Sorcerer VERSUS Wizard, who is the BEST?
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- Опубликовано: 21 июн 2024
- Lets settle this debate once and for all! Who is truly the best class in dungeons and dragons, the wizard or the sorcerer? well its not even close I'll tell you that much...
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If this is the gulf between Wizards and Sorcerers, imagine the gulf between them and any martial class.
Level 20 4 elements monk vs level 10 chronurgy wizard.
As a Wizard player, I'm using the Sorceror tears in these comments as material components.
There is only one argument for sorcerer over wizard: multiclassing. Sorcerers are a better multiclass for more classes.
I think their multiclassing potential is pretty equal actually. The wizard gets some great subclass features and amazing utility, for most of the builds you might want sorcerer for, the main (and oftentimes only) real argument is metamagic, which can be obtained through metamagic adept, so on most builds if I'm gonna choose between picking up some chronurgy/divination/bladesinger wizard with mm adept or sorcerer levels, I'm going wizard more than half of the time
More classes share a primary stat with sorcerers, is where I'm going with my statement.
@@GCClaycomb if you're not going for more than a 2 level dip, you're not gonna need high int anyways, so if you just wanna grab shield, silvery barbs and portent then int is a dump stat
@@sharalakidi think its more meant as having sorcerer as primary and dipping into warlock to grab eldritch blast and other nice stuff.
Sorcerer because Sorcerers of the Sea Shore is a much better tongue twister than Wizards of the Coast
wizards of waverly way tho.
I know it doesn't usually come up, but the spellbook is also the weakness of Wizards.
No Book, No Spells.
And the sheer gold cost for inscribing extra spells and getting materials is staggering, just billions.
Just scribe and sell spell scrolls. Make bank.
This is one of the biggest things most people forget is for wizards, their biggest strength is there biggest weakness. It also depends on how hard DMs enforce on how much downtime the players get, as well as on if enemy attacks or spells, including friendly fire, will damage the book or not.
That's very true, and the only reason DMs don't take away Wizard's spell book is because it's mean; I mean there is literally nothing else a Wizard can do if they loose their spells: no armor, like 3 vague weapons at most, d6 hit die, and proficiency in Arcana or History. Just a sad, yet knowledgeable, towns person.
In my best Gator voice from Pack Tactics: “But outlaw, if a wizard looses his spell book he gets hurt really badly”
I mean, if I am a wizard at a high enough level, I'm just making a second spare spellbook locked in an interdimensional space that only I can access anyway
Edit, or I'll play a scribes wizard
Before watching the video, it is wizards. I wish sorcerers were equals with wizards in some ways but nope. The only upside for sorcerer is meta magic I think.
Edit: Not even sorcery points :(
Wizard is mathematically INSANE, easily the best standalone class in the game, whoever greenlit the balancing of 5e should enlist in the military. Congrats on your LSAT's btw!
