And I also like how a lot of the time weapon traits are small bonuses so "flavor first" players don't lose THAT much for playing something they think looks cool
@@SwingRipper True, but i personally go with "weapon i think is most fun to use" first, then ask for my gm if i can reflavor it as something else. Like saying the guisarme is actually a glaive, or a dagger is a broken sword
Underrated part of the system. When I played 5e my choice of weapon always used to be a given, but nowadays deciding on which weapon(s) to use is my absolute favorite part of creating a new martial character. There is so much depth!
Yeah same. I'm creating a character for my first time playing PF2e and I'm building a fighter. Yeah I'm just spending my entire starting gold on so many different weapons xD Just because I want to be able to RP the weapon proficiency and also to make her as versatile as possible.
Minor details: 27:33 I'm running an AP that has some underwater combat, and those rules penalize all attack rolls by -2 *except* for Piercing. It's the only time I've ever seen piercing outperform slashing as a damage type. The best guidelines for picking a weapon as a new player, imo, are to just pick what you think is the coolest and build your character around that. I find it's more fun for players to decide "I want to throw axes" or whatever, and then pick everything else based on it (class, attribute bonuses, feats, etc).
Yea the underwater combat rules can be brutal for everything except piercing but also if that matters in a campaign... You can just spend a skill feat. 2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=858
Also weird edgecase for Versatile P is gibbering mouthers. I'm running AV for some newbie players and it counterattacks against slashing damage. Made our fighter throw down his greataxe and pull out the smoking sword from the beginner box just to not get bit.
I love that because of how tight pf2 is, I never feel penalized for going with rule of cool. I played a Magus with Ranger Dedication who wielded a Cresent Cross and a Longsword and never felt like it hurt. Very fun build.
@@SwingRipper The fiddling with their Implements require them to use 1h weapons. They're free actions, but they still require hands free. All implements require "holding" to work. That's why the Weapon Implement restricts the choice for 1-handed weapons, to avoid the "exploit" of picking 2h weapon to deal even more damage. Unless there are some Ancestries' tails shenanigans that I'm not aware of.
@@LightningRaven42 They don't get to use the feats that involve having a free hand though (hence no "fencing fighting style"). I am aware Thaum is using one handed weapons, that is not what DEFINES that fighting style or else I would also have lumped shields into that category as that uses 1 handed weapons. Thaumaturge is its own thing with its own pile of nonsense that does not fit cleanly into normal fighting styles. They are encouraged to NOT have an open offhand as they need to hold an implement in the offhand. They can't use the fencing style feats so I don't count em
It is worth also noting that Thaums have Implement's Empowerment that accounts for them being forced to go with 1-handed weapons without getting any free-hand benefits (an additional 2 damage per die effectively bumps the die size up by 2, in terms of average damage, but with a higher floor and a lower ceiling).
A funny thing about you saying a ranged character should convince someone to play a wrestler, last night our gunslinger was tired of mobile ranged enemies and because he has ridiculous movement speed just ran up and grabbed one of them, making it much easier for our barbarian to smash. I, as a witch, was the other character who ended up grappling one of the crossbow guys :P
I will note that Fencing style having a reliable off-hand without having to re-grip can be very useful for stuff like using potions, elixirs, Quick Drawing throw weapons, etc etc. It can be worth it even for classes without built-in fencing feats and the like. I'm very curious to see Combination weapons in action--they kinda carry a similar design space as Thrown weapons but may require more or less DEX or STR, but with the action cost to switch, and a very sad lack of feats to support them. There are a few Thrown Combination weapons as well, which is pretty funny, but I do think the Three Peaked Tree has potential to be a top-tier weapon with the recent Combination Weapon errata. At base you just have a two-handed Trident, which ain't too bad. Then you have the 60 foot ranged gun part--I figure it's not a bad deal to start with that for an opening shot and then swap to the spear portion, or keep firing away as they come on down. Many Combination weapons also have Critical Fusion, which is like having an alternative Critical Specialization. You can use either the melee weapon's default, the firearm specialization if you discharge as part of the crit, or a pseudo-pick critical specialization, swapping the critical specialization for a pseudo-pick effect (add 2 damage per weapon die). So like for the Three-Peaked Tree, maybe the target is already Frightened 2 and the Clumsy isn't gonna do much--you can cash in the crit for better control (potentially slowing the target) or damage! I think the Mace Multipistol is also going to be a standout with Finesse added--can be great for sword-and-board builds who want a ranged option. Thanks for the guide! Loving the SUMMER OF CONTENT!
Thaumaturge also demands that you have a hand open for your implements, so it fits there as well. Not that a fighter/duelist Archetype can't help things any.
