Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Doran Martell | Doubt the Gout
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Part 5 of our analysis on Doran Martell. Title inspired by a comment from Adam Gray
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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The fantastic title for this video was inspired by a hilarious comment by Adam Gray in one of our livestreams...#DoubtTheGout...give him the love he deserves
Seeing as you know IOIAF, what if you did a collab-ish thing where you try to debunk their ideas, in good faith of course.
I enjoyed the title too
Are you guys planning a live stream soon? I unfortunately missed the last one : (
I got an ad during this video for a medicine called urcinal for Gout inflammation.....this RUclips algorithm is really something. LMFAOOOOOOOO
Kiana Ingram Lol same.
Oh lawd! 😂😂😂 that is rich
Just happened now
You guys are my favorite ASOIAF lore channel. You've convinced me that the Andals are terrible people, reinforced my hatred for Catelyn Tully, and made me believe Jon Snow is Ashara Dayne's son. I also enjoy the focus on abstract topics that most lore channels overlook. Dorne is really interesting in the books, and I hate that most show watchers will never understand its characters and plots.
Mountain Fox - their maegor the cruel and 'grey squirrel' maester vids blew me away.
I totally get them now.
Ok now I'm doubting the gout .
This makes me realize (EVEN MORE THAN PREVIOUSLY) how manipulative Doran is of his own children - for ex, his “pain-staking” standing up to say goodbye to Arienne, makes her very emotional & motivated; he moved her like a chess piece! This man is dark.
I agree, the calculated way he thinks and acts is bone-chilling.
Child of Persia
Doran has achieved the impressive feat of being a worse father than Tywin Lannister.
While I agree, that Doran is rather ruthless and very emotionally manipulative even towards his own family I wouldn't necessarily agree that he is a worse father than Tywin. At least not when it comes to the well-being of his children. Yes, he manipulates Aryanna and Quentyn, seemingly without any qualms, but I don't think he inflicted the level of emotional and physical damage on them that Tywin subjected his children, especially Tyrion, to.
@@thelioness8991
He's not overtly abusive as Tywin was but he has placed both Arianne and Quentyn in great danger without any adequate justification (unless you regard his pursuit of a blood feud as justified).
I don't disagree, I just think that if you compared who fucked up his children worse it'd have to be Tywin. I also think he doesn't shy away from putting his children in grave danger. He put Tyrion and his clansmen in the front for the battle of the Green Fork, clearly hoping or at least accepting that Tyrion would die.
*Me when I see the title of a new GH video* "Their theory sounds whack this time!" *Me after 20 minutes of cold Vulcan logic set forth* "Pass the Kool Aid!!!"
Man.... the asoiaf community has been so wrapped up in the Starks and Targaeryns, but you guys have cornered the market on the Martells. This series should make the non believers reconsider their theories.
Cornered is strong words bc Preston.
BUT I am so happy that TOtGH gave me something new to think about while I reread book 4 & 5!
@@vanessaamesty6739 especially Tyrrell. Logically they should be the strongest house in Westeros. That they aren't precived as such means they must have problems with their Bannermen.
I think when the winds of winter is released we're gonna get allot of missing history behind the Lannisters and perhaps Casterly. Something tells me they are a missing piece to first man history.
@@lvd8122
Yep. There are hints that Randyll Tarly will betray them (as he did in season 7 of the show, itself a pretty big hint).
@@alanpennie8013 I know you wrote this two years ago, but if you recall, could you explain the hints that Randyll Tarly will betray House Tyrell? Or maybe just point me to where I can find them
the fake gout is a scare tactic. in Star Wars Sidious' used his deformity as a pitty tactic and to further demonize the Jedi
Haha so true. I was picturing Palpatine crying "Please don't kill me. I am so weak" and then smiling once Windu is dead, when watching the video.
#MartellForSithLord
Doran in Book 7: UNLIMITED POWAHHHHHHH while shooting lightning to kill Drogon
I also considered that this might be a discrepancy on GRRM’s part - BUT the dissonance between documented gout symptoms and Doran’s behaviors is so large - that it can’t be a mistake. He’s putting heavy blankets on top of gout? Oh hell no!
