LaYoUtS DoN't MaTtEr | Swapping The Pin & Mass Bias!
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- I wanted to see what happens when I "accidentally" use the Mass Bias locator as my Pin and my Pin as my Mass Bias and drill the Hammer Effect flip-flopped. Will it roll over all the drilled holes? Will it be the next secret layout that dominates?! What is the effect?! Time will tell.
(For those that want to know the numbers of the actual layout, it came out to -62 x 4 7/8 x 120.)
ON EDIT: SPECTO DATA at 9:20 for TOTAL HOOK for bottom ball should be 25.32, not 11.39.
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With the help of SPECTO data, it'll help tell the story about reaction shape, overall hook and continuation through the pins. Here are the SPECTO data points used and definition of each term:
Launch Speed - Speed measured off the hand.
Entry Speed - Speed measured at the pins. (What you'd see on your home center MPH screens)
Rev Rate - Revolutions Per Minute (RPM)
Launch Angle - The angle the ball traveled the first 10 feet.
Break Point Position - Board at which the ball was at its outermost position.
Total Hook - Total number of boards the ball crosses on the way to the pins.
Hook Power - Number of boards the ball hooked based on the True Breakpoint.
Entry Angle - The angle of the ball between 51 and 55 feet.
Impact Angle - The angle of the ball between 57 and 59.5 feet.
Pin Deck Exit - Ball position at the end of the pin deck.
Questions? Comments? Let me know! I read all the comments and respond to many!
#Bowling #BowlingTips #BrunsNick
Lol the point I've been waiting to hear is your remark at @12:20 . Exactly...balls don't hook in oil lol. Layouts is all about response to friction and storing/burning energy (flare), which many of us have known for a long time haha. To complete the topic you should drill a pin-on-pap ball to show what that does too. Great video!
Aww BrunsNick, don't accidentally prove layouts don't matter.
I’ll try not to. 🤣
Love this video. Layouts DO matter. Thanks for the Full Roller mention. You might want to switch to the thumper layout to avoid those 8 pins! 😂
Surprised nobody noticed my SPECTO data error at 9:20 and pointed it out. Thumper should be 25.32, not 11.39 total hook.
Us league bowlers cant tell the difference between layouts and you expect us to know how to read specto data? Haha
No matter what... nick is always going to be my favorite 🤷
I really appreciate that. Thank you.
@brunsnick anytime. You're a good dude that makes good content. Keep it up nick 💪
Maybe you can do a collab with Bryan Buckosh to analyze the core mechanics between the two configurations? I'd find that interesting. 👍
Maybe JR is not too far off on his comments? BrunsNick had to turn that ball upside down, and it still hooked and struck....For us League Bowlers, I think if it is "Close" then it just might not make that much of a difference.
And that’s where we all agree I think. The difference for most people with minor layout changes will be mostly unnoticed.
Ok ok @brunsnick layouts don’t matter what about paps?
Knowing it matters if you really want to know your gear and the transition from ball to ball for what will work for you. However I just say find a layout or two that you like and have success with and then pick different balls and surfaces to make your arsenal.
Thanks for the lead to this vid Brunsnick. I wasnt aware that the video i was previously whatching, was older. The live podcast was great!
One of the Bruswick brands needs to create a ball call "The Thumper"
Some pros have tried an "upside down" (cg above fingers, pin and int-dif in normal orientation), this is what i was expecting based on their title. Thank you for answering my curiosity, brunsnick
So cool! .. I was super impressed how well you were able to get the "thumper" to perform, despite being a really messed up layout. That surprised me. Definitely not a layout I would like, but man, you were still able to get it to perform relatively well, better than I thought it would. This was such a cool video. Thanks BrunsNick !!! .. furthering my bowling education !!
I just needed much more dry to get it through the pins. The cover still performs some even when you take the guts out of a core
@@brunsnick - man, I just love your knowledge of these things. The more I watch your videos, the more I learn, and the more I learn the better bowler I am becoming.
