I remember listening to the forester (from an earlier episode) say that the when the american chestnuts were struck with disease in the late 19th century, the govt undoubtedly removed chestnuts that werent infected and were fighting back against the disease. It reminded me that nature's way of curing itself is just to continue living for as long as possible. So if you cut out all the beech seedlings, the next generation of trees that would naturally fight the inherited disease would be prematurely eliminated. Rewilding with nursery trees isn't ideal because they often stem from cuttings, so arent as genetically diverse. All this is to say, if wild chestnuts are now living to an average of 30-40 years in the wild- a significant increase over their lifespan a century ago- maybe you should leave the beech seedlings so that they figure out through the generations how to fight back. I have ZERO educational basis for this opinion but I think being a better steward of the land means allowing more of the land to steward itself.
We definitely won't cut beech seedlings or ash that is not infected by emerald ash borer, for instance. Beech, like many trees, sprout from the root base of an infected tree, however, will not miraculously recover, however, because it's the same genetic stock as the parent plant, which it is sprouting from. So root sprouts and seedlings are two different beasts, per se. Thanks though for bringing up this point because it further clarifies it for other folks.
I understand thinning out to get the trees you want to grow faster but if you want true old growth then you will want to leave it alone completely. We don't allow nature to clear forest undergrowth with fire as it used to in younger forests, most old growth doesn't have much under story since light is mostly blocked by the trees.
One thing I learned over years of watching forest is that they exist in a state of chaos. death and disease is a normal and expected thing within forests and nature. humans have this weird distain for both death and chaos due to needing to feel in control and both those are largely out of our control. Its nice to be out in the wood with saws, I love spending time trying to balance species populations. Management is fun, and clearing to open up the forest is really rewarding.
One thing I've learned over years of watching humans is that some people really like to micromanage, and many folks focus so much on dealing with immediate problems that their solutions to those problems end up making bigger, longer scale problems even worse. Nature isn't centrally planned, so as humans we need to be careful about not doing too much central planning for nature.
Your knowledge is always impressive. Does your region have any global warming type programs to help buy trees to reforest? It’s so frightening to realize how many trees will be affected by disease alone.
There are some grant programs here. We applied for a grant right in the beginning, for which we sadly didn't receive. Though it was not clear in the grant, it was largely for unforested or deforested land-not land that already had second growth, transitional forest. That's something that the grantmakers are now going to make clear in the second round, based on what happened with us and others who took the time to apply. So we hope to find other creative strategies or programs that may be able to lend a helping hand.
What a project! I'm doing the same in Nova Scotia on 10 acres of forest and 2 acres of meadow - observe and interact. Parts of my forest are further along in succession with mature sugar maples and yellow birch, but other parts (which were logged) have no understory with all even aged trees mostly balsam fir and red maple. So far no Emerald Ash borers or woolly adelgids, but they have arrived in parts of the province so it's only a matter of time. I will be going out today to look for diseased beeches - thanks for the heads up! Two questions: 1. Have you thought of anything in the Juglans genus? Black walnut, butternut, heartnut, japanese walnut etc...? I'm thinking in a polylculture with juglone tolerant species such as elderberry, hazel, and the hawthorns and pawpaws you mentioned. Deer have not touched my pawpaws, yet. Juglans trees are all easy to start from seed thus saving you start up costs. 2. Have you listened to any of John Kempf's talks? I'm sure you have, but if not, his expertise lies in maximizing the health and nutritional profile of agricultural crops, and claims (and has demonstrated) that healthy plants - those able to photosynthesis maximally thus registering high on the brix scale - are NOT susceptible to pests and diseases. Everytime I listen to his talks, I wonder how applicable this is to forest systems. Are our forests not as healthy as they could be which is why they are not able to defend against these pests and diseases? I've never heard him talk about forests, but he does talk about orchards. He underscores the importance of diversity of cover crops to get nutrients (macro and micro) cycling - which you're doing in the meadow. He also talks about various foliar sprays and soil drenches (pretty much all can be homemade) that can be applied to give the plants what they're lacking and boost the microbial activity unlocking more essential nutrients so that the plants can maximally photosynthesize and become immune to pests and diseases. Foliar spraying and soil drenching a forest is an insurmountable task, but I'm going to try some test areas. Your deer exclusion zone might be a reasonable size to invest time into feeding the microbes with both groundcovers and sprays/drenches. It will be very interesting to see what's in that seed bank. I appreciate your work, Summer. Thank you. You are no longer in a Brooklyn apartment!
Very insightful questions, Jennifer. Thank you for further along the conversation and discussion here, especially for others to indulge in, as well. Your point of Juglans species-Yes! . We actually just harvested some black walnut seedlings from a nut grove here. I spoke with some of my counterparts here and there are SUCH a wide range of species that tolerate and don't care that there is juglone in the environment, that it's worth it. We have learned that butternut, unfortunately, has a disease that is killing it (Ophiognomonia clavigignenti-juglandacearum, which is butternut canker), and there are crews of people going out to find populations that haven't been hit by the canker. And Kempf's work would be applicable to forests too. You can tell this forest is operating at a subpar level. It IS stressed. We still need to get our compost game on so we can produce more compost tea sprays, but we think that will really overall benefit the land. We think even bringing in a mixutre from the old growth forest here to jumpstart it, would be sensible. We are somewhat actively pursuing someone who can do a compost tea spray over many acres. I say "somewhat" because it's one of many explorations we're doing. But we think that application can really help the forest (and even the newly planted meadow area).
@@FlockFingerLakes Great idea about the old growth forest inoculant! I'm thinking IMO (indigenous micro organisms) #1-4 would be the best way to accomplish that. That way you barely disturb the OG forest and, in the end, get a huge amount of spreadable material populated with diverse beneficials. I've tried collecting IMO to varying degrees of success. It requires trial/error/patience. Nigel Palmer's book The Regenerative Grower's Guide to Garden Amendments explains in detail and/or Chris Trump videos are invaluable or anything about Korean Natural Farming (KNF) would explain too. I have heard of butternut canker. It's not stopping me from planting them as an experiment in small numbers. I'm terribly curious if, with a healthy immune system in a diverse system, these butternuts could ward off the disease? Perhaps it's a genetic roll of the dice, but maybe it's about having the right support plants nearby, and the right biology in the soil.
Since climate change is affecting forests, I wonder if you should look 100 miles south and see what is native in that region. Those trees might be the trees than can survive in your garden in the coming century.
Hi Diana, it's a very good point, and many forest managers are doing just that to see what they can glean from other eco-regions. There are interesting climate models that basically show what forest composition can look like in 10, 50, 100, 200 years from now. I'm originally from an area about an hour or more south of here (actually around 100 miles away), so there's a benefit to that because those are the habitats I grew up with as a child. Chestnut, for example, was a really prominent species in my home state of Pennsylvania, so using some of those habitats I am familiar with, is definitely helping inform the potential enrichment planting here in at least some of the forest.
I REALLY ENJOYED THIS VIDEO!!! Thank You for ALL your efforts, plus putting these videos out there for more people to get to know how doing even their small part can be helpful! ❤️
If you were to only add the deer fence, it would regenerate, wouldn't it? Seems like that alone would cause a cascade of positive changes... With more diversity, some of your bug stressors would reduce. I think you have a great opportunity here to nurture this ecosystem!
Yes, if you recall the video we did on the remnant old growth at Smith Woods (ruclips.net/video/RUAfSqKG3DE/видео.html, placing up a deer fence allowed for the herbaceous growth, like spring ephemerals to rebound back in a short period of time. Smith Woods, however, was old enough and was never really cut, to have a nice, biodiverse woodland. We would just be trying to help our woods along with some more biodiversity to start, at least in part of the area that is fenced.
Birch you can also tap for a unique syrup! We’re in mid Hudson valley and dealing with much of the same forest issues - ash was hit hard and we cleared a ton this year. We’re also looking at paw paw and native persimmon. We also planted native hazelnut and black cherry. The arborist suggested new elm cultivars and we are lucky to have some surviving american elms. Also would suggest looking at native mulberry and northern hardy pecans if you go Agro-forestry route
Yes to all of that. We planted one elm cultivar last year in the fenced area. Just to try it out. There will be a "nut" area that is at the base of the interstitial land here where we started some hazelnuts. We ordered 50 more to start. They are really affordable when just ordering bare root. Are the northern hardy pecans good producers? I know Sean from Edible Acres had one on his land. It would be great if they are. I know sometimes pecans need more growing season than what we have here. Mulberries we're thinking around the future chicken coop area so they can have the pure joy of eating those as well when they fall. It's such a treat for the chickens-that and elderberry. Thanks for your suggestions.
(If you plant for birch syrup, go with Betula Lenta, another black birch. It's the one with the distinctive anise/mint/rootbeer scent. Overall, you don't get as much syrup from birches as from maple, and it's easier to "burn" the flavour.)
"i'm laughing, but i'm laughing in pain and horror" MEEE, but seriously, the loss of so many trees even in a small 2 acre yard over my life since childhood is what led me to want to plant trees in the first place. also interesting about the chestnut, conveniently the soil where i am is like 60%+ sand, so my little seedlings bode well. also saw the comment about species recovery over time by leaving them be, i've already noticed some ash trees here that are thriving several years after all the ash trees in the area have died, so i have hope for them too, and these surviving ones are big old 60' ones with millions of 6'-10' children
Sounds like you have the start to really promising soil for chestnut. And I would keep an eye on those ash. You may have some resistant genes. We have some ash also in our woods that have no sign of emerald ash borer. We think it may be because they are further in the woods and have other species around them, which may just indicate again-the importance of biodiversity.
Interesting about the mountain lion. Thought I saw one years ago in the Phelps area where we lived in central NY, crossing the road at dusk following a well-known deer trail. It looked like a lion, but the color was not yellow, but darker. Everyone said I was crazy. Now I live in the foothills of Colorado and we have lots of mountain lions and guess what - they look just like what I saw in NY, including the color. So, not crazy. However, even with the lions, we have many mule deer because there are almost no wolves, just a few in isolated areas, and the ranchers do not want them re-introduced. I get why not, but even with all the hunting out here, the deer and elk are everywhere - beautiful and majestic, but totally unafraid of people and eating so much. I am not a fan of the industrial meat industry and eat almost none of their product anymore, but really don't have a problem with hunters putting deer and elk in their freezers. But I don't think they will ever put enough of a dent in the population to really make a difference. Love your channel - always learn something new and get to visit our old stomping grounds in NY.
They have re introduce, very recently wolfs, they passed the law couple of years back, the goverment pay to ranchers, if any cattle gets killed , it happened recently. that will help with the population of deer and elk. but is very recently.
I hear you on the deer front. I have 2.2 acres in a suburban subdivision and I often have 2 herds of deer at 5-6 each per herd walking through my yard. I want to plant a vegetable garden and create a native sanctuary on 2 acres of the land and I’m concerned with protecting all the plants. Our neighbor uses electrified fencing to keep them out of his garden. We want to plant more native oaks, dogwoods, hollies, and other understory trees as well as native shrubs and I’m just worried they’ll eat everything. Thanks for recording your journey on planting natives on your land. It helps me a lot since I’m so new to gardening.
Glad you can find this useful. A low-cost solution to fencing is that trident fencing we used in previous videos. Very easy to assemble yourself with a partner; and relatively affordable. Would be easy to do on 2 acres.
Can you hunt any of the deer? They really are a pest (more like a plague). I'm in NJ and they're everywhere here too. And they have no fear of humans; not even the does. I really appreciate the tough decisions you have to make, ironically in the name of conservation.
