I heard an announcer yesterday while watching the Nets & OKC game where he basically said. “Well Giannis got 2, and Jokic got 2. So it makes it right that Embiid gets 1”. Like we giving out MVPs out of sympathy now lol
@@youngmelo1841 he’s averaging 33.5, 10, and like 5 assist on great defense quit hating. I don’t like Embiid, but he deserves it. I like Giannis over both of them though.
I think Jokić’s MVP’s are a bit odd because during each of his MVP seasons circumstances kept changing to where it logically wouldn’t make sense not to give it to him based on the criteria he was evaluated on during his previous one. 2021: Great statistical performance, top 3 seed 2022: Even better stats, dragged a would be bottom-5 team to the 6th seed 2023 (potentially): Averaged a triple double, when healthy his team became the uncontested best record in the west. In a way, Jokić kind of broke the systems evaluation criteria.
I believe a lot of the circumstances for the 2 MVP's actually just happened to occur in seasons that the competition really broke down at some degree. 2021 - Joel lost his case to injuries, Giannis didn't have the narrative, KD injured, Steph missed time injured and the W's were terrible that year. 2022 - Joel and Giannis' teams kinda underperformed in the second half of the season, leading to the top 3 candidates all on comparable records winning wise while the Nuggets were completely screwed up and Bucks and sixers were generally healthy. Also Steph didn't play his best and KD got injured again This year is the first one were they're all on peak performance and leading their teams to top seeds all at once. That's why it might be the best race of all
In a way he's taking advantage of the voters lack of consistency these days, not intentionally of course because it just turned out that his main weapons were injured so he had to pick up alot of slack until they came back
@@ronaldomendoza7578 if you ask me, any complaints about his MVP’s should be directed at the voters not having a consistent set of values for MVP. Not at Jokic because he supposedly isn’t good enough to deserve it when he very much is.
@@ryanlucca5324 Yeah those are valid point, I just don’t like how people are acting like this a Steve Nash 2 time MVP situation when it definitely isn’t. Jokić is more than good enough to deserve those MVP’s. Any problem with that has more to do with the voters lacking a clear set of criteria which seems to change every few years.
@@CJ_Espinoza Of course, its not like Jokic is rigging the votes, he's just playing basketball the best he can for the team. I just pointed out how his situation led to him fitting the criteria as a coincidence.
Nothing has really changed. It's always been 2 paths..... A. Be the best player on the "best" team. B. Have a "record setting" statistical season AND be above .500.
It’s crazy that Devin Booker didn’t get at least one single first place vote for leading his team to a 64 win team. Not one biased media member of team winning first gave Booker one but one from New York gave Melo a random mvp vote in 2013 that should’ve been unanimous for LeBron that season.
Unfortunately as a suns fan, most people who didn’t follow our team had the mainstream narrative that it was “Chris Paul’s team” because we went to the finals in his first season In phoenix
BECAUSE HE'S NOT A LEADER!!! Dude put up 70 in a loss cos he's a star junkie. CP3 is why the Suns improved- as is always the case when he joins a team.
I just hate what LOW says about “traditionalists” at 12:08. You really dont have to even go far back in history at all. They told us Harden didn’t win enough for MVP in 2015 & 2019. They told us Wade didn’t win enough for MVP in 2009. They told us Kobe didn’t win enough for MVP in all the Kwame years. They told us KG didn’t win enough to beat Duncan for MVP. Giannis literally got blocked from 3-peating because of the playoffs two years ago. But now the fans that watched their favorite players miss out on the award for decades are “dumb” because they call out the media breaking that criteria for Jokic? Saying “We can’t let old mistakes dictate the present” is saying all those guys above deserved more awards, you guys were right, we’re doing it this way now. So now a guy like Embiid (last year) who would’ve won it any other year, has to go without an MVP for that season.
It’s inherently inconsistent to change with the game and the audience watching it. The real solution is to stop giving so much of a shit about the MVP when it’s dependent entirely on context that gets forgotten.
The weird part to me about this MVP things the person who gives the least amount of craps who wins is jokic he plays basketball he plays it while the rest of it is noise
The biggest thing I have learned from this MVP race is that we need a more accurate way of determining defensive ability. The advanced defensive metrics supporting Jokic being a similar level of defender as Giannis and Embiid is outrageous. Our stats are simply inadequate, and this MVP race proves that.
I think most of the offensive stats are pretty good, but yeah the defensive stats suck. Nobody who actually watches the games thinks Jokic is good defender
The problem is that the defensive stats that we have can be affected by absurd offensive production. You look at DBPM, generally speaking it highly rates the guys you would expect to be top defenders. The outliers are all guys who are so good on offense that it warps the metric's BPM part, like Jokic.
I think the argument to place an emphasis on defense is that when you have a candidate valuable on BOTH ends of the floor it's very hard for a player only valuable on one end to be MORE VALUABLE. If all 5 candidates were defensive liabilities then Jokic would probably be the #1 candidate.
On that second point about the MVP being before the playoffs.. I think the reason y people factor in the post season is because the trophy itself is awarded during the playoffs. Also because u d expect the MVP to be valuable enough to make the post season, but I think it's my first point that gets people confused
*No Jokić’s argument last year and the year before were that he was #1 in PER, #1 in WS, #1 in BPM and #1 in VORP and his argument this year is that he’s #1 in PER, #1 in WS, #1 in BPM and #1 in VORP*
@@Some_One_456 So winning doesn't mean anything? If a team is bottom of the league but a player on that team has the best per ,win shares etc you would still say they should win mvp?
@@Some_One_456 no Jokics argument last year was that they won nearly 50 games while his best players were hurt all year, Giannis had led his team to the best record in the league with Middleton gone almost the whole year, putting up just as impressive stats with dpoy defense
Just like they said about Giannis, Jokic has never touched a finals or won a championship and that held them back from giving Giannis his third straight that he deserved and with the voters fatigue bs. Jokic deserves the same treatment and to get his third straight stripped from him as well
i just hate how the mvp is an emotional thing for a lot of people. why do we have to tear down other great season by incredible players in order to explain why we believe someone should win the award? it's just a toxic and reductive way to go about things imo. that's why i like this take. no bashing of others just your preference and why. you also make a lot of great arguments like i personally have agreed with for years about the "well x player didn't get this treatment so why should y player get it?" the award has felt like a joke due to it being narrative driven and i wish we could have some rubric to determine mvp but that's likely to never happen. thanks for the video
Exactly!! We should be congratulating Jokic he accomplished something kinda historic in the modern era, others can win championships and such and we congratulate them show respect and move on, can’t we do that for Jokic too?? It’s crazy how things have changed for the worst in the past 10 years, a lot of negative things have happened and made everyone angry and hateful, nothing can be enjoyed anymore.
@@jerrym1218the jokic victim card is so fucking funny. No one was saying this when it was embiid on the other side. Now that it’s a race, all of a sudden there’s something wrong with the MVP? Hmmm….
I just don’t understand how you can win MVP with 3 COMPLETELY different narratives each year…..when Lebron and MJ were doing what they were doing to win their MVPs every season and couldn’t get 3 in a row. How does that make any sense? Jokic if he wins this season, has won MVP for 3 different reasons like wtf? But Lebron averages the exact same thing he did when he won MVP and somehow doesn’t get it again? MJ doesn’t get it again? Kobe? Etc, that shit is extremely head scratching, if he can win it 3 different times with 3 different narratives, this shit is cooked.
LeBron and Jordan didn't win three in a row because voters made terrible and dumb decisions. You don't punish players today for dumb decisions in the past, they should be judged based upon the year they are having, not the stupidity or inconsistency of the past.
@@jamesmarshall6619 like i said, winning 3 different MVPs for 3 whole separate reasons with the only consistency being some advanced stats that both Giannis and Embiid are right there as well, doesn’t make much sense to me. Last season it was he was missing his teammates and was still able to hold a non play in playoff spot but Giannis this season has the best record in the league with Middleton and Jrue missing a lot of time? Where’s his cool points for that? Last season embiid was rolling out with Andre Drummond and Seth curry to start the season and kept the 76rs head above water until they traded for harden at the deadline, where is his cool points for that? Those are the same exact things that Niggas are sucking Jokic up for but nobody mentions that for them two, not only that but they’re literally two of the best defensive players as well while Jokic is well below average on that side of the ball…..shits baffling to me that all these narratives have won him these MVPs but those narratives apply to his counter parts as well and this is going to b his 3rd for a completely different reason 😂.
@@calebstevens9446 well narratives are stupid to begin with.Two years ago with some injuries, COVID, Jokic had the best year in a year where there wasn't really a bunch of great choices. Last year all three of these guys had full seasons, were really great, the total voting wasn't close but that doesn't mean voters didn't struggle with their vote nor does it mean they went along with whatever narrative was popular at the time. The assumption is all of these MVP voters are voting for him based upon whatever the popular narrative is in that season but we don't know that to be true. Some of these voters might be very consistent, some of them may be looking at all of the context within each year. Fans just assume it's about narratives without actually knowing if that is even the reason any single voter votes for MVP based upon whatever prevailing narrative there is at the time. It could just be the look at all three guys, know it's close, struggle to on who to pick, think all three deserve, and then figure out their vote. I'm sure some voters are wildly inconsistent, buy into narratives but we have no clue what the proportion of those are, it's all speculation.
