What’s Happening in Israel and Why with Nathan Thrall - Factually! - 233
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- Опубликовано: 31 окт 2023
- The October 7th attack by Hamas and Israel's subsequent response have left the world in shock. To better understand the context behind this moment, Adam is joined by Nathan Thrall, a Jerusalem-based journalist, former Director of the Arab-Israeli Project at the International Crisis Group, and one of the leading experts on the conflict in Gaza. Nathan and Adam discuss the history of this conflict, and the dehumanizing impact of war on the everyday people caught up in it. Find Nathan's book at factuallypod.com/books
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You should read books by Isreali Scholar Ilan Pappe.
People that put Israel so high of importance and trying to shut down any discussion of Israel's war crimes are traitors to their countries. They should be exiled as the traitors they are. Israel can take them in.
Please consider a deeper dive into Zionism, its history, its antisemitism parading as safety for Jews, and look into Christian Zionism. More people need to know that there are more Christian Zionists in the the US than there are living Jews and there's a reason for that.
Perhaps this video shouldn't have been sponsored
“Unless we address the injustice of the calm, we are never gonna see an end to this bloodshed.” Powerful words 😢
51:07 for those who want to hear the quote
As a Jewish Israeli man, I want to thank you. It was a hard watch, but it's so important. We all deserve peace, Palestinian and Jews alike. It's hard to find hope for peace right now, but I still cling to it. We have no other choice but freedom and independence for both peoples.
I wish you all safety ❤
Theirs only one people who have their rights and land stripped away and is not the isrealis it's definitely the Palestinians, Free Palestine 🇵🇸
It is also good to catch the subtle realities of worldview. "Palestinian and Jews alike" should be "Palestinians and Isrealis alike". I don't mean to criticize the intent, I know you mean well
yes , love your comment, we all deserve peace. palestinian man.
@@MrGazi15he said he’s Israeli just FYI-doesn’t change the message in his comment!
Hoping that a peaceful two state solution can ultimately be formed so that those who have been suffering such tremendous loss can hopefully find semblance of peace, despite the fact that the majority of those who have lived in Gaza in the past couple of decades will live with major trauma for the rest of their lives. And I also empathize with the Israelis who suffered trauma as a result of Oct 6.
I really appreciate seeing someone who is a Jewish Israeli in the comment section, expressing their wish for a peaceful future for BOTH peoples…that indicates that you know what that will entail, which is land negotiations, but wouldn’t be against it if the result were peace! I know that there are a decent amount of Jewish Israelis that feel the same way, and seem to hate Netanyahu (who in my opinion is a terrorist-I can’t comprehend what makes him any better than Hamas….he had these war plans waiting and ready for the first opportunity he could use as an excuse-and the papers regarding the possible outcomes says it all, as the one he most favored was pushing the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt).
It’s comforting that he is unliked by so many in his own country who recognize that he’s so corrupt.
All of this gives me a bit of hope that peace can be found, despite all of the lives that have been so tragically ended, and the devastation those lost lives have left behind.
I really appreciate Nathan being upfront about never really considering the checkpoint right under his nose until the accident happened. Because let's not kid ourselves - that could be all of us.
Also, just the description of the accident and Abed's desperate search for his son after nearly made me cry. What a nightmare.
It _is_ all of us. We all pass systemic (and worse) injustices, every day, that we just fail to see in our complacency.
This IS all of us ignoring the injustices in our own countries
Everyone would, and does do what is best for all as they can. This crisis is flatly in one leader's lap and were we in those shoes, things would be different by far and away. No science fiction platitudes of not having memory to be any different, this is about humanity of human beings which is innate, thus why everyone wants this to end and it has ended many, many times. The bigger issue is why it keeps firing back up again, US conservatives knee-jerk funding trillions perhaps?
I was so afraid to listen to this because I have been so disappointed with the way Palestinians have been dehumanized and ignored by many in the media. Thank you thank you thank you. I know the insanely oppressive situation presented is true because I have lived it. When he mentioned the bus crash, I was instantly in tears because I knew what the story was going to be, and it was traumatic at the time and until now. Adding to the trauma were the social media posts from Israelis saying things like "don't worry, they're Arabs," and "we need one of these every day," about kindergartners who burned to death a few miles from my home. Adam, I hope you don't get canceled! Now I'm going to share this and look up that book!
It is insane the response from Hollywood actors. Jamie Lee Curtis made a pro Israel remark in a post with an image of kids in the aftermath of a bombing. It was pointed out they were in fact Palestinian children after an Israeli attack. Instead of lamenting the horror inflicted on Palestinian children she deleted the post. It's rather strange, unless all these actors still get their news from televised propaganda.
"Palestinians have been dehumanized in the media"
Oh those pesky dehumanizing media!
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that.
Afraid to listen? That’s wild
@@randomguy1221 there's something called trauma that can put you in a very bad state mentally if you hear about something similar to what you lived through so yes you can be afraid to listen to something if the subject is similar to your trauma.
Great conversation, he even taught me, a British Palestinian, things about the conflict. Gonna buy his book! Thank you Adam for hosting!
Nathan doesn't know what he's talking about. He thinks Arabs are from Judea. Duh, its in the name, Arabs are from Arabia, Jews are from Judea. Why does he lament dead Jihadist children but not innocent Jewish children? So woke, and such misrepresentation.
As a South African born in 1977, Nathan’s description of the segregation gave me flashbacks of the racially motivated apartheid world of my childhood.
And many of Adam’s other conversations often sheds light on the economically motivated apartheid world of my adulthood.
What happens in Gaza has been described by many humanitarian organisations as apartheid.
Nelson Mandela specifically talked about this issue on camera before, he was drawing the parallels before most of the atrocities occurred.
and israel is the one that keep supporting apartheid south africa until the end
basically act as surrogate proxy for usa
@StuntpilootStef it's apartheid because of how secular the beliefs of Palestine nationalist are. Muslims states who are not radically conservative do not want to take in Palestine refugees due to how much they believe in jihad and the threat that poses to their sovereignty. As taking them in provides a base of a attack from their country for groups like hamas opening the door for Isreal to retaliate. Saying Palestinians are not represented by hamas and them sheltering hamas agents among civilian populations speaks for itself. Blaming Israel for the child deaths alone is ridiculous. It falls entirely on the shoulders of hamas and their supporters. They do not keep away children from military positions, etc.
@@unadultratedtrini No it's apartheid because Israel treats Palestinians as second class citizens. It has nothing to do with other countries in the region, this is all on Israel.
A testament to the fact that violent militias aren’t created in a bubble and a reminder that explaining that isn’t the same thing as excusing actions. I wish more people understood that, too few do, and its why we can’t make progress.
“Violent militants” as you call them might not happen in a vacuum, but they do pop all around the world. Hamas, as a terror organization has the same ideology and motivations as groups like ISIS or El-Qaida that don’t target who is close to them but western society in general and Israel specifically. Not to mention Iran that is the one leading Hamas and many other anti-Israeli groups. The same Iran that kills woman for not wearing hijab.
No one in Israel politics tries to oppress Palestinians as an agenda, except maybe the farthest right, but they are trying their best to keep their citizens, Arabs and Jews, safe. If there was an obvious solution for peace, Israel would have done it already.
@@HeavySnorlaxyou do realize that those "farthest right" are the ones currently in charge, right?
I've had arguments with people who are so quick to dismiss Palestinians as terrorists with no thoughts on WHY.
Yea most of those people would fight an oppressor if in that position but nobody would admit that
I've had arguments with people who are so quick to dismiss Palestinians as terrorists with no thoughts on WHY.
Yea most of those people would fight an oppressor if in that position but nobody would admit that
@@HeavySnorlaxno, I'm sorry but that is bullshat. That is the equivalent to saying oh 1800 American government takes care of their black population. They don't want to hurt any of them. It's not an agenda to keep black people enslaved. If they could change then they would...
