USS Des Moines - Guide 251
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2021
- The Des Moines class, the last heavy cruisers of the United States Navy, are today's subject.
Read more about the ships here:
www.amazon.co.uk/U-S-Cruisers-Illustrated-Design-History/dp/1682477592
www.amazon.co.uk/US-Heavy-Cruisers-1943-75-Post-war/dp/178200632X
Naval photos and more - www.drachinifel.co.uk
Model ships of many periods - store.warlordgames.com?aff=21
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Next on the list:
Henri IV
USS Marblehead
Pinguin
German Auxiliary Cruiser Atlantis
Project 24 Sovetsky Soyuz class Battleship
HMS Caroline
Des Moines Heavy cruisers.
Ships of Battle of Campeche
PT Boats
Pinned post for Q&A :)
the Nav Weaps article on the rapid fire 8” guns is well worth reading: despite their size and power, they were, apparently, very reliable
How would you, Drach, tweak the design for the original 6 frigates of the USN? With hindsight, given the eventual razee designs, would it be worth it to slightly increase their size in order to accommodate 32lb guns? Also, having worked with live oak before, how on earth did anyone manage to use it as hull filler? That wood is incredible, but grows in about a million directions per tree...
The US Navy had plans for GERMANY FIRST strategy, but what if, somehow, the Japanese surrendered first (either between the end of 44 or beginning of 45). Did the allies had any plans for just occurence
Any chance of doing a special on the Royal Navy's Invergordon Mutiny?
Here's a very interesting question to be asked, for a "what if" episode. Assuming that the Mark 19 came out in enough time to be in general service during World War II, how would that change the battles? Especially since those 8" shells would be falling fast and hard in a number of circumstances where the early naval battles could have changed a lot of things if there was quite a few of these shells going out.
"Some Bureau of Ordinance employee, in a rare moment of usefulness"
Preach it, Brother Drach
Before he was given the same treatment as to what befalls an IJN officer that has an independent thought.
Respectfully.
I disagree.
See my comment (here) about BUORD.
I just visited the USS Salem in August, she's showing her age but is still an absolutely beautiful ship. She was a real treat to walk through, and was surprisingly thoroughly opened up to tour through. There were very few areas blocked off from the public. I highly recommend anyone who lives within a reasonable drive to Quincy MA go pay the old girl a visit.
Thanks, I was wondering if I would be able to see enough features, sounds like it's so
@@blueboats7530 The Constitution and Cassin Young are just 20 minutes north of there in the Boston harbor, and the Massachusetts herself is parked in Battleship Cove along with 3 other warships down in Fall River to the south. A nice little cluster for an enthusiast to hit up if you can stand to deal with the traffic.
Last time I visited the Salem, a few years ago, we went on the Massport water shuttle from Logan airport to Quincy, which was a nice ride on the water and gives a neat waterline view of the ship as you pull into the pier. And yeah, if I recall the deck planks were looking in rough shape but climbing around in the 8" turrets was utterly fascinating.
Anybody within driving range of Quincy MA probably has no time to spare after working overtime to pay crushing taxes and trying to avoid Democratic domination of their lives.
@@penultimateh766 We're 25th among states in tax burden, and as a MA resident I feel our taxes are reasonable for what we get. What are these "crushing taxes" that you speak of?
A.k.a. the point where the USN truly embraced the concept of More Dakka.
Nevah enuff dakka
I don’t want empty spaces. If there’s an empty space there can be a gun!
Give me all the dakka you have
A concept we should have stuck with
@@hattrick8684 _slaps on more 40mm Bofors_
Autoloading 8-inch gun cruiser. That sounds like just about every opposing admiral's worst nightmare 😁
In War Thunder when?
With the exception of a commander of an aircraft carrier, battleship or submarine
If I ever become ridiculously wealthy, instead of some impractical luxury yacht, I'm going to build a modernized Prinz Eugan. Autoloading 8 inch guns, modern FCS and radar, and CIWS guns in place of the older AA guns. The hull and superstructure are the obvious choice due to the fact they survived two direct nuclear blasts with only some minor damage.
Now you could take your vacation in the Mediterranean and sail to Dubai without fear of pirates. I can't imagine any pirate would try to take on 8x8in guns or much less numerous 20mm CIWS guns.....
@@CharChar2121 Only a matter of time, we recently got a post-war Baltimore; the USS Pittsburgh, somewhere below that line I hope would be the Des Moines
@@OtterTreySSArmy If you actually look at the descriptions of the ships at those nuclear weapon tests, you will discover that, while most of them would have been 'mission killed' from damage to sensors and weapon mounts, very few were in danger of sinking.
Last I heard, modern pirate attacks are a gang of thugs armed with AKs, riding in an inflatable boat. If they have sufficient warning, unarmed merchant ships effectively deal with them with a fire hose.
For all of those watching, please go visit the Salem, she desperately needs visitors and funding. The museum is really cool to walk though as the ship is left mostly as is with very little closed off to the public, but she needs money for repairs and maintenance.
I went there in August and it was a ghost town. Show this old girl some love.
I will try and get there this summer once the weather gets a bit warmer.