The deer are hunted around here. There is a healthy population of hunters. It's just that there are SO many deer. Don't get us wrong-we love them. They are an absolute joy to watch. And quite entertaining after we collect the game cams too, but they can be so destructive to the vegetation of the area. The forest is so large here (at least for us) that it'll be interesting to see how different management of the various areas-from intensely managed to left to rewild alone-fenced and unfenced-will ultimately result in the composition of the forest.
Same here. The deer meander about, in the parking lot....and even go up to peoples' front doors if there are plantings. They have very little fear of people. This is in a condo development.
Maybe see if you can work with the state and claim “crop damage” to increase the number of deer taken from your property and target doe aggressively. Many homeless shelters and food pantry services will take venison to help those in need in your general area.
Northern Michigan also has a huge problem with thousands of dead and dying trees along highways caused by decades of road salt applications during the winter. One stretch of highway from Boyne City to Petoskey looked like a tree graveyard, as did long stretches of dying forests between Charlevoix and Traverse City. Add to that the effects of global warming, invasive boring insects, blights like destructive fungus, and you have a recipe for the destruction of the northern forests in upper Michigan. This past summer, road crews spent weeks cutting down dead trees around the area to prevent them from falling over roads during fall and winter storms. There is also a great increase in logging on private lands, which I believe was touched off by the huge increase in lumber prices in 2021 tempting people to log their lands for money - not thinking what that will do to the health of forests over time.
🦋🦋. It would be a solution. To have a hunting season there. 🦌🦌🦌There are hunters that don’t hunt for just sport . But to feed their family. Upstate.etc. So interesting Learning. About all of the trees 🌲🌳🍁and their vulnerabilities. . It is wonderful whatever you are doing. I’m a upstate NY country loving woman, there is wonderful soil there. All the best with your endeavors. 🍀🕊🍀🕊🍀🕊🦋🍁
Thinking out loud here -- why isn't the state of New York acting against the numerous deer population? I am thinking game could be a very nutritious meat and a more sustainable alternative to beef
Great video! Thanks for thinking through the species diversity. I've tried to comment a few times with a link, but american forests just released some interesting stuff about saving ash with grafting to stump sprouts. Have you all inspected the duff for jumping worms in the warm months? ANother issue with woodlands beyond deer. I may have you mention it, but if you haven't added to your list consider hazelnuts as an understory and border plant!
Will have to hunt down the stump sprout graft research. To your question on jumping worms: we have not seen them here. Not saying they don't exist, but just haven't seen them. And we've planted about a dozen hazelnuts so far, east of the interstitial area, where we're creating more of a "nut zone". We ordered 50 more bare roots that we'll be picking up locally come April, so we're pretty jazzed about that!
Yes, the sugars are on the sloped area. We don't have them in this little region where we walked, but we do have red. For the must part, the maples are doing OK. The red, as I mentioned, had been hit a little less so by the gypsy moths. The sad thing about our reds here are that they had pretty much all been harvested and grew back in strange manners, which don't give strong structures for the trees. That being said, we have a healthy enough stock to regenerate, particularly in areas that are fenced in. We also have plenty of striped maple, which seems to be left alone by the deer.
Thanks for sharing - after living on former farmland that was clear cut and has regrown with many of the species you describe, I'm actually looking at the forest and trying to assess its health. Please keep us in the loop on your work on this! Best!
This makes me feel that things happen for a reason. It must be sad and very surprising to learn that this forest is so unwell, but after the long road Flock has been on has led you there, its clear that you're meant to be there because you can help this forest. It's a truly rare union; Summer with her remarkable expertise and knowledge, Saunder with his hardworking spirit and eagerness to learn everything, Joey with his vision of beauty, and this piece of privately owned land that would have otherwise been left to decay. This feels like kismet. And the knowledge and inspiration you're sharing by documenting everything so splendidly is solid gold. You're a beacon, and its marvelous.
Your knowledge is always impressive. Does your region have any global warming type programs to help buy trees to reforest? It’s so frightening to realize how many trees will be affected by disease alone.
12:58 I don't know if you are aware that the insect formerly known as the "gypsy" moth has been officially renamed by the Entomological Society of America, because "gypsy" is a derogatory ethnic slur. The new common name for this insect is "Spongy Moth." See the Entomological Society of America's Web page for the Better Common Names Project.
Thanks! Yes, a few folks made mention of it here. Didn't even realize that the original name was potentially derogatory even. Figured the name "gypsy" came from the fact that it traveled from place to place with ease. Spongy moth it is. But maybe I'll stick to the scientific name moving forward.
The whole time you were talking about the forest, I kept thinking about the Chestnut Blight, and how I've heard the American variety being replaced by the "European" variety. The European Chestnut is the only description I've heard. I've never lived up North, so I'm not personally familiar with some of your native species, but I'm always intrigued by any kind of tree! So I have only casually followed the Chestnut blight situation. When you brought it up, I thought that was really good information you gave us. I was wondering how you would be feeling about bringing in a non-native, yet similar tree, if you were to replace the American Chestnut. As for whether or not your soil is "right" or "best" for Chestnuts, that may be true, but we humans have a tendency to try to make things perfect, and forget that nature always finds a way to work in the imperfect situations. Pushing the boundaries of "what will work" could lead to very interesting natural results! As for the Ash Borer, and other invasive insects, my mind goes to nature, and how to use it within itself. Btw- how do you refrain from NOT spending the majority of your Winter time up there NOT walking thru the forest, stick in hand, poking through all those moth cocoons?!!! I feel I might work myself into an obsession seeing as they are within arms reach!! How frustrating to see such destruction by them!! I've only just started my own exploration into Mycology, and even though it's been over a year of light study, there's soooo much which we don't know! But my point is, I kept wondering what would happen if introducing the Cordyceps mushroom into the forest near the invasive insects, if that might help bring down the populations? Doing that, and something else I do in my own neck of the woods is create inviting spaces for predatory wasps to help take down the non-beneficial insect populations. Of course, both of those suggestions are not particular to non-beneficial insects! So there is that. But bringing in a diversity of trees, and herbaceous plants, as you're already planning on doing, should increase the populations of ALL the insects, so it shouldn't be a problem. I know many a great mind has been up against the Ash Borer, so perhaps the Cordyceps road has already been tested? I do not know. But thinking outside the box cannot be a bad thing when it comes to these invasive insects!! My mantra is- You'll never know if it works unless you try it. But if you don't try it, it definitely WON'T work! Of course, I'm a bit biased when it comes to mushrooms, and mycelium in regards to soil health. And that's because I strongly believe it's the mycelium connections that create healthy soil, and keep the soil healthy. As I mentioned in another comment, Paul Stamets has done some good experiments on treating ailing trees using mushroom tea to invigorate the tree's immune system. Using the mushroom tea in exactly the same way as using compost tea, and I believe also using it in conjunction with compost tea, has brought some very good results. I find everything you talk about with these trees to be very interesting. Just like the bulbs, I'll be following closely! That darned snow!! ha! I once was visiting family in Colorado, and there was a big snowstorm on Mother's Day!! As a Southern girl, it blew my mind they were still "snowing" in mid-May, and no one batted an eye at it! Down South, we start planting mid-March, so snow in May would be devastating! Let's hope we get to see the bulb show before May!! Keep up all the good work! Y'all have all my good vibes as you trudge through those forest issues! ❤️
labor and cost is the only thing holding you back - go overboard on clearing out and see more diversity - also leave some trees and brushpiles - it is more about doing it than planning - it will be a work in progress always - you will never finish - try some stuff before ruling things out based on what the books say - they know nothing practically
Are gipsy moth food for certain birds? I feel your pain, living in Colorado , I have some concerns, the imbalance in Nature, reading Douglas Tallamy, and getting some hope and what to do to help our ecosystem when comes to gardening, planting natives. Yea some dead trees could be good house for not only birds, but also beneficial insects.I share your feelings, but probably, help Nature and let her do her best too. Good luck Summer, love your videos, and your brain storming, I do the same thing ha!
We haven't witnessed any native birds or other animals eating the caterpillars unfortunately. They are so hairy, I don't think they are very palatable. Would probably be like eating pasta with stiff hairs. haha.
Consider connecting with Tokachi Millennium Forest in Hokkaido, Japan for effective forest management, enrichment planting, canopy culling methods. Their head gardener is a great educator.
There is a forgotten agriculture forest that is roughly 4 hours south of you guys that I am dieing to have someone go to and investigate and do a video about. It is rapidly being lost to suburbia and is not protected. From what I have read it has many interesting food species and every year many are cut down..........could you please please go to it and investigate? It's to far for me here in Minnesota. There is only a couple of articles and one old video that I have found about it and that's it.
Yes, only mentioned in passing, but we have sugars, reds, and stripes here. Sugars more on the slope, in the area that hadn't been grazed. They are doing well enough. They were slightly defoliated by the gypsy moths last year-not as much as the oaks, but we know it'll be a bad year for them this year with the amount of egg sacs we're seeing on the trees.
Hi, why is it that deer is such a big problem? Is it not allowed to hunt ? Here we keep the population down with allowing hunt doing few times of the year. Of course you would need a hunting license and the license to the rifle and in parks there is a wildlife keeper/ forest tender ( I don’t know the English word for it 😆) but that way it is kept under control…. I hope it makes sense what I’m writing 😊 bye 👋 from Denmark 🇩🇰
Many hunters only want prize deer so [picky] hunters wont make up for lack of animal predators unfortunately. If they were willing to kill any type of deer they would be effective against overpopulation but i believe most go for the impressive deer only.
We’re allowed to hunt deer in certain parts of the country. You need a hunting license and there are dedicated seasons for hunting. Some seasons people are encouraged to hunt deer. What sucks is when you have deer on your property but you live in a setting where there are quite a few people so you can only hunt if you ask everyone within a 100 yards if you can hunt the deer. That’s a lot of houses in a suburban setting.
Hi Tulie, yes, I know it's challenging for folks to understand in different parts of the world because it's such a localized issue. What you may have gathered in the video (and previous deer videos on the channel) is that deer are really primed as "edge species". They love and thrive in the edge habitats that humans ultimately create, which happens on homesteads, suburban plots, and even on the periphery of cities. Landscaped areas, fields, the edges of forests are their favorite habitats. You wouldn't really find them in deep, old growth forest. Perhaps if generations before us didn't cut down the forests, then we would be in a different situation. Hunting is harder in areas where there are high densities of people, so deer become fearless and quite "tame". Here in the country, we have more hunters, but it's really not enough to keep populations down. Additionally, as Vinski shared, and what was shared in this video, is that we have taken out their main predators: wolves and mountain lions. We do have coyotes, bobcats, and the occasional mountain lion here but in general-those animals (coyotes, bobcats) are smaller animals and generally rarely take out a mature, healthy deer. The biggest predators now are hunters and (unfortunately) people's automobiles.
@@FlockFingerLakes thank you for the explanation, it makes much more sense. I hope that your project succeed and that the forest get back to good health. It’s so impressive what you guys are doing at your land and your future plans for it. Love following along and seeing all you accomplish 👍😊 thank you for sharing. Much Love from Denmark 🇩🇰
Yes, there are hunters here. It doesn't really make a dent in the explosive population of deer. We would be keen to create more suitable habitat for our big predator animals to do more of the work.
you need to hunt deer to reduce the population - the coyotes aren't cutting it - look at them as an advantage and resource - donate to homeless shelters - without some serious deer depopulation you are not going to have much luck - without active management you are going to have constant problems, don't kill the coyotes - overall the plan is great - you will make some mistakes but try to be more experimental and take some chances, think about forage plots to take pressure off other areas
I HATE DEER SO MUCH! They empty out my bird & squirrel feeders within a day of us filling them up & chomp the heads off of our bulb flowers & crops. I’m 9 months pregnant & actually chased some away from our bird feeders swinging a pie iron - looking like a complete crazy person 🤪 I’d kill & eat them if I wasn’t afraid of chronic wasting disease.
