Academia is TOXIC! Here's why...
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- In this video, I share with you why academia is so toxic. It includes anecdotes that I have experienced personally and what I observed during my 15 years in academia.
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - introduction
0:37 - limited amounts of money
2:30 - being first matters
4:20 - metrics and comparison
6:37 - the system creates toxic people
9:45 - universities always want more
12:23 - luck plays a huge role
![Things you don't say out loud in academia [9 open secrets]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sgAlFPMugWw/mqdefault.jpg)
20+ years of trying to prove that you are smarter than everyone else is bad for the human character.
+
Including the "gifted" myth about schoolkids, pressure abusing them to become academics, and assuming that's what everyone bright should do.
That was the actual first thing I thought about instead of what he said, lol
@Certyfikowany Przewracacz Hulajnóg Elektrycznych I bet you got the jab
@Certyfikowany Przewracacz Hulajnóg Elektrycznych Yeah, you lost when you were picking a name already
I think acedemia can attract people with strongly narcissistic traits
Yeah at some point you have to stop blaming the system and look at personal responsibility for continuing to engage in that system as well. I mean after a while everybody realizes the problems, so why do people stay in it? A simple cost-benefit analysis quickly leads to the conclusion that people who stay in academia really must be getting off on the prestige it provides.
Kinda on point! Cos intellectualism can lead to arrogance.
@@Teilnehmer In my experience, the more prestigious (high off their own shit) professors are the worst at teaching and the more students despise and disrespect them. It's kinda funny the more respectable a professor thinks they are, the less people actually respect them.
@@Teilnehmer Not necessarily. At least for chemists, access to equipment and chemicals for research is nonexistent. Trying to do research at home is likely to get your neighbors calling the cops on you, thinking you’re making meth. And not many homes come standard with a fume hood. :P
It is so odd that I also see this trait alot specially in more reputable universities I am not sure what is going on. 🤔
It's the rampant elitism that gets me. These people will spend their lives critiquing social structures and be completely oblivious to how they treat staff. There is sometimes this air around that if a person doesn't have at least a masters they are not worth talking to. It's completely ridiculous.
Thats most of the ppl i knew in new york. To me, a poor girl, they felt ..hungry.
I cant possibly like your comment enough. This level of brutality and antisocial behavior is unheard of in some places but also, the norm in certain neighborhoods in long island, jersey, chicago, l.a. Refusal to eye contact, basic acknowledgment, a smile etc.
Well said. I noticed something like, that, too -- their mistreatment of and disregard for staff and part-timers while "caring" so much for the marginalized, all the while preaching cultural relativism.
I always thought if you're so gifted or skilled with intellectual ability then why guard your ideas against others? A truly thoughtful person has a fount that keeps flowing. I think academia is toxic because the people at the top are not the thoughtful ones. The lying, conniving, treacherous ones climb over them. The system rewards bad behavior.
Couldn't agree more. Academia is a glorified cesspool chock-full of extremely pedantic and Machiavellian two-faced narcissistic sociopaths who are highly adept at pursuing self-interest by career climbing/credentialism. These hypocritical, predatory frauds are also bunch of dissembling and/or combative petty dictators/insecure control freaks. 🤢🤮😠🤬😡
Time to lock and load? OK im reloaded!
The intelligent ones left academia long ago, trust me on this...
@@JakeSummers2424 yeah they went into finance
@@edwardmacnab354 certainly not politics
Academia broke me. I ended up with an advisor who had a reputation for being unethical but no one would actually tell me straight,they just gave vague warnings....long story short she still has tenure there and I quit academia and was so depressed I couldn't work for a year. She used all my dissertation research to publish and present stuff under her name with her other favored mentees listed as co-authors. My name wasn't listed. Lesson learned. Never again. 🙄
I would have knocked on her door at 3 am. I just want to talk to her you know ☺️
So a bad person won and at least a functionally competent person lost. Badly. Thanks for the morale uplift... not.
@@rightcheer5096 There's no money in academia why would you choose it in the first place? Proff are drunk on power and it just looks like a pyramid scheme
I’ve had something similar happen. A researcher at another university was one of the reviewers of a paper I had submitted to a journal. My article was published but then the reviewer published their own research that derived certain conclusions from my article without attribution. It has pained me to read that so-and-so reached “similar conclusions” to mine as if she had independently arrived at those conclusions through her own research.
That reminds me of where I went. My cohort was all warned to be careful because certain people were known to do stuff like the above, but then no one would tell us who it was. It was only after it happened to a few people that we pieced it together. Thankfully, I got really luck with my advisor and never had those issues.
I think one big thing missing in this list is: journals aren't interested in publishing negative results. If you have a plausible hypothesis, but you test it and disprove it, you won't be able to publish it. Meaning: you don't have anything to show for whatever time & resources you sank into testing that hypothesis, and worse: someone somewhere will get the same idea and sink their own time and resources into testing it not knowing that it has already been tried.
I never understood this either. Reproducibility is integral to the scientific method. When something isn’t reproducible, rather than publish that and see if we can understand why, we just let it go and fade slowly away.
Money vs truth, that's a tough one.
@@jmw1500Is that true?? 😢 I feel so conned. Im doing the third year of my degree, and I've read so many journals to get the current discourse on gambling and how much of an effect the music has on people who view gambling adverts. Now I'm reading that journals are a joke.
I've done my degree and am over £60k in debt and for what end result?
@@jmw1500 I'm 'only' doing a music degree but my research project is considering just how much of an effect the music used in gambling advertisements has on influencing gambling behaviour in adults.
I tried emailing somebody who had over 1500 papers written about addiction (which I've learned from this channel that as much as lending somebody a pen probably means their name ended up on there. Anyway, point is that this person was incredibly dismissive and rude of my work so I never even bothered going back to try and explain myself. I think he was just peeved that a pathetic undergraduate like me has found a research gap.
Got out after 11 years and far, far happier in the private sector. My main three observations:
1) a *lot* of academics treat “normal” (ie less qualified) staff like absolute $h!t and it disgusted me. I hated seeing Dr X or Prof Y talk down or be outright rude to technical or admin staff all the time for no good reason other than their “rank”.
2) Academic committees are a massive waste of time. Everyone wants their say, everyone wants to be right and at the end of it no decisions are made and no one is accountable. The can just gets kicked further down the road
3) not enough funding for even the people that should be funded because their work is of sufficient quality. This means that being good enough doesn’t cut it. The route to advancement is to stab people in the back (or the front)
good for you, what kind of work are you doing?
@@RadioNul data analytics
wish I knew this before experiencing it myself.
p.s. never thought this toxicity could happen to universities around the world.
Thanks for posting, Servicekid.
This gets worse and worse with every passing year.
Politicization is a sign of egos and incompetence. The existence of decision-making committees should be taken as a sign that an institution is broken. Whether it's a school, a business, a government agency, or anything else.
I remember a guy telling me he went into science and academia but was really turned off by the toxic competitiveness and petty jealousy among fellow students. He believed this would get less and less as he went on to the real adult worlds and higher levels. He had a sort of fantasy of the most logical, mature, the most 'scientific' unbiased people would await him in the end. To his horror, he insists, if anything it became far more toxic with more petty career jealousy than ever before. The only difference is that it was more sophisticated, clever, more elaborate.
I also had that same fantasy, the higher you go the more mature, sophisticated & respectful people would be amongst each other. I just dont understand how & why adults can act this way?
