Videogame Discourse is Broken | Design Dive
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- The state of videogame discourse continues to erode with every major AAA release. It's the result of a broken system that inhibits players, fans, and aspiring developers from learning more about the industry. And in this episode, I want to explore where the points of failure lie and the issues that manifest.
For reference: all footage of Cyberpunk 2077 is recorded on an Xbox One.
All music in this episode is by TeknoAxe:
www.teknoaxe.com
Design Dive is the video essay series on video game development and design that is part of the AI and Games RUclips channel.
[00:00] Introduction
[01:28] Breakdown in Communication
[05:26] Understanding Game Development
[07:53] Access to Knowledge
[13:15] Simplified Marketing
[17:31] Press, Pundits & Propaganda
[25:48] The End Result
[29:05] Moving Forward
[31:07] Still Hopeful
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AI and Games is a RUclips series on research and applications of Artificial Intelligence in video games. It's supported through and wouldn't be possible without the wonderful people who support it via Patreon and RUclips memberships.
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#Discourse #Gamers 
Игры
This is an unfortunate part of life in many areas. A lot of people are just ignorant, happy to be so, and completely unreasonable when it comes to their own perceived worth. If I don't know about something, I tend to attempt to learn what I can in the time I can manage, and/or I defer in good faith to those who have more experience than I do. With a caveat of critical thinking that I don't blindly assume everyone knows what they're doing just because they say so - context depending.
The point is that growing up, I undoubtedly had selfish and arrogant presuppositions about the world. And likely I still do in some areas I might not be fully conscious about, but this is something I learned very early on when being on the receiving end as a child. Because of this I always attempted, going forward, to deal with others in good faith because of this controversial idea that others are people too.
The world we've built around ourselves as a species is an incredibly complex mesh of different technologies, systems, processes, and methods. Even jobs considered of the lowest status contain lots of stress and are part of a framework of connected activities that those of us not in that industry, likely know very little about. Trying to comprehend everything all at once will likely only result in a complete blowout for even a very intelligent person.
But ultimately, it comes down to the same old lesson: Treat people as people rather than things put on the earth for your ego-centric gratification. Be humble, be aware, be grateful and give people the benefit of the doubt when you don't understand or know about the context in which they are operating.
It's great that you made this video, but tragic that you needed to.
This needs to be pinned. These are the life lessons that people should be teaching each other.
Respect
Your comment is very important for people to see. It's the truth.
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
I heard this quote sometime in high school. I can't say it's kept me from acting in such a way, but if nothing else it reminds me to admit when I don't know something.
@@jkruse05 It'sa great way at practicing restraint. It's okay to admit that you don't know something. And that's fine! But it's up to you to do the work and learn and try to figure things out. The problem with American culture is that we view being told that "we're wrong" as admittance of weakness. So rather than think things out, we yell and scream and shout over other people to "win" rather than learn. The hyper partison nature politics has made that even worse.
As a former Ghost Recon Breakpoint designer for 3 years, I can testify how painful is the struggle between the community expectation, the marketing, the creative direction, the brand direction, the technical constraints, and finally your design expertise. This is a permanent fight against multiple invisible enemies.
On top of all those elements, come the business and financial constraints, because any company has to be accountable for the shareholders, publisher, or bank loan in the end. So yeah, sometimes even if all the experts in the development team are saying that it's too soon to launch the game, the company is doing it anyway for financial planning reasons.
I cant imagine myself working on a legendary series that aimed for a different direction or tried to be closer to the series principles and also under time constraints my respects man as a dev and also a ghost recon fan since the first one back on PC
I always hated this because I can see where the designers and developers were trying to go with Breakpoint. But it seemed like they never had the time to finish. I love the game personally its me and my buddy's favorite game to play together. But I feel like there was too much to be added and not enough time to add it
Thanks for your work on such a great game that doesn’t deserve the hate it got
I think publishers need to restructure their road maps. They need to rethink and discuss with their developers the actual timeline or duration that these games need in order to be "finished" and the two need to agree with each other. If the dev says this needs 5years then the publisher will then analyze if the budget can hold it for 5 years. They will come to a point that they will have the exact figures and numbers that they both agree with. In the end, this just needs to be a give and take. Publishers need to hear what devs need to say and vice versa.
As a Ghost Recon Wildlands lover, I hated that Breakpoint removed the things I found most fun about Wildlands. I LOVED the finger of god drone+AI partners. Breakpoint removed both. I hate that devs keep removing the things I find most fun. Farcry removed radio towers. FarCry and AssCreed removed the minimap cause it was too effective at it's job. Dumb reason to remove them.
This is why Bungie’s Vidocs for the halo games were always so compelling, we got to see insight into the actual development process, even if it was a quick look at wire models on an animator’s screen.
Bungie also gave a lot of *very good* developer talks back in their Halo days. Hopefully having parted ways from Activision we can see some more of that again.
Their vidoc videos on the limited and legendary editions of the old games were super important in helping me decide whether or not to enter games. The depiction of the crunch specifically was eye opening to me and helped me to me make an informed career choice as a teenager; that is to avoid corporate game dev career but focus on personal projects and academic pursuits. I don't think I would've been able to make that decision without seeing people sleeping at their desks and half jokingly talking about hardly ever seeing their family due to pressure from Microsoft in those Vidocs
Also similar, the dev commentary in Valve games. I loved hearing about their design choices and learning about the game's evolution.
Bungie still does vidocs for Destiny. My impression though is that these are more about marketing than actual behind-the-scenes information. It takes a third party like Noclip to actually get developers to say something about how their games were made.
They’re documentaries were the best, before big business took over and made corporate documentaries talking about how amazing everything is. LOL
It would be nice if more games featured "behind the scenes" features just like when you're buying a DVD or Bluray. But I guess even that is going out of fashion quickly with the advent of streaming.
I recently noticed that Disney+ actually puts trailers/interviews/gag reels in with a lot of their movies. That was a pleasant surprise.
I honestly have no idea why New Game Plus types of games don't just start adding in tidbids of game dev commentary throughout the experience. Or Roguelikes taking advantage of the multiple replayability of the medium to tell the stories of how they were made live through the process.
More devs need to borrow Valve's commentary node system. If I ever work on a commercial game I'd push hard for it.
good idea, and there are plenty of channels on youtube who do just that, NoClip being my favorite.. check them out!
The only game i can think of doing that is Klei's Mark of the ninja that had developer commentary in the levels that you can enable and interact with that talks about various things like art direction, the tech behind the sound recognition etc. Actually, Larian's Divinity 2 (not original sin) imcluded a pdf talking about the road to release and a lot of behind the scenes stuff.
I am also a software developer, and I must say 90% of projects that go bad do so because of management. Either our own, when the manager/sales rep promises something we cannot do/finish in the allotted time, or if the customer doesn't know what they need/want or keeps submitting change requests.
Even as an outsider to the gaming industry I can totally see many of the same issues at work.
Management: So we've got this feature in our software right?
Developer: Nope
Management: Oh, I just sold it to a client. How much work is it to build?
Developer: At least a few days
Management: Can you do it in half?
And that's the story of my life about how broken software gets released.
I look forward to WhatCulture's top 10 video on how discourse in gaming industry is broken.
"and for some reason, known only to the construction team, it's on fire!"
My god... That's just about as smile cracking funny as is beautifully accurate from what I've seen in my extremely short time yet.
I thought back to Bungie talking about how that E3 demo for Halo 2 had to very very carefully played, because in cases if you walked a meter out of the path for the demo the game would crash and the super powered dev units would melt!
I came down looking for this comment so I could give it a thumbs up.
One thing that bugs me, in general not about this video, is the idea of a subject being too complicated, hard to understand or requiring specific prerequisite knowledge to parse and coming to the conclusion of then explicitly not talking about it.
"You wouldn't understand so I'm not going to bother trying to explain it."
This goes way beyond videogames and is a general flaw in how people deal with one another.