Thank you Nick!!!
@@squidly2112 you’re welcome!
Ironically, a one-handed, no-thumb bowler shot the front 9 against us last week with this ball and realized in the 10th frame that he was throwing it upside down the entire game. Essentially, he was throwing it with the MB near the top of his grip rather than the bottom. We couldn't tell, especially being a zero thumb ball (no audible thump to hear).
It may have been on purpose, as you see the ball reacts very differently. Some did three finger holes in a triangle, gave them essentially six different layouts on one ball.
I am pretty confident your initial track is still in the same place as normal and it actually flares “backwards” because the pin location will make your bow tie be below the thumb instead of above the fingers. I would imagine that “full roller track” you see is the later rings of oil after it has flared off the initial track.
Yes that is what happening, didn’t seem that way to my eyes, looked like it was starting inside the fingers and thumb and flaring over it. Wasn’t the case.
I didn’t believe it would thump but this has to make sense. I figured the way I throw and release the ball would decide but if the bow tie is moved then I suppose
Someone’s initial track line should be in the same place no matter what ball they throw. If you draw a line from your PAP through the pin and keep going, the bow tie will end up somewhere along that line. Below the bow tie, the flare rings will migrate to the left; above the bow tie they will migrate to the right (for a right hander). This is why super high track players couldn’t use the old “Rico” layout because the low pin pulled the bow tie down and made them flare over the finger holes.
I completely agree with that. I didn't understand why Brunsnick said the opposite. It is impossible for a layout to change the position of the first track (therefore of the PAP). The only way to avoid crossing the thumb hole with a PIN under the thumb is to place the pin at a minimum distance of 7 inches from the PAP so that the FLARE goes in the right direction.
@@JMLEBON next video maybe 🤷♂️ that would be fun
I feel like playing it safe as an example of why layouts matter, when you essentially are only rolling the span 5-10 degrees around the core/weight block, while it's at the same pitch. Had you laid it out as a lefty, or put a big hole through the center of the weight block (drill the thumb almost through the ball.) Those would be more dramatic differences.
Anywho, fantastic ball, no matter what. Good job Hammer!
For Nick, layouts don't matter...he'll still find a way to stone 8!
I’m haunted by them. I need therapy.
you should bowl on candlepins with a regular ball
I need to find a set
Fun video! Kinda looks to me, even intentional sabotage can’t even make the Effect look bad! Truly a great ball!
Nick, with high track players I believe layouts do matter. With a high track player if I drill ( using there pap) a ball any ball that ends up pin above or below there center grip no matter the surface it will still rolls over there fingers and thumb and do nothing.
If layouts don't matter, then PAPs don't matter.
The upside down layout has actually worked great for me on Sport conditions, but staying straighter. I have it on a Trailblazer Solid and an Innovator. 😂
Aw snap stirring the pot 😂🤷🏾♂️
Just a little curiosity and fun here 😎
Im here for it can't wait 😂 @brunsnick
Every time I hear that thump I keep getting a graphic in my head that reads "ENERGY LOSS!"
But now for sure I know that full roller layouts are legit... for full rollers.
I could go even more traditional full roller layout and open these flares up more. 😎
I'd watch that
The shoes match the color of the ball. Awesome review Nick!
Dude, those balls reacted the exact same to the naked eye. “It just doesn’t have that continuation”, yet the VERY next shot with the normal layout deflected EVEN MORE. You’re just helping to prove the point that layouts don’t matter to the vast majority of bowlers, who don’t bowl anything more competitive than their weekly league.
I mean that’s fine maybe I’ll get less layout questions going forward. 😆 but not every shot will go thru the pins perfect that’s why we look at averages and general tendencies over time.
The SPECTO overlay had them more different than a pin up vs pin down overlay to be fair.
😆great video Nick! Amazing the ball still got there. Think everyone should use thumper layouts 🤣🤣 fronts should last longer…🤣
REMAIN CALM!!!
