The reason AFR has a greater effect on an engine than demonstrated here is due to the interaction with ignition timing (fixed for your test) especially for engines that are spark limited (ie run into detonation or pre-ignition before they reach maximum BMEP) Had you run your test at an engine speed closer to peak cylinder filling (ie peak torque) chances are, if you had an ignition timing also optimised for max BMEP, the engine would have started to detonate at the lean AFR settings. So, by running richer, the extra evaporative cooling and additional heat absorption of the greater fuel mass, would reduce the temperature of the charge during the compression event, and allow you to run with an earlier ignition point, which results in a higher mass fraction burn at a smaller average chamber volume, and as a result greater energy transfer to the piston, as opposed to it just going out the exhaust (which is why EGTs fall with advanced ignition angle despite peak combustion gas temperature being higher (effectively you get a higher dynamic expansion ratio)
5 лет назад+7
Exactly, I proved what you said many times on a dyno.
I had exactly the same thought. For instance the old good turbocharged 4g63 makes the best power at lambda 0.75 whilst it knocks earlier with leaner AFR mixture... However, if you are using high octane fuel that allows you to run optimal ignition timing to get to MBT than a slightly leaner AFR can be used.
@@i_am_tinny_man_2267 15 is three times 5 though. 300% markup, or 33% payoff per minute, whichever way you want to look at it. If you thought you were buying gas at $2 a gallon, and then it rang up as $6 a gallon... or only gave you 1/3 of a gallon of gas... :P (I am kidding, before anyone gets too excited and loses sleep plotting their argument).
This video is an awesome find. I ran my ISF on a Dyno today and asked to show the AFR. The Lambda dipped to as low as 0.79 or so and I could see the dip in the horsepower curve in relation to the Lambda curve. My engine did make less power when below about 0.88. Will have to do some investigation as to why but thank you again for this video.
That's amazing I had no idea a NA engine would care that little. I like how you displayed torque only because it's what is really being measured for one, and is easier to see a difference all across the entire Rev range with torque rather than Power. The tune that I have for my car which is a NA V6 not dissimilar to the 350z engine has a target of .84 lambda at wot.
Maybe on the next demonstration you can demonstrate for the best lambda reading on methanol and see how wide of a tuning window there is with very little change in torque.
I'm impressed with how little difference such a wide variance in AF ratio made. As in virtually no difference! I would not have expected that. It would have been interesting to see a plot of EGT during each of those runs as well...
Explanation was 10/10 but I sometimes I had to rewind the video because I couldn't understand what you were talking about 😂. Apart from your accent the video deserves milion views 👌
Great demonstration. thing i take away from this basically is the AFR needs to be "correct" for the application. more lean or more rich within that spectrum makes little difference but outside of that either direction results in power loss etc.
In my experience A/F ratio is actually more important on light throttle where small variations can make a big difference to driveability. You have successfully busted the myth about A/F ratio being crucial for max power though, neatly demonstrating the BS you hear where the operator says he went up one jet size or increased the fuelling by 2% and suddenly found another ten horsepower. Have you ever tried this with a 2-valve engine? When I was involved in the business I generally found that it was necessary to run these very slightly richer, which I always put down to the less efficient combustion chamber; another effect of 2-valve combustion chambers being that exhaust valves were far harder to decoke due to the resultant much higher exhaust gas temperatures flowing over them (not because of the richer A/F ration which would have the opposite effect, but because of the less efficient combustion causing less of the heat to be turned into kinetic energy). Biggest danger to engines in my experience is not A/F ratio, but when the mapping guy has pointlessly pushed the ignition advance to the very limit and then the car gets a tank full of fuel that is very slightly lower octane than the test fuel. That didn't happen in the days of distributors simply because the timing was wobbling all over the place anyway and to think you could increase advance by half a degree meant you were laughably deluded. Am I giving away my age?
depends on its fuel type, spark ignition if you lean on it, it will make power but run the risk of detonation (localized above the speed of sound events across the piston crown)
Tha'ts not a good comparison.. If a car is factory turbo, you don't need to junk it with fuel... If you game a 2L turbo from a cobalt ss, tuners who know the engine well always target 12.5-12.8 afr on stock turbo and stock engine and will make 330+ hp.. 380tq.. Then with a bigger turbo they will target low 12's .. It's a dI engine so no need to run rich... Even port factory turbo I would target low 12's... Now if it's N/A and high comp factory and you toss a turbo on top, then I would start to tap into the 11's at higher rpm's to keep it cool.
@@PurpleHeartVR That's a no from me. The general concensus for a force induction vehicle is in the 11s and n/a mid to high 12s. Your 12.5-12.8 SPECIFICALLY on a cobalt is NOT a good comparison to anything. I own and tune a DI turbo car... also, there are a lot of direct injection cars out now and majority runs in the 11s with or added FI
@@Anthony-vr3um di's are much for efficient thats why they can be run leaner. It's not uncommon to see a modded, boosted di engine in the mid to high 12's on pump fuel and even e85.
Very well done tutorial. Excellent and relevant. I wonder if a lean burning 1.05 to 1.10 ratio, cooled with water injection (x6 individual port water injectors delivering water only) would yield any significant change in power or fuel efficiency? Thank you very much for sharing.
