The Body of a City and How Authority Works
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- This video is a repost from a discussion I had with Sam Glenn, whose RUclips channel is dedicated to exploring philosophy. We discuss the symbolic reality of the bodies and agency of cities as principalities. Viewers might find it complementary to last my discussion with John Vervaeke, linked below. Sam and I also talk about how authority ideally functions, and modernity's relationship to authority, hierarchy and technology. Enjoy.
- Original video: • Philosophia #8 Jonatha...
- Collective Intelligence: Angels in Scientific Terms | with John Vervaeke: • Collective Intelligenc...
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:25 - Contents of this discussion
00:01:30 - The body of a city
00:07:09 - Fractals: humans and cities
00:10:49 - Embodying higher consciousness VS idolatry
00:14:17 - What agency do we have as part of the bodies of angels?
00:20:24 - The value of a community of authority
00:26:35 - Modernity both resists and fetishizes authority
00:35:09 - How technology stretches authority
00:38:23 - How authority works
00:44:01 - Outro
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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Pageau is the greatest youtube creator of our time.
And so few can see that. Not even Peterson, I think. "Saving the reenchantment from the false religion of wokeism." Going so lightly, so gently, , not getting in the way of any part of what is being born. He takes my breath away. And his brother Mattieu too.
Amazing insight on the paradox of the modern world: we have absolute freedom in identity, while the state seizes more and more power over us. Max Weber talks about this in the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. He said that there was an organic negotiation of power between the lords and the peasants in the traditional age, whereas bureaucracy and modern capitalism has made it that the state (and the bureaucratic corporation) are cold and inflexible in exercising their authority over the subjects.
You may want to check out Bertrand de Jouvenels book On Power. It's an excellent analysis of how and why Power is able to grow through "liberating" its subjects from any social roles other than as subjects to their "liberator."
I certainly will thank u x
I think the modern state is cold, but not inflexible because it is sensitive to economics. If a city has spiritual/aesthetic qualities which attract business, the "chamber of commerce" will support those qualities. (Sometimes that results in some comically second rate aesthetic installations, such as the flawed art collection of the Boston Museum, or Boston's harborside Frank Lloyd Wright building.)
I cannot express just how deeply this goes and unlocks years of questions for me. Validating some things i wondered about, yet expressing it in a way that does not simply wave away modernist questions as Christians did 20 years ago.
I was translating Hegel's 1931 Vorlesungen über die Philosophie der Religion/ Lectures on the Philosophy of Religion this week for a new version I am publishing while I was listening to this in the background, and I ran across this passage that I think is relevant to what you and Verake are talking about with the "bundling up" of personalities into manifestations of cities or communities into uber-personalities/ angels:
"Athene ist die Stadt Athen und auch der Geist dieses Volks, nicht ein äußerlicher Geist, Schutzgeist, sondern der lebendige, gegenwärtige, wirklich im Volke lebende, dem Individuum immanente Geist, der als Pallas vorgestellt wird nach seinem Wesentlichen. Die Erinnyen sind nicht die Furien äußerlich vorgestellt, sondern es ist die eigene That des Menschen und das Bewußtsein, was ihn plagt, peinigt, insofern er diese That als Böses in ihm weiß. Die Erinnye ist nicht nur äußerliche Furie, die den Muttermörder Orestes verfolgt, sondern der Geist des Muttermords schwingt über ihm seine Fackel. Die Erinnyen sind die Gerechten und eben darum die Wohlmeinenden, Eumeniden; das ist nicht ein Euphemismus, sondern sie sind, die das Recht wollen, und wer es verletzt, hat die Eumeniden in ihm selbst: es ist das, was wir Gewissen nennen."
//
"Athena is the city of Athens and also the spirit of these people, not an external spirit, protective spirit, but the living, present spirit, really living in the people, immanent in the individual, which is presented as Pallas [a primordial Titan-god] according to its essence. The Erinyes [The Furies- Greek female vengeance-deities] are not the Furies imagined externally, but it is man's own deed and consciousness which afflicts and torments him, in so far as he knows this deed to be evil in him. The Erinnye is not only an external fury that pursues the matricide Orestes, but the spirit of matricide wields its torch over him. The Erinyes are the just and for that very reason the well-meaning, Eumenides; this is not a euphemism, but they are those who want justice, and he who violates it has the Eumenides in him: it is what we call conscience."