ALL IS WELL!!!
ALLL IS WELLLL!!! --ANIMAL HOUSE Great Job, Nick
Got your back, Jack!!
13:44 (with the chuckle) 🤴
I just can’t live in peace, but if the crown fits!
JR. Comments may seem correct to the average bowler. Spector proves with departure angle the difference in layout performance.
Pin below the thumb w/ mass basis on positive side can be an effective layout for spinners and/or some high rev payers. EJ won a PBA national title with this layout a number of years ago.
THE 8 PIN KING RETURNS!!!
Hear ye! Hear ye!
Lol I don’t know what to believe anymore 😂
Chaos is the rule of thumb now.
At 4:01 you seem to be saying that the first ring started in a different location. Wouldn't the first ring be a constant as a function of release, and the thumping be due to the 2 balls flaring in different directions? I would expect the "odd" ball to take a few rotations to get onto the thumb and then a few more to get off it, so the thumping would be in the mid lane.... Thanks for doing this kind of content. I love these kind of topics and putting different layouts in people hands to see what happens.
Yes, initially I thought the track was being pulled in between the grip and flaring out but it was flaring towards the thumb and that way.
Didn’t expect it the thump!! Maby drill it pin down it’ll be fine!!! But that’s not the point i suppose. Cool video
I'm getting my Hammer Effect drilled today!!
Good choice! Have fun with it!
It's layouts X hand manipulation(touch). If you can't manipulate your release, then yes, layouts matter.
I'm a lefty that was "self taught" with the decade old reactive balls found on the racks, 99% right hand drilled. Bowled about a year with (RHD) equipment that wasn't mine.
Layouts matter when you understand your game and ball reaction(s)
next video you should drill a dot bowling ball and flip flop the dot and the actual pin, i think it'd be interesting to see how an upside-down bowling ball reacts. Maybe for gits and shiggles you should use the mass bias for the pin and the actual pin on the bottom of the ball as the mass bias.
I do like this idea, just have to figure out how to make it roll right.
So how does the flipped layout change where the first oil line appears on the ball. As in why does the first oil track on the "Thumper" appear inbetween the fingers and flare in the same direction? To me it would make more sense if the first oil ring appeared in the same place as the normal layout ball and then it would flare in the opposite direction (torward the fingers rather than away). Would it be possible if you could make a video about that or reccomend a video that explains that well?
I’m surprised how well that did. You should use another one but put a new pin on the opposite side of the ball from the actual pin (upside down) and see how it rolls! And just for the fun of it, put the pin right on top of your PAP
Thank you for proving layouts don't matter. If anyone missed it... the ball has the same motion regardless of the lay out. The only small difference is where you ball tracked. We can all agree that when the ball tracks over the thumb of fingers it is going to lose traction for a split second. Outside of that very small fact, the ball had just about the same exact motion. It even surprised you that you saw the same exact motion despite having the pin and MB flipped.
Exact same motion? Degrees different in entry and impact angle most shots and almost an arrow difference through the pins in continuation on most shots.
The last 15-20’ of the lane is more important than the first 40’.
Have Stevie Fresh run this layout in his model and get the axis migration.
I think the one thing we can all agree on.... CGNOMADDAH!
That’s for sure! There’s even a shirt out there for that.
François Lavoie used the layout with the mass bias a little to the right of the ring finger and the pin to the left of the thumb during the league competition with strikes and no problems with ball didn’t roll over the thumb hole. He had good reaction and all were strikes. Am going to plug a Black Widow and put the mass bias above and to the right of ring finger and the pin 2 inches from the thumb hole
Idk what is layout what or his PAP.
@brunsnick I saw it on the TV show. Stop the video recording on the exact moment he is holding the 900Global and saw that the mass bias was up towards his ring finger and pin towards the left of the thumb. Layout and PAP unknown to me. But it caught my eye and attention. Since I follow your videos they very interesting and provides knowledgeable insights of bowling ball reactions on the lanes. Thanks.