@@elijahhernandez906 I think it's because academia's "bubble" (really womb) naturally attracts infantile, selfish people who can't deal with the real world in any capacity.
Well again, we know the connections between Epstein and Morgan Chase. What we also know is that MIDDLE management sent warnings, UPPER management, well, I wonder who got invited to all those parties.
It kind of depends WHERE you are, to say 'academia' is like saying 'marketing'. Its a pretty huge 'industry'. You want to know what people in marketing call members of the public? Did you know market traders LAUGHED at the people freezing during Californian brownouts that THEY caused to inflate prices. I could go on but I suspect you get the idea.
Its also worth pointing out SCIENCE for the most part is no longer 'academia' , its pretty much CORPORATE. Much of the pettiness is due to the fact there are so few funding dollars from public organizations now so they are competing for the same small pool.
This is in industry after industry, anybody that thinks its ONLY academia or WORSE in academia really hasn't seen much of the world.
As a student rep I heard and saw Profs scream at each other and cry because they didn't get what they wanted.
And the problem is, that because these people exist, the normal adults who just wanted to get their work done, instead of having petty fights, stopped properly participating in trying to change the system. It means the worst of the worst are actually the ones on charge. Pure kindergarten.
More than once it was the student reps that kept the meeting from falling apart completley.
@@elijahhernandez906 Money and clout. It's all about money and clout.
Toxic is an understatement. I was once invited to a party at the dean’s residence. I’ve never met such a bunch of preening, venal, incompetent and just plain dumb human beings in my life.
I’ve met trees with more personality than most of them.
I’m from a family of university educated people. Their failings are prodigious, deep, and impossible to ignore.
Yep, people think scientists and academics are beacons of intelligence, but in reality the high school mentality is everywhere
@@SergyMilitaryRankings had higher degrees than you did they?
@@SergyMilitaryRankings a scientist doesn't mean is intelligent in other stuff, can he cook? Talk another language? We should stop giving "prodigies" the honor of being in a pedestal and threat them as equals
@@alventuradelacruz522 Problem is, the moment you treat them as equals, they become vindictive and immature. Best to just let them burn their surroundings to the ground through dumbness.
@@hermano4242 if they burn their surroundings we will also be burned too
I did a PhD in mechanical engineering (at a "top 10 of the world" ranked university) and my experience was nothing but amazing. My advisor was the MOST ego-less person I have ever seen. He would not hesitate to ask a question infront of undergrads saying that he didn't understand something without a flinch. His only goal was to help us and work on things he thought were interesting. He seemed to attract nice people, as half of my colleagues from back then are still among my best friends that I meet regularly. HOWEVER, I worked a lot of PhD students from other groups and oh boi..... there are the stories became true. Horrible narcicisstic bosses who abused them and all kinds a shit. But just to say, there ARE still amazing people in academia...
I agree. There are few golden people here and there.
I have the whole of a bag. Some really good ones and some narcissistic ones. The latter ones trying to get us to p-hack because they didnt like the results and selling it for "scientific rigor".
The exception proves the rule.
@Bob Syerunkle I hope you're not a scientist because your argument makes as much sense as his
@Bob Syerunkle come on man that is so unnecessarily pedantic - this is not a proof, it is an aphorism
I stood my ground and got rid of as a 'troublemaker'. Being shrewd, ruthless, and compliant are the qualities that get rewarded the most
Literally me . I have too much self respect to deal with their shit. I’m one month in and already not vibing.
Get out now. I assume you are younger than me. Get out now. Don't wait until the age of 57, like me, before you muster the courage to get out. Get out now. @@jessicak88
Yep, this!!!!❤❤❤
"Venal" is the word
@@jessicak88i wanted to be an author...until i realized how much subjective bs there was. I went into porn Best decision of my life. I write poetry and childrens books at my leisure now while i lounge around.
I wish universities are more rewarded for data sets, like quality data sets, and an open platform for all academics to open a scientific discussion where they can post their text and visual based analysis to the data set. I prefer this over papers. It shouldnt also matter if the data is similar to others- this is even equally important to promote replicability,Pressure on making papers rather than doing the research itself is ridiculous.
Imagine how much more we could accomplish as a species if we collaborated, instead of competing to be first.
the system changes slowly because it damages the interest of those who are in control
Someone would need to contest the dominance of bibliometric industry and I feel the people in power, who were promoted by the system, just won't do it.
Papers are literally one of the biggest evil of Academia.
The fact that more time is put into evaluating what/when to publish, how to present and format the data to be clear rather than through and thus be quoted and have people consider you more often is absurd.
We are academics, we shouldn't behave like people have the attention span of a 13yo on social media
i love reading a suggestion for a solution.
This is slightly off topic, but I’ve been wanting to rant about this for so long.
My uncle is a philosophy professor at a fairly elite college. You can’t talk to him about anything without him completely belittling you, making presumptions about you being lesser in intelligence or taste or life experience, and he will straight up insult you if you try to argue with him like you don’t know what you’re talking about, even if he’s totally wrong. His wife is an attorney and while they’ve had amazing careers and started from nothing, they are both just so fucking out of touch. They (when I say “they,” I really mean him, since she never questions or pushes back on any ideas he has or decisions he makes) were antinatalists for the longest time and would belittle my parents and my aunt for having children, but I guess they had a midlife crisis when myself, my siblings, my cousins, and their friends’ kids all grew up and they felt left out or something. They adopted a baby a few years ago and I get the impression that they assumed, if these people of lesser importance and intelligence could raise children, it must be easy. Well, the kid is spoiled, doesn’t respect them at all since they have no idea how to discipline him, and they’re misdiagnosing him and over medicalizing his tantrums when it’s literally just a result of their ignorance. My mother singled handedly homeschooled three kids, used food stamps and hand me downs from friends to get by. My aunt raised four kids, one with severe OCD, while she had cancer. But we don’t know how hard it is to raise children because they can’t go jogging anymore, this kid is different from us and so much harder to raise, so the experiences of my parents and my mom’s sister don’t matter. It’s just really annoying and hurt my confidence as a child when I stayed with them for a summer, when everything was about how I don’t know anything and that formed me into a people pleasing, self denying person who wanted approval from my “superiors,” in my teens. I’m 22 and I don’t care anymore but looking back it impacted me more than I realized.
They say they’re feminists, but don’t take any woman seriously unless she doesn’t act or look like the women in their circles and insulted my mother by calling her an ignorant housewife and my aunt for “popping out babies.” They say they’re anti racist, but they fail to see how they’re separating their child, who is African American, from his culture and neglecting things like proper care for his hair texture, since they’re white and don’t even have any black friends. They say they’re socialists, but they’re so far removed from the struggles people have and they didn’t understand why young people were choosing to live with their parents instead of moving out and assume it’s because they’re more conservative, and not because that’s their only option.
I used to be really ambitious and academically inclined and while I still enjoy topics like philosophy I never, ever want to become that far removed from common experiences and up my own ass. It seems miserable to be like that anyway because I’m sure they’re used to being like that because they have to seem competent with their peers and it’s just a personality trait now.
interesting story that I'm sure some can relate to. thanks for sharing
Thanks for sharing your personal experience 👍
Adoption is an absolutely corrupt system designed to take away the children from the poor and victimised (read: people of color and sexually abused teens) - and then place those babies in the greedy hands of those who can "afford" them.
Every adoptee I've seen who's come out of the fog from the sunshine-and-altruism narrative that society pushes has said that its institutionalized human trafficking. Even if they were one of the rare few who genuinely did have irredeemable first parents but somehow loving and perfect adoptive parents - they will say how much the system is designed to reward the rich at the expense of the poor and abused.