Or south Africa in 1980s.
Dude I'm not saying all Israelis are evil or bad or oppressors. But the government of Israel is using Israeli defense as an excuse to imprison Palestinians without trial and no charges. To literally enclose 2 million people behind barbed wire and murder machines. And literally do everything this guy just talked about.
He is probably right in that it's hard to see by the average citizen but if doesn't change that it's happening and has been happening for decades now.
Hi, I'm a Pro-Palestinian man who was born and raised in Israel. Out of every talk on the incident that happened in 7.10 this is without a question the best one. Thank you both so much.
I have a few I can show you.
I dont know how to stop hating
"incident." You mean terrorist attack.
@@kaoutardaoudi2338Start by loving the victims on both sides. Oppose the conflict. Pray or hope or wish for new and better laws, and new and better politicians.
@@kaoutardaoudi2338learn from others. You are deserving of love. Start with yourself. Love yourself. You deserve that much. Learn to extend that love to others as they deserve it as well. Most of all, with hate, question it. Question why you believe in that hatred. Question how that hatred got there. Be patient with yourself, be kind.
Nathan's description of the wall, the accident and one father's struggle just to find out if his child was alive, brought me to tear
Thanks for sharing this Adam. Its good to know that some Israelis such as Nathan Thrall understand the deep injustice that the Palestinians experience every single day and is prepared to try to tell that story. It may be hard for Israelis to hear this story at the moment but they will eventually have to recon with it otherwise the violence will continue indefinitely...
I think its mostly the fact that they feel like the attack on them did not get any level of sympathy. People from the outside dont help people in Israel to understand that its not an attack on the home they love but the atrocities that are done by their governments.
Many places i know for a fact would not support the conflict are doing so only because they feel that its not a discussion on how to stop violence but an attack on the nation it self.
Im sorry for the rant, i have a severe lack of understanding in writing and the like
Wikipedia identifies Nathan Thrall as American, not Israeli.
Also -- I wonder -- what happened with Jews who were in the West Bank and Gaza back in 1948?
There is a LOT that he is leaving out.
@@guyarmon9410well put
@@guyarmon9410
"they feel like the attack on them did not get any level of sympathy"
If that's true it's probably due to israeli propaganda - and all the atrocities carried out by their gov't for generations
Do you support Hamas swearing to never honor any ceasefire? It's in their charter.
Thanks for this interview. I visited Hebron in 2010 and saw exactly what Nathan describes with the segregated queues, roads, Jewish settlements and of course the wall. Over time I began questioning my own recollection of what I felt and saw because the situation is almost never described by anyone in the media.
I haven't finished watching, but I wanted to leave a comment expressing appreciation for not shying away from this very difficult situation. its awful and hard to see happening.
and so many people don’t want to have the conversation *or* they don’t really understand at all and it’s been hard to learn anything like this
It's not really a difficult situation though. Israel doesn't HAVE to brutally occupy and oppress the people of Palestine. They could have had a single secular democracy for 70 years, had they decided to do so.
@@lennyowens5422pretty much
@@lennyowens5422they did decide to... The Arab nations and many Arab people around them didn't want them to. (The leaders, not all the people, but the leaders incited violence against Jews in the area.)
What this has led to is people who are picking on one side or the other and obscuring the actual history to do so. It's sad and hard to watch, yet I've had to watch it my whole life...
Yeah it's awful that Hamas broke the ceasefire AGAIN and killed Jewish women and children, I'm glad we agree.
For years I personally felt the Isreali settling policy was wrong, but as a German citizen (with German ancestors) I have a historic duty to "support Israel", and therefore feel I am not allowed to critizise them. But everytime I hear about how the Israeli Government demotes Arabs as second class citizens and the ghettoisation of a (huge) minirity I think it is darkly ironic, historically speaking.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's a bit of a stupid stance. If anything, you should sound your criticism, I mean, your support for us can't be unconditional no matter what happens and whatever we do. If anything, you should call us out if you think we are repeating the patterns that your country has undergone the previous century, or are you fine with letting the abused become the abuser..
Just be mindful of how you structure your criticism, I guess.
It doesn't help anyone to have you walking on eggshells around us because of the holocaust. Real friend call out their dear ones when they see them slipping into toxic patterns that make them a danger to themselves and/or others.
There's a lot of people here who are also very critical and opposed to everything you mentioned and much more
It's asinine to think because someone else fucked up you have to pay for it.
It's like if I went around slapping ppl and someone totally unrelated got punched in the face for it and people called that fair and justice. That person lives in the same country as me but so what?
With all due respect I think you and Germans as whole are being morally and emotionally blackmailed to give blind support to Israel regardless of what they are doing
The blind support for Israel will not do anything other than fueling the antisemitism even further by giving the Israeli Government's action the kosher seal which will eventually will make Judaism itself accountable for Israel in the Palestinian advocates prospective
Israelis are adults and shouldn't hide away behind Judaism to escape accountability
German stance in ridiculous, and it's very common among people there. they feel it is a religious duty to support Israel (even if they are not religious but they do it religiously) it's like the moment you question anything Israel does is the most unforgivable sin.
Jews are not Israel. Israel is a political colonial project that uses Jews and Judaism as a cover for its ideology.
You need to separate the Xionists from the Persecuted Jewish people. Xionists were already fascists in the 1920s killing Palestinians and displacing them. By the time the Holocaust came around, they had already killed thousands and grew in power. They began using the Haganah Terrorist organization to commit black ops, against Jews in various Arab countries, in an effort to drum up fear of rising anti-semitism and incite a migratory exodus. A big scandal that came out of that was "The Levant Affair". So when the Holocaust happened, it was like a gift, bc this alone would serve their purpose for a Mass Exodus. They even worked with the German Nazis & Anti-Semites to bring in jews to Israel, and even sabotaged survivors going to other safe countries. They needed a majority in Israel to outnumber the Palestinians.
But this response to help Holocaust survivors was slow. In fact, the horrific thing about the Xionist initial response to the Holocaust was that for awhile the Xionists sat on their laurels, they didn't act as quickly, and even sabotaged the rescue of a prominent Rabbi and rejected the applications of Romani Jews. They wanted a specific type of Jew for citizenship and Romanis were considered inferior. There's a famous quote by David Ben Gurion (not his real name, bc he's a European Jew but wanted to present as a Middle Eastern Jew with levantian roots in the region) who was the 1st Prime Minister and he said "If they offered to ship all the Jewish children to Britain or half of them to Israel, I would only rescue the half". The goal was a nation state at any cost, and usually that cost were their own people. Xionists tokenize and exploit Judaism & Semitism for political gain.
I make it a point to separate the Holocaust survivors from the Xionist Jews. These are 2 completely opposite groups. I think the best way to see it is to look at how the Republicans despise their working class voters and just see them as a means to an end. They'll defend them, even work towards policies to cater to them, but make no mistake that this effort is only exercised in the greater pursuit of their own agendas. And this is the way you need to see Xionist Israelis. Not as a true faith-based Jewish people, but as a political entity that seeks control and expansion for their "racially superior" Chosen People. They genuinely believe themselves to be better than other races, and that's why they treat brown & black Jews as second class citizens. Look up the history of the rise of Zionism to fully understand.
I appreciate that in a moment when you had the opportunity to "Ruin Everything" as you've built your brand on doing, you instead presented a very thoughtful and sensitive speaker. While the ideas and stories were difficult for me, I did not feel at any point that the views presented were unfair or that facts were unsubstantiated. Thank you, Mr. Conover, for a rational response to this immense tragedy.
The views presented were very skewed, and some of the facts were miss represented, some even false and some were mean spirited speculations.