I served on board the Newport News during her last Vietnam deployment. (1972). She was the most powerful and best looking cruiser ever built. This month marks the 49th anniversary of the explosion in #2 turret that killed about 20 shipmates. The News stayed in commission for a few more years but the damaged turret was considered to be too expensive to repair and she ended her honorable service as razor blades.
We were told that she made a bit over 34 knots during the spring of 72. Something about North Vietnamese PT boats wanting to play with us. I have a Navy Surface Combat Ribbon as a result of that night.
Like many others I've always wondered how a Des Moines cruiser would have done in the knife fights around Guadalcanal. The big trick would have been to stay out of Long Lance range. Those quick firing 8" guns would have done in anything afloat including a Japanese battleship.
Thank you! And, I agree, she was a beauty!
The navy seemed to rely mostly on the Brooklyn/St. Louis and Cleveland classes for surface action in WW II due to their high rate of fire. I believe a heavy cruiser with the 8" superheavy shell and a light cruiser rate of fire would have been a game changer. If a Des Moines had been at Guadalcanal, the Japanese might have lost another Kongo class.
The 8" rapid fire would have allowed U.S. cruiser forces to engage at or beyond maximum torpedo range while maintaining smothering fire in the same way the light cruisers did but with more lethality. I suppose this may have been the thinking when the Des Moines class were conceived, but I am not sure of that. The class did seem to be idealized for dealing with large torpedo armed ships of the type the Japanese favored.
Just my opinion.
I play a computer game that has her as a playable ship (in her 1970s configuration, as well!), and I made (what I consider to be) a respectful, tasteful memorial to those men on the starboard side of #2 Turret, to help honor their sacrifice and service. Speaking of, thank you for your own, sir - Take care, and God Bless you!
When I was a kid living in New Orleans, I saw the Newport News as she was being broken up. Her gun barrels all cut off (not just removed) and superstructure being cut down, it was a very sad sight indeed.
I witnessed the scrapping also. I viewed her destruction from the canal side as I’d drive my tow back and forth.
@@living2ndchildhood347 my dad was the Marine Chemist who inspected and approved it for breaking. He took me out to see the progress but sadly wouldn’t take me aboard.
I was on the News from '69-71. She was a fine beautiful ship and deserved better.
"Some Bureau of Ordnance employee in a rare moment of usefulness" 😂😂 Nice mk14 torpedo reference Drach
The mk.14 debacle was by no means the only BuOrd fuckup, it's just the most frequently talked about. They were the navy's worst enemy in oh so many ways (worse than the congressional committees deciding on their funding, even). When the whole thing got shut down in the 60s there were probably parties in every single major naval base.
@@GaldirEonai Although it really is the most "successful" fuckup. Definitely deserve being the most frequently talked about. I wouldn't surprise if most of the retired submariners had parties in their houses too.
Nah, it was just that the BurOrd sucked in almost every instance 😂
Is that the same bureau that screwed over the M1 Garand, and the M14 and M16?
@@zeroqp Nope. Since money is limited. The army's project would get the bottom most priority if the board of the bureau are from navy and vise versa. The USMC didn't even have the Garand for a good portion of WW2 for example.
BTW what did they screwed up in the Garand? IIRC the 7th round stoppage was because a dude think he's the smartest person in the planet and changed the drawing without telling anybody.
I am slightly surprised that the use of USS Salem as a stand-in for the Admiral Graf Spee in "The Battle of the River Plate" (1956) didn't get a mention. Well worth a watch to those few who have not seen it.
How did they hide the extra turret up front?
Movie is otherwise excellent they would have bin better off by using models for the Graf Spee and Exeter instead. They should have also have used the footage of the Dheli for Alax and Achilles.
Mostly showed her aft aspect, as I recall. I remember wondering why *none* of the images of Graf Spee I'd seen had that very distinctive aircraft crane at the stern. Still, it was the best they could do at the time. Modeling was pretty basic, and CGI wasn't even a gleam in anyone's eye.
I recall the shell splashes were also distinctly uninspiring. Again, limits of the times...there's only so much you can do in a pool. I kept waiting for the massive, feathery fountains I saw on the boxes of ship models and in military history books (anyone else remember the awesome leather-bound Time Life series? I wore out my library card borrowing them). My much younger self kept wondering if the artists had let their imaginations run away with them.
@@peterkroger7112 Powell did use a model when he showed the Graf Spee under attack.
Love movie. Watch it at least once a year.
Ever time time I hear a class survived as a museum ship I exclaim “thank god”
It’s so great that American citizens respect these vessels
I just wish I had the $$ to go see her!! If I had a car then the chance of going would be feasible. But considering that I'm homeless & unemployed atm, I don't expect being able to go any time soon. Back in 2008 I was living in Pensacola, FL & working in Mobile, AL & got to see the USS Alabama otw to work & then otw home every day but cuz I was riding with the crew I never got to tour the great battleship. I'm very proud that lthe state of Alabama was able to keep her out of the scrap yard. However, the old girl looked awful lonely there in the bay. I think that a lot of schools should bring classes to tour some of these ships. When young & studying history sometimes it seems boring. But getting to see & go inside even one of these ships makes the history more real & interesting.
I still find it quite Ironic that the USN’s most powerful (and completed) Battleship class, along with their most powerful Heavy Cruiser class, are both named after my very much landlocked home state and capitol respectively.
