Jari: I will be using my practical, rugged fighting carbine. Jenny: I will be using my highly tuned, tricked out race rifle. Bloke: ... Bloke: EXTRUDED ALUMINIUM FENCE-POST.
I imagine the issue with the boys using Jennys rifle going down, is maybe reflex. With their rifles theres the expectation of the upwards recoil (even if subconscious) , so as soon the trigger is pulled they puling it down. I expect it wouldn't be an issue with prolonged use. Speaking of her rifle, visually alone it looks a treat to fire.
@@BlokeontheRange No, I didn't mean flinching! :o :s More a natural, subtle handling. From observing you shoot, it seems very stable, any movement as far as I can tell would be very slight. Oh im not good with words to explain :( That or its like Jerry said. its just not tuned to you guys.
@@BlokeontheRange says a lot for tuning muzzel devices for the shooter's preference. I noticed that when you and yari were shooting jenny's rifle, it appears to pivot around the chamber, not so much a rise as a 'rock'. thanks for the upload, really enjoyable little video, bloke.
@@BlokeontheRange I wouldn't call that flinching. Flinching is anticipating the shot and moving the muzzle before the bullet has left the barrel. Whereas for recoil management it's quite common to push the muzzle down as part of the follow through especially when shooting fast.
What interested me was the way rounds were ejected from Jari's rifle when fired by Jenny compared to Mike. I suppose it's possibly due to their using their own magazines and different manufacturer ammunition?
Same. Because grips are so cheap everyone I know also has the more vertical grip. The back swept grip maybe is better for prone shooting, but I don't know anyone that prefers it due to the wrist contorting that has to be done.
Considering that a lot of competition paintball shooters went to straight, birds-beak and even reverse angle grips in matches like speedball and airball, I'm not shocked at all that a grip angle from another century doesn't fit with some people's stances and egros. Even things like desired length of pull have changed a lot over time.
I wonder if the grip angle debate doesn’t come from everyone trying to use the shortest LOP possible? I was issued a M16A4 in basic, M4 in the line, and currently shoot a KP15 and another lower no different from a M16A1 and have no complaints.
The comments about weight reminded me of how I was a bit surprised at how the light weight an LPVO made my carbine a bit topheavy. A bit sad, because I really like how it handles with irons or even just a dot.
Yeah I like the way a red dot and magnifier set up feels despite being worse in several ways. Nothing I do is that far or that important so it's kind of worth the performance hit for the handling
I wonder if Jennys AR has rifle length gas system. I've red that rifle length has milder recoil than carbine but it needs 18 inc barrel to work reliably. Also 18" barrel should give flatter arc closeish ranges due higher muzzle velocity. Hmmh I'll be getting AR much like Jennys but less fancy as a multipurpose rifle... at some point.
Almost certainly has a rifle or mid length gas system. 14.5" barrels work fine with mid length and 18" is fine for rifle length. Yes the rifle length gas systems are milder. If familiar with the snappyness of DI ARs, the snap of a rifle length gas system is muted compared to carbine length. If you do put something together similar to Jenny's rifle consider a pencil barrel. The weight saving will be more than 1lb and it will be less forward weight. Accuracy for pencil barrels often is more than adequate as well; low volume of fire often indistinguishable, high volume of fire the cone of fire opens slightly.
It’s light recoil is due to adjustable gas block, compensator and lightened BCG. Those are basic stuff for competition AR. some go as far as using alluminium BCG to reduce it’s weight as much as possible and thus, reduce weight that moves inside as much as possible. That also allows to reduce gases to BCG much more than usual. Obviously, such BCG won’t hold for more than say 6k of rounds.
Loosing our semi-auto rifles just over 2 years ago under jacinda's reign of power still hurts. the real problem is that no other present political party is prepared to re-instate our gun laws here in NZL. That's why we currently look with envy at countries like Finland where you can still enjoy sport shooting. We are still better then the aussies and the brits but unfortunately the politicians are not learning from countries like Norway where a mass shooting incident triggered NO restrictions for law abiding firearm owners. Gun control is easy, crime control is hard.
In Australia, the heavily restricted laws in relation to semi auto military styles of weapons, was not magic or an act of God. I came across one shooting scene, with many cars, bodies and motorcycles were strewn haphazardly along a main road. Had I not stopped and deviated my direction, me and my 4 passengers would likely have died. An additional 2~3 such events had occurred around the same time. The prime minister under advisement introduced a gun buy back policy. ( fair prices being offered. ) till this time, Australia had a fairly liberal attitude towards guns. However under the circumstances something needed to be done. More than a dozen people being killed arbitrarily every few weeks; left little choice for drastic action. ( we still have rifle and pistol shooting clubs. ) Neither the USA nor Australia have/had a well regulated militia to guard against heavy handed government policies, or indeed large heavy calibre military semi automatic weaponry. Farmers and those that actually need such weapons still have access following checking and yet more checking. Since the instigation of specific weapons bans, we have noted a very significant decline in instances of random murders in the double digits.