*Especially the adoption of babies - which is most adoptions*
And especially the adoption of racialized children by white folks or folks of a different background.
I would argue that the child you see with your uncle isnt "spoiled" - he has already been through several types of trauma that no one around him can ever hope to know. He is *emotionally neglected* and developing patterns of behavior that gives him something - anything- to be happy over.
This is not some white child with rich white bio parents who is doted on and never knows what it is to be denied something.
This is a kid who has had everything of his identity and roots stripped away by colonizers before he could even know the word. He is processing several things he likely wont even know how to describe or express - because no one around him has ever remotely been in that same situation.
Your uncle and your aunt make me incredibly sad and full of rage.
But if you are interested in learning more from real adopted people so that you might be better able to support your cousin later, I would *highly* recommend joining and reading through the facebook group: "Adoption: Facing Realities"
Good story. Hope to never be like that or encounter someone like that. I might just lose my temper and show them how the primitive man overpowers nerds like them 😂
I'm truly sorry you were exposed to this, but frankly, they do not sound normal. Don't let them draw you in and influence your worldview in any way. You have a right to pursue what moves you. Don't use them as examples or cautionary tales for any purpose.
When you do find your path, you are right about one thing: it is crucial to meet good people, and harder to find good people every year. No one can do it alone, or in bad company. That's true of every career. The less these two influence you, the _better._
I quit my Marketing PhD after 6 months because my supervisor started to behave like a startup guru, always trying to get the next bigger collab on-board without having finished any of the current projects. He also delegated most work to lower-ranked staff and cared zero about putting any effort into lectures, prepapration for lectures, grading, and organization of courses. I was his direct assistant and I kid you not, I had double the workload than he had. Every week he wanted 1 or 2 meetings with me out of boredom and so that he seemed "busy". Sometimes, the meeting with me was his ONLY schedule for that day, so he sometimes dragged meetings out for 3 hours. I once felt physically ill after a meeting with him because I couldn't stand up, I couldn't open a window nor refill my glass of water. I am so glad I quit last month and don't have to see that old man ever again!
good for you for respecting yourself and setting boundaries
Your experience sounds like a Nightmare...
Couldn't you just have changed supervisors? Obviously it wasn't a good fit.
Unfortunately though what you described is the problem everywhere with this top/down hierarchy of capitalism. 😶
@@alphaomega1351 in Austria, there aren't that many supervisors in major cities to choose from. I wasn't going to change my city just for another supervisor who might or might not turn out to be better.
Marketing PhD ... lol
Oh my gosh yes. I’ve heard profs at big time schools like the University of Chicago trash talk faculty at public institutions or community colleges not because of a certain prof’s arguments but strictly because of where they work. How horrible!
That's very common.
@@vaska1999yes but meanwhile the worst humans are those who make it to " the top".
Naturally tho their heads are so far up their own asses that they dont realize no one except other trash narcissists actually envy them
They aren’t wrong tho.
I am grateful my Professor hasnt been toxic to me and this is my third year. He is a respectful person.
A PhD student is a pawn for this toxic behaviour.
As I near the end of my PhD I have continually questioned their actions and so many times and been told to stop rocking the boat! Especially if that person has heavy influence and or control over funding allocation. Breeds problems.
Had the luck to meet two researchers (one at a uni and one at a industry research company) who do not compromise on their research and have made names for themselves for doing so. Gives me hope and renewed passion for sticking by my standards!
Thank you for summing up all this turmoil and toxicity beautifully. Previously I wondered if it was just in my head.
@The Philosophy Guy I didn't go to university and only went to college for my certificate. I've studied things as thoroughly as I could, a lot of academics material is hard to scavenge, it's guarded, lol. I've only recently stumbled upon resources used by Universities and Colleges, like pubmed and just recently came upon a really random search that got me into some crazy dark rabbit hole on academia, papers and articles about hiveminds and shutting out and ignoring theology, it reads like a freaking manifesto, I can't believe what I have stumbled upon and am reading this is dark, straight treasonous, hateful attitude, it felt like the word of the Devil coming off the paper, WTF?
I think there's something in the water.
Im an undergrad, I joined a lab researching psychedelics, you have to volunteer your time for a bit, I left after 3 months. So many things wrong. They expect your time, the EGO of the professor in charge was astronomical and then the Grad students walk around with a chip on their shoulder. It sucks cuz the research is something I really cared about. You are researching substances that can bring us together but Academia that is funded by Big Pharma brought that dark energy into it. I'll end with this, I have a tremendous fear how much control big pharma is gonna have on psychedelics in the next decade.
People forget you can SWITCH SCHOOLS. Have a bad experience, switch schools. ANYBODY in college knows some profs suck adn are best avoided, others are not. So many people here painting an entire industry with "I met this guy..". Which makes you wonder what their life will be like in the real world when you have to, gasp, deal with people. My wife stayed in academia, I didn't. Believe me, BOTH worlds have their share of assholes.
@@mikearchibald744 this statement represents ignorance of our society and how people do not understand how centralized everything is and how narratives are controlled. I am not talking about 1 teacher, I am talking about a system that pervade s past 1 school or even country. I love people like you because you make idiots like me seem smart. Big Pharma controls all the research.
My wife is working on her masters and I’ve been disgusted by how she’s been treated. She has two abusive co workers who are protected from HR by management. And management is actively sabotaging my wife’s masters because she turned down doing a phd because she just wants to be done. So there delaying her masters to keep her researching for them longer. And the funny part… those two abusive coworkers are phds but they’re not involved in any research. They’re in their 50s and 60s and are literally doing the manual labor of digging holes and pouring concrete for my wife’s project.
The fact is academia is what you HAVE to go through to get to research. And of course on social media we will hear only the horror stories.
My wife had a similar hard time, her prof bolted halfway through, the other profs didn't like her, therefore didn't like her student. The upshot of that was that my wife learned how to ACTUALLY do science and its very different when you have people picking apart your work, or people 'helping you through'.
My wife just wanted to do research so didn't do a PHD, but thats been a double edged sword because she not only has to work with mostly male managers and co workers, but also is often in charge of PHD's. She worked corporate where unlike academia they don't care quite so much, and in two decades practically invented a drug on her own and took it to stage two clinical trials. Now we moved and she has co workers who have ZERO experience but PHD's and complain that she makes more, despite having decades more experience.
A PHD is almost completely a waste of time unless you want to teach or RUN a lab, and nowadays, those are increasingly hard to do. Mostly academia is meant to weed people OUT. And sadly its very effective at that. But the fact is, its not like there is an ALTERNATIVE. How many people arguing vaccines for example actually went and downloaded a free immunology course and studied it?
heh, what a shitshow..
AHHHHHHHHHH... this is awful. I'm so sorry to hear it, and I am sadly not surprised. Sending her love and well wishes as she navigates what's best for her!
@@mikearchibald744i dont think i could have ever properly understood or memorized enough of it
@@mikearchibald744i wish i could, tho.
I have never experienced this toxic environment in academia until I moved to do my PhD from Colombia to Canada. These first world countries have a no community environment, everything so individualistic, and not so much help to others because no one should know how I going or what I am doing. I got so disappointed of academia in the first world, the motor is money, not community!!! (I am sure not everywhere, but is what I feel)
To the point.
Also Colombian and overseas. I couldn't agree more with you with the issues you identified!
