Found Leanne one of those workplace bullies who are horrible to others but go straight to the boss if anything is said to her. Agree the Seer was a mistake.
Not really. She seems the type to fiercely fight for others who have been aggrieved or treated unfairly as well as herself, though she maybe prone to getting the wrong end of the stick.
I found Leanne annoying quite a lot of the time, but she also seemed to be quite a complicated personality to me. Probably someone looked worse on the show than she is in everyday life.
I felt the same way. She could accuse anyone else of being a traitor but everyone was just supposed to buy that she was faithful because she'd pounce on them if they dared to look at her funny. She got to the end by bullying others into being too scared to accuse her
I love that The Traitors is 3 episodes a week for four weeks rather than 1 episode a week for 12 weeks. It gives it a sense of urgency and it also keeps me engaged despite my long term memory issues (I'm a child of the MTV generation)
What happened to Jack was ridiculously unfair. In series 1, Claudia says the ONLY way you can exit the game is if you’re banished or murdered and he wasn’t (this is definitely partly why he decided to step off the train btw). So yes, they have to bring him back I think.
The game changes. You cant expect the same rules to apply as 2 years ago. If it were played the exact same then it would become predictable for the contestants and stale for the viewers much quicker. Jack knew it was a risk and took it
There are so many loose ends on the Traitors format that need to be tied up. Especially when it comes to recruiting, ultimatum and obviously the seer. I play a lot of boardgames with these kinds of traitor mechanics (Battlestar Galactica, Secret Hitler,...) and the game doesn't end if all traitors are voted out half way, as paranoia takes over. We played a game where we forgot to assign our "traitors" and it still gave massive amounts of conflict. At this moment it feels like the first 8 episodes don't matter, just avoid being voted out, because the producers have a ratio they want in their final episodes. Even if you vote out traitor after traitor in the first episodes, you still have to deal with 1 or 2 traitors by the end.
And that’s also the problem with the seer, if you play secret hitler you know if 2 players disagree (either I had no choice, yes you did, or check party) you freeze out both players. The moment Frankie and charlotte disagreed the other 3 should have just frozen them out and told them up front “your both being evicted”
There needs to be a penalty for Faithfuls in the final next year - if they vote out other Faithfuls, the prize pot goes down. Stops them getting greedy.
I thought the seer would have worked better if it wasnt face to face. Ie. They could select one person and find out if they were a traitor or faithful but no one else including the person selected knows who the seer chose
@@etherspin I think it makes the seer less of a poisoned chalice if they do it that way. Plus interesting dynamic if the seer having chosen a faithful tries to bluff to get a traitor to reveal themselves. If they do that and go after a faithful then the traitor knows their cover isnt blown.
Yea that's the perfect way to play it. Introduce it earlier (but not at the start, perhaps, as a much better hidden reward than the shield in an early mission maybe?), let everyone know that there is a seer, and then both the faithful and the traitors have the goal of identifying the seer for different reasons, and the seer has a survival instinct built in to the role.
Only problem with doing the seer too early is that traitors could recruit that same night/next night which makes it a bit pointless. Doesnt really matter who goes out at the start because traitors just get replaced, though I suppose if they find a traitor they can hold on to that information but need to make sure they dont get voted out
They'd have to keep the identity of the Seer a secret as well, otherwise, no one would know if the Seer is actually telling the truth or not about what they found out, and they'd still have a target on their heads. As soon as you're made to stand out from anyone else, you're toast, sooner or later.
Just wanted to say I could listen to you to on this podcast all day. And often do to be honest. Really appreciate the content and hope it runs for a very long time.
I always compare Alan Cumming’s character in Traitors US to Richard O’Briens in The Crystal Maze. He’s the host, the gamesmaster and a character within the world and fiction of the programme. None of the other English language hosts are quite as steeped in the lore of the show as he is. And he is absolutely magnificent at all times.
I think the Seer can still work if it's earlier in the series, so that there's more time for the "your words against mine" dynamic to sink in. Frankie picking Charlotte provided *immediate* tension for that night's roundtable but as soon as Charlotte's gone, all heat died for the viewers. So in hindsight, it's best for us the viewers if Frankie had picked a faithful b/c surely 1 of them would be banished leaving Charlotte in the true final with real tension for us.
The only problem is as Richard said , if its a traitor and a faithful , one of them is lying at least so you just vote them both out , that's the best play. Even if they come back and say they are both faithful , they could both be traitors , so vote them out anyway , in the early part it really doesn't matter who goes, yes you want to vote out traitors , but the odds are harder , so get the numbers down. Its the same if you are traitors and one gets banished ,you should never recruit , because in a numbers game only two people is better than three , an extra person brought in means an extra person who could make a mistake and make your position vulnerable.
