@Sparky Puddins its a joke based off the fact that the atlantas main armament was the same gun and turret as the "standard" US destroyer gun, the 5"/38cal gun in Mk38 DP mounts (as seen on Allen M. Summer, some Fletchers, and the Gearings)
@MadmanMortonYT tf2 ship versions Heavy as heavy cruiser Sniper as submarine Soldier as battleship Demoman as alien ship from movie battleship Engineer as repair ship Medic as medic ship Spy as spy boat Scout as scout boat Pyro as laser ship
Been saying for years now we should bring back battleships. Not your great grandfather's kind. No, these would have 20"+ smoothbore guns and use ramjet assisted fin guided GPS shells. Think about it: How many cruise missiles do we launch? A Lot. How much do they cost? A Lot. Much of that is the booster to get it up to speed where the engines can take over. A cannon accelerated it to supersonic speeds cheaply and a ramjet is much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient than a turbojet. The heavy steel projectiles would also be VERY hard to intercept. Ranges of several hundred miles would be easily obtainable with this combo. It would cost a lot less than sending a state of the art stealth fighter to drop a bomb on a bunch of ISIS rats...
Compare the cost of cruise missiles computing developing a new gun, building up the industry to build them, training people with them, and the cost of developing new systems and shells, then putting them on monitors, because let’s be real, battleships were designed to fight other battleships, and monitors were built for bombardment. Especially since a rail gun will be just as effective if not more, there’s already money put into building them. And they’ll probably be more effective
@@johnlavery3433 It'd be nothing compared to the man-hour costs to deliver one expensive smart bomb from an expensive maintenance intensive plane. Cruise missiles are going towards ramjet hypersonic technologies anyway. The expensive part is the booster needed to get it over Mach1 where the Ramjet can start to work. The gun does that and the shell takes over from there. Besides, the military loves wasting money on stupid projects.
@@wamyx8Nz > The expensive part is the booster needed to get it over Mach1 Completely wrong. The booster is just a solid motor. It may even completely lack any electronics, since it's not guiding the missile. It's not much more complex that the cordite charge that pushes the shell. But with shells, you ALSO need a gun (heavy), and a turret (very heavy).
Thank you so much for this video. This was the ship that my grandfather served on and survived during the Great war of World War II. Thank you for honoring all the men and women sacrifices by doing these videos it is greatly appreciated by me.
@Charles Yuditsky thank you for observing the nurses who are also lost in combat. As far as warship losses go, it was the men. I wasn't trying to be PC. Just making an observation. Also, have a blessed day, which I know is also not PC😁
what was your grandfathers name.. I can look him up on the roster on my web site.. www.usatlanta.com Do you know anything about his battle station or have pics of him.. We put up separate pages for those who served on her and would gladly do one for your grandfather..
My father benefited by the Sullivan Rule, as he was permanently stationed for the duration at Pensacola, Florida as an Aviation Machinist Mate and PBY crewmember. The Uncle I never got to meet, a 25 year old Shipfitter First Class aboard USS Donnell (DE-56) was declared MIA. On 3 May 1944 while conducting escort duty with Convoy CU-24, and approximately 450 miles southwest of Cape Clear Ireland, the Donnell was struck aft by a torpedo from German Submarine U 473.
@swaghauler not true, the surviving Ticonderoga class packs 122 potential duel purpose AA missiles in top of 8 harpoons and torpedoes. In addition, the flight 2-3 Arleigh Burkes not only carry fewer missiles but they dint even have a full asw/point defense suite.
@@mtumeumrani376 And they can only control those 122 missiles (actually more with 32 quad-packed Sparrows in an 8-missile cell) actively with the Aegis system. Those ships only carry TWO autonomous point defense systems and we only have 20 operational ships (with two ships undergoing "midlife" updates in drydock) with only half available to deploy at a given moment. This will BARELY cover our Carrier and Amphibious Groups. IF these ships are confronted by a Chinese or Iranian "swarm missile" attack, those two SEAWIZ or SEARAM systems would be hard-pressed to defend the ship itself, let alone the task force they are protecting. The laser-based system being tested now is too power-intensive to mount on Burkes or Ticos. The US needs to "upgun" those ships with additional SEARAM or SEAWIZ units since those systems are self-contained and have more reasonable power requirements.
Excellent video. Thanks for highlighting this fascinating class. As Curator at the Buffalo Naval Park, we are the proud caretakers of the Fletcher Class Destroyer, USS The Sullivans, DD-537. One correction, if you please. The Navy already had a family/sibling policy in place, but they bent it for the five Sullivan Brothers, because the brothers made national news when they went to enlist. Unfortunately, the bending of the rule caused the greatest sacrifice of any American family. Don't forget there were also the four Rogers Brothers (from Rhode Island, I think) on board Juneau as well. On 8 November, five days before sinking, the Navy asked the two sets of brothers one last time to be broken up. The Navy knew Juneau's orders would take them into a probable battle. Two of the four Rogers Brothers decided to disembark and were transferred, while we know the story of the Sullivan Boys. Three months after the Juneau sinking, in Feb '43, USS Putnam was changed to USS The Sullivans, and she went on to serve until 1965. Thanks again! Hope this information helps!
Yeah, the 5 Sullivan brothers getting killed on Juno was a very big deal. I remember my Mom talking about it as a child. And hearing my My Mom say anything about WW2 was very rare. Her father was a Marine in Europe but she said that he NEVER said even a word about the war. She did say that he had thick brown hair before he left but when he got back it was ALL completely white.
I knew that they named a ship after them. And that it's now a museum ship. But I didn't know that they made a movie about them. I'm guessing that it had a very sad ending! 5 brothers getting killed is pretty messed up! Very sad story. Must have torn their parents hearts out! It hurts my heart to think of the agony they must have felt. I'm sure they are passed away too by now. But the thought of any parent outliving their child just seems wrong.