4e was balanced, people hated it, every class was the same, so for 5e they were like, eh, let's do more balance than in earlier editions but let's not go over the top with the whole game balance thing
@@nyanbrox5418 i get what you're saying, but the correlation betwen balancing of 4e vs 5e and the hate for 4e vs 5e is not a case of causation imo, if you look at other ttrpg's or wargames it's clear that making a balanced game that has classes that feel unique is possible, but I do agree it's not an easy task. Some examples of ways to balance spellcasters with "I'm gonna bonk you" is giving them some features that improve their damage output and action economy by using expendable resources and social/utility abilities that make their rp and problem solving more interesting. This works because at the core of it's mechanics, d&d is not a roleplaying game, not a character building game, not a mathematical game, it's a resource management game, and while it operates on many other aspects like those listed above, the most important core mechanic is managing your resources like action economy, hit points, class/race abilities, spell slots etc. and that's what's important in the balancing of such a game
@@nyanbrox5418 balance wasn’t the part people hated though. It was more so how they achieved that balance
@ethans9379 this is true, one of the ways they achieved that balance was making everyone the same, so class was more of a flavour pick, and role was actually your class, of which you had 4
4e is a good edition, it just doesn't match some of the insane variance with 5e,
Also remember that in 5e it obviously took quite a bit before people figured out what was good and what wasn't, and the team was alot smaller back then
If they could go back in time and do things differently, such that players wouldn't be adverse to change now, they would likely make larger sweeping changes, but they really want to keep things backwards compatible, and in order to do that they can only add things, not take much away
As such I don't think the shield spell is getting nerfed to not work so well in armour, because that hurts the Eldritch knight *which would maybe have never existed or whatever*
But also they tried to design 5e with so much different stuff, that everyone would have something fun to try, again, they were trying to include possibilities, rather than looking to necessarily optimise each of them, the fundamental design philosophy has changed now that they have a decade of playing the game and feedback from fans about what they really enjoyed playing
4e was something that is so niche, it caused a D&D splinter group, who only play 4e and nothing else to this day, practically a different game
@@nyanbrox5418 i posted a paragraph or two in response and now I see it's not here, maybe auto modded somehow idk, point is, I'm not writing that thing again
Balance doesn't equal a bad game, trust me bro
Wizards are not assured to get access to extra spells. Scrolls are magical treasure.
You still learn more spells than a sorcerer anyway and have better spells to choose from. A sorcerer knows at most 25 spells by level twenty whereas a wizard learns 44
@@OffbeatOutlaw All certainly true. I generally agree with all your points. It's really just the assumption that wizards will get all spells that I think goes against the general rule of theorycrafting
@@danielbeshers1689 potentially, though if they ever fight another wizard there’s an entire spell book to learn from. I think it’s very reasonable to assume that at the very least if they ever fight a wizard they could explode the number of spells they learn. Additionally, learning new spells is at least an option for the wizards, while not guaranteed it’s at least available.
@@OffbeatOutlaw Do you assume that fighters find magic weapons?
@@danielbeshers1689 I would assume if they fought a creature of a similar nature to themselves that they would be able to take their equipment. If you kill a fighter you take their weapon. Kill a wizard take their book.
I’ve made a few changes to sorcerer in my games to try and offset this.
1. using spell points instead of slots for mechanical difference
2. having the sorcerer being their own spell casting focus due to their magic coming from them
3. Giving each sorcerer subclass expanded spell lists that they get too learn
Might do more changes in the future with the meta magic options to make them stronger
Treantmonk: Remember feats arent free
Offbeat: Fuck that even subclasses are free.
Me: So if you have unlimited downtime, money, 3-4 different subclasses, and a feat... then yes you have matched the sorcerer
Also no level 20 druid is best counterspeller, then sorcerer
If you have divination sorcerer, a feat and are the same level as a sorcerer they will have more spells, versatility, and capability than your sorcerer.
Also a level 20 Druid is just the biggest tank in the game
Distant spell works on touch spells (extend to 30ft), and non-attack spells. Spell sniper requires a spell attack roll. So it's not useless. That doesn't make it great, just situationally useful. Range is not given the respect it should. Like hand crossbow's tiny range is considered good enough.
Yet the wizard has the ONE weakness no other spellcaster has... And while people will try to sell you on it being their greatest strenght, combined with the hubris that comes with playing a wizard, THE SPELLBOOK CAN BURN
Personally, I'd like to make an argument for Distant spell. It's not bad, just kind of niche. Like yes, spell sniper will give you the same doubling, BUT if you take both, distant spell can make touch spells 30 foot range, which then gets doubled by spell sniper and makes it 60 foot range. Obviously it's contentious and could be argued and ruled differently at every table, but I dunno man, 60 foot cure wounds sounds kinda nice to me.
hightened spell is not there to power up your fireball but hit a dominate or hold person.
high value single target spells.
also looking at both side by side you rarely want that many spells so I would just choose based on subclass as those give more features than the class itself
also time to make a homebrew magic item that gives the spellbook effect and make my party of casters fight over it.
Man looking like dante if he had brown hair
In Pathfinder...
Death!
