You can find my Kill Team: Into the Dark Rules Summary and Reference here: www.orderofgamers.com/games/kill-team/ Also, I forgot to mention it, but you'll have to file off your undercoat and paint on the joins, because the terrain fits very snugly when the plastic is bare, but too tightly when it's painted.
Totally agree about the cognitive load versus benefit. You could easily scrap the equipment for example. They just add minor buffs etc. Also I’m not a massive fan of the tac op cards. Wish Kill team were as simple as Warcry.
Hi Peter. I really like your paint job on the scenery. Looks fantastic. Thanks also for doing a bit of a discussion about the rules. As you mentioned at the beginning of the video it takes a long time to "digest" a GW game. There is assembling and cleaning models/scenery, getting them painted, and then being able to play enough games that you get to the point where you are "full." In the 80s and 90s I feel like we had time to do just that. I'm a little disturbed by the modern GW trend of borrowing the seasonality idea from the video gaming world. Wargames are not video games, people just cannot consume them at the same pace. I really worry about the future of the hobby if they keep pushing this trend. A new giant boxed game costing $200 plus dollars every three months? Talk about drinking from the fire hose. Thanks for the video.
They really are churning out the product at a huge rate these days. But I assume these decisions have been endlessly cost-predicted and forecasted and all the rest of it, with a company GW's size!
The problem seems to be that GW went public, and the ever increasing demand to sell more and more. The consumers are left to poney up more and more of their hard earned money or limit what games they choose to spend their money on. Since their games are so time consuming, they will eventually fail with their current business model, unless they can rapidly grow their consumer base.
@@blkjet117 That did happen in 1994, probably time to move on from it now! 🤣 Every business wants to sell more and more, that's the nature of business - and since their profits have been growing comfortably year to year, I'm not seeing any incentive for GW to change their business model any time soon.
Hey mate, really interesting what you said about the cognitive load and the gameplay worth you get out of the game (around 11 min mark). What board games would you recommend that have nice gameplay, are simple and have cool miniatures? Thanks in advance:)
Oh Greg mate, that's such a huge question with so many variables. I shy away from recommendations, because games are such a personal thing and depend on factors such as theme preferences, level of comfort with complexity, preferences for different styles - the list goes on and on. I really can't just say 'these ones' without establishing a whole lot of parameters, and even then it may just come down to personal likes and dislikes.
Of course! Bought the first edition when it came out and have owned every edition since. Here's an old battle report: ruclips.net/video/F2MU2IG5PfI/видео.html
I very strongly think that it's too much information for too little return. You probably know that I'm an Infinity fan; the cognitive load is staggeringly high, so I don't recommend the game! BUT, Infinity gives you an experience that is not replicated in other games; a feeling that is distinct, and tactical options I find interesting. Kill Team and 40k games are usually breadth, not depth. Rather than having a dozen overcomplicated rules, GW games have hundreds of simple rules. And I think that those simple rules are much harder to remember and less interesting. That's not to say that my favorite games (Infinity, Malifaux, and indie games) are perfect, or that GW games are bad. They're all good in different ways! But I like to play a game that goes "all the way" into what it's trying to do. If you're trying to make a game that's extremely detailed and simulationist, there are great games like "Chain of Command." If you want a board game like experience, there's board games. If you want a complex hero brawler, there's Malifaux or any number of off-the-books games like Guild Ball. If you want story, there are narrative-first games like Grimlite, the 5 Parsecs/5 Leagues series, or other narrative-heavy games like the *Grave games. If you want simplicity, there are games like "One Page Kill Team" which is basic but enjoyable and speedy, and good for youngsters. If you want scale, there are games with smaller miniatures and more "epic" flavor... games which you yourself have covered. 😉 So, with all of these gorgeous games - many of which lets you use your own models - in existence, it's tough to dive in to a game like Kill Team. I feel like I know the setting well enough; if I want to have the flavor and story of the 42nd Millenium, I can use my imagination and their writing, not their rules.
You definite have excellent points, and I do tend to agree. Though I must admit in games like Necromunda, it does seem to translate into a very cinematic game, though I wish they could do the same with less dice rolls and less rules checking! I often wonder if die-hard W40K and AoS players have actually played any other tabletop miniatures games, or if their only experience is Warhammer ones. The bottom line for many people is though, the miniatures really are gorgeous, and a lot of people are absolutely obsessed with the particular flavour of the Warhammer backgrounds. It is great to see them finally shaking up the old rules formula, but I too wish they could do it with less fiddly special abilities.
Hmm between your points, and Peter's mention of necromunda.... I really wonder if GW and their customers wouldnt have been better served by making this a necromunda expansion. I really vehemently dislike KT21. Not that KT 18 was much better in regards to rules opacity, but at least there, like peter mentioned a couple times in the video, the terminology in KT18 wasnt so damned obtuse for no reason at all. Maybe its time for GW to bring back their flash in the pan "Shadow War: Armageddon" rules into contemporary use, which allowed you to play OLD necromunda using various 40k lists. It was restrictive in what could be used, but still a damned sight better than what KT21 has to offer.
