On the DMG cover, Venger may be standing over the D&D version of the "Black Cauldron", which when activated spews forth hundreds of skeleton warriors. ;)
I agree on most fronts. Though for me I adore Wayne Reynold's art and thats part of what is iconic with Pathfinder. I think more than anything, its the homogenizing I see that bothers me. I dont know if thats due to the internet and everyone gets so many influences, especially from the most popular or viral, and it all blurs together, or its enforced by corporate style sheets and doesnt given artists breathing room. I think theres also a lost soul with a lot of digital art. With most physical art, if you mess up or have an errant mark, its hard to completely undo and you end up encorporating it into the composition and that humanity shines through more. So really with DND fantasy art in general, i want a little of that roughness. I was talking to a friend about this the other week and I slipped and said "bad" art from editions past and that wasnt right. There was a deeper rawness and scrappiness to it that really felt at home with the fantasy D&D offers.
10" Elf ears started becoming mainstream with Warcraft 3, and then really git it huge with World of Warcraft. Warcraft 3 also introduced the Elf eyebrows that grow out to the sides so long they go past the now 10" Elf ears. Just look up an image of Kaelthas and you'll see how they looked in Frozen Throne in like 2002 or whenever that one came out. After WoW made it the norm for MMOs, Anime took it up and now you have a 50:50 chance Elves in your new fiction will come with some form of antennas or not.
Not sure if it’s where two foot long elf ears originated from but the earliest place I’ve seen elf ears that would make doors inconvenient was in Warcraft
I agreed with everything you said about each image except that I didn't especially like the dragon heating the coffee. At a glance I was intrigued and I do like the things that Wyloch liked such as the grungy sort of color scheme and cavernous setting, but there were too many things that I noticed immediately afterward which made me lose my appreciation for it. The flow of that image suggests that the top half of the image was added on after it had already been composed without it. There's no good flow for the image as a whole. The other thing I don't like about it is that that appears to be a gold dragon, one of the proudest and most noble of the most noble species in the D&D universe and yet it has prostrated its head so low that its regal whiskers are dragging in the dirt just to heat a teapot. A teapot mind you that it could just brew higher in the air. And to add to that the light source appears to be the teapot itself despite the pot not being lit, and even the heat source is hot air and smoke from the dragon's nostrils which not only does not produce light but smoke even obscures it. Once more the light appears to fade away on one part of the dragon that's closer to the pot on the left side of the image, and yet is full volume against a part of the dragon that's much farther away in top right area of the image (which is part of what makes me think the image was composed as the lower section and the top section was added later on). The dragon's curls are also much cleaner and more convincing in the lower section and becomes confused in the upper section. It doesn't feel like a D&D dragon, which could be a good thing given that it's a serpent dragon instead of a traditional western style one, but the prostrated pose and whiskers on the ground completely defies the fact that Asian serpent dragons were gods as opposed to the western trope of monsters that need slaying. So switching to a serpent dragon and then making it posed that way is a fairly disruptive contradiction in all the wrong ways. This might have been a draw to the image except for 2 major issues. 1 is that the characters are nicely drawn in a very muted style which makes them feel like "just another adventurer" in a way I really like, but that in contrast to the dragon's whiskers in the dirt doesn't fly for me. If they seemed important or heroic like they just saved the day it could be a sign of appreciation for what they did and who they are, but as is it only serves to diminish the dragon itself. For 2 and much more important is the dead eye of the dragon. It looks almost like it's being mind controlled or has the mind of an animal instead of a sentient thinking godlike thing. And also, like, what is the rogue doing? Not participating in the tea? Is it keeping watch despite the dragon having true sight? Why is the light up there around the rogue to illuminate its hiding place without a proper light source, and why would a rogue choose that spot if it's lit up like that? All of these things lead me to 1 of either of these 2 assumptions: 1) The "party" below are the villains that have somehow managed to mind control and enslave a godlike golden dragon, reducing its mind to that of a domesticated beast, and what they have chosen to do with such a person turned into a powerful new tool of destruction is that they commanded it to make them tea. The rogue is not scouting, but rather getting into position to pounce and save the dragon from its captors while they're distracted by their tea time. Part of the dragon's mind is still free, and it is moving its tail to aid the rogue in getting the perfect vantage point for the rogue to pounce. 