While i actually disagree about fatal and deadly being bad overall, I want to add one specific point against deadly: deadly d8 and lower are not worth losing die size. a damage die step is an average additional damage of 1 on a hit, and 2 on a crit, deadly d8 adds 4.5 on a crit, so you lose -1 on normal hits, and only gain 2.5 on crits, so you need to crit on a 16 or lower. And this is at levels 1-3, where you get the best deal. At 4-11(the largest level range with the same weapon dice count, and perhaps the vast majority of levels people actually play(?)) you only get one deadly die on 2 weapon die, so now you lose -2 on hits and gain...... 0.5 on crits! (higher levels get a bit better, but unless your a fighter with unlimited access to heroism its unlikely to be worth it) TL;DR: Glaive dumb, Guisarme fun
The traits are fine, but its not worth seeking that kind of stuff out imo as it always comes at some kind of cost (usually in the form of damage die being lower)
@@SwingRipper I once played a 20th level mini-adventure (I believe it was four sessions total), all set within one adventuring day, with about one combat per session. We were three players and decided not to party-optimize, mostly to see what weird stuff each of us would bring to the table. I made a Fighter with the archetypes of Bard, Rogue, and Wizard; Dirge of Doom, Dread Striker, and Wizard to get Silent Spell (which used to be two feats). I then took the lump sum of money, used a combination of Bravo's Brews and Sanguine Mutagens instead of spending money on a high-level Resilience rune (who needs those anyways?) I then purchased (honestly *too* many) scrolls of Heroism (mostly 6th rank, but one 9th rank version for the boss fight). Silent Spell let me consistently pre-buff with those, so I could go into any fight with a +2/+3 status bonus to hit, enemies always being Off-Guard and Frightened, and I had the +2 from being a Fighter on top of that. You better believe I was using a Fatal weapon. Who needs teamwork anyways? (We did. We lost the final boss fight by a hair. So... yeah. Still, I was *really* close to pulling it off as the last man standing, despite having no way to get my party members back up. The boss trio were spellcasters, though, which helped my chances, given that I had Enlarge, a Reach weapon in my off-hand, and Disruptive Stance in my back pocket... *so* close!)
Between the short discussion here on fatal & deadly + the discussion around DPR vs Time to Kill, I feel like introducing the concept of "win-more" would be super helpful and could also be a cool video on itself discussing win-more "traps". You are already implicitly talking about it all the time, e.g. when discussing overkill. TO provide another example, and a lot of this will be game dependent, but I noticed Stunning Fist on my monk being almost useless in our AV campaign. Believe it worked 4 times so far (we are level 9), only once against an actually strong opponent. Now AV is infamous for having lots of PL+ individual monsters, so YMMV.
I'll provide a counterargument for why a Thrown Weapon user may want to use a Returning Rune in lieu of relying on Quick Draw. It all comes down to Quick Draw being an action, and so making it exclusive with using other actions, without effectively becoming a Reload 1 weapon. In particular, the feat Dual Thrower makes Thrown Weapons work with Double Slice, and given that that is a 30 or 40% increased hit rate on a second attack, that seems like it will at least compensate for the rune damage that you're missing, at least at higher levels (not actually ran the maths on that yet). Swashbuckler Finishers also work with Thrown Weapons (with the Flying Blade feat), and that does add more d6s than you would be missing without the elemental rune. There's also the fact that a Returning Rune is a level 3 item, and the first damage runes aren't available until level 8ish, if you know you're playing a level 1-10 AP, that's about half the game, so the reducing damage is irrelevant until nearish the end of the campaign. Also, being a level 3 item, the Returning Rune becomes quite cheap relatively early in a campaign, and so obtaining it is generally a lot less expensive than taking Quick Draw, which is a class feat, but also you're probably getting it from the Duellist Dedication, which may lock you out of other Archetypes. If you're going to use a Thrown Weapon as a backup ranged attack only (not a bad idea if you have a lot of Strength), then the Returning Rune is probably a better investment.
So fencing is best defined by its feats to either make you better at disarming or better at counter attacking when you are attacked. Otherwise yes it very much shares a space with Shield style feats. I'd also say fencing is for finesse focused and shields are strength focused but it isn't all inclusive because I think you could swap either if your really wanted to.
That was fun but I think you should have talked about damage type a bit more! Almost nothing resists Bludgeoning (without also resisting S/P). My first pick is always can I find a blunt weapon with the traits I want.