@@Colorcrayons But the problem with Necromunda is that it's MORE complicated. I think this version of Kill Team is pretty good, and I like the combat system. It's just the huge amount of special rules, but that's in every GW game (though in Warcry they're a bit more manageable). I'm not sure why you're quite so against this version of KT?
I feel the same way, these are games that I WANT to be good, because the aesthetic/theme and models are of high quality, but then I sit down and play these GW games and they are just severely lacking in terms of depth and interesting tactical/strategic decisions... that turn the tide of battle in your favour. The replay value isn't there because there isn't enough to explore, I like games that have me thinking about them not only whilst playing, but also when I'm not, theroycrafting new strategy's to employ on the battlefield. Games that have interesting combos between models, games that after several hundred plays you are still finding new ways to optimize with the tools at your disposal, games with evolving metas. Once you have experienced games like Malifaux, Infinity, bushido, guildball etc you really cant go back to GW's offerings. I do hope that one day GW hire better rules designers, but why would they feel the need to right now when they are making so much money.... I consider them to be like the AAA publishers of the video game industry, in that they have high production values, large marketing reach, but under the surface there just isn't much substance to their games, certainly not enough to satisfy the more hardcore gamer.
I'm a Kill Team tragic, at the moment, but I find the cognitive load far less than most modern wargames, which is my basis for comparison. Stats on individual team members tend to be pretty similar - they've usually got a single special ability that sets them apart. Remembering ploys takes a bit longer in my experience, but I think that's good for the longevity of the game - as you master it, and remember when to use what ploys, you'll start to feel a sense of accomplishment. I enjoy Kill Team as my favourite "school night game" precisely because it's easy enough (once you've grokked the core rules) to play a game in an hour and a half pretty stress free. It's certainly not something to pick up and play incidentally, and certainly has more learning needed than the average board game. I dunno, different strokes for different folks and all that.
No, I completely understand what you're saying, and the only difference between us is that I play so many games with my limited gaming time that it's hard to devote the time to it that it needs. I imagine if I played it semi-exclusively for a while it would flow a lot easier.
Wow! New Kroot! Its been what...? Over 2 decades since the last major installment of kroot models? If youre a 3rd ed 40k vet, kroot may still seem new, but my god the kroot are old. Peter, I am not a fan of KT21 at all. Do you know of a mini agnostic system that I could install here to supplant the KT21 rules in this set? Especially considering how you remark on how something a bit more elegant would be better? (I happen to also share your taste here, as I am a Warcry proselytizer) I wonder if I shouldnt just use space hulk 1st ed, with genestealer cult rules for the kroot (aliens now being abe to shoot being the main reason that initial thought was triggered)
Well the problem is never replacing the rules, it's replacing the stats and special abilities of the miniatures. I'm a big fan of The Drown Earth rules, the Root would make really good post-apocalyptic tribal dinosaur/human hybrids. :)
Great video as always. Thanks for sharing your opinion on Into the Dark. Kind of wish I bought this one for myself, but I at least have a preorder set of Levithan waiting for me this weekend. :)
Ahh, I do like that 'as always' bit. 🤣 Thanks for your kind words. You'll enjoy Leviathan, I filmed a battle report for a combat patrol game last night and had a hoot!
Great job on painting the terrain. I’m amazed by the volume of minis you can paint. As for the rule complexity issue, if there are too many rules, then player fluency is reduced. That not only leads to frequent rules referencing, but it is hard for a player to understand the threat posed by the other player which can create Gotcha moments.
When I was younger I preferred characters but now I would rather see class types for fighters than individual characters. Brain cells diminishing. So many games, so little time. Boo hoo. Also, $300++ .....sheeesh!
Kill Team is my main game. Tbh, I feel like strategic and tactical ploys, and equipment on top of special abilities of operatives are fine, but Tac-Ops are too much. Completely agree that Kill Team's core mechanics are far better than WH40K.
Thank you, best review I've watched and sooo impressed with your terrain painting skills! I 100% agree with your point about unnecessary layered complexity, it's a big GW problem and I am speaking as an experienced, long-standing player - Warhammer 40,000 is particularly bad at the moment. I've got to the point now that I just use my own rules and my own model datasheets. I also share your annoyance with rounds called 'turning points' and overwatch called 'guard'. My biggest annoyance however is using coloured symbols instead of numbers, that annoys the hell out of me! Anyway, regarding Into the Dark, I feel that the terrain is far better than the game rules deserve, there's so much more that could be done with it. I would make breaching and room clearance a new way to play, with the game specifically designed for the terrain. As it is, it's just Kill Team (with all its flaws) played in a slightly different setting. I already have a huge investment in Zone Mortalis, this has to offer something different.