They are an introduced species of caterpillar. We have not witnessed any animals or birds eating them. They have a very coarse, prickly fuzz on them, so they are not really palatable. More like a fuzzy piece of spaghetti. Yack!
I'm glad you ended on a good note. I found it sad to hear all the challenges. The eastern pines was the most upsetting for me I thought they were healthy. Do you want to add more of them? Or will the same insects affect them?
just found your channel. good stuff. you all thinking about doing some site specific seed collecting and cutting propagation to preserve your local genetic diversity? I know you mentioned bringing things in. if you find things in your watershed that seem to be resistant to the common problems you speak of maybe you can preserve those qualities at the same time preventing genetic bottlenecking. big ups neighbor! I'm out east hill way in the hollow at the headwaters.
Yes to getting local items. Our neighbors and cooperative extensions are really good for that as well as the Plant Societies here, particularly the Finger Lakes Native Plant Society since they have seed swaps and exchanges. We also found some more local nurseries-and we're trying some nurseries further south just because we know the seasons are a little warmer and those plants are probably more 'primed' for warm weather. Over time, we hope to have a solid seed collecting and seed bank program here. But that will take some time as well. Glad you found the channel! Much to explore in this region!
@@FlockFingerLakes radical! I think I heard/saw in one of your videos you have an og oak tree in your woods. I have a growing body of work documenting ancient trees through the medium of open air painting (although been focused primarily on fiber art these days). small show up at agava right now if youever pass that way. maybe we link up some day, would love to visit that tree. i could tell you where some more giants stand too. really stoked to see your enthusiasm. Sean and Sasha are down the road from me. haven't actually met them yet but have mutual friends. they were collecting phragmities from a patch near the road up from my house. its been a concern of mine but i want to avoid herbicide applications near the wetland at all cost. they said they were using the hollow stems to make bee habitats. so cool. have you talked to akiva silver from twisted tree? that dude is a champion. all love! ehaec.com
If the gypsy moths will eventually die from a bacteria, it seems like there must be a way to make a spray with that bacteria. I hope someone invents something.
Seems like a sensible idea. I'm not sure if folks have done work in that area. There is a variant of Bacillus thuringiensis specifically used to control caterpillars, but it doesn't make a distinction-and can affect ALL caterpillars. So as long as that bacteria is specific to gypsy moths and no others, then it may be useful to explore.
@@FlockFingerLakes figures it can’t be that simple. I’m in the willamette valley of Oregon, and just moved in with a friend on 8 acres of deciduous forest. It was also clear cut for farming and almost all our trees are the same age. BUT we have an entire Oregon white oak grove! I’ve learned how special they are because they’re being overrun by pine and fir that shades them out. The natives cleared the excess vegetation to prioritize oaks and maximize acorn production. I want to support our oaks, but we also have an unstable hill as a result of the clear cutting. Between landslide risk and forest fire, we have a lot of competing demands. I was struck by the number pests and diseases threatening your trees, and it’s so scary to think that could happen in the PNW some day. We do have tree crotches though, and at least one very large oak split down the middle. You can see the space between it fluctuate in the wind, so dangerous. Haha and we’re dealing with invasive Holly that has gotten massive. I need to try and kill them before they produce too many berries. Wish us luck! I’m loving the channel and learning from you!
Have you looked into bringing in trees from Newfoundland? We have loads of species like what your talking about. Is there a way to set up an indoor area to grow some of the trees effected by different problems and let them grow for a year or two than plant them in the forest after you've taken down the infected trees? While I wish people could live to be 500 years old I think even 200 would be handy for people in your situation who want to set up Long term projects like this. I'm not into hunting myself but maybe New York could hand out deer hunting license.
As I was watching your video I was thinking about a guy here on RUclips who had posted a possible solution for deer browse on young trees. He uses homemade bone sauce and actually sells it. His channel is Perma Pastures Farm, might be a way to protect seedlings, its' non-chemical based so it wouldn't harm the deer, just deter them.
I feel for you as here in Normandy my small woodland is being decimated by chalarose on the Fraxinus excelsior. So many trees are under siege by introduced pathogens. It is very extremely worrying. Since my childhood so many trees have gone thru Dutch Elm Disease and other diseases. I'm not averse to having carpinus woodlands as they are so rare these days. Maybe you can plant some Tilia and corylus? Most of my understory is hazel, Corylus avellana which is great for wildlife. Taxus baccata is trying to come in but deer destroy most of them when young. Deer are becoming a huge problem here too, an issue which the nature conservancy here are not taking seriously yet. Hedera helix has disappeared from the woodlands thru over-browsing here I've noticed. A great pity as it is a huge food source for so much wildlife. Wolves are gradually making their way back up north so maybe they will help a bit but I can't see humans coexisting happily with these magnificent animals easily. At least not here. I just hope that we are not on the verge of an ecological collapse! Will we have to plant some totally exotic resistant tree such as ginkgo to have tree cover? So many questions! Keep up your good work !!
Control herbivory, control invasives, and your tree stand will be fine. To your point, they won’t bother pawpaw or ramps, but those persimmons will be toast without exclusion
This is a lot like the conversations my husband and I have been having for the past few years! Here in southern Ontario, we've had two horrible years for gypsy moth, but I'm fairly certain that they were mostly knocked back by the virus that they are susceptible to last summer. We had thousands of caterpillars in June 2021 (as in 2020) but virtually no moths appearing later in the summer in 2021. While last winter we had egg masses everywhere, this winter there are none that I have found. So hopefully for you if the virus didn't hit them last summer, it will this year. We have been focusing on growing trees from seed that are resistant to gypsy moth. Perhaps not all native to our area, but from further south, thinking ahead with climate change. Tulip poplar, Kentucky coffeetree, red mulberry, honeylocust sycamore are some that we have been adding to the mix. Hackberry and cucumber tree as well, though less resistant. Black locust is also resistant and black walnut seems to manage ok, but we already have a lot of it.
I live in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan, and the deer population is also soaring. There are so many that they even browse trees and shrubs that they normally would not touch; for instance, they used to leave lilacs completely alone, but now go after them avidly. I have a very hard time starting small native trees and must put fencing around any new seedling until it reaches a safe height. People tend to think of deer as sweet, benign creatures, not realizing that any species out of balance with its ecosystem (including of course humans) will become destructive to that very ecosystem. Thank you for this great video - I have shared it to Facebook.
Good on you for taking on the forestry project. I think people should consider 'grooming' or 'sculpting' wind/sun/rain corridors on their land. Look at air flow as well as sun/shade. I think because you have increased woodpecker population, you might not need to remove everything that is diseased to increase insect predation. Do plan success which could include your aspen/alder/birch pioneers. Grow food. Best.
Wonderful teachings for me, a 100% citylady, living in the Tropics, who only knows about Plants in Pots. I don't want to miss a single word of what you say. Beautiful magistral infos. May Mother Nature rewards your unbelievable efforts with love, sunny days, KETO deers, and lots of Very-Dead f---ing and disgusting bichorros.
Went to google, yes they are some birds that might eat the gypsy moth caterpillar, however these insects are non native, those are the ones we don't want in a native forest of course, thank you for keep my mind wondering.Blessings
Chestnut can thrive in many soil types. I wouldn’t rule it out. I just picked up American Chestnut from a neighbor who has it growing in wet, lush lawn-that gets kind of swampy, not sandy at all. Also-on Beech: I’ve watched beech with bark disease for many years- It isn’t a fast death sentence, and it isn’t like an apocalyptic dying off happens. Sure, some beech don’t get past 2’ round, but they last a long time with this disease, and in the meantime host chanterelles and wildlife with their edible beech nuts. I’d never consider clear-cutting a section of what you perceive as ‘dying forest’. All forest is dying-it’s just a matter of time- But it’s also growing. It’s also FIGHTING these diseases afflicting it, and by culling you remove potential for disease resistance. Let it be-at least for several years. Add nutrients and help when you can (deer enclosure), but stepping back and watching and learning a good decade before serious intervention is likely the smartest thing you can do. Humans want to jump in and mess with nature too fast, and end up trampling and destroying aspects they’re not aware of. I’ve hiked woods for years-and watched where people intervened, and where they stepped back. Yes-remove invasives No-don’t cull diseased or weak unless absolutely necessary
Ok deer is not the number one issue in NYS. I live in NYS suburbs with some forests and the number one issue is PEOPLE. Where I live, people are cutting down acres of forests for agriculture, recreation, solar panel farm, condos. I see deer on a lawn eating grass peacefully, but couple blocks down, humans literally chippings tons of trees.
You have got the forestry / tree plan part of your mission down pat! But have you read Sepp Holzer?? - His approach could really help with exactly what your'e trying to accomplish regarding the soil and the understory!! My naturalist tendencies tell me you could really use some massive hugulkultured mounds (each made of the wood + chips of the trees you're taking down) all throughout the forest (to make magical islands of beautiful biota and shrooms). You could innoculate each island with mycelium & I'd want to cover them in a Sepp Holzer-esque mix full of quick biomass making soil healers and your craziest native self seeders. I very much respect what ya'all are doing and really love your passion and ethic!! You're amazing and I love your channel.
this was a very helpful video. we are in the process of removing all the diseased, dying or dead trees as well as a host of invasive species like the rose and honeysuckle the same as you guys. we also have a beautiful mature grove of black walnut but unfortunately many other native species will not thrive or even grow under them because of the toxin they produce. we are fortunate to have a few really large dogwoods as well as lots of their saplings coming up and all the wildlife love them, plus they are so aesthetically pleasing. deer are our biggest problem, we cant afford to fence the entire property so we just usually put small fence circles around seedlings we find or plant. thanks for all your really relevant and well researched content it keeps us all coming back!
and on that GET BEES in the spring (almost here) not that hard, depending on the level you want to go to, but 2 or three hives would be plenty for your space. I'm quite sure you have some locals that can and will help you out. I've never met an organic farmer/beekeeper I didn't LOVE.
Have you checked out Tom Wessels, ecologist Professor in NH, leads walks and writes about forest forensics? Fascinating and not so much for the basic knowledge of reading terrain but for the morsels of thoughtful information and potentials about the future of species that come out of him as asides. I recommend searching out all his interviews especially around climate change and species pressure and such and just listen to his asides. For instance, hemlocks skipped a millennium when scientists age hemlocks back thousands of years. They existed for thousands of years, then totally vanished for a thousand years, then were/are back for thousands of years after. Mystery. They don’t know why. Will hemlocks do that again? Will soils do that regarding invasive earthworms? Who knows! We don’t know! Check him out. He also said a really interesting thing regarding beech and beech bark. I cannot repeat it correctly. It has to do with what you wrote below about the mother tree sending out roots. I’m with you on this journey in southern Vermont (also a Brooklyn transplant). 😊
Some people with Homesteads use something called IV Organic to protect their trees and bushes from insects, rabbits and deer. Would that be an option for your trees? Does it come in a natural color? 😁Hey, maybe plant some fairytale, natural deer fence brambles, thorns, etc. all around your property, so no deer get to Rapunzel's tower. It's just bad if the deer like their taste and munch the thorny vines away. Borrow a pack of barking dogs to run them off first. 🦌They are such a beautiful animal though. So, did the deer do lots of damage this Winter?