Shield Boss on a (Sturdy) Shield along with a Shield Boss Buckler is for people who can't choose whether they want to be use a Shield, Unarmed or Dual Wielding. Get the best feats from each style: Double Slice at full accuracy thanks to Shield Group, Combat Grab (especially with Agile Shield Grip), Reflexive Shield*, etc. *Not necessarily an outlier, as getting to use a Shield is benefit enough.
have you ever made a video about movement? as a Fleet lover, I would love to see people paying more attention to movement feats. In my last session the strix was able to overcome difficult terrain in a very cluch moment with his "chicken flight" xD
@@SwingRipper we were using d10 s versatile p parry sweep (called warsword) and d6 s versatile p parry twohand d10 (called knightly sword). Parry is very inconsistent in terms of trait cost I think, it costs like minor trait on something like main gauche, but is very costly on d6 one-handed weapons without agile (for me it's should be reversed, damage from "main" weapon is more valuable, because you would make full map attacks with it)
EDIT: Never mind, I forgot about the Doubling and Halving Damage section that says benefits from crits aren't doubled. 23:34 Small correction: The extra die you get from the fatal trait is doubled. The deadly trait lists that the extra die is rolled after doubling damage, but the fatal trait lacks that wording, so the default assumption is that it is doubled. So you would increase all your damage dice, add an extra die of that type, and _then_ double it all. Makes fatal weapons hit that much harder on crits.
It’s weird that it isn’t stated in the fatal trait, but the extra die is still not doubled. From the Player Core p 407, Doubling and Halving Damage: “Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren't doubled.”
@@kenzied1831 i have to say, that wording frustrates me as well, as it is easy to assume that the increased die size from fatal is something you "only get on a crit" and thus shouldn't be doubled meaning that by that RAW interpretation fatal just means on crit *instead* of doubling the damage you just increase the die size which makes fatal strictly a nerf trait like cobbled, to be clear i know RAI the damage die are still doubled but the RAW imo actually contradicts this
I feel like you underrate melee + open hand. You get access to all maneuvers, sure, but you also get access to items in general. It's essentially action-economy-suicide to use an item if you don't already have a hand free. Potions are fundamentally worthless in combat without an open hand to apply them with, RAW.
Yea, but I find that maneuver focused characters tend to do maneuvers and have weapon as the backup option, that is a very strong style, but you do lose quite a bit of damage to reach for maneuvers (Frequently that damage drop is worth it hence why Wrestler is so good)
I'm really looking forward for Swashbuckler's return in Player Core 2. I plan on playing a one-armed fencer. I'll have to which actions would be restricted due to having only one arm (stuff like grapple, etc.). The only problem I can think of so far would be disarm since it requires a free hand.
Yeah, that was my first thought. It's literally in the flavor of the class, the image that comes to mind for Swashbuckler is someone like Zorro, who fights one handed using a rapier with that fencer style.
wouldn’t the best “fencing style” class be swashbuckler over fighter? if i remember correctly, most swashbuckling actions require a 1 handed agile or finesse weapon and a free hand
You don't need it to be one-handed but it can be useful for some other their stances like Dueling Parry and the upgraded stance, Dueling Dance. 2-handed finesse swash works fine!
One thing to mention. You said with dual wielding that when you get knocked out you drop both your weapons. I believe by RAW this is true for 'sword and board' characters as well.
Shields can be strapped to an arm technically, makes it an action to unstrap them before you can drop them but they stay on you if you get knocked out... There is language in other sections of the rules to support this
I don’t think the statement that people with loading weapons ie guns shouldn’t attack with MAP is a good rule of thumb. Particularly for gunslingers whose second attack with a firearm is as accurate as a flurry ranger’s second attack.
Its a solid rule of thumb unless you have a REALLY good action you can do while reloading... Otherwise that -5 attack just does not look great as you spend half your actions reloading for (possibly) minimal gain. Guns also tend to be Fatal so its really bad for them to attack under full accuracy anyway. For the specific case of a Gunslinger using a Crossbow or non-fatal gun then yes against foes with lower AC the general advice does not hold... There is a time for every piece of general advice to be ignored, I can show times it is objectively correct to make a 3rd strike in a turn. It is important to note that every piece of advice has times where you should ignore it, but I still think the general idea of "if a Strike effectively costs 2 actions, you probably should not do it at MAP" kinda like how Spellstrike is bad at MAP due to needing to recharge.
Barricade Buster is one of the best ranged weapons in the game, especially if you're not a Gunslinger, and you're willing to dump some boosts in Strength. d10 damage + Kickback and the Repeating trait, which means that it needs to be shot 8 times before you need to reload it, which almost never comes up (and if it does, probably best to just have a backup weapon). It does have a fairly narrow range (Range 40ft, Volley 20ft), but moving around at range is probably safer than doing so in the midst of melee combat.
The Switchsythe and facatta could be good options for sword and board fighters. Switchsythe the is basically a pick with the grapple or sweep trait (you can spend an action to switch) and a falcatta will deal about as much damage as a d10 weapon(if you’re a fighter)
You mention that battle medicine requires a free hand but the entries in Player Core and Archives of Nethys don’t state the free hand requirement. It’s a remaster change
Just a nitpick, but there is a reason to use a one handed weapon without feat support. It's called a shield. For fencer, the Swashbuckler was already pointed out...but there is also a Magus subclass too. Yes, not a lot of feat support...but it does have a pretty big effect on the base class abilities. Sword and board isn't just a fun name. It's from the SCA...who also play a lot of TTRPG games.
