Would be very interesting to see the relationship between unbalanced EGTs and unbalanced lambdas from the engine cylinders in this video. I am considering installing 4 x EGT probes to do balancing and had planned to 'believe' that my average lamba is correct across all cylinders once EGTs balanced. Don't expect perfection, but close enough I was hoping.
EGT is also effected by timing. If the spark timing or strength varies from hole to hole, the EGTs will also go wacky. In order to trust the EGT for fueling you also have to trust your ignition is balanced and not effecting EGT.
I had 3 clogged injector top hats on my evo. They would spray fine at low pulse width but clog more at high. My afr sensor said everything was fine since that one injector that was open was dumping the remainder of the fuel the other 3 could not. The only reason I caught it was because it was relatively low power (400-450whp) on pump gas and injector duty cycle was way to high.
🔥 Get a T-Shirt or Mug by leaving an Apple Podcast review, or even a question! www.hpa-tunedin.com/ If we read out your review at the end of a future episode, get in touch to grab your freebie. Easy 🧠- Taz 🧔🏻
hi. i hope i can receive a answer about this question. On Standalone comes a ambient temp channel input. does poeple use it? it must be use? what is it for? Why most factory vehicle works find in most any condition compare to when a standalone is edit to a vehicle it strongles when it come to temperture changes. i hope fora video or any quick reply about this befor i miss the replys or video. pls tag me in the reply.
In my experience,Intake air temp is important,because colder air need less fuel can be neglected if u using wideband sensor and target afr value (closed loop),safest way is using both or open loop because wideband sensor cain fail sometimes,every drop of 1 degree air temp need to trim 1.5-3% fuel,tuning in the hottest area available then adjust your fuel trimming,a factory honda ecu trim fuel about 3% for every drop of 1°C of air tempp
In motorcycle ecu program they read the tps & map first according to rpm fuel & ignition table,then trim fuel according to intake temp and engine temp->verifying with O2 sensor & verifying knock with knock sensor
Thinking about it logically I'm sure it would because of the angle of attack for the exhaust stream as Im willing to bet the exhaust stream would prefer a direct and straight path in and out of the sensor and something that would create turbulence would affect the quality of the sensor readings
Really informative info as usual. Simon help me out on your accent. As a Yank, I have a hard time understanding the origin of the short “i” vs “o” or “u” swaps. As in tips pronounced as tups, and many other similar swaps of “i” or “e” for o or u. Is that a Kiwi thing, Aussie thing, or local dialect?
Even running individual is not accurate enough, the response rate of a lambda sensor is too slow. With valve overlap getting a small amount of fresh air into exhaust, so have to run what appears to be a leaner mixture. I've found that if you plumb in a line into the combustion chamber with a high pressure check valve running to a separate lambda manifold you can more accurately measure lambda just for tuning and reference of what to run in the exhaust manifold. Also Bosch has released a new Pre Turbo sensor with a higher heat tolerance (ADV).
Do you subsquently adjust your target lambda now that you know they are all even? Potential to run a little leaner than you would without the individual cylinder trims?
Could you clarify about CAN based wideband vs serial port? I have serial on my Subaru (log to laptop via serial cable) but I can get an iWire wideband that will hook up to the OEM rear O2 plug. I always assumed the serial wasn't great because it was lagged, but didn't realize the readings could also be inaccurate...
I would love to know how close I am from tuning by eye. I would pull the plugs every 500 miles of street driving and add-subtract 1.5% each time. Probably way off at WOT.
I need some help please please. I have a tuned 2018 Hyundai 1.6T dual clutch 35,000 miles. I bought a Banks iDash gauge and noticed on full acceleration I was only getting 14.2-.14.9ish on idle through full throttle. Stuck in open loops comes to mind???? Bought 2 new OEM sensors to be safe. They are idiot proof, installed correct spot. AF has a large dish shield. Still the same and on coasting I get a 7.3 reading, the direct opposite I normally get a 28 to 29 on my old logs. The tuner said I would be stalling the engine at 7.3, so he thinks it is some form of false reading. I tested it with BT VeePeak Fusion/ iphone and it backs up the iDash readings. All this is the same reading with stage 2 and now down stage 1 as I want it to be safer as it is a daily driver. Any idea what could be giving me 7.3:1 on deceleration, where I was once at 29:1 ? It is a MAP sensored car. I don't know if I really need to check it with laptop/windows obdlink sx usb red adapter since 2 different platform agreed.