@@stevenhoman2253 Punishing law abiding people for the actions of criminals is morally reprehensible no mater how you slice it. Moreover, that argument is fallacious criminals commit murder so rather then impowering law abiding people to defend themselves and their loved ones you disarm them!? That makes it easier for a criminal (who by definition don't follow the law) to commit violent offenses including murder (even with an import ban and no legal firearms production/sales, firearms are easy for anyone to manufacture these days and blueprints easily obtained off the internet, so you will NEVER completely stop gun crime). In fact we see a marked increase in violent crime every time gun restrictions are introduced and everywhere they are introduced... Now I must also address the elephant in the room, there is a distinct and intractable correlation between firearm restrictions and increasing government authoritarianism. Again we see this in all cases where such policies have been implemented.
@@stevenhoman2253 if someone drink drives and kills someone in your area, should you loose your driving license ?decline in instances of random murders in the double digits sort of thing thing government can always say but is BS
In Australia, we experienced several significant massacres within a relatively short time frame. Had it been simply the one episode, that could be considered an overreaction perhaps.
@@stevenhoman2253 Your explanation does not stand. Look at the balanced approach Norway had after brevik -the lunatic. They looked at it and had a 10 year cool down period and now they discusse what to do. They did NOT rush a law although they had the perfect excuse to do so. More to this, the cop killed in Auckland by a drug mule was shot with an AK after the ban. As I said, gun control is easy, crime control is hard.
Being an owner of a stock Bushmaster M17s, I thought "Oh hell. It's going to get laughed at, compared to the modified ARs. The trigger is a joke, the ergonomics are clumsy at best, and while it's fairly well balanced, it's too heavy for its size." After watching all three shoot it, and not take a crap on it, I thought "Okay. Maybe, the rifle isn't as bad as I think it is." I could still be mistaken. I acquired mine back in 1999, when the only bullpup rifles in the US were this and the nearly impossible to obtain Steyr AUG. Things have changed a bit since then. Now you can get Steyr AUGs and IWI Tavors, if you have the money, but the Bushmaster M17s is difficult to find. I thought about having K&M Aerospace modify it with cuts to lighten the outer housing and improve the trigger, remove the raised sights / carry / charging handle, etc. Maybe, I should seriously look into that... when I can actually afford it. I don't think this rifle will ever have real collectors value, but who knows how many are still out there, unmodified? They've been out of production for over 15 years.
I would leave it stock, look at all the weird weapons on Forgotten Weapons that Ian gets to play with, and then go look up how much a lot of those weapons sell for now compared to when they were being produced. It might not be some weird one of five ever produced with custom engravings and had been used by a famous bank robber, but there's definitely some collector value and it's only going to go up as they become more and more rare.
Short answer from an M17S owner who has tinkered with the trigger; not really. You can swap parts to a certain extent, but the big problem is the connecting rod from the trigger at the front to the FCG at the rear. Every bullpup has this issue to a greater or lesser extent. Whatever the connecting rod/transfer bar is made of, it's going to flex, "absorbing" a bit of your trigger pull and giving that spongy feel. K&M Aerospace makes a roller bearing cam trigger for the M17S that slightly changes the geometry and lightens the pull, which helps quite a bit.
@@lonewolftek Thanks for the reply. I have 4 Bullpups and know what you mean about sponginess. My AUG-A3-M1 isn't bad but My FAMAS MAS223 isn't very good. My Kel-Tec KSG is average and The worst is My Hi-Point 995 carbine in a High Tower Armory Bullpup chassis which makes it into a much nicer looking gun has the crappy trigger hooked up to the bullpup linkage. Wish you the best.
I hardly ever hear anything about the Rec7 rifles here in the states. Anytime piston ARs are brought up it’s always POF, LWRC, LMT, and PWS to a lesser extent. Great to see some content on it
To prevent the "toe" of the M-17S {or most any long gun stock} from digging like that ,lean into it. Alter the point of contact with your upper chest. Instead of an acute angle between your shoulder and the stock; you present more surface area to spread the impulse to. Instead of putting all of the recoil into the one spot; it gets spread across the whole buttplate/pad. [This also makes a high sight line more comfortable to use ,by altering your head's position.]
Ahaha godbless you for bringing out the m17s. I'm glad to see current videos with it. Possible to import some K&M Aerospace parts for it to the UK ? or are you keeping it OG? "You DO shoot a glock tho.." LOL nice
I don't shoot Weaver, practically nobody serious has shot that since the 80's and there's no pistol being used in this video anyway so I'm not sure where your comment is coming from, sorry... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@BlokeontheRange Well I don't know what you would call it but basically you were exposing your ribs toward the target. it's hard to explain but watch yourself in the vid you will see what I mean. Compared to the other 2, Which they were putting their chest flat towards the target.. you were more side ways. I'm not criticizing but I'm curious as to why. Just how you were thought? More comfortable?
I have an absolutely classic rifle stance, cos I learned that way as a range monkey and it gives optimal natural alignment. I guess the other two learned in the Finnish Defence Forces to stand more square on due to body armour etc.
