leveling up the gain would happen with the real amp..
I had the feeling but no knowledge to do what Ed did.
Cool Sounds are we are after, both of the methodologies sounded good.
i was following along, checked my input gain and... it was on 0! so i did it right without even thinking/trying lol
How much easier would life be if plugin designers and interface manufacturers would all adhere to base lining every thing to unity gain at 0dB with matched impedances.
Watching the replay from chilly California 😂
Yep! Same here. Had to bust out the sweater and beanie these past few weeks 🥶
Don't try to turn this issue into rocket science. No need to go OCD here.
Just use the amp plugin's input gain or put a gain plugin before the amp plugin and adjust to taste.
Its really that simple!
Well how about this:plugin makers make their unity input level as the ideal input level of the amp they model and we just have to worry about proper gain stage on the interface, that would make everyones life easier !
the issue is more from interfaces all using different specs, and thats hard to standarise as they can all be made to meet different criteria, use cases, power supplies, size constraints etc. Because interfaces are all different, plugins are also going to vary as they can only pick one reference level.
Watching from Palermo (Sicily-Italy)... same city of Matteo Mancuso! 😁
Thanks for this. I had almost given up on amp sim plugins.
Hi! This is great! Ive always noticed the amp sims sounded better with less input, but now im wondering if i would run into any issues if i would want to reamp the DI signal (which would be quite weak). Would i simply turn up the trim level on a reamp box to compensate and it would be the same or would there be some noise issues?
I've never heard "Plug-In" so many times in all my life, so far. I need a beer.
I'm confused why this was an issue for anyone, do you not just listen to it and modify the gain/input to make it sound the best? it takes 2 seconds to adjust the knob and maybe a couple more seconds to try out whatever other settings there are. If this was an issue for anyone I'd use it as a learning opportunity, use your ears more and try tweaking settings don't just do what some youtube video recommends.
in fact this is a clever way to do things as it prevent use from f*** up the presets they made. But do we have an healthy dry recording what if we want to use it with other software ? isn t the noise ratio going to be bad with 0 on the interface ?
The SNR is dictated by the highest source of noise in your chain. Except for extreme cases, the background noise that gets into your pickups will be much louder than the self noise of the interface. You'd have to record VERY quiet on noisy converters to have a noise issue.
Would have been a better comparison if the ox had both mics panned centre.
It’s good to know. However, just to play devil’s advocate, regardless of the interface signal level, if you enjoy the sound, then it’s good.
I like amplitube 5. It is probably my favorite one.
13:10 where is it the umc22 interface ??? 😩😩
So using a Fender Micro Mustang as an interface, do I max out the volume on the interface and set DSP input level to -12.2 could get me in the ballpark. In case I set the Mustang Micro all the way down there is zero level going into the plugin. Thx!
Is this really a “problem”, though? I’ve always thought of an amp sim as really an amp sim with an “always-on” clean boost pedal in front of it (which is exactly my real amp setup anyway!)
great video! i have a tone king amp and i love it!
I wouldn't use my input gain, using the input of the plugin is much better in terms of gain staging.
Can you comment about whether this also applies to using AmpliTube with the AXE IO or is that already optimized through the AXE IO interface?
I think we all did this..thanks cant wait to try!
Others have said it, but yeah Loopback by Rogue Amoeba. The missing Apple audio software. Side note: you'd think that people making software amp sims would have come to some conclusions about how typical users are gain staging their guitars to hit software like this. I don't know how they make modeling software either, but that seams like a reasonable approach unless that approach is as a matter of some actual fact UNreasonable. And if it is, wouldn't they then write that into the how to videos and user guides? The guitar community had to reverse engineer Neural's actual gain staging to figure out what's going on? That's just very silly considering the fact that I live In a world where I can have a really very useful and good quality digital model of a SLO100 on my computer... very silly indeed
What about if you're re-amping a recorded DI guitar track? Do you just trial and error with the level of the track until you find what sounds good going into the amp sim?