For a high hp turbo K24 Honda street car. Would 4ch egt, with single wideband be sufficient? Or is 4ch lambda, "that" much better? Or more critical in racing applications? I know "more is better", obv. But so is cost vs diminishing return.
It will be sufficient and is already more than what many are doing in regards to having EGT's as well. With more you can always have finer control, but absolutely that comes at a cost and only you can decide if it is worth it for you or your application or not. This isn't something that's going to have it all fall to pieces without though - Taz.
@@hpa101 Great. That was pretty much what I was gathering from the video info, and previous videos you've posted on ve tuning as well. Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate it very much.
how come it can be reporting unicorns and it doesnt matter all you need to see is a difference, but using egt's is less than ideal? i dont really understand why its not a good stratergy when having unicorns is good enough to get the job done
It's the difference you are looking at, not the specific AFR. That's the point he's trying to drive home there. You have a scale that reads 4kg off. To get an exact weight it's not ideal, but to calculate the difference between objects it will work perfectly. It could be kg, lbs or something else. The unit doesn't matter itself, you are looking at the difference between. EGT is affected by more than just AFR variations, that's not the sole reading EGT probes are focused on, it's temperature. You could have a situation where the AFR might be the same, but the EGT probe on cylinder 1 is reading higher due to another reason that is changing the temperature, so you make adjustments to your fuelling which are wrong and go down a rabbit hole. How dramatic and/or important these differences are to performance depend on the application, they're not going to matter to everyone. Not as succinct as Andre but hopefully that makes sense - Taz.
@@hpa101 it all makes sense except for their are other things that effect egt, I don't understand what else effects egt between cylinders on the same engine
The physical location of the temp probe in the flow of the exhaust gas would have to be at the same ideal location on every cylinder to be able to compare one to the next. I imagine An O2 sensor is more resilient to an ideal location in the gas flow. Temperatures will vary across a cross sectional area more than o2 level.
@@steventrott8714 but thats not what they are saying, they are saying that more than just o2 can effect the temp, a well designed egt system should locate all probes in the exact same relative location and angle anyway so thats somewhat nullified, im just interested from a purely phusical science point of veiw to know what the other things that effect the egt are other than air fuel ratio because i honestly cant think of anything that would effect it as significantly as air fuel and thus thats why its been the goto instument for decades now for keeping an eye on individual cyliners, and as far as i knew up to this video, i have never ever seen an o2 sensor put in the manifold between the head and turbo, due to the resiliance of the sensors, and his argument of sensors actually holding up over time in oem cars negates the fact that on a high power car your pushing a ton more heat out the exhaust and making things glow red hot on the regular, unlike the average grosery getter that has probably never had anything glow on it from heat in its life. thermo couples are made to live in that enviroment and yeah, im just interested to know what exactly the other factors are other than air fuel so i can actually learn something, instead of someone saying its like that because i told you so, or becuase it seems logical, because in physics a lot of things that seem logical are plane wrong when investigated properly, if their are other factors and they are not just saying it seems logical or feels right, then they should be able to say its because of x y and z
@@christhorneyFair enough! Ignition timing, probe depth, probe distance from the exhaust valve, type of probe, coolant flow around the combustion chamber etc 🤘
I have a s4 13b, I am about to have my turbo manifold made by my friend and I intended to have EGT's welded on this manifold. I'll be driving time attack and for this version of the Car I am running a Fueltech FT550. Would you recommend me to switch to 2 widebands instead of 1 wideband and 2 egt's? I have not yet looked into the fueltechs compatibility with this kind of tuning. Thanks, Love yalls videos!
Yes I have a rotorary as well and I figure best bet is double up on egt and wide bands and other associated sensors if you echo can support otherwise it’ll be highly dependent on turbo setup also bc I figure twin or sequential turbos will make the information a bit harder to understand
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Can the exhaust pressure sensor be used to detect a cracked or broken exhaust and send warning to the ECU / dash?
Would be very interesting to see the relationship between unbalanced EGTs and unbalanced lambdas from the engine cylinders in this video. I am considering installing 4 x EGT probes to do balancing and had planned to 'believe' that my average lamba is correct across all cylinders once EGTs balanced. Don't expect perfection, but close enough I was hoping.
EGT is also effected by timing. If the spark timing or strength varies from hole to hole, the EGTs will also go wacky. In order to trust the EGT for fueling you also have to trust your ignition is balanced and not effecting EGT.
@@notsofresh8563 good point. I'd start with no per cylinder ignition offsets
Incredible and informative as usual HPA. The more I watch the more I realise how quickly I learn. Thanks heaps for your update 😊 Aussie Fan 💪🇦🇺🤘
Top notch video!! Thank you
Glad you liked it!
