TCG Design Log 2 - Resources, the Big, Obvious Problem
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- I continue walking through the design process of creating a tcg from scratch, this time stumbling into the first major problem in the design. (This game is not for sale, and probably never will be.)
The first video got way more interested comments than I was expecting, which is great! I was fully expecting half my audience to die of cringe, but the fact so many people are finding this interesting and are able to related to their own creative journeys makes me really glad I decided to put this game together. I spent a lot of time over the spring working on it, and it kind of threw off my release schedule a bit, but it does feel like I'm starting to get into a decent rhythm with releases again. At this point I have enough scripts to get me through the summer and into the fall, and I should be getting my preorders of Shadowverse and BSS any day now, promising a summer of tcg goodness. Hope your summers are off to a good start as well!
Don't forget about accessibility and practical considerations. Not all players will be able to afford gauntlets, so ideally cards shouldn't be razor sharp or very hot.
I've seen what Seto Kaiba can do with a tcg card and an unguarded hand - I'm just taking appropriate precautions.
ah resource system, talking from experience too is the most delicate part in making base rule. Little change can imply a lot of change on other side, and when you finnaly the system that 'just right' it feels so gooood.
Yeah, it's really satisfying when you get it right! This one hovered at 'good enough' for a while, then got overhauled when the game went through some big changes down the road for other reasons. After the change the resource system went back to being trouble, until finally a small tweak made everything fall into place. Finding a solution that just fits really is one of the best feelings in game design.
"climaxes from weissharz" bushiroad sure knew what they were doing with that one
I know I said it in my last comment of you other video, but I am so glad you are making these videos. This resource is genuinely extremely helpful for newer designers. The really makes me want to make a video on the tons of resource systems I went threw when finally settling on the one I have now. Another great video! Can't wait for part 3!
While I was watching, I thought about Seals. If they weren't intended to have unique effects, I might have had a Seal Zone that a player would place cards from their hand face-down in to count as Seals. Kinda Duel Masters-ish.
Since Seals are getting tossed it's a moot point, I suppose.
Eagerly awaiting the next episode already.
That definitely would have worked as well!
One thing that I believe is an error in your thinking is this; your resource system *IS* your game. Even if it's as simplified as you can get it, it is your game engine. For your game to be fun, your engine needs to be fun.
That said there are only so many ways to make a ccg and have it use cards as it's resource engine. Not all of them are as fun as others.
Lands may technically be bad design, but they are fun and players like them, thats part of why they keep playing.
Edit: ps, love your vids, allways happy to watch. Wish we could sit down and just talk game design.
A big reason people like lands is that over Magic's 30 year history a huge amount of work has been put into leaning into lands as design space precisely because the game is stuck with them. They can't get rid of them, so they need to take advantage of the fact that they exist. None of the innovations the game has made regarding lands have been able to fix the mana screw/flood non games issue, only mitigate them. It's basically making the best of a system despite being unable to address the biggest inherent problems.
@@tinfoilslacks3750 yeah I know. One of the many reasons I don't really play magic.
1:00 so you've made every deck into a ramp deck. There is a saying for ramp deck: "you just drew the wrong half of the deck" referencing how you drew ramp spells but no win cons. This is ASIDE from drawing a land/spell ratio.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but that is EXACTLY the feeling I was getting (also, that reminds me why I really don't like playing ramp decks).
I'm guessing that part 3 might end up dealing with the issues of the initial Lord design, being that from how it was initially laid out it seems like it's in every deck's best interest to bury their own boss card deep into their own deck and keep it there, then just try and mill the opponent's first. Because a game that you can only lose if a boss monster that doesn't begin on board gets destroyed seems like it'll naturally gravitate towards becoming slow and ignore most of the mechanics in favor of the optimal card destruction strategy.
While the rules are probably already set in stone I think that there would be plenty of game design space opened up if instead of necessarily needing to balance Fronts and Reverses if cards pulled double duty with dedicated Front and Reverse Zones, kinda like how in Vanguard there's the Front Row and Back Row, where every card CAN fight but only if they're in the Front Row or they have a specific effect that involves the Back Row, and how lower level cards are given mechanical reason to use throughout the entire game because of the Trigger, Sentinel, Boost, Guard and Intercept mechanics that are tied to levels 0, 1 and 2. The twist being that Fronts need to be placed in the Front Row where they're vulnerable and the gameplay loop involving moving the stronger Reverse cards to the Front Row is what I'd think.
