AVUS was planed to be even crazier at the end of 1939. Trees had been cleared and preliminary construction was started for a second identical banking on the south end but was never completed for obvious reasons. would love to try that in a sim Edit: Nice BJ shirt Aidan :)
Hi me born and raised in Berlin still remembers the time when there was no speedlimit on parts of the Avus in the 80s (born 77) and my dad would go as fast as 220 kmh/136 mph on it. Btw great Content . Greetings from Berlin Have a nice Day
I went to the Fontana race the same year that de Ferran set the closed course speed record there at 241+ MPH. I've been to over a dozen F1 races and more CART road races than I can remember, and I've never seen anything like it. It wasn't fun though. The race was rained out after about 20 laps and I was relieved. Sitting in the entrance to turn 1, which was so much tighter than it looked on TV but was still flat out at 230+ in race conditions, I knew any accident there was going to be huge and I didn't want to be there to see it. I did not go back on Monday for the restart.
To lower aero drag, you actually need to _raise_ the car's ride height (by quite a bit, in fact). That way, the floor of the car gets unstuck from the road, and lowers the amount of downforce (and consequently, drag) being made by the car's under tunnels. The same exact thing is true when you run the Lotus79 in iRacing: On the Indy oval, we _raise_ the ride heights by inches to get the top speed we need.
wrong actually. underbody downforce works differently from overbody downforce. lowering the car will create less drag and more downforce. you are completely wrong mate
@@sennasenna6023 Actually, you are wrong. Underbody downforce created via tunnels and diffusors _still create_ drag, just not as much drag (as a percentage) as compared to amount created by generating your downforce via wings or gurney flaps that are hung out directly into the airstream. While it is more aero efficient to generate your downforce under the car, there still exist drag penalties that come along with said downforce. There is no such thing as 'drag free' downforce, no matter how you create it. More downforce ALWAYS equals more drag.
@@sennasenna6023 I tried giving you a link, but youtubby keeps deleting it. So instead, just web search the phrase "Ground Effect Aerodynamics Of Race Cars". It'll be the first result at the top of the search. There ya go; study up, read that paper and get back to me.
This is also what the overtake button on the Williams FW15 did, it temporarily raised the ride height at the rear via the active suspension, to stall the diffuser and lower drag to increase the top speed and the chance of overtaking.
Which tells you why until he was more used to it, why Romain and his wife were against the super speedways. Even the current cars are fast AF and it's not like they're any less safe. The cars are safe, it's just there's only so much you can do at 240mph. F1 cars rarely ever see impact at those speeds. And yea I'm pretty sure current cars hit 240 at Indy in quali trim / draft.
Don't forget they aren't running full power on superspeedways. They're boost restricted to around 550hp in race trim and 625hp in Indy qualifying. They could get pretty close at full boost, and next year they'll be running around 900hp with a bigger engine and kers.
It depends of the trim used and engine used, which... The same can be said about Cart at the time. I know many refer to the beast. But I can do one better: get an offy engine from 1973: 1100 HP, no intercoolers, 3 atmosphere of turbo pressure. I can also do one better than that: a BMW F1 engine from 1985 (1500 HP in the grenade engine at Monza).
I always enjoy your content Aiden, keep at it! Group B at AVUS..? Story time of Keith O’Dor’s accident that was fatal(check out the John Winter fireball for ….I knew this was coming)
They weren't quite F1 V10 levels of noise, but they're a solid 2nd place and just as amazing in how much power and reliability Honda and Ford/Cosworth we're getting out of those engines.
Fascinating video. I was watching on my tablet and damn near felt the vibrations through it! Hope you're better soon. Tooth extractions are really painful. Not something I have to worry about any more, thankfully.