Strictly one handed "longswords" are not real, "big sword with short handle" historically would be something like viking swords and we aren't actually sure why they kept the grips so tight - but there must have been some practical benefit. In any case there should be SOME kind of beneficial trait on what's called 'longsword" in PF2E.
To be even more strict, longsword historically did not just describe two handed swords, it was any sword that happened to be long (most of which were two handed) Yes I am aware that longswords in this game behave like a sword commonly known as an arming sword but take your problems up with those who set this precedent.
Can you explain the formula for creating balanced homebrew weapons? Does it start with a d12 two-handed, and then decrease the damaged by one die size per trait, and decrease again if one-handed? I believe the formula is something along those lines. Also, interested in how it would be different for a simple vs martial vs advanced weapons. Thanks in advance.
Most* traits are worth half a die tier (*calling those minor traits). The starting "budget" for a weapon is d12 2-handed martial weapon with one minor trait. Going to advanced has you gain 1 minor trait, going down to simple has you lose 1 max die tier and 1 minor trait. You can go down 2 die sizes to remove a hand. Go down 1 die size to add in another minor trait of choice. Full die size to add something like Fatal, Parry, Reach, etc that are more valuable. If you want to make a weapon with a specific handedness / trait combination the best way to balance it is to look at similar weapons and make sure that you understand how
@@SwingRipper I was hoping for a more precise formula. For example, which traits are minor and which ones are worth a full die size. You gave some examples, but I assume there are other traits that are worth the full die size. Sounds like nobody has cracked the code for the actual formula Paizo uses to balance weapons. The best we can do is approximate their process?
Trying to make it a whole formula ALSO fails to account for that some feats that have direct synergy are not put on the same weapon IE Sweep + Agile are rarely ever seen together. We know the process like 99%, but it is not something that fits in a youtube comment. The actual best advice is to look for similar weapons.
My favorite weapon is the bastard sword - as a 1+ hand melee, it can easily switch between "freedom of action" and "gonna ruin your whole day". Need to heal your buddy? One handed switch, bandage time. Need to off the ogre before he reciprocates? Two hand switch, time to nail me an ugly. Sure, it doesn't exactly have many extra traits, but hey, sometimes simple is best.
You probly know this but combination weapons are kinda trash. They're cool as hell ! But they're litteraly worst than the sum of their parts. If you want a combination weapon, get a gun, slap a bayonet on it and go to town, or get a melee weapon and a backup thrown weapon. Combination weapons are good in those niche levels (3-4, 10-12, 15-16) where you only have money for one weapon at max runes. But since fundamental runes essentially come at a discount most times (they're very often lootable and transferable which means slotting them into a weapon is better than selling them cost wise) the drop in damage on both ends of combination weapons makes them utter trash. As a Gm I typically remove 1-2 traits from combination weapons or drop a hand on them in order to make them viable for characters, cause otherwise players just don't play them.
Yea combo weapons are generally not good unless you have exact synergy abilities from class, but they are interesting enough to deserve a spot and can certainly be used in "cash starved" games where buying enough runes is a real challenge
![KSI - Thick Of It (feat. Trippie Redd) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/At8v_Yc044Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that, in Pathfinder, weapons aren't just reskined damage sticks. They actually have unique proprieties that change and dictate your playstyle
And I also like how a lot of the time weapon traits are small bonuses so "flavor first" players don't lose THAT much for playing something they think looks cool
@@SwingRipper True, but i personally go with "weapon i think is most fun to use" first, then ask for my gm if i can reflavor it as something else. Like saying the guisarme is actually a glaive, or a dagger is a broken sword
Underrated part of the system. When I played 5e my choice of weapon always used to be a given, but nowadays deciding on which weapon(s) to use is my absolute favorite part of creating a new martial character. There is so much depth!
Yeah same. I'm creating a character for my first time playing PF2e and I'm building a fighter. Yeah I'm just spending my entire starting gold on so many different weapons xD
Just because I want to be able to RP the weapon proficiency and also to make her as versatile as possible.
Minor details:
27:33 I'm running an AP that has some underwater combat, and those rules penalize all attack rolls by -2 *except* for Piercing. It's the only time I've ever seen piercing outperform slashing as a damage type.
The best guidelines for picking a weapon as a new player, imo, are to just pick what you think is the coolest and build your character around that. I find it's more fun for players to decide "I want to throw axes" or whatever, and then pick everything else based on it (class, attribute bonuses, feats, etc).
Yea the underwater combat rules can be brutal for everything except piercing but also if that matters in a campaign... You can just spend a skill feat.
2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=858
Also weird edgecase for Versatile P is gibbering mouthers. I'm running AV for some newbie players and it counterattacks against slashing damage. Made our fighter throw down his greataxe and pull out the smoking sword from the beginner box just to not get bit.