I wounder if will this will be a factor when Neural DSP port plugins to the quad Cortex
Thanks for the shoutout and glad the info is proving useful! Really awesome to see how many people say they’re finally getting the tones they were expecting with plugins.
Great job at explaining the topic in an understandable way, and also excellent tones. I hadn’t tried the Tone King but the real amp and plugin both sound wonderful.
Amazing job getting all those gain stages in a database. I've been loving amp sims for a few years since I realised that lower input gain gives me much better tones, and it's fun to play with how that works, even outside of how the amp is supposed to sound. I think I probably set mine lower than it's supposed to be (especially if I'm stacking guitar tracks), with the guitar volume also backed off more than I might in a live setting and really enjoy the way the virtual amp responds to that.
Appreciate you helping people learn to get better tones, but I’m kind of curious what is the need for the database? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just focus on the level that you’re hitting the amp sim plug-in at? If that should be a guitar signal that peaks at, say, -13dbfs then it doesn’t really matter what level your preamp was set to you can just use a utility plug-in or the input knob on the neural dsp plug-in to lower it back down.
@@Danny-jv3xo if you know the exact amount to back down in, yeah you can do it that way. Most interfaces with gain at 0 produce a signal that is a good level already, and it’s easy to get back to that same point without having to remeasured or recalibrate. The specs usually provide the information with gain at 0, and if it’s roughly 12dBu it’s hot enough that humbuckers will be close to clipping
Good work, Ed! Impedance Matching of the inputs/outputs is another factor, due to its effect as a subtle filter, as well as Level Shifting. Note that Rhett's tone changed when he put the fuzz pedal inline to both the real amp and the sim, as well as his level shifted up for the sim - the pedal output has a different (usually much lower) Impedance than the guitar's output. Cheers!
Is he still going into the Hi-Z input after the fuzz pedal? At that point, after the fuzz (or any pedal) shouldn’t you go into the line in?
I don't really use plugins either, however as a live sound engineer, I understand gain, and gain staging, perhaps a little better than most. For most digital devices -18dbfs is the zero db reference. A way to find the true reference of a plugin would be to send pink noise to an analog mixer and set the level to it as close to 0db as you can get it ( it bounces a little ). Now you can send that signal back into your daw setup at unity gain. Whatever the metered level is with your Audio interface gain control all the way down, is the referenced 0db level of that device. I bet it will land on your meters close to -18dbfs. Add your plugin, and you will see where the output of the plugin lands on your meters.
On the amp plugin, there will be three-four gain options. We are looking for a reference, so we need to see where the plugin lands. Call up a factory preset ( one you didn't make/edit ) and feed it the referenced pink noise signal at unity gain. I bet you that the output of the plugin is louder than the reference. Now using the plugins input gain trim, turn it down until the plugins output is the same as your referenced pink noise input. That will be the referenced zero point of that preset. It should be relatively close for all presets. Now feed your guitar signal into it and set your guitar signal to be the same level as your referenced pink noise signal. That should make it as close to the real deal as you can get.
There is no direct correlation to dbfs and db. The 0db " reference " level on an analog mixer is based on a .775v signal. This generally ( not always ) equates to roughly -18dbfs for digital devices. Why this matters? The old and long-standing thing digital DAW users do is run their signal as close to zero dbfs as practical. This is a bad practice that was created in the days of yore when you had to make every bit count. Now, it is no longer an issue, so it is just bad practice to do that.
If you look on your OX box for instance, you can see the volume knobs start at 0db and go down from there. For the mics, it probably doesn't matter, but for the output, you should look to turn it down to the point where the level sets near a 0db reference. An easy way to tell you have unrealistic gain settings when using plugins is that the input signal is magnitudes lower than the signal coming from the plugin. Gain is gain. So if a plugin is louder than the signal being fed into it, then the plugin is adding gain. So now you need to figure out if it is the input, output, pre-amp, or master volumes settings that are adding that extra gain. The factory presets shoudl have been made to some standard level, so it is safe to assume the input control will set the majority of the presets pace.