Multi-port fuel injection engines do a two stage process first stage is a 15.0:1 AFR second stage will add just enough fuel to give you a final AFR of 13.5:1 all the first stage does is to clean the intake valve or valves of carbon deposits through the intake port of the head then rest of fuel comes from the direct fuel injection part of the process.
Great video. I would love to take the course to learn how to tune but money is alway on a budget. These videos are much appreciated and love to see more.
Trying to learn as much as I can. Gotta build that desperately needs a tune. Fueling up top seems to be good about 12.5-11.5:1 afr But down low on rpm and load the afrs are way too lean. Between 19:1 down to 15: at around 3-5k rpms. And most shops w ont touch it because its such an odd build.
Lamda+ignition timing( with lots of resolution) + knock sensor with lots of resulution+ EGTs again with lots of resolution and good response time on a load based dyno... MAN I MISS TUNING CARS
whats ideal for boosted applications, can i target 0.8 lambda and call it safe as i dont rly have access to a proper dyno other than virtual dyno wich can be quite finicky
The short answer is No. But. EGTs are affected more by Ignition and Cam timing events, especially ignition advance. Not having enough ignition timing will definitely run up the EGTs. EGTs can be more useful when you are running on the ragged edge of detonation, especially under boosted conditions. At some critical point, conditions in the combustion chamber, especially Exhaust Valve Head Temps, are going to cause the engine to go into run-away detonation........ The engine starts Detonating, then the knock sensors start pulling ignition advance, which makes the EGTs go even higher, meaning that the exhaust valves are now glowing cherry red, and you might be headed towards having a bad day. This is specifically why you must be very careful with pulling Ignition Advance under Boost, this can start making things very hot, very fast. As a side note........ When running an engine with Water Injection, you may find that the Water Injection makes the EGTs GO UP !!! But don't worry, the temps inside the combustion chamber are actually LOWER than before !!! The Water Injection also actively suppresses Detonation, much more effectively than Extra Fuel, and, water cleans out Carbon, extra Fuel CAUSES extra carbon deposits, which can cause hot spots, which promote Detonation. And, you can run stupid quantities of Water before starting to see a power loss. ( Running 50% Water to Fuel, (by weight), (under full load), is not unheard of ). A 50-50 mix of Water and Alcohol is even better, (instead of straight Water). Unfortunately, this last part only reinforces the fact that EGTs are of limited usefulness, unless you're doing research on a Dyno under controlled conditions. Per-Cylinder EGT probes can point out air flow, or fuel flow, discrepancies between cylinders, but that's not something that you can easily analyze by glancing at a gauge cluster while driving. An EGT gauge "could" warn you before your Turbo melts into a puddle. .
@@dogmoo Yeah, Water Injection is great stuff, with some really interesting, and unexpected, side effects, all good. rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#waterbtn1 has some of the best info on Water Injection that I've found, you may want to check it out, they are very serious racers, with a great sense of humor. .
Fantastic job on this video! When needed I will be sure to share with customers for validation ...absolutely no reason to push afr’s as it makes little to no difference in power.
That's some great dyno soft ware he has there. I always try to give the engine the absolute bare minimum fuel and ignition advance that it requires for maximum out put. If you are mapping in each gear timming advance will be a greater value and fuel needs to be leaner in first gear than it does in say eighth gear. One reason is to stretch out fuel consumption as far as possible the other is, it allows the engine to respond much cleaner at lower rpm. One interesting aspect would be to use an multi gas analyser and look at the H.C. reading, it's very telling
Timing creates whats known as negative work in the chamber, if you advance the timing to far the combustion process starts to soon and actually pushes the piston backwards. So adding more timing to a optimized system can work if the octane of the fuel is high enough to work with it but it's getting into negative results, making the piston change directions before the connecting rod has gone over center. Adding and subtracting fuel causes the ignition pulse to change where it happens, leaner is shorter sharper and faster, richer is like we modern people slower and a bit wasteful and takes longer to get to the point then this sentence. *yes I went there* So your engine and it's chamber design plug layout/placement etc etc etc.. is the basics, adding to much timing screws up the system so only use as much as you need or destroyed bearing uppers and melted pistons can and will be in your future. If you paid attention to the video this had nothing to do with spark timing and was giving basics on how afr works with your engine, asking for spark advance kinda missed the point of this. But since you asked this is your answer, it depends how close the timing is, how much is irrelevant to tuning except as a number and a place on a table and if it makes more power or not, not enough and combustion happens to late after the rod rotates around center and to much makes it happen before the rod is over center both lose power ones inefficient and one breaks parts. The total amount kinda depends.
@@scootbmx01 Well if you want your piston to actually stop fully before top dead center sure make it 75 degrees and see what happens. Most modern engines need 15-25 degrees of timing , you for example might need a 350 degrees of timing and a long roasting time, some of us are better off stewed at low temps, and others are good with a quick sear on a hot cylinder head. But as for timing mines off and I need to reset my watch. That should teach you to rewind your betters...
i have a turbo car, my dyno run actually show the AFR start around 14.7:1 then full throttle to redline RPM, it starts to drop to around AFR 12.2:1. should i request a tune to have the AFR all the way flat when full throttle til redline?