You're also trying to compare the sorcerer base class to wizard subclass traits. They scale differently, and that kinda throws your balance out the window
I literally had a segment where I compared the subclasses where I said that while the sorcerer tries to catch up with spells the wizard takes the whole meta magic list with a single ability and still has leftovers
Earthquake , Flame blade and Insect plaque. So Druid spells
my aberrant mind sorcerer has one advantage over a bladesinger. rizz.
What about Metamagic Adept for wizard it kinda takes what makes the sorcerer good and gives it to the wizard
He mentioned that already
You can dubbel the time of suggestion. That really fun ;)
Metamagic gripes:
Careful Spell- Spells like Hypnotic Pattern are sweet and don’t let you avoid your allies. More so, Evoker Wizards can’t shape non-evocation spells.
Distant Spell- But Spell Sniper + Distant Spell + Eldritch Spear! (1200ft range for the memes!)
Extend Spell- Best used on 10 minute concentration spells. Spiritual Guardians is one of the best spells to use it with.
Metamagic might not be as good as the Spellbook and Spell access of Wizards in a vacuum, but don’t undercut how good these Metamagics are
I think the background had it first.
for subtle spell I feel like how often would you notice someone holding something relatively small,
let alone in combat also if the person is holding the object there is still no signs they cast that spell till the item disappears
Extend spell is good for spells that have an average duration like invisibility or fly or locate object.
A hot debate inbour house.
I like to extend summoning spells. But usually with multiclassing because Sorcerers lack summons.
Batman is a good metaphor, because wizard is genuinely the class that beats anyone with prep time
In pathfinder
As much as I love the flavor of sorcerers, they were designed to be inferior to wizards. All the good utility spells were removed from the sorcerer's spell list. But even if they were there, sorcerers don't know enough spells to use them anyway. Metamagic is nice, but not worth the lack of spell options.
Heightened Spell is useful for save or suck effects like Hold Person, not for damage spells
And it’s still better to just be a wizard
True, true
So, you mention having played all the classes multiple times. Just want to know if you have tried the Halfling Path of the Ancients Barbarian where you ignore the STR mod to damage & Reckless attack in order to tank? I had a great deal of fun playing this as inspired by Cody on the Taking 20 channel, though at 9th level i took levels in Swashbuckler-Rogue & we played to 20th. I will miss it, if I play D&D-2024.
Wizards except in multi-classing. The charisma casters have more multi-classing options
Hey offbeat outlaw…haven’t seen your videos in a while…you ok? You look…ummm…different. You alright man?
I grew out my hair, didn’t realize this meant I was going through a crisis
In many ways, IMO Wizards are better in noncombat utility (they can even be better at some niche social stuff if DM allows variant skill-ability checks) and possibly tanking depending on subclass (which in theory no spellcaster should be doing) until the mid-late game when they can pull far more stuff Sorcerers can't, while Sorcerers win at early glass cannon combat (Quicken Scorching Ray and Twin Firebolt and bam you just rolled a ton of dice at level 3 slaughtering a handful of spread-out goblins from 120 ft away) in the early game and potentially social situations (even with Expertise ability scores can matter especially if those with the higher ability gets it, albeit Eloquence Bards slaughter Sorcerers hands down here).
Distant Spell: you utterly missed the 2nd bit, about turning a touch spell into a ranged spell. Admittedly this is as about as nichely useful as Subtle, but still I'd consider it equivalent. Also probably better on a Divine Soul than any other Origin just cause then you can range Cure.
Subtle Spell: regarding material components, I'd say it depends on the spell (does it visibly emanate from you), situation (are you holding your focus before you start to cast), and DM ruling of how arcane foci eliminate material components (do they glow or require a wave even with Subtle in play or something?). Otherwise, NGL I'd probably allow an Arcana check (probably a DC of 20 minus spell level or something to that effect, maybe impose disadvantage if you covered yourself in fake auras or actual magic items even if unattuned) on anyone who doesn't have Nondetection / Mind Blank active from someone with an active Detect Magic looking at you as you are casting to detect the spell being cast, as well as allowing Detect Thoughts to know when you're casting where if you know someone is in your head and want to try and bluff the mind reader you'll have disadvantage on Deception while they have advantage on Insight but I'd probably allow such an attempt.