I found your brother’s experience with gout the most convincing argument
This is a theory I've had for awhile. Pomegranates are a natural cure for gout and they are abundant in Dorne. Great video
Maybe that means Bowen Marsh is gonna kill him.
I always thought it was weird he could do anything with the way his gout is described. He would have to drink milk of the poppy like the mountain did I would think. I like this theory.
Can't wait to see what you guys come up with for exactly why a man who seems so capable and cunning, would seemingly be killing off his own family and allies.
Same reason as Tywin with his family, they're both able to plot and scheme effectively but their families don't act how they want them to because they simply don't understand their own children as people.
lol, he's swollen to the size of those fruits. it doesn't mean there's a melon sized deposit
yeah. "one of his knees was an apple, the other a melon". That just means that one knee hasn't swelled while the other has swelled alot.
They really should have done more with him in the show. The casting was perfect, and he is such an enigmatic character. Having the sand snakes betray him was a bad way to end him and poor use of a character that will likely have more to do in the books. He won't be at the end game, but he will make it interesting while he lives.
Agreed. Fantastic actor, botched the Dornish subplots and gave him nothing to work with
I may not like the man, but he's dangerous af. "Who fears the grass?"
Bring me that clarity!!
What an insightful and original theory. And wouldn‘t it make sense for the brother of the Red Viper to use poisons as a defence mechanism?
Anyway, I can‘t wait to see more being revealed about Doran. He seems to be set up as one of the major players (along with Varys, Littlefinger, Bloodraven) but so far his actions seems confusing at best and self-destructive at worst.
I really hope we get to see more of the mind and plans of Doran Martell come TWoW. One of the most underestimated characters of the series, both in- and out-of-universe!
It's not easy being Green...Hand
Maybe he uses a very well practiced glamour.
Definitely possible
I’m so glad you made this video! We all have been waiting since the live stream! I have always doubted the gout, with all the spices they eat in Dorne, he shouldn’t be so sick, thank you and we are all waiting for the next stream!
I was just about to comment but you said exactly what I am thinking!🙌
Sunshine Roth right? Turmeric is great for gout and I’m sure they eat that in Dorne, and peppers and spices in general...... Doran keeps sending his family to this impossible missions, got 2 killed already and I hope Arianne doesn’t have the same fate of her uncle ..... there are those who believe that poor Quentyn is still alive, but I doubt it, even though doesn’t hurt to hope for the best!
I watched this while realizing that I was Doran-ed myself. I literally skipped sections of his description because it was so uncomfortable to picture and said outloud 'why does George have to make it so graphic?' so this is why. I am sold on this guys. Great job.
Done with classes for the week, and now there's another Order of the Green Hand video, my day just keeps getting better lol
Let's give a big Green Hand...
Good one!
I’ve always, always, doubted the gout.
smart man Gurt
I agree with M'lady's brother. My husband has left work sick exactly 2 times in 6 years. The first time ever was for a gout attack (the second time he passed out and I had to take him to get a head CT). This is a former army infantry officer who has had to have an iv on the job for dehydration and then went back to work...Also, his gout reminds me of Littlefinger and Varys' strategies...no one is afraid of them, so no one perceives them as a threat...
And here I thought you guys forgot about Doran the deceiver 😉
You guys are the best! 💚✋🏽
As someone who also experiences gout flare-ups once every few years, I can say that even the most minor inflammation can make someone tickling your foot with a feather feel like they're holding a lighter to it instead. It's clear that someone in Doran's condition would not be able to stand.
BTW I love the phrase "arthritis on steroids" because steroids are usually the first-line treatment for arthritis : ) Seriously though, great video...I'm anxiously awaiting the next Ironborn video (or whatever your next video is going to be about).