Hey, that's nice to hear Mike, thanks - tell your friends! 🤣 I think I agree with you, there could have been more space hulk-specific rules to make use of the terrain (though here we are, adding more rules!) - perhaps they'll put more of that in the 3 boxed sets that are yet to come out ...
So, no example or review of the proceduraly generating maps? That's actually the only reason I clicked over to your video. Still a decent presentation though I've no other comparison since this is my first viewing of your channel.
Im with you. Today there are a lot more games avalible, and think people genaraly play more different games, and to have a complex but yet easy system with less stuff to remember or look up all the time is preferable. Its hard to remember all the different game rules and when we pick up a game after it have been on the shelf for a time no one remembers.. 😂😂 maby its because we getin older. 😅
Brilliant overview. I find the system to be very interesting. Like you said though, I wish Games Workshop games didn't have so many small rules that make it difficult to just pick up and play.
Did you have problems with assembling the walls? I have seen other videos where they say it take forever to set them up prior to the game and they connect to firm. One creator even gave the terrain based on functionality 2/5 just because the problems with building the board and the risk of breaking it.
Oh, I meant to mention this, but forgot, I had to file off the paint where the pieces join. Once I'd done that they fit fine. The caps are still a bit too snug, but I haven't filed off the paint there yet. In other words, the bare plastic fit is fine, but if you prime and paint over it you'll have to file that back. Also, be sure to paint the codes on the bottom of each piece to make finding them easier. Giving it 2/5 is just silly!
I'm not sure it is, as GW uses the normal terminology in all their other games. Maybe in this case someone was just trying to be cool and different? Who knows, but it just adds unnecessary confusion I reckon. I also continue to call them rounds, I doubt 'turning point' is going to catch on!
The complexity of the game is a perk. You can play a load of different teams and if the rules were too simple, there wouldn't be the room/flexibility to have teams develop wildly different flavors. As you say, it's a lifestyle game. For the casual player, it's quite a lot. For a lifestyle player, it's a lot of fun.
If you check out my other video on Gallowdark, you'll find a far more detailed look and my personal thoughts on the Kill Team system in general. Cheers!
I think I counted like each real faction have like 30 special rules across its base rules, operative rules, tac ops, ploys, equipment, etc. This is GW design pulled from like 40k where you have a pretty boring low tactics base rules that need these to make the game really have any choices. Kill team though is a modern designed game which has more in common with Deadzone than 40k so has plenty of tactical choices without the need for all those rules. The compendium teams are less complex but are very limited in composition which was a turn off for previous edition players.
I stopped playing Kill Team as soon as I found simpler games like Space Weirdos and Star Breach. That terrain is great though and you made a great job of painting it. I will probably just pick up the terrain and game board.
@@EsotericOrderGamers Both miniatures agnostic rulesets. Star Breach has a free download but I did purchase the book and the dice to support the designer. Space Weirdos is on Wargame Vault. Definitely try them.
I play and think about games a lot, and even I look at the VetGuard and just dread learning all these dude's unique rules. 'S not wrong per sey, but it is a lot to track.
The kill team standard overwatch action is a little strangely named. I think they should have called it something like 'reactive shot'. You are correct that you can use any operative with an engage order that has not yet performed the overwatch action that turning point and is not in close combat (engagement range). This includes your heavy weapon (providing the weapon special rules do not specifically deny the action). It seems odd until you play say Space Marines vs Veteran Guard. Space Marines get 6 operatives where as Veteran Guard get 14 operatives. The Overwatch action not only helps to even out the imbalance in units but it also gives the SM player something to do for the majority of the turning point. Without it, the SM player would spend 60% of the turning point not getting to do anything. Without the overwatch action, teams with large numbers of operatives would have a huge advantage over the smaller kill teams when it comes to objectives and victory points, as once the other player has activated all their operatives they could freely do whatever they want on the board without any counter from the other player.
Interesting. I guess this is compensation for the usual 'buy your team makers with points' method, where sides tend to end up being roughly the same in size, but it does just feel a bit weird getting those extra shots 'for free'. I mean, in 'real life', teams with a large number of operatives *would* have an advantage. I've never seen this done in other games.
@@EsotericOrderGamers I see it as a factor of the firepower the elite teams bring to the board over the non elite teams. The weapon stats of a bolter vs a lasgun don't really reflect the difference in the weapons, but if you factor in that the Space Marine gets to shoot twice thanks to overwatch the Space Marine is much more deadly. Now you need two guardsman to even come close to match the Space Marine in damage potential. In a battle between two evenly matched teams yes the side with the greater numbers has the advantage, but space marines and guardsman are not supposed to be even close to equal
@@templargfx In most cases there would be fewer marines than guardsmen, so you're increasing the strength of the marines to reflect their better weaponry in this example?