Thanks for this video JP!! Rise above with love y’all!!
Great discussion - full of humility.
I watched a bit of Downton Abbey the other day and was pleasantly surprised to find it not too subversive - seems to be an example of a functioning hierarchy. The servants have pride in that they represent the dignity of the house, and the owner of the house loves it. He has high standards for his servants, but he cares about them as people, and he's shown protecting them with his resources & authority when they're in danger/shame.
Can also define a body by the form of internal monologue. People think thoughts, but in a car they say them out loud but assume not heard outside car, and also in a group to each other, again unconsciously believing they are contained by group.
Regarding authority, I think the problem is that people put themselves in a position of authority and even call themselves an authority, when clearly they are not. These last two years have really highlighted this.
Its the problem of pride and self naming
@@06rtm could you expand please?
Anthony "The Science" Fauci
@@MrMarccj The hard scientists have named themselves authoritative over how to engage with each other socially, like masks, lock-downs, social distance, etc. But the social sphere lays outside of their domain. Their authority is illegitimate, hence the social breakdown, increased suicides, and whatever "side-effects" are happening for years to come.
In order for a city/body/community/church to work, they need to have a very deep insight of the ultimate needs of the human soul and of the possible errors too. Often cities in the western world seem chaotic to me, they are spaces for everyone to do whatever they want and it sounds like cacophony. The church sounds (or tends to sound and feel) different - rather like order and beauty. As if some higher intelligent human-divine mind has a better understanding of the principles of existence and wellbeing.
The 'extreme authority & extreme freedom' i think ties back to René Guénon's idea of the reign of quantity over quality - everyone is 'an individual and equal in value' but in a way we're flattened to just being numbers, and so we all end up the same
Another great conversation. I’m learning so much from your videos. Thank you.
This is so effing bloody smart.
we are all hoping for Jonathon's analysis of Matrix 4..
It’s going to be about the question which is a female symbolism because the question opens up a new space of possibility.
The womb has the potential to birth the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, but only if the woman has faith in the highest good, the one, and participates by consenting to its love by loving back.
Neo was the one because Trinity submitted to her love for Neo. She had faith in the prophet (the Oracle) that she would love the person who is the One. Because she believes/submits in her love for Neo, she has faith in him also being the One, which gives Neo the ability to be the savior of her world.
Trinity and Neo have to submit to a higher truth, to love;
That is what we all need to do in order to save our world individually, which saves the world.
He cant go and watch it due to Canada's stupid tyrannical rules
Matrix 4 was a mess. Highly politically charged and preachy. He should skip it.
@@paulwillisorg I disagree.. I think it can be seen almost as Pageauian text.. it gestures towards the solution of the problem of masculine and feminine in their mutual complimentarity rather than in overemphasizing of any one pole..
@@paulwillisorg it is also a symbolism happen moment it that it is the film coming from unexpected place, from the margin..
This was uploaded on the Feast of Gregory of Nyssa!
Hope it's a special day for you, Mr. Pageau, at least for a moment.
My favorite teachers were always the ones who commanded respect by not being afraid of making fun of the students.
There's something great about hearing Jonathan say " lay off the sauce" lol
Extremely interesting topics in their own right. Very happy to see this video making a connection. They're categories of thought I could spend a lot of time on.
This looks like a great topic. Can’t wait to dive in. I gotta take care of my responsibilities first, though. Thanks for working so hard for us :-)
Read heart of darkness, that book confounded me. Its spiritual and spine chilling without a spooky moment to speak of. A great study of the fall and man devoid of God.
Jonathan and Sam. Thank you. This was very informative
Wow great discussion! Thanks for these.