I used to care for a woman who had occasional gout flare ups in her toes with no tophi. She absolutely could not stand when she had a flare up. I had to use a mechanical lift to transfer her when she had a gout flare up. I had to use a specially designed frame to keep her blankets off of her feet when she was in bed. This woman was TOUGH and never complained, even after she had a major surgery that did not go well and resulted in a serious infection and A LOT of pain. But her gout flare ups would leave her in tears and absolutely inconsolable. The only things that sort of helped were the prescriptions for gout and doses of dilauded (a heavy duty opioid painkiller), and even then she was in a tremendous amount of pain and couldn't stand up.
Before seeing the video. His diseases reminds me of lord manderly. Brave men die in war. Smart men use thier weakenness to thier advantage to not die in war but instead use it to be safe and plan while everyone is out in war
I think he's based on genies and the gout is like his bottle which he uses to fool others to think they're in control
I have this scene in my head: there will be some battle in the next books, maybe Aegon vs the Lannisters or something, and then out of nowhere, the Dornish army arrives to join the war and at their head sits Doran, armored, on a horse and leads them into battle. Everyone is shook.
Listening to this while typing away at work. Many thanks to the Order of the Green Hand. Cant wait for Winds of Winter when Doran stands up and goes full water dancer on us.
Now there are potential explanations for all this, perhaps, varying from "painkillers" to "magic" to "Martin didn't know what he was talking about", buuuuut this is pretty convincing. Though there are plenty of reasons to pretend to have gout. Always ways to mess with potential enemy's minds. Quite clever.
So I wonder how Doran would look to Aria, after all she has no difficulty looking at unpleasant things (she kissed a skull and ate a worm out of the eye socket is just the first example that comes to mind) and was taught to "look with her eyes" I believe the quote was from Syrio Forel.
I’m at about the same stage as your brother with gout. He’s spot on about the bed sheet thing. And when I first read the stuff about Doran’s gout I said, “That’s bs, if he had gout there is no way he’d be doing all that.” Glad y’all put this video together, it’d even be good for someone who doesn’t care about aSoIaF but knows someone with gout and wants to understand a little more about it.
we were a little nervous about this video because we don't have the medical backgrounds to really explain it, which is why it took us so long to make it because we were trying to read all these medical journals to wrap our minds around it...her brother came over for dinner a few weeks back and we had that conversation with him, which then gave me the idea to bother my friend about it too, and after talking to them, we felt pretty confident we could pull this video off
The grass quote is one of my favorites. And I would always tie the Art of War in when trying to explain Doran to book/show readers. I’ve been waiting to see what Doran is up to. Loved this video
Doran is a raging opioid addict, fuelling his mad and erratic plot while allowing him to stand temporarily.
That's what you'd need for the first stages. Doran needs a pact with the devil.
Opioids help with the pain caused by gout, and the best thing to treat the inflammation is colchicine, which is made from the crocus plant. Doran must be on the Westerosi version of heroin if he's able to stand in such a condition. I wonder if refining milk of the poppy would be something taught in the Citadel : )
@@PBRStreetgang
Highly likely. I imagine they are faced with many conditions where pain management would be the best they could hope to do
And here I thought that The Mountain was the raging opiate addict of Westeros, always drinking that milk of the poppy, lol.
@@KayleeCee Why can't there be several. In case you weren't aware Heroin, Morphine, "Milk of the Poppy" all take away pain and make you feel good. Why would only one person succumb to such temptation of feeling no pain?
My grandfather suffered from serious gout. He was numbing the pain with alcohol (also the cause of it) and when it got so serious they had to take him to hospital and he sobered out, it was completely unbearable and he passed away very soon after.
Even while he was trying to be self-reliant and tried not to talk about his pain all the time, you could always see how much he was suffering and how difficult was it to move...
What I'm trying to say is YOU'RE RIGHT!
Thanks. Sorry about your grandfather
I'm sorry for your loss and I am also sorry that your grandfather's last days were spent in such a painful manner. They could have done better for him.
(I deleted my multiple paragraph rant, lucky you!)
Thank you guys. I appreciate that. Thanks for being an amazing group of people with whom I'm not afraid to share a personal story.