I felt very uncomfortable when something as horrid as the 07.10 happened, and the only thing said was about justification for those actions. Not once is it mentioned why there are all of those security measures from Palestinians, except for some oppression conspiracy, or the real reason that Israel has all of the land, or even one of the many negotiations for peace from Israel, including displacing all of the Israelis who lived in the Gaza Strip until 2005.
All of those are just some of what was left out of the conversation. But the most important thing that was never said is that if the Palestinians would stop attacking Israel tomorrow and organizations like Hamas will disband, peace will follow and Palestinians will be interested into Israeli society. If Israel will drop it’s weapons and disband the IDF, Israel will be gone in a heartbeat, every Jew in it will die, and Jews all around the world will have no were guarantied to be safe from antisemitism.
@HeavySnorlax They're not saying "the IDF should put down their defenses". They're saying that they should stop oppressing, bombing and murdering civilians. What Hamas did was horrific, despicable and in no way a justified act, but it's important to separate the entire populace of Palestine and Hamas.
Also, the idea that Palestinians are incompatible to live in peace with Israelis is exactly the kind of rhetoric that was used during apartheid in South Africa against black South Africans and against Afro-Americans during the Civil Rights Movement in the US.
@@HeavySnorlaxyou might need to think of Hamas similar to MAGA, not all Americans are MAGA, they only hold high positions and one that one time
@@lillebror1567
Israel for years tried to not go to war with Hamas since they care about civilians. If they didn’t care about the non-Hamas Palestinians they could have just carpet-bombed the whole Gaza Strip for years. Israel gave two weeks notice before attacking Gaza, warning civilians to evacuate before it’s too late, but Hamas is holding them there as human shields. And we are sorry for those civilians but we still have our citizens captive in Gaza. Israel can’t abandon their people just because Hamas is using Palestinians as shields, it’s actually making it more justified to destroy Hamas that are also hurting the Palestinians.
Also, the idea that Palestinians are not compatible for peace with Israel is by the definition of Palestinians. Palestinians are not an ethnic group, they are Arabs who specifically oppose the existence of the state of Israel and wish it was a fully Arab state, so it’s their description that say they would not accept peace.
Arabs, as an ethnic group absolutely can be part of a peaceful Israel, and many are. Many Arab states and Arab people in them are peaceful with Israel, and there are many Arab Israelis that lives in Israel the same way as any other citizen. The most popular person in Israel right now is Yosef Hadad, an Arab Israeli that was a commander in the IDF over Jewish soldiers. Arabs are Judges, politicians and anything that they want in Israel.
Let the Palestinians be free from Hamas, then there might start be a direction for peace.
Palestinians are absolutely an ethnic group. Arab is a kind of meta-ethnicity, but the reason we have to pan-Arab state after decades is because the various regions have diverse cultures and interests. To say Palestinians are not an ethnicity is like saying there are no Ashkenazi, only Jews.
The presence of "exemplar minorities" in Israel shows that some individuals can achieve acceptance, but at the cost of the general minority. That man is beloved because he represents a "good Arab" whose existence assures conscience-pricked Israelis that they only dislike "bad" Palestinians, and that if only the other Palestinians weren't "bad" then there would be no inequality. So go tell the Palestinians Israeli citizens in Jisr-az-Zarqa, who have been zoned out of resources and room to build homes and whose only empty property was awarded by the state to a luxury developer, that Israel supports them in their ambitions to be "judges, politicians, and anything they want." There are many legal ways to take away a people's future, and Israel practices this science.
Adam, Thank you for this interview. Nathan, as an American woman of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, a student of history, and having Israeli and Palestinian colleagues, I too, am beside myself with dread and despair. In the past, when other Jewish friends would ask me, why haven’t I visited Israel, I would reply, “I just don’t feel it.” There will be no winners. 😢
"AsAJew" with symbold from another faith system in profile picture. Interestint that people hace freedom to follow multiple religions at the same time and choose which one to emphasize depending on the context.
@@danielheckel2755 you certainly didn’t understand the subtle distinction. I wrote of my family’s lineage. In fact my parents in their later years belonged to a Unitarian congregation. As for my own personal spiritual path, that too is universal, and not defined by any one religion. As at the core of all religions, is unity consciousness.
I’m glad there aren’t too many comments trying to censor people under threat of being labeled antisemitic. This is a great interview with someone who has great experience.
I really hope to find more discussions like these.
Thank you Adam, this is a great interview. So much of the Israeli rhetoric just ignores the realities of Palestinian life. To have a Jewish mouthpiece talk about the injustices that occur on a daily basis even in a time of relative peace is extremely important to understand the context of what's going on right now. I really want to get my hands on this book, especially since so many people have tried to blacklist it. It sounds heartbreaking and extremely powerful, and it sounds like a good introduction into understanding the real politics of the area.
Wait…people have been blacklisting this book? Who?
@@MetalSonicReject didn't you hear what they said at the end? During his book tour, some of the campuses told him that he couldn't speak and they called his book anti-Semitic.
@@MetalSonicReject The Israeli government lobby groups that work in various countries. It's unfortunate how free speech is under threat
Extremely interesting conversation. When dehumanization has been happening for so long it's difficult to arrive to a solution.
Bring down the wall. Stop behaving like animals.
Help each other with quality of life.
Its not rocket science.
@@shaterproofblosmHere's the problem though. As much as that sounds great, Hamas just proved they will take advantage of any weaknesses in security.
So removing the walls will help the innocent, it will also lead to bloodshed for Israelies. And the Israeli government will always consider Israeli casualties first.
You speak of animals, so I'll use this anaology. It's kind of like leaving your door open on your chicken coop.
Most of the animals in the forest won't cause any problem but the few wolves that can get in will be devastating.
So no, it isn't rocket science, bc if it was that be easier. Rocket science is physics and logic; there will always be a clear and right answer.
What we're dealing with here is history, ideology, and emotion; which is much more complex and unpredictable to determine solutions.
@@shaterproofblosmit is when you are trying to speak logic to people who think there is a sky mage that’s telling them to do this and that lol.
They fired first. With the aid of multiple Arab countries. During a holiday.
It’s not as one sided as it’s being made out to be.
Islam has built-in hatred for the Jews it's in one of the first surahs in the Quran. When you have a culture built on the hate of Jews that has nothing to do with a two-state solution or anything that. The people of Gaza elected and the Israelis allowed them to run their business. All along this was they're going to destroy Jews
Adam, your beginning monologue underscores the best practice for navigating the world. If we don't know enough about something to tell someone else about it using actual facts, we shouldn't speak about it. Instead, we should be of support to those experiencing these horrors first hand, make space for them to tell their stories and share their stories in their own words with as many people as we can. Resist the urge to give your opinion and amplify the voices of those experiencing these traumas and any other traumas that need to be exposed and shared with the world.
Seriously, I wish more people paused, did some research and let experts have he mic when this part of the conflict started
I originally thought that I didn’t have time to listen to this in one sitting but here I am at the end wishing it was longer. It’s so informative to hear this perspective. Great job!
Reflecting on the psyches of both peoples is something I’ve been missing from the impulsive reactions we’ve witnessed since Oct 7th. This is the most thoughtful and powerful conversation I’ve seen about the situation and it’s deeply appreciated from those of us with close ties and pain to what’s happening. I will for sure be reading Nathan’s book.
Adam thank you for this interview. Nathan is a thoughtful, compassionate and sensitive man.
Please also interview Miko Peled who is son of the former Israeli General Matti Peled who was hero of 1948, 1956 and especially 1967 Israel-Arab wars.
Miko’s maternal grandfather was one of the signatories of the creation of modern state of Israel.
Miko and before that his mother and father were/are strong proponents of Palestinian people’s rights.
General Matti Peled even was shunned by fellow comrades who fought with him in all those wars.