Aesculus? Ohio buckeye and horsechestnut are both native, provide a plentiful food source for wildlife, and while not towering as an oak or hickory certainly would overshadow those hornbeams. Liriodendron (tulip) also could be a large over-story for a layer. Not going to provide too much for wildlife except habitat though. Sassafras could help too.
I would love to see Summer's plan for Morgans " gold shaw farm " or Jason and brooks " cog hill farm" or garden Answer's property to Amp up the natives and wild life! And youtube crossovers are great! Also this property needs a pondless waterfall Or stream.... Ed the pond professor needs to come put in a water feature!! Are we not going to replace the sugar maple trees?? Seems like I never hear native maple mentioned aren't they resistant to ash borer ect?! I have one ...it wasn't great for her in town but there were 100s of them here in nw ohio planted in the 1880s-1980's lining the streets People are cuttin them down left and right now and not replanting trees
I know this may sound totally bizarre but maybe an option. Garden cemeteries are very old, beautiful cemeteries that Frederick Olmsted used as inspiration for his parks. They're known to be built in interesting areas like glacial drums with beautiful ancient trees much older than the graves themselves. I live in wny and spend my free time exploring old cemeteries but my favorites are always the garden ones because the flora & fauna is unlike anything else around. The trees are often the stars of the show but even the mosses are pretty crazy. In the 1800s people were buried in wooden caskets so I'm guessing they provide excellent nutrients to feed everything. Most of these cemeteries suffer from a bit of neglect as well which honestly seems to help preserve the old species. Maybe your local, Victorian cemeteries will have some inspiration on planting options for your forest. Things that you wouldn't normally consider but that could thrive where you live.
Wow!! Just started watching your videos and the care and scrutiny you give to every little detail is so impressive. The deer problem seems like such a huge hurdle and I can't help but think what good it would do to have a proper population of predators in the area, but I'm sure that's not even remotely an undertaking that you could / should have to handle. I just think about the success that Yellowstone had with reintroducing and wish we could do that more places, but there's so many factors to consider especially safety for the predators and for the people. Anyways, fascinating videos!
Sad state of forests. Disease and insect enemies. Unbalanced predators vs prey. Fences keep out deer but that’s not sustainable. Rabbits without predators are probably as big a problem. Then climate change contributes to the whole issue. We really have messed things up.
What a timely video. You really have to look out for greedy officials ready to sacrifice common good greenery. Just like in Singapore recently where the highest paid ministers and MPs actually approved the clearing of a conservation forest for property development (as usual) but was later found out by the public. They then shifted the entire blame to 2 lower ranked officers for inaccurate information. Did we pay scholars good money to be so easily fooled? but the entire area of forest is long gone. Worse is not even the minister had to step down for such gross and outrageous 'mistake'.
If it helps, y'all might think about getting in touch with local woodturners. They would love some of that old hardwood. And the ironwood has some value for certain wood workers. That might help offset the costs a bit. And have artistic usage.
I stayed in W. Virginia up on a mountain.. in the 70s. The land owner, wife and child lived alone up there in a cabin. They told us that they had cut down one of those Chestnut trees. They got lots of lumber out of it. They had land but nothing else. So it had to be. The remaining trees did not get cut down because they were just too big to tackle. The family had 80 acres of hills and trees. The Chestnut trees weren't everywhere, but the ones I saw here and there, were mighty, healthy and very old. It was a nice experience, so if you can find and plant those, the world will be a better place. 😎💕
Gold Shaw Farm in Vermont propagates some type Chestnut. That's all very interesting, I see some people talk about using firewood as a regenerative source not realizing the pressures our forest are under.
im surprised y'all have any deer left in your area. a lot of parts of america completely culled their deer population with everyone recreationally hunting during covid lockdowns. y'all should harvest that abundance.
I wonder if the biodiversity you are bringing to the area through the meadow might help you out here fight back the invasive that have taken root in your woods. The birds from the meadow might come in and help.
I love the little notes on screen with more cool info. For example what trees to start with to get a landscape back in shape. I guess thats why birch trees are a favr of me. Beside the fact i grew up underneath a rare very big one for the first part of my life. My family still drives by that house to check if it still standing. Its bigger then a 3 story house. The area my old neighbourhood stands was once a gardencenter. I guess my roots are literally a garden in a garden. Lol. My dream is to one day go back to that house with my own family if i evet find a lovely guy.
Yes, need sun glasses for snow on sunny day. Look up "Snow blindness" You don't have a problem of too many deer, you have a problem of not enough wolves. seems to take wolves an awful long time to recollinate a place they've been extirpated from. They just came back to the newfoundland island in the last few years.
Wow didnt know dear ate so much thats why u need a predator or human steward to manage the land. So the natural balance isnt disturbed. Really love what u and ur flock are doing summer. Really inspiring for us viewers. Whether we have a small or big green space. To slowly turn it into a natural space.
I've come to the conclusion that most foresters suggest cutting down the funky shaped trees mostly because of lumber value, the straighter, more boring trees with less large climbable branches, have more timber value so they're taught to cut the others down
A friend of Sean's (from Edible Acres) also gave me a yellowhorn that he thinks will do well. Nut producing tree from asia, beautiful and edible flowers as well. Likely has a taproot. Sean tells me they grow very slowly though and the other things they have overtook them quickly
I'm shocked we haven't seen any black locust on the land, considering this was used for marginal grazing in the past and you'd often see it introduced for fence posts and the like. That and Rhus. We don't have either of those. I'm on the fence about introducing black locust (every pun intended), but it is such a useful tree and is native to Pennsylvania, further south, which is another interesting experiment of bringing in plants that are just a smidge further south of us given the trajectory of the warming climate.
I don't agree with removing trees they fall over and provide a lot of insects and will give feed to the woodpecker also it will a lot of oxygen to the ground then I would leave pigs in the woods to make the soil fertile and airy and then I would plant the wild hyacinth in the woods that would be my first choice
I am only 12 minute through the video so don't shoot me if she mentioned it later in the video but my bet is that one of the reasons that forest isn't doing to hot is because the old plant nursery on the site was probably a hot spot for the introduction of invasive pests. It would be interesting to do a study of the sit and the surrounding area to see what invasive pests are present and how far that have made it from what I imagine to be ground zero.
I don’t know nearly enough about this, but have you thought of native maple trees? I have lived in MA most of my life and often see maples near oak, beech, and birch, and not far from conifers. I know maple can be expensive, but they are colorful and native. My thinking is that the deciduous and coniferous species don’t just stick with their own but interpenetrate to a degree. Maybe some white pine? Lastly, what about dogs for the deer? You’d probably need more than one, but you could always invite dog-owning friends over to let their dogs poop in your forest 😂.
I didn't mention it much in this video, but our native red, sugar, and striped maple are doing well enough in the woods. Hopefully we don't have to do planting of those because in the area they are fenced, their seedlings will be able to come up. Same with white pine. We see small seedlings everywhere, so hopefully they will start "doing their thing"....That being said, sugars are not found in the area that is fenced-only reds. If you go further south, where I'm originally from-that's not the case. The acid rain from decades of coal-burning really were a detriment to our sugar maples down there because it was acidifying the soil. That begins to lock up nutrients for trees. We likely won't bring dogs in. Likely. Sad thing because I grew up with lots of animals, but our partner is so highly allergic to them. So we'll see! We do invite our neighbors dogs on though from time to time! They like to run through the wild and agree dogs can be really good guardians to stave off deer.
Is there a way to contact the dnr and get some sort of special deer herd culling acception for hunting when the herd has reached pest level on your land? This is a common issue, we have a large heard where I live in a town and when hiking in the woods it's actually a health hazard the amount of deer poop there is on the deer trails.
Love your videos, very entertaining; as well as educational. Thinking of your deer exclusion problem...couldn't you take what you think out,(standing dead/diseased), and use that for some type of natural barrier, like slash pile walls, o even more organized hedge row/wooven wooden type barriers? Just maybe small areas to start...just thinking out loud. I see a lot of debris that you're going to need to do something with, besides burning for heat. Thanks for all the care, and time that you both put into making these videos!
Oh yes, for sure. You need quite a lot of dead slash to build up a proper "fence" but as you saw from the video, we're using that around the perimeter of our fence to prevent any jumping over. Also, you can do some chop-and-drop and build it up over time and those become little oases of regrowth.
Why don't you rent out the forest to some deer hunters? That's what a lot of people do in Michigan, they come and hunt out a lot of deer and thin the population
Thanks for these videos. It’s interesting to see the thought process when you have a large area to steward. I’m in the middle of designing my Douglas Tallamy-influenced food forest for my .6 acres, so I have some suggestions for the area you’re setting up for foraging. Prunus americana, Morus rubra (I think you’re on the northern end of its historical range so it’s probably worth a try), Amelanchier alnifolia or other serviceberry varietals, and Prunus serotina. Good luck!
If I’m not mistaken, if you fenced off some open areas and planted bird friendly plants, shrubs and understory trees, wouldn’t you bring in more wild birds to eat all the insects that are destroying your trees? The balance of nature here is way off without the wolves and mountain lions; ergo, the deer have taken over and stripped all the natural lower level flora that brings in the birds and helps nourish the forest floor for your trees. Weak under nourished trees cannot survive. I can see that all your natural forest ferns are gone, as well.
Hey John, we'd love to find local birds that would eat those gypsy moths. They were accidentally introduced here, so aren't native, and super fuzzy, so they probably aren't that palatable to most birds. We haven't noticed any bird species wanting to eat them either. But perhaps there is one out there that will! And we do actually have ferns. Not in the area where I was walking because the canopy is too open there, but we do in the shadier areas.
I remember listening to the forester (from an earlier episode) say that the when the american chestnuts were struck with disease in the late 19th century, the govt undoubtedly removed chestnuts that werent infected and were fighting back against the disease. It reminded me that nature's way of curing itself is just to continue living for as long as possible. So if you cut out all the beech seedlings, the next generation of trees that would naturally fight the inherited disease would be prematurely eliminated. Rewilding with nursery trees isn't ideal because they often stem from cuttings, so arent as genetically diverse. All this is to say, if wild chestnuts are now living to an average of 30-40 years in the wild- a significant increase over their lifespan a century ago- maybe you should leave the beech seedlings so that they figure out through the generations how to fight back. I have ZERO educational basis for this opinion but I think being a better steward of the land means allowing more of the land to steward itself.
We definitely won't cut beech seedlings or ash that is not infected by emerald ash borer, for instance. Beech, like many trees, sprout from the root base of an infected tree, however, will not miraculously recover, however, because it's the same genetic stock as the parent plant, which it is sprouting from. So root sprouts and seedlings are two different beasts, per se. Thanks though for bringing up this point because it further clarifies it for other folks.
I understand thinning out to get the trees you want to grow faster but if you want true old growth then you will want to leave it alone completely. We don't allow nature to clear forest undergrowth with fire as it used to in younger forests, most old growth doesn't have much under story since light is mostly blocked by the trees.
Well education isnt everything experience and knowledge helps out a lot too.
Its good to see more people care about our back yards and forests. Keep the knowledge coming, neighbor.
One thing I learned over years of watching forest is that they exist in a state of chaos. death and disease is a normal and expected thing within forests and nature. humans have this weird distain for both death and chaos due to needing to feel in control and both those are largely out of our control.
Its nice to be out in the wood with saws, I love spending time trying to balance species populations. Management is fun, and clearing to open up the forest is really rewarding.
One thing I've learned over years of watching humans is that some people really like to micromanage, and many folks focus so much on dealing with immediate problems that their solutions to those problems end up making bigger, longer scale problems even worse.
Nature isn't centrally planned, so as humans we need to be careful about not doing too much central planning for nature.