Pound for pound this has got to be one of the most powerful ships ever made during that time. It's got guns everywhere. The u.s. navy was like you get a gun, you get a gun, you get a gun! Oprah Winfrey style hahaha
Sees an Atlanta in Wows *gets spotted* Ah shit, here we go again. Edit: For a few months now I've been watching this channel, and I like to say thank you for granting us all the opportunity to learn more about warships and naval terms :)
Thank you for reviewing this class. My grandfather was in the upper handling room of one of the side 5 inch mounts of the Atlanta when it was hit. He made it ashore and spend some time with the Marines before they were evacuated.
That's assuming you're not an idiot like me, who always gets blown clean in half the instant I so much as peek from behind an island, because every other ship on the map has a major range advantage of my Atlanta
Watched the USS Barney after refueling with USS Independence! A puff of smoke and 30 Knotts! A staff officer said the corvette of the navy! As new recruit and first time at sea will never forget that day!
Awesome video. And extra thanks for spending time mentioning the Sullivan brothers. Their name lives on in two US Navy Destroyers, DD 537 & DDG 68. Those 5/38 guns were an awesome weapon. As I recall, we could circumcise a gnat at up to seven miles with those things. But Gunner's Mates are not as truthful as Quartermasters, so the GM who told me that may've been exaggerating a skoshe. I have photos of the paint melted off the barrels of our 51 mount on the gun line in 1968.
DD-537 is a museum ship in Buffalo NY, along with cruiser USS Little Rock + sub USS Croaker, plus other interesting exhibits. Very much worth the visit. Sitting in fresh water, and away from corrosive salt air, they might end up being the last WW-II ships remaining afloat. The Sullivans is a good example of a Fletcher, beautiful ship. The #3 5" turret was removed sometime between 1954 + 1961, but otherwise pretty complete. The Wiki article on her war record is very lengthy. Did an overnight aboard Little Rock with my son in scouts, a memorable experience.
@@Slaktrax At the time, yes. Depends on use. If you needed a 5 inch, always. The 3 inch auto-loader that came along was pretty damned good. Imagine how the Japanese would have suffered against those things!
Well the USS Sullivan is in Buffalo. It is well worth the visit. I'm going to watch the Blackhawks hopefully beat the Sabres on the 21st, but I don't think the museum opens till later in the spring.
@@mtumeumrani376 it is crazy to think about, all of a sudden making those 5" DP guns exponentially better against aircraft. This had to be a major factor in the "great marianas turkey shoot", US already was top of the food chain with how many AA guns were on all their ships without proxy fuses.
@@unclechopchop1106 spectacular and magnificent book. Especially for that era and battles. There were a few later Solomon's naval battles he left out, but what he gets of the first and second naval battles of guadalcanal is beyond priceless. Neptune's Inferno is and should be a national treasure...
Keenan McBreen Actually the turkey shoot was mostly due to the IJN having run out of pilots during the Solomons campaign and the new American naval aircraft being vastly superior.
But sadly it got sunk at point blank from a friendly fleet at the Panama canal, who didn't recognize her. The ship went down, never fired back at the friendlies, and I think all hands were lost.
@@kinghosed4261 you're a fucking idiot. Look it up, before coming up with smart remarks. I didn't make it as a battle. But that is where and how the Atlanta went down. You've made up the name of a non existent battle, and put the Japanese there in an effort to what? Discredit me? I don't say either of those things... Reading comprehension is required to communicate with me. Stay out of adult conversations, juvenile...
Emily Hofland I think your autocorrect changed “Guadalcanal” to “Panama canal” because that is what it says in your first comment. The other guy doesn’t actually think there was a Battle of Panama Canal: he wrongly assumed you made that up, so he’s mocking you for supposedly thinking there was a naval battle in the Panama Canal. Note the sarcasm at the end. So nobody is actually wrong here about the battle itself.
@@polygondwanaland8390 that's quite an audible description of written word... Maybe you've projected some other experience on me.... I rarely go off the handle. And when I do, I'm the quiet type.
Thank you for this video. I've been waiting for this one. The Atlanta is one of the strangest and oddly hilarious designs in the US Navy. Its amazing it didn't shake itself apart at the seams when it was in action. It absolutely bristled with as many guns as could fit. I've even heard a story where the fire control officer could barely keep it under, well, control. Absolutely bonkers.
I have never been on the receiving end of an air attack. But I suspect that anyone who has, or anyone who saw what air power could do to lightly defended surface forces, would tell you that you can never have enough air defense weapons. Just a hunch.
Hello, my grandfather was a captain on the USS Ranger CV-4 I have tons of resources, and primary sources...literally his war journals. I would really like to hear your thoughts, either a 5 minute guide or if I’m lucky a special...
My money would be on Atlanta, both have roughly comparable armour, however Atlanta has more guns that fire faster. Unless Dido landed a serious hit such as to a magazine I think the fight would be pretty one sided and over pretty fast. Though neither was really designed for engaging comparable ships, they were primarily AA platforms
@@themadhammer3305 The only time Atlanta class cruisers saw any surface combat they didn't do so well. To be fair Juneau was hit by a torpedo after the battle.
@@justinhhp87 I did read once that when the Juneau blew up 1 of her 5 inch turrets flew over a mile and nearly smashed into the stern of the San Francisco from the power of the blast when the Juneau exploded.
@@Eric_Hutton.1980 To be *really* fair, we should keep in mind that the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal involved a USN cruiser TF intercepting an IJN battleship TF, going toe-to-toe with a superior force... at knife fighting range... in the dark. Unsurprisingly, that didn't go super well for the cruisers - but they did cripple one of the battleships, leading to its destruction by aircraft the next day.
USN: We need a light cruiser that can spit more lead than an aircraft can dodge. Any ideas? USN hired Ork Mek Boyz: U needz mor daka. BIG DAKA KRUUZAA!!!
@@suflanker45 ...and in the centre, where it should be, is the bulb I'm talking about - not huge but proportionally same as on other USN CAs, CVs and BBs of the time.
Q & A What do you think of big gunned submarines? With notable real ships like the M-class and Surcouf coming to mind, but also some of US Bureau of Construction and Repair designs that incorporated eight or more 8 inch guns. Although ridiculous sounding, would these have had any at all usefulness in war?