And were both pointless and obsolete before entering service.
@@bkjeong4302 - Better than Kansas and Topeka. 😜
@@bkjeong4302 Hindsight is always 20/20. Too bad you didn't have a time machine to tell the world navies. /sarc
Real decisionmakers don't have the luxury of hindsight. Here is a more recent example of what happens when you get it wrong. Right after the introduction of the F8U Crusader, which was far and away the best air superiority fighter in world in 1957, the navy began competition for the generation fighter. The requirement was for aircraft to intercept long range bombers equiped with cruisemissiles coming over horizon. There were two competitors. A conventional air superiority fighter, the F8U-3 Crusader III and a multirole tactical fighter-interceptor, the F4H Phantom II. During the competitive process it was found that the U-3 absolutely dominated the F4H but was not as effective in the primary role of the unassisted interception mission. In addition. The Phantom could be used be used as a bomb truck. As we all know the Navy chose the Phantom. Guess what? The expected environment never happened and besides the AIM-7 turned out to be the Mk-14 of the Vietnam war. The airwar was just like Korea which was just like WWII. Oops, wrong airplane. Now suppose that the aircraft carrier turned out to suck at war at sea? People who actually have to make decisions where the future is unknown have to hedge against uncertainty. I can tell that you have never been part of this decisionmaking process.
And while we were here, Trent Hone quotes from Admiral Oldendorff's OP order for Surigao Strait. The Battleships were to open fire at medium range (20-25kyds) because the bombardment force was short on AP rounds. The West Virginia had a firing solution at 30kyds and by doctrine would have opened fire had she been loaded out for surface combat. You better get back in your time machine and tell the good Admiral that you approve of his decision.
Same lol Iowa all the way live in Des Moines currently
@@johnshepherd8687 The Iowas and the Des Moines entered service AFTER it was clear they were already doctrinally out of date, and the Des Moines didn’t even hit water until well after it was clear big guns were done and even 8” guns were on the way out. You cannot say “they didn’t know at that time” for these ones.
Re: Surigao Strait, yes WV had a firing solution at 30,000 yards with the Mark 8, but the reality was that even if you had the firing solution your chances of actually hitting at 30,000 yards would still be abysmal due to various external factors. Firing at a bit under 25,000 yards was the right call.
Thank you Drach for doing this guide on the USS Des Moines class, it is much appreciated from a sailor of the USS Newport News (CA-148) The last active all gun Heavy Cruiser. My time aboard was 1968-69-70 with 2 tours in Vietnam, call sign THUNDER flag hoist; November - India - Quebec - Quebec I sailed on others but all of us that crewed the Numb Nuts had a special love for the old girl. Members of the crew still get together for reunions and working parties aboard our sister the USS Salem. Again thanks.
@@ramal5708 That's right, but it was a little before my time, although some older guys would tell us about it. My cousin was on the USS Farragut, at the time also, he said that they got strafed by a mig, and the Navy kept it quiet so as not to start the war that everyone knew was close.
Yes we do. Our Salem shipmates have provided space for us to celebrate the U.S. Navy's finest CA's in the world. The grey Ghost, (N.N.) from the East Coast, served country and her crew well. She was 6" longer, and fully air conditioned unlike her two sisters. GTS RD3, 59 & 60
Salem was fully air-conditioned!
Not only was Newport News the only one of the class to fire her main battery in anger, she also finished her career with only 2 of her 3 main turrets operational. While firing on NVA positions in 1972 she suffered a major explosion in #2 turret, wrecking it thoroughly. A defective shell explosion in the bore totaled the center gun, killing 20 men and badly injuring about 3 dozen more as well as badly damaging the turret.
The center gun was removed and the gun port plated over. Proposals to replace the wrecked turret with one from either of her two sisters were rejected as too expensive, so the turret was deactivated and locked unrepaired in a fore and aft position, the ship finishing her career with 2 operational turrets versus 3.
When I saw her in the 'Mothball' basin in the Philly Naval Shipyard in 1986, Newport News was in very rough shape, the yard had opened her hull, starboard side midships at some point to salvage pumps or some other equipment for use in other ships and simply resealed the hull breach with a cofferdam. She had been "ridden hard and put up wet," battered and thoroughly worn out. The older Salem and "Daisy Mae" moored nearby actually appeared to be in better condition.
In 1993, I was interviewing for a job in Pennsylvania and, when coming into land in Philadelphia, flew directly over the 3 Des Moines class cruisers all moored alongside each other at the Philadelphia Navy Yard.
A couple of years later, the city of Quincy, MA was in the running in a competition to land the USS Lexington as a museum ship (Lady Lex was built at the Fore River Shipyard in Quincy), losing out to Corpus Christi, TX. As a concession, the Navy offered Quincy the USS Salem (also built at the Fore River Shipyard), where she is now moored and displayed as a museum ship.
Now living only about a mile from where the Salem is docked, I've had the fortune to have been aboard a few times, most recently attending a New England lobster bake on the fantail.
Do they have a Ryan-type to do media relations for her?
@@gregorywright4918 Battleship Cove has a RUclips channel and has collaborated on a series of videos on the Salem.