Babe, wake up, new SwingRipper video just dropped.
I love that because of how tight pf2 is, I never feel penalized for going with rule of cool. I played a Magus with Ranger Dedication who wielded a Cresent Cross and a Longsword and never felt like it hurt. Very fun build.
Swashbucklers, Thaumaturges and Laughing Shadow Magus are encouraged to go one-handed.
Thaum is not encouraged to go open offhand
Laughing Shadow is its own weird case fighting style
Forgot about swash when recording
@@SwingRipper The fiddling with their Implements require them to use 1h weapons. They're free actions, but they still require hands free.
All implements require "holding" to work. That's why the Weapon Implement restricts the choice for 1-handed weapons, to avoid the "exploit" of picking 2h weapon to deal even more damage.
Unless there are some Ancestries' tails shenanigans that I'm not aware of.
@@LightningRaven42 They don't get to use the feats that involve having a free hand though (hence no "fencing fighting style"). I am aware Thaum is using one handed weapons, that is not what DEFINES that fighting style or else I would also have lumped shields into that category as that uses 1 handed weapons. Thaumaturge is its own thing with its own pile of nonsense that does not fit cleanly into normal fighting styles.
They are encouraged to NOT have an open offhand as they need to hold an implement in the offhand. They can't use the fencing style feats so I don't count em
@@SwingRipper Ah. I get you. That makes sense.
It is worth also noting that Thaums have Implement's Empowerment that accounts for them being forced to go with 1-handed weapons without getting any free-hand benefits (an additional 2 damage per die effectively bumps the die size up by 2, in terms of average damage, but with a higher floor and a lower ceiling).
A funny thing about you saying a ranged character should convince someone to play a wrestler, last night our gunslinger was tired of mobile ranged enemies and because he has ridiculous movement speed just ran up and grabbed one of them, making it much easier for our barbarian to smash. I, as a witch, was the other character who ended up grappling one of the crossbow guys :P
Honorable mention to getting a cast of 4th level invisibility on a ranged character for a reliable source of off guard.
That’s actually really smart
I will note that Fencing style having a reliable off-hand without having to re-grip can be very useful for stuff like using potions, elixirs, Quick Drawing throw weapons, etc etc. It can be worth it even for classes without built-in fencing feats and the like.
I'm very curious to see Combination weapons in action--they kinda carry a similar design space as Thrown weapons but may require more or less DEX or STR, but with the action cost to switch, and a very sad lack of feats to support them.
There are a few Thrown Combination weapons as well, which is pretty funny, but I do think the Three Peaked Tree has potential to be a top-tier weapon with the recent Combination Weapon errata. At base you just have a two-handed Trident, which ain't too bad. Then you have the 60 foot ranged gun part--I figure it's not a bad deal to start with that for an opening shot and then swap to the spear portion, or keep firing away as they come on down.
Many Combination weapons also have Critical Fusion, which is like having an alternative Critical Specialization. You can use either the melee weapon's default, the firearm specialization if you discharge as part of the crit, or a pseudo-pick critical specialization, swapping the critical specialization for a pseudo-pick effect (add 2 damage per weapon die). So like for the Three-Peaked Tree, maybe the target is already Frightened 2 and the Clumsy isn't gonna do much--you can cash in the crit for better control (potentially slowing the target) or damage!
I think the Mace Multipistol is also going to be a standout with Finesse added--can be great for sword-and-board builds who want a ranged option.
Thanks for the guide! Loving the SUMMER OF CONTENT!
Thaumaturge also demands that you have a hand open for your implements, so it fits there as well. Not that a fighter/duelist Archetype can't help things any.
While i actually disagree about fatal and deadly being bad overall, I want to add one specific point against deadly:
deadly d8 and lower are not worth losing die size.
a damage die step is an average additional damage of 1 on a hit, and 2 on a crit, deadly d8 adds 4.5 on a crit, so you lose -1 on normal hits, and only gain 2.5 on crits, so you need to crit on a 16 or lower. And this is at levels 1-3, where you get the best deal. At 4-11(the largest level range with the same weapon dice count, and perhaps the vast majority of levels people actually play(?)) you only get one deadly die on 2 weapon die, so now you lose -2 on hits and gain...... 0.5 on crits! (higher levels get a bit better, but unless your a fighter with unlimited access to heroism its unlikely to be worth it)
TL;DR: Glaive dumb, Guisarme fun
The traits are fine, but its not worth seeking that kind of stuff out imo as it always comes at some kind of cost (usually in the form of damage die being lower)
@@SwingRipper But have you considered: Fatal = BEEEG numbers?
@@Etropalker You make a strong argument...
@@SwingRipper I once played a 20th level mini-adventure (I believe it was four sessions total), all set within one adventuring day, with about one combat per session. We were three players and decided not to party-optimize, mostly to see what weird stuff each of us would bring to the table.