Spellbook: never forget that the power of this, just like the power of Book of Ancient Secrets, depends on your DM's willingness to let you find the scrolls you want. The more such scrolls you get, the stronger it is, the fewer, the less impactful (still strong on the ritual front at least either way but still).
Izzet Engineer: not all tables allow these, for good reasons. Kinda like not all tables allow Dragonmark races, Strixhaven Initiate, etc.
Wild Magic: to be fair, the power level of this depends on the DM's willingness to recharge Tides of Chaos, and on the opinion of the divine powers of luck.
Divination: remember, you don't choose what you get each day, and you only get two numbers for the entire day until 14, at which point you only get 3. If all your rolls are 10's, what are you gonna do, ask the demon king to wait until tomorrow? This can be extremely powerful, but it cannot be spammed and depends on random chance pretty heavily. Personally I like to contrast this not with the far more spammable metamagic, but with Restore Balance from Clockwork Soul, which lets you negate advantage or disadvantage proficiency times per day at the cost of a reaction; maybe not as much potential, but up to twice as many uses depending on level and even easier to abuse in a dip (I love CS 1 / Bard X for probability manipulation).
Expert Divination: not sure if this is more due to someone not thinking it through back in the original PHB production, or if the blame falls more squarely on the shoulders of the Xanathar writers for making a damaging Divination spell, but yeah this is broken lol
Metamagic Adept: remember this is 2 points per day, while Sorcerers get level per day before magic items or converting spells into them. Yes it's an option but it's extremely limited.
Split Enchantment: minor nitpick but Confusion is an AOE an ineligible unless the DM is cool with a massive inconsistency lol
Saving throws: I'd say the primary ability impact is a tossup that depends on setting more than anything else, because Sorcerers are resistant to Bane, Banishment, possession, and a handful of rarer stuff, but Wizards are better against illusions (granted only a few do saves instead of Investigation checks but still), Mind Sliver & Whip, Feeblemind, Intellect Devourers, Mind Flayer & equivalent psi-blasts, etc
3d comment and not important to the conversation but in dnd lore it's definitely wizard, they become gods sometimes.
I had a sorcerer achieve apotheosis. It took shenanigans equal to what it takes for wizards. Any character can, really.
haven't watched it yet, already guessing it's Wizard
Counter point. Sorcerer can twin spell cast wish. Which means you get TWO simulacrum.
Unfortunately, Wish is range of self, and Twinned Spell specifically states that the spell you cast with it can't have a range of self.
DM will never give more spells, that quicken spell, helps alot when you need to spend your action in other things, like hiding, dash, etc, extend spell will give you the polymorph tyrannosaur for 2 hours, the divine soul has a thick list of spells, and FLY, so fly no con and cure wounds, take Magic Initiate, or better one level of warlock, and quiken an eldrich blast every time, and be a free bladesinger flying tyrannosaur, ALSO GOOD TO HAVE CON SAVES PROFICIENCY, you change your spells every level, you have super social skills and thich charisma, coffe lock your sorcerer points, and use wish to cast simulacrum over the wizard, any wizard, also sorcerer gets feat for ritual for the divine soul
also take 2 levels of divination wizard + divine soul (with one hex blade)to have (chosen one + portent), ad the cartomancy feat to have all the wizard spells. like true polymorph
i would like a definition for "strongest" cause if we mean useful definitely the wizard I had no doubt but like in a 1v1 wizard vs sorcerer I dunno fam I dunno (like literally I don't know) is for a fact that no class can win a 1v1 against a level 20 cleric if the cleric goes first (guess fucking why XD)
this could actually be a fun series just have a collab with various RUclipsrs where you 1v1 them until you've had every single 1v1 possible with the DND classes
Hi where is the link to the video about spirit shroud? Couldn't find it in the description 😅
Offbeat Outlaw : The Most Powerful Character in Dungeons and Dragons (EVER) | D&D 5e Powerbuild
I don't think YT let's us share links, but just put that in your YT search bar - I'm pretty sure that's the one you want
Content of the Video :
1 - Wizard Variants (Nuclear Wizard)
2 - Spirit Shroud 5th level + Scorching Ray = Bread & Butter
3 - versatile / powerful / "big phoq-off Wizard"
From what caster level would spirit shroud + scorching ray start being effective? Would spirit shroud also be effective for a warlock + martial multiclass? Let's say I multiclass a warlock with echo knight and take the war caster feat? So I can action surge to fire eldritch blast twice, then use my reaction to eldritch blast again as an opportunity attack? Would that be viable? I'm actually considering doing this multiclass for my hexblade, and ask the DM to allow a HB invocation that allows casting a cantrip with extra attack like the blade singers have (cause why should wizards get all the fun?)