IMO Fronts probably should also have some stats of their own although kept lower than Reverses. Urban fantasy does tend to have a lot of non-supernatural combatants, after all, and allowing Fronts to have limited combat ability would allow for that. The immediate thoughts are ones like a Jojo inspired deck being aggro and focused swapping Fronts and Reverses after combat to reflect how Stand Users are strong on their own and as a card game equivalent to an "Ora ora ora," or a deck comprised entirely of Fronts focused on taking out enemy Fronts before they can move cards from the Reverse Zone to the Front Zone, an organization specifically trying to only seal the supernatural (like the SCP Foundation). At the moment the design of the combat seems way more focused on the "Fantasy" side of Urban Fantasy - that the characters NEED to bring out the supernatural creatures to begin fighting.
Good call on the last major problem! There were a lot of issues with the Lord mechanic (enough for an entire video, funny enough) but one of them definitely was that despite being your biggest and most impactful boss monster, you actively did NOT want to have it in play. A vanguard-style system was definitely one solution - I ended up going a different way that I think also worked out well, but there were a lot of directions to take the game that would have also worked.
This series is awesome! I'm also making a card game yet again and it has been fun. I like how thematic your game is. Mine is quite lacking. I did make a good resource system tho I think, similar to the Digimon card game but there are 2 lines on the time tracker instead of one if you know what I mean :)
Glad to hear it's interesting! Flavour can be a funny thing - this game evolved its flavour really well, but for another game (yugioh-ish drafting game) I just settled on "museum battle." It surprisingly kind of works, with exhibits instead of monsters and reputation instead of life points, but sometimes it just comes down to where you can find enough images. Depends on where you start - with mechanics or theme. Either way works!
Interesting thoughts with the dice tracking the resources but it reminds my of playing MTG at a FNM level or higher. Where you more or less have to write down your life total so that a knock to the table wouldn't have an effect on the state. After knocking the table I still can see I have 4 Swamps on the field but if tracking my life with a spin down I then have to try and remember, go through previous turns or even ask my opponent what I was on.
Life at card store or kitchen table happens and you kind of want to mitigate these things.
Rambling at this point but it is probably why Chaos Orb and Falling Star with Dexterity have been removed as they add a dynamic part of the game.
Looking forward to your upcoming videos.
Yeah - I think a system like this is workable, but I've definitely seen my fair share of knocked dice at Magic nights. To the point I refuse to use D20s for life - it's D6s or paper for me. Using D6s reduces the risk enough that I think it works, but it's something to be aware of with a system like this.
oh my fucking god how is this not the first thing I see when I search "tcg design" why is the youtube search so bad?
I'm glad you found it! Thanks for stopping by - hopefully it was useful!
I recently discovered your channel and I must say that your content is very useful and helpful. I am in the process of conception and all your studies are a beacon.
Eu descobri seu canal recentemente, e devo dizer que seu conteúdo é muito útil e de grande ajuda. Estou no processo de concepção e todos seus estudos são um farol.
I'm glad it's been helpful!
can't wait for part 3!
Would you be willing to make a video about making card games like exploding kittens or cafe chaos. Or like the essentials of that kind of card game?
Might be interesting, but I've never made a game quite like that - in fact that category covers so much possible design space I'm not convinced I could pull together an essential list even if I tried. TCGs have to support a massive number of possible designs, which creates some limits on their design that makes analyzing them easier, at least in my experience.
0:00 Yea, mistakes happen. Though the intensity seems like the diff between stepping on a d4 and getting suplex ultra combo from mayor Mike Haggar.
0:23 All that power in one card type that is universal. Yea, bend over the game. Especially if you get seal bound or blissed with all the seals.
0:58 And that was probably one of the biggest goof ups in that game.
1:36 Climax cards, impacts, kind of the same but different flavors. At least by what I see it.
2:21 Makes me glad that my game has the resource depletion ideas in two ways. (One recoverable by special moves or cards and the other being the creature's energy that is able to be healed but is a risk move that can be tampered with by cards at the cost of other actions.)