I made a Fighter with the archetypes of Bard, Rogue, and Wizard; Dirge of Doom, Dread Striker, and Wizard to get Silent Spell (which used to be two feats). I then took the lump sum of money, used a combination of Bravo's Brews and Sanguine Mutagens instead of spending money on a high-level Resilience rune (who needs those anyways?)
I then purchased (honestly *too* many) scrolls of Heroism (mostly 6th rank, but one 9th rank version for the boss fight). Silent Spell let me consistently pre-buff with those, so I could go into any fight with a +2/+3 status bonus to hit, enemies always being Off-Guard and Frightened, and I had the +2 from being a Fighter on top of that.
You better believe I was using a Fatal weapon. Who needs teamwork anyways?
(We did. We lost the final boss fight by a hair. So... yeah. Still, I was *really* close to pulling it off as the last man standing, despite having no way to get my party members back up. The boss trio were spellcasters, though, which helped my chances, given that I had Enlarge, a Reach weapon in my off-hand, and Disruptive Stance in my back pocket... *so* close!)
Between the short discussion here on fatal & deadly + the discussion around DPR vs Time to Kill, I feel like introducing the concept of "win-more" would be super helpful and could also be a cool video on itself discussing win-more "traps". You are already implicitly talking about it all the time, e.g. when discussing overkill.
TO provide another example, and a lot of this will be game dependent, but I noticed Stunning Fist on my monk being almost useless in our AV campaign. Believe it worked 4 times so far (we are level 9), only once against an actually strong opponent. Now AV is infamous for having lots of PL+ individual monsters, so YMMV.
I'll provide a counterargument for why a Thrown Weapon user may want to use a Returning Rune in lieu of relying on Quick Draw. It all comes down to Quick Draw being an action, and so making it exclusive with using other actions, without effectively becoming a Reload 1 weapon.
In particular, the feat Dual Thrower makes Thrown Weapons work with Double Slice, and given that that is a 30 or 40% increased hit rate on a second attack, that seems like it will at least compensate for the rune damage that you're missing, at least at higher levels (not actually ran the maths on that yet).
Swashbuckler Finishers also work with Thrown Weapons (with the Flying Blade feat), and that does add more d6s than you would be missing without the elemental rune.
There's also the fact that a Returning Rune is a level 3 item, and the first damage runes aren't available until level 8ish, if you know you're playing a level 1-10 AP, that's about half the game, so the reducing damage is irrelevant until nearish the end of the campaign.
Also, being a level 3 item, the Returning Rune becomes quite cheap relatively early in a campaign, and so obtaining it is generally a lot less expensive than taking Quick Draw, which is a class feat, but also you're probably getting it from the Duellist Dedication, which may lock you out of other Archetypes. If you're going to use a Thrown Weapon as a backup ranged attack only (not a bad idea if you have a lot of Strength), then the Returning Rune is probably a better investment.
So fencing is best defined by its feats to either make you better at disarming or better at counter attacking when you are attacked. Otherwise yes it very much shares a space with Shield style feats. I'd also say fencing is for finesse focused and shields are strength focused but it isn't all inclusive because I think you could swap either if your really wanted to.
That was fun but I think you should have talked about damage type a bit more! Almost nothing resists Bludgeoning (without also resisting S/P). My first pick is always can I find a blunt weapon with the traits I want.
Oooh true, should have mentioned power of B a bit more
Shield Boss on a (Sturdy) Shield along with a Shield Boss Buckler is for people who can't choose whether they want to be use a Shield, Unarmed or Dual Wielding.
Get the best feats from each style: Double Slice at full accuracy thanks to Shield Group, Combat Grab (especially with Agile Shield Grip), Reflexive Shield*, etc.
*Not necessarily an outlier, as getting to use a Shield is benefit enough.
I recommend the Glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive
have you ever made a video about movement? as a Fleet lover, I would love to see people paying more attention to movement feats. In my last session the strix was able to overcome difficult terrain in a very cluch moment with his "chicken flight" xD
Nope! Movement is like the king of "topics that are so situational I have no idea how to make a good general guide"
I really wish paizo would add some twohanded swords with parry, we already homebrewing them, but official options would be nice
I think parry is generally an underloved trait by paizo, its worth about -1 damage die... I could totally see 2h d10 S parry versatile P as a sword
@@SwingRipper we were using d10 s versatile p parry sweep (called warsword) and d6 s versatile p parry twohand d10 (called knightly sword). Parry is very inconsistent in terms of trait cost I think, it costs like minor trait on something like main gauche, but is very costly on d6 one-handed weapons without agile (for me it's should be reversed, damage from "main" weapon is more valuable, because you would make full map attacks with it)
EDIT: Never mind, I forgot about the Doubling and Halving Damage section that says benefits from crits aren't doubled.