Colombian here. I did my Ph.D in Colombia, and money was not a problem, in fact, the whole process was kind of nice. However, once graduated things are different, the jobs available suck, a lot. If you managed to get out Colombia, don't ever come back or maybe you find yourself as profesora de catedra for 30 years.
@@zray2937 yesss, this is the problem with our country. the jobs available are difficult!!!
It's a side effect of being a first world country. As people get richer and more comfortable they get more paranoid, neurotic and lonely.
I studied music in college. Everybody's default advice in that (useless) major is "get a PhD and teach." Hard pass for me. I wanted to play in an orchestra. Now I'm a computer programmer and have a tremendous degree of flexibility in my life. I don't even have to attend mandatory "sensitivity training" (struggle sessions).
How did you archieve that? Did you take another Degree or studied the subject on your own? Also congrats, that sounds like a great achievement. Ich studiere gerade Geschichte mit Computerlinguistik als kleines Nebenfach und mich fragen auch alle städnig, ob ich vor habe Taxifahrer zu werden :/
@@cyanl.2245 Some of the best programmers I’ve known have been music or art majors. And a lot of math/CS people are musicians.
So you WANT to be toxic but your problem is that you were "forced" to treat others decently, isn't like your problem the exact opposite of the one in the video? Nobody likes to read unsubstantiated neo-fascist drivel.
@@FlyingMonkies325lol did anyone see Wild Strawberries the famous Bergman film lol
@@FlyingMonkies325 i love that movie. It has subtitles and i love those kinds of movies too
Some academics are highly intelligent and world leaders in their fields.
Others are just big kids who never grew up and never left school.
Very relatable. I've recently quit my PhD because my supervisors forgot to supervise me most of the time but also completely scrutinized anything I had done when they did speak with me...
That's the most aggrivating apart of research. You know ahead of time no matter what you they'll ridicule every section of the finished product regardless how good it is.
My Proff literally scribbled a cct on a piece of paper towell - then he gave it to me and said build it, three days later i gave him the completed cct, he was in a foul mood and didn't like the layout, he yelled and threw his coffee cup against the wall - he was world famous 60 yo, I was 19 years old...I left 3 months later, no one could understand why, I went to another Uni and completed my Elec Eng degree - best thing that ever happenned to me tbh.
Well done
Well hopefully it was not a rash decision. You can still be happy with your choice and at the same time being rash.
Everyone can be in a terrible mood and everyone agrees he went too far. But there can always be circumstances that made it happen. It all about if he later regretted it and what the reason behind it was
@@strateeg32 maybe andropause ? - it was not normal.
@@JohnSmith-sj2dk or maybe huge personal circumstances?
From your reaction it indeed seems like a rash decision from you and it was a good choice that you left. You are not suited for studying at a top university
@@strateeg32 Correct, too nice to survive tbh, I graduated top 5% with honors, I love my job, I have worked in cancer tech for over 20 years, have been OS for work many times, and make double the average income - better for me than any academic career.
Always thought HR was to protect students/techs as well. But I’m starting to realize, many academia HR offices only protect the higher ups from the lower downs 😬 thank goodness my department is good
Ignore job descriptions. Consider who is paying the staff.
That's why I never willing visited the shrinks the army provides.
HR has that purpose in industry as well. If you end up working in industry, never forget that. They are there to protect the company.
In my experience HR looks out for HR, or for those who scratch HR's backs.
HR is filed by women. Women don't know how to raise anyone up, so they're always looking to protect daddy/the CEO, in order to keep the money coming in.
Working women are destroying the world.
I don't know why people think like this, it seems so naive. Of course they care only by the company, they are paid by it, we live in capitalism and corporatism, nobody cares about people, wake up.
-Academics are not paid analogically considering the amount of time they are working, and that's bit harsh. At the same time, one had already spent many years of his/her/their life so as to become one, and in the meantime, the payment was also peanuts.
-All academics show toxic behaviours from time to time. As a result, their phd candidates adopt them, and repeat the same mistakes.
-It's a job in which the boundaries between work and home are non-existent
I was in Academia for 15 years. I agree with your statement
@@darklavender4229 Well the only case in which an academic earn a lot of money is when one has established himself/herself on the field, and has like 2-4 phd candidates that work on paid research programs, from which he/she gets a percentage of the money given by each program.
💯 Correct!
I disagree with that, I think its the culture of academia that you 1 are sacrificing everything including being nice to people in order to be "the next einstein" 2 academics are generally low status people who are whether true or by stereotype have 1 no success with opposite sex 2 have bad social skills 3 are not athletic 4 are not good looking 5 are not wealthy or likely to be wealthy, so they cling desperately to any amount and ounce of status they can get via other means. also 3 hyper competitiveness, and the naive idea that if you "win" the arugment that this really means that you've "won" the argument, i.e. being bad faith and using any means to bring down somebody's point of view and refusing to accept somebody as making the correct point, versus not doing that and not attacking if you don't think its a bad idea or trying to defend the idea in your own head before attacking it.
-It's a job in which the boundaries between work and home are non-existent
Oh boy. I can tell you about this.
As someone just about to finish my chemistry PhD in 2 months, i resonate with this video so much, thank you!
I consider myself a classic scholar, searching for the truth, but i had to realise in my phd at a top swiss university that modern (Western) academia couldn't be further from that. It's a toxic cesspit, most people (including many profs) are maximum average skilled, creativity is mostly unrecognised if not even supressed, basically they are only looking for semi-talented scientific laborers. I call it a giant pyramid scheme. Professors earn decent money (as they should), but the rest, especially phds but even postdocs are employed part time, so we are always at the verge of precariousness. And they even rationalise it by saying that we are here for 'learning', which is partly true but mostly bs. I know that most Phd students are completely incapable of individual, creative scientific work, because they hire based on who has free money or quotas mostly, but the few who actually can, are hypercreative and highly skilled intellectuals who conduct their own research and learn by doing. I don't see how it's different from any job where you learn by doing. It's a scam at this point.
Regarding the toxicity, i can only agree! I have very good social skills and although i have made friends, but much much more difficultly even compared to when i was working in a factory!. Academics are toxic because it's an everybody against everybody situation pretty much. There is NO real team work in academia pretty much. At the end of the day, everyone tries to get their little portfolio or 'scientific brand' better and there is nothing really connecting it to others. There is no common goal, product or service that everyone is trying to contribute to. Unlike at a real job or industry, where there are many different positions and levels which don't directly compete, in academia everyone is everyone competitor pretty much, and people have a scarcity mindset: if you get that position, grant etc., i won't get it.
The other big factor is pretty much the constant begging for money. If i have to beg for money in 30-50% of my worktime, i'd rather do it as an entrepreneur and build something with a real influence to the world. Uselessness is also true, i find it pretty much l'art pour l'art that we publish to get grants and get grants to publish. I know and i have seen myself that many products of the industry are bs and useless, but still, at least they are used by businesses or custormers. Here, you create something, a paper which lands in the internet and you are good if 5 people read it in a year.
Finally, the largest scam is probably the publications. I know of NO OTHER FIELD where you create intellectual property and you have to pay for it to get it published, someone (the journal) makes profit off it and you get nothing, zero royalties. At least the research group should get something out of the success of a paper. Scientific journals are obsolete and add zero value to papers except for the graphic design. Even the reviewers, who make the high added value work get usually nothing.
