The Best Engine Development Tool You've Never Heard Of! Spintron
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- While taking a tour of EFI University, Ben showed us the coolest engine development tool we'd never heard of, a Spintron machine. Even cooler was watching it test out parts for an LS engine that spins well past 10,000rpm.
Check out EFI University training and online courses here: www.efi101.com/
Between this and Gale Banks videos I feel like I know more than I ever learned in 20yrs of wrenching at home or with friends in the garage, street or track. Cool stuff.
Several years ago I saw one of those visible V8 engines on an electric motor running 5000 RPMs. I thought having lunch motor twisting and regular engine to collect data would have been a perfect thing but I never had any idea how to develop that. And everybody thought I was crazy for even having the idea so I stopped talking about it.
It's amazing to see that idea coming to life through the spintron.
Engineering porn, it has been a long time since something made me this happy. Damn this is cool...
Hilarious!! I was thinking something very similar watching this, geeking out! "This is sofa king cool! It's like Christmas for enginerds and gear heads!"
That was the best presentation for engine development through data collection I've ever seen on RUclips. Great work!
I long ago stopped thinking that thing's that are "solid" are solid..
Everything in this reality is fluid.
This gave me the same “happy feels” as when I watched the d-sport clip about torque-plating heads to machine valve seats. Great information and continues to show how little I know about engines.
Whats about HEAT?
Its differences in cold and warm valve train, especially in tolerances?
Cheers from Sweden
Nascar teams have been using these machines for a while now. Sustained periods of time at 9000 RPM needs to be solid this is the perfect tool to test and develop valve train.
Spintrons have been around since late 80s or so... nothing new, but data acquisition is what was problematic.. they started with strobes and high speed photography..
There's a video on RUclips of some heads from a Toyota nascar engine on a spintron. Sounds just like a running engine
The information available over the internet is just Amazing!!!! Equal to a concrete college classroom.....and beyond!!
Smokey Yunick had one here in Daytona Beach in the 50s and 60s. Peace
I love it when this new generation of kids think they have something new that no one else has or had....
Anything called a spintron had to be from the 50s.
These types have been around since the early 1990s. Bob Fox invented them. Ben’s is that with modern interface. The Spintron was instrumental in NASCAR utilizing controlled loft, going back 20 years ago.
It's awesome when someone takes engineering principals to the next level and actually gets useful concrete data from testing. Like he said many times, now you can have full confidence in designs and not just guess and check.
Awesome work, I have spent some time on the spintron at Comp. And let me tell you the thing will drive you crazy after a day of it screaming away. This is one thing I feel needs testing, and maybe you have done this? But if you look at all your shaft rocker systems, the shafts are always above the shaft C/L so all the bending moment is placed on the 5/16 bolts holding the shafts to the stands. What I always do is re, machine the stands to lower the shafts below the C/L , so now you are puting the stress into the stands and not just the bolts.It would be interesting to see what this does on a spintron at 10,000 rpm with 800lbs of spring load over the nose of the cam?
Having worked for a company that had its own Spintron, I can say this is a very good video. The uses of this machine are almost limitless.
Takes me right back this vid! We used to do this back in the mid 1990's when i firsty started engine dev for a world famous high performance house!
(today, it's all done in the virtual world in software.........)
What about the effect that temperature has on the moving components?
We run a heater on the oil tank to bring it to operating temperature.
Yes. Tolerances change, oil viscosity changes - valid test factors.
But I have heard of a spintron. Used a lot for testing rotating assemblies. I’ve used them for finding harmonic interference in mechanical equipment.
Same, use them at work
Nice vid devalued by clickbaity title.
@Matthew Giles
What do you test on it?
0.45 I like the sign with University spelt Univeristy......
Yeah I saw that. Pmsl!
Wow, kudos for the spot. Haha.
I get annoyed by people spelling brakes as breaks.......... E.G. Slam on the breaks and take a brake. Sheesh.
"spelled" here in the colonies!
yore crazy...
Up next: testing electric motors by spinning them with an internal combustion engine ;-)
Kinda started that way...
@leif52pickup yes i have something like that already, I call it my generator😅
@@FredBuildandFix 😂 spot on sir
Sounds better to me lol
good catch
Anyone else get annoyed that university is spelt wrong on the banner behind him? or just me?