For games though; I'm not going to to understand your GDC talk any more or less by not watching it. That's crazy.
By communicating the information plainly, even if you're cracking wise behind the scenes about how the dummies will never understand it, at least it's out there. Someone can engage with it, not understand it, then choose to further engage with it and learn what it is they don't understand.
That's what bugs me I think. When you decide for someone else that something is beyond them, so keep it secret or removed from their sphere, you rob them of that first step to recognizing that deficiency and correcting it.
Someone growing up in a flat earther cult, told from infancy the "way things are", never gets the opportunity to get out if no one bothers telling them the world ain't flat. You write them off as "Not worth the time explaining the truth too" so they don't get that chance to learn.
A weird comparison but I do so love hyperbolic examples :p
Also, for everyone who won't understand the super technical minutia there are A TON of people who will. Again it's better to put out the correct information, even if only 1 in 10, or worse, of the audience understands it. In this instance the added benefit is that *some people* are definitely more informed and can help permeate that reality when they see misinformation being spread later.
There's no benefit to holding back truth and facts. I get publishers are scarred that they might make people feel dumb and that will somehow translate to less copies sold(?) but I have zero sympathy for such a dumb concern.
Informational availability is always the better path. Let people decide if they want to engage with it and, god forbid, educate themselves on what they don't understand.
You should never trust anyone who backs down or changes the subject when pressed on a subject's details. The most common excuses from people is "It's a sensitive subject" or "It's rude to talk about it", which in reality means "I would punch you for questioning me if I could get away with it".
*cough* Covid *cough*
In science, every researcher is expected to be able to do an elevator pitch that can succinctly describe your work to a lay person in a format that they can understand. While GDC is a developer conference targeted at other developers and not lay people, the video suggests to me that this isn't a heavily emphasized skill for developers (which I think it should be since this entire video is talking about a lack of awareness in the audience). The video also indicates that the industry does not emphasize these outlets to begin with as developer commentaries are rare and interviews with news reporters are very guarded.
Very valid point. I think about this a lot when writing an episode of the main show (and gave it a lot of consideration during my previous life as a lecturer) I trust that my audience are smart people in their own right, they just don't have the perspective that I do. So for me, the big challenge is in reframing complicated subjects into a manner that is more digestible but without treating you all like idiots, because not only is that not my intent, but I will come across as arrogant and out of touch.
One of the most sobering realisations of completing my Ph.D. (over 10 years ago now) was despite how much I knew about my subject, I knew very little about *everything else*. So I really value people who help me learn more about their perspectives and this channel is effectively my way of paying that forward.
@@AIandGames You're very successful in that regard, so no worries there. I think so at least. Very digestible for a layman.
Hearing that dan houser quote reminded me of the magic in the industry like “bioware magic” which is getting your zero hour contract employees to work 80 hours or getting none
Make developer commentaries commonplace.
“Games are never finished; they’re abandoned.”
This is giving me a flashback to one of the scariest moments in gaming history: “a poem is never finished; it just stops moving.”
Just finished watching the video. I think you nailed a lot of interesting points. Reminds me of (IMO) the flaws of the internet as a whole: echo chambers and oversimplification of everything makes people really tribal and knee-jerk reactive.
A good analogy is publishing a scientific article's results without providing the methods and saying, "It's magic, you need to enjoy the experience"
@@mnm1273 I understand. Especially if your field is very technical, like quantum computing or protein modeling, that makes sense. But there are ways to at least give a broad overview for the in presentations or in publications to provide reasoning for using certain techniques. If nothing else, it can people at least a superficial appreciation for what goes involved in your work. I recently gave my doctoral dissertation and that was a sentiment I received from family. They may not understand all the details but at least hearing people talk about the effort involved in different experiments or analysis provides a greater sense of the technical and professional achievements of acquiring and analyzing data.
This could be the same for game development. Even CD Project Red had their computer scientists have a presentation on their computer modeling and programing for developing how a character spoke in different languages. I didn't necessarily understand every detail but it do show me how impressive their work was in getting their result. This is why it's tragic that games like Cyberpunk release before they are ready. It hurts the people who spent long hours working on very technical projects. If nothing else, it helps shift the focus on the higher management ruining the good work that developers provide for their consumers
this is not a good analogy, because understanding a scientific paper's process is key to its function. If one doesn't know the methodology, the result is useless.
art, on the other hand, should (often by necessity) be experienced by the audience without full (or any) knowledge of its creation. Videogames add an additional tech layer that is beyond a single person's understanding (in the case of a AAA game) --- even if the audience had the desire to dedicate their life to fully understanding the technical side, they'd probably have trouble doing so (luckily they don't need to in order to enjoy the game).
Discussing video games in general has gotten really depressing in the past few years. Especially due to social media, it's so easy to spread misinformation and superficial knowledge, people who don't know any better take that as a fact and support a toxic and offensive behavior.
Higher ups and studio leaders meanwhile don't know how to run video game development in a healthy and efficient way, while focusing on making profit as soon as possible. Which leads to disappointment from players as well as developers who worked hard on a game. Just look at Bioware: So much effort and time wasted! Nobody won anything there, except the higher-ups who made a lot of money...
@GiRayne I mean go to any reddit or twitter Community and none of that is true. From Destiny to COD to Cyberpunk to games people loved like the Division it's all hate and entitlement. Never how could we fix this but instead you fixed it wrong or just fix it refusing to see the work that goes into it and that if they just did a simple fix they'd still get hated on. And I think all the death threats at CD Red also proves this. If you can't critique a game without throwing out death threats then something's wrong.
It's hard to keep in mind everything said in the video, but I think you missed or glossed over a piece of the problem: the resentment that this system has caused in not only players, but also developers and journalists. Everyone's preemptively attacking each other because of the years of distrust.
Because there have been bad actors in all the areas and generally they're not the ones who end up facing most of the attacks. They slink away back into the shadows and throw the odd barb at others to stir the pot more
@@Dwavenhobble Or are just plain untouchable. You can't appeal your boss, not in the current culture.
Gaming journalism is basically dead. This coming from someone who collected gaming magazines in my youth, hundreds of them from many outlets. I even briefly wanted to go into tech/gaming journalism in my teens and even got an internship. But as things stand nowadys, I would only burn everything to the ground. The Internet ruined the world more than it improved it.
well to me Journalism is business and they are in the business of selling stories regardless if there are true or not the only thing that matters is that they sell. (or maybe I think that because I am British and grew up to the British newspapers to whom the truth is seen as something that is not required at all)
@@lordomacron3719 And people wonder why talking about Ethics in Journalism is something that needs to be brought up in Media and Gaming Media. Lying and being untruthful is not ethical at all and just causes more people to argue against it, which them, makes people look toxic as two sides fight, further leading to an even bigger flood for arguments. For me, I don't belive any media, here in England, and definitely not anything from America. They all lie and all would slander you if it meant they could get a few extra clicks on an article, then later, delete it and "Apologise" when they get called out on.
I think that knowing how games are made has made me appreciate and enjoy them more. I find it's the same with films too.
likewise, thats why cyberpunk 2077 release didnt offend me as much as it lit a fire on the ass on so many people. Yes they fucked up, but let's focus on going forward ey? Well, fuck that - as the audience would rather say. This is a growing and rapidly developing market. The teething issues are endless. Gamers have no concept of this. They are just, too entitled. I'm sorry but its true. If they weren't then they would have known more about game development and the industry of gaming business. I've been called a CDProjekt bootlicker for saying RDR2 is a buggy mess. That's the emotions of this entitled uninformed audience. I exclusively play RDR2 and haven't bothered touching my £50 install of CB77 since install. I've been flamed at for stating the same opinions as this video endlessly. So im glad somebody of some credit and value to their public name is finally saying something about it.