Jordan and Lebron are doing just fine, they are multiple times Champions, to them that weeds out any MVP trophy. Back in the day that was the real thing that mattered and should matter, being a champion, or even better multi time champion.
@@mokitboy5283 why? He's clearly better than embiid. Giannis is probably better, but the circumstances for jokics first 2 mvps had giannis being either injured (1st mvp season) or having a team that was struggling despite being fully healthy (2nd year). So really, jokic was the clear mvp for both seasons
We should NEVER consider previous MVPs when deciding CURRENT MVP. Just be impressed by the greatness. What the real problem is we value this award so much because in 20 years ppl who didn't watch ball today will just look at Rewards. If we didn't automatically contribute MVP awards to greatness we wouldn't 1. Over think it or 2. Care this much about watching something as special as 3 straight MVPs
@Benjamin Weiss if you want to nitpick between Embiid and Jokic or Giannis that's fine. But to say Nikola Jokic wasn't great is something only a casual fan would say and sorry but I don't really talk ball with casual fans.
@Benjamin Weiss do you mean scoring between jokic and embiid? Because if thats how you determine offense you need to look more into basketball. Jokic is a much better passer than Embiid and the offense runs through him, scoring is not the only thing on offense lol. Embiid vs Jokic yeah embiid is winning that scoring match 90% of the time.
@Benjamin Weiss What a quality resonse you made... defeinetly did a "great job" making solid counter points and explaining why my points are wrong 🙄. its admirable af how can you write that comment out and post it like you said something while not saying anything.
I’m so confused man. You’re seriously gonna argue it’s okay to completely exclude defense, half the game of basketball, when determining the MVP because Jokic has more value on offense than defense? That’s trash
That’s retarded, you’re advocating for past mistakes to be repeated. Think about it for a minute. This season Jokic has BETTER STATS on BETTER EFFICIENCY on the FIRST SEED team than himself last year. He won last year, how could he not win this year?
All I know is Embiid dominated both Giannis and Joker literally when they went head on, I know what my eyes seen and it was obvious who was the better player. And if you don't know how fast we drop off once Embiid leaves the game, then you don't watch the Sixers..
it’s a performance based award with wins usually being accounted for. giannis has every argument that has ever been made. the statistics, the defense, the record, everything. there’s no pity MVPs. there’s no “all i know is embiid dominated both giannis and jokic”. that’s irrelevant. it’s not game by game that’s such a dumb argument. giannis had the record defense and stats, jokic has the record and historic numbers, and embiid is just the #1 scorer which imo he wouldn’t be if giannis got more minutes. giannis has dealt with more injuries to his team as well
It really is sad that most MVPs in sports don't feel valuable anymore. NFL has become a best QB award MLB is wildly inconsistent on what an MVP is NBA will take and give them out based off storyline instead of actual performance
@@princesslightning5447 its all stories. Media has co vinced people that qb is the most important position and so you have to have a historic season to break that. Along with basketball being oh you don't have a good story or we don't like you so no mvp for you. I also think the nbapa has to get that taken out of contracts for the next cba. Writers shouldn't be allowed to affect a players salary
@@princesslightning5447 Its kinda funny because the best player ever is a WR to some people, aka Jerry Rice (mainly because his career totals are absolutely insane from what I recall)
The same people who use the race card to say why the Joker won his last two are the kinda dudes that get turned down by a girl, and the go, “whatever you ugly anyway” NO LOGIC
11:38 this is a useless graphic without context, same problem with most advanced stats. It doesn’t account for the team they sat against or the fact that the Nuggets run an on/off advanced metric Ponzi scheme with Joker.
Man, GREAT analysis! My all-time favorite player was the first to win MVP when the sports writers started choosing: Julius "Dr. J." Erving in 1981. And it was a big deal. Prior to Doc winning in 1981, the last non-center to win MVP was Oscar Robertson in 1964! It had been a minute.
The question shouldn't be something like "Should Jokic be a back to back to back MVP?" it should *only* be "Should Jokic be the 22-23 MVP?" If the answer is yes I don't know what the issue is. Btw if "how bad was the team without them" has validity to it the award would be skewed in favor of guys like Luka or Houston James Harden, and might encourage guys to play in a way that makes their team entirely dependent on them, which always backfires.
Hate to burst your bubble but Giannis is 3rd right now in the race, and most likely won't win it. I'd like him to win it too, but I care more about that finals mvp
@@tigeryumyums9407 You definitely don't sound like you want that lol . But I have news flash for you , this race is so tight that there are no positions . When you pull out the definition of unanimous mvp , it says best player in the world on the team with the best record in the NBA . That is Gianniss case . The best case rn
@@nickc.4558 Giannis has been my favourite player since 15'. I'd love to see him win it. Unanimous MVP is irrelevant right now. There won't be a unanimous MVP this season. And yes Giannis is the best player in the world, but the MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the world. Hence why he hasn't won it the last 2 seasons, or why Lebron only has 4, MJ only has 5. Voters use a wide and somewhat convoluted measuring stick to pick MVP. And right now it doesn't look like Giannis has the narrative that the voters are looking for on his side. 3x MVP for Jokic sounds more attractive to them, or even the Sympathy MVP for Embiid. Both are ahead of Giannis with these narratives.
@@nickc.4558 Seems petty , but sure. I won't be upset. I'd actually be happy if he won. And winning historically has been the biggest narrative, however in the last 5 years, 2 players in the 6th seed won MVP. So it's a narrative that doesn't seem as important anymore. Peace.
You said all that just to go straight off stats. 😂 I thought you were going to say you can actually watch the games. Especially on defense, stats don’t tell you the whole story.
1. One good way to see who the MVP is is to answer the question: 2. "Which player given the award wouldn't make the majority upset?" 3. To me, Embiid is the best option to this question. 4. There are reasons to say that Giannis does not deserve it this year. 5. Jokic's defense problem is REAL. 6. Imagine now the possibility to give the award to Jason Tatum. 7. This is the reason not giving Booker a number one vote is not an issue. 8. As a Giannis should be the MVP guy, I think that Embiid deserves this year's MVP. 9. He has the stats, the winning and multiple key moments / highlights.
Bro, people don't vote for someone because they feel "sorry for them" and to make sure that they vote what everyone else is voting for. Democracy don't work that way.
someone getting Back to back to back MVP without even getting into the Finals is crazy. We know MVP is a singular prize and many people won without winning a ring but back to back TO BACK!?
It is a regular season MVP for that particular season. People keep bringing up past playoff performances and past regular season performances, when these should be irrelevant. Just look at the regular season in a vacuum. People keep judging based on the wrong scope of games.
@@TheJwalk1234 it was wrong then so you don't continue to do the same wrong now. If you believe Jordan, Kobe, Bron, and Giannis were wronged then but advocate for Jokic being wronged now then you really have no argument. It's a case of complaining about a past wrong yet justifying the same wrong thing occur for no other good or rational reason. If it was wrong then, and it was wrong then, it's wrong now and we shouldn't want voters continuing the same wrongs as though it will correct some past injustice because it won't.
The problem with relying on analytics only to decide the mvp is that there is no point of having voters if that’s the only thing to look at. Analytics aren’t perfect also because according to analytics Jokic is an all time great defender but anybody who’s seen him play knows that’s not even possible
@@blablablabla2572 you do when you play center the most important defensive position in basketball. You can hide a point guard, or shooting guard and a good center can make up for power forwards but if your center can't play defense your done
Soooooo a guy with a better record in a tougher division leading the league in scoring and is a elite defender at his position all the while being a top 3 defensive anchor and rim protector. Instead give it to a guy who is one of the worst defenders in the league, gives you 5 more assist but 10 less points is the way to go. I give up
Not really, we’re going off how they’re judged him the last 3 seasons. He’s about to win with 3 completely different narratives that the other candidates now have as well. Last season he was missing his two best players but hasn’t Giannis been missing his best players for a lot of this season? Plays both sides at an elite level and he has the best record in his conference? Why has the goalpost moved 3 different times for Jokic with the only consistency being some advanced stats that Giannis and Joel are also right up there with him? Last season who was on Embiids team b4 they traded for harden? Seth curry? Andre Drummond….? He had just as shit of a team as Jokic, so I don’t understand how he’s able to win with 3 completely different narratives. 😂
At the time of this comment embiid is averaging nearly 10 more points than Jokic at 33.4 which leads the league. Embiid is averaging more steals and blocks and effects the game defensively in ways that stats can’t track. Is leading his team to a better record at 46-22 vs the nuggets 46-23 and is in the tougher conference. 76ers are have the better record but they are the 3rd seed while the nuggets are the 1 seed.
its definitely not the only argument against jokic. a month ago yeah, probably, but since then embiid has gone on a tear and both the bucks and the sixers have a better record than the nuggets now, and both giannis/embiid are elite defenders while jokic is a mediocre one. there are three candidates that are worthy and jokic is not by any means head and shoulders above the other two at this point
@@sheepslayer649 embiid has not played nearly as many games as Giannis and hasn’t been as consistent. The Bucks have maintained the 1 seed despite the roster not being a full health cause Giannis has been great all season long. Sure Embiid has been hot lately but he does that almost every year and does nothing in the postseason
@@patrickferguson8775First of Embiid played two more game than Giannis and second the bucks managed to keep winning even when Giannis was out for injuries
Translation: stats numbers and the analytics determine the MVP much more than people do. So the MVP has changed but it’s becuz the numbers. 🤮🤮🤮 legend of winshares strikes again. I think you should become a baseball fan
I would have no problem with jokic getting the mvp this season if they gave it to embid last year. Annoys the shit outta me that jokic and russ both have mvps as lower seeds but kobe doesn't 🙄
Tbf the nuggets and 76ers were separated by 3 wins that’s it, also Jokic had like 6 more games played, only argument for Joel was he averaged 3 more points, definatly a close race and I can see why people wanted Joel, but the seeding is highly exaggerated.