Still, i am very grateful for my supervisors to have had the opportunity to do my phd with them, it has made me grow to a completely new and lightyears better version of myself. Also, i found out what i like and don't, and managed to tunnel my suppressed creativity to business ideas outside academia, so i am ready for the future. Good luck to everyone still struggling! cheers
I never imagined what a struggle it is to get quality work out of the system. I appreciate your effort and this essay.
I feel you I have the misfortune of my data contradicting the establishment and even trying to talk about it feels like slamming my head into concrete. My defense should be...interesting.
@@erikjohnson9075 well, good luck, and never forget that science is about finding the truth, even if it seems like you contradict everyone else. And even if so or you are wrong after all, so be it, science should be about fruitful discussions and competition of ideas not a bunch of dogmas. Cheers 👍🥳
This is a very good summary of all the reasons why I quit academia 15 years ago after my PhD and one year as a PostDoc. During my 4 PhD years in the lab, I earned a "generous" salary of 1060 EUR per month, for approx. 60 hours a week. PhD students are the backbone of almost any lab. The skilled ones are a full adademic workforce at the latest in their 2nd year of the PhD. My professor led a group of 25 people, most of them PhD students, and he told me several times that I'm one of the few whom he trusts blindly regarding design of my experiments as well as manuscript writing. A nice compliment, but I couldn't see any future for me in the academic world, it felt like swimming in a pool of sharks that were all competing for a very limited amount of grants. At 30, I had no savings whatsoever after these years of underpayment, but a burnout. That's how I started applying for jobs in the industry. Where you get overworked as well in many companies. These are all things you just don't know and nobody tells you when you're entering college full of idealism and inspiration. What a rough landing.
I have had a PhD student admit to me that they are not creative and do not want to do research. This person was picked for funding over me because they were female and there are quotas for that in engineering. I'm done. This shit is disgusting and the story we were told about academia was a lie. It's full of idiots.
Could not agree more. I spent 8 years in academic research between a PhD and a Postdoc and I hated the environment and I too felt it was a very toxic environment with these people who think highly of themselves as they are la crème de la crème. Reality, many are sharp in their technical area but often they are socially and emotionally handicaped. Despite my great interest in academic research, I left academia to pursue research in the private sector and frankly 15 years on I never regretted it. The environment is much healthier and people are better behaved, simply because they HAVE to. I know so many great scientists who share this same views and so many quit science all together because of this. It is really the wild west in most of these academic environments.
Very honest, thank you. I’m so burned out on the never enough thing. Not to mention every institution I’ve been at acts like they can’t even pay a basic wage in spite of endowments that are hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m a tenured dept chair about to be laid off because my college is replacing people like me with adjuncts this fall. I’m so depressed and have no idea what I’m going to do with my life. I’m not even 40 yet. I just want to be a hermit and take care of baby animals. The system is fake and higher Ed in the US is a pay to play joke for most students.
You’re not even 40 yet?
You’re in for a rude awakening and age discrimination has you in it’s crosshairs. OTOH, they might be doing you a favor by showing you that there are other paths for you to follow.
@@rokyericksonroks hey,you're right. I quit my professorship and became an executive at another college. Will be my last job in higher Ed before transitioning out since I'm getting pragmatic experience
@@FlyingMonkies325 great points. As to the why of choosing that for myself, I saw so many issues in education growing up and had negative experiences like most of us, but I thought I could do something about it. And for many, I have, on a one to one basis. But the system will never change, and will always run on the kindness of people like me (in the us anyway).
I wanted to make positive structural changes. When I was an early PhD student I learned that policy makers don't read academic work in any serious manner. I also learned about how elite faculty benefit on the misfortune of the poor and exploit them for their own work. One of my favorite profs said it best at an international conference, where he told the group, this organization has been around for over 60 years, and nothing has changed. record scratch moment honestly. Only in retrospect do I realize that academia has a vested interest in not changing anything. And, well, people like me get filtered out. You either become a sociopath and advance, or you leave. And that's if you were ever really allowed in at all.
Really appreciated your videos. Helped me decide a PhD probably isn't for me lol. I'm not very competitive and hate the social games lol. I initially thought this would be more of a problem in a company than academia, but it seems to generally be the opposite. Most companies I've worked with generally don't seem to care if their nerds aren't super social; being reasonably pleasant and getting your work done is enough.
These are my professional experiences exactly. Our company (a global transnational worth bilions) had two recognised career routes, "Technical" and "Leadership". The hierarchy was mirror-imaged, e.g. "Department Head" in the leadership route got the same pay as "Consultant" in the Technical route (every step on the ladder was mirror-imaged). I really enjoyed my time there (I'm now retired). I have an MA from a world-class university and am so glad that my grade wasn't good enough for a doctorate, that would have been for me an eye-opener.
There are many industries where the toxic system ends up driving away the good people and attracting Dark Triad personalities.
I think that has at least as much impact as people /becoming/ toxic.
Academia, police, regulatory agencies, education, corporate offices, et cetera.
I worked at a university in NYC a few years back. The amount of jealousy, meanness, and narcissistic behavior left me stunned. I was gone after 6 months. Not worth the stress.
Sounds like Columbia.
From nyc. Worst ppl i ever met in my life went to columbia and new school
@@betareleasemusicfrom nyc and came here to say this. Two close friends went there, both hands down the worst humans Id ever gotten close to in my life.
"Smart" is not necessarily a good thing. High iq only measures wealth building capacity which in my bookj carries very little value.
I will say the "Nobody remembers the second guy" adage isn't always true. If the first guy rushes to publish mediocre work in a low impact journal, they'll be overshadowed by the more high impact, better quality version of the same work by someone else that comes after. I wish this happened more often because it encourages people to do higher quality work, but it also usually only happens when the second to publish has more money to do that better quality work.
greater money and resources also usually meant that other guy can do it faster, so if the idea wasn't published yet (just presented in meetings, etc.), the first guy has more to lose
Love this! Toxicity in academia is not talked about enough.
- because Capitalism is the new Eastern European 1950's Socialism.
This
Yes and the toxic environment is leaking out into the mainstream, especially the griveances studies scandal
I did my undergrad in biochemistry because I loved science and I loved learning, and now I'm about to enter a Master's programme soon, but the more I learn about academia, the more disheartened I become with the system that we have created for ourselves. Scientists are supposed to be looking for the truth, but it seems we're often incredibly untruthful in this endeavour. My 8 year old self would be completely heartbroken at the state of things.
I know. My school self that dreamt of this place, struggled in academia. Sick of not being allowed to be curious and sick of being controlled.
Depending on science it is hard AF. Look towards an industry based sponser (so u have an avenue if you don't work with academia).
Was lucky enough to be industry sponsored PhD and they (+supervisor) would happily listen to the crap I would spew to direct the project & application.
I've noticed that the "academic ego syndrome" is a lot stronger in private universities.
It’s true. My sociology professor invited another professor from a public university to speak on his Harper’s article. He (the public uni) professor felt insecure due to working at a much smaller and lesser known university. In response, my professor emphasized why he wanted him to talk to me and my peers.
I wish there were more professors like them in PhD programs. Sadly they’re a rare breed as you get higher and I’ve heard too many horror stories among my family. At this point, the only PhD I’ll take is honorary. The burnout and possible lack of credit is not worth it.
"In academia, the politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so low" - - Henry Kissinger
Yeah just fighting for government/private money.
Thank you for this video Andy!