Your knowledge is always impressive. Does your region have any global warming type programs to help buy trees to reforest? It’s so frightening to realize how many trees will be affected by disease alone.
There are some grant programs here. We applied for a grant right in the beginning, for which we sadly didn't receive. Though it was not clear in the grant, it was largely for unforested or deforested land-not land that already had second growth, transitional forest. That's something that the grantmakers are now going to make clear in the second round, based on what happened with us and others who took the time to apply. So we hope to find other creative strategies or programs that may be able to lend a helping hand.
What a project! I'm doing the same in Nova Scotia on 10 acres of forest and 2 acres of meadow - observe and interact. Parts of my forest are further along in succession with mature sugar maples and yellow birch, but other parts (which were logged) have no understory with all even aged trees mostly balsam fir and red maple. So far no Emerald Ash borers or woolly adelgids, but they have arrived in parts of the province so it's only a matter of time. I will be going out today to look for diseased beeches - thanks for the heads up!
Two questions:
1. Have you thought of anything in the Juglans genus? Black walnut, butternut, heartnut, japanese walnut etc...? I'm thinking in a polylculture with juglone tolerant species such as elderberry, hazel, and the hawthorns and pawpaws you mentioned. Deer have not touched my pawpaws, yet. Juglans trees are all easy to start from seed thus saving you start up costs.
2. Have you listened to any of John Kempf's talks? I'm sure you have, but if not, his expertise lies in maximizing the health and nutritional profile of agricultural crops, and claims (and has demonstrated) that healthy plants - those able to photosynthesis maximally thus registering high on the brix scale - are NOT susceptible to pests and diseases. Everytime I listen to his talks, I wonder how applicable this is to forest systems. Are our forests not as healthy as they could be which is why they are not able to defend against these pests and diseases? I've never heard him talk about forests, but he does talk about orchards. He underscores the importance of diversity of cover crops to get nutrients (macro and micro) cycling - which you're doing in the meadow. He also talks about various foliar sprays and soil drenches (pretty much all can be homemade) that can be applied to give the plants what they're lacking and boost the microbial activity unlocking more essential nutrients so that the plants can maximally photosynthesize and become immune to pests and diseases. Foliar spraying and soil drenching a forest is an insurmountable task, but I'm going to try some test areas. Your deer exclusion zone might be a reasonable size to invest time into feeding the microbes with both groundcovers and sprays/drenches. It will be very interesting to see what's in that seed bank.
I appreciate your work, Summer. Thank you. You are no longer in a Brooklyn apartment!
Very insightful questions, Jennifer. Thank you for further along the conversation and discussion here, especially for others to indulge in, as well. Your point of Juglans species-Yes! . We actually just harvested some black walnut seedlings from a nut grove here. I spoke with some of my counterparts here and there are SUCH a wide range of species that tolerate and don't care that there is juglone in the environment, that it's worth it. We have learned that butternut, unfortunately, has a disease that is killing it (Ophiognomonia clavigignenti-juglandacearum, which is butternut canker), and there are crews of people going out to find populations that haven't been hit by the canker. And Kempf's work would be applicable to forests too. You can tell this forest is operating at a subpar level. It IS stressed. We still need to get our compost game on so we can produce more compost tea sprays, but we think that will really overall benefit the land. We think even bringing in a mixutre from the old growth forest here to jumpstart it, would be sensible. We are somewhat actively pursuing someone who can do a compost tea spray over many acres. I say "somewhat" because it's one of many explorations we're doing. But we think that application can really help the forest (and even the newly planted meadow area).
@@FlockFingerLakes Great idea about the old growth forest inoculant! I'm thinking IMO (indigenous micro organisms) #1-4 would be the best way to accomplish that. That way you barely disturb the OG forest and, in the end, get a huge amount of spreadable material populated with diverse beneficials. I've tried collecting IMO to varying degrees of success. It requires trial/error/patience. Nigel Palmer's book The Regenerative Grower's Guide to Garden Amendments explains in detail and/or Chris Trump videos are invaluable or anything about Korean Natural Farming (KNF) would explain too.
I have heard of butternut canker. It's not stopping me from planting them as an experiment in small numbers. I'm terribly curious if, with a healthy immune system in a diverse system, these butternuts could ward off the disease? Perhaps it's a genetic roll of the dice, but maybe it's about having the right support plants nearby, and the right biology in the soil.
Since climate change is affecting forests, I wonder if you should look 100 miles south and see what is native in that region. Those trees might be the trees than can survive in your garden in the coming century.
Hi Diana, it's a very good point, and many forest managers are doing just that to see what they can glean from other eco-regions. There are interesting climate models that basically show what forest composition can look like in 10, 50, 100, 200 years from now. I'm originally from an area about an hour or more south of here (actually around 100 miles away), so there's a benefit to that because those are the habitats I grew up with as a child. Chestnut, for example, was a really prominent species in my home state of Pennsylvania, so using some of those habitats I am familiar with, is definitely helping inform the potential enrichment planting here in at least some of the forest.
I REALLY ENJOYED THIS VIDEO!!!
Thank You for ALL your efforts, plus putting these videos out there for more people to get to know how doing even their small part can be helpful! ❤️
If you were to only add the deer fence, it would regenerate, wouldn't it? Seems like that alone would cause a cascade of positive changes... With more diversity, some of your bug stressors would reduce. I think you have a great opportunity here to nurture this ecosystem!
Yes, if you recall the video we did on the remnant old growth at Smith Woods (ruclips.net/video/RUAfSqKG3DE/видео.html, placing up a deer fence allowed for the herbaceous growth, like spring ephemerals to rebound back in a short period of time. Smith Woods, however, was old enough and was never really cut, to have a nice, biodiverse woodland. We would just be trying to help our woods along with some more biodiversity to start, at least in part of the area that is fenced.
Birch you can also tap for a unique syrup!
We’re in mid Hudson valley and dealing with much of the same forest issues - ash was hit hard and we cleared a ton this year. We’re also looking at paw paw and native persimmon. We also planted native hazelnut and black cherry. The arborist suggested new elm cultivars and we are lucky to have some surviving american elms. Also would suggest looking at native mulberry and northern hardy pecans if you go Agro-forestry route
Yes to all of that. We planted one elm cultivar last year in the fenced area. Just to try it out. There will be a "nut" area that is at the base of the interstitial land here where we started some hazelnuts. We ordered 50 more to start. They are really affordable when just ordering bare root. Are the northern hardy pecans good producers? I know Sean from Edible Acres had one on his land. It would be great if they are. I know sometimes pecans need more growing season than what we have here. Mulberries we're thinking around the future chicken coop area so they can have the pure joy of eating those as well when they fall. It's such a treat for the chickens-that and elderberry. Thanks for your suggestions.
(If you plant for birch syrup, go with Betula Lenta, another black birch. It's the one with the distinctive anise/mint/rootbeer scent. Overall, you don't get as much syrup from birches as from maple, and it's easier to "burn" the flavour.)
"i'm laughing, but i'm laughing in pain and horror" MEEE, but seriously, the loss of so many trees even in a small 2 acre yard over my life since childhood is what led me to want to plant trees in the first place. also interesting about the chestnut, conveniently the soil where i am is like 60%+ sand, so my little seedlings bode well. also saw the comment about species recovery over time by leaving them be, i've already noticed some ash trees here that are thriving several years after all the ash trees in the area have died, so i have hope for them too, and these surviving ones are big old 60' ones with millions of 6'-10' children
Sounds like you have the start to really promising soil for chestnut. And I would keep an eye on those ash. You may have some resistant genes. We have some ash also in our woods that have no sign of emerald ash borer. We think it may be because they are further in the woods and have other species around them, which may just indicate again-the importance of biodiversity.
Interesting about the mountain lion. Thought I saw one years ago in the Phelps area where we lived in central NY, crossing the road at dusk following a well-known deer trail. It looked like a lion, but the color was not yellow, but darker. Everyone said I was crazy. Now I live in the foothills of Colorado and we have lots of mountain lions and guess what - they look just like what I saw in NY, including the color. So, not crazy. However, even with the lions, we have many mule deer because there are almost no wolves, just a few in isolated areas, and the ranchers do not want them re-introduced. I get why not, but even with all the hunting out here, the deer and elk are everywhere - beautiful and majestic, but totally unafraid of people and eating so much. I am not a fan of the industrial meat industry and eat almost none of their product anymore, but really don't have a problem with hunters putting deer and elk in their freezers. But I don't think they will ever put enough of a dent in the population to really make a difference. Love your channel - always learn something new and get to visit our old stomping grounds in NY.
There's definitely been plenty of sightings around the greater area, so you're probably not seeing things!
They have re introduce, very recently wolfs, they passed the law couple of years back, the goverment pay to ranchers, if any cattle gets killed , it happened recently. that will help with the population of deer and elk. but is very recently.
There's tons of sightings puma in the UK.
It's easier to make mistakes than it is for a cat to fly across an ocean/continent 😉
I hear you on the deer front. I have 2.2 acres in a suburban subdivision and I often have 2 herds of deer at 5-6 each per herd walking through my yard.
I want to plant a vegetable garden and create a native sanctuary on 2 acres of the land and I’m concerned with protecting all the plants. Our neighbor uses electrified fencing to keep them out of his garden.
We want to plant more native oaks, dogwoods, hollies, and other understory trees as well as native shrubs and I’m just worried they’ll eat everything.
Thanks for recording your journey on planting natives on your land. It helps me a lot since I’m so new to gardening.
Glad you can find this useful. A low-cost solution to fencing is that trident fencing we used in previous videos. Very easy to assemble yourself with a partner; and relatively affordable. Would be easy to do on 2 acres.
Can you hunt any of the deer? They really are a pest (more like a plague). I'm in NJ and they're everywhere here too. And they have no fear of humans; not even the does.
I really appreciate the tough decisions you have to make, ironically in the name of conservation.
The deer are hunted around here. There is a healthy population of hunters. It's just that there are SO many deer. Don't get us wrong-we love them. They are an absolute joy to watch. And quite entertaining after we collect the game cams too, but they can be so destructive to the vegetation of the area. The forest is so large here (at least for us) that it'll be interesting to see how different management of the various areas-from intensely managed to left to rewild alone-fenced and unfenced-will ultimately result in the composition of the forest.
Same here. The deer meander about, in the parking lot....and even go up to peoples' front doors if there are plantings. They have very little fear of people. This is in a condo development.
Maybe see if you can work with the state and claim “crop damage” to increase the number of deer taken from your property and target doe aggressively. Many homeless shelters and food pantry services will take venison to help those in need in your general area.
Northern Michigan also has a huge problem with thousands of dead and dying trees along highways caused by decades of road salt applications during the winter. One stretch of highway from Boyne City to Petoskey looked like a tree graveyard, as did long stretches of dying forests between Charlevoix and Traverse City. Add to that the effects of global warming, invasive boring insects, blights like destructive fungus, and you have a recipe for the destruction of the northern forests in upper Michigan. This past summer, road crews spent weeks cutting down dead trees around the area to prevent them from falling over roads during fall and winter storms. There is also a great increase in logging on private lands, which I believe was touched off by the huge increase in lumber prices in 2021 tempting people to log their lands for money - not thinking what that will do to the health of forests over time.
🦋🦋. It would be a solution. To have a hunting season there. 🦌🦌🦌There are hunters that don’t hunt for just sport . But to feed their family. Upstate.etc. So interesting Learning. About all of the trees 🌲🌳🍁and their vulnerabilities. . It is wonderful whatever you are doing. I’m a upstate NY country loving woman, there is wonderful soil there. All the best with your endeavors. 🍀🕊🍀🕊🍀🕊🦋🍁
Oh we definitely have extended hunting seasons here. And our neighbors hunt. But it doesn't quite make the impact you would expect.