@@PatrickJr1502 Those little context details dont change the fact jokic stole an mvp that was rightfully and objectively most deserving to joel embiid.
@@madridforever933 I mean I’m not finna fight wit u over an opinion so believe whatever u want no one stopping u. Again like I said twice Joel had a good case but acting like it was blatantly obviously him that deserved it is ignorant to what truly was the case.
Regular season mvp is not big deal imo. It only matters to the players who win because the economics is in their favor. Incentive bonus, sponsorships, contract negotiations, etc…I’ve always held Finals MVP to a higher regard.
@@daanishkhan9370 Obviously not we can also look at the rest of their careers to judge them. They said FMVP weighs more than MVP, not than an entire career with many awards and high stat totals.
For Jokic's sake I hope he doesn't win mvp...cuz if he doesn't make it far in the playoffs the slander would be crazy. Say what you will about the award being a regular szn award, but I have seen too many players not receive an MVP because of previous failed playoff pushes (i.e. Giannis) or because of voter fatigue (Lebron and Jordan). The fact the two objectively best players ever (along with other all-time greats) havent threepeated an MVP just puts even more pressure on Jokic if this happens.
Lebron and Jordan have never put up the seasons numbers Jokic has and no other center has either the guy is averaging a triple double for an entire season while shooting over 60% from the field don't compare him to them when clearly he's been better
If we in the new age of information and that’s why we should change the criteria for MVP then we should simply create another award to fully embrace this new age. Have MVP go to the best player who’s played 85% games on a top 3 seed and have another award like MIP (Most Impactful Player, although that might interfere with Most Improved Player so maybe another name). And give this new award to the players who’s had the most impact on their teams. The Russell Westbrooks and Jokics type seasons. Why change the criteria of a historic award bc “we in a new age” instead of creating a *new* award for the *new age*
And players should be able to win both if they could, that would make these award discussions at the end of the year better bc there would set criteria. Although I only said add a new award bc of LOWs argument that it’s a new age
A big part of it is the stat nerd section of the media that cannot admit that advanced analytics aren’t a perfect and infallible way to evaluate a player. They will vote for Jokic until the end of time no matter how little playoff success he has.
Here's the issues I have with the MVP race: 1. There's no clear cut definition of what the MVP looks like, and players get screwed because of the year to year change. One year it's the best player on the best team, others its a sympathy award for players that carry bad teams to wins. Personally, I would like it if they broke up the award of MVP into two awards kind of like how the NFL has an MVP and a OPOY award. The MVP is the best player on the best team, dubbed the Michael Jordan Award. I think it would be cool if the "Player of the Year" award, dubbed the Lebron James award, was the player that had the biggest impact on their team's record. So for instance, Jokic's 1st MVP would've instead gone to Giannis, and Jokic would've won player of the year that year. This way there isn't a script flip and one player gets screwed out of hardware because the narrative wasn't in their favor that year. 2. Voter fatigue is such a poor narrative or reason for why someone shouldn't win it. If Giannis deserved 3 straight MVPs, he should've gotten them. I think with my first point, it would be less likely that they get that and it would make it even more impressive if a player won both an MVP and a Player of the year in the same season. Like if you're having such a legendary season, you justifiably win both like 2013 Lebron, or 2016 Steph. 3. If Jokic wins this 3rd MVP, instead of giving the voters credit and saying hey voter fatigue is going away and players of Lebron or MJs caliber in the future could potentially get the right amount of MVPs they deserved, that should be a good thing. Despite the past several MVPs going to foreign born players, and several of the top votes from the last several MVP races going to almost exclusively foreign born players, the narrative becomes "well, Jokic is only winning them because he's white." Which completely disrespects that absolute insane level that he has played at the past few seasons and how he is quite literally revolutionizing the center position. Acting as though ESPN hasn't shown a clear bias against people who don't support their woke disney owned narrative (just look at Stephen A's comments on Luka Doncic before he got drafted but how amazing of a prospect Deandre Ayton was just because he was good in COLLEGE...or how they've handled EVERYTHING with Malika Andrews up to now). All in all the MVP feels like it loses more and more of it's prestige every year.
Its a winner by decision, kind of like boxing. A panel decides who should win. The thing is, every year is a different race. It sucks because theres not a consistent criteria..
Stats don't lie. So you have to look at stats. Jokic leads the NBA in LOOFTZORP, planck rating, Gant charting and z-axis clears per 100 shot clocks. He also has 13 game winning hockey assists while intentionally taking it easy in the first half of away games to reduce his fouls. These are clear MVP metrics. And Jokic is head and shoulders above the competition. It's not even close.
Boston fan? Check. Jokic is their MVP? Check. Pretty on brand at this point. Having Embiid at 3rd place right now is criminal lmao Boy, stick to ya MacDonalds burgers and leave the MVP discussion to actually valid basketball minds.
@@Shockkings0714 "Stick to rigging rituals of sports" see how i just destroyed your little beta argument with one retort? Yeah idc what you have to say little weak one.
@@Shockkings0714 See how ironic is it for you to say this as you're literally defending TWO of the 3 MVP candidates who are from EUROPE? pathetic. But judging by your dna make up and your voice in your videos, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed. Hopefully you make your family proud and rebound after failing as a youtuber.
If D means so much then why are the Nuggets’ net rating swing of 24.7 when Jokić is on the floor vs. when he’s off the floor is easily the largest of these three candidates. Also there is a award for best defender any ways. Don't think Shaq, Kareem and big guys like them would look has good in today's game. They use to hang out under the hoop and rest . Now they have to go out to the 3 point line lol. One thing about Jokic very few play offs and the defense gets zero rest off when he is in the game ZERO. MVP all the way. So much fun to watch.
The MVP award doesn't make any sense. It's an individual accomplishment that depends on team performance. If your teammates aren't hitting shots or getting stops then that impacts your odds of receiving the award. Which means it's not something an individual can control. Also, the MVP should be the best player in the league, because that's what the fans and other players treat it as. When players are being ranked, the MVP award becomes a determining factor for their placement, which isn't fair, because the recipient usually isn't the best player in the league at the time. They should do away with the award altogether or actually create a coherent criteria.
People like to discredit Jokic a lot because hes not much of a traditional athlete (like a lot of european players). You might not like it, but if Jokic continues to play like that for another 6-7 years, hes gonna have a case for top 10-15 all time. Thats how fucking great at basketball he is.
LoW also shifts between examining why previous ppl won mvp and who should win mvp. In the end though, LoW suggests that the mistakes of the past don’t matter anyway. If so, then each of us is free to use whatever metric we think is best. I think it is ok to consider who won previous years. Two is probably enough for Jokic even though this is prob his best season of the three.
Lol Embid is the mvp because hes the best player in the league and has been for 3 years. On both ends...raw and advance stats prove it. He has beat them up head to head too...