You are pretty good catching that. I had to skip back in the video to see it
They should've tested the banner on the spintron...
i mean now i am
was more annoyed at the windows update message that popped up near the end
XD
Are you from the UK? "Spelt" as a verb is the past participle of spell in "British english". Common American use is spelled. Spelt as a noun is a type of ground wheat.
And yes, university is spelled wrong. Sharp eye!
Probably one of the coolest things to learn on. You can definitely build a beast of a RB on that
I think this is going to be the best video of 2020 for me
That was so cool. I had heard of one year's ago but had no idea what it really did. Thank you... New subscriber...
To put it in simple terms. There is so much WIN in this video!
can also be used to find crank deflection, just need to add optic laser on a large disc, with same size disc at other end of motor.
The Nicken’s Mopar NHRA Pro Stock team had a simular system in the early 2000’s, only they used a system of high speed cameras to monitor the valve train, mainly to track how many runs could be made on a set of valve springs before one would break. This set up takes it to the top! Totally Awesome!!
That and to monitor float, nascar engines use float in a genius way actually, they use that float to open the valves and get them out of the way even more
Love it, back when I was a kid the one age old question was what's the best street/strip cam/ package. A lot of people asking didn't realize everything that has to be taken into consideration My first build was a Maverick grabber with a 302 with ported Windsor heads with oversize 198(I think) and 202 Chevy valves with Forged 12.5:1 TRW high domes on NOS. Did most the work myself at 21. My next build was going to be a 6:71 blown 72 Vega gt with Chevy hemi heads but the older I got the more I liked the thought of slowing down with all electric. Now Tesla, so much for slowing down. That 302 I built probably would have crossed you as a nightmare with those diesel valve guide sleaves pressed into the pushrod holes so I could over port and polish the heads. I could have used this the first few startups to figure out the correct pushrods I needed before I bent a few. My question would have been Lunati or Comp.? I could have spent forever running tests with that....
Andrew this machine is a game changer !!!
Amazing explanation of the Spintron and it's applications. Very impressed.
This guy is strong. Best video I've seen in a long long time.
That would make one hell of an air compressor!
I can appreciate the opportunities this machine creates. The only way to sell these is to make the best ones
Learned more about valvetrain motion in 20 minutes than a week of studying.
Love the skill,knowledge,time and effort put in to this. Just a question Do it take in to account the compression and explosion in the cylinder under load can this be programmed into the run cycle
Huge step in motor building id love to have one. All the clearance and measurements issiues can be looked at and studied. Then fixed or modified. This is awesome
Why does it feel like I have seen this footage before? Still amazing info.
I wish they had a running LS that would spin up 11K RPM, it would be awe inspiring just to hear it.
They do. Look on their facebook page for Spinal Tap
the valvetrain is so critical, technology like this changes everything
Can we add boost to see how those values will react?
That’s what I was wondering. Turbocharged applications usually have a lot of back pressure between exhaust valve and turbine, which can can cause valve float (along with rpm).
With no pistons nor crank, how do you plan on actually building that boost..?
The F1 folks literally used industrial compressors to build boost on their engines before attaching turbos
That is the most engaging video I think I’ve ever watched on RUclips. Good job and thank you.
I had no idea.... I love the level of tech you have in this video!
Great technology and will continue to contribute to advancements in engine design, new technology ? not by a long shot, Smokey Yunick pioneered this technology and we lost "the best damn mechanic in town" back in 2001, so a shout out to the man is in order when espousing his technology that is part of his legacy.
Let's not get carried away. Smokey was just measuring the frictional loss in the engine, getting no data about what the valves are actually doing. This thing is using lasers to measure the valves in real time. You can't say he invented it when this is so much more. With this technology you can actually develop valvetrains, not just see how much power they take to run.
@@xeigen2 think you need to learn how to read, I said pioneered, and he did more than measure frictional loses if you do you research, same as wright brothers pioneered flight and to alude modern aircraft not connected because technology has advanced, cudos to original thinkers, just because you expand on an original idea doesn't make it new
John mihovetz,owner of accufab throttle bodies used spin tron too perfect a 4.6 ford to the tune of 250 mph in 1/4 mile👍
that's a badass piece of equipment.