He's using a full roller layout, specific for people with minimal or zero tilt. Not exactly the same, but...
Overturned full roller layout
Know a guy who puts the pin in the thumb drilled out and called a boomer layout.
Nick was saying one thing, Effect was saying something different. If you throw that thing good it’s going to have great results whether it’s rolling or thumping.
So which one will strike more consistently over 3 games? Which one would you personally take?
Sounds like a good video to make Nick. Do a full game comparison.
Thank you for the specto data. If initial track is in original place, & flare goes towards the thumb; how would this roll for someone who is right handed, stands way left, bowls down & in on the left side, so their pocket is actually the 1-2?
Probably not terrific. I don’t recommend any layout that could roll over fingers or thumb.
As a one hand no thumber, I can turn the ball around and get a different ball roll. Rarely useful, but fun to mess around with. (of course, I can't do that anymore in competition)
Pesky rules. 😉
This is better science than Mr. Wizard
That was a great show!
Is it OK to drill mass bias in your track? Kind of like the no mercy from back in the day? My flare has rolled over the edge of my fingers and thumb for years now and i have no idea how to move it away.
The No Mercy had a different marker that wasn't the mass bias if I remember right. In most cases now, putting the mass bias in your track will smooth out the reaction, almost too much IMO.
For me i have a couple different releases. One of them is really up the back and basically full roll over the thumb a little. Then the other one has a track about 2in from the thumb
Hammer effect ball of the year! Calling it now
Everyone loves a good shit post. Haha.
Why else do we have the internet ?
Need to get the pin completely below the thumb hole. I saw several people using that about 10 or 12 years ago on short patterns for control. DeVaney went 279-247 in a round of eight match on cheetah against me in Modesto
NICK!!!
I just want to say thank you for this!!!
I know that you don’t recommend it…but Bro?!?!?! I’ve got to try this to see if it’s the answer to my cliff and dry lane issue.
3.0 holds and then jumps through the face…5 and 3 left…holds for a few frames then through the face again…any further left and there’s not enough gas to turn to corner.
Wondering if the flip flop might be slow enough to stop the over/under and let my angles tighter.
Absolutely not, maybe try a less aggressive ball so you can stay straighter longer.
@brunsnick Thanks! You know…sometimes you just have to talk me back off the ledge!!!???!!!😂😂😂😂
It might be just me. But when you showed the drillings side by side. It looks like the flipflop one has a slightly longer middle finger by maybe 1/8 when compared to the ring finger beside it. as the ring finger whole finishes around the bottom of the middle finger. Compared to normal where the top of ring finger hole is higher up compared to middle finger. Now how does the first flare change so much when the ball just lands on the lane unless the ball changes how it comes off the hand. Does the mass bias have that much of an effect on the ball in the air? I understand it will effect on the lane due to the weight block slightly different as the call slows down and the weight block has more of an effect on ball direction
It’s just you.
Lol! I notice the upside-down ball didn’t 8-pin.
True, superior!!
WHERE IS RANDY?!?! 😂🤣
I see a couple commenters getting PO’d about this video. 🤷🏽♂️
Now try a short pin layout, I bet you’ll see a bigger difference. This makes sense that it’s flaring over the fingers now since the asym core is upside down.
Very cool
Cool video, thanks for sharing. Not sure how much water it holds in the debate though. Typically when someone drills the ball that incorrectly they are a beginner bowler. It would have been cool to see a 100-120 average bowler do this same test. For your skillset, I would have liked to see you throw a pin up vs a pin down ball for this test.
I mean technically it was pin down. Pin way down 😁
My ball went from no hook as a pin down to being my most aggressive ball when I switched to pin up. . . It definetly matters 😂
I’d like to see you do something like 70x3x60 vs 40x5x20 or some normal random layout if you know what I mean. To see if we see any major difference.