@@BlokeontheRange but the distance above the center line of the barrel makes a big difference in a weapon as it gets further from the center line. I am not trying to be a jerk but seriously the lower an optic is from the barrel center the more accurate it is. I am sincerely looking to help people be more accurate. I shoot AR type rifles for close range and I have a lot of friends with much more military experience than I have and for 30 plus years I have been taught that the height over the barrel is fairly important. I truly just ran across your video and subscribed and enjoyed your content. I am particularly interested in the bullpup which I believed you called an AR18 if I am not mistaken. Which manufacturer makes that model if you don't mind me asking. I just want to reinforce that I am not a spammer of any sort and I have always used more laser devices and only recently became qualified for national service rifle competition Nationwide in North America so I can complete with the best of the best and credentials yet no formal military service. Most of my mentors were Law Enforcement and or Military personnel and have trained me formally for the last 10 years or so. I enjoyed your video and I am just one of those nerds as we call them looking to ask and pose sincere questions about things that I may not quite understand. You caught my interest with the same type of honest advice and actually going out and shooting the different rifles and discussing the difference between what each shooter experienced. I have a very old AR15 with a carry handle which I had to modify to become state compliant with our newer draconian laws as they are trying to ban all guns here in USA. I am mostly a long range guy and love the bullpup design because you don't have to give up barrel length but the design is more complicated and harder to maintain. I also would like to let you know that I always questioned the Europeans use of the 9mm and after much careful thought I realized that a 9mm AR platform is one of the best home urban self defense systems because of over penetration of say a 5.56 NATO round. I don't want to get too crazy with my opinion but thank you for your video and if you could let me know what the bullpups manufacturer is it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
Well aluminium is often used in electornics for heatsinks, since it conducts and dissipates heat pretty well. So It should handle without any problems.
Mandatory in school for a few generations plus tons of undubbed music, film, TV, games and tech in a nation full of huge nerds. Downside is that, now that the English speaking generations make up most of the workforce, media, both big and social, massively over-report insignificant stuff from English speaking countries and many absolutely important news from elsewhere in the EU get very little media exposure since there's simply so few reporters who speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, etc. Our main trade partner is Germany and much of our future is determined by pressures from the larger EU member states so this is a tad awkward. It's a feedback loop that makes even fewer future media and business professions likely to learn other languages at school and so on.
@@Gagis Yep, my theory for a long time has been that dubbing kills English knowledge in a country. The nordic countries are pretty good at English. I grew up in Sweden, contrary to what my name indicates, and it's pretty much the same thing there. I learned from watching movies, playing games and having most of my literature in university being in English. Having experience from Germany and Spain, the English knowledge is much lower, and I think dubbing has a lot to do with it.
seems like it. i noticed for both of them the recoil was soft enough to simply nudge them backwards only slightly and they might have thought the tiny whiplash was the gun kicking down
The bushmaster looks like someone studied up on some luty guns and decided to attempt their own version. Looks like something you could practically order to build from mcmaster carr. Not a knock against it, just amusing.
Fire control group is AR15. Since Bushmaster were making AR15's, there's as many AR15 parts in it as possible, including the bolt head. The original design had the Leader triangular bolt head (and the new K&M ones do again, which is super cool)
@@BlokeontheRange Interesting! I have a gen 1 M17S (shorter mag well and no screws on the receiver) and the FCG is straight Kalashnikov, to the point where the hammer still has the autosear on the front. The front of the bolt head has the same dimensions as a standard AR-15, but it’s missing the gas rings and the cam pin is off by 90 degrees (exits the left of the bolt vs under the gas key). I know they changed the takedown pins (mine move ~1/4” versus being removed entirely), I wonder what else they changed between the generations? imgur.com/a/fxHk7VZ
*Direct Impingement* is cool and all, I just don't understand how it works enough to be comfortable using it in any of my builds. I prefer *Gas Piston* over anything, but even *Recoil Operation* will do as well. What I do, it's based off of my personal ability to understand how it works as well as my rating of how easy it is to produce. For example, a *Straight Pull Bolt-Action* would probably be the easiest, of anything that can feed multiple rounds, with *Recoil Operation* being my go-to for a .380 submachine gun made of easy-to-acquire parts, and for anything more reliable than that I'd use *Gas Piston* similar to how an _AK_ or a _VZ_ works. Maybe some day I'll learn properly how other intermediate firing systems work, but for now those are the best I know for the situations described.
In terms of the AR-15, it’s really simple: Gas is fed via the gas tube & gas key into a chamber in the BCG. Due to gas rings on the back of the bolt, the gas has nowhere else to go but toward the back of the chamber, which pushes on the carrier, turning the cam & unlocking the bolt. Any excess pressure is bled via the holes you can see in the side of the BCG visible from the ejection port. I tend to call it a Stoner Gas system since it is entirely unique to AR-10s/AR-15s, not being the same as DI in the MAS-40 or AG-42 systems.
Jari: I will be using my practical, rugged fighting carbine.
Jenny: I will be using my highly tuned, tricked out race rifle.
Bloke: ...