As anti shipping weapons, they work. Remember the rules of Commerce warfare were that you ID ships. Search cargoes. Let the crew take to the boats, and use the deck guns. Once you adapt unrestricted sub warfare, they can torpedo ships on sight.
All sides' subs commonly operated surfaced during night actions, for better speed and so they could bring their guns to bear as well. Submerging was seen as an escape option if things got too hot. I imagine the larger guns on those sub classes would do very very nasty things if they hit a typical ASW escort. Possibly even overkill. On the other hand, such large subs would be bigger (and much easier to see at night), and probably slower, so using them in the ind of close-quarters fighting that nighttime sub attacks usually became would be a major concern. But instead using those big guns to harass a convoy from longer ranges could be effective.
The whole impetus behind up-gunned submarines was the Washington Naval Treaty; they were seen as a workaround for heavy cruiser restrictions. In the real world, the Surcouf just didn't cut it. Very difficult for a relatively shallow-draft vessel to maintain a target in any sort of seaway. On top of that, the fire director was pretty much on top of nothing...subs are notably lowslung. That big twin 8" turret and wonderfully optimistic 600-round(!) magazine made the Surcouf slow to dive and unwieldy once she got there. It was an interesting concept, just not very practical.
Love that you told the story of the Sullivan Brothers. Not a too well known fact (maybe more so since it was mentioned in Saving Pvt Ryan), but pretty interesting. I spent a few days looking around USS The Sullivans and Little Rock while in Buffalo
It's important to note that Juneau, Spokane and Fresno were constructed with the middle superfiring turrets both fore and aft (turrets 2 and 4) lowered to the main deck allowing the highest superfiring turrets(three and four) to be lowered one deck giving the ships more stability from a lower center of gravity. The result was centerline turrets 1, 2, 5 & 6 on the main deck level with turret 3 superfiring over turret 2 forward and turret 4 superfiring over turret 5 aft. I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention or picture them here.
I'm way late on this but... The CL-119 Juneau, Spokane, and Fresno were the later 3 ships he only briefly mentions. The follow on class after the Oaklands. They commissioned after ww2. The original CL-52 Juneau was the same as the Atlanta.
I remember watching the documentary where Robert found Ballard USS Atlanta when it aired back in the 90s and what Admiral kurita pulled off was absolutely devastating people don't realize he got within torpedo range of these ships and the resolving attacks were absolutely devastating Ballard noted that they took a lot of shots right into the bridge of the Atlanta and the entire bridge crew must have been killed. thankfully the proliferation of radar eventually took away the distinct advantage that the Japanese had at night which was largely due to their really good night optics
Increasing the quality as well as quantity of radar was also big. The USN had radar in the Battle of the Savo Island but it didn't work well especially with the islands all around. The US also used it too sparingly (only every half hour) for fear of revealing its own positions. So the Japanese arrived undetected.
Juno was hit by a sub, not a surface action. Sadly USN leaders at this time were virtually ignorant of this class’s radar capabilities and the ships were not used as command ships. As a result the night actions at Guadalcanal were totally confused and the opportunities made available by their radar gun laying and enemy identification abilities were not realised and confusion reigned.
Actually, USS Juneau was damaged in the surface engagement, torpedoed by Amatsukaze and IIRC hit by gunfire as well. The I-26 torpedoed her the next day as she retired.
I like that at 1:24, just as you say "The Oakland subclass", you switch to a photo from Oakland, California (or possibly Alameda) looking towards San Francisco (and the western anchorage of the SF Bay Bridge).
Many/most IJN light cruisers were also designed to be destroyer squadron leaders. That may be a reason IJN admirals evacuated from their flagships sometimes went first to light cruisers, because of their command capabilities.
Thanks again for another history lesson in Navy's in WWII,. Would it be possible to follow up on HMAS Shropshire heavy cruiser of the Australian Navy. All I know is my grandfather served on her, He was at the times chief gunnery officer and one of the major battles was at the battle of leyte gulf right up to the end of the war in Tokyo Harbour / bay, also I have heard that it's razor was at 160 nautical miles and it's code name was porthole but further information would be great thank you.
Both my father and uncle were on the USS Atlanta as original crew and on her when she was sunk... While much is made of the fact that they should have not been in a surface fight, it's interesting to note how many more losses in the early part of the war were heavy cruisers..Essentially we fight what we brought. Atlanta was credited with dispatching a Japanese destroyer. Juneau would have not sunk had it not been for the second torpedo and Atlanta could have been salvaged were it not for San Francisco friendly fire incident. Destroyers ruled the night and if tactics were adjusted Atlanta's were suited for night engagement.. Check out my web site at www.ussatlanta.com and also check out a documentary on the USS Atlanta with interviews of survivors and awesome dive footage - the trailer is on my site .. Thank you for this excellent video..
6:00 "Atlanta was commissioned in December 1941, just a few *weeks* before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor." That's a pretty good trick, fitting "a few weeks" into a six-day period. 😂
1:45 what happened there??? Looks like a disbursment of bouyancy! Love the videos, I appreciate the care youve taken and the work you do on these great pieces. :)
My favourite ship in Navyfield... You could run it as AA or exploit the game mechanics to take on heavy cruisers with high angle shots that doubled your damage output.
USS Atlanta was sunk at Guadalcanal partly by friendly fire from USS San Francisco, which fueled a fierce NFL division rivalry between the Atlanta Falcons and the San Francisco 49ers which lasted for decades
The control station for the mount. Some mounts had them because there were 5" gun mounts right next to it and the blast could injure the crewmember manning the torpedoes.
The whole point of dual purpose guns was to reduce that problem. Other navies (ahem, Germany) had two different kinds of secondary armament, one for surface targets and one for aircraft.
Juneau was sunk by a submarine the day after the naval battle. Friendly ships left the survivors in the water because they had no ASW capability and were forced to keep moving. A failure in coordination afterwards delayed rescue efforts, with tragic consequences.