The tail pipe O2 sensor might not be as accurate as oxygen can work its way back up the exhaust to the sensor (they are not that far away from the exit). That can't happen with it further up. Pre and post CAT is also a consideration. For general interest you can also have your sensors too facr the other way and have the readings skewed by exhaust back pressure. I'll link you to a members webinar lesson that touches on all these topic and more - Taz. www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/121-wideband-lambda-sensors-essential-knowledge/
HPA, This is such a great video. I am probably the only one that is interested but it would be great to see a similar test on how efficiency (power/lamba) changes at partial throttle. I really want to know how lean I can run when I have high vacuum.
How about very old diesels... I have an old one and all i can do is stiffen the waste gate spring... really dont feel that much boost but i dont know what else to do
If my bike is tuned at 4,000 feet ASL, and I go down to 2,000 feet ASL, I understand it is "leaning out." So, if my AFR at 4,000 is say, 13.3, how would going down 2,000 feet effect my fuel? Is there a method of calculation per 1,000 feet? Such as, "As elevation goes up, fuel is adjusted by X% for every 1,000 feet change in elevation." So, to refine my tune at 2,000 asl, would I ADD or REMOVE fuel, and what % per 1,000 feet? I hope this makes sense. Is fuel compensated per 100 feet or 1,000 feet?
Making it richer not only provides more fuel but also more cooling. Note though just as you can run too lean, you can also run too rich. There are points in the map where you would run richer and also leaner than 1.0 depending on load and RPM conditions (WOT is going to be very different to 0% throttle and low load for example) - Taz.
That is a feature our dyno allows, but you can also simulate it with left foot braking while road tuning. You also need a bit of common sense with that technique too ;) - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thanks for the explanation Taz. I'm curious now, what's the limitations of that dyno for that mode of operation? Can you do this same method with a car laying down 1,000+ hp?
Yes, but you don't steady state tune high into the rev range so it's not really an issue, but even if you did you'd more likely overheat or damage your engine before a quality dyno. If for any reason you were working your dyno a little too hard there are sensors that will shut it down forcing you to let it cool off for a bit to save from any damage. As for steady state tuning, you only do it to a certain point and then you start doing sweeping runs higher and higher into the rev range so you're not running that car at high load and high RPM constantly for long periods of time while tuning - Taz.
There is a spectrum somewhere in between approx. 13.0 -15.0 that can be very bad due to high cylinder temperatures and potential knocking. This becomes apparent at high engine load (lots of throttle). There is a diagram somewhere about EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp.) and Cyl. Temp. So for max power i'd go for 12 - 12.5 and for economy around 15.5. Some expert drag racers have lots oil cooling, air/water cooling and cooler spark plugs to mitigate the temp. problem and can get closer to the "danger zone" and get max power.
Yes! Another point is with richer lambda you'll be able to run it for extended time and get same results. With leaner lambda it'll get so hot you'll loose power after a short time racing.
Nice explanation. Interesting when many tuners target an AFR of 13.0 or about 0.88 lamda, they are actual not achieving peak power. Which is closer to 0.92 lamda or 13.5 AFR. I realize in their mind this is a safety factor as fuel and conditions do differ. This is merely an observation. Curious if this is consistent across all gasoline engines.
Yes sir! Your target depends on the engine, fuel and application, but just because your engine is in a motorcycle rather than a car doesn't change the fundamentals of how the Lambda scale works or is implemented when required - Taz.
in my experience no. if you are lean and your acceleration enrichment is lean the engine will die for half a second with relatively decent throttle changes.
hey so basically if i get hp tuners that comes with the adapter (sorry can’t remember the word lol) I can access the air/gas data? I bought performance injectors and coils, (comes with copy and paste data so i’m guessing in good to go after it’s pasted into the tuner? lmk guys
If they support your vehicle you can purchase credits and use their interface tool (adapter) and software, yes. It won't just work on any vehicle - Taz. www.hptuners.com.au/vehicles/ www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/reflash-tuning-solutions/
Hello, this is very interesting but I'm French and I don't understand the all video, can just tell me for you what is the best lambda value for each regime 2000, 2500, 3000 etc ...
Absolutely great !!! Woud you consider next time aquiring EGT as well ? Then we could know how low Lambda has to go to provide sufficient cooling to the combustion chamber and how it compromises output.
Best to miss rich. that ensures that you're oxidizing fuel, not parts!(specifically, the exhaust valves and seats) especially in high-performance race engines.
Hey Peter, no worries. The higher number is leaner, lower is richer and 1.0 is Stoich. Might still seem confusing, but the second lesson here will cover it in more detail for you I believe (and I think you will enjoy the series :) ) - www.hpacademy.com/free-tuning-lessons - Taz.
in old skool terms .95 to 1 is only 14 to 14.7 to one fuel air ratio, that pretty hard to target accurately with a carb/s, its not that wide a range when you don't have a computer the control it
Gee, you saved me countless sleepless nights!! I was getting mad, by not being able to tune my bike, after getting a 700 💶 street legal full exhaust! The damn thing fries the Powercomander solution... Now, I'll just focus on the pumping side of things! I'll buy you a truck of 🍻🍻, if i could..