Miko is a truly wonderful man who deeply cares for Israel and Palestine citizens.
That was some really sad stories ,not being able to find your child after a bus crash just because isreal says you have been born with the wrong colored card.
Then to watch your child growing up being harassed by soldiers and then to see him react to those injustices and then not being able to hug him because the soldiers may see it as a threat.
More people need to hear these stories. All Palestinians are not Hamas. They are people that deserve human decency and the right to live normally.
Free Palestine!! 🇵🇸
So simplistic.
I have nothing to do with the middle east or these religions but did it really not even occur to Adam/author that soldiers would hassle teens BECAUSE other teens had attacked them before? that those teens may have attacked solders because they were hassled and so on?
There is this thing called "collective responsibility". This is how the world works. If you elect a terrorist government like in Gaza, or in Russia, or just do nothing about it, your people will suffer the consequences. This is not fair, of course. And I wish things were different. But it is what it is. In Russia, there are many great people suffering because of the meaningless war, because of their inhumane goverment. I am sure same goes for Gaza people. There was plenty of time for action from the regular people, from the west, to shut down terrorist regimes, to evacuate innocent people. But nobody did anything meaningful. Now the consequences came.
If you really cared about people, you would shout "free innocent people", not "free palestine". But no, you too care only about your ideology
@@LENZ5369 so because a prior group of teens gave the soldiers trouble all future group of teens now deserve harassment?
@@0125AR so because a prior group of soldiers gave the teens harassment all future group of soldiers now deserve trouble?
There is no easy solutions and I certainly don't have one but it's pretty easy to see that simple, short term, reactionary ways of thinking are a big part of why cycles of mistrust, hate and violence; keep turning.
Rather than seeing BOTH the teens AND soldiers as just humans; each with hopes, fears and a sense of justification for their feelings/actions -you (and the author) empathized with the Palestinian teens and (ironically but not unexpedctedly) dehumanized the soldiers.
@@Eugen1344your logic actually goes both ways here, a great deal of the people murdered by Hamas on October 7th were Israeli peace activists who actively opposed and condemned the Israeli oppression of Palestinians.
I just want to throw this out there: after having been to and fought in war against a determined, radicalized, hateful enemy, I've realized the way to end war is to radically love your enemy, regardless of what it costs you, and regardless of what they may have done, regardless of what they swear they will do to you. Radical love is the answer to war.
Looking forward to reading Nathan’s book. All around a very informative conversation. Thank you both for handling this conversation in a such a respectful manner.
The stories of the violent calm are what need to be told. I found this interview enlightening and educational.
Thank you for the interesting take and perspective, there are some things I'd like to add to improve the context here:
First, Gaza strip is a section of land, within it, there's Gaza city, which was home to about a 1/4 of the population in the strip, about 600k people (numbers from before the war, since a lot of homes were destroyed and a lot of people evacuated, so it's hard to know how many people are there now), the war is happening throughout the strip, not only in the city named Gaza.
There are extremist settlers named Hill Teens (not a name of an organization, just a term used to refer to them) who attack Palestinians, take over land, damage property (especially olive trees), and it's really rare that the Israeli authorities do something about these atrocities, but when Palestinians respond, it's shown as unprovoked acts of hostility.
About the dehumanization, it's important to know how it is done: the government of Israel is de-contextualizing events, basically, it shows the Palestinian reaction without mentioning actions done by the government or the Hill Teens, I remember a few years back I read about a system to protect tanks that was successfully used in Gaza, and I'm like, "What is a tank doing in Gaza during a cease-fire?", a lot of others wouldn't realize that there are a lot of other similar attacks and threats that go unreported.
The government gains a lot from the public living in fear, them being able to provide (a false sense of) security, like the character of Bill Gates says in the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley: "You know how you survive? You make people need you. You survive because you make them need what you have. And then they have no where else to go."
As an Irish American, we have a stake in this conflict. Ireland and Palestine have so much in common. This is an Irish American issue now. That won't change. Nathan may be an expert, but could we please understand that it's a bit like asking a British "expert" to opine on the Irish conflict with the English.
The sad fact is when you kill someones family you have an enemy for life. This is generations of that and feeding their hate all those years. Feels like its boiling down to a "you or me" situation.
Well. Not necessarily. But it's incredibly difficult not to get into that mindset.
It's been a "us or them" situation since the Arab league tried to finish Hitler's work on the day of Israel's founding.
The Jews are more than willing to have peace.
In Gaza you have Hamas, who literally state that their sole reason for existing is to destroy Israel.
In Judea and Samaria, you have Abbas, a holocaust denier and a dictator who's only in power because Israel kills off whoever he claims are hamas operatives(Because Hamas has a 60% approval over there, which is why Abbas is on the 15th year of his 4 year term as PA president).
If we won't have a partner for a long term peace, we're perfectly happy to have a partner for a short term war.
It's a terrible blood feud on mass scale.
Plenty of countries hate each other intensely yet don't go to war. Ireland and the UK come to mind recently, but the UK and France also hace beef, as well as Japan and Korea, Chile and Argentina, Argentina and Brazil, Bolivia and Chile...so many examples come to mind.
@@mgerry7468 I knew a sophist would come. Do you see a probability pf the Troubles coming back?
This was a powerful and touching discussion. Thank you for posting it.
My family moved to a west bank settlement in 2005 and the separation we had from our neighboring Palestinians was exactly like Nathan described.
I’m sorry, but if you live in a West Bank settlement those Palestinians aren’t your neighbors, they are the settler-colonial subjects whose land you are stealing. I hope you’ve done the right thing and moved out of the settlement.
@@Ianms You feeling guilty for your own group's crimes that you project them into Israel?
So when your family illegally occupied the land of your neighbors in defiance of international law, and all morality, you felt separated from the people you were invading?
Awww....
modern day colonialism is wild
@@lennyowens5422So you are angry that they admit that it was as oppresive as you where told? Have you considred that this kind of testemoni is inccerdibly important to actully show how fucked up it is?
Have you considred that they moved to that area when he was just a kid and still looked at it and went ”hey this is wrong!” despite probly being bombarded with pro isreal propaganda? or should we mesure you as well for your parents belifes
The fact that you can consider moving because of the unhealthy mentalities says so much. You have somewhere to go if you so choose. Why would you ever choose to move somewhere that creates a situation where others are going to be pushed out of their homes, abused, denied basic rights, etc. for your group to get to establish a centralized community? I carry so much guilt as a European American for all that we have done to the first Nations people, when will we stop? WE ARE ALL DESERVING OF RIGHTS. WE ALL DESERVE TO BE THOUGHT OF AS PEOPLE.
I don't know what your family went through or their role in those days but you shouldn't feel guilty for something that happened +50 years ago. Unless you're a nazi today it's not your fault. Guilt is not helping anyone.
Words cannot express how relieved I am that you made a deep dive on this topic. I'm a long time follower of yours and have been feeling completely lost in this situation. I feel confident that I'll be much better informed in a little over an hour. Thank you so much for doing this.
As an Israeli, I think I’m gonna pass this one.
@@thj9760I really wish you would choose to be a critical thinker before you decide to blindly follow a government but that is your choice
@@thj9760 Nathan Thrall is a jewish author that lives in Jerusalem. He himself says how worried he is raising his children there. I don’t think turning away from learning of what the Israeli government is doing in the name of Jewish people, in the name of you and yours, is wise.
@@thj9760 that's a weird way to say you don't care about people.
@@ishathakorNo, he just doesn't want to be subjected to such a biased version of history. Even someone strongly opposed to Netanyahu can easily see through this biased attempt to paint Israel in the most negative light possible.
I expect more from this channel. This discussion shows Adam's clear bias considering he never presses the interviewee to counter his narrative.