2:29 I went full consume resources since it means you can cheese but can't do it all the time unless you want someone to cut it.
3:26 Having a devoted resource space is a thing but trying to minimize the space is a task in itself.
4:11 I feel that us why lands are TOO safe. They never are really targets. That and people are screaming never mess or target them when it is clear they should be as exposed as other cards.
5:09 If you did that maybe it could emboldened differently feeling playstyles like red seals offer damage boosting if it is returned face down to keep from going too fast in attack power or black giving a kill assist to disable a front while the backs are deck bounced/slain if linked to a used front under a limit.
5:42 Hopefully we'll find out why... eventually.
Overall, yes a resource system is needed but how it is applied can be just as tricky as the cards you make so try to watch yourself out there.
One of the things I realized about climaxes after thinking about why they worked (more or less) and Seals didn't, was that climaxes only ever do one thing. They have a ton of different rules, but they're all just to make sure the card does something no matter how it's flipped up. You can draw it, reveal it during an attack, or reveal it during damage, and it'll always do something. Seals were only played one way, but did a ton of different things when you played one. And yeah, I feel like resource interaction is much easier to pull off safely in a consumable system.
My card Economy:
Every card is a resource.
OPT you may put a card face up in your resource pool.
Play cards that have a level that is the same or below on how much cards is in your pool, they also must be the same colour.
All cards require 1 resource to be played, in MTG terms, you have a 7 mana creature and 8 mana in your pool, tap 1 to play the creature.
At the beginning of your turn, your resources reset, only 12 cards can be in said pool.
Other uses:
Use 1 resource to move units to different lanes (there are only 2, 1 that let's you attack but they cannot defend, but the other let's them defend but not attack, place them wisely).
To attack the opponent, you must use 1 resource per unit attacking.
To play a R'O Shield (a system I made), use 1 resource, (and mabey same colour, IDK), a R'O Shield is basically this: place a card from your hand under a unit, that card in your hand must be the same level or below the unit you are Shielding, it gains a shield, here is how it works:
The unit gains a Shield, the Shield durability is equal to the level of the card that is acting like a Shield, +00, your opponent now must take out the Shield to get to that unit's health, there IS over damage, example:
600 + R'O'S 400 = Unit with 400 R'O'S
Attacker attacks with 500 ATK
Unit Parries
Unit now has no Shield and 500 Life left.
If anyone wants to I can put a link to my games rules with more context, also open to suggestions, my resource engine has so much potential, but as the creator that created it I'm blind to some things.
I may have mentioned this before, but I do like this system - it's an interesting twist on a Duel Masters-style "every card is a resource" system.
I like a lot systems that limit *when* you can play a card without actually needing that many resources, to facilitate multiple plays per turn. Dragon Ball Super uses this A LOT, although it has to spell it out as effects.
@@tcgacademia
By combining MTG and Duel Masters's Resource System with its own spice!
I create a card game that also negates their flaws without vice!
I Fusion Summon!
Menorah!
@@fernandobanda5734 In my game, cards you play are during your turn only, with 2 exceptions, a card effect, and/or a Keyword (but the Keywords function like Inscryption, meaning instead of a Keyword in text, you see a symbol that shows you what it does, in this case it's a Lightning Bolt and it's name is Agility, these are called Signets).
@@kagemushashien8394 What I meant is that I like that your cards need a certain amount of resources in the pool without having to tap them all.
In my conceptual design. I have 1 resource system. Its based on a well established system known in many older card games. That would be like a "score." You reach a number you win, if you reach 0 you lose. Its a tug-a-war method between players. Where players are going to raise their own and reduce their opponents.
Mine uses a number of cards played per turn system. Your card resources are recovered at the end of turn.
play 0 draw 3
play 1 draw 2
play 2 draw 1
play 3 draw 0
I like the structure of that system - sounds like it would lead to some good gameplay!
On my game players start the game with 5 reenewable (untap) resources at the start of the game.
They can complete quests (mini objetives) to increase their resources pool.
That actually sounds pretty clever - it gives a good baseline of resources to use, but also gives the game some escalation and a sense of momentum.