Explained so well, I can guess another benefit of this is to know the properties of different materials working under various conditions to enable modifying those materials for better performance. Trying different alloys for example.
Exactly, when valve springs were hardened and could withstand 8000 RPM things like the caps were then too soft and valve stems too weak and thus the evolution of the pushrod NASCAR valve train around the turn of the century....the spintron was crucial in helping manufacturers redesign parts around improved springs and high RPMs....
Awesome, how are they factoring in the changes for real life heat on the parts?
And cylinder pressure.. And boost..
As a spec tool at a university lucky students.
Opening the doors to mega dollar race teams, and there knowledge base . Nice
Im going to watch this video 10 more times this is so kickass
Very, very informative video - I'm a (D)OHC guy, but many of the principles still apply.
Never heard of one, but now I want one
so good ....so much info...great vid!
Very interesting to see and hear it operating as well as the explanation. How do you compensate for cylinder pressures affecting the valves in terms of keeping them on the seats?
Look like the smoketron of Smokey Yulnick.
Amazing how few know of him. Even created 3 Adiabatic engines. A V twin, an inline 3 and a V4. V4 didn't even have a cooling system, not even fins. Muffler stayed cold. Yin/Yang Pistons and cylinder heads, heated intake, he broke all the rules of modern engine designs, and bent the rules at NASCAR.
Smokey was way ahead of his time.
Frédéric Richer it’s the same basic machine, but with the computer software of today
Smokey Yunick pioneered this machine. It sits in Don Garlits museum in Ocala Fl
Ive heard of the Spintron....but then again, Im nerdy like that👍
Wonder how much those numbers change when you start getting into LOADING the valves in an actual engine... You forget, the exhaust valve doesnt just lend itself to just opening on the blowdown cycle. It's physically being held shut by combustion gasses+spring. Theres a reason we use compressed air in a cylinder to hold the valves while we change springs etc.
But your valve events shouldn't be happening while the cylinder is under pressure, otherwise you've got horsepower going down your exhaust instead of to the tires.
It seems like the big benefit of this equipment/test technology is what is happening in the valvetrain once the valve is well off of the seat, when there is no significant pressure differential across the valve.
Scrap the whole valve power train and use a Konisegg Freevalve system.
Look at what you don’t need any more -
Cams
Can drive
Rockers/buckets
Pushrods
Heavy valve springs
Throttle body
Starter motor
Heavy flywheel.
You gain
50% power increase 20% reduction in fuel consumption valve periods adjusted on the fly to driver’s power demands and engine speed.
Foot off the gas all the valves shut so there’s no parasitic load on the engine. When minimal power is needed power stokes can be missed out.
What about heat, and exhaust pulse. What about air being pulled in, those things affect valves. I really like this machine, it's a nice step forward.
Excellent video! A view into next level competition engine development.
Roush / yates was using this exact machine to build our FORD cammer motors ......in 2005
Even before that ... i heard of the spintron in like 1998 , all the NASCAR engine builders were probably testing their parts on one....
It's amazing how far you can go to create the perfect engine package. I love the philosophy of "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it". One thing I've always thought about is the lightening/balancing of engine components. In a push rod configuration I wounder if anyone has gone to the lengths of Titanium or even Carbon push rods??
Carbon fiber pushrods were produced years ago, but never gained traction commercially.
Obviously this is immensely helpful. I wonder what impacts the cylinder pressure effects have to the validity of the results?
Crazy shit, seen a older version of this but without the superior measuring & control tools
GM Performance build plant had one when I went. Seriously cool stuff.
That’s great in free air, no load, but how do you account for cylinder pressure when the pistons are in, fuel flowing, spark plugs sparking? Perhaps the reason this test stand is rare because there is little benefit relative to a dyno .... in my opinion.
dgretlein haha... you’re probably right.
It would be all good for diagnosis of engine problems, but what do you expect to do to keep a valve from floating on anything less than all cylinders? You shim for installed valve height so you what is there to do but go to a stiffer set of springs? I don’t see a benefit because the engine isn’t under a load which changes cylinder pressure which helps seal valves and rings under compression. Factory engines are broke in by spinning but I can’t see a benefit other than for a cam break in procedure. Cool idea with the lasers though.