Question out of curiosity: Who’s the best player you don’t see listed here (my gut instinct is possibly Paul Pierce, though MVP’s didn’t exist until the last year of George Mikan’s career). This is every player who has ever finished top five in an MVP vote at least once: ABA Players (24): Connie Hawkins Doug Moe Mel Daniels Larry Jones Willie Somerset Jimmy Jones Rick Barry Spencer Haywood Roger Brown Bob Verga Zelmo Beaty Charlie Scott Dan Issel Artis Gilmore Billy Cunningham Julius Erving George McGinnis Ron Boone Joe Caldwell Willie Wise Bobby Jones Mack Calvin James Silas David Thompson NBA Players (97): Bob Pettit Paul Arzin Bob Cousy Mel Hutchins Dolph Schayes Bill Sharman George Yardley Bill Russell Maurice Stokes Elgin Baylor Wilt Chamberlain Oscar Robertson Jerry West Sam Jones Jerry Lucas Nate Thurmond Lenny Wilkens Dave Bing Wes Unseld Willis Reed Kareem Abdul Jabaar Walt Frazier John Havlicek Dave Cowens Tiny Archibald Bob McAdoo Bob Lainer Elvin Hayes Bill Walton Pete Maravich George Gervin David Thompson Walter Davis Moses Malone Bob Dandridge Larry Bird Dennis Johnson Dan Roundfield Robert Parish Gus Williams Magic Johnson Sidney Moncrief Bernard King Isiah Thomas Terry Cummings Dominique Wilkins Hakeem Olajuwon Michael Jordan Kevin McHale Charles Barkley Clyde Drexler Karl Malone Patrick Ewing David Robinson Scottie Pippen Shaquille O’Neil Penny Hardaway Grant Hill Tim Hardaway Glen Rice Gary Payton Tim Duncan Alonzo Mourning Allen Iverson Jason Kidd Kevin Garnett Chris Webber Tracy McGrady Kobe Bryant Jermaine O’Neil Peja Stojakovic Steve Nash Dirk Nowitski LeBron James Chauncey Billups Chris Paul Dwight Howard Dwayne Wade Kevin Durant Derrick Rose Tony Parker Carmelo Anthony Blake Griffin Joakim Noah James Harden Stephen Curry Russell Westbrook Anthony Davis Kawhi Leonard Isaiah Thomas Damian Lillard Giannis Antetokounmpo Paul George Nikola Jokic Luka Doncic Joel Embid Devin Booker
Criteria aside, it’s simple. Who’s better, the most dominant scorer in the nba and defensive anchor of the 2 seed in the much better east. Or the okay scoring, point center who is a turnstile on defense.
I would like your input on first team all nba. Just for context I am a 76ers fan but my question is how much sense does it make to you that even with Joel being a mvp runner up the last two seasons he’s voted a all nba 2nd team member? I know someone will mention the positions but as a fan of this sport we both know the league is practically position-less
Trying to diminish the importance of defense to the MVP discussion and likening it to the difference between between a player contributing via scoring or passing is ludicrous. Steve Nash and Magic did not necessarily have to score as much because they had others to do the scoring, they could focus on passing and still be very valuable to their teams. In the case of defense, you can’t simply say a player doesn’t need to defend because there are other defensive players on the team, you’ve got five players, every single one of them has to contribute on the defensive end or they are a liability, it’s not optional. The better a player is defensively the more valuable they are on the floor, period. It’s why Isaiah Thomas is out of the league, it’s why Mac McClung hasn’t been given a chance by any team. Even making this argument shows how many hoops you Jokic fans (or rather apologists ) will jump through to justify your man’s dubious MVP credentials.
difference between them is embidd has actually had the worst luck compared to the two embidd has had two drafts bust on his team and a worse roleplayers then joxic
It all depends on what you mean by "best player" some of yal have a awkward way of judging who was or is "the best" id love to hear who was "better" than all of those players you claim weren't the best but got the MVP
Holy crap. Did anyone else catch that? Embiid and Giannis on-court / off-court differentials are both around 7.9, while Jokic has an amazing difference of 24.8! Um, that is pretty compelling. They aren't going to give it to him, of course, because the league doesn't think he's good enough to get it 3 years in a row.
How about the MVP go to the best player on the worst team (by record). That should solve things: The most valuable player on the worst team. They need an award. That'll also stop narrative building by the media. Everyone will know clear as day who the best player on the worst team is.
No one sayin jokic is bad and his defense is why he doesn't win. Its bc he and embiid and giannis are so close and prolific in offense that the defensive impact is highlighted much more.
It's media "promoters" being toxic nitpickers. They're gonna hold on to anything they can find just to trash someone ruclips.net/video/HwOcoqly-50/видео.html
Giannis is the MVP and I'm tired of pretending he isn't because Jokic gets his advanced numbers juiced by never playing with bench players. Giannis is the best player, on the best team, playing the majority of the season without his second best player
Giannis has an army behind him. He's not playing with "bench" players. He's playing with all stars or near all stars(holiday,lopez), dpoy candidates (lopez, holidays), established veterans, established shooters and scorers (Ingles, Allen, connaughton, portis,crowder, carter), and many of these players are also great rebounders, like portis, one of the best rebounders in the league. Don't pretend you watch basketball
Everyone has their own metric for MVP. I take the words "Most Valuable Player" pretty literally. How valuable is a player to their respective team? Like if you take Giannis off the Bucks, where would they be? I think they are title contenders with him, but without him, probably play-in tournament or out of the playoffs entirely.
I heard an announcer yesterday while watching the Nets & OKC game where he basically said. “Well Giannis got 2, and Jokic got 2. So it makes it right that Embiid gets 1”. Like we giving out MVPs out of sympathy now lol
Lol that's the only reason Embiid would get it
Lmao
@@firstnamelastname3 yea with that same logic lmao
@@youngmelo1841 he’s averaging 33.5, 10, and like 5 assist on great defense quit hating. I don’t like Embiid, but he deserves it. I like Giannis over both of them though.
@@VictoriesAtTheMarathon embid and Jokic are deserving but I would also give it to Giannis this year
I think Jokić’s MVP’s are a bit odd because during each of his MVP seasons circumstances kept changing to where it logically wouldn’t make sense not to give it to him based on the criteria he was evaluated on during his previous one.
2021: Great statistical performance, top 3 seed
2022: Even better stats, dragged a would be bottom-5 team to the 6th seed
2023 (potentially): Averaged a triple double, when healthy his team became the uncontested best record in the west.
In a way, Jokić kind of broke the systems evaluation criteria.
I believe a lot of the circumstances for the 2 MVP's actually just happened to occur in seasons that the competition really broke down at some degree.
2021 - Joel lost his case to injuries, Giannis didn't have the narrative, KD injured, Steph missed time injured and the W's were terrible that year.
2022 - Joel and Giannis' teams kinda underperformed in the second half of the season, leading to the top 3 candidates all on comparable records winning wise while the Nuggets were completely screwed up and Bucks and sixers were generally healthy. Also Steph didn't play his best and KD got injured again
This year is the first one were they're all on peak performance and leading their teams to top seeds all at once. That's why it might be the best race of all
In a way he's taking advantage of the voters lack of consistency these days, not intentionally of course because it just turned out that his main weapons were injured so he had to pick up alot of slack until they came back
@@ronaldomendoza7578 if you ask me, any complaints about his MVP’s should be directed at the voters not having a consistent set of values for MVP. Not at Jokic because he supposedly isn’t good enough to deserve it when he very much is.
@@ryanlucca5324 Yeah those are valid point, I just don’t like how people are acting like this a Steve Nash 2 time MVP situation when it definitely isn’t. Jokić is more than good enough to deserve those MVP’s. Any problem with that has more to do with the voters lacking a clear set of criteria which seems to change every few years.
@@CJ_Espinoza Of course, its not like Jokic is rigging the votes, he's just playing basketball the best he can for the team. I just pointed out how his situation led to him fitting the criteria as a coincidence.
3:37 WHY TF DID D ROSE GET A 1st PLACE VOTE IN 2021 WTF 😭
… I’m a big fan of his and will support his 2011 MVP to the grave but cmon now
😂😂😂
This voter needs to be ban
😂 just saw that wtf
Probably same guy who gave voted Melo instead Lebron in 2013
I think there was a fan vote for MVP at one point and they scraped it after seeing D-Rose get a MVP vote
Nothing has really changed. It's always been 2 paths.....
A. Be the best player on the "best" team.
B. Have a "record setting" statistical season AND be above .500.
Jokic just happens to be doing both..
@@TizzleF the nuggets are definitely not the best team
@@traderjoes7976 they are number 1 in the west is all I am saying.
@@TizzleF the west is worst than the east
@@TizzleF i would be shocked if the nuggets made it to the finals but i hope they prove me wrong
Voter fatigue existed for lebron and MJ but apparently not for jokic
Existed for Giannis too but it makes no sense
and we all know why lol
@@fearlesstay If you know you know
They want more fans from overseas
@@fearlesstay stop being racist. A lot of voters are black. The vast majority if mvos are black. Stop beungbrecust because a white guy wins. Lmao
It’s crazy that Devin Booker didn’t get at least one single first place vote for leading his team to a 64 win team. Not one biased media member of team winning first gave Booker one but one from New York gave Melo a random mvp vote in 2013 that should’ve been unanimous for LeBron that season.
Luka exposed booker
@@rektz2457 brain dead
@@rektz2457 regular season award not playoff
Unfortunately as a suns fan, most people who didn’t follow our team had the mainstream narrative that it was “Chris Paul’s team” because we went to the finals in his first season In phoenix
BECAUSE HE'S NOT A LEADER!!!
Dude put up 70 in a loss cos he's a star junkie.
CP3 is why the Suns improved- as is always the case when he joins a team.