The eyes in the back of the head thing i remember reading in a Gamasutra article. But in any case, we need a hell of a lot more Noclip's, video game dev commentaries over playthroughs and generally less intrusive and predatory marketing. And in the end we need more educated gamers. It kills me to still see people confusing publishers and developers together, and that perfectly encapsulates how much they know of the makers and the industry they're buying the media from. We have drilled down and we scrutinize bio foods and the chain of where the chicken gets made and processed befure turning into nuggets, and we scutinize who makes our clothes and who grows our cocoa or makes our phones, but we're so happy to just consider videogame creation to be 'magic' and ignore the human toll and the trials and tribulations of the medium. I loved reading Blood Sweat and Pixels specifically for the gritty look at the process of these troubled games, but that's just me.
Rockstar referring to game dev as "magic made by elves" makes me think we need a Pen and Teller of game dev
As TB said pre-ordering needs to die.
happy to see the return of completed demos vs early release
Pre-ordering really sucks but TB supported Gamergate when it started despite it being blatantly obvious that it was a hate campaign so I wouldn't have listened to him for anything of worth.
@@WaddleDee105 It is actually possible for people to be right about one thing, and wrong about another
@Chris You're the one that seems offended. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@Zebrahead519 After all, everyone's human and can make mistakes.
the rockstar quote is pretty chilling now that information about how they treat employees
I love when games have model viewers or conceptual art galleries, like RE2 Remake. Sony also made some behind-the-scenes videos about GOW, Bloodborne, and SotC Remake, but such content is indeed way too rare, even though I bet people would pay extra for it.
I find that some of the best "behind the scenes"/insight comes from videos of devs watching people break there games in speed runs. I remember the ones that Bungie did for Halo CE and Halo 2 and more recently IGN's series of videos of devs watching speed runs of there games.
While I agree with the sentiment of this video and find it admirable that you try to avoid drama by being careful with your wording and mentioning specific people, games or companies, I think it regrettably leads to this video being too vague and hard to follow. While I had an idea what issues you were alluding to (and even then, I'm not even sure I have it right), I think being more specific would have made it easier to understand for most people.
I think it's a dishonest to pretend that people got a good understanding of how other cultural industries are working.
For example official movies making-of depict a very sanitised version of the reality.
I mean, just look at your example with Avengers "bloopers" with the actors dancing. Does anyone believe this is representative of a movie set ? This is obviously some highly curated marketing material.
I've been an extra on some movies, from small productions to huge blockbuster, and when I talk about that to people, they always have a very fantasized vision of how it must be.
The truth is you can't imagine how slow, tedious and boring a movie shooting is.
And I have barely a very vague idea of how the music or book industry might work, despite "consuming" those on a daily basis.
So no, I don't think the video game industry is really different in that regard.
If you want my opinion, the difference with public reaction has very little to do with industry, and everything to do with how it is "consumed" (no one keep watching a movie or reading a book for several months in a row, and these media can't really change after being released), and the target audience (people who are familiar with new technology and so are more likely to be on any online social platform ready to type some stupid comments).
100%. Shame that he just ignored this comment.
Nice to hear someone say it, especially in the shadow of Cyberpunk. As a developer playing that game I've only been able to marvel at how much they built, how detailed it all is - breathtaking even. Not the bugs and faults. Hell, as a developer I still find it amazing such games even get completed in the first place.
This helps spell out what I've felt for years. When a "Bug" gets massed publicity it is always why was this not fixed and not how can this be fixed. That right there exemplifies the knowledge gap between publisher and consumer like the video says.
I think it depends on the severity. Bugs that make the game unplayable and waste the effort of players rightly make gamers angry, it's a sign of sloppy QA. Sometimes mountains do get made out of molehill bugs though, little things that don't majorly impact the experience.
I think consumers can be as upset as they like about bugs if they have no way to return the product.
You know, taking a page from DVDs and Bluray, I think it'd be awesome if games had developer commentary tracks. Like imagine after you've played through a game you really enjoyed, if you could play through it again but with voice-over commentary from the developers at certain points talking about how and why they did certain things. Might not work for every game depending on the structure, but for some games, like more linear narrative focused games, it would work brilliantly.
You mean like Valve did from Half-Life: Lost Coast onwards? Oh, yeah, I agree - people loved it.
In the age of 2.0 games, art doesn't have to be abandoned. Now it can be patched. Following the fan outrage of a broken game's launch, some start to claim authority over what issues need to be addressed and how to do so, despite having zero knowledge of development. Sometimes they're right. So executives give the burden of decision making to the fans since they failed so spectacularly to do their job in the first place. Now the roles are reversed: Fans are instructing developers on what changes or additions to make, and if you thought executives were bad at making decisions, just wait until you see how disorganized and ill-informed player feedback is. Some of them don't understand the systems they're criticizing. Some of them never interact with entire parts of the game that need work. Some of them look past glaring issues to prioritize their own personal fantasy of what they want from the game. Any combination thereof can apply, don't groups are more vocal than others, devs don't know which ones to listen to, infighting breaks out, people leave the community entirely, and the whole system collapses under its own weight. Ghost Recon: Breakpoint is in the latter phases this process now. The subreddit is filled with cosmetic nitpicking and the appointed Delta Company community managers are inundated with feedback of all types, with no idea how to report it back to Ubisoft Paris. The whole idea is a failure just waiting to split in two
Games used to ship "finished" before online connections were standard. Now that everything is online, I guess it's natural that day one updates are now normal.
Id software seems to do a good job of being open with their fans as to what happens behind the scenes.
Hugo has been quite open about id software struggling with bugs. Apparently, one of the more pronounced bugs in Doom Eternal was the result of them fixing another bug, and it took them a few months to figure it out because the code had been messy after months of development. Even for large and very experienced studios, bugs are a struggle.
I agree, Id software are pretty chill with the fans new and old
@@NaumRusomarov not to mention everyone at Id is working at home at the moment and communication can be a bit awkward
They listen to criticism, communicate with fans and act like nerds who actually have passion for making games instead of just releasing products. It’s refreshing
@@brandondamitz8876 DLC 2? There’s a trailer date for it already and Hugo has been giving info about its development and the new additions in his streams. I’m not surprised it’s not coming out within the year considering covid.
I'm glad that I've watched so many documentaries and RUclips videos about game development. That, along with trying to make a game has led me to get more enjoyment out of games. Trying to make a game has also led me have even more respect for game devs. I already had a lot of respect to game devs before that; making games is HARD. It reaches out to so many different skill areas, and everything has to work together perfectly or else it could sour the end product. I feel really bad for devs when a game is released earlier than it should be. Its obvious that Cyberpunk had an absolutely stunning amount of work put into every part of the game. There's so much detail in everything, but being released much, much earlier than it should have led to people unnecessarily hating on them. Its soured their reputation, and if they got to spend as much time as they needed on the game, it might not have been so bad for them.
I think this problem goes beyond Games>Art>Politics> all the way to the philosophy of our world. Information information information. People need to study for years to become experts in anything and all the while they are bombarded by choices of food, music, theaters, movies, friend groups, social circles, social media, marketing... FREEDOM. It is just suffocating to be given a free choice of everything, but to make an educated choice you have to know so much while avoiding propaganda, lies, and just unintentional misinformation.
You take into account that people around you don't know something and instead of telling the truth you give the simplified version. Journalists representing scientific and artistic work to the public, echo chambers of people running from negative feedback... It's a cacophony of information. After you take a glimpse at the colossal amount of work anything takes to be done right or fixed (e.g. global warming, video game, economy, political landscape, ethnic tensions, busted education systems...), all that you want to say and believe is that it will be better, that someone else will do it and that it will all blow over without your direct and painstaking involvement. Even if you decide to contribute you can make a mistake and even if you don't it's grinding to feel like a drop in the bucket of a world whose size you can't even comprehend e.g. 8 000 000 000 people looks like a number but feels like an abstract concept.
Finding the truth among misinformation and finding out how to filter all the noise is our task now.