I agree with this approach. As i dont have an analogue mixer, could I not use a multimeter to measure the voltage of the pink noise out of an output of an audio interface and adjust the levels until i get .775v? Then i could feed that back into a high Z inout until i get -18dbfs?
Very thorough. Thanks!!
and as long as your meters are true. The BBC way and EBU are cool.
Am i the only one that noticed the door closing by itself at 0:53 😰
Yeah WTF!
nope, I commented as well!
WRONG ! ONCE AGAIN THIS VIDEO CONFUSES VIEWERS. /// Cordy tells this. Sadites tells this. But this is WRONG/MISINFORMATION. This confused me a.f. so I write to Ed (author of original video) and he made this all clear to me ! This is NOT about input gain of your GUITAR or TONE of plugin. There's NOTING about amp behaviour either. This is all about matching Max Input Levels (dBu) between YOUR _audio_interface_ and THEIR (plugin creators) _audio_interface_. You still HAVE to gain-up your guitar signal to corresponding healthy level before plugin. You just have to do this _INSIDE_ your software virtually because you have virtually infinite headroom in your DAW. And initial video has NOTHING IN COMMON with guitars or amps and its sound/behaviour. Video is about mapping your interface gain range on studio's interface gain range as OPTIMAL as possible because plugin were born there. Initial video is TITLED literally "OPTIMAL INPUT LEVEL". And this is WRONG to tell that amp has no boost on input jack when you plug your guitar in real amp so you don't have to gain-up input level. If so - why do you need your hi-z input in audio interface instead of "regular" input ? Doesn't hi-z just adds +dBs on top of "raw" signal ? Or your phantom power button ? Amps EXPECT pretty exact level from guitars with slight variations between single coils/humbuckers but still pretty narrow range. And your amp gain knob has 10 levels of WHAT ??? Why your tone breaks on 4-6 if you have crunchy amp and never breaks on fender cleans ? Because amps are made for guitars they are set up for guitars and Gian know adds _exact_ RANGE of gain from 0 to 10 you're dialling. But audio interfaces are made for much wider range of input sources and have completely different initial settings. That's why you have your adjustable input gain (with some ANOTHER range than your amp). You have your INS buttons your +48v buttons etc etc. To fit all possible sources in all possible ranges. And you have to worry about this when you really use full range of your gain in your music like very high-gain chugs or prog metal with tons of compressor and boosters. THEN you might hit your headroom in DAW/plugin but you _cannot_ go any _lower_ because you cranked up your audio interface and lowering (in daw) _below_ this will _kill_ source signal frequencies/information. In worst case scenario audio interface in plugin creator's studio had lower or narrower MAX INPUT LEVEL range and you hitting plugin with gain _range_ it was never been working with. That's why it's better to set your input gain to zero and adjust _your_ zero optimally to studio's zero. To match MAX INPUT RANGE (dBu) of INTERFACES. That's why you're looking for THIS PARTICULAR spec in documentation. OPTIMAL level of your interface to their interface. That's why THIS exact spec is in table and why Ed needed confirmation for plugin creators about THEIR exact interfaces. Not about AMPS but about initial hardware environment. You still have to provide healthy level of signal to your plugin. But you do this virtually by gain plugin or DAW strip knob or whatever. Stop populating this b.s. about setting your interface gain to zero to get _real_ behaviour from virtual amp. This is completely WRONG. And you don't have to worry about this either if you play cleans/crunch music. It's only for overdriven hi-gain cases when you really might flood whole your gain range so it will act incorrectly in plugin's "habitable zone". It's like you're trying to jump up in 2 meters in your 1.8m room while your trainer on video has 2.5m room and jumps in 2 meters. You'll hit your ceiling doing the same and vice versa. This is NOT about jump height. This is about different rooms when you jump so high. But while you're on the floor making your yoga stuff nobody cares about height of your room. And you shouldn't. I see RUclipsrs in a crowd continue to mislead viewers. Stop populating this misinformation.