Arguably the most powerful heavy cruisers ever built.
And the last, everything becomes missile fest after that 😞
I mean at 73% larger standard displacement than the treaty limit displacement for heavy cruisers, is that really a surprise?
The only other ship of its weight class is the Admiral Hipper, and that was just a terribly designed ship.
Compared to everyone else's treaty limit cruisers though, it's not a fair contest. For instance, the French "battleship" Strasbourg with 13" guns and 11.1" of armour, displaces just 60% more than the Des Moines (both at standard displacement). So arguably, it's closer to the size of a 2nd class battleship to the class you're comparing it to... Heck the same is true for Renown & Repulse (as built) and they have 6" of armour but 15" guns.
That's just to illustrate how much of a difference 3/4 extra displacement makes, so they really shouldn't be compared to regular heavy cruisers.
And among the most pointless.
Any claim is "arguable" but in this case winning the argument depends on whether one counts the Alaska class cruisers in the category of "heavy cruisers" (as they were officially classified). At a displacement of 29,771 long tons (30,249 t) (standard), 34,253 long tons (34,803 t) (full load), the Alaskas might qualify as battlecruisers. Their 9 × 12-inch (305 mm)/50 caliber Mark 8 guns considerably out-ranged and out-hit any 8" gun. The two examples built (Alaska and Guam) got into service during the last year of WWII.
@@danielmocsny5066 One has to resort to some strange logic to see the Alaskas as heavy cruisers. They look like battlecruisers, weigh-in as battlecruisers, hit like battlecruisers, are armoured like battlecruisers and are intended for a battlecruiser role.
4:45 - when describing the switch from the as-planned 40mm Bofors to heavier 3"/50 caliber mounts, the underlying reason might rate a mention (although I imagine you covered this in previous videos). According to Wikipedia it was due to the Bofors' relative ineffectiveness against kamikaze attacks. The Bofors had been effective against conventional air attacks - where the attacking pilots planned to fly away in still-functioning airplanes. The mostly fragile Japanese aircraft were highly vulnerable to even single 40mm shell hits, readily incurring damage that could prevent a safe return to home base or carrier. But this became less true against kamikaze attacks in which merely setting an incoming aircraft on fire and killing the pilot was often insufficient to take it out of its terminal glide once committed. A more robust shell capable of removing a wing or blowing an airframe apart was neeed. The 3" gun was comparable to the main armament of a medium tank. As it also outranged the Bofors the heavy shells could start being lobbed at an incoming aircraft from farther out. An added bonus: the 3" shell could take the "VT" proximity fuse whereas a 40mm shell was too small for that.
Quite a bit more punch ya. Having a high velocity Sherman Tank shell explode near an aircraft was much better than a direct hit with a large grenade. Those things fired once every two seconds if you kept feeding the auto loader. A shell a second with a twin mount. I think the army had a land flak gun based off it as well.
The 3" was seen as an ideal weapon for VT fuzed AA because the lethal burst radius of the shell was close match to the activation range of the WWII era VT fuze. A 4.5" - 5.25" shell could kill a plane without having to pass as close to it, but what good is that if the fuze can't reliably trigger the shell at that greater distance from the target?
The larger shells would still be slightly likelier to take down an aircraft in a single hit, but not enough so to offset the 3" guns much higher rate of fire. Though, ironically, the British struggled mightily in their post-war cruiser designs studies to fit the 3" gun in place of 4.5" because it required much larger magazines. Despite the smaller shells it could fire so many more of them per minute that any given duration took more magazine volume and the RN didn't want to reduce its AA endurance.
I had the distinct privilege of having the Newport News firing over my destroyer on the gun-line in Vietnam. It was quite impressive. I am sure it impressed the targets, too.
I don't have a huge ount of fond memories of my time in the boy scouts, but me and my dad went on a sleepaway trip to the Salem. I stayed the night on the ship had dinner and breakfast in galley, and got to talk to veterans who sailed on her. It was a great experience. And if anyone ever wants to see her, she's in Quincy Massachusetts, only about an hour and a bit from battleship cove. you can easily see both the cove and the Salem ina weekend. Highly recommended.
I needed a couple of seconds to interpret "ount" as "amount".
You can actually buy a "Kilroy Pass" now to visit Battleship Cove and the Salem on the same ticket. Battleship Cove does a 2-day ticket, so you can go consecutive days. In all the times I've been there, I still have never had time to tour the Joseph P. Kennedy or the East German corvette Hiddensee - there's so much to see on Big Mamie and the Lionfish, not to menton the PT Boat shed.
My company performed the foreign materiel exploitation program effort on the HIDDENSEE. It was fascinating to see the inside of an enemy warship which I had seen only in reference books like Jane’s Fighting Ships and Weyer’s Warships of the World. I have been aboard the DD-850, LIONFISH, and the PT boats. The Big Mamie used to have a fiberglass Kingfisher atop a catapult. Battleship Cove is definitely worth the trip. Hope to see more historic ships.
"Rare moment of usefulness" . That's a genius phrase, right there.
Ah, yes, the MORE DAKKA autoloading Heavy Cruiser
Pure orkiness... Whys it not red!
@@scottrussell3862 Half of it is actually red.