As a current PhD student in (so called) fundamental science, I cannot stand the mismatch between what we're saying and what we're actually doing. We have to say to others that our work would end up revolutionizing a specific industry especially when applying for grant. I found some professors saying like that but not believing that would happen. They're just satisfied with the fact that they have something to do and something to bring money. I'm not saying everybody should be honest all the time, but how could I keep working without a little bit of hope? Research only for research is really toxic, I think.
If we as academics are not honest all the time and others build upon our work, what do you think that does to the rest of society?
This is what has happened in other sectors: ruclips.net/video/_ZcO5k5an20/видео.html
@@sirmclovin9184 Thank you!
If academics are not being honest, then our whole society is doomed. Academics that lie erode the trust normal people have in academia and truth. I mean, ANYONE lying, ever, is a problem, but it's much worse when their honesty is the whole point of them. A dishonest bricklayer can still lay bricks, what use is a dishonest scholar?
I saw some young people turned nasty creatures in academia, and many young people who left for ever and found jobs elsewhere - so much waste when intelligent, creative and curious people leave due to toxic relationships.
If I was a kid now. I would just go to community college.
God, I’ve been out of it for a while and this video is giving me nasty flashbacks and trauma. The whole system is totally f**ked up
Totally agree on every remark and explanation. I did my PhD in the US: 6 1/2 years of my life flushed in the toilet. The decision I regret the most. The only reason I add "PhD" in my signature is because otherwise other people keep wondering what I have been doing in those 7 years.
😂
I remember in grad school talking to other people in the program about what I was working on. I was burned a few times by that, as three of them then turned around and published a paper before I did using the concept or framework I had mentioned. I learned not to talk about a paper I was working on until it was close to publication. I also stopped asking others about what they were working on for fear that I might end up poaching their research before it was published.
I keep seeing people saying stuff about this, does this depend on the field? I just can't imagine how someone would be able "poach" research with the amount of effort required to set up a study and find participants that you see in health/nutrition research.
As a taxonomist, nobody would ever steal my work or my novelties. It is simply too much trouble to repeat another taxonomist's labours while there is still so very much other but similar work to do. Are we unique? It is said that we are oldfashioned. I like to be called scholarly.
@@Way2MuchFlava
Giving up wanting to be a professor and doing my first startup was a revelation. I had more time to do actual side research as CTO of a startup then as PHD student at university. But I can not publish. The gate keeping and toxicity in academia may have to do with it. But it does not matter for the moment.
Consider publishing your discoveries in an open repository, like arXiv or viXra.
As an undergrad (and later graduate) student, I witnessed many examples of toxic academia. I once witnessed how a math professor treated his Phd student like a janitor, and told him to dispose his paper coffee cup. Profs are mostly loathsome jerks. Thank goodness I left academia after I finished my Masters Degree, and bugged out forever!
I learned in my most recent job interview when I applied for a team lead position at a movie theater. If the upper management is built on a foundation of ego, control and financial profits before human being, you can't expect to be anything other than a dog on a leash. She wasn't thrilled by my ability to solve problems and was focused on putting me in a lesser position. The floor staff that initially referred me to the interview to begin with told me I was a great candidate for team lead.
Ego breeds obedience, stress and disaster. Empathy creates unity, success and self actualization.
Hmmm you are correct 💯 but too much empathy can be taken advantage of.Having worked in both Multi Nationals, privately owned companies,and academia I will that only slackers, sociopaths,psychopaths,ego centric,greedy buffoons who have no aptitude to do research rather lie,stab and even murder people to climb the rank.
Ego only proves the incompetence of higher management.
Yes. I'm halfway the last chapter of my dissertation, my 9th year (!), and I've become an anxious, depressed shell of my former self because of the people at my department always working against me at every turn. I don't trust people anymore, and I've distanced myself from academia when it used to be so exciting to me. I am not sure I can overcome this. I still hope, but I feel worse and worse.
I think I've read all the comments, first time I tried such a thing... Second time I subscribed. I'm a retired HS teacher with many years promoting Science and technology to gang infested schools. I crashed into a parallel universe of toxic management that consistently failed to educate the students in their charge. There's something I imagine we have in common. I tried to bare up for my students in spite of everything. Loosing there left a gaping hole in my soul. But the near futile struggle against ignorance seems to make it worth it. I looked into your post because it struck me as ironic that I could have been promoting science??? Science... a field of study that isn't as firmly grounded as I'd imagined. If it was really science, I see your career as producing Science and hope you gain a following on line. It strikes me as crucial that Science is reliable. If imposter science threatens, you are on a tack that can get Science back on course. Good luck.
Some fields of science are still pure but the ones we should be the most sceptical about are those that are funded (directly or indirectly) by large industrial interests that use research as a kind of a marketing tool to manufacture consent. There is so much good science left undone because it would cannibalise the profits of existing products. Unfortunately as a science lover, science jumped the shark for me in 2020.
Gonna defend my phd from Italy & What I faced, wish no one face ever. The toxic lab environment, quarrel regarding instruments in lab, time of using it, author sequence while publishing to namea few! My name was removed from 3 papers & never I was given the first author while the whole work was mine! Hated it hated Italy hated University of Verona!
This is my impression. I've seen friendships destroyed by supposedly insufficient credit given in papers.
How do I send this to my toxic supervisor?
I have a PhD in combinatorial design theory (computer science / math), and I am very thankful that I was first on the waiting list for postdoc funding and as a result, did not receive it and instead got a job as a software engineer writing scientific software. I still study combinatorial design theory in my spare time for fun, but I get paid a lot more and the stress of grant applications, committees, and a million other things is not there.
I have been wondering for a while if it was not the case for my supervisor that she was punished with all the committee assignments she would do all the time. :/ That aside from the obviously disrespectful and gaslighting bs. I also "love" how equipment purchases were more important than staff -we didn't even get a microwave or a kettle in the break room. The institute director would give us that "cream" spiel, and it was quite obnoxious.
I would definately add lack of leadership/management skills and training in point 4 as that can be a source of anxiety for the supervisor and their group. Career progress requires assuming a more managerial role but there is little support for that shift.
Thanks Andy for posting this! All what you said would explain so much about the institution and why academics behave the way they do. I worked in administration for years and unfortunately absorbed all the negative/toxic behaviours from everyone around me as I worked quite closely with students and PIs. I'm long gone from academia but there was some PTSD after I left and I'm still triggered to this day. There is hope/life after graduate school and I don't encourage anyone to stay for long in academia if they can help it - not a healthy work environment...your mental health comes first!
I couldn't agree more. I think you summarised all my thoughts and reasons why I left my seemingly successful academic career. This environment pushes people to become so narcissistic, disconnected and often mean to each other. It's sad because every single person who holds a PhD that I happen to know admits that their mental health has been negatively affected by this environment.
BRAVO! Best video ever. This needs to be said more and more openly. 100 % true. I have experienced all what you have described. I always say that the academia is rotten inside.
This is a morale booster (for someone like me, who went into journalism, then became a lawyer, while regretting not having gone into academia after having been encouraged to do so, until now).
I was considering submitting a comment along the same lines as your comment. The video and people's comments have helped me to re-evaluate the years of regret and "what ifs."
"Competition between clever people just leads to toxic relationships" lol, sigh...
all of these are true.
all of them.
another thing I add: academic values are positive yet the behaviours aren't. this duality creates even more toxicity so that people can cover up their behaviours
WOW. I agree with you, Andrew. I just realized that I used to be more kind to manuscript authors when I was reviewing papers, now I am less encouraging but more bitter and criticizing. I wish I had heard your talk a long time ago...
