Why do climbers use these?
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- Опубликовано: 28 ноя 2023
- One of our most used bolts and we haven't made a video about them yet??? Bobby and I finally talked about all the tests we've done and updated the Bolting Bible with the concrete screws chapter. There is a lot of mystery about these things in the bolting community because there is no "rating" for climbing but they are awesome... for some situations. www.hownot2.com/post/bolting-...
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See our updated chapter in the Bolting Bible about Concrete Screws and how they are used in climbing context. www.hownot2.com/post/bolting-bible-concrete-screws
We don't sell concrete screws but we sell over 1500 things you need for climbing at hownot2.store/
As someone who was in the situation of re-using old concrete screws for industrial safety fencing... don't cheap out. Don't re-use them even in new holes, they wear down fast and become much weaker at cyclic holding. If you are paying attention and are willing to count runs or compare to new... maybe? But be smart, really good bolts, good results.
I've been putting these in for 5 or 6 years. Mainly in marble and limestone. great for aid when bolting roofs if no placements are available. the titan HDS are to only ones I like to whip on. several experimental 40 foot whippers. dewalt one is a little sketch. the threads are too short.They work really well in limestone and marble but not the best for southern sandstone. That said I think they are good for low traffic and FA's to be replaced with glue ins when fully opened. just as you guys state here. Excellent work in the study field my dudes!
Awesome sauce I'll be using these in limestone!
For a permanent anchor in sandstone I use coal mining roof bolt glue. It's not going anywhere after you spin the bolt.
I love the new tests when they come out, but revisiting the old ones with your new level of knowledge or covering an issue missed/skipped at the time is great too. Keep up the great work!
Concrete screws are becomming very well regarded in the construction industry.
They are proving (when correctly installed) to be much stronger than many of the traditional masonry anchors.
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I know guys, bolting down ATMs with them. These guys tend to take fasteners quite seriously.
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They have a couple of specific advantages.
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If you put down a 6 inch conc' screw and the slab is only 4 ot 5 inches thick, or there is a void or a cavity or a soft pocket, it's still going to be as strong as possible in that piece of masonry, wih pretty much no complications.
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For a given hole they give pretty much the strongest bolt possible, because they are all bolt.
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AND yes, of course they are removable.
The building owners like this, because when a machine is removed, the bolt comes straight out and there is a relatively small easy to fill hole AND there is no metal left behind.
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Here is a thought ....... i wonder how these would go in soft rock, combined with glue?
I love them. New or mature concrete, strong as hell, excellent clamping, quick and easy. There’s nothing to dislike.
My experience with a building environment. They are excellent for a static environment where they are not repeatedly loaded. See them coming out on, say, a hinge for a gate
This is a wonderful life hack for building routes! Removable bolts would have been handy back in the day bolting routes; before glue ins were available. Thank you for the excellent video!
I've been using these for about 1.5 years for rock exploration & route development. I use the 1/2" x 6" version of the Titen HD's all the time as my temp anchors and temp bolts. They use the same size hole as my 1/2" x 6" Twist bolts. I used to use the 12mm x 90mm Petzl Triplex bolts, but I found that for most of my placements I wanted to just replace it with a Twist glue-in bolt anyways. So making my original/temporary hole 1/2" allowed me to not have to haul my drill back up the wall for my gluing day. I just screw the Titen HD's in manually with a socket wrench. Pretty slick! Plus they feel absolutely bomber. They potentially add a tiny bit of added security once glued too because the threads can be filled with glue.
I should mention that I did have to use a drill to slightly widen the hole of a Fixe 1/2" hanger to get the 1/2" bolt to thread inside. I wouldn't tamper with permanent hardware like that, but for my own (temporary) use it's super bomber.
Thank you for the work you're doing, truly a gift
The canyoning community has been using these for a while now for exploration of canyons, then if the canyon is worth doing again we go back through and remove them, drill out the holes and put glue ins like you have suggested. It’s a great system.
We have been waiting for this for so long... Thanks!
I climb trees, this showed up in my page, find the gear testing interesting.
in my line of work I have seen ropes do things most people would never get to see, unless they were trying to break it
I’ve been using the Hilti version for stunt rigging for the last 5 years. They are exceptional, never had a failure. Have not used in rock yet.