23:34 Small correction: The extra die you get from the fatal trait is doubled. The deadly trait lists that the extra die is rolled after doubling damage, but the fatal trait lacks that wording, so the default assumption is that it is doubled. So you would increase all your damage dice, add an extra die of that type, and _then_ double it all. Makes fatal weapons hit that much harder on crits.
It’s weird that it isn’t stated in the fatal trait, but the extra die is still not doubled. From the Player Core p 407, Doubling and Halving Damage: “Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren't doubled.”
@@kenzied1831 Oh! I was unaware of that, thank you
@@kenzied1831 i have to say, that wording frustrates me as well, as it is easy to assume that the increased die size from fatal is something you "only get on a crit" and thus shouldn't be doubled meaning that by that RAW interpretation fatal just means on crit *instead* of doubling the damage you just increase the die size which makes fatal strictly a nerf trait like cobbled, to be clear i know RAI the damage die are still doubled but the RAW imo actually contradicts this
Let me guess... one with the Grapple trait?
You forgot the "useless" weapons that have traits.
Offhand whip with reach and Trip as an example. Worse thing that happens is you drop that fist.
I feel like you underrate melee + open hand. You get access to all maneuvers, sure, but you also get access to items in general. It's essentially action-economy-suicide to use an item if you don't already have a hand free. Potions are fundamentally worthless in combat without an open hand to apply them with, RAW.
Yea, but I find that maneuver focused characters tend to do maneuvers and have weapon as the backup option, that is a very strong style, but you do lose quite a bit of damage to reach for maneuvers
(Frequently that damage drop is worth it hence why Wrestler is so good)
I'm really looking forward for Swashbuckler's return in Player Core 2. I plan on playing a one-armed fencer. I'll have to which actions would be restricted due to having only one arm (stuff like grapple, etc.). The only problem I can think of so far would be disarm since it requires a free hand.
15:09 "can't think of any other class that supports fencer style"... Swashbuckler?!
I was thinking the same thing. Although fighter does it better. Let's see if core 2 give more 1 handed utility.
Yeah, that was my first thought. It's literally in the flavor of the class, the image that comes to mind for Swashbuckler is someone like Zorro, who fights one handed using a rapier with that fencer style.
Swash does not have as heavy feat support as fighter but they do have *some* feat support yea
Forgot about em lol
Magus also has a subclass around it as well.
wouldn’t the best “fencing style” class be swashbuckler over fighter? if i remember correctly, most swashbuckling actions require a 1 handed agile or finesse weapon and a free hand
You don't need it to be one-handed but it can be useful for some other their stances like Dueling Parry and the upgraded stance, Dueling Dance. 2-handed finesse swash works fine!
@@ryanprice6059 oh! very cool!
One thing to mention. You said with dual wielding that when you get knocked out you drop both your weapons. I believe by RAW this is true for 'sword and board' characters as well.
Shields can be strapped to an arm technically, makes it an action to unstrap them before you can drop them but they stay on you if you get knocked out... There is language in other sections of the rules to support this
Great video for helping new players decide what weapons to use when first building a character. 10/10 video (hopefully a 1/10 for RUclips sake ;) )
It is currently 1/10! Displacing the previous 1/10 which was the previous video!
@@SwingRipper we love to see it!
I don’t think the statement that people with loading weapons ie guns shouldn’t attack with MAP is a good rule of thumb. Particularly for gunslingers whose second attack with a firearm is as accurate as a flurry ranger’s second attack.
Its a solid rule of thumb unless you have a REALLY good action you can do while reloading... Otherwise that -5 attack just does not look great as you spend half your actions reloading for (possibly) minimal gain.
Guns also tend to be Fatal so its really bad for them to attack under full accuracy anyway.
For the specific case of a Gunslinger using a Crossbow or non-fatal gun then yes against foes with lower AC the general advice does not hold... There is a time for every piece of general advice to be ignored, I can show times it is objectively correct to make a 3rd strike in a turn.
It is important to note that every piece of advice has times where you should ignore it, but I still think the general idea of "if a Strike effectively costs 2 actions, you probably should not do it at MAP" kinda like how Spellstrike is bad at MAP due to needing to recharge.
Only 306? Damn thought it was a lot more
Are there any particularly good advanced weapons? They usually dont seem worth it to me
Well Flickmace used to be good......
Dwarven War Axe for 1.5 handed characters
Generally not good to go out of your way for them tho
Barricade Buster is one of the best ranged weapons in the game, especially if you're not a Gunslinger, and you're willing to dump some boosts in Strength. d10 damage + Kickback and the Repeating trait, which means that it needs to be shot 8 times before you need to reload it, which almost never comes up (and if it does, probably best to just have a backup weapon). It does have a fairly narrow range (Range 40ft, Volley 20ft), but moving around at range is probably safer than doing so in the midst of melee combat.