Wow if the old Indycars are this fast, I can’t imagine an old 90s V12 or modern V6 car with 1000+BPH with slicks, DRS and no restrictions, unmatched speeds
in terms of setup, I'm surprised you didn't both raise the ride height and set the suspension to have negative rake; eitiher/both, depending on the american oval series in question, were part of the setup characteristics that would be utilized to increase top speed. Note that when when NASCAR deregulated the ride heights for superspeedways, teams ran as low as they could , but would set up the rear to where at speed, the rear suspesion would bottom out, because spoiler closer to the free stream of air means even more drag.... meanwhile in Indycar, cars run fairly high in qualifying on superspeedways, and would also regularly run with negative rake for the top speeds (which contributed to a lot of the crazier oval crashes you saw in both CART and in Indycar, especially with the IR-05s...) because working the diffuser for downforce purposes meant more drag... Also I recall the active suspension Williams doing the negative-rake high-ride-height thing on straights.
lift the ride height these cars have large underbodies producing large amounts of downforce lifting the car will reduce downforce/drag or infact lift the front compared to the rear ;)
Others have said it but ill add mine. 1) next up Group C "monsters" vmax 2) same 3 cars on the VW Ehra-Lessien test track? Id guess the track is smoother so it might help maybe Idk. If its even in assetto corsa.
Many years ago I was talking with a PacWest engineer (well a former one) who stated at tracks like Fontana/Michigan, they'd gear for 250/260 when going flat out at those tracks, for context. Pacwest from 95 to 2002, so right in the ballpark for this car. That's 250/260 in race trim, so in the draft, but I've a feeling 240-250 was achieveable. I've seen it said somewhere De Ferran in 2000 hit the low to mid 250s at points during his record lap, and...of course...the speed traps at Indy in 1994 were insan when the Penskes came flying past
In 1994, Fittipaldi hit 247 on the backstretch at Indy. That was powered by the MB Monster. DeFerran probably could have set a land speed record at Bonneville with that thing he had.
1930s top speed focused racing when people were like stuffing what were effectively airplane engines into primitive racing chassis was just fucking bonkers. I wonder if we brought that back and started throwing in like commercial turboprop engines into cars that make like 4,000+ shaft horsepower what would happen!
Open up a telemetry app and find out if you really are bottoming. It looks like the setup page allows for greater suspension travel through the "travel range" option, so maybe soften springs and increase travel range.
@@jsquared1013 yes the frontal area is bigger on a Cup but it has lower drag than an Indycar due to the exposed wheels on the Indycar. In 2004 Rusty Wallace tested an unrestricted Cup car at Talladega which has way shorter straights than Avus hitting a top speed of 228 mph. His crew chief said if they would've change the gearing it could've done 235 mph.
@@willracer1jz At stock car DID hit that number, Road & Track did a top speed shootout between a Stock Car and a Porsche 962 GTP back in the late 80's. They went to the 7.5 mile transportation centers test track in Ohio were the Porsche maxed out in the high 220's using group C LeMans body work, Road America (shorter than optimal) gearing and a sick engine. The Stock Car hit 240 with the grill taped up, that was with a engine rated at 650 HP.
Love this…but a bit of constructive criticism. The car is a good 1100 rpm off the redline in 6th gear when you hit top speed, meaning you only have 890-920 hp rather than the full 960 that qualifying boost provides. As a general rule when you hit top speed you want to be about 100 rpm off the redline in top gear. I reckon that if you lowered the gears a little so that you hit top speed at 14,800-14,900 rpm (redline is 15,000) you could potentially even reach 270 mph, as you would have another 40-60 hp. Still, faster than a Veyron with less power is really impressive.
I genuinely have trouble going full whack around banked corners around that even in sim races. It's almost like it's TOO immersive and my common sense is kicking in
2 for 2, about to get some sleep then i get the notification. however i've been wondering about the avus Vmax part 2 electric boogaloo. can we get group C Vmax eventually?
Try this with slipstream 10x and with another CART car or Koenigsegg One in front. I've achived 404kmh wiht the Ferrari 2004 and 425kmh with the Sauber C9.
Wasn't someone killed during a BTCC round there and that's one of the reasons it's closed, or am I getting mixed up with something else? Great video either way! 👍 I just checked and it was Keith O'dors who was killed in 1995 during the BTCC round at the Avus
Indycars , save for the Beast, ran faster around only 2 miles of Michigan then the 2.5 miles of Indy from the layout and higher banked corners. Best thing to do for a real test? Daytona or better yet, Talledega.
I know absolutely buttons about all this alt reality sim stuff as I’m old as fuck…but see if there is a way that you can jerry rig a 90’s Indy car to run on toluene at 5 bar boost and test again for comparison purposes…
Aidan - You’re not gettting aggressive on the banked curve to start the lap. Tyre wear isn’t a issue for peak speed, so could you not just stay high on the banking, pick a spot, dive in and just beef it, taking advantage of the gradient? A la Valentino Rossi? The car then uses the compression of the banking. The tyres obviously get shredded but they are not the issue here, and all those last bits of energy count.