This may be a dumb question but how come you measure torque at a continuous 2000 rpm to find out max torque with afr as a variant and with power you didn’t keep rpm constant but redlined it??
Around 2k is an area of higher load on most cars and torque typically comes in lower rpm than HP. It's a good way to way to get a AFR roughed in before you start hammering the car and having a boom situation.
At the beginning 0:37 of the video he mentioned power is much more a function of the amount of air then of the amount of fuel. A super-/turbocharged engine just has got more air. The principle remains the same. Other commenters have pointed out that running richer allows you to advance timing and will therefore produce more power. Did you ask for a specific engine? (Just curious)
I have a question about tuning.... How can you tune afr for 3000rpm at WOT? I would have to be in a part throttle map in order to sustain that rpm would I? At WOT I would not be able to stay at 3000rpm steady...
At a certain point you start doing sweeps into the high rev range will make more coarse adjustments (not cell by cell) to hit your target AFR. You just work higher and higher until you're doing full ramp runs :) - Taz.
That dyno has a brake that makes it so the engine and car cannot push past what you tell it too, he told the dyno not to let him push past the 3000rpm limit with X gear ratio, Y tyre size at 4th gear so the dyno knows what speed kph/mph to get him the 3000rpms
![Tuning an OEM/Factory ECU? This Is Your FIRST Step! | Stock ROM File [FREE LESSON]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JuGjphwmMpY/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tuning an OEM/Factory ECU? This Is Your FIRST Step! | Stock ROM File [FREE LESSON]](/img/tr.png)
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0.75 = 11.0 AFR
0.86 = 12.6 AFR
0.92 = 13.5 AFR
1.0 = 14.7 AFR
1.15 = 16.9 AFR
I pause the video and do the maths so you don't have to :D
Thank you
I'm not going to base my 800 hp k24 engine based on your YT comments section afr conversion.
@@DP-nr1hz for engines running gas these conversions are spot on.
What about engines running 10% ethanol?
Alot more entertaining then the dudes accent
This is, by far, the most impressive explanation (and demonstration!) of AFR tuning that I've ever seen. This channel is the cream of the crop.
Ohhh yeaaaa
I absolutley agree. Brilliant.
Agree 100%.
Haltech made similar video many years ago...
You should try their courses.
You can be rich your whole life but you can only be lean once
Hayden Thompson haha good 1 👍🏻
Dammit, you nailed it!
The exact opposite for a diesel engine though lol
Don't wash out your cylinder walls
Hahahaha that’s AWESOME!
The reason AFR has a greater effect on an engine than demonstrated here is due to the interaction with ignition timing (fixed for your test) especially for engines that are spark limited (ie run into detonation or pre-ignition before they reach maximum BMEP) Had you run your test at an engine speed closer to peak cylinder filling (ie peak torque) chances are, if you had an ignition timing also optimised for max BMEP, the engine would have started to detonate at the lean AFR settings. So, by running richer, the extra evaporative cooling and additional heat absorption of the greater fuel mass, would reduce the temperature of the charge during the compression event, and allow you to run with an earlier ignition point, which results in a higher mass fraction burn at a smaller average chamber volume, and as a result greater energy transfer to the piston, as opposed to it just going out the exhaust (which is why EGTs fall with advanced ignition angle despite peak combustion gas temperature being higher (effectively you get a higher dynamic expansion ratio)
Exactly, I proved what you said many times on a dyno.
Word to that!
You took the words right out of my mouth...lol...
This is secondary: You are using fuel and cooling effects to make up for lack of octane.
I had exactly the same thought. For instance the old good turbocharged 4g63 makes the best power at lambda 0.75 whilst it knocks earlier with leaner AFR mixture... However, if you are using high octane fuel that allows you to run optimal ignition timing to get to MBT than a slightly leaner AFR can be used.
Well I just got a $5000 education for 5 minutes of attention
And that's why HPA is the best.
LOL?
Back to school with you!
(that was 15 minutes)
;-)
@@kathrynck to be fair to Peter he did say "5 minutes of attention"
@@i_am_tinny_man_2267 15 is three times 5 though. 300% markup, or 33% payoff per minute, whichever way you want to look at it. If you thought you were buying gas at $2 a gallon, and then it rang up as $6 a gallon... or only gave you 1/3 of a gallon of gas... :P
(I am kidding, before anyone gets too excited and loses sleep plotting their argument).
You explain things so in detail very well done video
Thanks Matt!
if you could make the same 3 runs with temp. probes in the exhaust and show their data on the screen would be very helpful
This video is an awesome find.
I ran my ISF on a Dyno today and asked to show the AFR. The Lambda dipped to as low as 0.79 or so and I could see the dip in the horsepower curve in relation to the Lambda curve.
My engine did make less power when below about 0.88.
Will have to do some investigation as to why but thank you again for this video.
That's amazing I had no idea a NA engine would care that little. I like how you displayed torque only because it's what is really being measured for one, and is easier to see a difference all across the entire Rev range with torque rather than Power. The tune that I have for my car which is a NA V6 not dissimilar to the 350z engine has a target of .84 lambda at wot.