@@EsotericOrderGamers Yeah, lasguns are 2/3 and boltguns are 3/4. But more than just the weapons, Space Marines are faster than a Guardsman. Sisters of Battle have boltguns too, but they get 10 units so against Space Marines the bolters still come out more deadly in the hands of the Space Marines thanks to overwatch.
@@templargfx I think I got confused with my last reply. What this system is doing is rewarding the team with the more members, by giving them more shots per round. That doesn't support the idea of a small elite squad of marines with better weapons.
Well, that's maybe going back the other way a little too far! 🤣 But I'd be quite happy to see something like this system or the Warcry system implemented in their big two games.
Did you have issues with the terrain tolerances being too tight making it too hard to breakdown and reassemble into a different configuration?? Ash barker said he had a tonne of problems with his box.
Note my pinned comment above. It's painting them that causes the problem - just file back the paint - and if you still have a problem with the tolerance, just file them a little more. Easily fixed.
Good review and fantastic paint job on the scenery it looks amazing! I don’t play Kill team but looking through the free intercessor pdf there are lot of extra levels of complexity! Think I would start with the basic rules first then add in ploys, equipment, ops later when you get the hang of it.
That's an excellent idea - my commenters seem to coming up with a lot of good ideas I should have put in this video! As always, it's about how much time you have to devote to the one system I guess.
Really like this set. Yours looks bloomin' marvellous on the table peter! Not ordered it yet, but £102 at the UK seller I use. Not too bad, all things considered. I like everything in this box.
@@EsotericOrderGamers But you're the genius who put his ten year plan to get it for free into action. Of course I'm well aware of the NZ/Aus GW tax. These things are getting pricey in the UK, but a real investment elsewhere.
I always like the idea of playing a GW skirmish game and Kill Team seems perfect. Then I hear about all the extra little rules and it seems quite complex and puts me off. Still looks fun though!
I watched another RUclipsr who put the scenery together and he found it super tight even after filing down various connection points in fact he had to use a knife to help pop off those pillar covers, so was wondering if you had to do any major sanding down or if its just differences between sets? Thank you for the interesting look at the rules and all the little bits and bobs a Player has to keep an eye on.
This is one thing I forgot to talk about it, but I edited my pinned comment above. Yes, I had to file down the paint on the joins, after that it was fine. I'll have to do the same for the caps as well, though at the moment they do come off with a little force. It's a bit of a hassle, but I just put it under the category of 'usual modelling jobs', I must admit! They had to design the terrain to work snugly unpainted I guess, and adding paint just makes the joins too firm.
@@EsotericOrderGamers Cheers, I was hoping he might have just had a bad set as it seemed to be a big negative on the ease of use front so good to know it's a set that needs a little more upfront work.
Its GW, convulated bloated and unneccessary rules are their fore. They dont care as long as they can sell you new rules later and update them even if none of them makes sense. Remember it is Your Game. Just use enough rules to play and feel free to customize any gameplay situations as logically as you are comfortable with. Play Solo or have your friends agree to yours/their rules. Just ENJOY it. It is your game. Make up your own rules, You own it, not GW. Play 40K without Morale Phase, interactively and realistically, using skirmish rules etc. In a Real Battle, Who plays I Go First, You go Next? I find 40k System Obsolete and Ridiculous
Well, I agree with you that it is your game and you can do what you like with it ..., but then again, I don't have enough spare time to come up with appropriate house rules etc. But that's just me. I'm certainly not a slave to rules as given. In fact there's something in the rules about getting history points for painted models, which is ridiculous!
You can find my Kill Team: Into the Dark Rules Summary and Reference here: www.orderofgamers.com/games/kill-team/
Also, I forgot to mention it, but you'll have to file off your undercoat and paint on the joins, because the terrain fits very snugly when the plastic is bare, but too tightly when it's painted.
Fantastic job painting that terrain!
Thanks mate!
Totally agree about the cognitive load versus benefit. You could easily scrap the equipment for example. They just add minor buffs etc. Also I’m not a massive fan of the tac op cards. Wish Kill team were as simple as Warcry.
Amazing work on the painting!
Cheers Jon!
Hi Peter. I really like your paint job on the scenery. Looks fantastic. Thanks also for doing a bit of a discussion about the rules. As you mentioned at the beginning of the video it takes a long time to "digest" a GW game. There is assembling and cleaning models/scenery, getting them painted, and then being able to play enough games that you get to the point where you are "full." In the 80s and 90s I feel like we had time to do just that. I'm a little disturbed by the modern GW trend of borrowing the seasonality idea from the video gaming world. Wargames are not video games, people just cannot consume them at the same pace. I really worry about the future of the hobby if they keep pushing this trend. A new giant boxed game costing $200 plus dollars every three months? Talk about drinking from the fire hose. Thanks for the video.
They really are churning out the product at a huge rate these days. But I assume these decisions have been endlessly cost-predicted and forecasted and all the rest of it, with a company GW's size!