I love that centers have risen back to the top of the league.
The position was dead during most of the 2010s now it’s gonna be the premier position teams are looking for.
It’s nice to see. even given the last Center to win finals MVP was shaq
I just hate what LOW says about “traditionalists” at 12:08. You really dont have to even go far back in history at all.
They told us Harden didn’t win enough for MVP in 2015 & 2019.
They told us Wade didn’t win enough for MVP in 2009.
They told us Kobe didn’t win enough for MVP in all the Kwame years.
They told us KG didn’t win enough to beat Duncan for MVP.
Giannis literally got blocked from 3-peating because of the playoffs two years ago.
But now the fans that watched their favorite players miss out on the award for decades are “dumb” because they call out the media breaking that criteria for Jokic? Saying “We can’t let old mistakes dictate the present” is saying all those guys above deserved more awards, you guys were right, we’re doing it this way now. So now a guy like Embiid (last year) who would’ve won it any other year, has to go without an MVP for that season.
If the criteria wasn’t so inconsistent it would stop a lot more arguments 🤦🏾♂️
There are over 100 voters for MVP. That’s a lot of perspectives. Idk what to tell you at that point
It’s inherently inconsistent to change with the game and the audience watching it. The real solution is to stop giving so much of a shit about the MVP when it’s dependent entirely on context that gets forgotten.
The NBA needs to straight up make a list of what makes an MVP
Watching Rose lift up that trophy always make me tear up 😢
The weird part to me about this MVP things the person who gives the least amount of craps who wins is jokic he plays basketball he plays it while the rest of it is noise
The biggest thing I have learned from this MVP race is that we need a more accurate way of determining defensive ability. The advanced defensive metrics supporting Jokic being a similar level of defender as Giannis and Embiid is outrageous. Our stats are simply inadequate, and this MVP race proves that.
The defensive advanced stats have Jokic as a top 5 defender of all time
I think most of the offensive stats are pretty good, but yeah the defensive stats suck. Nobody who actually watches the games thinks Jokic is good defender
The problem is that the defensive stats that we have can be affected by absurd offensive production. You look at DBPM, generally speaking it highly rates the guys you would expect to be top defenders. The outliers are all guys who are so good on offense that it warps the metric's BPM part, like Jokic.
I think the argument to place an emphasis on defense is that when you have a candidate valuable on BOTH ends of the floor it's very hard for a player only valuable on one end to be MORE VALUABLE. If all 5 candidates were defensive liabilities then Jokic would probably be the #1 candidate.
“Stop being dumb” took me out 😂😂😂
*Harden & Embiid gonna have the most 2nd place MVP Finishes of All-Time 😭😭😭*
On that second point about the MVP being before the playoffs.. I think the reason y people factor in the post season is because the trophy itself is awarded during the playoffs.
Also because u d expect the MVP to be valuable enough to make the post season, but I think it's my first point that gets people confused
I love how you broke it down with logic bro. Completely agree with the points you pointed out nice video
Jokic’s argument last year is the same for Giannis this year, and Jokic is still favored smh
*No Jokić’s argument last year and the year before were that he was #1 in PER, #1 in WS, #1 in BPM and #1 in VORP and his argument this year is that he’s #1 in PER, #1 in WS, #1 in BPM and #1 in VORP*
@@Some_One_456 So winning doesn't mean anything? If a team is bottom of the league but a player on that team has the best per ,win shares etc you would still say they should win mvp?
@@Some_One_456 no Jokics argument last year was that they won nearly 50 games while his best players were hurt all year, Giannis had led his team to the best record in the league with Middleton gone almost the whole year, putting up just as impressive stats with dpoy defense
@@marlowstanfield6815 Jokic is on the top of his conference so...
Just like they said about Giannis, Jokic has never touched a finals or won a championship and that held them back from giving Giannis his third straight that he deserved and with the voters fatigue bs. Jokic deserves the same treatment and to get his third straight stripped from him as well
i just hate how the mvp is an emotional thing for a lot of people. why do we have to tear down other great season by incredible players in order to explain why we believe someone should win the award? it's just a toxic and reductive way to go about things imo. that's why i like this take. no bashing of others just your preference and why. you also make a lot of great arguments like i personally have agreed with for years about the "well x player didn't get this treatment so why should y player get it?" the award has felt like a joke due to it being narrative driven and i wish we could have some rubric to determine mvp but that's likely to never happen. thanks for the video
Exactly!!
We should be congratulating Jokic he accomplished something kinda historic in the modern era, others can win championships and such and we congratulate them show respect and move on, can’t we do that for Jokic too??
It’s crazy how things have changed for the worst in the past 10 years, a lot of negative things have happened and made everyone angry and hateful, nothing can be enjoyed anymore.
@@jerrym1218the jokic victim card is so fucking funny. No one was saying this when it was embiid on the other side. Now that it’s a race, all of a sudden there’s something wrong with the MVP? Hmmm….
@@5115neo Well, I guess we just wait to see what happens in the NBA the next 10 years, things can’t always go everyone’s way.
Kobe only 1 MVP. That’s highway robbery.
But 5 NBA Championships, I’d say that he was happy with that ☺️👍🏼.
I just don’t understand how you can win MVP with 3 COMPLETELY different narratives each year…..when Lebron and MJ were doing what they were doing to win their MVPs every season and couldn’t get 3 in a row. How does that make any sense? Jokic if he wins this season, has won MVP for 3 different reasons like wtf? But Lebron averages the exact same thing he did when he won MVP and somehow doesn’t get it again? MJ doesn’t get it again? Kobe? Etc, that shit is extremely head scratching, if he can win it 3 different times with 3 different narratives, this shit is cooked.
LeBron and Jordan didn't win three in a row because voters made terrible and dumb decisions. You don't punish players today for dumb decisions in the past, they should be judged based upon the year they are having, not the stupidity or inconsistency of the past.
@@jamesmarshall6619 like i said, winning 3 different MVPs for 3 whole separate reasons with the only consistency being some advanced stats that both Giannis and Embiid are right there as well, doesn’t make much sense to me. Last season it was he was missing his teammates and was still able to hold a non play in playoff spot but Giannis this season has the best record in the league with Middleton and Jrue missing a lot of time? Where’s his cool points for that? Last season embiid was rolling out with Andre Drummond and Seth curry to start the season and kept the 76rs head above water until they traded for harden at the deadline, where is his cool points for that? Those are the same exact things that Niggas are sucking Jokic up for but nobody mentions that for them two, not only that but they’re literally two of the best defensive players as well while Jokic is well below average on that side of the ball…..shits baffling to me that all these narratives have won him these MVPs but those narratives apply to his counter parts as well and this is going to b his 3rd for a completely different reason 😂.
@@calebstevens9446 well narratives are stupid to begin with.Two years ago with some injuries, COVID, Jokic had the best year in a year where there wasn't really a bunch of great choices. Last year all three of these guys had full seasons, were really great, the total voting wasn't close but that doesn't mean voters didn't struggle with their vote nor does it mean they went along with whatever narrative was popular at the time. The assumption is all of these MVP voters are voting for him based upon whatever the popular narrative is in that season but we don't know that to be true. Some of these voters might be very consistent, some of them may be looking at all of the context within each year. Fans just assume it's about narratives without actually knowing if that is even the reason any single voter votes for MVP based upon whatever prevailing narrative there is at the time. It could just be the look at all three guys, know it's close, struggle to on who to pick, think all three deserve, and then figure out their vote. I'm sure some voters are wildly inconsistent, buy into narratives but we have no clue what the proportion of those are, it's all speculation.
Jordan and Lebron are doing just fine, they are multiple times Champions, to them that weeds out any MVP trophy.
Back in the day that was the real thing that mattered and should matter, being a champion, or even better multi time champion.
When it comes to all time rankings mvps should play just about 0 role theyre kinda just for fun at this point
Keep spitting. If Jokic wins it this year, I'll will just stop giving it any value. He shouldn't be near Giannis amd Embiid in the conversation
@@mokitboy5283 why? He's clearly better than embiid. Giannis is probably better, but the circumstances for jokics first 2 mvps had giannis being either injured (1st mvp season) or having a team that was struggling despite being fully healthy (2nd year). So really, jokic was the clear mvp for both seasons
We should NEVER consider previous MVPs when deciding CURRENT MVP.
Just be impressed by the greatness.
What the real problem is we value this award so much because in 20 years ppl who didn't watch ball today will just look at Rewards.
If we didn't automatically contribute MVP awards to greatness we wouldn't 1. Over think it or 2. Care this much about watching something as special as 3 straight MVPs
@Benjamin Weiss if you want to nitpick between Embiid and Jokic or Giannis that's fine. But to say Nikola Jokic wasn't great is something only a casual fan would say and sorry but I don't really talk ball with casual fans.
@Benjamin Weiss do you mean scoring between jokic and embiid? Because if thats how you determine offense you need to look more into basketball. Jokic is a much better passer than Embiid and the offense runs through him, scoring is not the only thing on offense lol. Embiid vs Jokic yeah embiid is winning that scoring match 90% of the time.