Maybe on the next demonstration you can demonstrate for the best lambda reading on methanol and see how wide of a tuning window there is with very little change in torque.
Best afr demonstration ever! A comsummate professional. Hats off.
I'm impressed with how little difference such a wide variance in AF ratio made. As in virtually no difference! I would not have expected that. It would have been interesting to see a plot of EGT during each of those runs as well...
Agreed!
It surely rund into another limiter. My car has like 15 HP difference 0.95 to 0.85
Such an important topic with massive impact on power and longevity of your expensive engine.
Next time also include EGT curious to see that too
Awesome to share your tune on this part of a ECU...mostly on Dyno!!!!Thanks bro!!
Explanation was 10/10 but I sometimes I had to rewind the video because I couldn't understand what you were talking about 😂. Apart from your accent the video deserves milion views 👌
Use the captions there Mateusz, it's what we do ourselves for tricky accents ;) Thanks for the compliment too, glad you enjoyed the video - Taz.
Why this channel still not 100k subs yet? Should be more than a mil already.
Great demonstration. thing i take away from this basically is the AFR needs to be "correct" for the application. more lean or more rich within that spectrum makes little difference but outside of that either direction results in power loss etc.
Damn Andre you're making 300+Nm at 2k!
Am going to wire in an aftermarket ECU soon and will 100% sub to the courses
In my experience A/F ratio is actually more important on light throttle where small variations can make a big difference to driveability. You have successfully busted the myth about A/F ratio being crucial for max power though, neatly demonstrating the BS you hear where the operator says he went up one jet size or increased the fuelling by 2% and suddenly found another ten horsepower.
Have you ever tried this with a 2-valve engine? When I was involved in the business I generally found that it was necessary to run these very slightly richer, which I always put down to the less efficient combustion chamber; another effect of 2-valve combustion chambers being that exhaust valves were far harder to decoke due to the resultant much higher exhaust gas temperatures flowing over them (not because of the richer A/F ration which would have the opposite effect, but because of the less efficient combustion causing less of the heat to be turned into kinetic energy).
Biggest danger to engines in my experience is not A/F ratio, but when the mapping guy has pointlessly pushed the ignition advance to the very limit and then the car gets a tank full of fuel that is very slightly lower octane than the test fuel. That didn't happen in the days of distributors simply because the timing was wobbling all over the place anyway and to think you could increase advance by half a degree meant you were laughably deluded.
Am I giving away my age?
depends on its fuel type, spark ignition if you lean on it, it will make power but run the risk of detonation (localized above the speed of sound events across the piston crown)
For boost I use 11.3-11.5 for n/a 12.5-12.8
Tha'ts not a good comparison.. If a car is factory turbo, you don't need to junk it with fuel... If you game a 2L turbo from a cobalt ss, tuners who know the engine well always target 12.5-12.8 afr on stock turbo and stock engine and will make 330+ hp.. 380tq.. Then with a bigger turbo they will target low 12's .. It's a dI engine so no need to run rich... Even port factory turbo I would target low 12's... Now if it's N/A and high comp factory and you toss a turbo on top, then I would start to tap into the 11's at higher rpm's to keep it cool.
@@PurpleHeartVR That's a no from me. The general concensus for a force induction vehicle is in the 11s and n/a mid to high 12s. Your 12.5-12.8 SPECIFICALLY on a cobalt is NOT a good comparison to anything. I own and tune a DI turbo car... also, there are a lot of direct injection cars out now and majority runs in the 11s with or added FI
@@Anthony-vr3um di's are much for efficient thats why they can be run leaner. It's not uncommon to see a modded, boosted di engine in the mid to high 12's on pump fuel and even e85.
Absolute madman is giving us a class from inside a racecar, too bad regular classes aren't like this
The most under subscribed channel on RUclips..
The data do not lie. Good stuff. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Very well done tutorial. Excellent and relevant. I wonder if a lean burning 1.05 to 1.10 ratio, cooled with water injection (x6 individual port water injectors delivering water only) would yield any significant change in power or fuel efficiency? Thank you very much for sharing.
There is a NACA paper detailing this from a long, long time ago. Look up Technical Report 189 from the mid 1920s.
It would be pretty cool to see the EGT and intake temps overlayed as well.
This channel is an amazing tool for beginners! Thank you!
Multi-port fuel injection engines do a two stage process first stage is a 15.0:1 AFR second stage will add just enough fuel to give you a final AFR of 13.5:1 all the first stage does is to clean the intake valve or valves of carbon deposits through the intake port of the head then rest of fuel comes from the direct fuel injection part of the process.
I really enjoyed this. Thank u for the tips.
Great dmonstration! Could you tell us which fuel quality was used to? Especiali was any Ethanol mixt in? Like at E10 gasoline❓
I love this type of video. I must say I though there would be more of a difference between the lambda's tested. Thank you for posting!!
I really appreciate your lessons and especially engine tuning contents.
Great video. I would love to take the course to learn how to tune but money is alway on a budget. These videos are much appreciated and love to see more.
Hi. I have a question. Rich afr can lead to knocking or not?