Thank you Andre for the break down
I had 3 clogged injector top hats on my evo. They would spray fine at low pulse width but clog more at high. My afr sensor said everything was fine since that one injector that was open was dumping the remainder of the fuel the other 3 could not. The only reason I caught it was because it was relatively low power (400-450whp) on pump gas and injector duty cycle was way to high.
SHEEEEESH
@@Chris-vs2up Yep injector duty cycle saved my ass. From now on I’m having that displayed on my gauge.
Close call!
🔥 Get a T-Shirt or Mug by leaving an Apple Podcast review, or even a question! www.hpa-tunedin.com/
If we read out your review at the end of a future episode, get in touch to grab your freebie. Easy 🧠- Taz 🧔🏻
unicorns 😂 this is why I love this company and andre
Cheers mate! Andre does have a sense of humour that pokes through every now and again 😂 - Taz.
hi. i hope i can receive a answer about this question. On Standalone comes a ambient temp channel input. does poeple use it? it must be use? what is it for? Why most factory vehicle works find in most any condition compare to when a standalone is edit to a vehicle it strongles when it come to temperture changes. i hope fora video or any quick reply about this befor i miss the replys or video. pls tag me in the reply.
In my experience,Intake air temp is important,because colder air need less fuel can be neglected if u using wideband sensor and target afr value (closed loop),safest way is using both or open loop because wideband sensor cain fail sometimes,every drop of 1 degree air temp need to trim 1.5-3% fuel,tuning in the hottest area available then adjust your fuel trimming,a factory honda ecu trim fuel about 3% for every drop of 1°C of air tempp
In motorcycle ecu program they read the tps & map first according to rpm fuel & ignition table,then trim fuel according to intake temp and engine temp->verifying with O2 sensor & verifying knock with knock sensor
Does the angle of probe protruding in the exhaust have any bearing on accuracy and sensor life?…i was told bosch sensors perform best at 15* angle
Thinking about it logically I'm sure it would because of the angle of attack for the exhaust stream as Im willing to bet the exhaust stream would prefer a direct and straight path in and out of the sensor and something that would create turbulence would affect the quality of the sensor readings
The angle is mostly to help allow moisture to "drip" out of the sensor during temperature change, ie starting the car.
Really informative info as usual. Simon help me out on your accent. As a Yank, I have a hard time understanding the origin of the short “i” vs “o” or “u” swaps. As in tips pronounced as tups, and many other similar swaps of “i” or “e” for o or u. Is that a Kiwi thing, Aussie thing, or local dialect?
Even running individual is not accurate enough, the response rate of a lambda sensor is too slow. With valve overlap getting a small amount of fresh air into exhaust, so have to run what appears to be a leaner mixture. I've found that if you plumb in a line into the combustion chamber with a high pressure check valve running to a separate lambda manifold you can more accurately measure lambda just for tuning and reference of what to run in the exhaust manifold. Also Bosch has released a new Pre Turbo sensor with a higher heat tolerance (ADV).
How about have the same individual bungs in the intake runners-Maybe using temperature per runner instead of the whole intake? it’s extra data??
I was wondering about using alternator ouput as a signal for turning these individual wideband sensors on as an option to an oil pressure switch. 🤔
Could have been a bit more informative if you'd have shown a log with the cylinder-to-cylinder variations prior to correcting them :)
Can we use 8 4.9 sensors with a EMU Pro8?
Do you subsquently adjust your target lambda now that you know they are all even? Potential to run a little leaner than you would without the individual cylinder trims?
monster tuner
Could you clarify about CAN based wideband vs serial port? I have serial on my Subaru (log to laptop via serial cable) but I can get an iWire wideband that will hook up to the OEM rear O2 plug. I always assumed the serial wasn't great because it was lagged, but didn't realize the readings could also be inaccurate...
I would love to know how close I am from tuning by eye. I would pull the plugs every 500 miles of street driving and add-subtract 1.5% each time. Probably way off at WOT.