An excellent video guys. Many thanks. Executive summary : great for crag development, (perhaps impractical in granite) but only for temporary use.
ive seen them start to come loose in factory settings holding machines to the floor. a bit of epoxy and they never come loose. often wondered how a good smear of something like sikaflex would work....
and for those in europe hilti and fischer make really nice ones.
Great info! I usually use Climbtech RB's for my temp anchors (mostly on dam abutments), and I've been eyeing these for something that could be used for the duration of a job, then removed and filled. I hate leaving RB's sitting out, especially if foul weather rolls around.
Not sure if you've done a video covering this but it might be interesting in looking at the repeated stress over time e.g. doing a stress test where you take gear up to a set kN for X repeats?
Have been using 8mm Ramset versions for the last 8 years for bolting steep routes in soft sandstone. Previously, developers were using small dynabolts, these are far superior. Easy in, easy out, hole can be dirty, never get stuck.
You guys turned me on to these and I love them for concrete work!
Edit: Seems like drilling the 3/8" out slightly would be safer than the 1/2" with a washer.
I'm no route setter, but I bet 1/2x6" would hold anything in sandstone.
I’ve used them anchoring in very soft wet sandstone to tie a boat against a cliff. Magnificent, and in that very soft rock I’ve used the same bolts in maybe 15 holes each? Very little wear.
We use them to bolt angle iron on foundations when there is no brick ledge to brick houses.they work great.
They're strong, their characteristics are such that they work well with weak materials. Properly installed they are very strong. They are the only post-installed anchor that is easily to remove. Hilti makes a similar fastener with similar strength so strengthwise they are interchangeable but check manufacturer's literature regarding installation, different manufacturers might require different drill bit diameters. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer that is comparable. Technically you are supposed to clean the holes before you put the anchor in, and the dust and particles that come out of the hole are harmful to your lungs if you breathe them just like the stuff that killed gold miners in the Colorado mountains 100 years ago.
i thought you would use concrete nails, with a blank behind it, if you have to drill a hole just use a dyna bolt (expanding cage)?
We use many of this in gypsium caves because the rock is soft and elastic , they grip really good, they are easy to install as the rock is quite soft and they don't start to move after a while as fixe bolt do. Fixe bolt expanding in gypsium have not any problem chewing the rock and pretty soon you need to drilla new hole....
Wonder if you've tested the 12mm x 90mm removable Petzl Triplex bolt? They are pretty great reusable temporary bolts.
If you want the best permanent anchors, look at undercut anchors (such as Dewalt CCU+ or Hilti HDA-P). These are ultra expensive & a PITA to install, but create less crack/expansion stress on the surround. The carbide teeth dig around as the expansion bolt is tightened, so a vacuum dust removal system is necessary. They are used in the most critical of buildings where failure of a fastener is not an option, think nuclear plants, massive city water facilities, or underground tunnels.
Would putting the bolt in at a slight angle help keeping the bolts in place when I do a wall plate onto a buiking I put the screws bolts in at a slight downwards angle witch makes the wall plate stronger
Wow. This was fun.
I found that 12mm hangers work perfectly with the 3/8” screws.
Quality edutainment 👏👏
Surely you could carefully put the bolt through the 3/8" hole all of the way, past the thread. Then when you install it in concrete or rock, there is no chance of the threads getting damaged, or wrenching it out of your hand?
Man I bet one day a Simpson engineer is going to see this video, find out people are trusting their lives to these bolts in their totally not intended purpose, and shit their pants.
The anchor at 10:00 Bobby is hanging off of appears to be a block that could easily detach from the wall?
I would love to see a picture or video of that from another angle!? Probably is better than it looks?
Waiting for tests of Multi Monti!!!
Since repetitive stress on these in softer rock causes them to loosen badly, has anyone come up with a "tattletale" hanger, something that deforms at something like 6kn but doesn't fail until the 25-30 mark like the others? A slightly longer hanger with an extra bend might do this, if you come to use it and it's straightened out that's a sign that the hanger and hence the anchor bolt has been stressed beyond where the rock might be compromised.
The page about Titen HD screw anchor you show @ 1:01 is for "use in dry interior environement only". If you talk about SS bolt why not show the SS bolt page?