If you can watch this video and think that layouts don’t matter, you’re missing the point. The ball with the normal layout is exiting the pin deck way more consistently than the thumper is. Where your ball exits the pin deck matters way more than any casual bowler would have you believe.
Exactly this.
Maybe you should have used the Uncle RICO layout.
🤣🤣
I Gotta ask what caused the new shirt design? lol
It’s a mystery 😎 call it another bowling pet peeve 😁
Would like to see a symmetrical ball comparison this way. Curious if it would thump or no effect.
So, for those that think you have just proved layouts don't matter, show them pin on pap.
My least favorite layout of all time.
@@brunsnick No argument there but it would be fun to watch =)
Hi Nick, I've always been curious about the difference in span between your two fingers - could you explain a little bit?
Sarge Easter Grip - check out these 2 vids.
ruclips.net/video/Ax8H7MisJms/видео.htmlsi=1cgH_YN8l4198NzG
ruclips.net/video/dAbFCPtqD-8/видео.htmlsi=JXJ6Qx5Ym5zbyIDK
Thumper deflected on almost every shot, if not all of them. What would happen if one tried this for 10 frames, or 3 games. Just a lot of thumping I imagine.
If the lanes were dry enough it could be good! But I would imagine I may need my spare ball.
The ball loses energy each time it rolls over the thumbhole, but the minimal deflection was still enough to get the X.
Great video. Can you do a video on what those numbers mean? Like the 60-whatever
Hello nick. I'm a 2 hander that lives to throw backup ball when the right is thrashed. You said you like exploring odd layouts. What do you think the best layout would be for a right handed backup ball? I find shorter pin to pap have a stronger roll and longer pin to pap are the most inconsistent. I still track in the same spot (not on the left hander side of the fingers).
Yeah I’m not really sure. Sounds like you need some trial and error time there.
Great video as always, but why are your finger holes like that lol. Just noticed that, I know I'm probably late and you've been asked this a million times
Sarge Easter Grip
ruclips.net/video/Ax8H7MisJms/видео.htmlsi=1cgH_YN8l4198NzG
ruclips.net/video/dAbFCPtqD-8/видео.htmlsi=JXJ6Qx5Ym5zbyIDK
@@brunsnick perfect! Thank you!! I'd never heard of that grip. And thanks for the stroll down your memory lane
Stick with the upside down layout. Thumper is a cool nickname 😆
It’s got a nice clang to it.
Only Nick is crazy enough to try this.
I’ll try anything once…. Probably
I WAS JUST LOOKING AT YOUR FINGER HOLE POSITIONS. ARE BOTH FINGERS DRILLED FOR FINGERTIP GRIP OR IS YOUR RING FINGER DRILLED CONVENTIONAL. I HAVE WANTED TO TRY THAT. THOUGHT IT MIGHT HELP WITH REVS. T
HANKS
Doesn’t help with revs. It’s more for comfort.
Sarge Easter Grip - welcome to the channel, be sure to subscribe!
ruclips.net/video/Ax8H7MisJms/видео.htmlsi=1cgH_YN8l4198NzG
ruclips.net/video/dAbFCPtqD-8/видео.htmlsi=JXJ6Qx5Ym5zbyIDK
#shotsfired lol
Nahhhhh lol
@brunsnick oh no my man. Shots definitely fired. Especially with that tshirt you're wearing lol. You knew what you were doing lol
The shirt is completely unrelated and has been up on the site for weeks.
So that layout would be good for the spin biscuits. It would raise the track?!
No it's not good. Do not recommend.
I asked my proshop guy to drill mine for the transition burn. He drilled it weak of course because I should have told him and I want the B!tch to hook. That's what I get for being the guy who stands right and lets it rip. lol
On another note I hit it the Effect with 3k pad hoping that i get a little more backend motion. I'm not a fan of the compound and I can never get my ball to react how I want. I either have to remove the compound and go to 3k, 4k or 5k. But, I lack the revs for how fast I like to throw.
Surface definitely your friend for high speed mismatch !