All those guns. I can almost ask, "Would you like a ship to go under all those weapons? Q&A: How would the original design have fared in the rougher seas of the Atlantic or even the Arctic? As the ships had stability problems I don't think they would have been successful there without losing some top weight.
The ships as built didn't have stability problems; that only cropped up during wartime service as AAA proliferated. If need be, they probably could have followed the example of many another ship and landed some of the less-needed or -used systems (the torpedo tubes come to mind) to reduce topweight.
whats the point? unless the germans were arming sea gulls with bombs,,, why send an AA cruiser to the Atlantic/arctic? they were overloaded/over armed to deal with japanese in the pacific. would not make sense to over arm a CA with AA in the Atlantic.
@@jeffreymcfadden9403 You're probably right. The Focke-Wulf 200 Condors were wreaking havoc in the early years of the war, but by the time Atlantas were available, that threat had already been dealt with by escort carriers.
Interesting reminder that it was the Juneau that the Sullivans served on. Might you do a short on their namesake DD-537, or was her career too mundane?
Other nations: "Our ships are unstable due to poor design. We should redesign them.' USN: Our ships are unstable due to too many guns and too much ammo. We should remove other weapons and add more guns."
Yeah the Atlanta getting shot up by San Francisco on one side & the IJN on the other side. Plus the Atlanta & Juneau is made more for anti-aircraft rather than anti-surface fire. And taking a long lance is even major for a battleship much less a small cruiser! Poor guys.
What were the three ships that came after the Oakland class, never heard of them and they don’t show up in a general google search for anti-aircraft cruisers.
The final class consisted of CL-119 *Juneau* (Yes, they repeated the name on an almost-identical ship), CL-120 *Spokane*, and CL-121 *Fresno*. They were built without depth charges or torpedo launchers and had a lightened superstructure allowing them to carry as many guns as the Oaklands with better stability.
Didn't the story of the Juneau go that it was struck by a torpedo, but damage control units were able to repair the damage, only to be struck in the same spot by a second torpedo?
Every family has that one cousin who's just inexplicably tall. In the family of US destroyers, this is that cousin.
So I am an Atlanta. Awesome!
@Sparky Puddins its a joke based off the fact that the atlantas main armament was the same gun and turret as the "standard" US destroyer gun, the 5"/38cal gun in Mk38 DP mounts (as seen on Allen M. Summer, some Fletchers, and the Gearings)
So them my entire family are atlanta class light cruisers, neat.
Sparky Puddins po
I guess I am an anti air cruiser now
"...And if that don't work, use more gun!" -Engineer, TF2
With all those 40mm Bofors we must have been the Swedes biggest customer.
@MadmanMortonYT tf2 ship versions
Heavy as heavy cruiser
Sniper as submarine
Soldier as battleship
Demoman as alien ship from movie battleship
Engineer as repair ship
Medic as medic ship
Spy as spy boat
Scout as scout boat
Pyro as laser ship
Johnnyc drums And Bofors was a subsidiary of Krupp.
The real life "USS 2nd Amendment".
Can we fit a gun there? Yes? Then why isn't there a gun there you idiot!
Been saying for years now we should bring back battleships. Not your great grandfather's kind. No, these would have 20"+ smoothbore guns and use ramjet assisted fin guided GPS shells. Think about it: How many cruise missiles do we launch? A Lot. How much do they cost? A Lot. Much of that is the booster to get it up to speed where the engines can take over. A cannon accelerated it to supersonic speeds cheaply and a ramjet is much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient than a turbojet. The heavy steel projectiles would also be VERY hard to intercept.
Ranges of several hundred miles would be easily obtainable with this combo. It would cost a lot less than sending a state of the art stealth fighter to drop a bomb on a bunch of ISIS rats...
Compare the cost of cruise missiles computing developing a new gun, building up the industry to build them, training people with them, and the cost of developing new systems and shells, then putting them on monitors, because let’s be real, battleships were designed to fight other battleships, and monitors were built for bombardment. Especially since a rail gun will be just as effective if not more, there’s already money put into building them. And they’ll probably be more effective
@@johnlavery3433 It'd be nothing compared to the man-hour costs to deliver one expensive smart bomb from an expensive maintenance intensive plane.
Cruise missiles are going towards ramjet hypersonic technologies anyway. The expensive part is the booster needed to get it over Mach1 where the Ramjet can start to work. The gun does that and the shell takes over from there.
Besides, the military loves wasting money on stupid projects.
@@wamyx8Nz > The expensive part is the booster needed to get it over Mach1
Completely wrong. The booster is just a solid motor. It may even completely lack any electronics, since it's not guiding the missile. It's not much more complex that the cordite charge that pushes the shell. But with shells, you ALSO need a gun (heavy), and a turret (very heavy).
Thank you so much for this video. This was the ship that my grandfather served on and survived during the Great war of World War II. Thank you for honoring all the men and women sacrifices by doing these videos it is greatly appreciated by me.
@Charles Yuditsky thank you for observing the nurses who are also lost in combat. As far as warship losses go, it was the men. I wasn't trying to be PC. Just making an observation. Also, have a blessed day, which I know is also not PC😁
what was your grandfathers name.. I can look him up on the roster on my web site.. www.usatlanta.com Do you know anything about his battle station or have pics of him.. We put up separate pages for those who served on her and would gladly do one for your grandfather..
Naval designers: How many guns would you like?
USN: Yes.
As many as you’ve got!
My father benefited by the Sullivan Rule, as he was permanently stationed for the duration at Pensacola, Florida as an Aviation Machinist Mate and PBY crewmember.
The Uncle I never got to meet, a 25 year old Shipfitter First Class aboard USS Donnell (DE-56) was declared MIA.
On 3 May 1944 while conducting escort duty with Convoy CU-24, and approximately 450 miles southwest of Cape Clear Ireland, the Donnell was struck aft by a torpedo from German Submarine U 473.
Standard American Doctrine: Use Moar Dakka. NEVER ENUFF DAKKA.
Gotta have that AA against pesky CV's.
If it works, don't fix it!
@@purplespeckledappleeater8738 We need to "relearn" this lesson. We should add more AA to modern US ships.