@@AidanMillward Camber also introduces more tyre deformation = heat = friction, the effects could be negligible but what I can find on the subject, its found to increase rolling resistance. But depend how the game simulates it.
CART was never as fast as F1. But nothing looked as good. F1 should ditch the top-mounted air intakes ASAP. Although with the halo device on the car, it would still spoil the lines.
take a gen 4 nascar thats 1992-2006 a gen 5 car thats 2008-2013 a gen 6 thats 2014 to 2021 and the new gen 7 all to le mans i want to know their top speeds
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7Wf0h1Q8a4/mqdefault.jpg)
Still some of the most beautiful open wheel race cars of all time. Perfectly proportioned and a sound to match.
There were also some awesome paint schemes (aka liveries) back then. The Target “lightning bolt” look in particular was fantastic
@@mrterp04 My favourite will always be Greg's '98 Player's livery. That Reynard looked stunning.
I think the driver should be a bit further back at the 0:45 car
AVUS was planed to be even crazier at the end of 1939. Trees had been cleared and preliminary construction was started for a second identical banking on the south end but was never completed for obvious reasons. would love to try that in a sim
Edit: Nice BJ shirt Aidan :)
Hi me born and raised in Berlin still remembers the time when there was no speedlimit on parts of the Avus in the 80s (born 77) and my dad would go as fast as 220 kmh/136 mph on it. Btw great Content . Greetings from Berlin Have a nice Day
I went to the Fontana race the same year that de Ferran set the closed course speed record there at 241+ MPH. I've been to over a dozen F1 races and more CART road races than I can remember, and I've never seen anything like it. It wasn't fun though. The race was rained out after about 20 laps and I was relieved. Sitting in the entrance to turn 1, which was so much tighter than it looked on TV but was still flat out at 230+ in race conditions, I knew any accident there was going to be huge and I didn't want to be there to see it. I did not go back on Monday for the restart.
Now imagine that they are still hitting 240 at Indy in the draft or in quali trim...in the CURRENT cars.
with two less cylinders and half the bhp lol
Next up, I would test every winning Le Mans 24 Hours car from 1970-1989.
That's a lot of Porsches
And THE Peugot
Does the Peugeot Project 400 have a mod anywhere?
@@SadMarinersFan closest you can find is a stolen payed mod (gt supreme) is the P39 iirc but no P400
If your recall the CART days 6th was often set up as a fuel mileage gear…with 5 providing max revs
To lower aero drag, you actually need to _raise_ the car's ride height (by quite a bit, in fact). That way, the floor of the car gets unstuck from the road, and lowers the amount of downforce (and consequently, drag) being made by the car's under tunnels. The same exact thing is true when you run the Lotus79 in iRacing: On the Indy oval, we _raise_ the ride heights by inches to get the top speed we need.
wrong actually. underbody downforce works differently from overbody downforce. lowering the car will create less drag and more downforce. you are completely wrong mate
@@sennasenna6023 Actually, you are wrong. Underbody downforce created via tunnels and diffusors _still create_ drag, just not as much drag (as a percentage) as compared to amount created by generating your downforce via wings or gurney flaps that are hung out directly into the airstream.
While it is more aero efficient to generate your downforce under the car, there still exist drag penalties that come along with said downforce. There is no such thing as 'drag free' downforce, no matter how you create it. More downforce ALWAYS equals more drag.
@@sennasenna6023 I tried giving you a link, but youtubby keeps deleting it. So instead, just web search the phrase
"Ground Effect Aerodynamics Of Race Cars". It'll be the first result at the top of the search. There ya go; study up, read that paper and get back to me.
This is also what the overtake button on the Williams FW15 did, it temporarily raised the ride height at the rear via the active suspension, to stall the diffuser and lower drag to increase the top speed and the chance of overtaking.
@@hippyjason I think your thinking about corner speed!
People forget how fast those cars really were. They were amazing.
I went to a race in the early 2000s at Atlanta Motor Speedway & you couldn't really follow it in person.
Indycar runs negative wing angles during qualifying to minimize downforce.