Also, just a few days ago, I received the review comments for a major grant proposal I submitted last year. Out of four reviewers, the comments from one of the reviewers were really mean and not constructive. In my relatively short academic life (
Andy, I really like how you explain things and how you talk. I can listen to so few people with this much attention and that is a great strength of yours. Also, I appreciate you for being honest about academia and telling people the things nobody really do. Thank youu
This is causing me quite a bit of dismay. Not from wanting to be involved in academia, but rather from the knowledge that these issues cause significant damage to humanities ability to innovate and build technologically. Is there a way to reinvent academia to fix these problems?
Society has to fund research at a much higher level. It all comes down to scarcity.
Thank you for pulling back the veil.
Now I know why some academics I have come across have definitely displayed the Dark Triad.
They have scant regard for 'students' really keen to learn.
There is a never an endpoint - so, so true. It’s just a treadmill of Sisyphean pain
Hey Andy! Love your videos, as a research assistant working for almost a year now after finishing my bachelor's (not even as PhD or a master's student lol), I was so off put by the academic vibe that I was getting. Particularly, that research is a race, and you have to generate as much research as possible. I remember as an undergraduate student thinking research is such an awesome thing (and I really do enjoy it!), but I guess not in this kind of environment.
In the States, we have an expression for what you cover in this video: "Publish or perish."
Well done Andy. 👏There is sufficient feedback here to warrant industry specific PTSD counselling. The psychological effects of being exposed to such toxicity can have long term personal and professional implications . Regrettably the system in Australia is an incubator for toxicity to be the norm.
Thank you for having the courage to speak out publicly about these issues. I think the masses outside of this inner circle of academia often have a very dysfunctionally rosy view of what goes on in academia. They have this extremely naive view, thinking the academic system is perfect or near perfected and can do no wrong and is just this bastion of purity and goodness, and start worshipping it, not realising there is massive ego, toxicity and corruption within it. Please continue to speak on this as this change is extremely needed if we are going to improve academia which will in turn improve human progress.
I don't have PhD, nor am I working for it, but at my one of my previous companies/employers, there were quite a few PhDs who collectively and half-jokingly called themselves "The disillusioned academics" :D
A huge part of the problem is how much of any grant that the university itself gets. The incentive then is to reward whatever behavior gets the most grant money, which is to the detriment of academia itself.
Thank you Andy! Finally I realise it's not just in my head
Its so true, so great to hear this and it confirms my experiences in a career in academia going on 15 years. I went in naively thinking it must be a paradise of intellectual objectivism, and could not have been more wrong. The stories I could tell. Many professors are totally incompetent managers. Professor status grants them self-validation, so they blame every problem as an incompetence of their subordinates. They are experts at gaslighting. Like many of the commenters, I also became clinically depressed, suffered from complex PTSD, and lost years of compensation appropriate for my skill level. Perhaps the worst of all is that all I ever get is cheekyscientist ads in my RUclips feed. Thanks for addressing this topic, it does need to be discussed more openly.
Well I’m not sure how many channels or sites exist out there with this content but I feel confident to say that you are the first to do so in a great way. Thank you for your content. As an aspiring graduate student and maybe someday academic I’m glad to have found your channel.
Could not have said it better myself! A brilliant video. Thank you!
Very True!!! This is happening to many academics. Corporate/Business Model in Australian universities has been destroying academics.
I left academia and joined a corporate setting 😊 I became an Editor at the Nature portfolio and never looked back 😊
13 years in Aussie academia and I couldn't agree more!
Yep. I saw the toxicity before I even tried to do post grad. Did a bunch of volunteer work and was exposed to all the drama and nastiness. My younger brother, his wife and multiple friends from uni all gave up on their PhD because it was just such an awful experience.
And yet, another person I knew at uni who is not scientifically minded at all managed to brute force her way to a PhD. Throwing phony medical documentation at the uni all the time for extensions and special consideration over years. Then falsifying data for the experiment. She was so stubborn and determined to get what she wanted, she finally did, but I've never met anyone so biased, unprofessional and unscientific... and now they have a PhD.
You don't have to be clever to get a PhD, just work hard.
I look back at my decision not to pursue a career in academia after I completed my PhD (geology) nearly 30 years ago, and I have absolutely NO regrets about that decision. By the time I finished my degree program, I had become thoroughly disgusted with toxic departmental, interdepartmental, and systemwide university politics, so I sought options in the energy and mining industries and in consulting, and I never looked back. Although I have not been happy with everything in my post-university career, I know that I am much happier than I would have been if I had chosen academia over industry.
I don’t know about Australia, but in America for several years universities ask “research professors” to pay their entire salary and all research expenses using grant money that they need to get. There are not “tenured” positions. That induces a lot of stress and will likely contribute to unethical work in the near future
This makes me feel much better about being in the nonprofit sector. At least that one is more collaborative and thete it's OK to be humble.
I got bad mouth with academia literally on day 1. On my third year uni my accounting theory professor literally hated my gut that I disqualified from his class despite attending all of his class w/ decent exam answer.
My only crime "asking the wrong question". Never think going back for master, ever.
A secret to surviving in today's academy is to generate multiple streams of independent income. The deans and provost don't know how to handle it when you aren't tied to their every whim. They almost come to respect you.
but then don't you get even more overworked?
if you're both writing papers and working 9-5
@@kanchanchaudhary1973 I didn’t mean work a nine to five. Over the years I made investments in things that produce passive income.
@@kevinvong6912 how else do you get income besides working a job?
part-time working? or something else?
@@kanchanchaudhary1973 Investment! That’s why academics end up poor. They don’t understand money.
@@DivertingTales And with the rampant marxist infestation in academia that won't change any time soon.
2:31 - One of humankind's biggest problems/limiters = Ego.
My graduate advisor and postdoctoral supervisor are the worst.
My graduate advisor got fired and thrown in jail for domestic violence and my postdoctoral supervisor allowed a fellow professor to plagiarize his (postdoctoral supervisor's) grad student's work. Between this fuckers, I was cheated out of 4 publications.
I was a vet under fire and dealt with it. Out of the Army, I encountered kind of stress you describe. It gave me PTSD
@@paulbergen6574 PIs are the REMFs of science :)
I worked for 8 months for UC Berkeley professors in the Blank department. My predecessors lasted all of 6 months each. The Grad students clearly learned from their advisors and bullied the administrators even worse. This was pre-pandemic and pushed me to become an EMT/nursing student instead which I love. Felt very much like “Gone with the Wind” - a grand culture once greatly admired unable to sustain itself further, with its ugliness showing.
When academics actually controlled the academy, circa 1960 or so, most of this was not a problem. All these trends are driven by the professional university administrator class.
Isn't everywhere toxic? In my experience, all work environments have a potential to be toxic.
What really drew me to academia in the first place was the idea of being able to research what I wanted. Unfortunately, I have seen some ugly sides of academia that have turned me off of academia for good.
And when I decided that I was going to industry, I actually felt a really big weight lifted off of my shoulders. That being said, I still would like to publish and mentor students in a way in industry (which both are possible to do), but I don’t want to be doing these entirely within academia. I agree that academia still has its place in science, but the system is definitely broken and favors narcissistic people who will do anything, even degrade fellow scientists, to get ahead.
Office work is more toxic in my opinion. In academia - more flexible time, no-micromanagement, no dealing with "happy" officials etc.