Really appreciate your videos. This looks daunting
Thinking out loud here -- why isn't the state of New York acting against the numerous deer population? I am thinking game could be a very nutritious meat and a more sustainable alternative to beef
you should reach out to Mark Shepard about disease resistant agroforestry. he seems to have figured it out for cold weather areas.
Great video! Thanks for thinking through the species diversity.
I've tried to comment a few times with a link, but american forests just released some interesting stuff about saving ash with grafting to stump sprouts.
Have you all inspected the duff for jumping worms in the warm months? ANother issue with woodlands beyond deer.
I may have you mention it, but if you haven't added to your list consider hazelnuts as an understory and border plant!
Will have to hunt down the stump sprout graft research. To your question on jumping worms: we have not seen them here. Not saying they don't exist, but just haven't seen them. And we've planted about a dozen hazelnuts so far, east of the interstitial area, where we're creating more of a "nut zone". We ordered 50 more bare roots that we'll be picking up locally come April, so we're pretty jazzed about that!
@@FlockFingerLakes sweet. happy growing!
Wow one dear can kill/eat 4500 seedlings a day😧. My lord.
yeah, around 4200 seedlings. They need about 7 lbs of fresh weight, and they are browsers so they like to pick around like a smorgasbord.
That was a really interesting mix of species you chose. Have you considered some maple species (black, sugar, or red)?
Yes, the sugars are on the sloped area. We don't have them in this little region where we walked, but we do have red. For the must part, the maples are doing OK. The red, as I mentioned, had been hit a little less so by the gypsy moths. The sad thing about our reds here are that they had pretty much all been harvested and grew back in strange manners, which don't give strong structures for the trees. That being said, we have a healthy enough stock to regenerate, particularly in areas that are fenced in. We also have plenty of striped maple, which seems to be left alone by the deer.
Thanks for sharing - after living on former farmland that was clear cut and has regrown with many of the species you describe, I'm actually looking at the forest and trying to assess its health. Please keep us in the loop on your work on this! Best!
I am enjoying your videos very much. You seem very knowledgeable about forestry. I hope to learn as much as I can from you in the coming months.
This makes me feel that things happen for a reason. It must be sad and very surprising to learn that this forest is so unwell, but after the long road Flock has been on has led you there, its clear that you're meant to be there because you can help this forest. It's a truly rare union; Summer with her remarkable expertise and knowledge, Saunder with his hardworking spirit and eagerness to learn everything, Joey with his vision of beauty, and this piece of privately owned land that would have otherwise been left to decay. This feels like kismet. And the knowledge and inspiration you're sharing by documenting everything so splendidly is solid gold. You're a beacon, and its marvelous.
So interesting. It takes so much understanding and work and hope. Forest management is a BIG deal. I will worry with you. Some good ideas!!!!
Thank you for attempting to save 1 forest.
Thank you, You guys have a great channel. My goal is to buy some land in the lower Catskill area and restore it and create a future homestead.
Your knowledge is always impressive. Does your region have any global warming type programs to help buy trees to reforest? It’s so frightening to realize how many trees will be affected by disease alone.
12:58 I don't know if you are aware that the insect formerly known as the "gypsy" moth has been officially renamed by the Entomological Society of America, because "gypsy" is a derogatory ethnic slur. The new common name for this insect is "Spongy Moth." See the Entomological Society of America's Web page for the Better Common Names Project.
Thanks! Yes, a few folks made mention of it here. Didn't even realize that the original name was potentially derogatory even. Figured the name "gypsy" came from the fact that it traveled from place to place with ease. Spongy moth it is. But maybe I'll stick to the scientific name moving forward.
The whole time you were talking about the forest, I kept thinking about the Chestnut Blight, and how I've heard the American variety being replaced by the "European" variety. The European Chestnut is the only description I've heard.
I've never lived up North, so I'm not personally familiar with some of your native species, but I'm always intrigued by any kind of tree!
So I have only casually followed the Chestnut blight situation.
When you brought it up, I thought that was really good information you gave us.
I was wondering how you would be feeling about bringing in a non-native, yet similar tree, if you were to replace the American Chestnut.
As for whether or not your soil is "right" or "best" for Chestnuts, that may be true, but we humans have a tendency to try to make things perfect, and forget that nature always finds a way to work in the imperfect situations.
Pushing the boundaries of "what will work" could lead to very interesting natural results!
As for the Ash Borer, and other invasive insects, my mind goes to nature, and how to use it within itself.
Btw- how do you refrain from NOT spending the majority of your Winter time up there NOT walking thru the forest, stick in hand, poking through all those moth cocoons?!!!
I feel I might work myself into an obsession seeing as they are within arms reach!!
How frustrating to see such destruction by them!!
I've only just started my own exploration into Mycology, and even though it's been over a year of light study, there's soooo much which we don't know!
But my point is, I kept wondering what would happen if introducing the Cordyceps mushroom into the forest near the invasive insects, if that might help bring down the populations?
Doing that, and something else I do in my own neck of the woods is create inviting spaces for predatory wasps to help take down the non-beneficial insect populations.
Of course, both of those suggestions are not particular to non-beneficial insects!
So there is that.
But bringing in a diversity of trees, and herbaceous plants, as you're already planning on doing, should increase the populations of ALL the insects, so it shouldn't be a problem.
I know many a great mind has been up against the Ash Borer, so perhaps the Cordyceps road has already been tested?
I do not know.
But thinking outside the box cannot be a bad thing when it comes to these invasive insects!!
My mantra is-
You'll never know if it works unless you try it.
But if you don't try it,
it definitely WON'T work!
Of course, I'm a bit biased when it comes to mushrooms, and mycelium in regards to soil health.
And that's because I strongly believe it's the mycelium connections that create healthy soil, and keep the soil healthy.
As I mentioned in another comment, Paul Stamets has done some good experiments on treating ailing trees using mushroom tea to invigorate the tree's immune system.
Using the mushroom tea in exactly the same way as using compost tea, and I believe also using it in conjunction with compost tea, has brought some very good results.
I find everything you talk about with these trees to be very interesting. Just like the bulbs, I'll be following closely!
That darned snow!! ha!
I once was visiting family in Colorado, and there was a big snowstorm on Mother's Day!!
As a Southern girl, it blew my mind they were still "snowing" in mid-May, and no one batted an eye at it!
Down South, we start planting mid-March, so snow in May would be devastating!
Let's hope we get to see the bulb show before May!!
Keep up all the good work!
Y'all have all my good vibes as you trudge through those forest issues! ❤️
labor and cost is the only thing holding you back - go overboard on clearing out and see more diversity - also leave some trees and brushpiles - it is more about doing it than planning - it will be a work in progress always - you will never finish - try some stuff before ruling things out based on what the books say - they know nothing practically
Nice forestry vid! Gypsy moth was renamed to Spongy moth btw
Thanks for the up-to-date information!
Are gipsy moth food for certain birds? I feel your pain, living in Colorado , I have some concerns, the imbalance in Nature, reading Douglas Tallamy, and getting some hope and what to do to help our ecosystem when comes to gardening, planting natives. Yea some dead trees could be good house for not only birds, but also beneficial insects.I share your feelings, but probably, help Nature and let her do her best too. Good luck Summer, love your videos, and your brain storming, I do the same thing ha!
We haven't witnessed any native birds or other animals eating the caterpillars unfortunately. They are so hairy, I don't think they are very palatable. Would probably be like eating pasta with stiff hairs. haha.
Consider connecting with Tokachi Millennium Forest in Hokkaido, Japan for effective forest management, enrichment planting, canopy culling methods. Their head gardener is a great educator.
There is a forgotten agriculture forest that is roughly 4 hours south of you guys that I am dieing to have someone go to and investigate and do a video about. It is rapidly being lost to suburbia and is not protected. From what I have read it has many interesting food species and every year many are cut down..........could you please please go to it and investigate? It's to far for me here in Minnesota. There is only a couple of articles and one old video that I have found about it and that's it.
It's in Pennsylvania
What about Acer (Maple trees)? Many of these trees are hardy, attractive, and provide good wildlife refuge.
Yes, only mentioned in passing, but we have sugars, reds, and stripes here. Sugars more on the slope, in the area that hadn't been grazed. They are doing well enough. They were slightly defoliated by the gypsy moths last year-not as much as the oaks, but we know it'll be a bad year for them this year with the amount of egg sacs we're seeing on the trees.
Hi, why is it that deer is such a big problem? Is it not allowed to hunt ? Here we keep the population down with allowing hunt doing few times of the year. Of course you would need a hunting license and the license to the rifle and in parks there is a wildlife keeper/ forest tender ( I don’t know the English word for it 😆) but that way it is kept under control…. I hope it makes sense what I’m writing 😊 bye 👋 from Denmark 🇩🇰
Many hunters only want prize deer so [picky] hunters wont make up for lack of animal predators unfortunately. If they were willing to kill any type of deer they would be effective against overpopulation but i believe most go for the impressive deer only.
We’re allowed to hunt deer in certain parts of the country. You need a hunting license and there are dedicated seasons for hunting. Some seasons people are encouraged to hunt deer.
What sucks is when you have deer on your property but you live in a setting where there are quite a few people so you can only hunt if you ask everyone within a 100 yards if you can hunt the deer. That’s a lot of houses in a suburban setting.
Hi Tulie, yes, I know it's challenging for folks to understand in different parts of the world because it's such a localized issue. What you may have gathered in the video (and previous deer videos on the channel) is that deer are really primed as "edge species". They love and thrive in the edge habitats that humans ultimately create, which happens on homesteads, suburban plots, and even on the periphery of cities. Landscaped areas, fields, the edges of forests are their favorite habitats. You wouldn't really find them in deep, old growth forest. Perhaps if generations before us didn't cut down the forests, then we would be in a different situation. Hunting is harder in areas where there are high densities of people, so deer become fearless and quite "tame". Here in the country, we have more hunters, but it's really not enough to keep populations down. Additionally, as Vinski shared, and what was shared in this video, is that we have taken out their main predators: wolves and mountain lions. We do have coyotes, bobcats, and the occasional mountain lion here but in general-those animals (coyotes, bobcats) are smaller animals and generally rarely take out a mature, healthy deer. The biggest predators now are hunters and (unfortunately) people's automobiles.
@@FlockFingerLakes thank you for the explanation, it makes much more sense. I hope that your project succeed and that the forest get back to good health. It’s so impressive what you guys are doing at your land and your future plans for it. Love following along and seeing all you accomplish 👍😊 thank you for sharing. Much Love from Denmark 🇩🇰
Deer hunters would love permission to hunt your land in season. Have you ever considered allowing hunters in to help with your deer population?❄️💚🙃
Hunting is part of why there are too many deer. Wolves would be better...
@@Yanaschaf how so? Why is the hunting part of the problem?
@@tulle7358 exactly. I' say they're not hunting enough of them, lol.
@@Yanaschaf - the wolves avoid human areas. The deer use human areas as a shield and thus have no predators unless human hunt them.
Yes, there are hunters here. It doesn't really make a dent in the explosive population of deer. We would be keen to create more suitable habitat for our big predator animals to do more of the work.
you need to hunt deer to reduce the population - the coyotes aren't cutting it - look at them as an advantage and resource - donate to homeless shelters - without some serious deer depopulation you are not going to have much luck - without active management you are going to have constant problems, don't kill the coyotes - overall the plan is great - you will make some mistakes but try to be more experimental and take some chances, think about forage plots to take pressure off other areas
Not to fret, the deer are hunted around here. It doesn't make as huge a dent as one would think.