The Switchsythe and facatta could be good options for sword and board fighters. Switchsythe the is basically a pick with the grapple or sweep trait (you can spend an action to switch) and a falcatta will deal about as much damage as a d10 weapon(if you’re a fighter)
You dont need to convince me to play a wrestler its my favorite archetype
You mention that battle medicine requires a free hand but the entries in Player Core and Archives of Nethys don’t state the free hand requirement. It’s a remaster change
It needed a free hand before, now the freehand requirement is buried in the tools
@@SwingRipper Ahh - I see it now. Thanks. I’d better adjust what I’m doing. It always felt a bit weird. Cheers
Just a nitpick, but there is a reason to use a one handed weapon without feat support. It's called a shield.
For fencer, the Swashbuckler was already pointed out...but there is also a Magus subclass too. Yes, not a lot of feat support...but it does have a pretty big effect on the base class abilities.
Sword and board isn't just a fun name. It's from the SCA...who also play a lot of TTRPG games.
Shields were mentioned as a different fighting style
@SwingRipper like I said nitpick...but in the weapon type section...not fighting style.
Strictly one handed "longswords" are not real, "big sword with short handle" historically would be something like viking swords and we aren't actually sure why they kept the grips so tight - but there must have been some practical benefit. In any case there should be SOME kind of beneficial trait on what's called 'longsword" in PF2E.
To be even more strict, longsword historically did not just describe two handed swords, it was any sword that happened to be long (most of which were two handed)
Yes I am aware that longswords in this game behave like a sword commonly known as an arming sword but take your problems up with those who set this precedent.
@@SwingRipper That's exactly what I meant, sorry I wasn't clear.
Don't you think that Swashbuckler also supports fencing?
Sadly common weapons feels like worst thrown weapon, but def cool.
I didn't realise sweep was a circ bonus. That is annoying.
Can you explain the formula for creating balanced homebrew weapons? Does it start with a d12 two-handed, and then decrease the damaged by one die size per trait, and decrease again if one-handed? I believe the formula is something along those lines. Also, interested in how it would be different for a simple vs martial vs advanced weapons. Thanks in advance.
Most* traits are worth half a die tier (*calling those minor traits). The starting "budget" for a weapon is d12 2-handed martial weapon with one minor trait. Going to advanced has you gain 1 minor trait, going down to simple has you lose 1 max die tier and 1 minor trait.
You can go down 2 die sizes to remove a hand. Go down 1 die size to add in another minor trait of choice. Full die size to add something like Fatal, Parry, Reach, etc that are more valuable.
If you want to make a weapon with a specific handedness / trait combination the best way to balance it is to look at similar weapons and make sure that you understand how
@@SwingRipper I was hoping for a more precise formula. For example, which traits are minor and which ones are worth a full die size. You gave some examples, but I assume there are other traits that are worth the full die size. Sounds like nobody has cracked the code for the actual formula Paizo uses to balance weapons. The best we can do is approximate their process?
Trying to make it a whole formula ALSO fails to account for that some feats that have direct synergy are not put on the same weapon IE Sweep + Agile are rarely ever seen together.
We know the process like 99%, but it is not something that fits in a youtube comment. The actual best advice is to look for similar weapons.
@@SwingRipper okay, I just thought maybe there was a known formula. I appreciate your replies and the content you create. Thank you.
PF2E: suplex the world. :D
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My favorite weapon is the bastard sword - as a 1+ hand melee, it can easily switch between "freedom of action" and "gonna ruin your whole day". Need to heal your buddy? One handed switch, bandage time. Need to off the ogre before he reciprocates? Two hand switch, time to nail me an ugly. Sure, it doesn't exactly have many extra traits, but hey, sometimes simple is best.
Bastard Sword is also probably my fav weapon!
You probly know this but combination weapons are kinda trash.
They're cool as hell ! But they're litteraly worst than the sum of their parts. If you want a combination weapon, get a gun, slap a bayonet on it and go to town, or get a melee weapon and a backup thrown weapon.
Combination weapons are good in those niche levels (3-4, 10-12, 15-16) where you only have money for one weapon at max runes. But since fundamental runes essentially come at a discount most times (they're very often lootable and transferable which means slotting them into a weapon is better than selling them cost wise) the drop in damage on both ends of combination weapons makes them utter trash.
As a Gm I typically remove 1-2 traits from combination weapons or drop a hand on them in order to make them viable for characters, cause otherwise players just don't play them.
Yea combo weapons are generally not good unless you have exact synergy abilities from class, but they are interesting enough to deserve a spot and can certainly be used in "cash starved" games where buying enough runes is a real challenge
@@SwingRipper It is pretty much only Triggerbrand Salvo.... but oh boy can you do silly stuff with the Gunslinger dedication and TS post lvl 12.
15:17 swashbuckler left the chat.