Ludmila. No problem. We appreciate you guys too. We have the best subs, to the point where we feel comfortable sharing a bit of our personal lives with you guys
Ooooo boy, Christmas must have come early again, because I just got another Order of the Green Hand video!! It's even about Dorne! Look at me, commenting before watching the video. I just couldn't resist sending a little love your way! Thank you @The Order of the Green Hand for always providing me with something of quality to fill the void of time with!
Love and Respect!
thank you
When Doran finally reveals his full hand of cards, metaphorically speaking and sides with Aegon, faeces will hit the fan. Love the video, your effort is appreciated!
Once again you made my week. Been having a lot of troubles lately with mental issues. It's nice to have something to take my mind off of everything. Thank you.
Glad we could help. These things pass. It probably doesn’t feel that way when you’re in the middle of it but give it a little time and things turn around
We need some "Doubt the Gout" shirts.
They’re coming soon
It would make better sense to supply foodstuffs with that motif. A stroganoff with heavy cream for our lady, and beef wellington for the gentleman. Dessert will be dairy ice cream and cheesecake. To drink we will offer port. A gallon of port. Just guzzle it.
This reminds me of the plot of The Prestige (spoiler - if you haven't still watched for the past 10 years or so). What if Doran and Oberyn have been playing everyone all this time and are really, somehow, one and the same person? Or have been switching back and forth? That would be one helluva plot twist.
I mean that would involve some Tupac level of death faking. Considering the whole mountain cracking his head open like an egg.
Alastair Bond True. But who’s head got cracked: Oberyn or Doran playing Oberyn?
Why does your brother look like “show Euron”? 😂 Love it!!!
because that's what her brother looks like
Maybe he could have done a better job than shitty showEuron!
@Jethro Torczon But he looks nothing like Euron
I hope you guys one day explain the boltons back story and thier history. I would love to hear everything about thier history anf why they clash with the stark so much.
The dread fort is ridiculously close to winterfell
I think the physical state of the Lord of Dorne is meant to mirror the current status of Dorne itself. Most of the goudt affects Doran’s LEGS- the source of MOBILITY. What do we know about the mobility of Dorne’s armies? Well, they don’t have a navy after Nimeria burned all their ships. So Dorne’s “sea legs” are destroyed and ruined. Just my two cents.
The hashtag that shook The World of Ice and Fire #DoubtTheGout
Thanks for more EXCELLENT and thought provoking content!
thank you for watching Ser
The Dude sounds straight forward and to the point. I was respecting him before you mentioned he is a Fireman. So I agree, absolute legend.
I wasn't doubting the gout before this video. Now i am
Maaaaaan! I was just about to eat lunch while I watched this. Thanks for helping me start my diet 🤢
At first I was really drawn in reading about the gout. I thought this R. Martin guy is quite the writer. But then I think I began to wise up a bit as this R. Martin seemed to be going to great lengths to describe this condition, causing readers as well as most characters to feel sorry for him.
And that's when it hit me. Look back to when Maester Pycelle had a session with Roz or one of Baelish's other ladies and afterward he stands up straight and kind of limbers up a bit. Then before he heads out to interact with anyone and everyone, he slouches down again and really puts on a show of moving very slowly.
Maybe Doran really does have gout...to some degree. Bad as it's described in the books? Hmm. Either way its a ruse and one created to go about plotting his retribution in as unassuming manner as possible. If his enemies dismiss him as a weak, fragile enemy they might also underestimate him and be caught totally unawares of his strike when it comes.
He puts on such a show of it so that word would spread far and wide. Spread through the walls, under the floor so that anyone's little birds would tell tales of how weak and infirm Doran is. Hopefully inspiring dismissal and underestimation.
How come Elia is related to this family?? Who was her father? Bless his soul that man must be an angel or something!
one could say the same about sweet Myrcella or even Tommen, I guess even in wicked families can be good souls
@@VictoriaTraducciones but everyone is House Martell seems seems bad except the children. Lannisters are better imo, they have Kevan, Tygett and Gerion, Joanna and maybe even Gemma and Lancel. Only bad apples are Tywin and his children, rest of family seems normal enough.
I love your work guys!
Edit: I remember there were mafia guys who faked illess during their trials. Nice catch!