This is a tremendously important and interesting video. Things have shifted so much by now that it is almost completely different altogether. Games were once simply media to be consumed and hopefully enjoyed, by now it is bogged down by hype, streamers, preconceived notions, keyboard warriors and secretive production companies slaving away at titles unfairly. The actual tangiable experience of playing a game seems like the very least important part of the video gaming world by now, and in that sense I'd say it has completely been flipped on its head.
People need to emotionally regulate. Any time a game is hyped up for a while people get expectations that are beyond that of a video game and then get angry when it doesn’t meet them, they do this every time.
It is kind of the job of marketing to prevent that from happening...
Hype is one thing. I get how the software processes work, how much work is put into it.
But as a customer I do not have to know how the process work. I pay for the license and expect software to work.
So due to this even though I know how terrible project handling might be (from experience). And I have a lot of sympathy for people working in the r&d of a software company. As a customer if the product does not meet my expectations I will most probably voice my disappointment.
And to be fair many games I played was far from perfect but I could appreciate the work and the final outcome.
Have a nice time gaming!
Yeah right, it's not the fault of multi-million businesses with multi-billion conglomerate owners pushing hype onto suspicable players, conditioned for more than a decade to react to the slightest hint of shit in a game as massive hype, it's the players who are only the way they are because the businesses benefit from it. Fuck you. You are the problem -- you are what's wrong with gamers.
Yea, after No Man's Sky I stopped letting myself get overhyped for anything, and guess what? Cyberpunk was as good as I expected, Star Citizen never being released doesn't bother me, and I'll be honest Fallout 76 was easily seen as a burning pile of crap from 1000 light years away so it wasn't that hard to not be hyped for it. I haven't had any major videogame dissapointments in years, all thanks to me just stepping back and realizing that I can't expect god themself to have created whatever game I'm anticipating. That doesn't mean I don't get excited for new games, I do, I'm hella hype for BOTW2 but I'm able to control my hype to prevent myself from being let down because of unrealistic expectations
@@SM-or1wo Actually marketing's job is to sell the game, how you feel about it afterwards is not their job
I remember listening to the unlockable developer commentary tracks in Sly Cooper for each level as a kid and being enthralled by them. The lack of developer behind-the-scenes info is depressing.
My favourite memories as a kid were listening to the developer commentary in the orange box. It's how I learned about leading lines and silhouettes.
Hey Tommy, really nice summary overall. As someone who's a part of the industry as well as an avid gamer - I agree with almost everything. One point I feel a bit sad about is the "Gamer Gate" sentiment, while I believe that there have been a lot of bad actors, there were many valid points that ended up being buried with that sentiment of "X-ism", "harassment" etc. In many ways, what you were talking about is what "Gamer Gate" was for a lot of people, including myself - a disconnect between the industry and the consumers.
@@nustada I believe that there were people who took their own agenda into it and used it to just be unkind to others. It's sad to see that most people looking from outside in, now think that it was all about those "bad actors" and their agenda.
There are reasons to be angry and reasons to be upset, but after all these years I think "sad" is most appropriate in my case. Sad that smart people on both sides can't sit down together and talk about it. We're all human, yet we so often fail to understand one another, intentionally or not.
@@nustada
To be fair to the anti-Gamergate crowd, though, I reframed my understanding of the situation in 2019 along the lines of perceiving Gamergate, and especially its predecessors, Five Guys, as basically being a 4chan-led attempt at proto-Cancel Culture. I hate Cancel Culture. Therefore, despite how despicable and hypocritical Zoe Quinn and some of the anti-Gamergaters turned out to be, Gamergate was still morally pointless at best (if it were to not do anything, since their opponents dug in their heels and wouldn't budge), or spiteful and toxic at worst (if it managed to ruin (even "evil") people's careers and livelihoods).
@@roadent217 I disagree. Media enjoys certain privileges under the law, those privileges come with an acceptance of certain standards. If I read a magazine claiming to tell me about the state video games market, I would like to know if the author has a strong conflict of interest. Whomever is having whatever relationship with anyone is just details. The broader picture is corruption, and I think that it would be better to focus on that, I believe we are on of same opinion there. With respect to careers and livelihoods, I believe that if you're someone who's operating under false pretense and you inform my opinion - I would like for you to take responsibility for this, up to and including losing your career and livelihood, just like everyone else in every other field. Would you think it's okay for a teacher to beat your child if they do it only sometimes? Would you want them to keep their career afterwards? How about if you get a game from company X and there's a virus bundled into the game's code, would you say that we should forgive and forget? There are consequences to breaking professional contracts, both written and implied, and I think that's fine.
The industry needs to stop falsely advertising their games because it's profitable in the end. It's not the developers' faults. It's not the consumers' faults for believing dev companies (or for not being engineers themselves, which is a batshit take).
We need federal oversight to actually prosecute false advertising for what it is so that the industry's PR and executive people are actually incentivized to either be honest and clear with consumers, or to say nothing at all.
Very interesting video. I always found it interesting that many people who have made video games a focal point of their career don't really have any idea how they work or how the industry behind them operate.
i am convinced that in this day and age you have to be a developer to understand how hard it is.
@@TheVoiceOfChaos and even then it varies a lot by company, but now that everyone is buying everyone it is becoming the same
I still remember when the Indiegogo campaign to add Squiggly to Skullgirls first released back in 2013. Almost everyone was complaining about why the addition of a single character in a fighting game could cost over $100k. The founder of Iron Galaxies Dave Lang broke down why the cost was actually very reasonable, going so far as to break down how the money would hypothetically be distributed out to different individuals and stages of development.
My first reaction was, "Why did normal players have to practically pay for the privilege to have someone from the game industry explain in great detail how games were financed?"
For years, I was looking for more information on how games were made, and the time I get a full breakdown of it, I had to spend money to not only get the game to be made but also practically beg for the information in order to get a straight answer.
At the same time, numerous kickstarters were getting released to finance games with stretch goals so low they might as well be asking for nothing. One in particular note was Cryamore, which, at one time during development, had a dev team comprising of Aivi Tran, Mariel Cartwright (who was working on Skullgirls at the time), and a former Naughty Dog executive.
That game had a successful campaign, receiving over $300k. That game is still in development, now with only 2 members on staff. None of the excellent members mentioned above are on the project, ever since moving onto better projects - Aivi Tran, most notably, working on the Steven Universe OST.
This solidified into my mind this undeniable fact: No one - not even industry veterans - know what it takes to make a game
I mean you'd think I don't know games journalists or something would want to explain how games are financed just as an information piece that could keep being brought up again and again. But apparently having people shove Amiibos and controllers up their arses is seen as more valuable to use page space on for a number of games journalism publications.
@@Dwavenhobble Doubt that's it. Most journalists 'know' of the information, but aren't allowed to divulge. Still remember an article stating how one journalist spoke to Ken Levine about the Bioshock Infinite E3 demo.
Ken Levine stated it was real... only to find out years later it was all smoke and mirrors.
I also remember listening to the Cheap Ass Gamers podcast years ago, where they would read out monthly sales chart from a paid service only a select few could even sign up for.
The game industry is a perpetuating series of lies, half-truths, and information gatekeeping that only slowed down when game studios realized they needed to plea to their customer base to finance parts of development.
I say this, as I don't recall the GDC Vault being open for the public before 2013 - the year of the successful Broken Age Kickstarter campaign
When it is hard to communicate inside the industry between fields it is no wonder why communicating with someone outside is so hard.
When companies promise the moon, someone who knows how games are made understands exactly what is realistic and what is bs. Most people have no idea how much work went into any game. Including the executives and PR team that try to sell them. Let the actual people who make the games tell you what it will be like (the devs)
er well, that does not always work out well I site Hello Games and No Man Sky Shaun Murry A game dev, not a PR man, also made the mistake of raising ppls expectations beyond reasonable limits.