Trying to learn as much as I can. Gotta build that desperately needs a tune. Fueling up top seems to be good about 12.5-11.5:1 afr But down low on rpm and load the afrs are way too lean. Between 19:1 down to 15: at around 3-5k rpms. And most shops w ont touch it because its such an odd build.
Lamda+ignition timing( with lots of resolution) + knock sensor with lots of resulution+ EGTs again with lots of resolution and good response time on a load based dyno... MAN I MISS TUNING CARS
whats ideal for boosted applications, can i target 0.8 lambda and call it safe as i dont rly have access to a proper dyno other than virtual dyno wich can be quite finicky
the clean shaven vs bearded switch threw me there for a second :) great video.
I wish you would have also talked about the egt's as well.
That is a key part of the puzzle, no?
The short answer is No.
But.
EGTs are affected more by Ignition and Cam timing events,
especially ignition advance.
Not having enough ignition timing will definitely run up the EGTs.
EGTs can be more useful when you are running on the ragged edge of detonation,
especially under boosted conditions.
At some critical point, conditions in the combustion chamber,
especially Exhaust Valve Head Temps,
are going to cause the engine to go into run-away detonation........
The engine starts Detonating,
then the knock sensors start pulling ignition advance,
which makes the EGTs go even higher,
meaning that the exhaust valves are now glowing cherry red,
and you might be headed towards having a bad day.
This is specifically why you must be very careful with
pulling Ignition Advance under Boost,
this can start making things very hot, very fast.
As a side note........
When running an engine with Water Injection,
you may find that the Water Injection makes the EGTs GO UP !!!
But don't worry,
the temps inside the combustion chamber are actually LOWER than before !!!
The Water Injection also actively suppresses Detonation,
much more effectively than Extra Fuel,
and, water cleans out Carbon,
extra Fuel CAUSES extra carbon deposits,
which can cause hot spots, which promote Detonation.
And, you can run stupid quantities of Water before starting to see a power loss.
( Running 50% Water to Fuel, (by weight), (under full load), is not unheard of ).
A 50-50 mix of Water and Alcohol is even better, (instead of straight Water).
Unfortunately, this last part only reinforces the fact that EGTs are of limited usefulness,
unless you're doing research on a Dyno under controlled conditions.
Per-Cylinder EGT probes can point out air flow, or fuel flow, discrepancies between cylinders,
but that's not something that you can easily analyze by glancing at a gauge cluster while driving.
An EGT gauge "could" warn you before your Turbo melts into a puddle.
.
Random Someone buy the course and I’m sure they talk about everything.
@@dogmoo
Yeah,
Water Injection is great stuff, with some really interesting,
and unexpected, side effects,
all good.
rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#waterbtn1
has some of the best info on Water Injection that I've found,
you may want to check it out, they are very serious racers, with a great sense of humor.
.
Fantastic job on this video! When needed I will be sure to share with customers for validation ...absolutely no reason to push afr’s as it makes little to no difference in power.
That's some great dyno soft ware he has there. I always try to give the engine the absolute bare minimum fuel and ignition advance that it requires for maximum out put. If you are mapping in each gear timming advance will be a greater value and fuel needs to be leaner in first gear than it does in say eighth gear. One reason is to stretch out fuel consumption as far as possible the other is, it allows the engine to respond much cleaner at lower rpm. One interesting aspect would be to use an multi gas analyser and look at the H.C. reading, it's very telling
what would happen if you incteased timing by 2 degree when reducing lamda? from 0.9 to 0.85
Timing creates whats known as negative work in the chamber, if you advance the timing to far the combustion process starts to soon and actually pushes the piston backwards. So adding more timing to a optimized system can work if the octane of the fuel is high enough to work with it but it's getting into negative results, making the piston change directions before the connecting rod has gone over center.
Adding and subtracting fuel causes the ignition pulse to change where it happens, leaner is shorter sharper and faster, richer is like we modern people slower and a bit wasteful and takes longer to get to the point then this sentence. *yes I went there*
So your engine and it's chamber design plug layout/placement etc etc etc.. is the basics, adding to much timing screws up the system so only use as much as you need or destroyed bearing uppers and melted pistons can and will be in your future.
If you paid attention to the video this had nothing to do with spark timing and was giving basics on how afr works with your engine, asking for spark advance kinda missed the point of this.
But since you asked this is your answer, it depends how close the timing is, how much is irrelevant to tuning except as a number and a place on a table and if it makes more power or not, not enough and combustion happens to late after the rod rotates around center and to much makes it happen before the rod is over center both lose power ones inefficient and one breaks parts. The total amount kinda depends.
@@Scootermagoo you mean you don't want the combustion happening as the piston is coming up? Haha
@@scootbmx01 Well if you want your piston to actually stop fully before top dead center sure make it 75 degrees and see what happens. Most modern engines need 15-25 degrees of timing , you for example might need a 350 degrees of timing and a long roasting time, some of us are better off stewed at low temps, and others are good with a quick sear on a hot cylinder head. But as for timing mines off and I need to reset my watch. That should teach you to rewind your betters...
@@Scootermagoo you missed the joke.
@@scootbmx01 So did you >;)
Shaved off ten years bro, had me confused at first.