@@TheSimoFactor So many options/character "builds" are viable as soon as you have One 5th Level Spell Slot, for 5th lvl Spirit Shroud + Scorching Rays; it's effective on any Caster - I believe Spirit Shroud is going to use up your Concentration though, so no Spell Hex, but you do get your Class Feature Hex
17 Bladesinger Wizard / 2 Fighter / 1 Warlock Hexblade is INCREDIBLY BUSTED if your DM doesn't allow the HB invocation
@@SunWukongSonGoku cool I will definitely try it with my scribes wizard once he's high enough in level. But for the hexloc I was wondering if it's viable without wizard levels, using Eldritch blast and extra attack. My warlock is currently level 5 and I am trying to convince the DM to actually allow 6th level hexloc feature (which kinda sucks) with the bladesinger's 6th for extra attack with cantrip (so stupid that they are the only ones with access to this)
@@TheSimoFactor I would assume it's still viable, though you'll be more relying on your eldritch blasts for damage, with your spell slot limitations per combat - Spirit Shroud will still up your overall damage turn by turn, especially if your DM will allow you to have the bladesinger's 6th lvl extra attack, though I'm not 100%, as I haven't tried it without the Spell Slots the Wizard comes with.
The idea is kinda "become a deadly mini-gum" with Spirit Shroud + Scorching Ray, and is "more optimal" the more Schorching Ray's you can cast
Sorcerer because they arent NERDS. Problem solved. 30 minutes saved.
Jail
Dude, this is DND. Being nerd is by default.
🤣
Sorry got out of jail with a subtle spell mage hand to rob the guard into a quickened fireball to remind them I like fireballs. @OffbeatOutlaw
Divine soul sorcerer is better than any wizard subclass.
Level 20 boot camp for traps nad dungeons and or magical items/loot PLEASE
Prepared Spell Casting is just the better way to go; however Meta Magic makes the Sorcerer better at doing more damage in one turn. So If they were to fight, the Sorcerer would be burning more resources and doing more damage, but if the Wizard can survive(good luck with that), then the Sorcerer is screwed.
However Hot Take: Cleric is the best spell caster, so they get Prepared Spell Casting & they know their entire spell list automatically, 10 Domain Spells, d8 hit die, and plenty of Weapon and Armor Proficiencies to keep them alive. Assuming the Cleric and Wizard have the same Int/Wis score the Cleric will always have more spells prepared & they're more tanky.
The wizard can actually deal more damage due to spirit shroud and scorching ray
@@OffbeatOutlaw Whilst those particular spells can be useful(sorcerer has Scorching Ray too though), I would argue a twin spell and quickened spell meta magics almost exclusively make the Sorcerer a better Damage Dealer while burning more resources. My comment was simply saying if these two, lets say 8th level Wizard vs Sorcerer Battle, occurred, then the Wizard would have the edge in almost everything, except Damage Dealing because one of these characters can twin spell/quickened spell a fireball or lightning bolt or whatever and the other can't, even maybe Con saving throws the Sorcerer has Proficiency and Wizard is more focused on Wisdom because of the danger of something controlling their mind; however, if it were a battle of attrition the Wizard would mast definitely win. Not to mention the amount of Utility and Control Spells wizards have usually make the player think a bit more and wage their attacks and resources more carefully. So, a quick battle goes to the Sorcerer in my opinion, and a long battle goes to the Wizard.