So do you think it is a glamour or a costume? And whichever you think, is he getting help or applying it himself? There is someone there he trusts enough with this--but whom? He has a wife he is "estanged" from, purportedly returned to Norvos.
Speaking of "purport", the word seems to fit him even better than it would Varys.
Either one is an option. It could even be a combination of the two. We think he probably does it himself. He doesn’t seem to trust anyone
I'm a chemist and not a doctor. AFAIK, gout is the salt of uric acid. Uric acid is very poorly soluble in water, but when it combines with e.g. calcium it precipitates and becomes pretty much impossible to dissolve again (unless you use some chemicals that would do you in too). Especially Calcium salts are very good at forming needle like structures that cause puncture wounds and pretty much act like like glass shards causing inflammation everywhere...
Side-note: AFAIK, most carnivores cannot develop gout as they don't produce uric acid.They remove excess ammonia from proteins by other means, which causes them to smell strongly, in particular their urine and if I'm not mistaken makes several carnivores inedible to us (would damage our kidneys if we tried).
Really interesting theory but how would Doran fake his physical appearance? And on top without even Hotah knowing about it? Seems like that would be almost impossible. I do think you're right and he isn't as weak as he wants people to think he is but the logistics of the whole thing are just unclear to me.
EDIT: Sometimes I forget this is a fantasy novel with magic so yeah ... he could've glamoured himself. :D
☺
Yess!! Well done. And Varys being NO Eunuch. I really expect that.
I've had my first gout episode about 4 years ago. Only happens on one joint (left big toe), and it is true that at it's maximum gout is excruciatingly painful. You can't walk (can hardly put a sock on, can't put shoes on), and truly, just the weight and friction of bed sheets is very painful. However, even though i have gout, and i can attest that the pain is incredible, i find it hard for me to judge someone else. Maybe he is more pain-resistant, maybe his willpower is stronger than mine. Maybe his pain receptors don't work as well as a regular person anymore.
That said, the "doubt the gout" theory seems strong. Hard to think that anyone with such advanced gout could press anything into someone else's hand, or move his wheelchair himself.
When the Green uploads a video. Yeap I am putting off whatever I have going on for the next 3 hrs so I can watch and rewatch and rewatch and rewatch again. To make sure I got it all. Then rewatch one more time just for the hell of it.
I like where your head's at
That was really good, but will we be getting into how he pulls the gout deception off in a future video? Maybe it's really him and he's hooked on Milk of the Poppy, or it's not even him and he uses a glamour or faceless men magick to disguise this? But great work as always and I'm sorry I'm chiming in so late this time!
when he decides to act, nobody will see him coming...except Arya after what Syrio had taught her, but i cant see them crossing paths...
I have always considered Doran's gout as a nod to the gout that Henry VIII was said to have suffered later in his life. H8 was once active and viral and was later considered somewhat crippled because of his health. Some of H8's medical problems could be misdiagnosed based on medicatl knowledge at that time of history, and so it's hard to look at our knowledge of gout today and what is described as gout 500 years ago. Gout itself is not deadly, although it can cause side effects that could effect quality of life and lead to eventual infections or shut down of kidney's, if r/t uric acid kidney stones. Having been a registered nurse for 12 years, I have seen gout in all many stages and many joints. Yes, painful, but I will say that an acute flair is different than a person who suffers chronic effects. In most cases of pain, acute pain is much more difficult to tolerate, while chronic pain is easier to tolerate because people adjust to it. That might sound crazy, but it's the case, as far as I have seen in my years of practice. Doran might have felt his first flairs in a much different way than he currently does, based on years of tolerance. BTW, I hope your brother is taking medications to lessen the uric acid in his body, and also watching his diet. Food is a large trigger for gout. I think that might be an interesting way to look at Doran's gout, does he eat a high fat, rich diet that would contribute to his gout? Rich meats, red meats, shellfish, pasta, etc are all contributors to gout! Some if the best foods, in my opinion!