I've had stalled a midsize impact wrench multiple times installing 4"-6" 3/8 and 1/2" Titans while using a worn sds bit in concrete.... Meanwhile I've spun the Tapcon equivalent using similar lengths, most often with larger 1/2" - 3/4" diameters! (Holes were still from a well used bit) I think the lack of full length threads really hurts the tapcon version's potential for use as a personal anchor!... Although both brands do have the sweet self locking head that works somewhat similar to a Nordlock washer I guess 🤔 (You guys should definitely play with nordlock lock washers when you get the chance btw 😉 👍) The simple magic of two opposed inclined planes with locking stampings is pretty darn impressive...
It blows my mind you guys put these in with an impact wrench. If there was anything I'd want to make sure I didn't damage threads on, it would be this.
Yeah I thought that was interesting too. I thread mine in by hand with a socket wrench and some firm steady pressure. But maybe an impact wrench is necessary for different rock.
It’s realistically the only way to fit them in concrete. The threads are fast enough that you won’t pull the heads off, they come to a fairly sudden stop. You won’t damage the threads - they’re self tapping into the concrete. They’ll make their own way.
@@WineScrounger To be fair, I haven't tried putting these in with an impact driver. With the rock type I work with most (rhyolitic tuff), an impact driver just isn't at all necessary to put these in. So then it's just wasted energy and space to hike an extra drill in and haul it up the wall. But I think if I was struggling to install them with a socket wrench I'd consider an impact driver.
@@2002mitchell That makes sense, concrete is probably a lot denser. Also I never climb any forther than the top of a ladder ;)
Using Hilti hus-8 and Hilti hus-10 in rope access. It’s amazing piece of gear coz they are cheap and sometimes you can just leave them with cheap anchor in a hard reachable place. And it will cost you around 3-4 $.
And for second installation in the same hole, you can just to use wrench with ratchet. Same for removal. In case if you don’t want to take impact power wrench with you😅
I've never needed an impact wrench to put these in, but maybe it's rock type dependant? A regular old socket wrench has always worked well for me.
10 years ago on caving training instructor say only 3 times of usages the same hole. After is only for glue in or wedge bolt because thread of concrete bolt broke a rock inside a hole. Until today I don’t find any evidence of it so maybe someone know something? Greetings
I was barely able to see Bobby with that camouflaged shirt 😂
As I was thinking Hilti Hit you started to mention glue-ins and then Hilti👍
So you mentioned upsizing the hole and installing a glue-in...what about putting in a wedge bolt of the same diameter?
I wouldn't reuse the same hole with a wedge bolt. Likely the threads from the concrete screw compromise the rock a bit and may not give a secure hold for the expansion bolt.
If only someone could do some pull tests on this...I'm looking at you, HowNot2 😀. Great vids!
I think it’s pretty interesting !
Like these in concept - but in practice can be a bit of faffing around due to having to carry an extra impact drill to tighten or swap drill bits using an SDS-hex conversion bit.
If you are going to use this to get closer to the wall for proper bolting (and plan to fill the hole later) - I find drilling a small pilot hole and pounding in a skyhook (like a piton) is way faster/easier to a certain wall angle. I go with 1/4" or 3/8 zinc stubbies (and just pound in) for steeper than 45.
I do think these are great for less steep routes where you intend to replace w glue-ins ASAP.
sds to 1/2 adapters are easy to find and cheap! For this specific usage i probably would glue the socket to it.
there is a least 2 other options (both less effective):
-hammer drill with "multi-material" drill bit
-impact with the same bit
I have many things to say about those drill bits...
@@thomaswidget6528 totally - just swapping out bits when dangling in space is a PITA
As someone who worked in the trades for a long time, I can tell you that you don't want to trust your life to the shield and wedge anchors you flashed on the screen at the end of the video. Anything that can be pulled with the claws of a hammer is probably not something one would want to trust one's life to. You are on the right track using the Titan HD's where the threads bite in to the substrate, and the glue-in style which have solid testing behind them. I haven't dug into it, but these are all designed for concrete, so I wonder if the epoxy adhesives for concrete are different than for stone. I know a guy that could probably answer that question.