Didnt kno it was him at first
He prerecorded the 2nd part 10 years ago
Lol me too😂
Been here since the start thanks for good info man 👍
i have a turbo car, my dyno run actually show the AFR start around 14.7:1 then full throttle to redline RPM, it starts to drop to around AFR 12.2:1.
should i request a tune to have the AFR all the way flat when full throttle til redline?
How about the EGT across the AFR range?
What is a safe afr at WOT?
How does O2 sensor in pipe and tail pipe sniffer differ in tune?
The tail pipe O2 sensor might not be as accurate as oxygen can work its way back up the exhaust to the sensor (they are not that far away from the exit).
That can't happen with it further up.
Pre and post CAT is also a consideration.
For general interest you can also have your sensors too facr the other way and have the readings skewed by exhaust back pressure. I'll link you to a members webinar lesson that touches on all these topic and more - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/121-wideband-lambda-sensors-essential-knowledge/
Excellent demonstration but I though max power was near 12.50 natural aspirated not stoichiometric of 1 lambda
HPA, This is such a great video. I am probably the only one that is interested but it would be great to see a similar test on how efficiency (power/lamba) changes at partial throttle. I really want to know how lean I can run when I have high vacuum.
Seconded!
How about very old diesels... I have an old one and all i can do is stiffen the waste gate spring... really dont feel that much boost but i dont know what else to do
awesome video. just a few questions: what does "eare" and "muicks" mean?
I'll never tell! But the captions will 😉 - Taz.
Great Video and info !! Does a turbo charged engine behave the same ??
If my bike is tuned at 4,000 feet ASL, and I go down to 2,000 feet ASL, I understand it is "leaning out." So, if my AFR at 4,000 is say, 13.3, how would going down 2,000 feet effect my fuel? Is there a method of calculation per 1,000 feet? Such as, "As elevation goes up, fuel is adjusted by X% for every 1,000 feet change in elevation."
So, to refine my tune at 2,000 asl, would I ADD or REMOVE fuel, and what % per 1,000 feet? I hope this makes sense. Is fuel compensated per 100 feet or 1,000 feet?
Can u tell why -100 kpa is open throttle? Like more underpresure in manifold means wider open throttle right?
Why would you set your Lambda target at .9 instead of 1.0. How does that change the performance or make it better?
Making it richer not only provides more fuel but also more cooling. Note though just as you can run too lean, you can also run too rich. There are points in the map where you would run richer and also leaner than 1.0 depending on load and RPM conditions (WOT is going to be very different to 0% throttle and low load for example) - Taz.
Amazing stuff man. The demonstration is amazingly easy to understand, though not quite intuitive.
How much does the graph change if you change the timing while changing AFR to take advantage of the rich conditions?
what is besr afr for diesel to tune? for power and safety??
thanks for the explanation and the video
Awesome work. Can you show holding the AFR constant and changing timing?
Hey there Gary! It might pop up in a free lesson at some stage, but just in case note that content is on tap 24/7 via our course material ;) - Taz.
How do you sit at a static engine rpm at WOT? I'm confused.
That is a feature our dyno allows, but you can also simulate it with left foot braking while road tuning. You also need a bit of common sense with that technique too ;) - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thanks for the explanation Taz. I'm curious now, what's the limitations of that dyno for that mode of operation? Can you do this same method with a car laying down 1,000+ hp?
Yes, but you don't steady state tune high into the rev range so it's not really an issue, but even if you did you'd more likely overheat or damage your engine before a quality dyno.
If for any reason you were working your dyno a little too hard there are sensors that will shut it down forcing you to let it cool off for a bit to save from any damage.
As for steady state tuning, you only do it to a certain point and then you start doing sweeping runs higher and higher into the rev range so you're not running that car at high load and high RPM constantly for long periods of time while tuning - Taz.
Andre your the boss.. got to lift my hat to you 😎.. excellent content mann..
Shouldn't timing be adjusted when afr is chsnged?
so. 0.95 is the best lambda for power? 13 afr?how lambda for the healthier engine balance power?
There is a spectrum somewhere in between approx. 13.0 -15.0 that can be very bad due to high cylinder temperatures and potential knocking. This becomes apparent at high engine load (lots of throttle). There is a diagram somewhere about EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp.) and Cyl. Temp. So for max power i'd go for 12 - 12.5 and for economy around 15.5. Some expert drag racers have lots oil cooling, air/water cooling and cooler spark plugs to mitigate the temp. problem and can get closer to the "danger zone" and get max power.
Would be nice to see EGTs on all the runs 😁
Yes! Another point is with richer lambda you'll be able to run it for extended time and get same results. With leaner lambda it'll get so hot you'll loose power after a short time racing.
Nice explanation. Interesting when many tuners target an AFR of 13.0 or about 0.88 lamda, they are actual not achieving peak power. Which is closer to 0.92 lamda or 13.5 AFR. I realize in their mind this is a safety factor as fuel and conditions do differ. This is merely an observation.
Curious if this is consistent across all gasoline engines.
Hi this was very good to see,
brilliant thanks, Dave
Hi does this Lambda value include motorcycles? 4 stroke engines.
Yes sir! Your target depends on the engine, fuel and application, but just because your engine is in a motorcycle rather than a car doesn't change the fundamentals of how the Lambda scale works or is implemented when required - Taz.