@@theleva7 Does that make it go half as fast?
@@TheEDFLegacy Red ones smash humies betta and fasta!!! 😜
There were plans that the USS Des Moines would be a museum at Duluth, MN on Lake Superior. This never happen so we lost this grand ship that would be a beautiful museum today.
Was such a damn shame Des Monies got scrapped. Just a gorgeous class of heavy cruisers.
Ah yes, the Des Monies class! I've been waiting for this since I found your channel. Des Monies "Daisy" and Salem "Sally" are my favorite WWII-era cruisers thanks to the sci-fi book Yellow Eyes by John Ringo and Tom Kratman. 😁 I didn't know Salem was still around. I'll have to visit next time I'm in Mass.
They're actually post-war cruisers.
Agreed 1000%
Yes, it's a shame that the idea & implementation of an 8" autoloader wasn't thought of early enough to see WW2. A ship such as this would have been a nice surprise for the Tokyo Express coming down the slot at Guadal Canal. But I'm sure they made good use of them during Korea & Vietnam. I think it would have been really cool just to be on board & see the 8" autoloader in action.
I think there were other factors too. For one, the technology may not have been mature enough at the time to create an auto-loader for an 8" gun. There's also the matter of the Washington naval treaty limiting the weight of ships and from a brief perusal of wikipedia, the turrets of the Des Moines-class were significantly heavier than the non-autoloader turrets. Given this, the idea of heavier guns using an then-unproven method taking up weight that was already needed elsewhere... It was probably just decided that the costs outweighed the unguaranteed gains.
Extremely pretty vessels. The 8" rapid firing gun is something to see in action, there's an excellent original film floating around on RUclips.
Both the USS Salem and USS Newport News RUclips pages have the Navy film on the 8 inch and 3 inch weapons
As an Iowa resident, well done on the pronunciation. Many people in the surrounding states (and some within the state) butcher it.
How hard is it to pronounce "Iowa"?
@@tominiowa2513 Very difficult if you mistake the I for a lower-case L
I had the great privilege of getting a personal private tour of unrestored sections of the Salem in 2012. 5" magazine, 5" starboard turret, rear hanger, engine room, and the inside of turret #1. Also the "swimming pool" in the bow. 😸 I'm very glad the Salem survived as a museum ship. If only this class had been able to engage some Japanese steel a few years earlier... It would have been glorious.
I got a private tour back in 2009 as well, the restoration group seemed to appreciate tourists who knew what they were looking at.
That's amazing! I went to MA to see a bunch of museum ships and got to see the Salem. I was a bit disappointed that you couldn't go into the magazines nor the hangar, but I understand why
What is the "swimming pool"?
@@kamdenbarclay486 Bow 3" gun mount
Indeed, Commander Kor, truly a pity.
I mentioned this before, but the three rounds/minute/gun "by the book" firing rate of US heavy cruisers on entry to WWII, was increased by rather major "sailor-alt" (highly unofficial!) modifications to the turret loading machinery and procedures and using medical stretchers relined with heavy leather to move the 260- or 335-pound projectiles from their vertical storage slots around the outside of the barbettes in the hull to the hoists. This raised the rate of fire to five (5!) rounds per gun per minute. To keep the sometimes rather "stiff-necked" civilian shore support personnel from accusing the ships of sabotage, the changes were spread to all US heavy cruisers by sailor-to-sailor communicati9ons, heavily backed by the ships' officers of course, and as little as possible would be evident on any inspections, such as during overhauls. US Navy personnel were amazingly good at such things and, from personnel experience, still are; sometimes somebody without a degree who knows his stuff is worth 10 engineers who don't, PERIOD!!!
Mr Okun, if you are the same Nsthan Okun from Navweaps, we are in your debt.
@@josepetersen7112 How many Nathan Okun's can there be? Yes, I am the person who created all of that stuff in NAVWEAPS over 50+ years of work. While the homogeneous, ductile armor HCWCALC program is mostly based on Dr. Allen V. Hershey's work during and after WWII at the US Naval Proving Ground, Dahlgren, Virginia -- he gave me all of his personal files when he retired including all of his reports on armor over 15 years (basically, the entire US Navy database on armor impact testing and evaluations for WWII), I had to do all of the Class "A" face-hardened armor; flat-nose projectile homogeneous armor, and tapered-flat-nose homogeneous armor evaluations myself. Amazingly, NOBODY EVER did much real step-by-step evaluation and determination of the armor resistance properties of ANY KIND OF face-hardened armor by ANY COUNTRY. Considering how important face-hardened side armor was to big warships when various kinds (British steel-faced-iron Compound, German land-turret Grüson Chilled Case Iron, US Harvey nickel or Harveyized mild steel, and finally German Krupp Cemented in its many variations) were installed, this lack of understanding is kind of strange. Most of my 50-odd years work was figuring this our all by myself and doing it successfully, it seems. Much of engineering seems to be based on "rules-of-thumb", not laws of physics...
@@NathanOkun That is remarkable! You've made an exellent site on top of all that.
Theses were amazing ships. The Salem is a great museum to visit.
BTW, an awesome tidbit I learned when my son and I visited was that the 8 inch guns were nuclear capable. Imagine that as a shore bombardment capability!