@swaghauler not true, the surviving Ticonderoga class packs 122 potential duel purpose AA missiles in top of 8 harpoons and torpedoes.
In addition, the flight 2-3 Arleigh Burkes not only carry fewer missiles but they dint even have a full asw/point defense suite.
@@mtumeumrani376 And they can only control those 122 missiles (actually more with 32 quad-packed Sparrows in an 8-missile cell) actively with the Aegis system. Those ships only carry TWO autonomous point defense systems and we only have 20 operational ships (with two ships undergoing "midlife" updates in drydock) with only half available to deploy at a given moment. This will BARELY cover our Carrier and Amphibious Groups.
IF these ships are confronted by a Chinese or Iranian "swarm missile" attack, those two SEAWIZ or SEARAM systems would be hard-pressed to defend the ship itself, let alone the task force they are protecting.
The laser-based system being tested now is too power-intensive to mount on Burkes or Ticos. The US needs to "upgun" those ships with additional SEARAM or SEAWIZ units since those systems are self-contained and have more reasonable power requirements.
Literally nobody:
US Navy: Can we fit more *guns* on it?
"Does it have guns on it ? Well put guns on top of the guns and then add more guns" ! 😁
Can we put some on the bottom too?
@@bellvnv2000 One of the pre-dreadnoughts literally did put guns on top of guns.
Boxghost102 Yup. I would love for Drachinifel to do a feature on these ridiculous things.
Yes
The Atlanta class is the textbook example for the phrase : Air raid this!
Excellent video. Thanks for highlighting this fascinating class. As Curator at the Buffalo Naval Park, we are the proud caretakers of the Fletcher Class Destroyer, USS The Sullivans, DD-537. One correction, if you please. The Navy already had a family/sibling policy in place, but they bent it for the five Sullivan Brothers, because the brothers made national news when they went to enlist. Unfortunately, the bending of the rule caused the greatest sacrifice of any American family. Don't forget there were also the four Rogers Brothers (from Rhode Island, I think) on board Juneau as well. On 8 November, five days before sinking, the Navy asked the two sets of brothers one last time to be broken up. The Navy knew Juneau's orders would take them into a probable battle. Two of the four Rogers Brothers decided to disembark and were transferred, while we know the story of the Sullivan Boys. Three months after the Juneau sinking, in Feb '43, USS Putnam was changed to USS The Sullivans, and she went on to serve until 1965. Thanks again! Hope this information helps!
The bomber will *FUCKING NOT* always get through. - USS Atlanta
Yeah, the 5 Sullivan brothers getting killed on Juno was a very big deal. I remember my Mom talking about it as a child. And hearing my My Mom say anything about WW2 was very rare. Her father was a Marine in Europe but she said that he NEVER said even a word about the war. She did say that he had thick brown hair before he left but when he got back it was ALL completely white.
They even made a movie about the Sullivans. Saw it on TCM once.
I knew that they named a ship after them. And that it's now a museum ship. But I didn't know that they made a movie about them. I'm guessing that it had a very sad ending! 5 brothers getting killed is pretty messed up! Very sad story. Must have torn their parents hearts out! It hurts my heart to think of the agony they must have felt. I'm sure they are passed away too by now. But the thought of any parent outliving their child just seems wrong.
6:29 I just love the camo with a fake bow painted onto the ship!
Pound for pound this has got to be one of the most powerful ships ever made during that time. It's got guns everywhere. The u.s. navy was like you get a gun, you get a gun, you get a gun! Oprah Winfrey style hahaha
Hell yea
These would have been very handy on the gun line off Vietnam, instead or the older WWII destroyers.
Sees an Atlanta in Wows
*gets spotted*
Ah shit, here we go again.
Edit: For a few months now I've been watching this channel, and I like to say thank you for granting us all the opportunity to learn more about warships and naval terms :)
Thank you for reviewing this class. My grandfather was in the upper handling room of one of the side 5 inch mounts of the Atlanta when it was hit. He made it ashore and spend some time with the Marines before they were evacuated.
Ha! “Human voice” made me like this video even before watching it! 👍🏻
Real Life: "didn't tend to fair so well in surface combat"
World of Warships: "Oh god, why is everything on fire??!!"
LOLOLANTAAAA!!!!
I got mine...love her
That's assuming you're not an idiot like me, who always gets blown clean in half the instant I so much as peek from behind an island, because every other ship on the map has a major range advantage of my Atlanta
weldonwin do you play World of Warships Blitz?
@@davidvasquez08 No, just regular WoWs on Steam
weldonwin ok
In "Seapower" cruiser actions I played in college, we used Atlantas as destroyer-eaters, a role in which they were quite effective.
Watched the USS Barney after refueling with USS Independence! A puff of smoke and 30 Knotts! A staff officer said the corvette of the navy! As new recruit and first time at sea will never forget that day!
Awesome video. And extra thanks for spending time mentioning the Sullivan brothers. Their name lives on in two US Navy Destroyers, DD 537 & DDG 68. Those 5/38 guns were an awesome weapon. As I recall, we could circumcise a gnat at up to seven miles with those things. But Gunner's Mates are not as truthful as Quartermasters, so the GM who told me that may've been exaggerating a skoshe. I have photos of the paint melted off the barrels of our 51 mount on the gun line in 1968.
DD-537 is a museum ship in Buffalo NY, along with cruiser USS Little Rock + sub USS Croaker, plus other interesting exhibits. Very much worth the visit. Sitting in fresh water, and away from corrosive salt air, they might end up being the last WW-II ships remaining afloat.
The Sullivans is a good example of a Fletcher, beautiful ship. The #3 5" turret was removed sometime between 1954 + 1961, but otherwise pretty complete. The Wiki article on her war record is very lengthy.
Did an overnight aboard Little Rock with my son in scouts, a memorable experience.
I think it's fair to say the 5"/38 was the best smaller calibre naval gun ever used by any navy.
@@Slaktrax
At the time, yes.
Depends on use. If you needed a 5 inch, always. The 3 inch auto-loader that came along was pretty damned good. Imagine how the Japanese would have suffered against those things!