2) This is not D&D and is instead Pokemon. The party is using their serpentine Charizard to brew tea before they cuddle it to sleep for warmth. The dragon also knows the HM "Flash" and is illuminating the cave from an ambiguous light source. The rogue is climbing the dragon like a playground because he likes to feel the excitement of being off the ground and he got the zoomies from the tea he drank much faster than the others. What a great bunch of kiddos. XD
'Most' cases of overly-long ears can be traced back to the elves from Lodoss War. Some would say Zelda- that's not actually true. Hylian ears only got to their modern lengths during the 90s (notably shorter and more 'upright' in 80s artwork), whereas Lodoss elves always had super-long ears (as an aside, this is the main reason why elves in Warcraft have immense ears, and Warcraft's artstyle has had its own lasting effect...) I say most, as Lodoss War is now somewhat forgotten, being some 34 years old as an anime and the dnd campaign it was based on older still. The books're like, 40 or so now?
Oh man, I knew it wasn't Zelda since like you said the ears in Zelda were similarly shaped on their own, but were specifically much closer to the sides of the head like more common real human ears. But I thought it was Warcraft that started it. I still think that it was World of Warcraft that made it popular, though. Those ears weren't anywhere near as common until the Warcraft art filled the internet, and until there were so many copycat art style games based on Warcraft's style, especially other direct copycat MMORPGs. So yeah that might have come first, but I don't think it's why it's so popular today. Not the driving force that spread the style around the world.
@@Will_Forge That's why I said 'traced back to', rather than 'because of'. It's also why I mentioned Warcraft had had its own impact on fantasy art. I'll admit I could've worded it better, but it's not too often I get a free chance to bring up Lodoss (and on occasion Magical/Rune Soldier Louie)
100% agree concerning limited-time FOMO nonsense. I don't mind the core idea of alternate covers, per se, but only when it isn't limited edition; otherwise, it just kinda sucks knowing I can't buy a cooler version of a game or what-have-you because I didn't get in on it at release. As for the art, I think the PHB and MM look fantastic, but the DMG feels... Off. The PHB and MM are highly dynamic, creating the sense that we're catching a glimpse of an ongoing scene, while the DMG feels static, as if they've all been staged with no discernable purpose. The colors also vibrate in an uncomfortable way (color theory term), and the composition feels less cohesive; each character is completely detached from the others, whereas the PHB and MM have them interacting. To be clear, I don't mean to cast any asperity on the artist--he's exceptionally talented, and it's a very well painted piece on its own. It just feels the most out of place of the three covers to me.
The artists involved comment made me laugh as all these covers are AI art also you are the only person I've seen say anything good about them. why did you say Vengers name weird Ven gar I don't know who that's meant to be take the A and the S away from avengers and then you might be able to say it correctly 😅 ven-ger. I take it you've never watched the original Dungeons and Dragons cartoon I'm surprised about this how very odd 🤨
Gotta admint, I don't like multiclassing either. Trying to make DnD characters that are killing machines is in my opinion starting to miss the point...at least the games I run. I'd rather they roleplay their way thru the adventure than hack-n-slash...
@@WylochsArmory Oh man, I had opened it the moment it dropped and left the tab open for the last few days. Finally watched it today and I thought it was great! I guess it was kind of an odd one out for your channel's typical style since it wasn't your art but the art of D&D and you were talking about it. But I thought it was very well done. Maybe just didn't have the typical click through rate for your main viewers/subscribers.
You hit it right on the head! I agree with 100% of your review and criticism. Well done Will! Can't wait for Neon Skies to be in my hands :) Congrats on getting the KS funded!!