I can no longer attend Dr. Jordon Peterson’s talk at DAR Constitution Hall in DC bc the mayor mandated the vaccine for all events in DC. I have three row B tickets for sale if anyone is looking for an up close and personal experience with this incredible man.
#BostonStrong anyone who is from here knows, Boston most definitely has a "consciousness" or vibe of it's own. The city's response to the marathon bombing is a prime example of the living attitude that is Boston.
wow that new intro is amazing. It does have an "end of the world" ominous, fatalist tune to it though. xD. Happy new Year M. Pageau.
Jane Jacobs who wrote extensively about cities came to the conclusion that English enlightenment style science used in urban planning in the US and UK had been a complete disaster with science based on intellectually mistaken theories. Urban renewal brought about the sacking and destruction of cities by people who wanted a fixed, miracle free universe so that science could work without guidance from religion which they saw as superstitious. They ignored that cities are complex organic systems which have cycles of death and life and are always miraculous. (Paraphrased from “The Ethics of Beauty” - Tim Patitsas)
I notice that Pageau talks about order in opposite way than Peterson does. Peterson sees a duality of equally negative ends that he parallels with politics as “too much chaos” and “too much order”.
But it seems that Pageau sees order as something that is good if properly oriented and structured.
Love the submission to authority stuff.
Jonathan, you should do a review of the eternals. It seems like a story about God, angles, and rebellion.
“ A kind of fittedness restraining excess“. Thank you, Sam, for that language.
Thanks for saying so Karen.
That's great! You should probably visit Ethiopia, Addis Ababa again.
Thanks
Coincidentally I answered a synopsis of apocalypse now with these very sentiments. Just five minutes ago
Here it is..
“I disagree. The character Duvall plays is an interpretation by Kubrick of Joseph Conrad describing a Spanish gallion firing into the dense Congo jungle and how it amounted to nothing , almost comical. The empire facing the heart of darkness, the story exists between the savage jungle as a molevelant spirit indifferent to the heroes and tyrants that it devours. The paper mache metastophalies a jester to the madness. Kubrick went to zero so he could have the soul of Joseph's book then told some Oliver stone wining CIA bullshit story that had bits for everyone. The river the rogue and the spectacle of death and what could be worse. It could be done anywhere anytime and war is irrelevant to the story. In my opinion” I
Thanks I love this bridge youve created, the Kanye clown and empires falling video I watched was genius and I still ponder these things
Blessings Guys. J
Also all this talk brings to mind the movie Metropolis by Fritz Lang. I would love to see an analysis of this film from the Weimar era of Germany.
Have you read After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre? Seems like you'd fine lots of fruitful work in that book. He has a great short discussion on "taboos" that was very formative to my understanding and how Liberal societies basically see Authority as "the enforcer of taboos" contrasted with the idea of Authority granted within a Tradition (or more generally a practice).
Another example that may really elucidate your "City" conceptualization would be the "ghost town" (eg old mining towns) or "dying city" (eg Detroit or the Rust Belt cities in general).
Ghost town, of course... all that people, all that frenetic activity was there just for the gold. You design and build a city around a purpose other than life, love, human fraternity and specially God, and it is doomed. Btw, I think cities always have a dark side which pulls them towards idolatry, I feel it almost can be flipped like a switch.
Yes, and modern cities built on some manufacturing or industry that gets off shored. Also not a coincidence that all of those European cities and villages that have lasted thousands of years are completely designed around the church or cathedral, while ours are just sprawl. We know they wont last centuries, let alone millenia so we call that fact progress.
On the dark side of cities, think about cities that are known for their activity literally after dark. Directly analogous to people who love "night life/clubs" etc.
@@tylerbrown4082 Also, I feel like there's one "hellish side" of every city. Like when you are under an anxiety attack and everything looks gloomy, fake or menacing. Like seeing the city from a depressive point of view: the glamorous may seem decadent. When you look at your city with those eyes you will see the potential idolatry that runs through it, because most of the time there are motifs or themes around every city. Its identity, can turn ugly.
@@RodrigoMera Agree. William Blake’s “satanic mills” suns then up well.