Ive been using a lot of these this year on some obscure stuff. Dont tell the locals they will lose their mind. I also have been using climbtech RBs for about 13yrs for many applications including lead protection. Can you point me to destructive testing you have done on those? Thanks
ruclips.net/video/QA_iJ3oqoY0/видео.htmlsi=UmLkfH3TWiOc2Byn
If you ever want to go silly, chuck a couple of 'structural screws' into the test rig. The spec they're sold to is allegedly better than grade 8 lag bolts.
I always wonder about the way you test things, like in the real world do they act more like fuses, like they can take a split second force for a very small amount of time but a continued load would pull it out, like if you have 15 kn on a rope for a split second as it absorbs your fall and then it quickly falls to just your body weight does that behave differently than pulling up to 15 kn slowly with a winch. Do you have any thoughts about this or about the slow increasing of force as you break stuff? I don't climb but follow your channel because it's all so interesting and I appreciate the methodical way you do things and would love to know your opinion on my question above, it's probably something you considered.
Hi, hope I may answer this, so Ryan can do more videos in the meantime 😊
I'm a climber, mechanical engineer and have been working in climbing hardware developement for four years. But the answer is not about opinions, its state of knowledge and written in books bevore I was even born.
Different materials behave differently under long term static, long term cyclic and quickly applied short forces.
LONG TERM STATIC LOADS
Aka CREEP DEFORMATION:
Plastics (ropes) willl creep or relaxate (lengthen or loose tension depending on the setup) under long term forces. There are special plastics that do this very slowly, but still do.
Typical construction Metals will not plastically deform under a certain force threshold (yield strength) but will creep at high temperatures (about 1/2 melting temp). I just read that concrete CAN creep (on wikipedia^^). I don't think granit will creep, but lookinv at concrete limestone might?..
But even when no creeping occurs, no damage by long term loads is only true for ideal environments. In corrosive environments (coastline) most metals can get stress corrosion cracks (corroding faster and breaking lower than they should). In erosive environments (frost cycles) rock can fracture. Stresses from permanent loads will likely accelerate the process.
Anchors that leave water access to the interface between rock and metal will give corrosion and erosion best opportunities.
CYCLIC LOADING:
For metals there is a well documented effect of parts/samples breaking way below their normal breaking strength (from static testing) when loaded repeatedly but VERY often. We are talking 10^5-10^7 times, so with climbing you are pretty safe. With slacklining and pragliding however these effects can matter.
With cyclic loading on rock, again here I am outside of my education, I can imagine that as soon you have even a little play (threads on sandstone) the play will increase over many cycles as little grains crumble out of the matrix. Theres many different rock types, so effects will obviously vary.
As for cyclic loading of plastics i had to google just now 😅. They seem to show similar effects but at different load percentages and cycle numbers.
SINGLE PEAK FORCE SLOW VS FAST
There can be some misunderstanding around "dynamic" loading vs "fast loading".
Dynamic loads have to do with mooving masses that are caught by the material/part that is beeing tested. Here the mass of a body can be converted into ist gravitational force, but this is NOT the force that is beeing applied to the tested part. It is in fact hard to know how high the Force is going to be, because it's influenced by the parts/materials responce to the dynamic loading.
So inside the same setup a soft material (dynamic rope) will produce lower forces than a stiffer material (static rope or even steel cable) possibly leaving the softer material whole while breaking the stiffer material. THIS DOES NOT MEAN, THAT THE MATERIAL THAT SUVIVED THE DYNAMIC TEST HAS A HIGHER STRENGTH!
When engineers say "strength", they typically mean the max. pull strength or yield strength at very low speed (which is defined in international standards). There is also shear strength and compression strength, which are referred to specifically. Increasing pull speed will typically lead to a higher peak Force with Plastics (drastically) and Metals (slightly).
Dont know about rock or concrete.
DYNAMIC TESTING:
Some certification tests for textile (plastic) climbing gear are defined to be dynamic in climbing gear standards (UIAA, EN, etc): ropes themselves but also ascenders and fall arrest devices on ropes are tested by dropping weights into the system (there might be more).