Couldnt agree more with all your points....anime, elf ears, multiclassing, cover art. I backed Neon Skies, and am looking forward to it! Keep the vids coming. (We really need another super-build from a classic module!) Those were badass :)
Nah, the wierd Elf ears in Zelda weren't as long as all that. They were extremely pointy and close to that shape if you zoom up on just the ears, but it was Warcraft 3 that made that silhouette for the head as a whole by making the ears so enormously long and out at that angle. Zelda character ears were still close to the sides of the head like more common real ears even when they were that pointy, and when they went out to the sides they were too small to be the same thing. So maybe Zelda was the seed of the issue, but the sprout was Warcraft 3, and the sapling was World of Warcraft. It wasn't something every other artist seemed to latch onto until after World of Warcraft.
Like that is your opinion man… actually I totally agree with you on elf ears and anime can stay out of d&d. But 3/3.5 books look the best. I am not here to talk about if it is the best game. But they look the best. This art direction is better than pathfinder. But I have seen Shadow Dark, Old School Essentials and Dungeon Crawl Classic. When I tend to picture my world like their art work.
I'm with you regarding Multi classing. Haven't allowed it since 3e. I want my players to choose a role and stick to it. I also prohibited multiple players playing the same race/class combination.
That's a horrific DMG cover.
This alt cover art is just *bad* compared to the old 5e alt covers. You'd think with their budget they could do better.
On the DMG cover, Venger may be standing over the D&D version of the "Black Cauldron", which when activated spews forth hundreds of skeleton warriors. ;)
I agree on most fronts. Though for me I adore Wayne Reynold's art and thats part of what is iconic with Pathfinder. I think more than anything, its the homogenizing I see that bothers me. I dont know if thats due to the internet and everyone gets so many influences, especially from the most popular or viral, and it all blurs together, or its enforced by corporate style sheets and doesnt given artists breathing room. I think theres also a lost soul with a lot of digital art. With most physical art, if you mess up or have an errant mark, its hard to completely undo and you end up encorporating it into the composition and that humanity shines through more. So really with DND fantasy art in general, i want a little of that roughness. I was talking to a friend about this the other week and I slipped and said "bad" art from editions past and that wasnt right. There was a deeper rawness and scrappiness to it that really felt at home with the fantasy D&D offers.
10" Elf ears started becoming mainstream with Warcraft 3, and then really git it huge with World of Warcraft. Warcraft 3 also introduced the Elf eyebrows that grow out to the sides so long they go past the now 10" Elf ears. Just look up an image of Kaelthas and you'll see how they looked in Frozen Throne in like 2002 or whenever that one came out. After WoW made it the norm for MMOs, Anime took it up and now you have a 50:50 chance Elves in your new fiction will come with some form of antennas or not.
Not sure if it’s where two foot long elf ears originated from but the earliest place I’ve seen elf ears that would make doors inconvenient was in Warcraft
Lodoss War Deedlit
I agreed with everything you said about each image except that I didn't especially like the dragon heating the coffee. At a glance I was intrigued and I do like the things that Wyloch liked such as the grungy sort of color scheme and cavernous setting, but there were too many things that I noticed immediately afterward which made me lose my appreciation for it.
The flow of that image suggests that the top half of the image was added on after it had already been composed without it. There's no good flow for the image as a whole. The other thing I don't like about it is that that appears to be a gold dragon, one of the proudest and most noble of the most noble species in the D&D universe and yet it has prostrated its head so low that its regal whiskers are dragging in the dirt just to heat a teapot. A teapot mind you that it could just brew higher in the air. And to add to that the light source appears to be the teapot itself despite the pot not being lit, and even the heat source is hot air and smoke from the dragon's nostrils which not only does not produce light but smoke even obscures it. Once more the light appears to fade away on one part of the dragon that's closer to the pot on the left side of the image, and yet is full volume against a part of the dragon that's much farther away in top right area of the image (which is part of what makes me think the image was composed as the lower section and the top section was added later on).