Thanks for the post. FYI the Atlanta was equipped with the USN standard MK 14/15 quintuple torpedo mount.
I live not too far from Waterloo. Someday soon I hope to visit the Sulivan Brothers’ museum and see what they have.
Well the USS Sullivan is in Buffalo. It is well worth the visit. I'm going to watch the Blackhawks hopefully beat the Sabres on the 21st, but I don't think the museum opens till later in the spring.
I don't know if these ever received proximity shells before the end of the war, but I would think this would be damn near a no-fly zone with them.
@Keenan McBreen, according to Neptune's Inferno they did.
Mtume Umrani great book👍🏻
@@mtumeumrani376 it is crazy to think about, all of a sudden making those 5" DP guns exponentially better against aircraft. This had to be a major factor in the "great marianas turkey shoot", US already was top of the food chain with how many AA guns were on all their ships without proxy fuses.
@@unclechopchop1106 spectacular and magnificent book. Especially for that era and battles. There were a few later Solomon's naval battles he left out, but what he gets of the first and second naval battles of guadalcanal is beyond priceless.
Neptune's Inferno is and should be a national treasure...
Keenan McBreen
Actually the turkey shoot was mostly due to the IJN having run out of pilots during the Solomons campaign and the new American naval aircraft being vastly superior.
Another excellent presentation. I served on the USS Juneau (LPD-10). It was a great command.
The true American cruiser of WW2. Everybody on board got a station to fire some AA guns at Japanese planes. :P
But sadly it got sunk at point blank from a friendly fleet at the Panama canal, who didn't recognize her. The ship went down, never fired back at the friendlies, and I think all hands were lost.
@@emilyhofland8219 The Battle of Panama Canal? Hmm, never heard of that one. The Japanese Empire must have been a lot bigger than I thought.... /s/
@@kinghosed4261 you're a fucking idiot. Look it up, before coming up with smart remarks. I didn't make it as a battle. But that is where and how the Atlanta went down.
You've made up the name of a non existent battle, and put the Japanese there in an effort to what? Discredit me? I don't say either of those things...
Reading comprehension is required to communicate with me.
Stay out of adult conversations, juvenile...
Emily Hofland
I think your autocorrect changed “Guadalcanal” to “Panama canal” because that is what it says in your first comment.
The other guy doesn’t actually think there was a Battle of Panama Canal: he wrongly assumed you made that up, so he’s mocking you for supposedly thinking there was a naval battle in the Panama Canal. Note the sarcasm at the end.
So nobody is actually wrong here about the battle itself.
@@polygondwanaland8390 that's quite an audible description of written word... Maybe you've projected some other experience on me.... I rarely go off the handle. And when I do, I'm the quiet type.
Thank you for this video. I've been waiting for this one. The Atlanta is one of the strangest and oddly hilarious designs in the US Navy. Its amazing it didn't shake itself apart at the seams when it was in action. It absolutely bristled with as many guns as could fit. I've even heard a story where the fire control officer could barely keep it under, well, control. Absolutely bonkers.
In the words of The Mighty Jingles from a wows yt page ...how American....they have so many guns on it they can't shoot them all at once
She is also my favorite ship.
I have never been on the receiving end of an air attack. But I suspect that anyone who has, or anyone who saw what air power could do to lightly defended surface forces, would tell you that you can never have enough air defense weapons. Just a hunch.
Not enough of *Namba Wan* Sandiego
Hello, my grandfather was a captain on the USS Ranger CV-4 I have tons of resources, and primary sources...literally his war journals. I would really like to hear your thoughts, either a 5 minute guide or if I’m lucky a special...
A friend/shipmate of mine commanded USS THE SULLIVANS (DDG 68) about 10 years ago.
What else can we remove to make room for more twin 40mm? Do we need this kitchen sink? Oh and put some 20mm inbetween those 40mm's..
What if we placed a 20mm in the command deck?
What if we place quad 40mm Bofors at crow's nest? That would had 360 degrees fire angle and superior visibility!
@@grlt23 Replace the radar with 20mm for added height.
tow rafts and man them w quad 40s?
Brilliant! And we can also mount quads on torpedoes - they are mark 14 so they will return anyway after launch XD
US Navy: "WE NEED MORE DAKKA"
Engineers: "You still using those depth charge projectors?"
US Navy: "No?"
the light cruiser looks like super destroyer but different
hms dido vs uss atlanta
My money would be on Atlanta, both have roughly comparable armour, however Atlanta has more guns that fire faster. Unless Dido landed a serious hit such as to a magazine I think the fight would be pretty one sided and over pretty fast.
Though neither was really designed for engaging comparable ships, they were primarily AA platforms
@@themadhammer3305 The only time Atlanta class cruisers saw any surface combat they didn't do so well. To be fair Juneau was hit by a torpedo after the battle.
@@Eric_Hutton.1980 did atlanta get raked by SanFran and Hiei as well?
@@justinhhp87 I did read once that when the Juneau blew up 1 of her 5 inch turrets flew over a mile and nearly smashed into the stern of the San Francisco from the power of the blast when the Juneau exploded.
@@Eric_Hutton.1980 To be *really* fair, we should keep in mind that the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal involved a USN cruiser TF intercepting an IJN battleship TF, going toe-to-toe with a superior force... at knife fighting range... in the dark. Unsurprisingly, that didn't go super well for the cruisers - but they did cripple one of the battleships, leading to its destruction by aircraft the next day.
USN: We need a light cruiser that can spit more lead than an aircraft can dodge. Any ideas?
USN hired Ork Mek Boyz: U needz mor daka. BIG DAKA KRUUZAA!!!
Note the bulbous bow at 4:00 - smallest US ships to have those?
No. If you look closer there are two braces on the bow that guide the ship down the slipway.
@@suflanker45 ...and in the centre, where it should be, is the bulb I'm talking about - not huge but proportionally same as on other USN CAs, CVs and BBs of the time.
Yes, bulbous bows are actually quite good for ships similar in size to the Atlanta.