@@tcgacademia To better explain, they start with 5 resources, and each card costs between 1-3. Players have 6 cards on hand, and draw up to 6 at the start of every turn. So it's a game where players do a lot on their turns from the start.
They have quests that are mini objectives they can complete. As they complete this quests they level up and increase their resources pool up to 9.
What's your opinion on 'each players gets 1 resource at the start of their turn'? Like Heartstone for example.
I think it's a little boring, and can be a bit messy in physical games, but it does work well when you want your resource system to be a bit on the simpler side and not something that takes a ton of player attention. One Piece is a physical game I've recent played that utilizes a system like this quite well.
@@tcgacademia netrunner is an evolution on that system with actions paired with the credit system
I’d like to know what is your favorite color for this game.
I'll let you know as soon as I figure out what they all do! Breaking down a colour wheel of effects has taken me longer than I expected, and really makes me appreciate just how well-designed mtg's colour wheel is. I've been enjoying black so far, though - both gameplay and flavour, although I'm also just having a ton of fun experimenting and developing all 4.
Have you done any comparisons with Hearthstone? I know it does a lot of things it is only capable of doing in a digital format, such as card generation, but I also feel like it does some things that other new TCGs could look at implementing, such as their mana system of gaining a guaranteed mana every turn up to a cap, which other CCGs such as Shadowverse have adopted as well. I play most TCGs but Hearthstone's mana system solved a lot of the resource issues of other games, like bricking in MTG from not drawing lands, or the feel bad moments of losing cards that you put in your deck that Pokemon and Vanguard have.
I haven't dived into any digital tcgs (physical ones already eat enough of my time as it is!), but there's a lot of interesting points there. Another neat one is how the pace of the games seems to be different - digital tcgs seem to aim to take less game time per game than physical. Hearthstone's system works really well for a straightforward digital resource system, but I've found it gets kind of clunky if you try to port it to physical. Turning cards sideways actually works pretty well in physical, but having them in a separate land deck, like Force of Will tcg, does capture a lot of the advantages of a Hearthstone-style system for a physical tcg.
I would just copy the land mechanic, but add cycling 1 on basics. I think that fixes the resource 'problem' you are attempting to solve. Don't make 1 drops so good that 'land, cycle' isn't a sub optimal turn 1 for midrange and control decks.
I've given it a lot of though myself as I love lands but in practice it doesn't seem like a good system overall for competitive play unless magic leans more into cycling lands and/or flip lands or creature lands... Theres actually a lot of options theyve printed but never leaned into and turn 1 fetchland is probably always going to reign supreme in that game.
Yeah, Magic definitely has a lot of options open to them if they really wanted to smooth out the rough edges of the land mechanic. Land systems work well enough - I just prefer more non-land systems like Wixoss or Digimon. That's just a preference thing, though.
i have a question. How did you make your cards? Did you draw them yourself or used a programm for the card layout?
The art is just pulled from pixiv, none of that is mine, but if you're talking about the layout, then yeah, I did that myself. I'm not really a graphic artisit - I just added squares and gradients until I had something presentable. For the printing, I used printplaygames.
After a week of on-and-off thought I would love for you to get into a bit more detail in these episodes.
I get that its time consuming to edit all the swirling parts and sliding text, but one can ask.
Yeah, I kind of struggled figuring out how in-depth to go here. I want to give a good overall image of the development process, but I also don't want to spend a ton of time on rules iterations for a game that will likely never be released. One of the things I do want to try at some point this year is live-streaming, where I'll be able to go more in-depth, step-by-step through the design process, in all its messy glory.
@@tcgacademia if you're already invoking the example of your game, don't be afraid to go in depth into it. You can still generalise what you've learned when you present the conclusions. Or at least that's my opinion.
How to play moncolle?
3:20 this camera angle makes me nauseous. It's from a an angle as if the cameraman was standing on his hands.
One solution is to flip the clip upside down so that it looks like you're watching your opponent instead of your board while doing equilibristics on the table.
Getting a better camera set-up is something I've had on my 'to-do' list for a while, although it's also one of those things I never seem to actually get to.
@@tcgacademia you can _just_ fix it in post (at least this specific problem)