Hey Nick, how about doing a vid on the different drilling patterns. Maybe take the same ball and drill it for the different shapes? Traction,continuous, and angular/skid well i guess there is straight also. What balls would be best for different layouts RG/DIF/InDif My PSO drilled my effect with Brunswick max hook. max arch layout. BTW the Effect really helped me out in league last night. Fits perfect between my Widow 2.0 and Envy tour.
Thanks John! Maybe will!
@@brunsnick Should i be drilling every ball with the same layout, and select balls for core numbers, or should I get the same ball maybe in different cover stock and drill in different patterns, or select by core number for shape and drill a "matching" pattern?
@@johndor1904 I always suggest using 1 -2 main layouts tops, and picking the right ball and surfaces to fill your arsenal.
Still the 8 pin king 😆
Can’t escape it. Ever.
Did this years ago for bowlers. They roll great on short. Do it on a Symm and they roll really good on short.
Will this be on a house pattern or something flatter?
My normal house shot. Crown Jewel 43’
i throw full roller- should i adjust my layout?
How are your layouts now?
Looks to me like a small tweak to the drilled position so it doesn't track over the holes would make these balls, for the most part would be indistinguishable to most bowlers
How would you tweak it?
@@brunsnick I would think a small rotation away from the flare, but still keeping it mostly upside down, would probably do the trick. Not enough to drastically change the layout, but enough to eliminate the thump-thump. (I haven't drilled a ball in over a decade so I might be a bit rusty)
This video has one dislike, and I think I have a pretty good idea of who it is.
Just 1? Dang. It’s early.
Jrs too busy actually bowling tourneys🤷♂️
Yes it did strike...but it had more deflection and less drive through the pins. That being said...us league bowlers probably wouldn't see a difference...pros definitely will!
What about putting the thumb hole on the mass bias?
My main layouts for asyms all do that.
@Brunsnick is there a benefit to that? I just got an Asym and have not had it drilled. Is that a recommendation?
I do it mainly for simplicity and so all my layouts are the same for reviews and comparisons. Generally, when drilling the mass bias with the thumb you’ll increase the ending intermediate differential.
Hi, Nick I bowl league thatapplies mid oil on the lanes. I bought a DV8 GRUDGE 12lbs used my PSO specs show this ball good for my lane. The ball originally is for right hand im a lefty PSO used original finger tip hole with pin on right side the mass bias just below thumb hole. I threw couple shot lane was dry ball would not hook. Last night through ball during leag mid oil applied ball not hooking as much as expected. Is the PSO correct in putting the Pin on right side pin up is that the cause of the ball not hooking. My original ball is hammer raw solid that hooks on the dry but goes straight on mid oil. Thank you for your advice.
Don’t know, sorry. A used 10 year old ball and I don’t know anything about your game. Talk to your PSO.
I have an old ball drilled for a left hander i am a right hander. Hokk is not consistent. Would that be the issue
Likely yes.
He invented that
Interesting
If the USBC sees this video, they will ban drilling balls this way. (I say this in jest)
Shhhh don’t tell. It’s my only chance to have an edge!
@@brunsnickdon’t worry, I won’t! 😂 I respect the Thumper layout!
On the PBA League Francois Lavoie did this with a ball and it looked halfway decent (rolled similar to urethane/short pin)
years ago we used to drill balls like this for full rollers...must be what is going on...(1990's)
Based on what I've seen, layout did not matter that much... JR Raymond is right! - The 2 balls rolled and reacted not exactly the same but very similar even though the layout for the other ball was intentionally messed up!
Noticed Frankie used a similar layout on his eternity pi in PBA league on Sunday I thought it was odd
Noice!!
What if you used mass bias to cg for a layout
So if you were a no thumb bowler with that layout it would roll okay? I want to see you drill the Effect using the real pin, not the dot pin.
Are you going to leave the Weird one as is or do a different Layout on it?
Might throw it some more!
Cool video talk tech bowling Brunsnick