The problem seems to be that GW went public, and the ever increasing demand to sell more and more. The consumers are left to poney up more and more of their hard earned money or limit what games they choose to spend their money on. Since their games are so time consuming, they will eventually fail with their current business model, unless they can rapidly grow their consumer base.
@@blkjet117 That did happen in 1994, probably time to move on from it now! 🤣 Every business wants to sell more and more, that's the nature of business - and since their profits have been growing comfortably year to year, I'm not seeing any incentive for GW to change their business model any time soon.
In order to perhaps, send some games to you for review - simply shoot an email that I can find?
You can contact me from the EOG website here: www.orderofgamers.com/contact/
Just wondering. Would you play this solo?
No, you couldn't play it solo. Well, you could play the opponent's moves, but there'd be no point.
Hey mate, really interesting what you said about the cognitive load and the gameplay worth you get out of the game (around 11 min mark).
What board games would you recommend that have nice gameplay, are simple and have cool miniatures?
Thanks in advance:)
Oh Greg mate, that's such a huge question with so many variables. I shy away from recommendations, because games are such a personal thing and depend on factors such as theme preferences, level of comfort with complexity, preferences for different styles - the list goes on and on. I really can't just say 'these ones' without establishing a whole lot of parameters, and even then it may just come down to personal likes and dislikes.
Have you ever played Space Hulk?
Of course! Bought the first edition when it came out and have owned every edition since. Here's an old battle report: ruclips.net/video/F2MU2IG5PfI/видео.html
I very strongly think that it's too much information for too little return.
You probably know that I'm an Infinity fan; the cognitive load is staggeringly high, so I don't recommend the game! BUT, Infinity gives you an experience that is not replicated in other games; a feeling that is distinct, and tactical options I find interesting.
Kill Team and 40k games are usually breadth, not depth. Rather than having a dozen overcomplicated rules, GW games have hundreds of simple rules. And I think that those simple rules are much harder to remember and less interesting.
That's not to say that my favorite games (Infinity, Malifaux, and indie games) are perfect, or that GW games are bad. They're all good in different ways!
But I like to play a game that goes "all the way" into what it's trying to do. If you're trying to make a game that's extremely detailed and simulationist, there are great games like "Chain of Command." If you want a board game like experience, there's board games. If you want a complex hero brawler, there's Malifaux or any number of off-the-books games like Guild Ball.
If you want story, there are narrative-first games like Grimlite, the 5 Parsecs/5 Leagues series, or other narrative-heavy games like the *Grave games.
If you want simplicity, there are games like "One Page Kill Team" which is basic but enjoyable and speedy, and good for youngsters.
If you want scale, there are games with smaller miniatures and more "epic" flavor... games which you yourself have covered. 😉
So, with all of these gorgeous games - many of which lets you use your own models - in existence, it's tough to dive in to a game like Kill Team. I feel like I know the setting well enough; if I want to have the flavor and story of the 42nd Millenium, I can use my imagination and their writing, not their rules.
You definite have excellent points, and I do tend to agree. Though I must admit in games like Necromunda, it does seem to translate into a very cinematic game, though I wish they could do the same with less dice rolls and less rules checking! I often wonder if die-hard W40K and AoS players have actually played any other tabletop miniatures games, or if their only experience is Warhammer ones. The bottom line for many people is though, the miniatures really are gorgeous, and a lot of people are absolutely obsessed with the particular flavour of the Warhammer backgrounds. It is great to see them finally shaking up the old rules formula, but I too wish they could do it with less fiddly special abilities.
Hmm between your points, and Peter's mention of necromunda.... I really wonder if GW and their customers wouldnt have been better served by making this a necromunda expansion.
I really vehemently dislike KT21. Not that KT 18 was much better in regards to rules opacity, but at least there, like peter mentioned a couple times in the video, the terminology in KT18 wasnt so damned obtuse for no reason at all.
Maybe its time for GW to bring back their flash in the pan "Shadow War: Armageddon" rules into contemporary use, which allowed you to play OLD necromunda using various 40k lists. It was restrictive in what could be used, but still a damned sight better than what KT21 has to offer.
@@Colorcrayons But the problem with Necromunda is that it's MORE complicated. I think this version of Kill Team is pretty good, and I like the combat system. It's just the huge amount of special rules, but that's in every GW game (though in Warcry they're a bit more manageable). I'm not sure why you're quite so against this version of KT?
I feel the same way, these are games that I WANT to be good, because the aesthetic/theme and models are of high quality, but then I sit down and play these GW games and they are just severely lacking in terms of depth and interesting tactical/strategic decisions... that turn the tide of battle in your favour. The replay value isn't there because there isn't enough to explore, I like games that have me thinking about them not only whilst playing, but also when I'm not, theroycrafting new strategy's to employ on the battlefield. Games that have interesting combos between models, games that after several hundred plays you are still finding new ways to optimize with the tools at your disposal, games with evolving metas. Once you have experienced games like Malifaux, Infinity, bushido, guildball etc you really cant go back to GW's offerings. I do hope that one day GW hire better rules designers, but why would they feel the need to right now when they are making so much money.... I consider them to be like the AAA publishers of the video game industry, in that they have high production values, large marketing reach, but under the surface there just isn't much substance to their games, certainly not enough to satisfy the more hardcore gamer.