Really interesting, it's hard to find new information when you have been involved in hot rodding since the seventies. I would go to the magazine rack at the story each month and go through every magazine looking for new things to learn. I would buy several magazines each month, and read them cover to cover. I did the same thing through the eighties and nineties but then it started getting harder and harder to get that "fix" of new information. I watched all the musle car TV shows, and eventually they just started repeating the same stuff too. So now I am in my sixties and it's wonderful to see something new and exciting come along. I want to know everyone of those items you mentioned at the end. How much HP does the oil pump take at 6000 RPM? But I have one that you didn't mention but you need some pistons etc. If an engine is actually an air pump then it makes sense to run that complete engine up with intake manifolds and exhaust on and measure the airflow characteristics with different combinations. You could get a headstart on what the best combinations are by how much air flow, air temp and back pressure at RPM, then you go to the dyno to find just the best spark and fuel mapping. How exciting! Can you please let me know how to follow your testing and data? But one thing I find confusing, is why you would want an ECU to control your electric motor drive? I am retired now but I was an engineering manager and if I were to do the project of building the spintron, I would have used a 75 Hp servo with PLC control which would be able to control the acceleration and decel curves to a incredibly high rate, much, much higher than a standard 75 HP motor. Also the resolution of the crank rotation would be much higher than 360 counts per rev however I don't know what the upper limit is now for a digital high speed input. It might have to be only 360 counts at 10,000 RPM. Anyways very interesting stuff. Thank you for posting. (by the way if you want to see a PLC applied to a car you can check out "John's 1975 Formula 400 Firebird" on facebook. Something you don't see everyday)
By the way before someone comments about using electric motors to turn engines is old hat, I have seen various electric engine stands to break in engines and do testing but I have not seen the data, that they have produced. What I have seen is usually race teams doing it and not sharing the data, They probably are measuring air flow but wouldn't it be nice to see what they learned?
Could you hook a bottle of nitrogen and some solenoids to each spark plug hole ,to simulate combustion Peak pressures on the non monitored cylinders in order to take crank deflection into the your equation. You could replace the valve relief in the Piston with a laser, transparent port plug , for monitoring valve interactions as you do now.
A very interesting concept, but I wonder what effect the lack of a compressed gas in the combustion chamber and flowing through the valve has on the dynamics of the valve motion. This is an incredibly useful tool no doubt, but I wonder how well this data compares to an actual in-use valve train.
I read a forum post from a guy years ago who described one of these, it was running with pistons so had compression and he was amazed that a v8 still sounded like a v8 even without fuel or a spark.
Ever since then I've been looking forward to the day EV powertrains have so much spare capacity that they can spin a big block around too to make your journey interesting haha
>EV powertrains have so much spare capacity that they can spin a big block around too to make your journey interesting haha
Bet you share your women, boomer. That was fucking disgusting
This guy is top notch.
Really good explanatory video about the Spintron. Wonder how much one costs?
Great!!! now I know of another 100 things that i don't know.... btw I loved it!!
I say the 1/2" pushrod was deflecting other components because of the added weight. 😉
Wouldn't the fact that there is no pressure (compression) in the cylinder make the data inaccurate? I can still see the amazing benefit of using the Spintron. but how do you deal with what I have pointed out?
Cylinder pressure in a turbo application can greatly affect the opening forces on a valve depending on the camshaft lobe timing and shape. NA applications are likely to be affected much less.
Good video more like this would be good
Thanks
Great technical video hawko.
WOW
Liked and subscribed here’s the thing I learned today.Thank you
Fantastic Machine !!!!
Very good video. I was just left wondering have they tested how much heat affect valve stability?
Please, bushing vs needle bearing for stock LS rocker trunnion kits......I've been curious for awhile.
I love high revving engines but man they get complicated
By merely using higher-torque-rated driveline components, you can enjoy high output without the high revs. They took that approach in WWII fighter planes.
Wow that was really interesting...., thanks for sharing this great peace of information
the simplest thing cost the most i thought about building a simulator rig fer years no good at code so that was that but me cool to use one on my 5mge n mod it.your rig is sweet good to see that you all did this bloody nice man to see what lazers and sensors and a computers arduno type stuff or 4 can do wen the used rightly in a engine shop
Nice work.