Oh man, the Sullivan brothers. We remember them and appreciate their sacrifice, may they rest in peace.
As a 78" tall 51 yr old USNR vet..great show and Cheers to the Channell.
Q & A What do you think of big gunned submarines? With notable real ships like the M-class and Surcouf coming to mind, but also some of US Bureau of Construction and Repair designs that incorporated eight or more 8 inch guns. Although ridiculous sounding, would these have had any at all usefulness in war?
As anti shipping weapons, they work. Remember the rules of Commerce warfare were that you ID ships. Search cargoes. Let the crew take to the boats, and use the deck guns. Once you adapt unrestricted sub warfare, they can torpedo ships on sight.
All sides' subs commonly operated surfaced during night actions, for better speed and so they could bring their guns to bear as well. Submerging was seen as an escape option if things got too hot. I imagine the larger guns on those sub classes would do very very nasty things if they hit a typical ASW escort. Possibly even overkill.
On the other hand, such large subs would be bigger (and much easier to see at night), and probably slower, so using them in the ind of close-quarters fighting that nighttime sub attacks usually became would be a major concern. But instead using those big guns to harass a convoy from longer ranges could be effective.
The whole impetus behind up-gunned submarines was the Washington Naval Treaty; they were seen as a workaround for heavy cruiser restrictions. In the real world, the Surcouf just didn't cut it. Very difficult for a relatively shallow-draft vessel to maintain a target in any sort of seaway. On top of that, the fire director was pretty much on top of nothing...subs are notably lowslung. That big twin 8" turret and wonderfully optimistic 600-round(!) magazine made the Surcouf slow to dive and unwieldy once she got there.
It was an interesting concept, just not very practical.
Love that you told the story of the Sullivan Brothers. Not a too well known fact (maybe more so since it was mentioned in Saving Pvt Ryan), but pretty interesting. I spent a few days looking around USS The Sullivans and Little Rock while in Buffalo
It's important to note that Juneau, Spokane and Fresno were constructed with the middle superfiring turrets both fore and aft (turrets 2 and 4) lowered to the main deck allowing the highest superfiring turrets(three and four) to be lowered one deck giving the ships more stability from a lower center of gravity. The result was centerline turrets 1, 2, 5 & 6 on the main deck level with turret 3 superfiring over turret 2 forward and turret 4 superfiring over turret 5 aft. I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention or picture them here.
I'm way late on this but...
The CL-119 Juneau, Spokane, and Fresno were the later 3 ships he only briefly mentions. The follow on class after the Oaklands. They commissioned after ww2.
The original CL-52 Juneau was the same as the Atlanta.
Good move. ( Human Voice ) Also the voice sounds good. A+ on everything.
I remember watching the documentary where Robert found Ballard USS Atlanta when it aired back in the 90s and what Admiral kurita pulled off was absolutely devastating people don't realize he got within torpedo range of these ships and the resolving attacks were absolutely devastating
Ballard noted that they took a lot of shots right into the bridge of the Atlanta and the entire bridge crew must have been killed.
thankfully the proliferation of radar eventually took away the distinct advantage that the Japanese had at night which was largely due to their really good night optics
Increasing the quality as well as quantity of radar was also big. The USN had radar in the Battle of the Savo Island but it didn't work well especially with the islands all around. The US also used it too sparingly (only every half hour) for fear of revealing its own positions. So the Japanese arrived undetected.
So,we’ve the Juno to thank for ‘Saving Private Ryan’! Had one brother survived, I guess it would have been ‘Saving Able Seaman O’Sullivan’
Juno was hit by a sub, not a surface action. Sadly USN leaders at this time were virtually ignorant of this class’s radar capabilities and the ships were not used as command ships. As a result the night actions at Guadalcanal were totally confused and the opportunities made available by their radar gun laying and enemy identification abilities were not realised and confusion reigned.
Actually, USS Juneau was damaged in the surface engagement, torpedoed by Amatsukaze and IIRC hit by gunfire as well. The I-26 torpedoed her the next day as she retired.
I like that at 1:24, just as you say "The Oakland subclass", you switch to a photo from Oakland, California (or possibly Alameda) looking towards San Francisco (and the western anchorage of the SF Bay Bridge).
What a gorgeous ship.
I believe that a video dealing with the amphibious ships will be helpful such as the LST’s.
Thanks,
Ed
It is a beautiful ship.
Many/most IJN light cruisers were also designed to be destroyer squadron leaders. That may be a reason IJN admirals evacuated from their flagships sometimes went first to light cruisers, because of their command capabilities.
2:52 the crew are masked up!
Thanks again for another history lesson in Navy's in WWII,. Would it be possible to follow up on HMAS Shropshire heavy cruiser of the Australian Navy. All I know is my grandfather served on her, He was at the times chief gunnery officer and one of the major battles was at the battle of leyte gulf right up to the end of the war in Tokyo Harbour / bay, also I have heard that it's razor was at 160 nautical miles and it's code name was porthole but further information would be great thank you.
Review the uss oregon! Hard to believe its the drydock thumbnail but hasnt been reviewed yet
Great to have a session on HMS Tarlair. Not really a ship but fundamental Navy research in WW1 for future ASDIC and Sonor
Both my father and uncle were on the USS Atlanta as original crew and on her when she was sunk... While much is made of the fact that they should have not been in a surface fight, it's interesting to note how many more losses in the early part of the war were heavy cruisers..Essentially we fight what we brought. Atlanta was credited with dispatching a Japanese destroyer. Juneau would have not sunk had it not been for the second torpedo and Atlanta could have been salvaged were it not for San Francisco friendly fire incident. Destroyers ruled the night and if tactics were adjusted Atlanta's were suited for night engagement.. Check out my web site at www.ussatlanta.com and also check out a documentary on the USS Atlanta with interviews of survivors and awesome dive footage - the trailer is on my site .. Thank you for this excellent video..
6:00 "Atlanta was commissioned in December 1941, just a few *weeks* before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor."
That's a pretty good trick, fitting "a few weeks" into a six-day period. 😂
He's a Brit....They're Special. JUST KIDDING!!! (Ducks chair.)