The dragon's curls are also much cleaner and more convincing in the lower section and becomes confused in the upper section. It doesn't feel like a D&D dragon, which could be a good thing given that it's a serpent dragon instead of a traditional western style one, but the prostrated pose and whiskers on the ground completely defies the fact that Asian serpent dragons were gods as opposed to the western trope of monsters that need slaying. So switching to a serpent dragon and then making it posed that way is a fairly disruptive contradiction in all the wrong ways. This might have been a draw to the image except for 2 major issues. 1 is that the characters are nicely drawn in a very muted style which makes them feel like "just another adventurer" in a way I really like, but that in contrast to the dragon's whiskers in the dirt doesn't fly for me. If they seemed important or heroic like they just saved the day it could be a sign of appreciation for what they did and who they are, but as is it only serves to diminish the dragon itself. For 2 and much more important is the dead eye of the dragon. It looks almost like it's being mind controlled or has the mind of an animal instead of a sentient thinking godlike thing.
And also, like, what is the rogue doing? Not participating in the tea? Is it keeping watch despite the dragon having true sight? Why is the light up there around the rogue to illuminate its hiding place without a proper light source, and why would a rogue choose that spot if it's lit up like that?
All of these things lead me to 1 of either of these 2 assumptions:
1) The "party" below are the villains that have somehow managed to mind control and enslave a godlike golden dragon, reducing its mind to that of a domesticated beast, and what they have chosen to do with such a person turned into a powerful new tool of destruction is that they commanded it to make them tea. The rogue is not scouting, but rather getting into position to pounce and save the dragon from its captors while they're distracted by their tea time. Part of the dragon's mind is still free, and it is moving its tail to aid the rogue in getting the perfect vantage point for the rogue to pounce.
2) This is not D&D and is instead Pokemon. The party is using their serpentine Charizard to brew tea before they cuddle it to sleep for warmth. The dragon also knows the HM "Flash" and is illuminating the cave from an ambiguous light source. The rogue is climbing the dragon like a playground because he likes to feel the excitement of being off the ground and he got the zoomies from the tea he drank much faster than the others. What a great bunch of kiddos. XD
Today is my birthday so I backed your kickstarter and even got the screen and dice
Thank you kindly! Want me to sign it? Send me a message via kickstarter...
'Most' cases of overly-long ears can be traced back to the elves from Lodoss War. Some would say Zelda- that's not actually true. Hylian ears only got to their modern lengths during the 90s (notably shorter and more 'upright' in 80s artwork), whereas Lodoss elves always had super-long ears (as an aside, this is the main reason why elves in Warcraft have immense ears, and Warcraft's artstyle has had its own lasting effect...)
I say most, as Lodoss War is now somewhat forgotten, being some 34 years old as an anime and the dnd campaign it was based on older still. The books're like, 40 or so now?
Oh man, I knew it wasn't Zelda since like you said the ears in Zelda were similarly shaped on their own, but were specifically much closer to the sides of the head like more common real human ears. But I thought it was Warcraft that started it.
I still think that it was World of Warcraft that made it popular, though. Those ears weren't anywhere near as common until the Warcraft art filled the internet, and until there were so many copycat art style games based on Warcraft's style, especially other direct copycat MMORPGs. So yeah that might have come first, but I don't think it's why it's so popular today. Not the driving force that spread the style around the world.
@@Will_Forge That's why I said 'traced back to', rather than 'because of'. It's also why I mentioned Warcraft had had its own impact on fantasy art.
I'll admit I could've worded it better, but it's not too often I get a free chance to bring up Lodoss (and on occasion Magical/Rune Soldier Louie)
I love overrepresentation of the types of people who don't play. Mmm. Gimmie more of that 'For Modern Audience.'
100% agree concerning limited-time FOMO nonsense. I don't mind the core idea of alternate covers, per se, but only when it isn't limited edition; otherwise, it just kinda sucks knowing I can't buy a cooler version of a game or what-have-you because I didn't get in on it at release.