Incredible interview. This is the kind of conversation we need around the Israel-Palestine conflict. We are all human.
I just got a copy of Nathan's book on audible. Thank you for having him on and bringing so much to light.
The criticality of this conversation cannot be overstated. Thank you for this.
Thank you for making this, seriously. I hope you can get some Palestinian voices to appear on videos like this in the future, as well. They are sorely needed in this media climate.
Exactly what I was thinking and what’s missing. Where are the Palestinian voices? Why are they rarely able to speak on behalf of their own experiences and attest to their own damn history?
@@leiladarragh4357Probably afraid to put their faces out front like that. Especially with the kind of climate inside of the US today. Look what's happening to the Squad for speaking up and speaking out.
This was very educational for a topic that I have been hesitant to research personally due to it's sheer depth
I recommend Haymarket or Verso books’ currently free ebooks about the topic. Relatively easy to read (subject matter aside) and much more informative
I am a second generation American coming from a Jewish family that came to the US to escape the Holocaust. What I have seen over the last decades is that Israel is a terrorist nation creating their own enemies, who are also becoming terrorists in their own right. And it's Israel's own atrocities creating these enemies. Through their constantly expanding occupation, their anti-Islam actions, their decades of civilian murders. I have been friends with people who, under Ariel Sharon's rule, were captured, beaten, and sexually assaulted by the Israeli military just for passing through the country. Friends who were part of an innocent acting troupe, but happened to be Egyptian Muslim, and that automatically made them suspect by Sharon's people.
Hamas are NOT good people by any stretch of the imagination, their actions are not justified. But they are understandable. Israel's actions are neither.
None of what you described has ever happened, and Israel is the greatest country in the history of the universe. And I'm an ancient alien who traveled across the multiverse, so I would know.
There. I too can write stuff on the internet without any proof or explanation.
@@user-ed1yd9lc8y you don't even have a real screenname. and you're trying to attack firsthand accounts? Good for you.
It's absolutely disgusting that America is supporting Israel in this genocide
It’s not surprising, America is almost always on the wrong side of history when dealing with foreign conflicts.
This might be the most valuable, insightful, and honest piece I've seen on the conflict and the current situation yet, before or after Oct 7th. I hope everyone sees something with this much open-minded humanity that genuinely discusses the issue with a concern for all innocent humanity on both sides. We need a LOT more coverage like this.
Thank you Adam, for bringing the plight of our Palestinian brothers and sisters to light. May Allah bless you!
Truly an important conversation, What kind of world indeed have we created when we/young israelis are laughing at the death of arab kids. We cannot allow this poison to glorify a useless conflict. We got real problems to solve and yet the world is investing billions to extend this useless conflict
That was most enlightening. It’s a very delicate subject to discuss with so many nuances and discussions like this one are needed to get a proper view of the hole picture! Thank you!
This is a ruin everything episode. Palestinians are easy to demonize, but you did a good job of humanizing them. I think it's important to spread the information about what is really going on.
"Palestinians are easy to demonize"? What?
What the f***. "Easy to dehumanize"? Yikes
I’m just happy that there is a vast resource base to explain what’s actually going on and to residents of Gaza risking their lives to say things as it is.
Thank you SO MUCH to both Adam and Nathan!!! I’m also really happy you reminded me you have a $5 tier on Patreon because I’m now in a position to restart contributing.
You are truly one of the most important channels / interviewers interviews on the Internet and I’m grateful to you for your work 😊❤️😊
Great conversation, great guest, great host. Thank you for this important work, Adam.
Another masterclass from Adam Conover.
This was very informative and paid with compassion. My question is why there is no discussion of Zionism, and the history of how/why Israel came to be? I hope you will considering pursuing a deeper dive into that history, as well as into Christian Zionism (which I learned about from Jewish people), as it really blew my mind and informs a lot of what we are seeing now.
I second this. It's such a huge part of the discussion 😔
Yes. And despite the propaganda about it being somehow anti-Semitic to mention, it is actually more anti-Semitic to pretend Jewish people and Zionists are one and the same, as they're of course completely distinct. Zionism is a specific ideology and plenty of Jews aren't Zionists. The most sickening lie we're told is that somehow every Jewish person who lives outside Israel should feel scared whenever there's any criticism of Zionism or Israel. They're not even that closely linked. But they are being brought closer by relentless propaganda from the white supremacist western powers who back Israel. It's no coincidence that the Jewish founders of Israel were white European Jews not the ones from the actual region, or even black Jews. If the dominant view of Israel was one of a nonwhite nation they'd never be allowed to get away with the stuff they've done over the last 60 years.
Well noted.
whew glad i’m not the only viewer feeling this way.
Thanks Adam. Sharing widely. This is why Black folks feel the empathy.
And Indigenous people in the Americas and Caribbean
The indigenous people of Isreal are Jews not the people made up by the Roman's. When they dig in Israel, they find Hebrew from over 2000 years ago. Please do your own research on the topic. Don't just get history from Nathan's story.
50:50
“Let’s get a ceasefire, let’s restore calm… this ‘calm’ which is a deeply violent system.. unless we address the injustice of the calm, we are never going to see an end to this bloodshed.”
The atrocities that Palestinians suffered under Israeli occupation and continue to suffer today in Gaza is hard to grasp as an outsider. I appreciate this podcast very much, I hope it opens more eyes to the suffering that these people have endured since 1948.
I hate this quote of Nathan's because it implies that rectifying injustice will end bloodshed. I agree that bloodshed will not end until injustice also ends; but Hamas killing Israelis could still go on regardless of the reconciliation between Israel and Palestinians. You see Adam's confusion at 1:07:15 where he says Hamas is really only causing net suffering to both Israelis and Palestinians alike; and Nathan Thrall's only response is that Hamas is willing to sacrifice the Gaza for its goals. I think Adam is confused because Hamas clearly sees little value in Palestinian lives or any kind of peace and reconciliation. So are Hamas incredibly stupid or are their real goals something else? I wished Adam would have asked that. Nathan has great knowledge of Palestinian suffering, but he definitely has no insight into Hamas.
Great Conversation Adam! Thank you for this.
“Characters” is a weird term for actual human beings.
At last- so very unvarnished, so very necessary - and so very appreciated. Thanks, Adam, Nathan.
This was the quickest hour and fifteen minutes of my week. Easily one of the best things Ive ever seen from Adam
Damn it Adam, You have been lying to us all these years. YOU SIR! do not ruin everything. Thank you for introducing me to Adam Thrall.
I think it’s interesting how this conversation went into so much depth about the sheer amount of violence and terrorism that the Palestinians having been living under the direction of Israel and STILL managed to paint out Hamas as the problem. The two-sides approach to this conversation is irresponsible. Palestinian people have deserved freedom from apartheid and genocide prior to Oct. 7. People responding in self-defense to murder and displacement are not evil. The occupying forces they have to respond to are the evil ones.
There is no “both sides” to this conflict. The Palestinian people have been murdered and had their land stolen by settler-colonialists. There’s no such thing as an innocent settler-colonialist either as shown by the way the Israeli settlers have been cheering for the mass murder and death of Palestinians as highlighted in this very interview.
Ordered Nathan’s book while watching. Thank you both for the work you do.
As a brit i am shocked to hear uk police shut down a book launch. I consider this country at the top of free speech, to hear that is disgusting.
one of your best episodes, so glad to hear people with a platform not bleating for the extermination of Palestinians
I find it extremely difficult to believe that Israelis are insulated from the the daily reality of Israel's threats.
This! PLUS the claim that somehow Israel is governmentally responsible for Gaza and The West Bank is a BS claim with no factual basis in reality. Hamas IS the elected government of Gaza and the PLO is in charge of The West Bank. So, WTF is he babbling about? Sorry, but this guy is as credible as a three-dollar bill.