What happens when obedience to religious authority means disobedience to state authority and vice versa?
Just pray deep, and go where God shows you to go.
People wish that were happening much more than that actually happens.
Bullseye! Thank you 🙏
I feel like I just levelled up
We live in a living Society....
Mr Pageau, have you ever watched the movie "The Last Temptation or Christ"? Do you see it as a movie trying to destroy Christianity while using Christian imagery?
ruclips.net/video/6AlOJ4MvbtQ/видео.html
It is obviously a movie trying to destroy Christianity.
@@CHURCHISAWESUM that's the video that introduced me to the movie. Have you even watched the film or you just took other people's word for granted?
I didn’t take it that way. The movie did two things for me. It showed the impoverishment of a World without Christ and it brought home the enormity of Jesus’ torment on the Cross. But I would agree it’s not a movie for the masses.
@@gabriellawrence6598 I watched the film. It plays out like a gnostic fake gospel and is inherently Nestorian and therefore heretical. It's a form of Jewish slander against Christianity.
Some cities turn into critical reaction zones, with everyone reacting negatively to others reactions to others reactions, in compounding clusters,, with mass media propaganda and indoctrination and gossiping fuelling slave realities.
Creative consciousness requires a lot of will and endurance.
Decent and in Order
Oh the wonderful paradox, to be free is to take responsibility.
Never before have I encountered someone I both agree and disagree with so much.
1st. COR 12, 4-30
Hey I’m also in Bristol! Pa US
love bristol, and also anarchy, one love
This may be a random comment, but would you be able to look at the symbolism used by David Bowie? I'm thinking the Black Star album.
Nature is fractal.
Do you know James Patrick Reid the artist?
You should check him out
18:00 Last night, we watched an amazing film, The Same Kind of Different as Me. A film that manifests the exact point that Jonathan is making here.
Which film?
@@nathankeifer9281 I just didn’t capitalize the title, but it’s in the comment. The Same Kind of Different as Me.
@@TheMeaningCode Oh yeah, there it is.. I just overlooked it, thank you I'm gonna check it out!
La Madonna della Misericordia fresco in the Bigallo in Florence
1342
Just sayin’
Very much looking forward to the Weinstein talk. Adaptive Valleys and the Holy Mountain.
RUclips has stopped showing your videos in my feed
Youth today confuses the abuse of power with the structure of the power itself.
I don’t like people using the word submission. That is a Meccan spiritual concept tied to the authority of the physical swords of the faithful.
In Christianity we don’t submit, we come into obedience. It may seem subtle but there is a world of difference.
Not exclusively. It’s weird to become superstitious about a word and concept because another group acknowledges it. All people are trying to submit in functional ways to things higher. That’s just a fact. Islam doesn’t have a monopoly on the idea.
15:09
"this is jonathan pedro
welcome to the symbolic world"
please make a video on kanye's new music video of heaven and hell
20:55
I have this impulse when I hear men talking like this to say "It's porn. You can just say it."
I wonder if it would be crass, or if it would help to more accutely aim the question, from
"is it necessary for those around me to pray in the same direction to see a result in increased efficacy of my prayer life"
to
"will going to church actually help me quit porn?"
@J.P. I mean, It sounds like he is or at least recently was indeed a pagan of some sort. If by pagan you mean non-christian
Regular Confession & daily Mass certainly helped me
@@Xanaseb who was/is your confessor?
@@EamonBurke an Oratorian priest. The Oratorians of St.Philip Neri are generally good confessors as it is part of their charism, following their founder.
He is also my spiritual director/father. That also helps as the priest has a more intimate knowledge of your spiritual life and needs in the eyes of God
@@Xanaseb that sounds wonderful
Society falls apart when we worship false idols.
We don't simply get to choose nothing.
Is it really possible that I am first?
Nope :(
I feel like this conversation would have been served by having an anthropologist or sociologist in the room. A city is a complex adaptive system that indeed works by rules, but it also operates on the basis of a process called "participation and reification." In other words, as we participate in our social institutions we make them real. This creates emergent properties of systems.