It depends. I’ve done both and the advantage to office work is there are more jobs to try out, and more jobs to move around to. In academia because it’s so scarce, if you end up with the wrong group, you get trapped because Unless you’re a big name, you either put up with it or your career is done. The only thing that’s kept me in academia this long is the time flexibility, but I don’t enjoy teaching this newer group these past few years. They used to be my focus when things were rough at work. Im getting laid off anyway and being replaced with adjuncts this year. Transitioning back to a corporate job is going to be hard
#2: (only being "first" counts) was a major road-block the first time I tried doing a part-time PhD (in astrophysics). My project was to measure the size of SS-433 (a quasar, or at least its accretion disc) using infrared interferometry. I had got the initial observational measurements and data analysis done, with preliminary results that my supervisor thought were so unexpected that I should try to verify the result using data another team had collected at a different observatory (the raw data was open source and apparently hadn't been analyzed).
After wasting months trying unsuccessfully to analyze the other team/observatory results (as far as I could tell they hadn't bothered to run the required calibration readings for SS-433 as it wasn't their main target on those observing sessions) I was then told by supervisor that another team had just published the size of SS-433 at a different observation wavelength. As the published result turned out to be very similar to the results I had obtained, my prospective paper and thesis went from ground-breaking 'first' to a case of 'me too'. And I'd probably have to start a new/additional research project to have an adequately 'new knowledge' thesis. As I had a few health and work issues also affecting my part-time PhD candidature at that time I decided to just throw in the towel ;(
I'm now in the process of applying to do a PhD in a different field (having just completed a masters in Financial Planning). My theory is that doing a PhD part-time in financial planning will be a lot less stressful than the one I tried doing in astrophysics (the subject matter is certainly a lot less intellectually demanding, and the experimental data will be via a survey form rather than all-nighters gathering raw data from a remotely-controlled telescope array).
what is your profession, sir?
@@istanbulmuskisi5705 My full-time job is an IT/QA position for a multinational company. I tend to do a lot of degrees 'on the side' part-time for 'fun' that have absolutely nothing to do with my full-time job ;)
I started out doing my undergraduate BAppSc degree in applied chemistry (after I dropped out of a Chemical Engineering degree) and worked as an experimental scientist and computer systems administrator in a minerals processing R&D company for about fifteen years. While in that role I did a GradDipAppSc in Industrial Math&Computing and a GradDipAppChem (it was supposed to be a MChemTech degree, but my supervisor left the uni and moved interstate and I was retrenched and lost access to the lab I'd been doing my research project at, so I took the 'early exit' option of using the coursework I'd completed to get the GradDipAppChem).
After being retrenched from the experimental scientist job I changed careers to a 'real job' in a private marketing company in an IT/QA role and have been there for almost a quarter century now (The private company was taken over by a large multinational company, but I still do basically the same role as I've been doing for two decades). I've done a part-time MAstronomy degree 'for fun' while working full time in IT, and after that I tried doing a part-time PhD in astrophysics (which was fun, but it turned out too hard to devote enough time to it part-time).
I've recently done a Diploma in Financial Planning so I could get registered as a Financial Advisor, and I just completed a Masters in Financial Planning. I'm trying to start a financial planning business as a sole trader part-time (as I still have a full-time job) - with a view to continue working as a self-employed financial advisor when I 'retire' from full-time employment. As I enjoyed doing the MFinPlan degree I've applied to enrol as a part-time PhD candidate in Financial Planning (not sure if I'll be offered a place yet).
@@ralphmorgan6130 wow
Here's the thing about academia - It can all be like all these horror stories, or it cannot be, sometimes in the same academic unit. I was surrounded by great people when doing my PhD some years back and honestly had a wonderful time. Other people in my same cohort who had different advisors experienced a great many of the toxicity Andy commented on.
If you have good deans/chairs that will stand by you and aren't afraid to push the problem children out, even the tenured ones, it's a pretty great job. I can't imagine exchanging my current situation for going back to industry again. However, weak chairs and deans who let problems roll back onto faculty to deal with among each other... oof. That's where it gets ugly. It really only takes a handful of inflated, fragile ego to create a complete train wreck. And if one of those types ends up a chair or dean, yeah, it can be hell.
I highly value your commitment to enlightening people about the true nature of acedimia. Thanks a lot!
Thanks Andy, very interesting.
As a student, it does feel like the motivation by the university to get my money supercedes any remote interest in
@11:00 sounds exactly like working in big business - yes you achieved a 10% productivity improvement last year, but how are you going to improve productivity another 10% this year? And next year...
Oh, and here is your 1% pay rise (when cpi is 2%+ pa)...
I don't have that much experience, but my 3 years in a fortune 500 company led to job promotions, bonuses and an an increase of about 15% in salary over that period, pushing me above median income. Academia seems so much worse to me now that I'm in a PhD.
@@MegaEpicLlama Academia isn't even balanced like innGames Academia Games academic are a total catastrophe. Don't even adhere to their own principles. Gas lighting and strawmaning plus ad hominem fallacies at the Gamers /Game development students.
Having been in academia on and off over 10 years at the same institution, I was amazed how some of the same staff had stayed but were acting like their lives were at risk. it was horrible to see calm educated gifted folks being reduced. Tho I have to add I spent time working in the NHS and that was similar...awful.
It matters what part of "academia." Teaching lines aren't so cutthroat, if you like teaching, which I do...and I do whatever research I want. It's just bonus points
Inside anyone who becomes 'successful' and gains status and prestige in academia is a vain, vacuous, self-important, inauthentic and egocentric monster.😱😢😭 Same as the sort who succeed in public sector, large corporations or the entertainment industry. 😠🤢
I hope you aren't right, but it seem that our society admires looking good over being good. The ten second attention span doesn't have the patience to find quality. That's why I tried to set my own standards and reward my own attainments. It also why I'm poor, but proud at age 68. What counts in my mind is that I lived a full life that made a difference. I'm still kicking and hopeful and making a difference while my synthetic peers are passing and not been missed.
This is really the shocking reality that is kept behind the seen of most academic institutions and it needs root depth solutions. Thank you for such responsible disclosure
So true!!! Beautifully said! Different countries, completely same experience! Keep up the great job! Well done!
@@hanam6432 because the cabal designed this for a reason to create divisions and animosity.
It is so helpful to hear you talking. I started research in an institute and department that lost all their senior researchers at the time that I entered. Our head of research is into millions of things- and for sure not showing anything to anybody there (what is understandable till a certain degree). So I never had anybody who I could ask or take an example, nobody telling us about our job profile/career or goals to archieve. So it just runs by itself or better said by now a lot of junior and researchers that became experience over the last years. But still no orientation ánd clearness about generell research questions, developing own goals and combining it with my work- because there us NO time for that. We are just trying to get grants that the research department can survive. I feel already more responsible for strategic planning, because if not, I don't see any sense of everyday working. I also got burned-out for one year and now coming back and observing exactly that things that you said...in academic and scientific work is not like producing a table or painting, it is anyway kind of alienated. But then if you can't find moments to be present in what you are doing, because there is always the next and the better, then it gets even worse.
I'm happy that you deliver this contentn so honestly and I really apreciate your way of being(as I can see it trhough this videos ;)) It gave me hope and also hold at some times. And it gave me answers to general questions, that I had and that I could never asked anybody. So thanks for all your contribution to that topic.
The biggest thing about life that everyone I know refuses to believe is success is almost totally luck based. There are minimal competency standards at many points to meet, but people are fundamentally bad at judging merits.