Minimize drag? I don't see why anyone would try to minimize down force...
You only need as much downforce as you need to get through a corner flat.
You really deserve more subs Aiden, this is easily the most informative motorsport channel on youtube, Thanks for your work mate.
would love to see what the Cart cars would do around Monza with the oval
It’s super fun to do, hard to race
2:49 sheesh aidan... hope you get better soon, and pls be careful with those!
I can just imagine the scenes of Cart cars flying off the banking.
That would cause WW3 as the soviets would mistake it for a missile
It would be like a scene from "Driven"
Wouldn't be much more dangerous than regular CART
Aidan, Blue Jays jersey, big fan?? Love it
“Buffeting” I do love me a Captain Slow reference.
I’m enjoying these “what if” videos of late.
I think both CART and the modern Indy-Dallara can sustain 260+ MPH
*Which is scary to think about*
Which tells you why until he was more used to it, why Romain and his wife were against the super speedways. Even the current cars are fast AF and it's not like they're any less safe. The cars are safe, it's just there's only so much you can do at 240mph. F1 cars rarely ever see impact at those speeds.
And yea I'm pretty sure current cars hit 240 at Indy in quali trim / draft.
@@Real28 a modern IndyCar with The Beast engine would be insane.
Don't forget they aren't running full power on superspeedways. They're boost restricted to around 550hp in race trim and 625hp in Indy qualifying.
They could get pretty close at full boost, and next year they'll be running around 900hp with a bigger engine and kers.
Indy-Dallara, top speed is 240mph (386 km/h)
It depends of the trim used and engine used, which... The same can be said about Cart at the time.
I know many refer to the beast. But I can do one better: get an offy engine from 1973: 1100 HP, no intercoolers, 3 atmosphere of turbo pressure.
I can also do one better than that: a BMW F1 engine from 1985 (1500 HP in the grenade engine at Monza).
I always enjoy your content Aiden, keep at it!
Group B at AVUS..?
Story time of Keith O’Dor’s accident that was fatal(check out the John Winter fireball for ….I knew this was coming)
Gil DeFerrans engineer said his car hit 252mph on the straight on his still-record 241mph lap
I heard stories about people hearing those engines for miles around, that’s how loud they were
They weren't quite F1 V10 levels of noise, but they're a solid 2nd place and just as amazing in how much power and reliability Honda and Ford/Cosworth we're getting out of those engines.
That last turn reminds me of Luigi Circuit.
Racing oval-kit CART cars at Monza 66, Reims, etc on Assetto Corsa is great fun
Fascinating video. I was watching on my tablet and damn near felt the vibrations through it!
Hope you're better soon. Tooth extractions are really painful. Not something I have to worry about any more, thankfully.
Wow if the old Indycars are this fast, I can’t imagine an old 90s V12 or modern V6 car with 1000+BPH with slicks, DRS and no restrictions, unmatched speeds
Well Aidan is on the Indycar train & I am all in for it
I do wonder how much a slipstream would help
Since he seems to be aero-limited, I bet it would help by a noticeable amount.
in terms of setup, I'm surprised you didn't both raise the ride height and set the suspension to have negative rake; eitiher/both, depending on the american oval series in question, were part of the setup characteristics that would be utilized to increase top speed.
Note that when when NASCAR deregulated the ride heights for superspeedways, teams ran as low as they could , but would set up the rear to where at speed, the rear suspesion would bottom out, because spoiler closer to the free stream of air means even more drag.... meanwhile in Indycar, cars run fairly high in qualifying on superspeedways, and would also regularly run with negative rake for the top speeds (which contributed to a lot of the crazier oval crashes you saw in both CART and in Indycar, especially with the IR-05s...) because working the diffuser for downforce purposes meant more drag...
Also I recall the active suspension Williams doing the negative-rake high-ride-height thing on straights.
*sees 264 miles an hour*
brain.exe has stopped working
Two words.
REVIVE CART.
Thanks again adian another great video sir, feel better man 😀
Now I'm really curious as to what Penske's 2004 monster 500i-powered car would do for VMax.
1994
lift the ride height these cars have large underbodies producing large amounts of downforce lifting the car will reduce downforce/drag or infact lift the front compared to the rear ;)
1.) 1999 we were reving our engines to around 16.2k…(Cosworth XD’s)
2.) the engines produce maximum power at maximum rev’s.