This is a huge help thanks Rhett. I got the Plug-in Alliance bundle and was using 1073 styles outboard pre on the front end…kept wondering why some of the plug-in descriptions weren’t quite matching expectations. The ‘clean American’ sounds were gainy as hell lol thanks so much!
That is good news for people who has cheaper or older interface, it does not matter how noisy your preamp is because it won't be used to bring any gain , so no extra noise either 😀
That's good news btw, I'm planning to use neural DSP and my mixer preamp is the weakest thing in my whole setup (Behringer 2 channel). I should really upgrade lol.
Especially with Line 6 Helix Native I always felt like everything was way too hot, gainwise, no matter what I selected. Guess my intuition wasn't off even if I wasn't sure how to address it. Thanks for this! ❤
So experiment and turn knobs n stuff
@@kodykindhart5644 I did experiment and turn knobs and stuff. That produced a range of results but didn't produce a clear and unified solution. Plus, I only own one classic amp. So I can compare only that one and maybe figure out what to do in comparison for similar results. Most people using amp sims don't own a tube amp to compare even, so they're shooting blindly.
Plus, even IF you have a tube amp to compare to set up the gain that it matches the original, technically you would have to mic it up and mic it up correctly with one of the mics used in the amp sim to get a comparable result, otherwise you're comparing your ear to a microphone. And THEN figure out the gain difference at the input stage. Fun.
watch that fucking door behind you at 54 seconds. what in the haunted fuck just happened.....
I’m shocked that this is new information because quite often the plug-in sound way too hot so I just turned down the input and it sounded better. I did that like within two days of getting my first plug-in ago. Watching the replay from Las Vegas.
This is not about your guitar input gain. You still have to adjust it. Ed just recommends to do this in DAW in digital domain. Video is NOT about guitar or amp. It's about mapping YOUR audio interface range to their (plugin creators) audio interface range. Interfaces are slightly different in specs and video is about matching them optimally. So plugin fill _feel_ itself in its natural behaviour environment so to speak. Zero/min position of input gain on your audio interface is NOT zero. It just means audio interface will NOT ADD more gain to initial signal. And if you record your initial signal without boosting it - you have all your hardware headroom above to use at your service. But you still have to gain your (recorded/incomming) low (original) level up to standard INS (-12dB peak) level to hit the front of your amp (just like real amps built to expect). Pre-amp stage of amplified does _EXACTLY_ this. Pre-amplifies your low-level input up to _standard_ so power section will have calibrated signal and will start amplify this accordingly. But audio interfaces doesn't behave like that because they are built to work with wide range of sources with wide range of levels. You have to manually deal with this. Keeping you input gain at "zero" just allows you to use full range of your hardware headroom without trimming this from the bottom side, so to speak.
This was incredibly helpful. I have a PreSonus Quantum 2626 interface, and when I have my instrument input essentially “off” or fully to the left, even when I added the channel level in my DAW (StudioOne) to +12.2 it was still way too low to hit the Neural DSP plug-in hard enough.
This is funny timing for all of this to come out, because over the last couple of recordings using plugins I had realized that something was wrong with the levels, and everything was way too hot somewhere.
It is not new, what is new is that Neural is aiming for a less hot input signal while a lot of other companies are aiming for a little below peak level.
"If you're watching this on replay, there will be some chapter markers..." 🤥 😅
This makes sooooo much more sense. Saw Nathan’s video and now this… illuminating. Not that my plugins sounded bad, they just didn’t sound ‘right’.
What about us bottom feeders using Amplitude, recommended setting based on the research? I m using a Volt 276 interface.
for amplitube, set your volt to 0 and be prepared to boost in the plugin.
IK won’t say specifics annoyingly, and it seems to vary amp to amp. A lot of them will need 12dB or more to have the right gain range from the amp. Some of them I need to boost around 30dB to get them in the right gain range - others need no boost at all.
I suspect IK will fix this for AT6 given they refuse to even acknowledge this atm…
@@eds4754 yep, that's been my experience, a real crap shoot, especially when getting one amp brand dialed in and then changing to another... thanks for your efforts and your research.