As for the art, I think the PHB and MM look fantastic, but the DMG feels... Off. The PHB and MM are highly dynamic, creating the sense that we're catching a glimpse of an ongoing scene, while the DMG feels static, as if they've all been staged with no discernable purpose. The colors also vibrate in an uncomfortable way (color theory term), and the composition feels less cohesive; each character is completely detached from the others, whereas the PHB and MM have them interacting. To be clear, I don't mean to cast any asperity on the artist--he's exceptionally talented, and it's a very well painted piece on its own. It just feels the most out of place of the three covers to me.
Ya but .... NEON SKIEZ!!
The artists involved comment made me laugh as all these covers are AI art also you are the only person I've seen say anything good about them.
why did you say Vengers name weird Ven gar I don't know who that's meant to be take the A and the S away from avengers and then you might be able to say it correctly 😅 ven-ger.
I take it you've never watched the original Dungeons and Dragons cartoon I'm surprised about this how very odd 🤨
What is your evidence that these are AI art?
If these are AI art I'll delete this video right now
Gotta admint, I don't like multiclassing either. Trying to make DnD characters that are killing machines is in my opinion starting to miss the point...at least the games I run. I'd rather they roleplay their way thru the adventure than hack-n-slash...
LOL you get a thumbs up for awarding my favorite grade of F+
I accessed this video from notifications but now it is unlisted... Is there a reason for that?
Nobody was watching it. It was a death spiral for future metrics. But thank you for clicking.
@@WylochsArmory Oh man, I had opened it the moment it dropped and left the tab open for the last few days. Finally watched it today and I thought it was great! I guess it was kind of an odd one out for your channel's typical style since it wasn't your art but the art of D&D and you were talking about it. But I thought it was very well done. Maybe just didn't have the typical click through rate for your main viewers/subscribers.
Paused to comment at 5:00. "Godlike DM." Sir, the DM is /in charge/ of the gods. :p
After they went woke.... stopped playing or buying any of their products.
You hit it right on the head! I agree with 100% of your review and criticism. Well done Will! Can't wait for Neon Skies to be in my hands :) Congrats on getting the KS funded!!
WAKE UP GUYS WYLOCH UPLOADED
Be advised. It's a junk video.
@@WylochsArmory LOL (i can’t believe you replied i love ur channel sm)
“I don’t like anime. I don’t like cartoon or whimsy”
Ah you hate fun! Got it 🤣 ❤
Wyloch is in the curmudgeon arc
Yes, that was Minsc! Did you not notice Boo jumping from him?!
Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!! "RUSK"?!
Couldnt agree more with all your points....anime, elf ears, multiclassing, cover art. I backed Neon Skies, and am looking forward to it! Keep the vids coming. (We really need another super-build from a classic module!) Those were badass :)
Got one on the docket....
You sold me on these new issues more than anyone else.
The legend of Zelda brought us the weird elf ears.
Nah, the wierd Elf ears in Zelda weren't as long as all that. They were extremely pointy and close to that shape if you zoom up on just the ears, but it was Warcraft 3 that made that silhouette for the head as a whole by making the ears so enormously long and out at that angle. Zelda character ears were still close to the sides of the head like more common real ears even when they were that pointy, and when they went out to the sides they were too small to be the same thing. So maybe Zelda was the seed of the issue, but the sprout was Warcraft 3, and the sapling was World of Warcraft. It wasn't something every other artist seemed to latch onto until after World of Warcraft.
Venger is pronounced "ven-jer" like "avenger"
Thanks
Like that is your opinion man… actually I totally agree with you on elf ears and anime can stay out of d&d.
But 3/3.5 books look the best. I am not here to talk about if it is the best game. But they look the best. This art direction is better than pathfinder. But I have seen Shadow Dark, Old School Essentials and Dungeon Crawl Classic. When I tend to picture my world like their art work.
I liked the art for the 4th edition. Part of that was the mostly consistent look.
I'm with you regarding Multi classing. Haven't allowed it since 3e. I want my players to choose a role and stick to it. I also prohibited multiple players playing the same race/class combination.
What are you an art critic?