Bloke: EXTRUDED ALUMINIUM FENCE-POST.
Thick FSPs are pretty easy for Middle aged eyes to focus on tho,
@@509Gman Female Shooting People?
@@superyamagucci I'm curious about this too. Some new lingo has passed me by.
Front Sight Post, ya goobers.
Jari looks exactly like what you'd expect a Finnish guy who owns a millitary hardware retail company to look like.
yes, he almost looks familiar
Hes just the CEO, not owner. The owner has a quite different style :D
So.. your saying the stereotype is true?
Duck dynasty TV beard vibes.
Outdoor company peeps have to look crusty and grizzled when filming.
Wearing camo and high vis to board meetings. Really
Jari and Jenni arriving with their decked out AR-15's whilst Bloke just rocking up with the space gun
Bloke: "I like longer, and I normally grip traditionally."
cue "will it strip?" theme tune 😂
Hahaha, I remember that episode. Knuckle deep.
The bushmasters trigger resetting is almost louder than it firing.
Wasn't prepared to enjoy this as much as I did. Mike is a great host, and Jenny makes up for Jari's natural reticence. Thanks.
Isn’t reticence a Finnish trait?
Jari is loud and talkative for a Finn...
I imagine the issue with the boys using Jennys rifle going down, is maybe reflex. With their rifles theres the expectation of the upwards recoil (even if subconscious) , so as soon the trigger is pulled they puling it down. I expect it wouldn't be an issue with prolonged use.
Speaking of her rifle, visually alone it looks a treat to fire.
Nerp. You're accusing us of flinching, lol! The muzzle very much flips downwards for both of us :)
@@BlokeontheRange No, I didn't mean flinching! :o :s
More a natural, subtle handling. From observing you shoot, it seems very stable, any movement as far as I can tell would be very slight. Oh im not good with words to explain :(
That or its like Jerry said. its just not tuned to you guys.
Oh, it's only a slight dip, that's for sure. But it's there and it's perceivable.
@@BlokeontheRange says a lot for tuning muzzel devices for the shooter's preference.
I noticed that when you and yari were shooting jenny's rifle, it appears to pivot around the chamber, not so much a rise as a 'rock'.
thanks for the upload, really enjoyable little video, bloke.
@@BlokeontheRange I wouldn't call that flinching. Flinching is anticipating the shot and moving the muzzle before the bullet has left the barrel. Whereas for recoil management it's quite common to push the muzzle down as part of the follow through especially when shooting fast.
Jenny's competition training really shows, she settles into her stance and makes sure she is solid and stable, very visible
I'm always so enchanted by watching Europeans shoot modern sporting rifles. You earned a subscriber!
What interested me was the way rounds were ejected from Jari's rifle when fired by Jenny compared to Mike. I suppose it's possibly due to their using their own magazines and different manufacturer ammunition?
Jenny having the more vertical pistol grip is big. I have the same issue with the standard angle. Feels like I'm giving myself carpal tunnel
Same, I haven’t shot ARs very much but I had been wondering if I was the only one who found the angle to be fairly uncomfortable.
Same. Because grips are so cheap everyone I know also has the more vertical grip. The back swept grip maybe is better for prone shooting, but I don't know anyone that prefers it due to the wrist contorting that has to be done.
Considering that a lot of competition paintball shooters went to straight, birds-beak and even reverse angle grips in matches like speedball and airball, I'm not shocked at all that a grip angle from another century doesn't fit with some people's stances and egros. Even things like desired length of pull have changed a lot over time.
Magpul K2 grip, looked like.
I run em too . . .
I wonder if the grip angle debate doesn’t come from everyone trying to use the shortest LOP possible? I was issued a M16A4 in basic, M4 in the line, and currently shoot a KP15 and another lower no different from a M16A1 and have no complaints.
2:49 "Is it a stock item?"
Ba-dom-tish
I love how commonplace and normal this sort of thing is becoming
Bloke looking fit AF
This was probably my favorite video from the trip so far!👍Finland is just brimming with great RUclips content!
I'm just glad the bushy didn't end up in a hydraulic press channel crush test while you were there 😆👍
Are the "Leningrad Cowboys" still performing?
@@berryreading4809 it’s Finland not Australia
I like these rifle/shooter comparisons. Shooting being so subjective, it's rarely made so plain.
I'm tickled by how the boys like Jenny's rifle.
Interesting comparisons! Looking forward to more "which one would you steals?"!
I like the different takes on the platform. Same caliber and similar mechanics with distinct shooter experiences.
Fun watching the exchange of 3 different set up rifles .
I have noticed my A.R. 180B is noticeably lighter recoiling than any of my A.R. 15‘s, it also produces significantly huge fireballs
It's not like pow pow, it's push push.
I like the idea that Jenny just randomly found a bunch of AR parts lying around here and there and decided to build her rifle off of that.
That’s how it happens, you trade out a couple parts and then BOOM! Another rifle magically appears.
Are you sure Jenny didn't bring her minirifle? 😂 What a smooth shooting dragster of a rifle.