Kenny of Reaper Mania talked about this a few years ago. But, he used the recording input on the DAW. That is adjust your audio interface gain to average around -18db and more importantly peaks not above -12db on your input meters. This is in general for all plugins. It seemed with your Apollo was somewhere around that level (-18db) on your DAW meter.
I prefer that approach as you don't have to consider which audio interface you are using.
this would normalise all guitars to the same volume no matter if they are quiet or loud pickups and would not yield accurate results. Also, different plugin manufacturers design their plugins for different input levels.
So unfortunately, this method would not be good for getting an accurate gain response from an amp plugin.
This video initially is NOT about guitar input or amp sound. It's about optimal mapping your audio interface MAX VOLUME LEVEL (dBu) to THEIR (plugin creators) audio interface max. vol. level (dBu). To match hardware _ranges_ optimally to make amp plugin feel itself at home. You STILL have to level-up our signal up to -12db. Ed just recommends to do this in DAW instead of narrowing your interface range from the bottom by cranking up input gain.
I always intuitively played with the input gain to get the tones I wanted, as it's a huge factor.
Even in the analog world you'd often boost or cut input gain with a pedal, so I never took it as super set in stone.
But cool that there are now kinda official numbers to compare to the real amps.
Is there any way to know for TONEX or Amplitube 5 from IK Multimedia setting the right input level (Glad to see Apoogee Symphony Desktop there)? 21:42
This was an absolute game changer for me. I'm not the most versed in plugins, or audio recording - but this was totally illuminating and made my digital rig sound 10x better. Thanks for putting this together @RhettShull and @Johnnathancordy. Massive kudos!
Bro please tell me what this video recommend us. The video is too long
@@Abc-nz2yi dial back input gain on interface, as Neural DSP compensates for this natively.
@@brettsnowball thanks 🙏
I don't know, I thought this was obvious, your guitar in real life doesn't have an interface preamp gain... I always did this. The interesting part was the calibration one that the plugins are designed on
I think the best approach is to set the "pre-amp gain" of your audio interface to optimize the A/D conversion. This is "traditional" audio gain staging and it still applies. With 24-bit converters and excellent noise floors in modern equipment you can argue this is less necessary than in the past, but I am not seeing the reason not to optimize it when you can. The "Input Gain/Trim" of the amp sim (or any other plug-in) is there to adjust the signal level before hitting the amp simulation. Adjusting the level on the interface when switching plug-ins makes no sense to me. The role of the interface is to get the best possible digital representation of my analog guitar signal into my computer for processing. When I switch plug-in (different amp sims or say putting a compressor or other effects into the chain before the amp) I should not adjust levels on my audio interface. Those adjustments should be done in the DAW/plugin. Or am I missing something here?
You got it, only that your ideal approach is also what the video shows. The point is to always leave the interface input gain at minimum or at least very low (since on most modern high impedance inputs, it already gives a signal strong enough for recording purposes), and then use the input gain stage on your plugins to adjust the amp sim response as needed (especially for cases like Rhett's where you also own the real amp).
That's what I thought as well. You should give as much signal (without clipping obviously) into to AD converters. As soon as you are within the digital world, all DAWs and PlugIns process in 32bit floating point, so there you can reduce the input gain for the PlugIn if necessary.
Plus: shouldn't the clean recorded signal be completely independent from what plugin you throw at later on? If (for whatever reason) you change the PlugIn after recording this should work with any properly recorded signal if you set the input gain of the PlugIn accordingly.
*I use an RME MULTIFACE. it does not have DI nor HI-Z. My wah provides a bit of bost so i can get my guitar level, but I have to use CLEAN BOOST, just to get my guitar to level/ -12db😮. Without a boost pedal, the guitar is far to low in volume to hit the feont end of the AMP PLUGIN.*
Your input is too hot. That's your problem. Pull down the input gain on the plugin as well as the gain knob on your interface and you'll get that same clean tone.
Why not lower the Input setting on the plugin? That way if you need to reamp, you have a strong DI signal to reamp from. Most, if not all plugins have an Input control so you can lower the input signal level before it hits the 'amp'.