The tophi that you describe could dislocate a joint, but might not, either. Also, the area of redness and swelling around a tophus could be much bigger than the actual tophus. We are also basing some of these descriptions on unreliable narrators, who might be more grossed out and inflating what they see in relation to their effect. Often I have looked at infections to wounds that people nearly puke to look at, but medically, those site infections could be much, much worse, and I just shrug at them. Yup, you need some Keflex!
However, I will agree that currently, people who suffer from gout are usually taking medications that have only been developed within the last hundred years or so, so in our current medical practice, I have never seen gout to the extent that GRRM describes it in Doran. It would be painful! But if you are focused on revenge, could you set aside some pain to work on your goal of vengeance? I think so. Could Doran be lying and trying to pull a fast one, absolutely, but I am not sure that he is lying about the gout.
When comparing Doran to Illyrio's physical description, I find there is much more to doubt in Illyrio pulling a fast one. But GRRM could be playing the same game with both characters, but to me, that seems a bit melodramatic and overdone. Perhaps Illyrio is the real deal while Doran is the fake!
I would also have to say I think you have put more research into gout that GRRM ever has, and I applaud you for that. Some how I picture him doing research with a 30 year old set of encyclopedia's instead of the internet, then typing on his ancient computer using only the index fingers of each hand! I could be wrong, certainly! Another thing to consider is that we get the majority of descriptions of Doran's illness not only through unreliable narrator's, but when GRRM was most likely lost in his own plot and story. He is still lost, I think.
I do think the video raises some interesting questions, and points out some possible anomalies to consider when looking at Doran. He might very well be able in the process of fooling everyone around him, even Areo who he see's daily, and his own daughter. Doran certainly seems driven, although I am not sure if he is seeking vengeance for his sister's murder, freedom for Dorne, or the Iron Throne for himself. That is my biggest issue with Doran, he is unclear to me and so are his motives!
This is how I look at GRRM's descriptions of swords in this story. Long sword, bastard sword, great sword, etc! His definitions (and he gives them to us in great detail) don't necessarily fit what sword experts would acknowledge in the real world, now or in history. In the end, the only thing that matters is what GRRM says is so in his world. So, perhaps in GRRM's world, Doran has painful and debilitating gout but can still manage to stand occasionally and fiddle with a cyvasse piece with more dexterity than seems possible.
However, as I am in a question everything mode these days, I say why not look closely at these questions that we have. I am just starting another Feast reread, so I will be paying more attention to Doran!
I don't want to sound like a crazy lady but I read a post about Summerhall and Rhaegar's birth and they were thinking if Rhaegar is son of Duncan and Jenny instead? We know Jenny survived Summerhall and Rhaella had seven+ miscarriage, stillbirth and infant deaths between Rhaegar and Viserys. Gilly says a mother that abandone her son is cursed and Jenny is said to dance with her ghosts. This would also explain why Rhaegar loved Summerhall and his connection to Ghost of High Hall. I would love to be more tinfoiled than that. What if Jenny was a descendant of Alys Rivers and Aemond the One Eye? Alys was pregnant when Aemond died and she was in Harrenhall. She is a greenseer (?) that sees the future in fires, clouds and pools that's a powerful seer actually. And we never learn what happened to her or her children. If Aemond/Alys > Jenny and Jenny/Duncan> Rhaegar and Rhaegar/Lyanna > Aegon we have one heck of a talented seer/warg combo roaming Westeros now. I am going nuts without TWOW. I am also thinking if it is possible Aerion's son Maegor was taken in by House Dayne as his grandmother was Dyanna - maybe Gerold is his descendants? There are so many loose ends to Targ family it is so frustrating.
I think Dyanna Dayne is quite important in here. Her blood might be: it might be the true dragonblood. Targaryens were unable to hatch dragons for decades and when Dayne bood came in line all of a sudden the Ts were 100% certain dragons will hatch again. That is why I firmly believe that Dany is Asharas and Rhaegars daughter. Lyanna and Rhaegar though never happened in my opinion.