@@lordomacron3719 That and he clearly stated what wouldn't be at launch. Its 100% gamers fault they ignored those things. In fact. 6 months before launch every single NMS youtube video, steam forum post, reddit post was full of educated people disproving everyones MP will be at launch claims. 6 months before launch. No one listended. Sean Murray isn't to blame for his games dumbass community.
@@lordomacron3719 That and he clearly stated what wouldn't be at launch. Its 100% gamers fault they ignored those things. In fact. 6 months before launch every single NMS youtube video, steam forum post, reddit post was full of educated people disproving everyones MP will be at launch claims. 6 months before launch. No one listended. Sean Murray isn't to blame for his games dumbass community.
@@Wylie288 he was not comfortable in interviews gave ambiguous statements because he did not know what to say he had no media training and Intended or otherwise he did inflate expectations. Yes, ppl made too many poorly worded statements but they still need those statements to work off. What I am saying is that throwing a lifelong Game dev in front of the camera with no prep on how the media work might not work out well that is all.
My main point is that the developers progress should inform the hype, not the fucking marketing team. Because the marketing team don't MAKE the godamn product they are promising. The process should START with the devs.
That's how it used to go back in the day, and it still had some problems but not like today where every second AAA product is some form of scam.
A documentary about development of a game, would show another perspective on "how to look at a game". I liked "High Score" for example, it shows there is a lot going on in the gaming industry. The chance of a documentary being made to actually see the development and decisions will most likely never happen.
The problem is that there are plenty of documentaries, artices, interviews out there. The problem is is that there's too much of it. This is the problem with the digital age: we are assaulted daily by an onslaught of information, and we have no idea what to do with it. Who do we trust? So we too often rely on hyperactive youtube personalities or click bait to get our attention.
With all this in mind, where do you feel Star Citizen sits in terms of how they've communicated their dev process thus far?
See thats tricky because no matter how many times they explain what a roadmap is, people don't understand it. You even have to click "I understand" to see the damn thing. yet everyone's always surprised when projections move.
Every day that passes im more and more convinced gamers are the real problem with our community. They are stupid beyond help.
I could definitely hear the venom in your voice at the end, and how your talk became more "emotional" there, but hey, we're all human. And like you said, what happend with Cyberpunk 2077 is just sad all around.
Developer commentary modes (a la old Valve games) and the Insomniac Museum levels in the earlier Ratchet & Clank games were a gold mine when it comes to looking into 'how the sauce was made.'
However, the post-mortems and talks on the GDC YT channel have been just as - even more - inciteful into discovering the game development process.
Most of this stuff was buried in niche computer and game development magazines - out of sight compared to the cavalcade of games review magazines (Game Informer, EGM).
Heck, for as much as I don't like Warframe at the moment, Digital Extremes' Devstreams are still unique in regards to peering into the veil of the continued development of a successful game - even among indie developers, usually held up as far more open about the development process than AAA game developers. Devstreams are very down-and-dirty compared to the pristine, pre-recorded devlogs from other developers.
The worst part of all of these forms of showing off development, however, is the extra time it takes to explain or show off what makes a game work. It's a combination of so many other media, it's still hard to pin down what a game is in terms of what it's made of.
In a world where any gaming discussion turns into a fire dumpster, videos like this are extremely necessary!! thanks for that man
I deeply appreciate the fact that you took the time to make this video. The games industry being shrouded in so much secrecy is problematic for a number of reasons, and I feel that's not talked about enough. A little bit more openness and transparency from game developers could go a long way. In my ~2 years working in the games industry, I can't believe how much I've learned that I NEVER could've learned about before working at a game studio. It's frustrating because it's not like most of the stuff I've learned about is top secret, but the people who have the knowledge don't have the means or time to share that knowledge effectively. And I've noticed that other game devs will sometimes give me weird looks when I talk about this, as if the games industry isn't a secretive place and all the stuff they know about it is just common knowledge. It's easy to forget where you came from once you've been in this industry for a long time.
You say that as if you are openly told exactly what you eat and how it's been cooked in a restaurant.
I get it, secrecy is damaging but also protective. Say you work in a game right now and it becomes a hit. You've made a great documentary to follow it along. Lovely. You got a strong base. 100000 buyers meaning the game has profited 800000 (whichever currency). Okay, now you make a second one. This time you are a lead developer and feature the documentary from top to bottom. The game is harder to make, the mechanics were hard to nail and, unluckily, because the game is bigger it takes longer to explore fully for the QA, takes longer to finish. The sales start well but... A RUclipsr has found how to break the game and now you're the center of interrogation. "you've fucked up, it's so clear, how could you miss this?" You take it on the chin and assume losses. Next game you make, love of your life. Best game you've made. Labelled a one hit wonder now so publicity is hard. People are skeptical. Not enough buys, just about enough to float. You see?
Cyberpunk had work put into it. Fucked up hard. Developers are not allowed to make mistakes. Especially if you trust them. People leave the studio? "Nobody else can replace them now" CD Projekt is suddenly dead.
The "behind the scenes" features where always my favorite part about DVDs. I loved watching how they made Corpse Bride, being able to get a glimpse of their work stations where they made the puppets, the concept drawings they hung up on the walls, the sets they build. I am thankful for the insight that you provide us with through these videos on how devs think up these systems for their games, how they work and evolve, what they were inspired by. This is what I would call 'magic' when it comes to games and movies. How so many different people and forms of art can work together to create a whole new experience. The thoughts that went into the creation, the problems they had to face, hurdles they had to overcome, the creative solutions they engineered. There's a lot of things I often don't notice when I play a game or watch a movie that's why I like watching videos that go more in depth about the music, game mechanics, level design etc. and show how significant they are to gain a greater appreciation for these works of art :)
Alright guys, We got 1393 days until 2025. 1560 days until June 17th 2025. Don't forget that's when we get the Last of Us 2 video
The system has been carefully designed and crafted to be the way it is to serve the needs of those at the very top. The result? Every community involved in gaming holds a degree of disdain and distrust for other communities, unwilling to admit they themselves share some of the blame.
Journalists get blowback and criticism for daring to be the first ones honest with you or because they made articles based on PR promises that ended up be being false. However, it is also well-known that journalism plays softball with gaming for the most part, because they want the exclusive deals and content for articles and clicks. Publishers do not bribe reviewers with money, but they DO dangle the carrot of behind-the-scenes tidbits in front of them before implying "It would be a shame if you said bad things about us, because then we suddenly wouldn't have the time to invite you to this special little demo we have." And journalists willingly go along with this game because being informative is secondary to generating clicks and revenue.
Gamers have put up with the greedy monetization of games as well as the blatant misinformation given for publishers for so long that they are often naturally skeptical of any promise, as they should be. However, there has also been a growing sense of entitlement, a belief among the most hardcore and obsessed of gamers that developers should cater entirely to them, and the game should be based entirely around what the loudest part of the fanbase wants, rather then what the developers may have envisioned. As a writer and creator myself, I have always believed that visions should ultimately come from the artist, not the consumer.
PR and marketing teams are often only doing the bidding of the executives, as a means of generating hype to the point that a game is guaranteed not to fail. However, an accomplice is still complicit. They still gladly build games up on promises that they know are unlikely to come to fruition.
The result is Cyberpunk 2077. A game that was built almost entirely around hype. people who look back with a pragmatic view will tell you that, aside from the glitches and technical flaws, the game simply cut out a lot of the features that were promised in and failed to implement others in a satisfactory way. But the game was set up to succeed based solely on "Good Faith." Witcher 3 is the new darling of the RPG community, it has become a standard for the genre to live to up to. Fans adore it, peers in the development community praise it. The upper management know they can use this to their advantage. "Coming... when it's ready." "We leave greed to others." CDPR has been positioned as the last beacon of hope amongst a sea of toxicity, and the marketing team get to work convincing players that it's worth buying into the hype because of the success of Witcher 3. Because CDPR are "The good guys". The gaming community spready this belief. CDPR are the heirs of quality gaming, they can be trusted without question.