The comments about weight reminded me of how I was a bit surprised at how the light weight an LPVO made my carbine a bit topheavy. A bit sad, because I really like how it handles with irons or even just a dot.
Yeah I like the way a red dot and magnifier set up feels despite being worse in several ways. Nothing I do is that far or that important so it's kind of worth the performance hit for the handling
Finally! A trigger comparison that the Glock wins!
^^
A great comparison of the different personalized firearms. Thank you!
An interesting discussion between people showing differences in guns firing the same cartridge.
Her shooting posture is fantastic
She clearly has very good core strength, probably could outswim a fish!
Ahhh... Hätlilä. Brings back memories from 2006, mostly from inside a medics Pasi or Sirra. :)
Skipped to the M17 and went back
I wonder if Jennys AR has rifle length gas system. I've red that rifle length has milder recoil than carbine but it needs 18 inc barrel to work reliably. Also 18" barrel should give flatter arc closeish ranges due higher muzzle velocity. Hmmh I'll be getting AR much like Jennys but less fancy as a multipurpose rifle... at some point.
Almost certainly has a rifle or mid length gas system. 14.5" barrels work fine with mid length and 18" is fine for rifle length. Yes the rifle length gas systems are milder. If familiar with the snappyness of DI ARs, the snap of a rifle length gas system is muted compared to carbine length. If you do put something together similar to Jenny's rifle consider a pencil barrel. The weight saving will be more than 1lb and it will be less forward weight. Accuracy for pencil barrels often is more than adequate as well; low volume of fire often indistinguishable, high volume of fire the cone of fire opens slightly.
You can see her gas block in the second to last mlok slit. It does appear to be rifle length
It’s light recoil is due to adjustable gas block, compensator and lightened BCG. Those are basic stuff for competition AR. some go as far as using alluminium BCG to reduce it’s weight as much as possible and thus, reduce weight that moves inside as much as possible. That also allows to reduce gases to BCG much more than usual. Obviously, such BCG won’t hold for more than say 6k of rounds.
What a fantastic video. Great to see the perspective of three true SMEs from outside of the traditional US-based field of experience
Loosing our semi-auto rifles just over 2 years ago under jacinda's reign of power still hurts. the real problem is that no other present political party is prepared to re-instate our gun laws here in NZL. That's why we currently look with envy at countries like Finland where you can still enjoy sport shooting.
We are still better then the aussies and the brits but unfortunately the politicians are not learning from countries like Norway where a mass shooting incident triggered NO restrictions for law abiding firearm owners.
Gun control is easy, crime control is hard.
In Australia, the heavily restricted laws in relation to semi auto military styles of weapons, was not magic or an act of God. I came across one shooting scene, with many cars, bodies and motorcycles were strewn haphazardly along a main road. Had I not stopped and deviated my direction, me and my 4 passengers would likely have died. An additional 2~3 such events had occurred around the same time.
The prime minister under advisement introduced a gun buy back policy. ( fair prices being offered. ) till this time, Australia had a fairly liberal attitude towards guns. However under the circumstances something needed to be done. More than a dozen people being killed arbitrarily every few weeks; left little choice for drastic action. ( we still have rifle and pistol shooting clubs. )
Neither the USA nor Australia have/had a well regulated militia to guard against heavy handed government policies, or indeed large heavy calibre military semi automatic weaponry. Farmers and those that actually need such weapons still have access following checking and yet more checking.
Since the instigation of specific weapons bans, we have noted a very significant decline in instances of random murders in the double digits.
@@stevenhoman2253 Punishing law abiding people for the actions of criminals is morally reprehensible no mater how you slice it. Moreover, that argument is fallacious criminals commit murder so rather then impowering law abiding people to defend themselves and their loved ones you disarm them!? That makes it easier for a criminal (who by definition don't follow the law) to commit violent offenses including murder (even with an import ban and no legal firearms production/sales, firearms are easy for anyone to manufacture these days and blueprints easily obtained off the internet, so you will NEVER completely stop gun crime). In fact we see a marked increase in violent crime every time gun restrictions are introduced and everywhere they are introduced... Now I must also address the elephant in the room, there is a distinct and intractable correlation between firearm restrictions and increasing government authoritarianism. Again we see this in all cases where such policies have been implemented.
@@stevenhoman2253 if someone drink drives and kills someone in your area, should you loose your driving license ?decline in instances of random murders in the double digits sort of thing thing government can always say but is BS
In Australia, we experienced several significant massacres within a relatively short time frame. Had it been simply the one episode, that could be considered an overreaction perhaps.
@@stevenhoman2253
Your explanation does not stand. Look at the balanced approach Norway had after brevik -the lunatic. They looked at it and had a 10 year cool down period and now they discusse what to do. They did NOT rush a law although they had the perfect excuse to do so.
More to this, the cop killed in Auckland by a drug mule was shot with an AK after the ban. As I said, gun control is easy, crime control is hard.