The world is filled with experts that need other experts to convey what's ultimely informed opinions unto theory served as fact, and those experts needs others to do the same biding. A cycle of fancy noise
Humans are like water.
H2O is stable, but it is constantly changing from H2O H+ + OH-
We go from the stable middle to the two extremes, and back to the stable middle.
Like a pendulum we swing.
But also it's strange.
We want to be rebels, so the system extends.
We see the system extend, and so we want to rebel.
So the system extends.
How do we burst the balloon without letting it reach the breaking point?
It can't be both. Return requires a bursting. Repentance requires exile very very often.
I wish I could converse with you about anarchy. You're tearing down a cartoon character of anarchy like the atheists do to god
Most people only present the cartoon version. I can’t remember ever encountering someone who studies anarchist philosophy, so if they exist, it’s still not worth discussing deeply if you never encounter it. Many atheists probably have had the same experience with people who claim to believe in God but don’t act truly God fearing. I’m interested to know what you want to better present about anarchy though.
Hmm JP is going off the rails a bit.
This could have been really good with a better interviewer
“Why don’t we accept authority?” What a ridiculous question. You’re telling me you’ve never had the intuitive sense that the “authorities” around you were so disordered, so off track that you struggle to even correctly define authority as a concept? It’s not just teenage rebellion, tho that has something to do with it; but teenage rebellion is precisely the way moderns (don’t know the completely history of teenage rebellion) at least try to bargain and communicate with corrupt authorities. It’s an answer to the problem that misses the mark by trying to imitate the corrupt authorities rather than bring things back to center: the problem being self-crowning. After becoming Orthodox I realized I had no problem with authority, what I had a problem with was corruption and self-crowned idols. Authority and its reception is intuitive, I gladly submit to the proper hierarchy, because it truly orients itself to God and derives it’s authority from the throne of God who is the head of the body. The pattern of authority is reality, the Orthodox don’t correct the pattern, they submit themselves to it and everything slots together as it should.
It’s ironic because this problem is encapsulated so perfectly in the Roman church and it’s subsequent schisms. Protestantism is such a virulent disease because it pretends to preach submission to the will of God while simultaneously fetishizing the will of the individual. There is no communication of the hierarchy, there’s too many crowns, and each crown does whatever they believe the will of God is by imaging themselves onto God.
Way too much synchronicity on this topic
SynchroniCITY? :P
this would be a Whole lot better if the inarticulate (like, um kind of, like, like) 'questioner' would just be quiet (or disappear entirely) and let Jonathon just tell his thoughts on the subject at hand.. incredibly frustrating.
I thought everyone listened to RUclips videos at 1.5x speed
Rude. You’re not respecting the hierarchy
For thieves robbers cannot build the Kingdom of Heaven for they build in vain for the great day of their Sunday destruction
Someone should have just baked some cookies in Sodom and Gomorrah?
The properly ordered feminine within properly ordered homes would surely have done a lot of good
"Real traditional authority is more fractal and is more organic and is this kind of negotiation and discussion between the levels. " This is interesting but really??? Where exactly? Because "traditionally", the king and church were very often horribly tyrannical. Disagree, and be tortured in unimaginable (today) ways. Very imaginable then. On and on. The English, the enlightenment changed all that. Freedom of religion, speak, elected authority. (gradually, over time). Read John Milton. Today the traditional authority of the Catholic church is being prosecuted under racketeering laws over the 50 years of abuses to children. And Orthodoxy in the US escapes any scrutiny because it's SO small. Look and you find the same corruption.
Seems like "real socialism always works". Oh, that one's not "real socialism".
Revolt against the modern world gives a good description. What you’re talking about is all modern instead of traditional. That’s where the confusion is. But there’s also the fact that all systems fail to live up to their philosophical grounds, not just communism. Corruption can wreck democracies as well. We’ve surely witnessed that since you wrote this comment. Julius Evola is fascinating, though at a certain point he goes a direction with his thought that I don’t follow. He also explains a lot about historical systems that fed my understanding. Revolt against the modern world is his best work imo.