For WOT plug tuning you pretty much need to do a pull & shut it off very soon after to check the plugs
nice
I need some help please please. I have a tuned 2018 Hyundai 1.6T dual clutch 35,000 miles. I bought a Banks iDash gauge and noticed on full acceleration I was only getting 14.2-.14.9ish on idle through full throttle. Stuck in open loops comes to mind???? Bought 2 new OEM sensors to be safe. They are idiot proof, installed correct spot. AF has a large dish shield. Still the same and on coasting I get a 7.3 reading, the direct opposite I normally get a 28 to 29 on my old logs. The tuner said I would be stalling the engine at 7.3, so he thinks it is some form of false reading. I tested it with BT VeePeak Fusion/ iphone and it backs up the iDash readings. All this is the same reading with stage 2 and now down stage 1 as I want it to be safer as it is a daily driver. Any idea what could be giving me 7.3:1 on deceleration, where I was once at 29:1 ? It is a MAP sensored car. I don't know if I really need to check it with laptop/windows obdlink sx usb red adapter since 2 different platform agreed.
For a high hp turbo K24 Honda street car. Would 4ch egt, with single wideband be sufficient? Or is 4ch lambda, "that" much better? Or more critical in racing applications? I know "more is better", obv. But so is cost vs diminishing return.
It will be sufficient and is already more than what many are doing in regards to having EGT's as well.
With more you can always have finer control, but absolutely that comes at a cost and only you can decide if it is worth it for you or your application or not. This isn't something that's going to have it all fall to pieces without though - Taz.
@@hpa101 Great. That was pretty much what I was gathering from the video info, and previous videos you've posted on ve tuning as well. Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate it very much.
how come it can be reporting unicorns and it doesnt matter all you need to see is a difference, but using egt's is less than ideal? i dont really understand why its not a good stratergy when having unicorns is good enough to get the job done
It's the difference you are looking at, not the specific AFR. That's the point he's trying to drive home there.
You have a scale that reads 4kg off. To get an exact weight it's not ideal, but to calculate the difference between objects it will work perfectly. It could be kg, lbs or something else. The unit doesn't matter itself, you are looking at the difference between.
EGT is affected by more than just AFR variations, that's not the sole reading EGT probes are focused on, it's temperature. You could have a situation where the AFR might be the same, but the EGT probe on cylinder 1 is reading higher due to another reason that is changing the temperature, so you make adjustments to your fuelling which are wrong and go down a rabbit hole.
How dramatic and/or important these differences are to performance depend on the application, they're not going to matter to everyone.
Not as succinct as Andre but hopefully that makes sense - Taz.
@@hpa101 it all makes sense except for their are other things that effect egt, I don't understand what else effects egt between cylinders on the same engine
The physical location of the temp probe in the flow of the exhaust gas would have to be at the same ideal location on every cylinder to be able to compare one to the next. I imagine An O2 sensor is more resilient to an ideal location in the gas flow. Temperatures will vary across a cross sectional area more than o2 level.
@@steventrott8714 but thats not what they are saying, they are saying that more than just o2 can effect the temp, a well designed egt system should locate all probes in the exact same relative location and angle anyway so thats somewhat nullified, im just interested from a purely phusical science point of veiw to know what the other things that effect the egt are other than air fuel ratio because i honestly cant think of anything that would effect it as significantly as air fuel and thus thats why its been the goto instument for decades now for keeping an eye on individual cyliners, and as far as i knew up to this video, i have never ever seen an o2 sensor put in the manifold between the head and turbo, due to the resiliance of the sensors, and his argument of sensors actually holding up over time in oem cars negates the fact that on a high power car your pushing a ton more heat out the exhaust and making things glow red hot on the regular, unlike the average grosery getter that has probably never had anything glow on it from heat in its life. thermo couples are made to live in that enviroment and yeah, im just interested to know what exactly the other factors are other than air fuel so i can actually learn something, instead of someone saying its like that because i told you so, or becuase it seems logical, because in physics a lot of things that seem logical are plane wrong when investigated properly, if their are other factors and they are not just saying it seems logical or feels right, then they should be able to say its because of x y and z
@@christhorneyFair enough! Ignition timing, probe depth, probe distance from the exhaust valve, type of probe, coolant flow around the combustion chamber etc 🤘
I have a s4 13b, I am about to have my turbo manifold made by my friend and I intended to have EGT's welded on this manifold.
I'll be driving time attack and for this version of the Car I am running a Fueltech FT550.
Would you recommend me to switch to 2 widebands instead of 1 wideband and 2 egt's?
I have not yet looked into the fueltechs compatibility with this kind of tuning.
Thanks, Love yalls videos!
Yes I have a rotorary as well and I figure best bet is double up on egt and wide bands and other associated sensors if you echo can support otherwise it’ll be highly dependent on turbo setup also bc I figure twin or sequential turbos will make the information a bit harder to understand
It's all so complicated.
Like anything, once you know you know 😎 - Taz.