Felt like Captain Picard on that ride. Mostly 'cause I was hoping the 4 would become a 5.
FOUR. LIGHTS!
Others have said it but ill add mine.
1) next up Group C "monsters" vmax
2) same 3 cars on the VW Ehra-Lessien test track? Id guess the track is smoother so it might help maybe Idk. If its even in assetto corsa.
lowering the car (should) make the undertray work better giving you more downforce. Thus slowing you down
Thank you for using Greg Moore
NOW we’re asking the real questions
CART was amazing.
Many years ago I was talking with a PacWest engineer (well a former one) who stated at tracks like Fontana/Michigan, they'd gear for 250/260 when going flat out at those tracks, for context. Pacwest from 95 to 2002, so right in the ballpark for this car. That's 250/260 in race trim, so in the draft, but I've a feeling 240-250 was achieveable. I've seen it said somewhere De Ferran in 2000 hit the low to mid 250s at points during his record lap, and...of course...the speed traps at Indy in 1994 were insan when the Penskes came flying past
In 1994, Fittipaldi hit 247 on the backstretch at Indy. That was powered by the MB Monster. DeFerran probably could have set a land speed record at Bonneville with that thing he had.
De Ferran said he was catching wheelspin in 4th and I think even 5th gear on that run
O'Dor, Rosemeyer, Behra.... all three were killed here.
love a afternoon nap feel better soon
1930s top speed focused racing when people were like stuffing what were effectively airplane engines into primitive racing chassis was just fucking bonkers.
I wonder if we brought that back and started throwing in like commercial turboprop engines into cars that make like 4,000+ shaft horsepower what would happen!
@@TheTutch Damn, so just like 1930s racing!
May ("Buffeting"), Clarkson ("Power") , you just need a Hammond for the trifecta.
Looking at the skid marks at 4:27 he already did!
"Ooliivaaaahhhh!!!!"
Crashing at 264 probably would have done it. 🤣
All he needs to do, is crashing hehehehe
Open up a telemetry app and find out if you really are bottoming. It looks like the setup page allows for greater suspension travel through the "travel range" option, so maybe soften springs and increase travel range.
Too bad Robert Brown never got a shot with Tango Chap Degrassi Racing
You need to try it with a NASCAR Cup car from 2006, over 900hp with a low drag body.
NASCAR has WAAAAAY more frontal area, though. They rarely get much higher than 200 on the same tracks Indycars are going 230+.
@@jsquared1013 yes the frontal area is bigger on a Cup but it has lower drag than an Indycar due to the exposed wheels on the Indycar. In 2004 Rusty Wallace tested an unrestricted Cup car at Talladega which has way shorter straights than Avus hitting a top speed of 228 mph. His crew chief said if they would've change the gearing it could've done 235 mph.
@@willracer1jz At stock car DID hit that number, Road & Track did a top speed shootout between a Stock Car and a Porsche 962 GTP back in the late 80's. They went to the 7.5 mile transportation centers test track in Ohio were the Porsche maxed out in the high 220's using group C LeMans body work, Road America (shorter than optimal) gearing and a sick engine. The Stock Car hit 240 with the grill taped up, that was with a engine rated at 650 HP.
@John Jones awesome I'll have to look up the article, thank you.
Hope you recover soon, we need you back at full fitness.
😀👍
You need to try "The Beast" in a Penske, it's got at least an extra 300hp.
Love this…but a bit of constructive criticism. The car is a good 1100 rpm off the redline in 6th gear when you hit top speed, meaning you only have 890-920 hp rather than the full 960 that qualifying boost provides. As a general rule when you hit top speed you want to be about 100 rpm off the redline in top gear. I reckon that if you lowered the gears a little so that you hit top speed at 14,800-14,900 rpm (redline is 15,000) you could potentially even reach 270 mph, as you would have another 40-60 hp. Still, faster than a Veyron with less power is really impressive.
I have an idea. Modern Indy at Adelaide Street circuite, or at Calder Park Thunderdome.
I genuinely have trouble going full whack around banked corners around that even in sim races.