Pretty sure that crosses the line from shore bombardment to terraforming.
Also, one of the most competitive cruisers in WOWS where the auto loading guns really live up to the reputation. Affectionally known as Des Memes.
One of the three, I think the Salem, was used to portray the KMS Graf Spee in The Battle of the River Platte, aka, pursuit of the Graf Spee.
You are correct.
My father served as a Gunnery Officer (rear Turret Commander) on the USS Newport News (CA-148) 1954-1957. Her forward 3in mount was not removed by the yard. It actually went overboard during a storm during which the second forward 3in mount was heavily damaged
When I was running 1:2400 WW2 ship battles in the wargames club at college, I tended not to use Baltimores in a cruiser-destroyer scenario because they were 800-pound gorillas that far outclassed any opponent. I can only imagine what a Des Moines would have done in that situation.
well tbh, Myokos, Takaos and Mogamis could easily match Baltimore's firepower and range and armor, exceeding them in speed and manouveribility and also... well Type 93 torpedos... lots of them. However stricktly in gunnery Baltimore had upper hand because of better radar and better FCS, probably better survivability too. Then, there's Hipper class, which was better armored. Baltimore as a design wasn't that much better than the counterparts. The circumstances they served made them so good, also quite obvious lack of comprehensive strategy of fleet usage, missheaps in planning on japanese side and general chaos in japan navy after 1943 added to that succes.
Don't get me wrong, it WAS a very good ship overall, but saying it far outclassed its counterparts is quite a stretch
@@jakubw.2779 We were using Seapower III rules which may have overrated the Baltimores slightly, and really didn't model torpedoes all that well, so you could be right.
Now imagine bringing in the Alaskas
I've always liked those gun cruisers, and will echo others' sentiments about her being a beautiful ship. Thanks for covering this class!
I visited Salem recently, and she is a beautiful ship. Anyone within a decent distance of Quincy MA should visit her.
mannys9130: I was living near Wollaston Beach in Quincy about 20 years ago and one Sunday afternoon I walked down to see the Salem. It was a quiet day and a former crew member showed me around. He was a gunnery crewman and when he told me about the rate of fire of the main armament I could hardly believe it. It certainly would have been a fierce contest between one of these ships and say, a Japanese Takao class ship.
Agreed. I like that she is largely staffed by old navy vets who sit on the deck and exchange stories all afternoon.
Fun fact, Newport News was the first ship to have full HVAC (including air conditioning) throughout the entire ship.
She also has the achievement of firing the longest range shells in combat (rocket assisted projectiles) that was the idea for the Zumwalts 155mm ammo that ended up being insanely expensive and thus useless compared to more accurate longer ranged missiles.
I thought I was an expert in a thing or two until I discovered your channel. Watching and learning from here in Indiana.
In the mid seventies I signed up for DOD bids for surplus/scrap. I would get the condition of the various ships and submarines as well as surplus trucks, jeeps whale boats, etc. . It was a delight for a 14 year old to receive solicitation for bids on such hardware. The shop condition was usually " hull is towable but this is only the opinion of the harbormaster and does not constitute a guarantee. The only bid I successfully made was for an RD 450 overhaul kit for a half track engine. My father was using the half track as a mount for out backhoe so we could get into muddy areas, but still be legal for road transport. Yes I did drive a half track over the roads of rural Minnesota. The half track was sold for scrap about 40 years ago.
Could anyone imagine the damage all 12 of those cruisers if built could do, especially if combined with the Iowa's? Especially if under the command of a admiral like Admiral Lee.
And especially in combination with some carriers well back of the battle line to disrupt the enemy's battle line with the need for evasive maneuvers to dodge aircraft bombs and torpedoes.
@@danielmocsny5066 someone might ask where the enemy fleet hurt by touching this doll after seeing that fleet especially if a number of destroyers and light cruisers are added to the mix.
@@danielmocsny5066
Combined surface-air actions are NOT a practical option. The amount of coordination needed to have the carriers and the surface force positioned in such a way both can attack at the same time is simply too much, not to mention friendly fire risks (carrier aircraft attacking friendly surface ships). Not even the IJN-infamous for overcomplicated plans that proved too hard to pull off in reality-thought this sort of thing was viable, and for good reason.
You’re better off skipping the surface ships entirely and engaging the enemy surface fleet with the carriers alone, so that the enemy can only defend against the airstrikes and not be able to counterattack.
@@bkjeong4302 everyone and their pet rock knows your opinion, now can you let us have our fun
If only the carrier took another decade to be developed...
I do love the the Salem, I’ve taken my son over there several times, you never appreciate how huge the ships are u til you are standing next to them. She is in rough shape now a days, but she is still down by the Fore River Bridge!
Holy shit Drach pronounced Des Moines correctly 😳
Iowa loves you drach!!
My 4 year old insists on seeing the model uss Iowa in the capitol at least once a week. 😂
My dad took us to NYC Fleet Week every April back in the 60's. (We lived in Westchester County.) If memory serves, Newport News was there twice. Very impressive ship. I've started digging into family photos for a b&w shot of CA-148
My father was an officer in the merchant marine for a while before becoming a harbour pilot. He spent some time shipping fuel in Asia and always told me a story of being anchored to pump fuel in Vietnam but being unable to sleep because a cruiser was anchored nearby conducting shore bombardment at night. He still vividly remembers the noise and the spectacle. I doubt is was the Newport News specifically, but I've always had a bit of a soft spot for 'Nam cruisers as a result.