I HATE DEER SO MUCH! They empty out my bird & squirrel feeders within a day of us filling them up & chomp the heads off of our bulb flowers & crops. I’m 9 months pregnant & actually chased some away from our bird feeders swinging a pie iron - looking like a complete crazy person 🤪 I’d kill & eat them if I wasn’t afraid of chronic wasting disease.
The image of you 9 mos pregnant chasing the deer brought a smile to my face. Haha.
@@FlockFingerLakes haha! I’m actually +38 weeks pregnant, so I really shouldn’t be chasing deer 😅
Which birds/animals can eat gypsy moths? Invite them in.
They are an introduced species of caterpillar. We have not witnessed any animals or birds eating them. They have a very coarse, prickly fuzz on them, so they are not really palatable. More like a fuzzy piece of spaghetti. Yack!
I learn so much from this channel !
Thank you Summer 🌞❤️
I'm glad you ended on a good note. I found it sad to hear all the challenges. The eastern pines was the most upsetting for me I thought they were healthy. Do you want to add more of them? Or will the same insects affect them?
There are nice white pine seedlings in the understory, so I think by excluding the deer, those will have strong recruitment.
@@FlockFingerLakes that's great news
just found your channel. good stuff. you all thinking about doing some site specific seed collecting and cutting propagation to preserve your local genetic diversity? I know you mentioned bringing things in. if you find things in your watershed that seem to be resistant to the common problems you speak of maybe you can preserve those qualities at the same time preventing genetic bottlenecking. big ups neighbor! I'm out east hill way in the hollow at the headwaters.
Yes to getting local items. Our neighbors and cooperative extensions are really good for that as well as the Plant Societies here, particularly the Finger Lakes Native Plant Society since they have seed swaps and exchanges. We also found some more local nurseries-and we're trying some nurseries further south just because we know the seasons are a little warmer and those plants are probably more 'primed' for warm weather. Over time, we hope to have a solid seed collecting and seed bank program here. But that will take some time as well. Glad you found the channel! Much to explore in this region!
@@FlockFingerLakes radical! I think I heard/saw in one of your videos you have an og oak tree in your woods. I have a growing body of work documenting ancient trees through the medium of open air painting (although been focused primarily on fiber art these days). small show up at agava right now if youever pass that way. maybe we link up some day, would love to visit that tree. i could tell you where some more giants stand too. really stoked to see your enthusiasm. Sean and Sasha are down the road from me. haven't actually met them yet but have mutual friends. they were collecting phragmities from a patch near the road up from my house. its been a concern of mine but i want to avoid herbicide applications near the wetland at all cost. they said they were using the hollow stems to make bee habitats. so cool. have you talked to akiva silver from twisted tree? that dude is a champion. all love! ehaec.com
If the gypsy moths will eventually die from a bacteria, it seems like there must be a way to make a spray with that bacteria. I hope someone invents something.
Seems like a sensible idea. I'm not sure if folks have done work in that area. There is a variant of Bacillus thuringiensis specifically used to control caterpillars, but it doesn't make a distinction-and can affect ALL caterpillars. So as long as that bacteria is specific to gypsy moths and no others, then it may be useful to explore.
@@FlockFingerLakes figures it can’t be that simple. I’m in the willamette valley of Oregon, and just moved in with a friend on 8 acres of deciduous forest. It was also clear cut for farming and almost all our trees are the same age. BUT we have an entire Oregon white oak grove! I’ve learned how special they are because they’re being overrun by pine and fir that shades them out. The natives cleared the excess vegetation to prioritize oaks and maximize acorn production. I want to support our oaks, but we also have an unstable hill as a result of the clear cutting. Between landslide risk and forest fire, we have a lot of competing demands. I was struck by the number pests and diseases threatening your trees, and it’s so scary to think that could happen in the PNW some day. We do have tree crotches though, and at least one very large oak split down the middle. You can see the space between it fluctuate in the wind, so dangerous. Haha and we’re dealing with invasive Holly that has gotten massive. I need to try and kill them before they produce too many berries. Wish us luck! I’m loving the channel and learning from you!
Have you looked into bringing in trees from Newfoundland? We have loads of species like what your talking about.
Is there a way to set up an indoor area to grow some of the trees effected by different problems and let them grow for a year or two than plant them in the forest after you've taken down the infected trees?
While I wish people could live to be 500 years old I think even 200 would be handy for people in your situation who want to set up Long term projects like this.
I'm not into hunting myself but maybe New York could hand out deer hunting license.
As I was watching your video I was thinking about a guy here on RUclips who had posted a possible solution for deer browse on young trees. He uses homemade bone sauce and actually sells it. His channel is Perma Pastures Farm, might be a way to protect seedlings, its' non-chemical based so it wouldn't harm the deer, just deter them.
I feel for you as here in Normandy my small woodland is being decimated by chalarose on the Fraxinus excelsior.
So many trees are under siege by introduced pathogens. It is very extremely worrying. Since my childhood so many trees have gone thru Dutch Elm Disease and other diseases.
I'm not averse to having carpinus woodlands as they are so rare these days.
Maybe you can plant some Tilia and corylus?
Most of my understory is hazel, Corylus avellana which is great for wildlife. Taxus baccata is trying to come in but deer destroy most of them when young.
Deer are becoming a huge problem here too, an issue which the nature conservancy here are not taking seriously yet. Hedera helix has disappeared from the woodlands thru over-browsing here I've noticed. A great pity as it is a huge food source for so much wildlife. Wolves are gradually making their way back up north so maybe they will help a bit but I can't see humans coexisting happily with these magnificent animals easily. At least not here.
I just hope that we are not on the verge of an ecological collapse!
Will we have to plant some totally exotic resistant tree such as ginkgo to have tree cover?
So many questions!
Keep up your good work !!
Control herbivory, control invasives, and your tree stand will be fine. To your point, they won’t bother pawpaw or ramps, but those persimmons will be toast without exclusion
This is a lot like the conversations my husband and I have been having for the past few years! Here in southern Ontario, we've had two horrible years for gypsy moth, but I'm fairly certain that they were mostly knocked back by the virus that they are susceptible to last summer. We had thousands of caterpillars in June 2021 (as in 2020) but virtually no moths appearing later in the summer in 2021. While last winter we had egg masses everywhere, this winter there are none that I have found. So hopefully for you if the virus didn't hit them last summer, it will this year. We have been focusing on growing trees from seed that are resistant to gypsy moth. Perhaps not all native to our area, but from further south, thinking ahead with climate change.
Tulip poplar, Kentucky coffeetree, red mulberry, honeylocust sycamore are some that we have been adding to the mix. Hackberry and cucumber tree as well, though less resistant. Black locust is also resistant and black walnut seems to manage ok, but we already have a lot of it.
I live in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan, and the deer population is also soaring. There are so many that they even browse trees and shrubs that they normally would not touch; for instance, they used to leave lilacs completely alone, but now go after them avidly. I have a very hard time starting small native trees and must put fencing around any new seedling until it reaches a safe height. People tend to think of deer as sweet, benign creatures, not realizing that any species out of balance with its ecosystem (including of course humans) will become destructive to that very ecosystem. Thank you for this great video - I have shared it to Facebook.
Good on you for taking on the forestry project. I think people should consider 'grooming' or 'sculpting' wind/sun/rain corridors on their land. Look at air flow as well as sun/shade. I think because you have increased woodpecker population, you might not need to remove everything that is diseased to increase insect predation. Do plan success which could include your aspen/alder/birch pioneers. Grow food. Best.
Wonderful teachings for me, a 100% citylady, living in the Tropics, who only knows about Plants in Pots. I don't want to miss a single word of what you say. Beautiful magistral infos. May Mother Nature rewards your unbelievable efforts with love, sunny days, KETO deers, and lots of Very-Dead f---ing and disgusting bichorros.
Went to google, yes they are some birds that might eat the gypsy moth caterpillar, however these insects are non native, those are the ones we don't want in a native forest of course, thank you for keep my mind wondering.Blessings
Chestnut can thrive in many soil types. I wouldn’t rule it out.
I just picked up American Chestnut from a neighbor who has it growing in wet, lush lawn-that gets kind of swampy, not sandy at all.
Also-on Beech:
I’ve watched beech with bark disease for many years-
It isn’t a fast death sentence, and it isn’t like an apocalyptic dying off happens.
Sure, some beech don’t get past 2’ round, but they last a long time with this disease, and in the meantime host chanterelles and wildlife with their edible beech nuts.
I’d never consider clear-cutting a section of what you perceive as ‘dying forest’.
All forest is dying-it’s just a matter of time-
But it’s also growing.
It’s also FIGHTING these diseases afflicting it, and by culling you remove potential for disease resistance.
Let it be-at least for several years.
Add nutrients and help when you can (deer enclosure), but stepping back and watching and learning a good decade before serious intervention is likely the smartest thing you can do.
Humans want to jump in and mess with nature too fast, and end up trampling and destroying aspects they’re not aware of.
I’ve hiked woods for years-and watched where people intervened, and where they stepped back.
Yes-remove invasives
No-don’t cull diseased or weak unless absolutely necessary
Ok deer is not the number one issue in NYS. I live in NYS suburbs with some forests and the number one issue is PEOPLE. Where I live, people are cutting down acres of forests for agriculture, recreation, solar panel farm, condos. I see deer on a lawn eating grass peacefully, but couple blocks down, humans literally chippings tons of trees.
You have got the forestry / tree plan part of your mission down pat! But have you read Sepp Holzer?? - His approach could really help with exactly what your'e trying to accomplish regarding the soil and the understory!! My naturalist tendencies tell me you could really use some massive hugulkultured mounds (each made of the wood + chips of the trees you're taking down) all throughout the forest (to make magical islands of beautiful biota and shrooms). You could innoculate each island with mycelium & I'd want to cover them in a Sepp Holzer-esque mix full of quick biomass making soil healers and your craziest native self seeders. I very much respect what ya'all are doing and really love your passion and ethic!! You're amazing and I love your channel.
this was a very helpful video. we are in the process of removing all the diseased, dying or dead trees as well as a host of invasive species like the rose and honeysuckle the same as you guys. we also have a beautiful mature grove of black walnut but unfortunately many other native species will not thrive or even grow under them because of the toxin they produce. we are fortunate to have a few really large dogwoods as well as lots of their saplings coming up and all the wildlife love them, plus they are so aesthetically pleasing. deer are our biggest problem, we cant afford to fence the entire property so we just usually put small fence circles around seedlings we find or plant. thanks for all your really relevant and well researched content it keeps us all coming back!
Glad this has been useful for you Michael. :)
Watching this from the pacific northwest, and it almost seems like coniferous forests are more hardy? This seems very fragile
and on that GET BEES in the spring (almost here) not that hard, depending on the level you want to go to, but 2 or three hives would be plenty for your space. I'm quite sure you have some locals that can and will help you out. I've never met an organic farmer/beekeeper I didn't LOVE.
Have you checked out Tom Wessels, ecologist Professor in NH, leads walks and writes about forest forensics? Fascinating and not so much for the basic knowledge of reading terrain but for the morsels of thoughtful information and potentials about the future of species that come out of him as asides. I recommend searching out all his interviews especially around climate change and species pressure and such and just listen to his asides. For instance, hemlocks skipped a millennium when scientists age hemlocks back thousands of years. They existed for thousands of years, then totally vanished for a thousand years, then were/are back for thousands of years after. Mystery. They don’t know why. Will hemlocks do that again? Will soils do that regarding invasive earthworms? Who knows! We don’t know! Check him out. He also said a really interesting thing regarding beech and beech bark. I cannot repeat it correctly. It has to do with what you wrote below about the mother tree sending out roots. I’m with you on this journey in southern Vermont (also a Brooklyn transplant). 😊
Some people with Homesteads use something called IV Organic to protect their trees and bushes from insects, rabbits and deer. Would that be an option for your trees? Does it come in a natural color? 😁Hey, maybe plant some fairytale, natural deer fence brambles, thorns, etc. all around your property, so no deer get to Rapunzel's tower. It's just bad if the deer like their taste and munch the thorny vines away. Borrow a pack of barking dogs to run them off first. 🦌They are such a beautiful animal though. So, did the deer do lots of damage this Winter?