Ah, Hätilä, memories for anyone who spent their army time at Parolannummi. I've only shot a Sako RK-62 there :)
“Tonight, on bottom glock”
“Bloke eats a 7.62”
“Jari test his new rifle he stole from Bloke”
“And Jenny gets shot in the fucking chest”
Jari: 😎😅
Bloke:🤨🍵🧐
Jenny:😍🥳
Well met Bloke, great folks to explore with. I'd steal hers.
I'd like to see a video where you upgrade the Bushmaster. That one with a trigger like on the MDR.
Being an owner of a stock Bushmaster M17s, I thought "Oh hell. It's going to get laughed at, compared to the modified ARs. The trigger is a joke, the ergonomics are clumsy at best, and while it's fairly well balanced, it's too heavy for its size." After watching all three shoot it, and not take a crap on it, I thought "Okay. Maybe, the rifle isn't as bad as I think it is." I could still be mistaken. I acquired mine back in 1999, when the only bullpup rifles in the US were this and the nearly impossible to obtain Steyr AUG. Things have changed a bit since then. Now you can get Steyr AUGs and IWI Tavors, if you have the money, but the Bushmaster M17s is difficult to find.
I thought about having K&M Aerospace modify it with cuts to lighten the outer housing and improve the trigger, remove the raised sights / carry / charging handle, etc. Maybe, I should seriously look into that... when I can actually afford it. I don't think this rifle will ever have real collectors value, but who knows how many are still out there, unmodified? They've been out of production for over 15 years.
I would leave it stock, look at all the weird weapons on Forgotten Weapons that Ian gets to play with, and then go look up how much a lot of those weapons sell for now compared to when they were being produced. It might not be some weird one of five ever produced with custom engravings and had been used by a famous bank robber, but there's definitely some collector value and it's only going to go up as they become more and more rare.
I shot an associates M17. Its wonderful. They pop up unexpectedly in funshops
Jari going full Viking.
Wow, the Ladies rifle really doesn't seem to move!!!
Well, it’s sporting rifle. Main reason is the adjustable gas block, compensator/muzzle break and reduced weight BCG
I wonder if the trigger could be improved on the Bushmaster M17S since it uses AR15 fire control group? Fun video. I enjoyed it. Great rifles
Short answer from an M17S owner who has tinkered with the trigger; not really. You can swap parts to a certain extent, but the big problem is the connecting rod from the trigger at the front to the FCG at the rear. Every bullpup has this issue to a greater or lesser extent. Whatever the connecting rod/transfer bar is made of, it's going to flex, "absorbing" a bit of your trigger pull and giving that spongy feel. K&M Aerospace makes a roller bearing cam trigger for the M17S that slightly changes the geometry and lightens the pull, which helps quite a bit.
@@lonewolftek Thanks for the reply. I have 4 Bullpups and know what you mean about sponginess. My AUG-A3-M1 isn't bad but My FAMAS MAS223 isn't very good. My Kel-Tec KSG is average and The worst is My Hi-Point 995 carbine in a High Tower Armory Bullpup chassis which makes it into a much nicer looking gun has the crappy trigger hooked up to the bullpup linkage. Wish you the best.
All sweet rifles. Great video as always
I hardly ever hear anything about the Rec7 rifles here in the states. Anytime piston ARs are brought up it’s always POF, LWRC, LMT, and PWS to a lesser extent. Great to see some content on it
I don't think I've watched a video with come many adds. But loved the content.
Thanks
RUclips places the ads, not me :)
@@BlokeontheRange not a problem keep up the great work 👍.
The I.B.U.S.! International Bullpup Utility Sporter. Other than the trigger, there is the heat build up under the cheek after 3 mags.
To prevent the "toe" of the M-17S {or most any long gun stock} from digging like that ,lean into it.
Alter the point of contact with your upper chest. Instead of an acute angle between your shoulder and the stock; you present more surface area to spread the impulse to.
Instead of putting all of the recoil into the one spot; it gets spread across the whole buttplate/pad.
[This also makes a high sight line more comfortable to use ,by altering your head's position.]
Ahaha godbless you for bringing out the m17s. I'm glad to see current videos with it. Possible to import some K&M Aerospace parts for it to the UK ? or are you keeping it OG?
"You DO shoot a glock tho.." LOL nice
Great video idea, well done sir! 👍🏻👍🏻
what are those gloves Jari's wearing? they look nice and minimal
Mechanix is the brand. SKD Pig gloves are great too
Did Jenni and Jari get to try the WWSD from the last trip?
yes, they have tried during the winter brutality
Would like to have seen the T2 aswell for comparison and what they thought of it.
What kind of camo pattern is that?
Finnish M05
Love the Aussie M17S!
A little of the old "walk a mile in the other guy's/gal's moccasins" as it were... o~0 Nice... ^~^
Jenny's rifle is rock solid, no climb. Very nice.
Great video
I'm surprised at your stance.. the britt guy shoot weaver? do you guys still shoot weaver in the uk? Curious
I don't shoot Weaver, practically nobody serious has shot that since the 80's and there's no pistol being used in this video anyway so I'm not sure where your comment is coming from, sorry... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@BlokeontheRange Well I don't know what you would call it but basically you were exposing your ribs toward the target. it's hard to explain but watch yourself in the vid you will see what I mean. Compared to the other 2, Which they were putting their chest flat towards the target.. you were more side ways. I'm not criticizing but I'm curious as to why. Just how you were thought? More comfortable?