The USS ST. Paul CA 73
may have been that curser firing harassment fire at night .
We would go up the Saigon river and fire from around 10 pm till around 3-4 am. It would be 1 round every 2-3 min. Yes it was a loud boom if you were near us when we would send out those 8” rounds.
I was. Boilermen in number 3 fire room. If they were using the aft turret it was very loud in our area. The concussion was rough as well even with one gun firing. We would need to step aside from the air vents blasting air to every watch station and sending a 1/2 bucket of rust with the air.
Turning anyone that didn’t step a side would turn red instantly covered in rust.
The 9 gun broad side was really bad.
It was very bad if you had to stand a 4 hour watch covered in rust in the boiler room that was at times 130-140 deg.
It would be a run to the showers after watch.
I was on the St. Paul from late 65 thru July of 68.
Three tours. Our ship did not have Air conditioning except in officers country sick bay and the oil shack used for lab work to test fuel and evap water for drinking and boiler feed water.
Any way our birthing compartments were very hot as well.
H. V. BT-3
USS St. Paul CA 73
In 1993 upon my completion of HT "A" School I was fortunate enough to conduct my first reenlistment onboard Ex-Des Moines. At the time she was in the inactive ships in Philadelphia, the
Ex-Salem was moored outboard of her. The bow of the Des Moines was the first thing you saw when passing through the main gate at Naval Station Philadelphia.
If I remember correctly, these ships were actually longer than a South Dakota class battleship 717 ft vs. 680.
Few of my friends are from Massachusetts and have said this is why they don't want to move her to Fall River with Battleship Massachusetts. She would show up the Battleship!
That and well she is stuck in the bottom....
There's really no room for another large ship at Battleship Cove, and most importantly no budget.
I’d love to see your take on the Franklin expedition, the Dreadnought Hoax, or the Crabb disappearance
The Dreadnought Hoax was featured in one of the drydocks.
Aye!!!!
Dreadnought Hoax: ruclips.net/video/ntJ-bywA3Bg/видео.html
I'm right here.
JK, couldn't help myself.
I saw the Des Moines in the shipyard at Philly some years back. She just sat there awaiting her fate, still looking proud.
I believe Salem was used in the film "Battle of the river plate" to stand in for the pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee.
As someone born and raised in America's heartland, I was waiting to see how Drach would pronounce Des Moines, but he got it spot on! Nice job!
This is perfect timing, I just visited the USS Salem last week, its really cool. You can go in engine room 3, and see the reduction gears and steam turbines (they have windows / cutouts).
I was sad I opened RUclips and didn’t see your new video, thought you may be skipping this week. Nope, I just woke up before you got to upload it. I really look forward to Saturday morning coffee with Drach.
Same here.
The Daisy Mae! Fans of author John Ringo will recognize the name.
The Daisy Mae will always live in the hearts of her crew, for she was always, and ever will be the southern girl with sparkle in her eyes and a heavy suthun accent!!!
At last! I've been waiting for this one Drac. I'm a monthly visitor to USS Salem, which as Ian mentioned, is largely open for touring. Found at the Quincy, Massachusetts location of the former Fore River Shipyard, builders of USS Salem, and countless other vessels.
Having served aboard Thunder, (CA148) I was told she was 6'' longer than her sisters as the home shipbuilders in the Newport Shipyards chose to honor the namesake ship.
USN: "How am I gonna stop some big mean mother hubbard from tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer: use a gun. And if that don't work? Use more gun."
My father served on the Des Moines for a number of years in the early 1950's. Spent a lot of time off the shore of Korea.
I could, and do, listen to you for hours. As always; very interesting material, very well researched, and a very "peaceful" cadence for someone covering mechanisms of warfare, good sir.
Cheers from the Midwestern American interior. Hope all is well on your end.
A darn good heavy cruiser class.
So....the equivalent of the A10 Warthog? "We built a gun, and then constructed the ships around it."
I live in, and was raised in Des Moines, Iowa. This hits home, pun intended, but great analysis as always.
What's up neighbor!
My grandpa served on the Des Moines during Korea. Spent the entire time showing the flag in the Mediterranean. Wish she could've been saved, but my dad and I are going to make it to her sister ship one of these days.
The American Fighting Vehicle Design Process:
1. Design new rapid fire large caliber gun.
2. Wrap machine around gun.
See: A-10
The Des Moines' bell is on display outside of the Iowa Gold Star Museum at Camp Dodge on the north end of the Des Moines metro area. It can still be rung, which my kids thoroughly enjoyed.
I finally let my kid ring the bell at the capitol today... thanks for the tip, we will for sure head over to camp dodge tomorrow! He'll love the plane out front!
@@travismiller5548 Awesome! There's a working periscope inside too, it's a big hit.
Not sure if in mentioned in other comments, but the ship's bell and stern nameplate (cut off the ship when she was scrapped) of the Des Moines are both viewable at the Iowa Gold Star Museum just outside of Des Moines!