Aesculus? Ohio buckeye and horsechestnut are both native, provide a plentiful food source for wildlife, and while not towering as an oak or hickory certainly would overshadow those hornbeams. Liriodendron (tulip) also could be a large over-story for a layer. Not going to provide too much for wildlife except habitat though. Sassafras could help too.
Chesnutt Blight was 1904 (started) Putting in three here at my place in a couple of weeks.
I would love to see Summer's plan for Morgans " gold shaw farm " or Jason and brooks " cog hill farm" or garden Answer's property to Amp up the natives and wild life! And youtube crossovers are great! Also this property needs a pondless waterfall Or stream.... Ed the pond professor needs to come put in a water feature!!
Are we not going to replace the sugar maple trees?? Seems like I never hear native maple mentioned aren't they resistant to ash borer ect?! I have one ...it wasn't great for her in town but there were 100s of them here in nw ohio planted in the 1880s-1980's lining the streets
People are cuttin them down left and right now and not replanting trees
I know this may sound totally bizarre but maybe an option. Garden cemeteries are very old, beautiful cemeteries that Frederick Olmsted used as inspiration for his parks. They're known to be built in interesting areas like glacial drums with beautiful ancient trees much older than the graves themselves. I live in wny and spend my free time exploring old cemeteries but my favorites are always the garden ones because the flora & fauna is unlike anything else around. The trees are often the stars of the show but even the mosses are pretty crazy. In the 1800s people were buried in wooden caskets so I'm guessing they provide excellent nutrients to feed everything. Most of these cemeteries suffer from a bit of neglect as well which honestly seems to help preserve the old species. Maybe your local, Victorian cemeteries will have some inspiration on planting options for your forest. Things that you wouldn't normally consider but that could thrive where you live.
How was the spongy moth population this year? Were western NY and populations dropped considerably year 3 this year
Wow!! Just started watching your videos and the care and scrutiny you give to every little detail is so impressive. The deer problem seems like such a huge hurdle and I can't help but think what good it would do to have a proper population of predators in the area, but I'm sure that's not even remotely an undertaking that you could / should have to handle. I just think about the success that Yellowstone had with reintroducing and wish we could do that more places, but there's so many factors to consider especially safety for the predators and for the people. Anyways, fascinating videos!
Sad state of forests. Disease and insect enemies. Unbalanced predators vs prey. Fences keep out deer but that’s not sustainable. Rabbits without predators are probably as big a problem. Then climate change contributes to the whole issue. We really have messed things up.
What a timely video. You really have to look out for greedy officials ready to sacrifice common good greenery. Just like in Singapore recently where the highest paid ministers and MPs actually approved the clearing of a conservation forest for property development (as usual) but was later found out by the public. They then shifted the entire blame to 2 lower ranked officers for inaccurate information. Did we pay scholars good money to be so easily fooled? but the entire area of forest is long gone. Worse is not even the minister had to step down for such gross and outrageous 'mistake'.
I think you would find Roots And Refuge group very helpful to what you guys are doing 😉!! You guys are now in my prayers 🙏 ❤
If it helps, y'all might think about getting in touch with local woodturners. They would love some of that old hardwood. And the ironwood has some value for certain wood workers. That might help offset the costs a bit. And have artistic usage.
I stayed in W. Virginia up on a mountain.. in the 70s. The land owner, wife and child lived alone up there in a cabin. They told us that they had cut down one of those Chestnut trees. They got lots of lumber out of it. They had land but nothing else. So it had to be. The remaining trees did not get cut down because they were just too big to tackle. The family had 80 acres of hills and trees. The Chestnut trees weren't everywhere, but the ones I saw here and there, were mighty, healthy and very old. It was a nice experience, so if you can find and plant those, the world will be a better place. 😎💕
Gold Shaw Farm in Vermont propagates some type Chestnut. That's all very interesting, I see some people talk about using firewood as a regenerative source not realizing the pressures our forest are under.
Go for Miyawaki Method in one section please :), old growth natives only
im surprised y'all have any deer left in your area. a lot of parts of america completely culled their deer population with everyone recreationally hunting during covid lockdowns. y'all should harvest that abundance.
I wonder if the biodiversity you are bringing to the area through the meadow might help you out here fight back the invasive that have taken root in your woods. The birds from the meadow might come in and help.
I love the little notes on screen with more cool info. For example what trees to start with to get a landscape back in shape. I guess thats why birch trees are a favr of me. Beside the fact i grew up underneath a rare very big one for the first part of my life. My family still drives by that house to check if it still standing. Its bigger then a 3 story house. The area my old neighbourhood stands was once a gardencenter. I guess my roots are literally a garden in a garden. Lol. My dream is to one day go back to that house with my own family if i evet find a lovely guy.
Yes, need sun glasses for snow on sunny day. Look up "Snow blindness"
You don't have a problem of too many deer, you have a problem of not enough wolves. seems to take wolves an awful long time to recollinate a place they've been extirpated from. They just came back to the newfoundland island in the last few years.
It will be interesting to see if they eventually make their way down here and how folks will react to it.
Wow didnt know dear ate so much thats why u need a predator or human steward to manage the land. So the natural balance isnt disturbed. Really love what u and ur flock are doing summer. Really inspiring for us viewers. Whether we have a small or big green space. To slowly turn it into a natural space.
Educational and informative. Keep up the good work.
I've come to the conclusion that most foresters suggest cutting down the funky shaped trees mostly because of lumber value, the straighter, more boring trees with less large climbable branches, have more timber value so they're taught to cut the others down
Think about tree tubes made for protection from deer. They might provide some protection for the trees you bring in.
If Deer browse is such an issue because Deer are overpopulated then increasing the hunting yield would probably be a good idea.
Black locust could be considered invasive, but grows fast, fixes nitrogen, produces medical/edible flowers, and is thorny enough to deter deer
A friend of Sean's (from Edible Acres) also gave me a yellowhorn that he thinks will do well. Nut producing tree from asia, beautiful and edible flowers as well. Likely has a taproot. Sean tells me they grow very slowly though and the other things they have overtook them quickly
I'm shocked we haven't seen any black locust on the land, considering this was used for marginal grazing in the past and you'd often see it introduced for fence posts and the like. That and Rhus. We don't have either of those. I'm on the fence about introducing black locust (every pun intended), but it is such a useful tree and is native to Pennsylvania, further south, which is another interesting experiment of bringing in plants that are just a smidge further south of us given the trajectory of the warming climate.
would a large patch of old growth black raspberry keep the deer away from newer growth on the inside of the patch?
Sounds like hers mismanagement. They need more hunting in New York.
I don't agree with removing trees they fall over and provide a lot of insects and will give feed to the woodpecker also it will a lot of oxygen to the ground then
I would leave pigs in the woods to make the soil fertile and airy and then I would plant the wild hyacinth in the woods
that would be my first choice
I am only 12 minute through the video so don't shoot me if she mentioned it later in the video but my bet is that one of the reasons that forest isn't doing to hot is because the old plant nursery on the site was probably a hot spot for the introduction of invasive pests. It would be interesting to do a study of the sit and the surrounding area to see what invasive pests are present and how far that have made it from what I imagine to be ground zero.
I don’t know nearly enough about this, but have you thought of native maple trees? I have lived in MA most of my life and often see maples near oak, beech, and birch, and not far from conifers. I know maple can be expensive, but they are colorful and native.
My thinking is that the deciduous and coniferous species don’t just stick with their own but interpenetrate to a degree. Maybe some white pine?
Lastly, what about dogs for the deer? You’d probably need more than one, but you could always invite dog-owning friends over to let their dogs poop in your forest 😂.
I didn't mention it much in this video, but our native red, sugar, and striped maple are doing well enough in the woods. Hopefully we don't have to do planting of those because in the area they are fenced, their seedlings will be able to come up. Same with white pine. We see small seedlings everywhere, so hopefully they will start "doing their thing"....That being said, sugars are not found in the area that is fenced-only reds. If you go further south, where I'm originally from-that's not the case. The acid rain from decades of coal-burning really were a detriment to our sugar maples down there because it was acidifying the soil. That begins to lock up nutrients for trees.
We likely won't bring dogs in. Likely. Sad thing because I grew up with lots of animals, but our partner is so highly allergic to them. So we'll see! We do invite our neighbors dogs on though from time to time! They like to run through the wild and agree dogs can be really good guardians to stave off deer.
Is there a way to contact the dnr and get some sort of special deer herd culling acception for hunting when the herd has reached pest level on your land? This is a common issue, we have a large heard where I live in a town and when hiking in the woods it's actually a health hazard the amount of deer poop there is on the deer trails.
You are inspiration to me. I'll see what I can do in my country, 🇮🇳.
Love your videos, very entertaining; as well as educational. Thinking of your deer exclusion problem...couldn't you take what you think out,(standing dead/diseased), and use that for some type of natural barrier, like slash pile walls, o even more organized hedge row/wooven wooden type barriers? Just maybe small areas to start...just thinking out loud. I see a lot of debris that you're going to need to do something with, besides burning for heat. Thanks for all the care, and time that you both put into making these videos!
Oh yes, for sure. You need quite a lot of dead slash to build up a proper "fence" but as you saw from the video, we're using that around the perimeter of our fence to prevent any jumping over. Also, you can do some chop-and-drop and build it up over time and those become little oases of regrowth.
Why don't you rent out the forest to some deer hunters? That's what a lot of people do in Michigan, they come and hunt out a lot of deer and thin the population
Why not do seasonal deer hunt to keep the population under control? how we do it with boars here in Germany.
talk to bob or ian Wallace for chestnut hill outdoors about trees and chestnuts they developed a chestnut that is immune to the chestnut blight
Thanks for these videos. It’s interesting to see the thought process when you have a large area to steward. I’m in the middle of designing my Douglas Tallamy-influenced food forest for my .6 acres, so I have some suggestions for the area you’re setting up for foraging. Prunus americana, Morus rubra (I think you’re on the northern end of its historical range so it’s probably worth a try), Amelanchier alnifolia or other serviceberry varietals, and Prunus serotina. Good luck!
And I wrote my comment before finishing the video. You mentioned most of my ideas right there at the end.😂
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If I’m not mistaken, if you fenced off some open areas and planted bird friendly plants, shrubs and understory trees, wouldn’t you bring in more wild birds to eat all the insects that are destroying your trees? The balance of nature here is way off without the wolves and mountain lions; ergo, the deer have taken over and stripped all the natural lower level flora that brings in the birds and helps nourish the forest floor for your trees. Weak under nourished trees cannot survive. I can see that all your natural forest ferns are gone, as well.
Hey John, we'd love to find local birds that would eat those gypsy moths. They were accidentally introduced here, so aren't native, and super fuzzy, so they probably aren't that palatable to most birds. We haven't noticed any bird species wanting to eat them either. But perhaps there is one out there that will! And we do actually have ferns. Not in the area where I was walking because the canopy is too open there, but we do in the shadier areas.
Also remember cherry, elms and tulip poplar