Exactly. The input on the plugin should do that. Neural might add an easy peasy configuration for this, using LUFS short-term to determine the optimal signal.
If you need a strong signal for re-amping you could just raise the fader. Why not record at about - 18dBfs? That should be standard for ages now. Makes life so much easier if everyone agreed on this.
@@johanneschristopherstahle3395 only for the presets. For your own sounds just turn the knobs 'till it sounds nice.
*Exactly*
I’m not sure why Rhett and so many people in the comments are acting “mind-blown” over this “stunning discovery.” You shouldn’t be sending below a -40db signal into a DAW; that’s just going to screw you later if you want to use that DI to re-amp the signal on a live amplifier. This is bad information being presented by a guy who admitted right at the start of the video that he barely uses amp sims to record.
Not to mention, my biggest gripe with all of this… the amp sim and the live amp in this video are being recorded by different microphones in different rooms with different cabs. Not even the same real amps next to each other sound the same. This whole “are they perfect emulations” debate is nothing but a giant ego stroke off for both sides. Use what sounds good and stop making such a big fucking deal out of it. Write good music, record it well, and be done with it or stop calling yourself a musician.
Rant over.
@@BradsGonnaPlay yes this should be done in the digital domain, at the input level of the plugin. Neural and others could add a LUFS short-term metering system for this (instead of those totally not useful peak meters). But mostly use your ears because you can never ever find a rule for all pickups.
Is it possible that the difference in eq and gain you are hearing, after setting the input gain correctly, is based on the Mic positions/IR's in the plugin and the way your amp is Mic'd? Thanks for the video and for supporting John. he is a very hard working and talneted guy.
AMp sims should work like amp. SHould be able to plugin, not increase input gain and get your sound. ALSO should also be able to increase input gain (think how boost pedals do this, or even active pickups) and get a good (yet gainier) sound just like a real amp. So this whole thing about input gain SHOULD work the same way. I have always loaded up my Softube Marshalls on the aux track in UA Console with the Neve 1073 or the tube screamer on the unison slot, with the preamp or level increased going INTO the amp for more gain. So to me makes no sense to have input gain at 0.2 (for Apollo) unless I use real pedals (which is just like increasing the preamp on the 1073 or the level knob on the tubescream in the unison slot). Correct me if I'm think of this incorrectly
Amp sim plugins are an IMMENSE waste of money, and the calibration/gain staging issues and misinformation are incredibly frustrating. I wonder if people realize that they can buy a Fractal FM3 for $1000, which comes with something like 300 amps (that sound way better than any plugin), best in class effects, works as an audio interface for both tracking and reamping with no latency and added noise, and on top of all that you can gig with it? That's literally $3 per amp model, rather than the double to triple $ digits that some plugin companies charge.
Btw, I'm not affiliated with Fractal, it's just my favorite out of all. If you prefer Line 6, the HX Stomp does the same thing, and if you prefer Neural DSP, the Quad Cortex costs less than their plugin collection.
Ed you're the man.
That is incredibly good to know. Seems obvious, now that you go to the trouble of reasoning through it. But I think I might now know why Amplitube/Tonex plugs often sound like absolute garbage when I'm DI-ing on my Apollo and using what seems like a reasonable amount of preamp gain... Kinda feel dumb for not figuring that out myself, but definitely grateful. Thanks! Liked and subbed.
yeah, we have a Huge problem: The plugin can't emulate the real amp in 100% yet, and never will, to be honest...
When you plug the real amp, what I hear is like the sound is "a little far away from your ears" than the plugin..
The plugin have a more "in your face sound" and not "as smooth"...
I think analog gear "blurs the low end" and "attenuate the high ends"... They're still there, but sound very different, and I hear these differences in any "plugins vs Real amp" test made in the internet so far...
Can somebody clarify something for me? When he talks about turning down my preamp, doesn't he mean the input level knob on my interface? If I turn that down to zero then no sound ends up going to the computer and I won't hear anything. I've obviously confused something.