I found the conversation a bit painful to watch. Seems like it's set up to draw in a liberal audience and slightly improve their outlook or something. Seems very white washed as a result. It's not like israel does these things secretively. It's heavy state propaganda bragging about their military occupation and willful ignorance from the people. Definitely not insulated.
51:41 “The Calm” reminds me of Avengers: Age of Ultron “You’re mistaking peace for calm.”
Thank you. It's so hard to find a voice of reason on this subject.
It’s nuanced in the long run but simple in the short term. What bugs me is how the Jewish people can go through the holocaust then inflict the same hatred treatment to another group. I can imagine a lot of ptsd that was never dealt with being part of the cause and if you combine that an extreme survival instinct your mind can get pretty cloudy. Now the Israeli people after passing down their ptsd to their kids their kids spread it to others because they don’t know that it’s not normal to dehumanize your neighbors.
Even before the second world war and beginning mostly at the turn of the 20th century, as anti semitism was becoming more normalized in Europe the early leaders in the Zionist movement were pretty entrenched in extreme right-wing and fascist ideology. When the British who controlled Mandatory Palestine pre WW2 began allowing greater numbers of Jew's to emigrate to Palestine began forming underground paramilitary groups with the explicit purpose of accumulating as much territory as possible and indeed began attacking Arab villages and displacing them.
A movement within Palestine at this time known as The Revisionist Party headed by a guy called Eliyahu Ben Horin formed with the goals of territory maximization and Jewish expansionism. They also were right wing nationalists and intended to become a legitimate standing army for Israel before the partition plan described in UN resolution 181 in 1948.The paramilitary fighters within this movement would eventually become known as Ingun which is and was considered a terrorist organization due to their tactics of using explosives to achieve their goals, most notably with the bombing of The King David Hotel in 1946.
After the UN resolution and the official formation of the modern state of Israel, the official state military began absorbing many of the paramilitary factions within the state including, you guessed it, 10's of thousands of Ingun from privates to commanders becoming a significant portion of the IDF. After the War for Palestine ended in Arab defeat, the newly formed IDF began enacting what's known as Plan Dalet which is generally considered a plan for the systematic expulsion of Arabs from as much of Israel as possible and which resulted in what's known as the Nakba in which some 700,000 arabs were forced from their homes and denied the right to return or were killed to make way for more Jewish settlers.
the same as the Holocaust? Oh, that's some serious *nuance*? Jeez.
@@CurtOntheRadioyou would have supported hitler during WW2 and it shows
@@arialnazar4777 why do you say I’d support hitler? I support anyone who is being victimized. In this situation both sides just need to stop and go to a table and just start talking this out. I would never support hitler.
@@CurtOntheRadio never same as the holocaust. Just saying people who experience genocide then perpetuate the same actions have some issues that need to be worked out.
Heartbreaking story about the bus crash. Wonderful and enlightening conversation.
This is the most informative and heart-wrenching book promo I've heard in a long time
This was a very fascinating and enlightening conversation. I will have to read his book and also urge everyone to do even more research into the conflict.
This only touched the surface and didn't go into the complications of what would possibly happen with a proposed laxing of militaristic control over the regions.
It does often feel like things are so broken that peace and humanity aren't even plausible as either side, as backing down a bit will be met as a show of weakness and met with aggression, instead of de-escalation.
I'm sure plantation owners would have said the same in response to liberation of their Black slaves. It is always more complicated to let someone out of a cage than keep them inside. It is no more complicated than Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The only thing that makes it seem "complicated" is the length of time Israeli colonization has oppressed Palestinians. Somehow the complication of freedom must be considered with the same moral weight as the comfort of colonizers. The added homework is simply used to find some justification to not do what is right.
I have a simple hack empires hate. Which ever side does NOT have fighter jets and does NOT have clean water is the side that is in the right. No extra research required. Works on any conflict. Yep. Even that one. Yep that one too.
How can he said that Israelis are afraid of the Gazans refugees to come back and demand these Israeli towns?! The entire strip of Gaza was free of Israeli presence for 18 years and the towns that Hamas terrorists attacked were in control of Israel since 1948 when the UN gave this land to Israel
very interesting conversation, learned few things I never heard about, Thank you
Is there a reason that England hasn't stepped up and apologized for this mess they caused? Wasn't it the British Empire's fault this has happened and shouldn't they be the ones responsible for fixing it?
Thank you for having a nuanced discussion about this situation.
Very good interview, very informative and paints the story exactly how it is. Thank you for doing this.
Except it isn't, because it's filled with false information, better known as disinformation, and completely misrepresents the situation and its history.
Thanks for doing this.
Thank you for this interview, Adam 💙
Wonderful conversation. I’ll definitely be picking up the book.
Worth mentioning that Israel controls access to the following going into the west bank & gaza strip - Fuel (and by extension power generation,) Clean water access, border crossing in and out (Through political pressure, this includes barring access into Egypt,) internet access, construction materials, medical supplies, and food access.
Israel controls food, water, electricity, migration, aid access (Medical or otherwise,) and the ability to construct shelter in these locations. There is a reason they Gaza and the west bank are called open air concentration camps / prisons. Calling what is going on between the regions a war is extremely disingenuous at best, calling it a controlled extermination of historic inhabitants would be correct.
Additional things to note - Israel is a mandatory conscription country, everyone citizen serves 3 years in the armed forces barring medical or specific religious exemptions.
The groups of imported western settlers, while not directly tied to the IDF are not inhibited by them in the slightest. They are effectively a 2'ndary armed occupational group squatting in homes stolen at gunpoint that are legally made unaccountable for their actions by Israel's courts.
What an amazing interview. It gave me perspectives from both sides of the conflict. What sad times we are witnessing.
It's wild how the comments are filled with appreciation for the humanization of humans. I cannot fathom how someone can see a palestinian as less than themselves other than being completely detatched from the violence
Riveting interview. Thank you both for doing this and seeking to educate us on this stuff. I'll be buying the book
Thank you for this conversation. What I don’t understand though is, why does Nathan Thrall, someone who understands that Palestine has been occupied by Israel, still choose to participate in this injustice by living there at the expense of Palestinians. Does it not add to the perpetual pain of the Palestinian people? Isn’t being a part of this corrupt and unjust system built on the bloodshed of Palestinians immoral?
Thank you so much for this Adam and Nathan.
I want to compliment you for having voices like this on to educate you. Many of the people in your former orbit have opted to rigidly adhere to centrist neutrality, when the difficult truth is that reality and objectivity have a bias. Sometimes it’s only slight, so a conflict is truly complex, but other times it is extreme, although it still may allow for marginal complexity. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is definitely the latter. Denying this fact, which liberal Zionists attempt to, requires a basic attitude of anti-native bigotry and (ironically) illiberalism. The first part stems from the need to racist-ly conflate Palestinians with the homogenous blob of the Arab league during the Nakba, so that the dispossession of their homes as well as denial to return 75 years later can be justified on the grounds of jus ad bellum. It’s wrong on so many levels; King Abdullah I of Jordan screwed over Palestinians the first chance he got! The second one cuts to the heart of Zionism: it is fundamentally illiberal (in the sense of denying a just world order based on protecting the individual subject) to believe that Jews can only be safe in an ethno-religious state because antisemitism is human nature. Those facts taken together demonstrate why approaching it from the point of irreducible complexity is a mistake. I think your guest did a solid job of avoiding that approach, which is commendable.
The guest talks about losing support from previous groups that liked his book and I find myself once again remembering Malcom X muse on the White liberal. I encourage anyone who has not heard Malcom X talk about White liberals to look up his speech on that and also what he said about colonialism and Israel specifically. 40 years later nothing has changed from what he said then.
I'd be careful about that, Malcolm X was notoriously antisemetic.