@@anab0lic I strongly agree.
The madnman already primed it all and painted the terrain.
It looks amazing.
I'm not maaaaaaddddd, I tell you!!!! 🤪
lol@@EsotericOrderGamers
I'm a Kill Team tragic, at the moment, but I find the cognitive load far less than most modern wargames, which is my basis for comparison. Stats on individual team members tend to be pretty similar - they've usually got a single special ability that sets them apart. Remembering ploys takes a bit longer in my experience, but I think that's good for the longevity of the game - as you master it, and remember when to use what ploys, you'll start to feel a sense of accomplishment. I enjoy Kill Team as my favourite "school night game" precisely because it's easy enough (once you've grokked the core rules) to play a game in an hour and a half pretty stress free. It's certainly not something to pick up and play incidentally, and certainly has more learning needed than the average board game. I dunno, different strokes for different folks and all that.
No, I completely understand what you're saying, and the only difference between us is that I play so many games with my limited gaming time that it's hard to devote the time to it that it needs. I imagine if I played it semi-exclusively for a while it would flow a lot easier.
Wow! New Kroot! Its been what...? Over 2 decades since the last major installment of kroot models? If youre a 3rd ed 40k vet, kroot may still seem new, but my god the kroot are old.
Peter, I am not a fan of KT21 at all. Do you know of a mini agnostic system that I could install here to supplant the KT21 rules in this set? Especially considering how you remark on how something a bit more elegant would be better? (I happen to also share your taste here, as I am a Warcry proselytizer)
I wonder if I shouldnt just use space hulk 1st ed, with genestealer cult rules for the kroot (aliens now being abe to shoot being the main reason that initial thought was triggered)
Well the problem is never replacing the rules, it's replacing the stats and special abilities of the miniatures. I'm a big fan of The Drown Earth rules, the Root would make really good post-apocalyptic tribal dinosaur/human hybrids. :)
I don’t know how much of a run-up GW gave you with your advanced copy of the game, but your paint job on the terrain is fantastic!
Not enough! Otherwise I would have done the teams too. But I get the games a bit later down here in NZ.
If you think this is bad play Battletech with all the advanced rules.
In that case .. no thanks! :)
Agree on the mental load, for faction rules and each specialist
This is a game, you are ment to play every week for 3 months.
Great video as always. Thanks for sharing your opinion on Into the Dark. Kind of wish I bought this one for myself, but I at least have a preorder set of Levithan waiting for me this weekend. :)
Ahh, I do like that 'as always' bit. 🤣 Thanks for your kind words. You'll enjoy Leviathan, I filmed a battle report for a combat patrol game last night and had a hoot!
Great job on painting the terrain. I’m amazed by the volume of minis you can paint. As for the rule complexity issue, if there are too many rules, then player fluency is reduced. That not only leads to frequent rules referencing, but it is hard for a player to understand the threat posed by the other player which can create Gotcha moments.
Yep, I agree with you. And gotcha moments caused by one person just being better at rules retention can be a little unsatisfying.
When I was younger I preferred characters but now I would rather see class types for fighters than individual characters. Brain cells diminishing. So many games, so little time. Boo hoo. Also, $300++ .....sheeesh!
Not for you then!
Kill Team is my main game. Tbh, I feel like strategic and tactical ploys, and equipment on top of special abilities of operatives are fine, but Tac-Ops are too much. Completely agree that Kill Team's core mechanics are far better than WH40K.
Intersting - I wonder why they feel the need to stack so many special abilities on top of the core gameplay?
Thank you, best review I've watched and sooo impressed with your terrain painting skills! I 100% agree with your point about unnecessary layered complexity, it's a big GW problem and I am speaking as an experienced, long-standing player - Warhammer 40,000 is particularly bad at the moment. I've got to the point now that I just use my own rules and my own model datasheets. I also share your annoyance with rounds called 'turning points' and overwatch called 'guard'. My biggest annoyance however is using coloured symbols instead of numbers, that annoys the hell out of me! Anyway, regarding Into the Dark, I feel that the terrain is far better than the game rules deserve, there's so much more that could be done with it. I would make breaching and room clearance a new way to play, with the game specifically designed for the terrain. As it is, it's just Kill Team (with all its flaws) played in a slightly different setting. I already have a huge investment in Zone Mortalis, this has to offer something different.
Hey, that's nice to hear Mike, thanks - tell your friends! 🤣 I think I agree with you, there could have been more space hulk-specific rules to make use of the terrain (though here we are, adding more rules!) - perhaps they'll put more of that in the 3 boxed sets that are yet to come out ...