@Benjamin Weiss What a quality resonse you made... defeinetly did a "great job" making solid counter points and explaining why my points are wrong 🙄.
its admirable af how can you write that comment out and post it like you said something while not saying anything.
@@SolaceMcflythe defensive gap between jokic and embiid is 50000x larger than the gap between passing. 36 points compared to 24 points
@@benjaminweiss1817Jokic is definitely up there with Giannis and Embiid u just a dumb hater that’s it
The close-up shot on Bill Walton's white skin made me laugh out loud
I’m so confused man. You’re seriously gonna argue it’s okay to completely exclude defense, half the game of basketball, when determining the MVP because Jokic has more value on offense than defense? That’s trash
ruclips.net/video/HwOcoqly-50/видео.html
If Giannis didnt deserve 3 in a row due to "voter fatigue" Jokic doesnt either
The problem is Neckbeard Smark Analysts took over the system
Wow, ppl really hating on jokic because he's white
That’s retarded, you’re advocating for past mistakes to be repeated. Think about it for a minute. This season Jokic has BETTER STATS on BETTER EFFICIENCY on the FIRST SEED team than himself last year. He won last year, how could he not win this year?
@@rektz2457 you sound like perk
@@nicholausbell2749 Perk: Someone Get Millennial Smark On This He'd Have An Field Day
All I know is Embiid dominated both Giannis and Joker literally when they went head on, I know what my eyes seen and it was obvious who was the better player. And if you don't know how fast we drop off once Embiid leaves the game, then you don't watch the Sixers..
it’s a performance based award with wins usually being accounted for. giannis has every argument that has ever been made. the statistics, the defense, the record, everything. there’s no pity MVPs. there’s no “all i know is embiid dominated both giannis and jokic”. that’s irrelevant. it’s not game by game that’s such a dumb argument. giannis had the record defense and stats, jokic has the record and historic numbers, and embiid is just the #1 scorer which imo he wouldn’t be if giannis got more minutes. giannis has dealt with more injuries to his team as well
It really is sad that most MVPs in sports don't feel valuable anymore.
NFL has become a best QB award
MLB is wildly inconsistent on what an MVP is
NBA will take and give them out based off storyline instead of actual performance
Honestly that’s why I don’t like the MVP for Football bc it’s only QBs like wtf why
@@princesslightning5447 its all stories. Media has co vinced people that qb is the most important position and so you have to have a historic season to break that. Along with basketball being oh you don't have a good story or we don't like you so no mvp for you.
I also think the nbapa has to get that taken out of contracts for the next cba. Writers shouldn't be allowed to affect a players salary
@@princesslightning5447 Its kinda funny because the best player ever is a WR to some people, aka Jerry Rice (mainly because his career totals are absolutely insane from what I recall)
@@princesslightning5447 I honestly wish they would do something similar to the Cy Young for QBs, and have an MVP for non QBs
Blame joxic for ruining mvp prestige he's a fraud
The same people who use the race card to say why the Joker won his last two are the kinda dudes that get turned down by a girl, and the go, “whatever you ugly anyway” NO LOGIC
THIS!!!!!!¡
11:38 this is a useless graphic without context, same problem with most advanced stats. It doesn’t account for the team they sat against or the fact that the Nuggets run an on/off advanced metric Ponzi scheme with Joker.
Solz and Sage definitely gonna react to this
YEP
Man, GREAT analysis! My all-time favorite player was the first to win MVP when the sports writers started choosing: Julius "Dr. J." Erving in 1981. And it was a big deal. Prior to Doc winning in 1981, the last non-center to win MVP was Oscar Robertson in 1964! It had been a minute.
Were most teams in the later 60’s, and 70’s built on their centers?
The question shouldn't be something like "Should Jokic be a back to back to back MVP?" it should *only* be "Should Jokic be the 22-23 MVP?" If the answer is yes I don't know what the issue is.
Btw if "how bad was the team without them" has validity to it the award would be skewed in favor of guys like Luka or Houston James Harden, and might encourage guys to play in a way that makes their team entirely dependent on them, which always backfires.
Nor me..
"Embiid should win cos Giannis and Jokic have already won it"
The problem is that people like LeBron, MJ, and Kobe have been robbed, but the possibility of Jokic being robbed is not even being entertained.
@@brandone.5106
Kobe is DEAD (and retired before that)!!!
How will robbing Jokic benefit Kobe???
@@brandone.5106 nah there really aren’t that many years they got robbed. LeBron for 2011 and Jordan for 1997 and that’s about it
@@joshuachang5210 07 lebron maybe 2014 but that sit
Don't be surprised when Jokic is the only 3-Time MVP not to have a championship
Don’t be surprised when Embiid is the only mvp who never been to the conference finals
LMFAOOOOOOOO
Giannis will win it this year . Right now he has the best case ...
Hate to burst your bubble but Giannis is 3rd right now in the race, and most likely won't win it. I'd like him to win it too, but I care more about that finals mvp
@@tigeryumyums9407 You definitely don't sound like you want that lol . But I have news flash for you , this race is so tight that there are no positions . When you pull out the definition of unanimous mvp , it says best player in the world on the team with the best record in the NBA . That is Gianniss case . The best case rn
@@nickc.4558 Giannis has been my favourite player since 15'. I'd love to see him win it. Unanimous MVP is irrelevant right now. There won't be a unanimous MVP this season. And yes Giannis is the best player in the world, but the MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the world. Hence why he hasn't won it the last 2 seasons, or why Lebron only has 4, MJ only has 5.
Voters use a wide and somewhat convoluted measuring stick to pick MVP. And right now it doesn't look like Giannis has the narrative that the voters are looking for on his side.
3x MVP for Jokic sounds more attractive to them, or even the Sympathy MVP for Embiid. Both are ahead of Giannis with these narratives.
@@tigeryumyums9407 Winning is the biggest narrative dude . Ima mark your comment . And comeback in 1 month to say i told you so
@@nickc.4558 Seems petty , but sure. I won't be upset. I'd actually be happy if he won. And winning historically has been the biggest narrative, however in the last 5 years, 2 players in the 6th seed won MVP. So it's a narrative that doesn't seem as important anymore.
Peace.
Overall the MVP Award is watered down in this era of the nba
You said all that just to go straight off stats. 😂 I thought you were going to say you can actually watch the games. Especially on defense, stats don’t tell you the whole story.
1. One good way to see who the MVP is is to answer the question:
2. "Which player given the award wouldn't make the majority upset?"
3. To me, Embiid is the best option to this question.
4. There are reasons to say that Giannis does not deserve it this year.
5. Jokic's defense problem is REAL.
6. Imagine now the possibility to give the award to Jason Tatum.
7. This is the reason not giving Booker a number one vote is not an issue.
8. As a Giannis should be the MVP guy, I think that Embiid deserves this year's MVP.
9. He has the stats, the winning and multiple key moments / highlights.
Bro, people don't vote for someone because they feel "sorry for them" and to make sure that they vote what everyone else is voting for. Democracy don't work that way.
someone getting Back to back to back MVP without even getting into the Finals is crazy. We know MVP is a singular prize and many people won without winning a ring but back to back TO BACK!?
playoff is bringing when jordan lebron and giannis on they whay to get the 3rd but not jokic, seems a bit odd
NBA has a lot of problems, seriously the game has lost its direction.
nah the zoom in on bill waltons skin killed me😂
Jayson Tatum should win mvp because he light skin
😂
Nigga u gay
That’s better than Jokic winning his 3rd. Giannis got robbed for the same conditions that should be applying to Jokic
DAMN STRAIGHT
you just love to see when LOW uploads fr
Bro why is the voting process for sports trophies better than how elections are conducted in most first-world countries.
It is a regular season MVP for that particular season. People keep bringing up past playoff performances and past regular season performances, when these should be irrelevant. Just look at the regular season in a vacuum. People keep judging based on the wrong scope of games.
I agree wholeheartedly. The only thing that should matter when it comes to mvp that regular season, not anything prior
But they didn’t do that for jordan, Kobe, bron and giannis tho.
@@TheJwalk1234 Thats tough, criticize the voters for that rather than giving it to other players out of sympathy.
@@TheJwalk1234 it was wrong then so you don't continue to do the same wrong now. If you believe Jordan, Kobe, Bron, and Giannis were wronged then but advocate for Jokic being wronged now then you really have no argument. It's a case of complaining about a past wrong yet justifying the same wrong thing occur for no other good or rational reason. If it was wrong then, and it was wrong then, it's wrong now and we shouldn't want voters continuing the same wrongs as though it will correct some past injustice because it won't.
I agree. It should be about how they did during the regular season and that's it
The problem with relying on analytics only to decide the mvp is that there is no point of having voters if that’s the only thing to look at. Analytics aren’t perfect also because according to analytics Jokic is an all time great defender but anybody who’s seen him play knows that’s not even possible
It's not about the 3rd mvp, Embid and Giannis play defense at a elite level. Joker doesn't...