@@asharadaynedragonblood1803 OMG never! I don't want anyone near Ashara in any circumstances if this man isn't Ned fucking STARK. We are told so many times Ashara and Ned were in love it will be pointless if they had no connection. And R/Ashara could happen without any secrecy whatsoever because if Aerys racist ass can tolerate a marriage between Elia and Rhaegar he would accept purple eyed Ashara better. Dayne's have no dragon blood they are first men. But it is interesting it is all Maekar's children that had dragon dreams with the exception of Daemon Blackfyre who also had visions.
@@allyriastark3508 Well I am very sure that Ned and Ashara and all these rumors DO indeed have a great role to play. It is the key secret I think. Dany is so often mentioned being connected to Rhaegar and looking like Ashara and being connected to the colour purple that I counted 1+1 together. Aerys did not like Dornish. Martin already promised we will learn more abourt Arthurs relationship towards Aerys, so I guess Aerys did not trust any Dayne. Ashara was right there. No matter what, Ned got extremely angry or hurt by Ashara. That is why he forbid her name. Ned, Ashara, Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur, Jon and Dany, and Young Griff are all somehow in a great secret.
@@allyriastark3508
They may have non - Targaryen dragon blood. There are hints of dragons in Westeros during the Age of Heroes. The TV spin - off may provide more information about this.
@@alanpennie8013 possible. And I want to talk about Dyanna Dayne more - her sons were also problematic, Daeron had dragon dreams and become drunk, Aerion had dragon dreams and drank wildfire, Aegon had dragon dreams and Summerhall happened, even Aemon had dragon dreams and talked about Rhaegar about the prophecy. We don't know about her daughters though Rhae said to practice sorcery and made a love potion for Aegon. Things don't seem to be blind for an Allyria/Aegon union.
I have pretented to be badly injured to lure my enemy closer and to make him drop his guard. It worked, and im going to do it again the next time in a similar situation.
Wow... this is something I never even thought about. This is insane.
Wow.
Could it be pseudogout? My grandpa has it and it has similar presenting symptoms to gout but is caused by fluid buildup in joints rather than crystals
He pretends so when Elaria Sand pulls a dagger on him he can beat the shit out of her and the Sandsnacks.
exactly
Sandsnacks.
Awesome vid! Really connected dots from the books. Well formed argument backed w observations that give weight to the theory
If you have gout tophi of that size, you can't stand or move your legs but it sounds to me that GRRM doesn't know what gout does to one's body. My brother has gout on both of his legs and his flares make him bed ridden from 2 weeks to a month. Poor guy can't even kneel anymore.
Yes, I was waiting for this. I want more on Doran Martell.
Welcome back to the Wolf's Den...
fantastic as always you guys. im on my second pass through the books and just got to book IV. i've never considered doran's gout to be some sort of ruse. it will be a very interesting read through with this idea in mind.
the devil's in the details as usual with GRRM
Is it possible to find Order of the Green Hand in podcast form? Id love to listen to you guys while at work.
If Doran actual suffered from this level of gout. He would have over dosed on pain killers by now. Or started a war before now, as all the pain. Would have made him start to go crazy.
I really love this one, well done!!!!!
Office is still closed to the public so me and my headphones get another listen through the playlist.
You guys always brighten up my day
Doran "Dr Harrison Wells" Martell. Could be. Depends whether Doran becomes a major villain in the third act of this series.
You should bring this up when you talk with Preston!.. and Carmine!
#DoubtTheGout
I would really love it. With Preston's almost zealous anti-magic stance, I'd like to see how he thinks it could be portrayed. Probably a lot of theatre troupe make-up, power of suggestion, and some sort of applied mental link. For my part, I've yet to be convinced either way on whether there's magic in this realm.
Kreegalo...does the fact that George has repeatedly said that there is magic make you lean one way or the other?
Unlike most of his carefully worded, well, ANYTHING, he seems to have a great lack of concern over the differences with "sci-fi" properties and magic properties, often confusing, conflating, and interchanging the two. I'm not an apologist for one side or the other. I'm instead taking the strict scientific approach and saying, "I don't know". Perhaps the next volume will provide enough to convince me one way or the other.