So, no example or review of the proceduraly generating maps? That's actually the only reason I clicked over to your video. Still a decent presentation though I've no other comparison since this is my first viewing of your channel.
Sorry, if I'd known beforehand exactly what you wanted I certainly would have included it! 🤣 🤣
Brilliant review, I absolutely agree about the shapes denoting inches as really counter intuitive and just a bit annoying.
It's a weird one, no mistake. I suppose they got stumped by what to do for a 2" distance...
Im with you. Today there are a lot more games avalible, and think people genaraly play more different games, and to have a complex but yet easy system with less stuff to remember or look up all the time is preferable. Its hard to remember all the different game rules and when we pick up a game after it have been on the shelf for a time no one remembers.. 😂😂 maby its because we getin older. 😅
I don't know about you but I get smarter and better looking with every passing day! 🤣
Brilliant overview. I find the system to be very interesting. Like you said though, I wish Games Workshop games didn't have so many small rules that make it difficult to just pick up and play.
We're on the same page there!
Did you have problems with assembling the walls? I have seen other videos where they say it take forever to set them up prior to the game and they connect to firm. One creator even gave the terrain based on functionality 2/5 just because the problems with building the board and the risk of breaking it.
Oh, I meant to mention this, but forgot, I had to file off the paint where the pieces join. Once I'd done that they fit fine. The caps are still a bit too snug, but I haven't filed off the paint there yet. In other words, the bare plastic fit is fine, but if you prime and paint over it you'll have to file that back. Also, be sure to paint the codes on the bottom of each piece to make finding them easier. Giving it 2/5 is just silly!
@@EsotericOrderGamers Hmm good info. Very helpful tips. Good enough, I think, to be added as a short addendum in the description of the video... ;)
@@Colorcrayons I added it to my pinned comment, should be a bit more visible.
8:20 silly, I know, but it's all about branding, copyright and the rot. We still call them rounds.
I'm not sure it is, as GW uses the normal terminology in all their other games. Maybe in this case someone was just trying to be cool and different? Who knows, but it just adds unnecessary confusion I reckon. I also continue to call them rounds, I doubt 'turning point' is going to catch on!
The complexity of the game is a perk. You can play a load of different teams and if the rules were too simple, there wouldn't be the room/flexibility to have teams develop wildly different flavors.
As you say, it's a lifestyle game. For the casual player, it's quite a lot. For a lifestyle player, it's a lot of fun.
Well, that's what I pointed out! 😆
@@EsotericOrderGamers You sure did. I'm reinforcing that sentiment.
@@iVardensphere Thanks! 😃
Love to know how you think this stacks up against grimdark firefight. Your take on things to remember resonates
If you check out my other video on Gallowdark, you'll find a far more detailed look and my personal thoughts on the Kill Team system in general. Cheers!
I think I counted like each real faction have like 30 special rules across its base rules, operative rules, tac ops, ploys, equipment, etc. This is GW design pulled from like 40k where you have a pretty boring low tactics base rules that need these to make the game really have any choices. Kill team though is a modern designed game which has more in common with Deadzone than 40k so has plenty of tactical choices without the need for all those rules. The compendium teams are less complex but are very limited in composition which was a turn off for previous edition players.
Personally I prefer simpler team building rules, but I do understand how that part of the game appeals to some people.
@@EsotericOrderGamers A fair amount of the compendium teams did not have any real choices. Pick the faction and the team was pretty much set.
I stopped playing Kill Team as soon as I found simpler games like Space Weirdos and Star Breach. That terrain is great though and you made a great job of painting it. I will probably just pick up the terrain and game board.
I'll check those out, haven't heard of them.
@@EsotericOrderGamers Both miniatures agnostic rulesets. Star Breach has a free download but I did purchase the book and the dice to support the designer. Space Weirdos is on Wargame Vault. Definitely try them.
@@haxan6663 I'll have a look, cheers.
I play and think about games a lot, and even I look at the VetGuard and just dread learning all these dude's unique rules. 'S not wrong per sey, but it is a lot to track.
Excellent painting!
The kill team standard overwatch action is a little strangely named. I think they should have called it something like 'reactive shot'. You are correct that you can use any operative with an engage order that has not yet performed the overwatch action that turning point and is not in close combat (engagement range). This includes your heavy weapon (providing the weapon special rules do not specifically deny the action). It seems odd until you play say Space Marines vs Veteran Guard. Space Marines get 6 operatives where as Veteran Guard get 14 operatives. The Overwatch action not only helps to even out the imbalance in units but it also gives the SM player something to do for the majority of the turning point. Without it, the SM player would spend 60% of the turning point not getting to do anything.
Without the overwatch action, teams with large numbers of operatives would have a huge advantage over the smaller kill teams when it comes to objectives and victory points, as once the other player has activated all their operatives they could freely do whatever they want on the board without any counter from the other player.