You don’t have to be a good defender to win mvp that argument doesn’t count
@@blablablabla2572 you do when you play center the most important defensive position in basketball. You can hide a point guard, or shooting guard and a good center can make up for power forwards but if your center can't play defense your done
Soooooo a guy with a better record in a tougher division leading the league in scoring and is a elite defender at his position all the while being a top 3 defensive anchor and rim protector. Instead give it to a guy who is one of the worst defenders in the league, gives you 5 more assist but 10 less points is the way to go. I give up
I agree with LOW here. The only argument against Jokic is based on mistakes of the past
And you know the other side of the ball, defense where his two rivals are ELITE
Not really, we’re going off how they’re judged him the last 3 seasons. He’s about to win with 3 completely different narratives that the other candidates now have as well. Last season he was missing his two best players but hasn’t Giannis been missing his best players for a lot of this season? Plays both sides at an elite level and he has the best record in his conference? Why has the goalpost moved 3 different times for Jokic with the only consistency being some advanced stats that Giannis and Joel are also right up there with him? Last season who was on Embiids team b4 they traded for harden? Seth curry? Andre Drummond….? He had just as shit of a team as Jokic, so I don’t understand how he’s able to win with 3 completely different narratives. 😂
At the time of this comment embiid is averaging nearly 10 more points than Jokic at 33.4 which leads the league. Embiid is averaging more steals and blocks and effects the game defensively in ways that stats can’t track. Is leading his team to a better record at 46-22 vs the nuggets 46-23 and is in the tougher conference. 76ers are have the better record but they are the 3rd seed while the nuggets are the 1 seed.
its definitely not the only argument against jokic. a month ago yeah, probably, but since then embiid has gone on a tear and both the bucks and the sixers have a better record than the nuggets now, and both giannis/embiid are elite defenders while jokic is a mediocre one. there are three candidates that are worthy and jokic is not by any means head and shoulders above the other two at this point
Even Jokics peers don't respect Jokic he went second last in the all star draft how does that happen if you the MVP
Giannis should win the mvp this year but he won’t because of voter fatigue
but that‘s weird cause giannis ain‘t win in the last 2 years. but somehow they tired of him
It’s because Embiid is the mvp
@@sheepslayer649 embiid has not played nearly as many games as Giannis and hasn’t been as consistent. The Bucks have maintained the 1 seed despite the roster not being a full health cause Giannis has been great all season long. Sure Embiid has been hot lately but he does that almost every year and does nothing in the postseason
@@patrickferguson8775First of Embiid played two more game than Giannis and second the bucks managed to keep winning even when Giannis was out for injuries
@@blablablabla2572 Embiid is on load management. Giannis had an injury.
Idc what you talking about MVPs don’t lose. Simple as that no 6 seed should be winning an MVP
Embiid or Giannis deserves it! Jokic only good for one side of the ball
Suggestion for you:
Please list the music tracks you used in prior videos. In particular what you used to be your intro and outro.
Translation: stats numbers and the analytics determine the MVP much more than people do. So the MVP has changed but it’s becuz the numbers.
🤮🤮🤮
legend of winshares strikes again. I think you should become a baseball fan
Uh... Yes? That's how it works... Do you think someone averaging 5 5 5 can win MVP?
I would have no problem with jokic getting the mvp this season if they gave it to embid last year. Annoys the shit outta me that jokic and russ both have mvps as lower seeds but kobe doesn't 🙄
Tbf the nuggets and 76ers were separated by 3 wins that’s it, also Jokic had like 6 more games played, only argument for Joel was he averaged 3 more points, definatly a close race and I can see why people wanted Joel, but the seeding is highly exaggerated.
@@PatrickJr1502 should have been curry bruh, not embiid
@@kesavenelayapallavan7414 never said it should have been Joel just said I get the argument, it still should have been Jokic
@@PatrickJr1502 Those little context details dont change the fact jokic stole an mvp that was rightfully and objectively most deserving to joel embiid.
@@madridforever933 I mean I’m not finna fight wit u over an opinion so believe whatever u want no one stopping u. Again like I said twice Joel had a good case but acting like it was blatantly obviously him that deserved it is ignorant to what truly was the case.
Regular season mvp is not big deal imo. It only matters to the players who win because the economics is in their favor. Incentive bonus, sponsorships, contract negotiations, etc…I’ve always held Finals MVP to a higher regard.
So in your eyes iguadala>westbrook?
@@daanishkhan9370 right lol
@@daanishkhan9370 Obviously not we can also look at the rest of their careers to judge them. They said FMVP weighs more than MVP, not than an entire career with many awards and high stat totals.
@@daanishkhan9370 sure. How chips Westbrook got?
@@daanishkhan9370Absolutely
For Jokic's sake I hope he doesn't win mvp...cuz if he doesn't make it far in the playoffs the slander would be crazy. Say what you will about the award being a regular szn award, but I have seen too many players not receive an MVP because of previous failed playoff pushes (i.e. Giannis) or because of voter fatigue (Lebron and Jordan). The fact the two objectively best players ever (along with other all-time greats) havent threepeated an MVP just puts even more pressure on Jokic if this happens.
joxic is a fraud after all im sure the media will give him another pass since the love theyre big fat white boys
Lebron and Jordan have never put up the seasons numbers Jokic has and no other center has either the guy is averaging a triple double for an entire season while shooting over 60% from the field don't compare him to them when clearly he's been better
@@Nicholas-hp1si jokic has been better than who?????
@@Nicholas-hp1si you are delusional you just said joxic is better then LeBron and Mj clearly you're biased and your opinion doesn't matter
@@Nicholas-hp1sismh
How is Low able to use all this NBA footage without getting copyright claims? Doesn't that stop you from monetizing your Channel?
So it's in bad faith calling out bs defense? what the actual fuck
If we in the new age of information and that’s why we should change the criteria for MVP then we should simply create another award to fully embrace this new age. Have MVP go to the best player who’s played 85% games on a top 3 seed and have another award like MIP (Most Impactful Player, although that might interfere with Most Improved Player so maybe another name). And give this new award to the players who’s had the most impact on their teams. The Russell Westbrooks and Jokics type seasons. Why change the criteria of a historic award bc “we in a new age” instead of creating a *new* award for the *new age*
And players should be able to win both if they could, that would make these award discussions at the end of the year better bc there would set criteria. Although I only said add a new award bc of LOWs argument that it’s a new age
Y'all losers want trophies for EVERYTHING!!
There's now a "clutch" Award... but no BLOWOUT Award????
A big part of it is the stat nerd section of the media that cannot admit that advanced analytics aren’t a perfect and infallible way to evaluate a player. They will vote for Jokic until the end of time no matter how little playoff success he has.
3:31 Grange, Michael got Rudy Gobert at 3rd. Remove his vote.
Naw low please explain the take when you tried to explain the black man's struggle to chris Paul career
Big 300k subs for our favorite 300 lbs man
😭😭
Here's the issues I have with the MVP race:
1. There's no clear cut definition of what the MVP looks like, and players get screwed because of the year to year change. One year it's the best player on the best team, others its a sympathy award for players that carry bad teams to wins. Personally, I would like it if they broke up the award of MVP into two awards kind of like how the NFL has an MVP and a OPOY award. The MVP is the best player on the best team, dubbed the Michael Jordan Award. I think it would be cool if the "Player of the Year" award, dubbed the Lebron James award, was the player that had the biggest impact on their team's record. So for instance, Jokic's 1st MVP would've instead gone to Giannis, and Jokic would've won player of the year that year. This way there isn't a script flip and one player gets screwed out of hardware because the narrative wasn't in their favor that year.
2. Voter fatigue is such a poor narrative or reason for why someone shouldn't win it. If Giannis deserved 3 straight MVPs, he should've gotten them. I think with my first point, it would be less likely that they get that and it would make it even more impressive if a player won both an MVP and a Player of the year in the same season. Like if you're having such a legendary season, you justifiably win both like 2013 Lebron, or 2016 Steph.
3. If Jokic wins this 3rd MVP, instead of giving the voters credit and saying hey voter fatigue is going away and players of Lebron or MJs caliber in the future could potentially get the right amount of MVPs they deserved, that should be a good thing. Despite the past several MVPs going to foreign born players, and several of the top votes from the last several MVP races going to almost exclusively foreign born players, the narrative becomes "well, Jokic is only winning them because he's white." Which completely disrespects that absolute insane level that he has played at the past few seasons and how he is quite literally revolutionizing the center position. Acting as though ESPN hasn't shown a clear bias against people who don't support their woke disney owned narrative (just look at Stephen A's comments on Luka Doncic before he got drafted but how amazing of a prospect Deandre Ayton was just because he was good in COLLEGE...or how they've handled EVERYTHING with Malika Andrews up to now).
All in all the MVP feels like it loses more and more of it's prestige every year.
Its a winner by decision, kind of like boxing. A panel decides who should win.