@@hpa101 love your videos :) learn so much new. Thank you brother.
@@hpa101 How far from exhaust port do you read the lambda value? and what effects does it have if its to far away on lambda reading?
Thanks for doing this. I'm finally getting into tuning
Is it true that a leaner ratio doesnt make more power but increases throttle response?
Never heard of this but I'd like to know the answer as well
that’s right. just grab the cheapest but not garbage carburettor motorcycle and become its master, up and down the highway with each change
No, the faster you get that air into the combustion chamber, the better throttle response... And well, other things.
in my experience no. if you are lean and your acceleration enrichment is lean the engine will die for half a second with relatively decent throttle changes.
Will the situation of turbocharge engine be the same as NA engine?
Does overlap effect the a/r value on the wide band sensor?
Me gusto el video. lo mejor es usar el AFR que te la misma grafica pero usando el menos combustible posible.
during idle better 14.7 or 1 lambda?
hey so basically if i get hp tuners that comes with the adapter (sorry can’t remember the word lol) I can access the air/gas data? I bought performance injectors and coils, (comes with copy and paste data so i’m guessing in good to go after it’s pasted into the tuner? lmk guys
If they support your vehicle you can purchase credits and use their interface tool (adapter) and software, yes. It won't just work on any vehicle - Taz.
www.hptuners.com.au/vehicles/
www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/reflash-tuning-solutions/
So on this example, where would you target?
Hello, this is very interesting but I'm French and I don't understand the all video, can just tell me for you what is the best lambda value for each regime 2000, 2500, 3000 etc ...
tWould be nice if you showed the EGT in all three cases!
Absolutely great !!! Woud you consider next time aquiring EGT as well ? Then we could know how low Lambda has to go to provide sufficient cooling to the combustion chamber and how it compromises output.
around .92 from the o2 sensor your lookin in the high 1500s+ guesstimating from what ive seen in my logs
Great information. Well Done
Best to miss rich. that ensures that you're oxidizing fuel, not parts!(specifically, the exhaust valves and seats) especially in high-performance race engines.
OK I'm just learning - take it easy on me. Is a higher number lambda richer or leaner? First time I've even heard of a Lambda.
Hey Peter, no worries. The higher number is leaner, lower is richer and 1.0 is Stoich. Might still seem confusing, but the second lesson here will cover it in more detail for you I believe (and I think you will enjoy the series :) ) - www.hpacademy.com/free-tuning-lessons - Taz.
perfect , amazing work.
Thank you! Cheers!
in old skool terms .95 to 1 is only 14 to 14.7 to one fuel air ratio, that pretty hard to target accurately with a carb/s, its not that wide a range when you don't have a computer the control it
What an awesome demonstration thanks
Thanks mate! Hope it helps you out 😎 - Taz.
Reading the EGT at the same time would have demonstrate this easily.
Also, sometimes you don't make more power but the oil get too hot very fast.
So, technically, I can do this on the street? I could change it from a basetune to a leaner tune trial and error based on 0-60 time?
or the 0-40 times
Gee, you saved me countless sleepless nights!!
I was getting mad, by not being able to tune my bike, after getting a 700 💶 street legal full exhaust! The damn thing fries the Powercomander solution...
Now, I'll just focus on the pumping side of things!
I'll buy you a truck of 🍻🍻, if i could..
So I've noticed that my rsx is around 14.3 at idle and under hard acceleration its around 13 something. I guess it's good to go?
Yup
Excellent demonstration.
Cheers mate, even I got caught up in this one =D - Taz.
I have read in a book from aprox. 1940-1950 thax max power is produced @ 0,86
That book is incorrect. This lesson shows why 😉
Hello.
Is it really for turbo engines, with boost of 2.5 bar?
As I know, 0.86 afr, moves to high EGT…
This may be a dumb question but how come you measure torque at a continuous 2000 rpm to find out max torque with afr as a variant and with power you didn’t keep rpm constant but redlined it??
Around 2k is an area of higher load on most cars and torque typically comes in lower rpm than HP. It's a good way to way to get a AFR roughed in before you start hammering the car and having a boom situation.
Very good test!!!
what about supercharged/turbocharged engine?
At the beginning 0:37 of the video he mentioned power is much more a function of the amount of air then of the amount of fuel. A super-/turbocharged engine just has got more air. The principle remains the same.
Other commenters have pointed out that running richer allows you to advance timing and will therefore produce more power.
Did you ask for a specific engine? (Just curious)
I have a question about tuning....
How can you tune afr for 3000rpm at WOT? I would have to be in a part throttle map in order to sustain that rpm would I?
At WOT I would not be able to stay at 3000rpm steady...
At a certain point you start doing sweeps into the high rev range will make more coarse adjustments (not cell by cell) to hit your target AFR. You just work higher and higher until you're doing full ramp runs :) - Taz.
That dyno has a brake that makes it so the engine and car cannot push past what you tell it too, he told the dyno not to let him push past the 3000rpm limit with X gear ratio, Y tyre size at 4th gear so the dyno knows what speed kph/mph to get him the 3000rpms
That's an amazing video! I am doing motorcycle tuning and found it very useful