@@colbyrackler3915 scorching ray + spirit shroud allows the wizard to deal over 500 damage in a single turn BEFORE multiclassing. This isn’t subjective, it’s math
@@OffbeatOutlaw Hmm, I didn't know about that combo until now, but that's interesting.
Metamagic critiques: Your missing the huge point on the benifits of Careful and Heighten Spell. I wouldnt use those two on damage spells that are not save or suck spells. You are supposed to use those on save or suck spells you NEED to go off.
Have a giant beating the crap out of you in a corner? Heighten Pychic Lance, because his Wiz sucks but now hes at disadvantage which means I have a super high chance of stunning this mofo and getting away. Yes, not the best example because there are other ways, but mybpoint still stands. Need to Planar Bind a creature? Heighten spell. Is a creature magically resistant? Now you even the odds.
Carefull. Its not for fireball....that would be suboptimal. Its for Hypnotic Pattern. Save or suck. Thats useful
Distance is nichely good if you want to get into ariel battles with dragons and outflank them. Sniper only affects cantrips, not Spells like Distance does. Fireballs at 240 feet. Do you need that? Meh...
Heightened spell regardless of the fact that it has a use case is still arguably worse than a portent. On any given day with 2 portents a day a play can expect at a 75% for at least one of the rolls to be below 10. Being able to guarantee a low roll is far more useful than disadvantage.
Hypnotic pattern could be useful with careful spell, except for the fact that most spells that are save or suck allow you to chose targets that are safe, example slow.
@OffbeatOutlaw Which is the core feature of one subclass of Wizard. Heighten is available to all Sorcerers. Also, what good is your portent if I counterspell your spell subtly and you have no recourse?
You: I cast hold person and give you my 2 Portent! Haha! Divination Wizards win!
Me: Hold my beer. Subtle Counterspell. Now it's my turn. Bonus Action Hound of Ill Omen - order grapple attack. Subtle Blindness Deafness. Now you're blind and grappled. I hope you rolled a 14 or higher on your portent rolls because you are going to need them. End of turn. 😀
@OffbeatOutlaw also, you don't make arguments using the worst case scenarios which you did. You used the most unoptimized spells to argue Careful spell sucks. Once again, Wizards have to pick a class and stick to those specific features like Portent or Bladesong. All Sorcerers get metamagic on top of their class features.
Be real my dude.
@@007ohboy meta magic adept is a class feature available to ALL spellcasters. Portent can then be subtle cast. Done
@OffbeatOutlaw tsk tsk. Material components....I see you using your spell focus. Subtle....counterspell. I'm a wizard killer. I've slain many casters in many campaigns using sorcerers. Why? Because we maybe "worse wizards" but we are the best Antimages. Admit it. It's our little niche ability that even makes us able to dip a toe into S Tier. We Sorcerer players know our weaknesses better than any. We also know our strengths if we are even 50% optimized.
See why it's useful that some spells use no material components, and maybe there's a reason to pick those over "DPR" spells?
Not everything is "700 nova damage" a round. Sometimes simple things are resolved with a Fireshield and a Subtle Counterspell.
PS: How often do you even choose Metamagic Subtle as a Wizard? Honestly? And even if you do, is two times enough for the cost of one feat? 😀
I'd honestly consider it when I build my one shot death combo Wizard, but I know 0 mage mains that ever pick Subtle Spell as the Metamagic Adept choice. Not impossible....but you also have to know your spells that combo with that feat. Spells like Blindness/Deafness.
Chaos bolt can not be twinned. The restriction is unable to target additional not doesnt.
Never said it could be twinned…
@@OffbeatOutlaw 13:06 and 13:07 sorry idk how to link the time in the video.