It's almost like it's TOO immersive and my common sense is kicking in
The sound is identical to the mid 90's IndyCar PC game I had......graphics are are a whole other issue, though...
first Corner: Oversteered
haha this could be me
2 for 2, about to get some sleep then i get the notification. however i've been wondering about the avus Vmax part 2 electric boogaloo. can we get group C Vmax eventually?
You are a king
Engage ludicrous speed!
They’ve gone to plaid!
I just kept flying over the banked turn so I just did monza oval instead 😭
2:49
Good riddance! Get well soon, my Mate! Love your videos!
Try this with slipstream 10x and with another CART car or Koenigsegg One in front. I've achived 404kmh wiht the Ferrari 2004 and 425kmh with the Sauber C9.
Wasn't someone killed during a BTCC round there and that's one of the reasons it's closed, or am I getting mixed up with something else?
Great video either way! 👍
I just checked and it was Keith O'dors who was killed in 1995 during the BTCC round at the Avus
I recall seeing footage of a mid-90s DTM race there where they had a first-lap traffic jam at the hairpin, which caused a huge delay but no injuries
@@theocousins6386 Just double checked it was Keith O'dors. Thought it was a Primera but had to go back and double check
Front engined F1 cars. What would it take to make one competitive today?
Indycars , save for the Beast, ran faster around only 2 miles of Michigan then the 2.5 miles of Indy from the layout and higher banked corners. Best thing to do for a real test? Daytona or better yet, Talledega.
What's the F1 video on Avus? Do t find it
ruclips.net/video/5rdmsshjROc/видео.html
> Drives on german Track
> "It's very 1930's here"
wait...
Imagine an Indy/F1 car on a short dirt oval 🤔
lame
Ah yes, 150 laps of understeer
3:33
Keith O'dor - 1995?!
Maybe if you raise the front end a bit compared to the rear end you could get more speed
I know absolutely buttons about all this alt reality sim stuff as I’m old as fuck…but see if there is a way that you can jerry rig a 90’s Indy car to run on toluene at 5 bar boost and test again for comparison purposes…
Aidan - You’re not gettting aggressive on the banked curve to start the lap. Tyre wear isn’t a issue for peak speed, so could you not just stay high on the banking, pick a spot, dive in and just beef it, taking advantage of the gradient? A la Valentino Rossi? The car then uses the compression of the banking. The tyres obviously get shredded but they are not the issue here, and all those last bits of energy count.
I was waiting to see it go full speed on the wall of death, and then you just didn't do it every single time you approached it
Best to run the engine at low revs for a while after the max run -- just so the GPU doesn´t melt....
Doesn't negative camber increase rolling resistance
less of the tyre in contact with the road in a straight line, and more in the corners.
@@AidanMillward Camber also introduces more tyre deformation = heat = friction, the effects could be negligible but what I can find on the subject, its found to increase rolling resistance. But depend how the game simulates it.
...Go Karts around Monaco...
Umm... Ground effect. Downforce = drag. Perhaps a couple of clicks up on the ride height would make things faster?
I just come here for the music...
Is there some reason you didn't use 6th gear on the second run?
You need a draft
CART was never as fast as F1. But nothing looked as good. F1 should ditch the top-mounted air intakes ASAP. Although with the halo device on the car, it would still spoil the lines.
I don’t think the cars are designed with Andrew WC’s feelings in mind. They’re designed to go as fast as possible rather than look good.
@@AidanMillward yeah, but they should be. 😬
take a gen 4 nascar thats 1992-2006 a gen 5 car thats 2008-2013 a gen 6 thats 2014 to 2021 and the new gen 7 all to le mans i want to know their top speeds
Maxed out your caster? Friggin pain pills.
I don't care about hitting 265mph, what I care about is hitting 400kph, which the car easily did, both here and in reality.
Why stop at 400 when you can hit 426?
What about... HOW FAST COULD A 90S LE MANS CAR GO?
265 is easy if you actually set up suspension
Maybe higher ?
218 mph in 3rd gear hahahaa
High on pain killers? Very 1930s but do please take care of yourself.
He's just simulating 1930's. He'd have to be in a real car to go full 1930.
That view is hilarious. Absolutely zero sense of speed.
Sense of speed is a lie.
@@AidanMillward Ok, mate
Do you still live at your mums house? 🤨😂
no, this is my flat.
@@AidanMillward Sorry fella only messing with you