From first hand experience I know that the breaking forces (of the rope ot its sheath) reached in these dynamic tests are often significantly lower, than the ones in a similar but static setup. I was partying when Ryan decided to build the drop tower! 🎉
In mechanics there is the charpy impact test. It is hard to compare to pull tests and has a completely different logic. Not the peak force but the energy absorption is beeing measured here. But qualitatively it shows enbrittlement of most materials when exposed to shock loading.
The "shock" in this test is much much higher though compared to the "shock loading" that we refer to as climbers. Climbers shock loading only affects the textile but not the metal components.
Please try multi monti and Hilty!
Being a rock climber AND caver, there are differences between bolting. The main differences are the elements. Caves tend to be in a constant environment out of the sun. So setting up an anchor system means that you can leave the ropes behind and they will be fine for years. BUT, you must take care putting in bolts especially into formations. Most caves are formed by water, so they are damp. And we all know what moisture does to metal over a period of time. Walls of caves can have formations, which are very soft and sometimes even hollow OR not even be rock at all and just be very compressed mud. It is best to go with an experienced caver before attempting to bolt or rig lines in a cave.
the sheer result is surpirsing.
Goddamn. Within two minutes of the video being released
I may be wrong, but isn’t the issue with a commercial blot like that QC? No way manufacturer is QC’ing every concrete bolt it makes
Does anyone know a good brand of snow parka? For climbing or outdoors in general?
Do you want an insulated thermal parka or more of a windbreaker layer
@@CalebBohanon Like an insulated thermal parka. I have a down sweater from Patagonia but that's not much of a parka.
Feathered friends is #1, I've also really like the RAB brand.
@@trecoolable so i have a couple suggestions in a couple price ranges.
North Face, and Arc'teryx on the high end, Patagonia, Mammut and REI on the middle end, and Outdoor Research on the low end.
I also recommend Milwaukee m12 heated gear if you want technology augmentation ;) pretty much any midweight work-gear will serve you well on a wall, and it'll probably come in hi-vis so they can find you in the ice! You know, if you... Stay up in the mountains too long
👍
So they're basically just for SAR
the SS strong tie galvanized will be good for about 20 years in non corrosive areas, and the stainless will be not as strong as the galvanized and the regular steel will be stronger again, let me know where u are getting those bolts that cheep, not in my local builders store, (may be dealing with 5/8ths though.)
We use Simpsons at work to temporarily secure machinery to our floor. We pull them out and reuse them. Of course, we're not using them in an application that our lives depend upon. All in all, they are skookum as frig.
Roger Scruton - Newton. Kilo Newton
Alien Mutant - Killer Newtant. 😂
Are there not really sustainability/impact concerns around using these and glue-ins? Glue-ins are not really replaceable when they eventually wear out, whereas hangers on expansion bolts generally are. The Petzl Coeur Pulse is expensive but seems like an ideal solution otherwise.
they are not supposed to be used that way
Aren't those used for construction. They keep a building together so it will take dozens of blokes to shear one off. Have you tried using sandwiches instead, they're yummy.
Thanks guys,
Would be tricky to place on lead!
I think these will work for some TR solo anchors above established walls. In my Eastside areas the granite rock has a tendency to decrease in integrity at the tops of the formations. In some cases, to the point that even 1/2" wedge bolts don't pull up well. There is one area especially (Brophy's Dark Room) I simply can't reach from above without a really elaborate lash-up.
Except it's nice you don't need a hammer just drill, blow, and screw
Yes, it can be done one handed, but in a iffy stance a couple hammer wacks takes a couple seconds. and the hammer gives you a bit of reach. Having to screw the bolt (screw?) in would take longer and be a bit limiting. @@darrenmabe8623
A video using measurements only 0,04% of the world uses
Why do climbers use these? to keep from falling !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow! I didn't know that one gay comedian had another channel testing climbing gear!
Kill Tony ??
Why are you promoting temporary bolts that you take out and leave a damaged rock face behind ? Hardly eco friendly and in line with how most climbers think. Stop leaving holes and pock marks on the rock face people! If there isn’t a place to anchor you shouldn’t be there (or at worst case leave a permanent anchor).
You have never been here before have you? Great vid boys. Thanks! I’ve been using the hilti ones in the rope access world quite a bit and they are also great. Haven’t been able to test til destruction but all good and well up to at least 15kN where my equipment stops pulling