I have an absolutely classic rifle stance, cos I learned that way as a range monkey and it gives optimal natural alignment. I guess the other two learned in the Finnish Defence Forces to stand more square on due to body armour etc.
@@BlokeontheRange Yes the Finnish guy and girl are more up to date on the stance. That's how we learn here aswell.
How do you guys get guns like that in the europ?
You live in a country where they're legal (which is most of them), jump through whatever hoops there are in that country and apply for a license.
@@BlokeontheRange I was under the impression that most countrys in the uk banned semi auto guns. Was that just england?
The UK has banned semi-auto centrefire rifles indeed. So you can't own them in the UK.
Bloke's Finnish pronounciation was entertaining, more please!
Ps. Koskenkorva helps.
Unfortunately for us in Canada all these rifles in Canada are now the banned list, have a good time and I enjoy your videos.
Dont vote for the pretty boy next time
@@neueneggschiessen3933 Tell that to the great unwashed, mister black face has to go.
@Scout & About If your rimfire looks like an AR15 in Canada it is now prohibited, they banned 1500 makes of firearms.
Is Jari’s DBAL A2 something he was issued or are those available to civilians in Finland?
It's his own :)
@@BlokeontheRange Nice!!!
BTW, I love this series !!!
There are very few attachments that are not legally available here, and all of the allowed ones, including suppressors are unregulated.
I'm bringing my K11 next year , Bloke !
Very interesting. Cool to watch.
The sights are so high on the bullpup it would be hard to zero. I would probably zero at 200 and adjust accordingly with holdover.
It's no more hard to zero than anything else
@@BlokeontheRange but the distance above the center line of the barrel makes a big difference in a weapon as it gets further from the center line. I am not trying to be a jerk but seriously the lower an optic is from the barrel center the more accurate it is. I am sincerely looking to help people be more accurate. I shoot AR type rifles for close range and I have a lot of friends with much more military experience than I have and for 30 plus years I have been taught that the height over the barrel is fairly important. I truly just ran across your video and subscribed and enjoyed your content. I am particularly interested in the bullpup which I believed you called an AR18 if I am not mistaken. Which manufacturer makes that model if you don't mind me asking. I just want to reinforce that I am not a spammer of any sort and I have always used more laser devices and only recently became qualified for national service rifle competition Nationwide in North America so I can complete with the best of the best and credentials yet no formal military service. Most of my mentors were Law Enforcement and or Military personnel and have trained me formally for the last 10 years or so. I enjoyed your video and I am just one of those nerds as we call them looking to ask and pose sincere questions about things that I may not quite understand. You caught my interest with the same type of honest advice and actually going out and shooting the different rifles and discussing the difference between what each shooter experienced. I have a very old AR15 with a carry handle which I had to modify to become state compliant with our newer draconian laws as they are trying to ban all guns here in USA. I am mostly a long range guy and love the bullpup design because you don't have to give up barrel length but the design is more complicated and harder to maintain. I also would like to let you know that I always questioned the Europeans use of the 9mm and after much careful thought I realized that a 9mm AR platform is one of the best home urban self defense systems because of over penetration of say a 5.56 NATO round. I don't want to get too crazy with my opinion but thank you for your video and if you could let me know what the bullpups manufacturer is it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
Aluminium ? lol how is it handle the heat?
Hardly even gets warm. And AR15/M16 rifles have aluminium receivers, as do many other modern gats :)
Well aluminium is often used in electornics for heatsinks, since it conducts and dissipates heat pretty well. So It should handle without any problems.
what camo pattern is that they are wearing?
Finnish m05
@@SoorM thank you!!
Where can i find these combat clothings ? ?
www.varusteleka.com
@@BlokeontheRange thank you
Well done
Why the bull pup? Just why
Why are the Fin's English skills so good?
Decent school system.
+ probably tv series in english & need for it online & on the job.
Because knowing English is almost a must in Europe since it is pretty much the one common language between EU nations
Also because we got super annoyed in the 90's when our rally drivers couldn't speak it properly during interviews.
Mandatory in school for a few generations plus tons of undubbed music, film, TV, games and tech in a nation full of huge nerds.
Downside is that, now that the English speaking generations make up most of the workforce, media, both big and social, massively over-report insignificant stuff from English speaking countries and many absolutely important news from elsewhere in the EU get very little media exposure since there's simply so few reporters who speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, etc. Our main trade partner is Germany and much of our future is determined by pressures from the larger EU member states so this is a tad awkward. It's a feedback loop that makes even fewer future media and business professions likely to learn other languages at school and so on.
@@Gagis Yep, my theory for a long time has been that dubbing kills English knowledge in a country. The nordic countries are pretty good at English. I grew up in Sweden, contrary to what my name indicates, and it's pretty much the same thing there. I learned from watching movies, playing games and having most of my literature in university being in English.