Multiple delays in quick succession towards the end have some suspicious. One delay to an unspecified date would indicate dedication to quality, but 3 quick "hard" dates, each set right before the previous one is ready? Some people realize there is trouble in paradise, that they might be struggling to make this thing actually presentable. But the delusional fanatics vehemently attack anyone that dares to say anything is bad about the game they have yet to even play. Cyberpunk isn't out yet, but the cult already believes it is the game of the decade. One reviewer warns the game can trigger seizures if you have epilepsy, and people disgustingly reply by spamming her with flashing images. Meanwhile, some journalists try to warn of potential disappointment, but most are busy harping on about how the game is "insulting to trans people." These were the same people that said the game insulted Jamaicans because of one gang in the game, even though Jamaicans that were actually interviewed said that they LOVED what they had seen so far. Most sites that actually tried to critique the game were busy trying to claim "This game is offensive" rather than "This game is not what it's cracked up to be, buyer beware."
The distrust and resentment grows between all parties, and then the street date hits. It is a DISASTER. Bugs, glitches, constant crashes, unplayable console versions, features and mechanics half-baked or missing entirely. Everyone blames each other, when they fail to realize that they ALL share some of the blame. Gamers were so obsessed with CDPR they already decided the game was untouchable. Journalists were focusing on what demographics THEY thought should be offended rather than looking at the crumbling foundation in front of them and warning gamers. CDPR threw their Q&A team under the bus, even after a call was leaked showing that the leaders knew full well the game wasn't ready. They didn't care, they wanted money. They let everyone be misled; gamers, journalists, even their own shareholders whom they told "It runs surprisingly well on console."
This is a cycle that has been created to assure hype generates profit, and the first step towards fixing it is for EVERYONE to take a step back and understand their own contribution towards it, intentional or not.
bro you are so underrated this video was so good and I agree with you, I feel like more transparency would help more that it would hurt.
Your channel and a ton of critique videos of other channels made me enjoy the development/ideas etc. of games even though I will not understand the deep intricate inner workings of them
Building software is like building an invisible house. It is hard. Game software is harder because you have to build both tech and content separately.
To make it visible, we copy a concept of Kanban board and sprint from other industries. It is working as an internal communication tool, but it is not easy for a normal audience to digest.
Thanks for making this interesting video essay on video game stuff. As someone with a computer science degree and a few years of professional web dev experience, I know making good video games is difficult because making *any kind* of good software is usually hard.
Also, I feel like the modern media landscaped is messed up in a major way so that certain sentiments can get amplified by the cultural zeitgeist to the point where people seem to only regurgitate what they hear others say & think. As mentioned in the video, there can be an echo chamber effect where people continually reinforce their own opinions with confirmation bias stuff. I can only hope culture & society make room for a balanced narrative within modern media that lets people calm down, take a moment and evaluate what they are talking about with a critical yet empathetic eye towards the content they are consuming and the people making said content.
Love the great work and look forward to the next thing you make
"Games are never finished, they're abandoned" is a quote that will likely haunt me the rest of my life...
Original quote is about art in general and attributed to DaVinci incase you didn't know.
17:31 after you said that I immediately got a lottery ad
This video deserves a lot more views and digestion. I am not a game dev - just a 40+ year player LOL - and I believe this is exactly the reason this video and the position it puts forth needs to be considered by game consumers. I am in awe of games, just the same way I was when I was a kid, and so games still have a lot of "magic" for me. However, I also own a business and understand how difficult it is for different teams within a company to work together successfully.
You don't have to understand all the technical specifications of game development in order to evaluate the end product, its limitations, and its triumphs. You just have to be reasonable. The internet is not at all reasonable. I believe that's the primary issue here.
Does anyone has the link for the source: Design Dive #9? I'm really interested.
Thanks in advance!
ruclips.net/video/DEb2Vto6zpA/видео.html
This it?
Great video! Hopefully, the discourse around videogames might change in the future.
I started to avoid big studio titles some years ago for many of the reasons mentioned in this video. I started to watch indie developers on youtube and buy their games and I might not play them that much, but I still like to support them because of the great educational ressources they provide.
It's been almost a year since the last Design Dive episode, and boy did I pick a topic to come back with.
I guess if you ever wondered what the Jimquisition would sound like with a Scottish accent, I've got you covered.
Have you ever looked at the AI in Rainworld?
I'm happy that ur back :D
It's okay. Glad to see more than just james stephanie sterling banging this drum. As to the divergence of content, I guess you can just say that this video was Born Different from some of the others on the channel.
I don't want the Jimquisition in any accent, let alone a Scottish one. Deeply ironic, considering this video is about toxicity and the sad state of games discourse...
I think you completely glazed over and omitted the most important detail of all. ...WHO actually fixes MOST of these Disasters? ... c'mon .. you can say it. We all know the real answer: It's the Modders. It's the people who stuck around as the Janitors long after the parades and Suits and even the Designers themselves all clocked out. Stop trying to Lionize lazy Developers by saying we the player just don't understand. WE have already Democratized our own Design processes!
Really threw me for a loop seeing you in the Atrium at 2:08, had to double check I'd got it right; had no idea you were previously a lecturer at my uni! Small world!
Yup, that's the Derby Uni atrium. Still miss my cheap but surprisingly decent coffee from Blends.
@@AIandGames God bless the 9am lecture fuel
this video is criminally underwatched
Overwatched*
What world do you live in that journalists, in gaming no less, hold developers and/or publishers accountable for subpar practices *before* any public outcry from consumers? Or that they have any integrity whatsoever?
@@muckdriver well said.
@@muckdriver I just laughed when 20 articles on 20 different gaming "news" sites all made the same "GAMERS ARE TOXIC MANBABIES" article on the same day, in response to the articles about game developers colluding with journalists to get good publicity. It's so transparent what's going on behind the scenes, yet most non-gaming media with no understanding of the business nor of the relationships that exist that should maybe be owned up to, kept reusing the same "GAMERS ARE TOXIC MANBABIES" narrative for the next 5 years. They don't even bother doing investigative journalism. If you want readers to remain respectful and take your work seriously, do actual investigations.
@@muckdriver buddy, there wasn't just RACISTS and SEXISTS, people were doxxed, there were death threats to this columnists, harassment campaigns and such, it doesn't matter what was "most people's intentions", buy and large that was what gamer gate accomplished.
Also, journalists don't hold anyone accountable, all they do is inform and investigate (jason schreier is a good recent exemple). It's usually governments and regulatory boards like the ESRB (joke) that hold anyone accountable. If gamergate was at all concerned with ethics maybe the should've focused on this organizations and not journalists that the didn't like (which is the real reason behind the whole ethics bullshit).
This is a wonderful video, thank you so much. Hopefully the divide between how games are made and the fans that play them get smaller, so we all learn and appreciate just how difficult it is to make a good game, and will lead to a better appreciation by fans of the medium.
I definitely agree with you, and even with films lately, there has been a trend to look at them and evaluate them from a consumeristic perspective, rather than the artistic one. And that's something I hate about video game discourse the most, most journalists that write about it only do it in that sense because their readers are interested in whether the game that's coming out and everyone is hyped about is worth their 60 dollars or not. Also, too many people are not interested in the development side of the story and how that impacts the final product, and as you point out, companies like Rockstar operating under a veil of secrecy don't help that.
There's plenty that I see needs to change in that regard and we all need to do our role in order to achieve some sensible progress.
"And for some reason, unknown to the construction team, it's actually on fire." hahahah yea...
This is why I gave up on game reviews from virtually everyone. I just watch GDC talks for technical stuff or watch long winded analysis to see how differently people interpret the same story or what themes they took away from it. Gaming communities themselves have made me almost hate interacting with others that share my interest.
@@rockapartie I watch those for his humor more than any interest in playing the games he reviews.