AWSOME MACHINE!
Can a Motocycle engine/valve be tested in the machine?
Because that would open a big market because its VERY high reving engines and hard on valvetrain
Freaking awesome!
Amazing video! Gotta love that data
I get a kick out of some of the comments. Oh so worried about spelling on a banner when they have some of the finest test equipment available. THEY DEVELOPED THEIR OWN VALIDATED SOFTWARE! Yet you’re worried about a banner? Wow I don’t think you realize what it takes to make accurate measurements at 10,000 RPM’s. This is state of the art equipment here! Hope I got my spelling right.
You need to test for the valve guide wear and breaking of the ls7 head vs the ls3.
that sound might scare people. it just puts a smile on my face.
How much power does it take to spin the valvetrain at various engine speeds? That would be interesting to find out. How is that power requirement affected by valve spring rate?
Good video. Very informative but---
Too bad the hourly rate will probably still require me to learn the old fashion way, ie., break parts, modify/change parts , try again.
There again, good technology ain't cheep.
I splelted cheep wrong on porpoise.
Compare the hourly rate to how much you'll spend breaking parts, modifying, trial and error, etc. I wonder which route would be cheaper
Thats gonna be the name of my new techno band SPINTRON"
Great stuff. Would be cooler to see on an engine from this century!
One huge advantage you can easily see is just how much oil is being pumped to the cylinder head valve train that can be a serious problem at extreme high RPMs .. as Once Upon a Time there was a machine shop in Terre Haute Indiana called Loeser's and Son who built a DZ 302 chevy with eight helburn injectors placed in a 32 Ford Coupe called Underdog with a big sun tachometer mounted on the dash so everyone could see it at the track as they would allow us to watch from the tree as the Lights Went Down and underdogs tachometer would go to the peg dropping the clutch wheels in the air smoking the tires in all four gear of a rock crusher I will not tell you the RPM as it is embarrassing to say today your machine would have been needed as Underdog always seem to have a fresh motor versus their competition from United Auto Parts a 292 that busted cylinder heads trying to keep up. It was late 1969 early 1970 Aziz Ole Boys we're turning in the five at Charleston Illinois 1/8 mile drag strip...hint the big new sun tach with big glowing numbers that were labled 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,and 15.... beautiful tach large face that no one ever mentioned what it was reading as we were all to embarrassed to say ...but my pal "moose" said maybe we should stand back a little further
Heat definitely changes the dynamics of metal parts. Is heat factored in when running the engine with this Spin-Tron?
Ben knows what he is doing. NASCAR teams know what they are doing. This is done to test drivetrain stability before it goes on an engine dyno
Am I crazy to think most of this could be done with just an electric motor and a high speed camera? It wouldn't be as convenient but it also wouldn't cost as much as the building it was used in.
He mentions there's no crank or Pistons. Would this make a difference on what he described as valve Loft or valve bounce?
Harmonic crank twist is exactly why Fluid Dampener is in business. When I installed one of my 12 valve Cummins I could take the thing to church you could still hear the mouse fart,compaired to the stock elastameter .
Although I'm not a typical Builder I've been asked when I converted my diesel into a 360, I like it quiet but I'll still take the old Dodge over hundred Factory they couldn't
Ive watched enough banks power to say try a silicon filled camshaft damper.
I can see this being very beneficial on the upper end of an engine, however I don't see any benefit on the bottom end. Combustion plays a huge roll in what happens in the bottom end and with this tester, it would not be able to duplicate it. I'm not downing this test equipment, this is good stuff! I'm seeing this as a 50% test. Connecting rod and crankshaft deflection could not be duplicated with this piece of equipment.
They do this to get vamvetrain stable then go on engine dyno
Motive Video . That was my thought as well.
If half of an engines noise comes from the valvetrain, why are rotories so damn noisy?
On a more serious note, nice to discover valve float and harmonics before a valve shares the same point in space time as a piston.
Bruizey they arnt. Very loud exhaust not engine noise
@@TDJDriftersBoss Yeah, was kind of tongue in cheek... I own one. I once asked my exhaust guy how to make it quieter, he said shut it off lol
@@bruizey7319 lmao