@@Windona give a specific example? I can only think of one and it is true of this massacre currently taking place.
@@justcommenting4981 For one, before his falling out with the Nation of Islam he often referred to their beliefs. He also made the false claim about Jews owning 90% of the world's wealth. He also lumped all Jews as white (tell that to Beta Israel and Mizrahi Jews). He moderated his opinions when leaving the NoI, but that doesn't change the fact he peddled in a lot of anti-Jewish rhetoric and conspiracy.
@@Windona can you give a quote and source?
This was excellent. Thank you!
I felt sane for the first time in a while. Thank you for this honest and open take on a truly f'd up mess.
An absolutely Brilliant episode. No notes. Thank you Adam
That was gripping, thank you so much Adam
I loved this conversation, I learned so much, as well as gaining an even deeper perspective than I had before watching on the historical facts of this situation. That being said, I’ve noticed a trend in the discourse i’d like to see less of, and that is the framing “Israel-Palestine conflict.” This is a settler-colonial occupation, beginning in 1948 and expanded in ‘67. Israel occupied and annexed Palestinian land. Call it a conflict if you must since there are groups of people in conflict with one another, but do not do so without acknowledging the historical fact that this “conflict” is borne of an illegal occupation. Also, the bombing of Gaza by Israel is not conflict, it is collective punishment and the onset of a genocide if one follows current Israeli government rhetoric.
Exactly very well said! 👍
None of that is factually correct though. The UK was put in charge of Palestine in 1920, after they freed them from Ottoman rule. Palestine was never its own country. Then, they (legally) gave a big chunk of it to Israel after WWII. Under no meaning of the word can Israel be considered a colony, because it is not under the control of any other country. The bottom line is none of this is simple and you can't just decide you don't like the nuance of it so you want to describe it with reductionist terms instead.
@@bossrudeboy In the same way that the United States was put in charge of the Louisiana Purchase after France sold it, perhaps? In both cases, a colonial power transferred legal control over a territory it *claimed* but did not *occupy,* to another colonial group, without the advice or consent of the local population, and then the new rulers began to brutally repress the native population. Arguing about legality is completely orthogonal to the moral dimension, here -- it was an unconscionable colonial genocide in the case of American Indians, and it's shaping up to be an unconscionable colonial genocide in the case of Palestinians now.
It actually started a bit before 1948. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 as the British took control of Palestine as the Ottoman Empire was collapsing. And even THAT exacerbated some issues that dated to before that time.
Maybe the best place to look is the start of the Zionist movement in the 19th century. But that's the result of the centuries of mistreatment of European Jews. Maybe look at things like the Spanish Inquisition for examples of that, or the expulsion of arab Jews under Mohammad as Islam began, or go back to the Roman Diaspora...
That's the problem, as Adam and Nathan brought up: the conflict now is a culmination of history, some of it tangentially related (only a handful of very religious types on either side care about the treatment of Jewish Arabs in the Koran, for instance). There's a lot that lead up to this, and it's complicated. And there's a lot of bad blood. Thankfully, MOST of it is more recent, within the last century, so... hopefully it can be moved past. And there are factions on "both sides" (an oversimplifcation) who want people in both the Palestinian and the Israeli populations to be radicalized and to have that bad blood.
And of course you also have the meddling of states like the US, who really like being able to sell munitions to Israel. Boeing makes about $333M/year just in Israel. Violence is good business.
well put @thrashdog9485
It's difficult to comprehend(as an American) a conflict like this because it's so far away, with differing perspectives coming from both sides, Hamas, aside though that's def a factor, negatively. I just am worried that any form of genocide would be supported by anyone.
It's not difficult. Isreal was founded in 1940s by killing and relocating people. Gaza was a tent city of people forced from their homes.
Just look at a map of Israel and it's not hard to figure out.
To be fair, this is actually the case for almost all conflicts. Even Russia Ukraine can be viewed through this lens if you strip away our cultural and historical biases against the Russians. The invasion is 100% wrong. But if you engage with both sides and start talking history it gets real complicated real fast. But the one simple thing is aggression and annexation is wrong. War crimes are wrong. As a US backed client state Israel should be roundly condemned for answering war crimes with war crimes, and for their ongoing occupation and apartheid.
well said@@IshtarNike
@@IshtarNike What... war crimes? Investigation is guaranteed to happen after the war but bombing schools, as grim as it is, does not constute as a war crime. As soon as militant take residence in these buildings or under them it's a military target. And don't forget the fact that Hamas does not want civilians to leave, they want more deaths, not less. This is the unfortunate effect of the war which Israel couldn't avoid and Hamas deliberately wanted.
Now if you mean actions prior to the invasion then maybe you got a topic to discuss. Not a war crime per se in absence of actual war but needs investigation regardless. War crime is a very specific thing. Even Putin is questionably a war criminal due to the ongoing conflict making investigation impossible. He's internationally wanted for a different sorts of crime, also done during the war.
@@IshtarNikeHow is it apartheid when they have Arab members of council?
Why isn’t any other surrounding nation getting judged for literally being theocratic apartheids? They kill and imprison Jews in their country anytime Israel beats them in a conflict.
The worst Israel has done is limit the amount of Palestinians in their country because it represents a *real* security risk when Hamas hides among civilians.
I appreciate you not shying away from this important discussion.
Fantastic episode. Thank you for making this
Thank you for the insightful interview
I’m pleasantly surprised to hear this more nuanced take on your show. Honestly I’ve been so inundated with the media painting the October 7th attack as an unprompted inexcusable horror show that justifies any repercussions for all Palestinians. It’s exhausting to turn to media sources across the narrow US political spectrum and hear the same take without any of the background and context for why this happened, and how the Israeli response is even more horrifying than their past actions. So I came into this video with respect for Adam to be a generally left leaning and nuanced person, but was still expecting to hear more justification for Palestinian genocide as seems to be escalating now.
I was also in the situation of knowing very little about Israel and Palestine and the ongoing conflict and apartheid, so this video was extremely illuminating to me and gives me a much stronger baseline to continue learning from. I knew l was missing a lot of context because there was a gap in my knowledge between what I’d learned in history classes about the establishment of Israel through to the news I read today. But I didn’t imagine that less than a century was the oppression and killing of so many Palestinians and the creation of an apartheid state to this extreme. It’s mind boggling to think how little of this came up in school, in news stories, etc. I’d heard that Israel specializes in propaganda and digital cybersecurity, but I didn’t realize to what extent it controlled the narrative around this oppression of Palestinians. It’s also that there’s such a disconnect between the perception of Israel as a nation and Israelis and Jewish people that leads to confusion and a lot of bigotry against both jews and Palestinians. Perhaps the separation is less in Israel than in America, but here there is the added complication of right wing narratives pushing antisemetism and the conspiracy theory that Jews control the world, which muddies the water so much when Israel portrays a one sided narrative of what’s happening in their territory. Hell, it’s even hard to talk about without wondering if I’m getting some misleading ideas or believing antisemitic conspiracies, but what’s happening to Palestinians is undeniable and undeniably horrible so I’m trying to wade through the misinfo and bias. Again, this video may only be the perspective of one man, and from what I can tell, a nuanced one from a Israeli Jewish citizen that sympathizes with Palestinians, but still only one perspective and a seemingly rare one at that. I mean just the fact that he’s being ignored by so many media organizations over what was a much less controversial book before this latest attack is telling.