What makes it so tough in this series is that so many true players in the story are clearly the best bullshit artists ever. Thopse who we would view as an exception are also delusional, so who knows?
he called the birth of Dany's dragons a "magical and miraculous event"...that seems pretty straight forward to me...he also said "Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical - something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it." in my mind, that ends the debate by itself
I think the book is written in a way where the reader gets to create their own story.. Simple as that
Daaaamn now that's a cliffhanger!
15:15 I wouldn't say that Tyene comes across as sincerely concerned for Doran's health in this scene. Neither does Maester Caleotte, who immediately starts patting down Doran for contact poisons after Tyene leaves.
Good analysis. More than 5+ instances where he does something he shouldn't be able to DOES make it seem intentional on GRRM's part. Great structure to the video as well. The bitmojis are hilarious haha my sisters use them all the time so I can totally see your wife suggesting them 😂😂 it actually goes very well with the video too so props LMAO
Sorry this isn't related but I don't want to lose the thought before the next video. But I was struck to day by the realization that you guys pointed out that winter roses are said only to grow in the glass gardens of winterfell, so how in the seven hells did rheagar get a whole crown of them spontaneously at the tournament at harenhall to give to lyana if it was so damn "Spontaneous?"
Since they’re rare and costly, I’d imagine there was a vendor at the tournament selling them. With a guest list like that, it’d be a perfect place to sell expensive things
Thought I'd got away without a disgusting foot picture...then those hands 🤢
Interesting. Before you got to it, I was wondering, 'what if GRRM has got his facts wrong?' so I'm glad you addressed that.
I've been dying for some clarity and the hospitality of the Wolf's Den. So.. Let's do this!
Awesome video guys!
I have two specific questions I think would do great in a follow up Q&A.
1. So he's been faking it for 3 years. What else has happened 3 years ago to trigger this farse?
2. If he ever shows what he's doing, I believe it will happen in an Pate's Alchemist sort of fashion, where it would be only known to a dying POV character. I believe that is the actual hint to the backstabbings around Doran the Show gave us. That he is going to get up unexpectedly and kill somebody, in a way that it is only revealed to us, the reader. If that's the case, and I know it's a bit of a long shot, who would it be the POV character in Dorne to be backstabbed by Poor Frail Doran?
Thank you guys so much for this video. I have personally doubted his gout for a long time, specially because that was the perfect why Oberyn had to attend Jeffrey's wedding in Doran s place. But those two questions I could never get around. Why 3 years ago, and who's gonna die in order for us to find out. 😱🔪
tell Carmine to get his shit together and let you guys colab with Preston Jacobs!
i have acute gout. When I have flare ups I tell people flat out: "I've been stabbed. The gout hurts worse."
There was one thing that came to mind (and I'm halfway through the video at this point). Is it just possible that George RR Martin simply didn't portray Doran's gout 100% accurate to real-life gout symptoms/capabilities?
Very possible.
Love these people these vids are the best form of media to me !! Better than movies or television series!!! Better than reading them !!
Pretending he can’t walk for three years,without anyone knowing, seems too elaborate a plan
we're talking about a man that took 16 years to set a revenge plot into motion
Maybe he is just a really driven couch potato.
gout is a rich man's disease yet Tywin lacked it completely....why?
Hasan Wilson because he’s no longer rich and Doran is
being a rich man's disease doesn't imply that every rich man has the disease, nor that the richer one is, the more likely one is to have it.
@@logankeen6655 Also, it would appear that Doran has been far more sedentary than most Lords are.
Love the cartoons 💚
Best part of this video by far!
Holy shit, you guys! This is the quality content I subscribe to your channel for.
thank you
Your lady’s brother looks a bit like Euron. Undercover Ironborn, of course he’s tough. “What has gout may never stay lying down but rises again harder and stronger.”
I was a little dubious throughout. Maybe chalking things up to author error/oversight?
Until the Sun Tzu quote, and the "Viper and the Grass" reference...
Oh boy! (",)
Doran also seems to have a glass candle maybe, right? So he knows some magic type stuff. Maybe he knows how to glamor?
#everyoneisglamored
Excellent theory!! Animation was hilariously on point too.
Thank you
Blood oranges are particularly full of purines. Purines cause gout...