Ahh it auto links.
@@Razdasoldier woops absolute mental block there on my part, musta been sipping some good wine while making this
Alot of games I have playd in thoguh dont have much if any downtime that can let the wizard shine and hick bearly BEARLY EVER have I seen scrolls as loot
Why would a Sorcerer waste a feat on Spell Sniper just to avoid taking Distant Metamagic o_O? Ewww no ty.
The point was that spell sniper can replicate its effects in a lot of ways not to replace the meta magic
did you pass
Not really that type of test and results aren’t out yet unfortunately, should know by the 26th
Bro looks more like asmongold every vid
Ha! Here, Ill help your algorithm. Sorcerers are better Antiwizards. Come fight me, nerds.
Now back to the video...
the simple reason why the wizard is better is you dont have to deal with all the high charisma bs soccers do like talking and rp. wizards can just be the smart quite caster
from the sorcerers spells known section "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
I say this in the video. Being restricted to changing your spell only during level up means that while the wizard can swap out new spells every day and learn spells on a wim you are forced into a very rigid spell list
Wizards are better because they know how to read
Burn the book.
Subtle Spell - Huge benifit missed. You can Subtly Counterspell/Dispel an enemy mage. Thats huge! No counterspell battles, just....your spell goes poof. And its thematic because you look like a badass and are just chillling and looking at the caster like, "what?".😅
Thats the beauty of Subtle Spell. There are many spells that dont have material costs which makes them quite useful. Blindness/Deafness is an OK spell to use on weak con casters to blind them. But its even better when you are able to blind the Archmage and he cant even see the spell to counter it and goes blind with his whole 0 Con score...
If you are blind, a lot of your spells cant be used....like Misty Step. You have to SEE where you are going. Thats the real beauty of Subtle Spell casting besides also being useful in social encounters.
I talked about counterspell doing that in the vid.
@OffbeatOutlaw Did you? 😅😂
"Wizards are better counterspellers"
Riddle me this, optimizer. If you stuck a Sorcerer with Subtle Metamagic in a box with a Wizard to have a spell duel, who would win? Who really is the better counterspeller? The one with a small bonus, or the one that you can't even see casting the counterspell?
That's a real easy thought experiment right there. 😊
To be fair, each time you say a Wizard Subclass's features blows the Sorcerer "out of the water" (dramatic dunk sound), you are only talking about one subclass. Not all wizards get those features. Any Sorcerer can pick any metamagic tyoe they want.
If you play an Evoker. You dont have the Diviners portance. If you play a Chrono Wizard, you dont get the Evokers Sculpting Spell. Any subpar Sorcerer class can get any of those metamagics. Thats the difference.
Yes, WOTC underpowered the Sorc and tried to address it with the Shadow Sorc and then Abbrerant and Clockwork. Thats very true. The A - S tier is those three newer subclasses for sure.
Yea, technically, wizard is better, but I still like sorcerer better
Raw
Spirit shroud isn't a good spell, it's ok
What do you mean "the hallmark of high level play"
I think you mean spirit guardians...