It’s interesting that the subject of this attack changing people’s perspectives came up. For one reason or another, I seem to have swung the exact opposite way than most other people. I came from a perspective of seeing Israel as a good thing, an ancestral homeland established after the horrors of the holocaust, and the conflicts within and around Israel as attacks on the very existence of it, and the seemingly necessary military might, technology, and border security that would come from such a situation. I’d started hearing more about Palestinian struggles lately, learning about the apartheid and genocide, and have started, and it brought into question the entire nature of the narrative I’d heard of. And then with the hamas attack and the swift and disproportional response by the Israel government and military has really made me question what’s going on. This interview has helped shed light on the decades of oppression and violence of Palestinians that has led up to this point and made me extremely sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian civilians trying to survive in this territory. The point he made about how people were growing sympathetic to Palestinians prior to this attack and have now flipped to moral outrage and justification of Israel’s violence in response is shocking. Yes, the attack was a horrible act of cruelty and violence, but in what world is it surprising to see a radical group within a subjugated population do anything they can to fight back?
And just like, have I just been watching too many movies about oppressive governments and the rebellions rising up against them? Like is it that crazy that the Hamas had the goal of upending the “stalemate” of Israel forcing Palestinians into smaller and smaller and more restrictive living arrangements while all the guerrilla fighters can do in response is launch relatively impotent rockets against a state of the art impenetrable dome?the world didn’t seem interested in the plight of Palestinians, and there was no indications that Israel had any goals in mind aside from either completely exiling Palestinians from the land, murdering all of them, or subjecting them to a terrible living standard as an underclass of workers without freedom. I don’t know what they could have done to get the attention of the world and force some change, even if the response has still been worse than expected. I honestly don’t know if Hamas expected this level of global pushback, this level of violence from Israel, this level of disdain for Palestinians. I mean I imagine no one goes into a violent attack and kidnapping expecting their people’s struggle to be heard and sympathized with, but to get universal condemnation and everyone overlooking or outright supporting the bombing and invasion happening to Palestinian civilians in gaza was probably not on their outcomes list. Perhaps this is one of those issues we as a global society see are wrong in retrospect when it will be too late to do anything. I was too young to understand the nuances of the Iraq war when it was happening, but it’s easy now to denounce it as a failed, expensive, pointless effort to get retribution for an attack that was in some ways itself a response to what the US government and USSR did in that area decades prior. Maybe that’s the best outcome Palestinians can reasonably hope for - a failed, expensive invasion that eventually leads to Israel withdrawing from Gaza and/or other occupied parts of Palestine and leaving the released and surviving Palestinians to build back their land and government. Or we’ll witness, consciously ignore, and eventually forget a complete genocide of Palestinians and then Israel will propagandize itself into a peaceful and free state just like every proper settler colonial power has done. Fuck. What can I even do? Im not even sure I can post anything as “spicy” as this on less anonymous social media without getting pushback or accused of antisemitism. At least I have a more comprehensive understanding of the wider situation now, and can keep learning. But is me having opinions “on the right side of history” do anything to help? Or does it just make me less guilty for watching?
Alright if you’ve read this far, uhh, why? I mostly wrote this for myself to gather my thoughts on the video and the conflict and to reflect on how I used to see this whole thing before. And to reread later in case I actually want to edit this down into something comprehensible elsewhere.
Well, I read all the way down because I was hoping to see someone who wasn't informed on the topic or had a biased opinion change their minds when confronted with a reasenable discussion and facts. Thank you! You brightened my day.
The October 7th attack *was* an inexcusable horror show. (I don’t think you intended to suggest otherwise, but it’s important to emphasize.) That said, I wholly agree the attack did not justify any and all repercussions for all Palestinians.
But yes, maybe you *have* been watching too many “revolutionary”movies, because it *was* crazy for Hamas to upend the “stalemate,” particularly through such brutal and violent means. It’s hard to complain about Israel’s attacks killing civilians without first acknowledging the cruelty of the Hamas attacks-also against civilians-prompting those very attacks from Israel.
Obviously, this is a complicated issue. It’s been complicated for a long, long time. The oppression of Palestinians is unacceptable. The attack by Hamas was unacceptable. Both of those can be (and are, in fact) true.
Understanding does not simply grow naturally during relative peace. It requires deliberate intent. It requires conscious cultivation. But understanding almost *never* grows in response to violence like the attack by Hamas. That attack only helped those who support the oppression to feel more justified in doing so-and gave those who oppose the oppression a reason to second-guess themselves.
Please don’t misunderstand me here. I agree we have to address the injustice in the calm, as it was described in the video. But the brutal violence of Hamas will only exacerbate the harm to Palestinians-and further delay any efforts to oppose the oppression they face.
@@Teletheus, thank you for this response. To be clear, I was saying that the Oct 7th attack was being portrayed as inexcusable *and* a justification for the bombings and invasion by Israeli forces that followed. Because yes, the Hamas attacks were inexcusable and barbaric in a vacuum, and it seems even in context, they’ve turned out to be pretty useless for them and set their and Palestinians’ goals back.
Now I do need to read to see if there were peaceful negotiations or strategies that Palestinians and sympathetic Israelis were pursuing for a fair and safe outcome for both people, and whether the Hamas attack undermined these efforts. I hadn’t followed news of the region closely enough to encounter anything like this, but I do expect there are people and organizations with plans that could lead to a prolonged ceasefire and maybe even liberty and land for Palestinians.
I guess I just take issue with the way you make an equivalency between the cruelty of Hamas and Israel and their military. Yes, the horrors they commit can and are both bad, but I would have the expectation that a democratic government with more power and a oppressive majority over Palestinians would do all they can to choose the moral high ground and achieve goals with the least amount of violence possible. And it’s no excuse, but the Hamas are at best a rebellious despotic government and at worst a terrorist organization who I wouldn’t expect to be morally compared to a democratic government. I don’t know, do most Palestinians feel represented by Hamas? Do most Israelis feel represented by the Israeli government? I don’t have an issue with the media painting Hamas and their acts as bad or worse; I have an issue with this being used as an excuse by a government to commit acts just as bad or arguably worse if you consider the historical and ongoing treatment of Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank.
Please correct me if I’m wrong though, because again I need to read more about the history of this conflict, but so far it does seem fairly one sided.
And that said, I also don’t think violence is the best or even 10th best solution for this situation. I would like to learn about other proposed solutions and previous attempts, but both in theory and so far in practice, the Hamas attack seems to have led to nothing positive and a lot of suffering and death. It’s definitely given a lot of people a justification for a retributive response and hasn’t led to much sympathy for Palestinians, much less Hamas (which, fair enough…). Violence definitely makes any kind of nonviolent solution much more difficult.
The only thing I want to ask is whether you think violence is ever justified. I think at a certain point, and I’m not saying this point is reached with this conflict, violence can be justified and can be the only solution that works. I don’t think everything can be solved with voting or negotiation, and there’s definitely historical contexts where defense or attack is a reasonable and perhaps only way to protect people. What I need to learn is whether that point has been reached with this conflict, or whether it’s not yet at the brink where alternatives exist.
@@Anya-Primeone thing I learned from the entire situation is that hamas does not give a fuck about Palestineians life as they themselves released videos of them executing any gazan who trys to use the civilian extraction corridor
The problem began decades ago. Israel has many times offered peace and has also returned land but the Arabs do not WANT peace. "The 1967 Arab League summit was held on August 29 in Khartoum as the fourth Arab League Summit in the aftermath of the Arab defeat by Israel in the Six-Day War, and is famous for its Khartoum Resolution known as "The Three No's"; No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel."
this was a very educational and interesting interview! I know what I'll be reading soon - thank you
This is all so unimaginably horrible. Thanks for the interview, even if it was mostly depressing
At a time where so many people are a cowardly in the face of genocide, thank you for telling the truth about what's happening.
Thank you for being brave enough to have this conversation. We all should be able to have empathy and see this from all perspectives.
I'm watching this on Dec 15, 2023 and noting many of the things Nathan is saying are not realistic as of Oct 26, 2023 are or have become reality. Its terrifying, its chilling, its heartbreaking, we still do not know where the bottom is.