First of all, this was a much needed video. Wondering how to get more eyes on this, or at least the "right" eyes.
ALSO, would love to see you examine the AI in Thief and Thief 2, explain how Looking Glass got it to work, as well as why no studio has been able to successfully replicate this kind of light and noise based stealth system in the 25 years since these titles were released. Just a suggestion.
Indeed, this video is needed to show just how dysfunctional and antagonistic the relationship between devs, fans and publishers have become. I especially like that he includes the fans and pundits as helping contribute to this problem; from what I've seen, there are plenty of online personalities who see devs and publishers as avatars of Mammon, and the fans as poor benighted waifs- at least until they support said devs and publishers. I'd also be interested in learning how Thief's AI works as well, though I'm not sure it hasn't been replicated. There are some similar stealth games out with light and sound, such as the Dishonored series (though there shadows only help at a distance, whereas, from what I've heard, in Thief you could be close enough to tickle the guards with your nose hairs and they wouldn't notice if you were in shadow.)
This felt like a gaming industry diss track.... In a good way, a very succinct beatdown of systemic issued in the gaming industry that I hope the industry will have a response to.
Part of the problem is greedy customers that don’t understand when a game is finished
I -LOVED- unlocking and viewing behind the scenes videos in games. I loved watching the ones in god of war and the ps2 mortal kombat games. I watched the "Raising Kratos" documentary about the new god of war. Absolutely fascinating.
There's the interview with the director of Dead Space and he goes on about the difficulty of the tentacle scene and how it helped them develop a very successful development method. Fascinating. Dude seems like an incredible leader.
"Ill-informed question begets non-committal response' has to be one of my favourite quotes of all time. Well said, and this problem is at the root not only of this consumer-developer divide, but of all interactions between (relatively) uninformed public and highly qualified experts attempting to communicate.
The point of a question is to learn. It's a request to fill in the gaps in your knowledge. Belittling the person asking a question for not already being informed about the topic beforehand - why would they ask the question if they already knew precisely what they were talking about? Why insult someone for asking a question when we can help them to understand what it is they clearly don't, instead?
A guaranteed mark of a genuine asshole is when they mock someone for not already knowing something, when they're making an earnest attempt to learn of it.
@@WhompingWalrus
I agree - and then he mocks and hates GamerGate for trying to do the same thing - demand standards for "ethics in videogame journalism", which is basically asking the journalist industry to be more open and accountable. And then they get flamed and smeared for that...
Just found your channel and already subscribed. I think one of the most important elements of the dysfunction of video game discourse is the lack of dedicated video game journalism. Aside from industry journalists such as Jason Schrier and RUclips commentators like Jim Sterling, there is precious little criticism to hold publishers to account, often leaving developers holding the bag for practices and decisions over which they have no control. How to attract more attention, and simply more voices to critique such as theirs and yours? That is a problem, especially since poor behavior seems to thrive in a vacuum...
Really great video. I think your response to the 'magical elves' comment was brilliant. It really is a slap in the face to developers efforts.
12:15
1st - I disagree with the quote and agree with your statement that it dehumanizes the developers
2nd - I'm not a game developer, but from my understanding developers are typically under terrible work conditions due to crunch. The fact that people outside the industry know very little about how games are made and the time investment needed to ship a game means that very few people know enough to care about the work conditions of the developers.
Work conditions shouldn't be a customer's thing to worry about, that's what unions are for!
(ohwait)
In my experience while part of it is certainly ignorance, I fear another part is simply the very sin they claim the game companies have; greed. The pundits know that their audience are mainly non game devs who want video games, and so play to their want for more games by making a big stink about how Paradox shouldn't ask for a penny for any of its dlc, and make some noble sounding waffle about consumer rights to back them up. That and I wonder how useful it is to separate stupidity and malice or even if you can. After all, these pundits ping pong between calling EA idiots and a lean mean money making machine and never seem to note the contradiction of being both astoundingly stupid, yet hoodwinking people again and again.
Thoughts on The Cutting Room Floor?
You Cut ✂️
Then you Crunch ⏱
theres a documentary about double fine that would have been good to mention. It was very insightful!
This is why I really enjoyed the documentary that santa monica studios uploaded to youtube covering their development of God of War 4. It showed all of the hurdles they had to overcome and basically the human element of making the game; it is simply difficult, you have to get along with your coworkers, investors put massive amounts of pressure on you to release the game on time, basically showing how stressful it all is. Like anyone I thought their E3 demo for GoW4 was awesome but it turns out they literally only had that to show, none of the rest of the game was finished lol. I will always respect devs for what they do
VERY well done! I’ve waited forever for someone to bring ALL this up! Thank you for your work!
Marketing in games is selling something that might exist at a certain date maybe, possibly.
It's easy to oversell, because you can always point fingers when it goes wrong. Still branding means to build up a brand. What CDPRs marketing did was certainly the opposite.
Loved the video, just wished you gave and showed more concrete examples of the problems you were talking about, most people here probably know some but I think it would help ground what you are saying.
What's your opinion on the route of 'open development' that Cloud Imperium (Star Citizen/ Squadron 42) have taken with amazing weekly Dev updates and in depth-interviews with artists and developers, whilst refusing to talk about actual release schedules and bugs. Is this still a step in the right direction?
I've always found Noclip, and Raykevik channels to do an amazing job of this.
You've made an excellent video here. It's very much appreciated. Thank you for saying all the things that mostly go unsaid
Regardless of how difficult a task is to do, one who sells you a product while saying/"showing you" how it will work, then proceeds to not deliver what is shown and said, is not acceptable (with a few special exceptions) ... at least not in my eyes, the context can make it more tolerable, as long as the conclusion is that what was shown, will eventually be present. If one buys a van and receives a truck, they may protest as this is not what he payed for. If one buys a painting he liked, only to receives a worse version of it, he may protest. Surely one would have to be unreasonable to see this as unjustified protest.
That being said, it helps to know that in most cases, the developer is not at fault, at least not as much as the ones who decides how long they allow said developers to work on a project and where they allocate resources. It's of course not just their fault, consumers need to learn to have more self control and patience, wouldn't have much to complain about if you waited until the game was out and you knew what they were actually selling and if what was shown was false advertisement. Which tends to be the case, sadly, but still, you can take a look at the final product, decide if it's anywhere near what it should be and if it's worth your time, rather than go through this endless cycle of "Developers saying: This game will be amazing," "Consumer saying: I can't wait, this game will be amazing I'll buy it before it's out" followed by "Consumer saying: This game is barely anything like what you said and showed, I'm outraged"
Yeah, he kind of just brushed the point away that companies lie about the product
I think you got a really good point there, the gaming industry could benefit a lot of making of videos, to show the creation of the product - i watched the making of from "death stranding" and was blown away, how this game manage to keep the vision from the beginning to the end, what was always present in the trailer as well (when u compare the early trailer with the finished product)....as a bad exemple i remember the trailer of the movie "rogue one", were so much was changed in last minute (something we know from games, but no from movies)
I have found that my enjoyment of games has only increased the more I have learned about how they are made, and how they work. I do wish more games we made without crunch and that developers got more of the credit they deserve
Thank you Tommy Thompson for adding the game titles in the video. You are awesome!
Really amazing breakdown of a complicated and frustrating issue. Great work.