Love, love the AA Cruisers. If I were on a capital ship at sea, I would want one of them very, very close to me.
1:45 what happened there??? Looks like a disbursment of bouyancy!
Love the videos, I appreciate the care youve taken and the work you do on these great pieces. :)
The almost subliminal photos around 1:40 are entertaining.
*WATASHIWA NAMBAH WAN!*
Hell yaeh!!!
Ah, I see you're a shikikan of culture as well.
The sandy cult is here as well
It is like the TF2 engineer incarnate. "Use a gun, and if that don't work, use more gun."
I've noticed it in every video with this intro. What is the debris blowing out from between the turret at the 0:22 to 0:23 mark? Thanks, Bruce.
you get aa, you get aa, you get aa YOU ALL GET AA * insert operahs crowd screaming with joy*
My favourite ship in Navyfield... You could run it as AA or exploit the game mechanics to take on heavy cruisers with high angle shots that doubled your damage output.
Crazy some of them in the reserve fleet made it to 1970. Great ships.
USS Atlanta was sunk at Guadalcanal partly by friendly fire from USS San Francisco, which fueled a fierce NFL division rivalry between the Atlanta Falcons and the San Francisco 49ers which lasted for decades
Never heard that...
@@francisbusa1074 I made it the F-- up :D
I would like to see one on the gunships that were in China around the boxer rebellion times. Like the Pueblo .
Those things were floating 127mm machine guns.
Could you do a review of the USS Baltimore CA-68 or the Baltimore class in general?
At 3:36, what is the blast shield protecting? Compressed air tank?
The control station for the mount. Some mounts had them because there were 5" gun mounts right next to it and the blast could injure the crewmember manning the torpedoes.
Another awesome video
Must have been difficult to store so many different types of shells on a ship.
Put the 20mm inside the 40mm and put the 40mm inside the 5 inchers.
The whole point of dual purpose guns was to reduce that problem. Other navies (ahem, Germany) had two different kinds of secondary armament, one for surface targets and one for aircraft.
Juneau was sunk by a submarine the day after the naval battle. Friendly ships left the survivors in the water because they had no ASW capability and were forced to keep moving. A failure in coordination afterwards delayed rescue efforts, with tragic consequences.
Thank you for the video.
All those guns. I can almost ask, "Would you like a ship to go under all those weapons?
Q&A: How would the original design have fared in the rougher seas of the Atlantic or even the Arctic?
As the ships had stability problems I don't think they would have been successful there without losing some top weight.
The ships as built didn't have stability problems; that only cropped up during wartime service as AAA proliferated.
If need be, they probably could have followed the example of many another ship and landed some of the less-needed or -used systems (the torpedo tubes come to mind) to reduce topweight.
whats the point?
unless the germans were arming sea gulls with bombs,,,
why send an AA cruiser to the Atlantic/arctic?
they were overloaded/over armed to deal with japanese in the pacific. would not make sense to over arm a CA with AA in the Atlantic.
@@jeffreymcfadden9403 You're probably right. The Focke-Wulf 200 Condors were wreaking havoc in the early years of the war, but by the time Atlantas were available, that threat had already been dealt with by escort carriers.
Interesting reminder that it was the Juneau that the Sullivans served on. Might you do a short on their namesake DD-537, or was her career too mundane?
hey man I love your vids,thx
3:30 I may not have majored in mathematics, but I count 5 tubes not 4. You're cheating Mr. Drachinifel.
Have you ever considered doing videos on submarine classes?
The band Caroline's spine wrote a song called Sullivan's about the 5 bothers..
Other nations: "Our ships are unstable due to poor design. We should redesign them.'
USN: Our ships are unstable due to too many guns and too much ammo. We should remove other weapons and add more guns."
Yeah the Atlanta getting shot up by San Francisco on one side & the IJN on the other side. Plus the Atlanta & Juneau is made more for anti-aircraft rather than anti-surface fire. And taking a long lance is even major for a battleship much less a small cruiser! Poor guys.
Ah yes, the gatling gun from World of Warships 😂
Yeah 14 gun broadsides and quick firing. Feels like I'm commanding a tiger.
God this is my favorite ship I'd kill to got back and tour it
Can you do a video on the landing ships that had doors in front for tanks to come out if you haven't done one yet?
Could you do the Dido class? As a similar RN vessel be good to weigh them up
there was like 60 pair of brothers on the Arizona wasnt there?
What were the three ships that came after the Oakland class, never heard of them and they don’t show up in a general google search for anti-aircraft cruisers.
The final class consisted of CL-119 *Juneau* (Yes, they repeated the name on an almost-identical ship), CL-120 *Spokane*, and CL-121 *Fresno*. They were built without depth charges or torpedo launchers and had a lightened superstructure allowing them to carry as many guns as the Oaklands with better stability.
Lies: Drachinifel
is a video producing machine.
Good looking ships despite their weaknesses
_Do you see that air raid, Lieutenant?_
"Yes sir, 8 Kates off our starboard."
*_I don't want to._*
"Yes sir."
Got this ship in WOWS:Blitz. Fun ship. Kind of a paper tiger tho. But she hits hard .
One of them blew up my Aoba last night. Also I try to avoid them when playing as a carrier.
USS San Diego has nearly as many battle stars as the Grey Ghost, the fabled USS Enterprise (CV-6).
With all of the guns they mounted on those ships, they were starting to resemble the USS Second Amendment (from the April 1 episode).
James Barca
I actually think the Atlantas were even crazier in having so many guns.
It has a lot of guns...
Well thats *AMERICANS* for ya!
Was waiting for a mention of Sandy. :(
sorry but shes not numba wan here
So, how may guns do you want?
US Navy: EVERYTHING!!! ReeeEE!!!!
Not many countries will let you go home based on grief. Helps both the navy and the service member though, good on them.
Literally "The Queen of AA"
Didn't the story of the Juneau go that it was struck by a torpedo, but damage control units were able to repair the damage, only to be struck in the same spot by a second torpedo?