Huge issue i have found. For years i was wondering why everything is so gained up. Now to have that thought justified, love it❤
*RAISES the question
("Begging the question" is a term from propositional logic which means to assert something illegitimately by assuming that unrpoven premises are true).
nerd
This whole amp sim world is completely new to me, but I guess I understand the point why the gain should be adjusted from the interface to zero. I just don't understand why the developers advise otherwise. But I also have a problem with it. When I adjust a gain to zero from my audio interface, my DI signal is so weak that my audio interface's mixer application and my daw are just barely able to recognize it. That's why the amp simulators don't work at all with these instructions. I've tried using amp simulators with Daw and in standalone. My guitar is a fairly new 7-string Schecter with Seymour Duncans active pickups (can't remember the model) and my audio interface is an audient id24 which works with IDmixer app. Amp sims, I've tried Neural DSP: Archetype Gojira X, Rabea, Nolly, Fortin Cali and now I'm trying Mixwave: Spiritbox - Mike Stringer. Where the issue might be?
ok now all that being said . THE COOLEST ABOUT PLUGINS IS THE INPUT VERSATILITY DEPENDING ON WHAT PEDDLES AND WHAT GAIN LEVELS COMMING THROUGH PEDDLES YOU CAN ACHIEVE A HI DIRT TONE WITH LITTLE NOISE .THAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH A REAL AMP NOT EVEN CLOSE .SO PLUGINS CAN BE MAGICALOR DESTRUCTIVE YOUR CHOICE
Rhett this is a great find. I had to "nerd out" for a bit and it brings back memories. I never used plug-ins but used to mix live sound for a band and worship for years. I probably would have set input levels like always at unity gain then back off a little to avoid red lining the channel. I would have never known. Shout outs to Ed S and the others who posted their findings as well. Good stuff right there.
The boss core 1000 depending on what guitar your using let's you boost or lower the guitar input for maximum sound.. these plug ins need something like that
Been playing guitar for a long time, just recently got into recording and track with very limited knowledge. I’ve spent time researching what AI and equip is needed and use GB DAW because I’m just learning. Anyway spent a few days trickle learning about gain staging. Next time I plugged in my interface, check levels with VU plugin and all of this works out. I get the same tones out of GB amp sins that I hear people get out of paid plug-ins. Learn the basics of audio, levels signal chains all that and then use your ears all of this stuff takes care of itself.
This was my background noise while I was working on a painting. Fascinating shit. Great video Rhett!
Cheers to Ed S for opening my eyes to an issue I certainly experienced, but dismissed it as bad plugins.
Doing a record right now, and despite all the hazzle with mics and ambience etc., I've just gone back to re-recording all the guitar tracks with my 5e3 instead of plug-ins, it simply sounds much more direct and better. (I'm playing blues with a twist of rock and country here and there, so what you'd probably call low to medium gain.)
But I saw misha Mansoor video in which he asked to increase input gain of interface to max untill it shows red(clipping) .... Confused now 🤔🤔
For the plugin part: You can also A/B your clean vs distortion tones in the plugin. Start from no gain (on the plugin’s input) and bring it up gradually while A/Bing clean vs distortion. (You may not need to bring it up much at all depending on plugin.) If the clean tone sounds much quieter, you need to turn up the gain. At the point where the volumes match, stop. That’s the right gain setting for your "amp"
I am a mega-nerd. Thanks for teaching me stuff and helping pass the time while I get my studio ready for a new year of business! -Nate
Hi Rhett. Have followed the channel for a long while. Sense you’re fishing for a direction. Why not show more of your process writing and recording the demos? Just walk through the decisions.
How can the amp modeling plugin makers make such bad documentation??? It’s literally the first thing you need to consider, and really affects their rep on accuracy. FYI, it looks like Jason Sadites talked about this in a video 11 months ago, so it’s not really new. I think the detailed assessment done by Ed S is though.
Wow, you record HOT.
I'm just a hobbyist. Been doing it for 10+ years. The entire recording community will tell you to record at -18db. You're at -6?