The thing is, every year is a different race.
It sucks because theres not a consistent criteria..
It should be the value brought by the players however it seems led by narrative these days when logic doesn't fit
I still don’t understand how Giannis didn’t win last year
Stats don't lie. So you have to look at stats. Jokic leads the NBA in LOOFTZORP, planck rating, Gant charting and z-axis clears per 100 shot clocks. He also has 13 game winning hockey assists while intentionally taking it easy in the first half of away games to reduce his fouls. These are clear MVP metrics. And Jokic is head and shoulders above the competition. It's not even close.
Boston fan? Check.
Jokic is their MVP? Check.
Pretty on brand at this point. Having Embiid at 3rd place right now is criminal lmao Boy, stick to ya MacDonalds burgers and leave the MVP discussion to actually valid basketball minds.
Stick to soccer and Europe and leave the discussion to valid basketball minds, "MadridForever"
@@Shockkings0714 "Stick to rigging rituals of sports" see how i just destroyed your little beta argument with one retort? Yeah idc what you have to say little weak one.
@@Shockkings0714 See how ironic is it for you to say this as you're literally defending TWO of the 3 MVP candidates who are from EUROPE? pathetic. But judging by your dna make up and your voice in your videos, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed. Hopefully you make your family proud and rebound after failing as a youtuber.
If D means so much then why are the Nuggets’ net rating swing of 24.7 when Jokić is on the floor vs. when he’s off the floor is easily the largest of these three candidates. Also there is a award for best defender any ways. Don't think Shaq, Kareem and big guys like them would look has good in today's game. They use to hang out under the hoop and rest . Now they have to go out to the 3 point line lol. One thing about Jokic very few play offs and the defense gets zero rest off when he is in the game ZERO. MVP all the way. So much fun to watch.
I personally think Giannis should get it, but I wouldn't be anger if Jokic won it
Embiid is needed way more to games than Giannis for their teams
The MVP award doesn't make any sense. It's an individual accomplishment that depends on team performance. If your teammates aren't hitting shots or getting stops then that impacts your odds of receiving the award. Which means it's not something an individual can control.
Also, the MVP should be the best player in the league, because that's what the fans and other players treat it as. When players are being ranked, the MVP award becomes a determining factor for their placement, which isn't fair, because the recipient usually isn't the best player in the league at the time.
They should do away with the award altogether or actually create a coherent criteria.
People like to discredit Jokic a lot because hes not much of a traditional athlete (like a lot of european players). You might not like it, but if Jokic continues to play like that for another 6-7 years, hes gonna have a case for top 10-15 all time. Thats how fucking great at basketball he is.
fill you up with joy is crazy
Joker all for stats Embiid get busy play on both sides
11:37 if you are trying to cross the finish line here it is...fact over all others!
LoW also shifts between examining why previous ppl won mvp and who should win mvp. In the end though, LoW suggests that the mistakes of the past don’t matter anyway. If so, then each of us is free to use whatever metric we think is best. I think it is ok to consider who won previous years. Two is probably enough for Jokic even though this is prob his best season of the three.
Lol Embid is the mvp because hes the best player in the league and has been for 3 years. On both ends...raw and advance stats prove it. He has beat them up head to head too...
Question out of curiosity:
Who’s the best player you don’t see listed here (my gut instinct is possibly Paul Pierce, though MVP’s didn’t exist until the last year of George Mikan’s career).
This is every player who has ever finished top five in an MVP vote at least once:
ABA Players (24):
Connie Hawkins
Doug Moe
Mel Daniels
Larry Jones
Willie Somerset
Jimmy Jones
Rick Barry
Spencer Haywood
Roger Brown
Bob Verga
Zelmo Beaty
Charlie Scott
Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Julius Erving
George McGinnis
Ron Boone
Joe Caldwell
Willie Wise
Bobby Jones
Mack Calvin
James Silas
David Thompson
NBA Players (97):
Bob Pettit
Paul Arzin
Bob Cousy
Mel Hutchins
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
George Yardley
Bill Russell
Maurice Stokes
Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Nate Thurmond
Lenny Wilkens
Dave Bing
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Walt Frazier
John Havlicek
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
Bob McAdoo
Bob Lainer
Elvin Hayes
Bill Walton
Pete Maravich
George Gervin
David Thompson
Walter Davis
Moses Malone
Bob Dandridge
Larry Bird
Dennis Johnson
Dan Roundfield
Robert Parish
Gus Williams
Magic Johnson
Sidney Moncrief
Bernard King
Isiah Thomas
Terry Cummings
Dominique Wilkins
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Shaquille O’Neil
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Tim Hardaway
Glen Rice
Gary Payton
Tim Duncan
Alonzo Mourning
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant
Jermaine O’Neil
Peja Stojakovic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitski
LeBron James
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Tony Parker
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Joakim Noah
James Harden
Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard
Isaiah Thomas
Damian Lillard
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Paul George
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Joel Embid
Devin Booker
Giannis over Emiid is sick work
literally a day after this video Embiid became the favorite for MVP
Criteria aside, it’s simple. Who’s better, the most dominant scorer in the nba and defensive anchor of the 2 seed in the much better east. Or the okay scoring, point center who is a turnstile on defense.
This is Giannis's WORST year since 2018. Leading the league in usage 39%, while shooting a terrible % beyond 3 feet. 28%.
I would like your input on first team all nba. Just for context I am a 76ers fan but my question is how much sense does it make to you that even with Joel being a mvp runner up the last two seasons he’s voted a all nba 2nd team member? I know someone will mention the positions but as a fan of this sport we both know the league is practically position-less
Trying to diminish the importance of defense to the MVP discussion and likening it to the difference between between a player contributing via scoring or passing is ludicrous.
Steve Nash and Magic did not necessarily have to score as much because they had others to do the scoring, they could focus on passing and still be very valuable to their teams. In the case of defense, you can’t simply say a player doesn’t need to defend because there are other defensive players on the team, you’ve got five players, every single one of them has to contribute on the defensive end or they are a liability, it’s not optional. The better a player is defensively the more valuable they are on the floor, period. It’s why Isaiah Thomas is out of the league, it’s why Mac McClung hasn’t been given a chance by any team.
Even making this argument shows how many hoops you Jokic fans (or rather apologists ) will jump through to justify your man’s dubious MVP credentials.
jokic fails the eye test.
until he proves he can win it all, he shouldn't win an mvp again. if embiid wins mvp, same standards should be applied.
difference between them is embidd has actually had the worst luck compared to the two embidd has had two drafts bust on his team and a worse roleplayers then joxic
Giannis is the real mvp. He’s feared on both sides of the court and is the most dominant 2 way player today. Jokic is not worthy of a 3 peat.
ruclips.net/video/HwOcoqly-50/видео.html
It all depends on what you mean by "best player" some of yal have a awkward way of judging who was or is "the best" id love to hear who was "better" than all of those players you claim weren't the best but got the MVP
Holy crap. Did anyone else catch that? Embiid and Giannis on-court / off-court differentials are both around 7.9, while Jokic has an amazing difference of 24.8! Um, that is pretty compelling. They aren't going to give it to him, of course, because the league doesn't think he's good enough to get it 3 years in a row.
Perks Jocik take and Stephen As disrespect for the sport of hockey are just more reminders of why no one watches espn anymore
💯 Facts!!!
so youre saying we have to accept the MVP being a stats & scoring award
How about the MVP go to the best player on the worst team (by record). That should solve things: The most valuable player on the worst team. They need an award. That'll also stop narrative building by the media. Everyone will know clear as day who the best player on the worst team is.
No one sayin jokic is bad and his defense is why he doesn't win. Its bc he and embiid and giannis are so close and prolific in offense that the defensive impact is highlighted much more.
It's media "promoters" being toxic nitpickers. They're gonna hold on to anything they can find just to trash someone
ruclips.net/video/HwOcoqly-50/видео.html
I haven’t heard your voice in a long time man
It is stupid to announce regular season mvp during the playoffs
Giannis is the MVP and I'm tired of pretending he isn't because Jokic gets his advanced numbers juiced by never playing with bench players. Giannis is the best player, on the best team, playing the majority of the season without his second best player
Giannis has an army behind him. He's not playing with "bench" players. He's playing with all stars or near all stars(holiday,lopez), dpoy candidates (lopez, holidays), established veterans, established shooters and scorers (Ingles, Allen, connaughton, portis,crowder, carter), and many of these players are also great rebounders, like portis, one of the best rebounders in the league. Don't pretend you watch basketball
This is Giannis's WORST year since 2018. Leading the league in usage 39%, while shooting a terrible % beyond 3 feet. 28%.
Go to stats,.. not into voting system.. there's a lot of voters were biased. .. that's the sad truth..
Everyone has their own metric for MVP. I take the words "Most Valuable Player" pretty literally. How valuable is a player to their respective team? Like if you take Giannis off the Bucks, where would they be? I think they are title contenders with him, but without him, probably play-in tournament or out of the playoffs entirely.