I always appreciated the making-of documentaries in the God of War games and Elder Scrolls. Would be really cool to see more games do that. I don't think it takes away from the magic, just like watching the BTS of Jurassic Park doesn't take away from the impact
I'd say it often increases the impact when you know what sort of efforts went into it. I remember watching a NoClip documentary(1) on Arkane and Dishonored, where they talked about the features they added in, despite the work it needed. Like the ability to take out all your targets non lethally. That wasn't planned from the beginning, it was aded in halfway, as Harvey said in said interview. "'There was a moment, pretty far into development, when I (Harvey) realized, I was sitting there, thought about it for a while, and I looked up at Raph (Colantonio) and was like, 'You know, because of the heavy stealth component here you never actually have to kill a guard.(...)"We really had about nine or ten assassination targets. 'If we could find a way to eliminate each of those (the targets) without killing them, then we could make this whole alternate system where, this game can be played non lethally.'"(2) That wasn't a feature planned from the start, it was something added on partway through development. Consider also the amount of choices Arkane allows, for example the first target, can have the poison he intends for another be switched to his glass, with dialogue and reactions from the other characters. Hell, you can save his target and not poison Campbell for the non lethal neutralization in the same run! I wonder how much work that took? Arkane's games are filled with these kinds of crazy ideas like how Dishonored allows you to play through the entire thing with no powers at all. That takes dedication for a game based on supernatural powers, and knowing this makes me even more excited for Arkane's next work, Deathloop. So I don't think knowing how the sausage is made necessarily decreases wonder, and indeed it can increase wonder at the dedication and talent of the developers.
(1)ruclips.net/video/h4kdqwdbZZ8/видео.html
(2) ruclips.net/video/h4kdqwdbZZ8/видео.html starts around 58:35.
The one thing I have to look at with a critical eye in what's an otherwise very sobering and eye-opening video is how GamerGate is being characterized. To be fair, there were absolutely opportunists who were using GamerGate as a platform to sell something or another. Unfortunately, it's a fact that they were also some of the loudest. Whether it's some promise of a more honest alternative to gaming journalists that speak and act against your average person just trying to enjoy video games, or pushing the toxic ideologies that you mentioned. Sometimes you can even see what remains of those scams, abandoned crowd funding projects, dead websites and Twitter handles. But there was absolutely a large portion of that "movement" (for lack of a better term) who were just as exhausted with the unsavory practices in both games media and publishing, though perhaps during a time when consumers were even less informed than they are now. It seems unfair to cast such a wide net over something that involved decent people from far outside the West and it's politics where these issues of online bigotry and harassment seems far more pronounced, when everyone else just wants the same things we're all hoping for now.
and with live service games, the cycle of developer crunch and consumer disappointment never ends! yay?
I see how it feels like that. And you're not wrong! But I do suspect its much more complicated then that
You talk on access to information is pretty common issue I’ve had before it doesn’t help sometimes that some conference websites are shut down and sometimes can be poorly preserved like Ai talks. You also mentioned the legal issues and of course Rockstar tight lipped attitude which is irritating cause it makes it harder to apply what you learned into practice. Sorry for the small rant just something I’ve ran into numerous times.
Though i do strongly appreciate the devs that do come out about what goes on in development like programming design and also the cultural side.
Something that I love about Valve games is the developer commentary modes. It's awesome to see how much work they put into every single aspect of the game from the sound to the background to the music and listening to the devs talking about it with passion is so great.
I can just relax and listen to em while enjoying some of my favourite games.
@@alephkasai9384 i like reading about it so i enjoy reading postmortems ir even articles tommy rights the most ive hesrd rockstar be open was gta 3 and streaming(which is what makes it possible to have these seamless open worlds) i would not have known streaming if it wasn’t for those couple articles at least with how my brain functions.
@@youngknight5589 Was GTA 3 the first game to do that or did other games also do something similar before?
Ah also, I always love following indie games. The dev teams of indie games are often way more open and seeing them develop code by code, feature by feature is amazing.
I think the first game I followed all the way through was blackwake a relatively simple pirate pvp game. It's not too popular but it is quite awesome.
@@alephkasai9384 idk about first game but its the most popular example of a 3D seamless open world thought you do have devs like insomniac games who talk about how they streamed Spider Man and Sunset Overdrive from disc to memory but again those talks are aimed at people who know what the speaker is talking about. Thankfully the speaker does have pdf forms of these talks. And hes indie devs are especially open especially on youtube and forums
I'm quite confused by your use of GamerGate tbh... It was a big twitter movement that was so open to interpretation and circumstantial understandings of the hashtag, whether the majority of people supported in in good or bad faith. There was toxicity on both sides of that issue compounded by the inefficacy of twitter as a platform for explaining what it meant or allowing serious or complex discussion.
I would be interested in what exactly you believe "GamerGate" is so I can understand what you mean by how it "simmered down, but it doesn't mean it ever really went away."
Otherwise appreciate most discussion in the video.
While many people were roped into the movement under the pretense of fighting back against corruption in gaming journalism, many more used that explanation insincerely as a justification for their extreme misogynistic and reactionary beliefs. ruclips.net/video/5VtjZHC5Qyk/видео.html
Do you think that the original game pre patches is important to preserve for the games history?
I think I have to watch this couple of more times in order to digest all the aspects you are presenting. And luckily there is some stars in the sky like Larian studios 💫. And some modding communities like Skyoblivion are very open about their job...but they have secrets to guard. But their work is a delight to watch.
These are some good points; I've tried to understand games development more as I get older and want to appreciate the medium, but you're right that the industry doesn't make things all that easy for outsiders to become familiar.
While you may understandably have a more sympathetic perspective towards games journalists having had experience in that area yourself, I think one thing you didn't mention is review score inflation, especially with AAA titles, which makes it very difficult to tell what AAA games are quality experiences and which are not. It's a complicated issue with companies often basing bonuses off of review scores (which seems abhorrent to me given the fact that games will often be forced to release by higher-ups, not the devs themselves), and review sites wanting to avoid controversial opinions. If we rate games on a 1-10 scale or equivalent, only scoring in the 7-10 region for a AAA title is naturally going to cloud how good the game actually is.
Obviously part of that issue is simply that games are, as a whole, better than in the past, and that graphics/artistic presentation, or early-to-mid game experiences are often more important to some reviewers than core gameplay loops or late-game experiences. Additionally, reviewers may rarely factor in microtransactions that will be thrown in the face of players who will continue to play the game after the one week it would take to make a review.
This is a genuinely excellent analysis. If more people took a step back and thought about the intentions behind all of the various forces that cause these issues we could see some meaningful progress.
This channel is pure edutainment!
In my opinion the Companies selling their products pretty often just with the hype...
Also with the graphics and presentation... Actually most AAA Games are sold with their presentation and graphic not with their gameplay.
Don't forget branding. EA Sports games only sell because they have brand deals and you can be sure that any game associated with names like Elder Scrolls, Battlefield, Blizzard etc. is going to sell like crack so long as they slap that title front and centre.
@@EmperorSigismund I think a big part of that is the obsession with getting games just as they come out, like they'll rot after one week or something. It's insane and I think really undermines the more layered games, like the stuff Arkane makes, which involve tons of different things you can do, that you probably wouldn't notice on you first time through. There seems to be this obsession with anything new combined with a disdain of waiting that's pushing games towards being the flashy roller-coaster rides people complain every Call of Duty is... but then the majority buy it.
beyond the fact that online communication (where much videogame talk happens) is strained to begin with, I think a lot of this boils down to the marketing technique of involving fans in the production of a game, as opposed to the (now very old) process of inviting them to experience the finished project, as one would a film or novel.
early access, pre-order, crowd-funding and so on.
fans shouldn't expect anything from a game until its done, and then they should research the game before buying to know what they're getting into. Devs shouldn't get free QA testing from early access or release unfinished games then patch to completion. Publishers shouldn't try to bribe people into gambling their money on a pre-order.
and this is down to the fans --- devs want free QA testing and funding for their unfinished product. Publishers want people wasting their money on pre-ordering a game they wouldn't otherwise buy. They have no incentive to change. It's only players who can push this by voting with their dollars.
Very glad I found this channel. Time to binge.
Essentially, journalists aren't practising what they are taught by not researching how games are developed, thus, causing a circlejerk/shit tornado of information that the basic human being would believe. This is a great video. Thank you. You should also plug Noodle's video on game development.
Aaand you got gamer gate wrong. Great.