Interesting. I guess this is compensation for the usual 'buy your team makers with points' method, where sides tend to end up being roughly the same in size, but it does just feel a bit weird getting those extra shots 'for free'. I mean, in 'real life', teams with a large number of operatives *would* have an advantage. I've never seen this done in other games.
@@EsotericOrderGamers I see it as a factor of the firepower the elite teams bring to the board over the non elite teams. The weapon stats of a bolter vs a lasgun don't really reflect the difference in the weapons, but if you factor in that the Space Marine gets to shoot twice thanks to overwatch the Space Marine is much more deadly. Now you need two guardsman to even come close to match the Space Marine in damage potential.
In a battle between two evenly matched teams yes the side with the greater numbers has the advantage, but space marines and guardsman are not supposed to be even close to equal
@@templargfx In most cases there would be fewer marines than guardsmen, so you're increasing the strength of the marines to reflect their better weaponry in this example?
@@EsotericOrderGamers Yeah, lasguns are 2/3 and boltguns are 3/4. But more than just the weapons, Space Marines are faster than a Guardsman. Sisters of Battle have boltguns too, but they get 10 units so against Space Marines the bolters still come out more deadly in the hands of the Space Marines thanks to overwatch.
@@templargfx I think I got confused with my last reply. What this system is doing is rewarding the team with the more members, by giving them more shots per round. That doesn't support the idea of a small elite squad of marines with better weapons.
I agree the Heroquest/Spacecrused/Underworlds dice system is the way to go. Rolling so many d6's is boring and unnecessary
Well, that's maybe going back the other way a little too far! 🤣 But I'd be quite happy to see something like this system or the Warcry system implemented in their big two games.
Did you have issues with the terrain tolerances being too tight making it too hard to breakdown and reassemble into a different configuration?? Ash barker said he had a tonne of problems with his box.
Note my pinned comment above. It's painting them that causes the problem - just file back the paint - and if you still have a problem with the tolerance, just file them a little more. Easily fixed.
Good review and fantastic paint job on the scenery it looks amazing! I don’t play Kill team but looking through the free intercessor pdf there are lot of extra levels of complexity! Think I would start with the basic rules first then add in ploys, equipment, ops later when you get the hang of it.
That's an excellent idea - my commenters seem to coming up with a lot of good ideas I should have put in this video! As always, it's about how much time you have to devote to the one system I guess.
Really like this set. Yours looks bloomin' marvellous on the table peter! Not ordered it yet, but £102 at the UK seller I use. Not too bad, all things considered. I like everything in this box.
It's so much cheaper up there!
@@EsotericOrderGamers But you're the genius who put his ten year plan to get it for free into action. Of course I'm well aware of the NZ/Aus GW tax. These things are getting pricey in the UK, but a real investment elsewhere.
I always like the idea of playing a GW skirmish game and Kill Team seems perfect. Then I hear about all the extra little rules and it seems quite complex and puts me off. Still looks fun though!
It still is fun, it's just fun in that rules heavy GW way. 🤣
@@EsotericOrderGamers Haha I'll have to see if I can persuade someone to play in that case! 😄
I watched another RUclipsr who put the scenery together and he found it super tight even after filing down various connection points in fact he had to use a knife to help pop off those pillar covers, so was wondering if you had to do any major sanding down or if its just differences between sets? Thank you for the interesting look at the rules and all the little bits and bobs a Player has to keep an eye on.
This is one thing I forgot to talk about it, but I edited my pinned comment above. Yes, I had to file down the paint on the joins, after that it was fine. I'll have to do the same for the caps as well, though at the moment they do come off with a little force. It's a bit of a hassle, but I just put it under the category of 'usual modelling jobs', I must admit! They had to design the terrain to work snugly unpainted I guess, and adding paint just makes the joins too firm.
@@EsotericOrderGamers Cheers, I was hoping he might have just had a bad set as it seemed to be a big negative on the ease of use front so good to know it's a set that needs a little more upfront work.
@@markgrehan3726 I don't think it's a huge deal, but then I guess I'm used to putting a lot of work into every game I get! 🤣
Its GW, convulated bloated and unneccessary rules are their fore. They dont care as long as they can sell you new rules later and update them even if none of them makes sense. Remember it is Your Game. Just use enough rules to play and feel free to customize any gameplay situations as logically as you are comfortable with. Play Solo or have your friends agree to yours/their rules. Just ENJOY it. It is your game. Make up your own rules, You own it, not GW. Play 40K without Morale Phase, interactively and realistically, using skirmish rules etc. In a Real Battle, Who plays I Go First, You go Next? I find 40k System Obsolete and Ridiculous
Well, I agree with you that it is your game and you can do what you like with it ..., but then again, I don't have enough spare time to come up with appropriate house rules etc. But that's just me. I'm certainly not a slave to rules as given. In fact there's something in the rules about getting history points for painted models, which is ridiculous!