Spirit shroud is the best damage scaling spell for level 10+ allowing over 1000 damage to be dealt in a single round without prep time
@@OffbeatOutlaw I will have to watch your video on that
@OffbeatOutlaw ok, I watched the important bits of the video, basically you hit 1k damage by upcasting multiple scorching rays in the same turn and by using overchannel on spirit guardians
Okies, so, all of those things require DM oversight to function, and by very high level, we are talking levels 19 and 20, obviously
We are assuming a DM lets you overchannel spirit shroud, for multiple rolls, when according to Crawford this goes against it's design intent, (that being said you are using it for a scorching ray blast, so I would allow it to work for a single scorching ray attack fine)
Also, this isn't taking into account armour class, it is using our 9th, 8th, and 7th slot, so you are definitely burnt for those the rest of the day
Also, we are still talking 1 turn of prep time, as your archmage charges up his ultimate spell of single target hyperdeath
We also are assuming automatic hits vs likely fairly decent ACs at this level, so this is not a DPR calculation
We are assuming that our DM allows multiclassing, which is normal for optimised builds
We are assuming our DM allows simulacrum, to be cast at all, a spell with gamebreaking implications in and of itself simply as a non-concentration summon
Normalised: straight classed, Simulacrum banned, turn 1, spirit shroud (level 7, 3d8) + fire bolt, 65% accuracy, crit chance 5%,
Ex Dmg:29.85
Turn 2, scorching ray, (Overchannels the spirit shroud for this turn only), upcast, level 8
Each beam, 2d6 + 24 dmg = 31
9 × 31 × 0.7 +int = 200 average damage
Average DPR 114 for 2 turns
Turn 3, second 7th level slot can do another 119.8 damage or so, less because overchannel has worn off, though I'd rule you could spend hp to reapply it, and after all that you still have your 9th level slot for later
This assumes you hit with at least 1 beam for the int mod
Honestly, if you assume your DM is me, this is still quite alot of "sustained burst damage", for a blaster mage, I will absolutely start considering scorching ray on more wizards, this looks very fun
Truly enlightening, we all know wizard is the most versatile class. Just doo doo on the sorcerer until minute 28. ❤😂🎉 i understand your schtick is hyperbole but damn!
Sorcerers. Because Metamagic - Subtle Spell and Quicken/Twin
Sorcs can do pretty much anything the Wizard can do and anything the Wizard can do thats different than us can easily be countered.
Oh, wow! Im so jealous. You can turn into a gold dragon. Subtle Dispell 9th level. No save. No reaction. Just bye bye 9th level huge spell you were probably counting on.
Simulacrum? Pssssh. Wish. And if you think you can rely on the exploit of infinite Sim clones with the Wish/Sim bug, Id just ask you to tell me the percentage of DMs that would even entertain that mess. 😂
Tiny Hut? Crap. Got us there. Would really like to have that. Theres Demiplane or other go arounds.
Planar Binding? Honestly I cant wait for the expanded 5.5 spells for Sorcs but I got this by just playing Clockwork and swapping out the Additional spells for this. Now I can Bind Balors and Pitfiends. Also...Wish.
Mindblank? Another one that Tees me off when WOTC thought we shouldnt have access to it. F em though. We have rest tricking. And if your DM wont allow a RAI/RAW rest trick using Wish to cast Mindblank with your unexpended spell slot, you can still cast it right before you rest and when you wake up, youll have your 9th level slot back and 16 hours of protection. I win.
Sorcerers eat Wizards for breakfast if they know what they are doing. Subtle Counterspell, wiotch! Subtle Blindness Deafness. Wheres your weak con score at, enemy Wizard? Fail! Try to get away, Counterspell....Subtly....now eat a Quicken Eldritch Brrrrrrlast....because my class actually synergizes so well with Warlocks, half my breathern have sold their souls in order to obtain a cantrip... 😂😂😂
Did you watch the video? Like at all?
@OffbeatOutlaw Yes. Do you understand Subtle Counterspell at all or are you still insisting Wizards are "better counterspellers"? 🤣 🤣
Which one wins? Not seeing a spell you can't counter or a bonus to your counterspell check?
Wall of Force? Clockwork Sorcerer.
Spirit Shroud? Meh! Ill take Quicken Fireballs + Eldritch Brrrrrlast.
Feeblemind? Its neat but many of the high level caster you want to use this on have Mindblank up constantly. It would work wonders on casters who dont have protections for sure. I trick rest Wish - Mindblank just to guard against mental attacks.
Maize? Mental Prison. Not the same but pretty close.
You have a better arguement with Forcecage since its so useful and youd almost never have to cast it using a Wish spell. I purposefully take Disintigrate just because Forcecage exists.
it's a jack of all trade master of none, still better than a master of one scenario. Yes a wizard is more versatile but in direct head to head combat, a sorcerer will come out on top everytime. A wizard loses all its options if in an antimagic zone. A sorcerer will not.