Having experience from Germany and Spain, the English knowledge is much lower, and I think dubbing has a lot to do with it.
"jepa!"
Already watched this on Bitchute. Well done RUclips for the autoplay.
If the trigger’s gold, the spinner’ll fold
Had no idea the BM ever existed.
Very nice rifles! I'd prefer the Barret, which is set up very similar to my rifles.
6:45: Great, now Matt Carriker will try to get an AR with a 2 meter barrel.
Bloke you didn't cycle 3 times and pull the trigger..
If you liked the m17s. Time to get out the mini 14 with muzzlelite bullpup stock
Jenny's rifle's pretty interesting. I would put an offset red dot.
She doesn't need one cos of the funky reticle in her scope
Oh, yeah. It's a variable one. @@BlokeontheRange
Very entertaining.
The Finns love AR's, and I can't find decent priced 7.62x39mm Valmet here in America.😂
You won't because Valmet doesn't make a new rifles for about 25 years.
Jenny's rifle does dip when shot, hehe.
Competition break :p
bloke just looks freaking swole as shit ❤❤
I loathe Piston ARs because of the balance and front end weight, God I really want to shoot an M17S.
Is the fact that Jenny's rifle doesn't kick up make one think it is kicking down?
Watch the muzzle while Jari shoots it, it's clearly dipping a little bit.
@@Kaboomf I just had a quick look, and yes it does. Muscle memory kicking in - pull trigger so stop muzzle climbing?
@@18robsmith quite probable, yes.
seems like it. i noticed for both of them the recoil was soft enough to simply nudge them backwards only slightly and they might have thought the tiny whiplash was the gun kicking down
Nope, it really kicks down for both of us.
Are you a bit of an odd one out with having such a weird rifle at such a practical seeming match?
I'm always a bit of an odd one out!!!
@@BlokeontheRange should have taken the SMLE :-D
So it is obvious what happens when the 17S breaks up 😁
I can't believe you got a starting guy from CoD multiplayer or ghost recon breakpoint. Is he a hologram or something? : p lol
M17S gives you the shortest rifle with the longest barrel (21.5 inches).
And what you sacrifice for that winning Top Trumps card there is... basically everything else!!! :D
Put these 3 in a video channel showing trying all kinda guns and you'll be youtube millionaires before you can say "told ya"
Next...... the fighting with knives.
Loving the rifle swapping very entertaining and the outfits are very smart essentially when Jenney is in them Hehe
We so nearly made it without someone perving on the woman.
The bushmaster looks like someone studied up on some luty guns and decided to attempt their own version. Looks like something you could practically order to build from mcmaster carr. Not a knock against it, just amusing.
The design originally comes from some Aussies, so you’re probably not far wrong. It’s an AR-18 in an aluminum extrusion with an AK fire control group.
Fire control group is AR15. Since Bushmaster were making AR15's, there's as many AR15 parts in it as possible, including the bolt head. The original design had the Leader triangular bolt head (and the new K&M ones do again, which is super cool)
@@BlokeontheRange Interesting! I have a gen 1 M17S (shorter mag well and no screws on the receiver) and the FCG is straight Kalashnikov, to the point where the hammer still has the autosear on the front. The front of the bolt head has the same dimensions as a standard AR-15, but it’s missing the gas rings and the cam pin is off by 90 degrees (exits the left of the bolt vs under the gas key).
I know they changed the takedown pins (mine move ~1/4” versus being removed entirely), I wonder what else they changed between the generations?
imgur.com/a/fxHk7VZ
@@mrb692 2 years late but wow that is funky, never expected to see that in the M17S
Why int he world did this video get 12 down votes?
where is katerina vikor?
*Direct Impingement* is cool and all, I just don't understand how it works enough to be comfortable using it in any of my builds. I prefer *Gas Piston* over anything, but even *Recoil Operation* will do as well. What I do, it's based off of my personal ability to understand how it works as well as my rating of how easy it is to produce.
For example, a *Straight Pull Bolt-Action* would probably be the easiest, of anything that can feed multiple rounds, with *Recoil Operation* being my go-to for a .380 submachine gun made of easy-to-acquire parts, and for anything more reliable than that I'd use *Gas Piston* similar to how an _AK_ or a _VZ_ works. Maybe some day I'll learn properly how other intermediate firing systems work, but for now those are the best I know for the situations described.
In terms of the AR-15, it’s really simple: Gas is fed via the gas tube & gas key into a chamber in the BCG. Due to gas rings on the back of the bolt, the gas has nowhere else to go but toward the back of the chamber, which pushes on the carrier, turning the cam & unlocking the bolt. Any excess pressure is bled via the holes you can see in the side of the BCG visible from the ejection port.
I tend to call it a Stoner Gas system since it is entirely unique to AR-10s/AR-15s, not being the same as DI in the MAS-40 or AG-42 systems.
Love to see also women on the range!
Too bad I don't want to give my soul to IG... I wish people would use more Twitter.
I feel bad for jari 😒