6:20 My ship, the Newport News CA-148. It was the deadliest of that era's heavy cruisers, simply because of it's volume of fire. Sadly, during her 1972 Vietnam tour (after I was out of the navy) an accident in Turret 2 killed over 20 men when an 8" projectile exploded in the breach of the center barrel.
I remember how these three beautifully ships dominated the view at the entrance to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in the 1980s. They were rafted together in the mothball fleet. As a youngster I used to think they were battleships.
Those rapid fire 8" guns could have torn up just about anything they'd encounter and would have been a tremendous asset during the Solomons Campaign. I believe there's still a place for a similar design today as they'd fill a gap between the guided missile ships and the nearly useless littoral combat ships. If for no other reason, they'd be highly effective artillery platforms for amphibious ops.
At Komandorski, the range of engagement was 20 000 yards roughly. At such a range, the flight time of a shell fired from one of Des Moines' guns was measured to be almost 38 seconds.
The guns could cycle ten times a minute, meaning six seconds between salvos.
This means the ship would have six salvos in the air by the time the first salvo struck the target.
USS. Salem also played Graff Spee in the film Battle of the River Plate
The auto loading system when you visit Salem is one of the most incredible engineering achievements mankind has ever devised. I’d wager a lot of money no nation could re create that system today.
Newport News fired over our heads in I corps in 68. The volume of fire she could lay down was truly amazing.
Just a little bit of fun fact about the USS Salem. Ghost Hunters went on there and actually found Supernatural evidence. Also, that ship is the one combat ship that I know of that actually had a mother give birth to a child.
Heavy cruisers were awesome ships.
Excellent. My father served on the USS Des Moines.
Gotta love those rare moments of usefulness, as few and far apart as they may be!
Recognizable from appearance of other class member USS Salem in Battle of the River Plate (1956). Favourite quote: "Take that you beast."
Yes, Graf Spee "disguised as an American heavy cruiser" - from more than 5 years in the future and with a whole extra turret main battery turret. Must have borrowed one from HMS Cumberland, which shows up later with hers removed. Still, a beautifully photographed Powell and Pressburger movie that uses the actual ships (Achilles and Cumberland) or near contemporaries rather than obvious models for most of the sequences. Deutschland-class excepted, of course. Kinda hard to find post-World War II.
@@alanmcclenaghan7548 If I remember well (I saw the movie six months ago I think) the extra turret was supposed to be made of wood, a LOT of wood and more work if you asked me but if a light cruiser crew could make a fourth funnel for their ship maybe a big thicc ship (with also better access to supplies than the Emden) like her could have the capacity to make something that at long range would look like a third turret, not at short range, of course.
I think the HMS Cumberland still had the turret but not the guns.
And yes, Aquilles was played by Sheffield, diferent ship, but I can't complain since these could be considered the best camera shots we have of her.
There was a Deutschland-class available if the producers wanted more realism thought, the only have needed to dig a "little" in Kiel, since Admiral Scheer is buried there. The restoration... well they probably wouldn't have the money to restore her to say something. She is capsized among other things.
I just donated several lamps to USS Salem the other day, and i have lunch with the lady several times a week.
Hope you have a good visit to the Salem today!
One thing to add - USS Lexington salvaged a pair of her 5/38 twin turrets
Thank you for explaining the rapid-fire 8-inch Heavy Crusier of the US Navy.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
These are the same displacement as the HMS Dreadnaught, thicc cruisers.
Beautiful looking ships, IMO
What a beautiful boat
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Most interesting. I always look forward to your videos.
Thank you for the great work Sir
When my ship was in the yards in Philly in 1976 all three of these cruisers were tied up next to each other right by the front gate to the shipyard. A few years earlier I had volunteered for the Newport News but was sent elsewhere. I remember the Newport News had a gun explosion and one of there gun mounts was pointing up. Regardless, they were beautiful ships and Im glad the Salem was saved.
Nice looking ship.
The salem came home to Massachusetts she was built and launched at Quincy's fore river shipyard where she's docked mia yards from where she was built
I actually got a glimpse of Des Moines laid up at the Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility while driving thru Philadelphia in the early 2000's. I thought it was wild to see a WWII-style cruiser still around at that time.
I also visited the Salem on a rainy weekday morning. I was the only human on board and every corner of ship was open, from bilge to bridge. She’s deteriorating and doubt there is the interest or funds to maintain her. All the people who are aware she’s there in Quincy could probably fit in her wardroom.
Yes! And yes for the earlybirds! 😁
I've had a deep interest in this class since 1998. In one of the Navy's engineering schools at Great mist... Great Lakes there is a massive Bronze model of the USS Salem.
You are truly a man of knowledge when it comes to this type of history. Loving the channel and content. I haven't seen all your videos so have to look for the USS North Carolina
Very impressive ship.
Yea Salem....this is a ship type I want to see for sure!
The USS Salem played the KMS Graf Spee in the film Battle of the River Plate.
As an Iowan.... huh wait, there's a ship named Des Moines? I only knew about the Iowa.
Neat! have a couple of tangential connections to these ships, visited USS Salem a couple of times and know someone that served on the Newport News.