@@steve10the thing is Frankie played it poorly IMO. Charlotte went to the others and said that Frankie told her she was a traitor. Had Frankie been a traitor, she would have no reason to reveal that to Charlotte. The power gave Frankie the ability to see what Charlotte was not the other way around. She should've explained that to the others
What was annoying to me was how it was lauded (by Claudia herself, on Uncloaked) as a truly original invention by the amazing producers, even though it's been a basic role in Werewolf from the game's Inception. You'd think the editors would know better.
I agree that the seer basically made the final episode outcome inevitable: you couldn't keep either seer or traitor in, and Alexander had put in extra coins to make Frankie seer so had to be voted out too. But it's a concept that might work if they had the power but no-one else knows. There are a few things about the current Traitors format that I think could be improved; * Make each mission have something in it for the traitors to mildly sabotage - there were a few hints of this in a couple of missions but not all. Maybe introduce a "traitor clue" as one prize option for each mission instead of cash, and if earned, would reveal one true small bit of information about a traitor. Traitors would therefore have an interest in trying to keep it secret, and would have to avoid opening up too much to the others in case the information they give matches. Gives the faithful something solid to go on, whether from the clue, or from the traitors' performance in trying to stop them getting the clue, rather than just witch-hunting people at the round table because they looked at someone in a funny way. * Make banishing a traitor actually mean something: in most of the early episodes, there is almost no benefit in finding a traitor over a faithful - the traitors can just recruit and you are back to the same situation of number of faithful & traitors - in fact it's worse: someone you previously built up trust with is now suddenly untrustworthy. And the recruitment of Harry right at the end was surely too late for a recruitment.. Maybe there should be more traitors at the start, but no recruitment. Or maybe traitors should have to earn the right to recruit in the missions by doing some secret traitor tasks.
YES, I have been thinking both of these ideas. First one especially as I also enjoy watching "The Mole" and I think if they had to sabotage in someway it would be useful for the faithful, but also if they successfully sabotage they could earn a recruitment?
Actually Crave has been absolutely super with airing all the various Traitors seasons (UK, US, NZ, Aus, even our Cdn version) as soon as they were aired in their own countries...we've been really lucky there.
Remember James Watt’s appearance on BBC’s Who’s the Boss which was an absolute car crash for him. That episode is no where to be found strangely, other than a few random clips
No producer in their right mind would ever cast Richard Osman in the celebrity Traitors, as it would be an uphill struggle outsmarting him. His insight into being a TV producer would have him correctly guessing their intentions every time!
The seer power is brilliant in Ultimate Werewolf, but they have that power from the beginning and nobody knows they have it or whose identity they have discovered.
My wife has refused to watch the Traitors as she "would hate it", having watched a couple of the latest episodes of the latest US version and then watching the first series from Australia, tonight started watching the first series of the UK Traitors. I went out at 6pm for my weekly gaming group, as she sat down to watch, I got back at 11pm to find her rapt in the show... okay she can skip though but she watched 6 episodes. This from a person that previously didn't like Claudia, is now a convert and stating "this is the show she was born to present"... may she gets frustrated with the crying but she wants to see what happens next. The Traitors gets under you skin...
I love everything you said about the Traitors. Totally right about Leanne and Livi, and when Minah chose Charlotte it was heartbreaking how much she trusted her!! But Charlotte played so so well and was ultimately a great traitor. It's so ridiculous how they don't trust clever people, especially because those are the most interesting people.
I agree about the seer. That was not the way to do it. What they should have done is secretly appoint a seer from the start who can secretly learn the allegiance of one player every day and who, cruicially, plays only for themselves. The seer wins on their own if they survive til the end and there are no more werewolves... I mean TRAITORS. That means the seer is very useful to the faithful right until the end but then becomes an oponent that needs to be banished and they are the traitors' number 1 enemy from the start. Really interesting dynamic.
Regarding 38:59, as much as it is a bit annoying I understand why they were doing it. The main way Harry won season 2 was through was stringing a faithful along all the way. The contestants are terrified of being this year’s Mollie, But they can’t say that on the show because it seems like they can’t explicitly reference the meta elements.
The seer twist only ruined it because Charlotte completely messed up with the final recruitment and murder. If she had recruited someone not under suspicion and actually murdered a faithful it would have been 2 traitors v 3 faithfuls going into the final and all to play for during the votes despite the seer
I thought she should have recruited Jake because there was no suspicion on him and I don't think he would betray her so the next logical move would be to kill Frankie. The only other logical option (considering both Alexander and Freddie were under suspicion) would be recruiting Frankie and killing Jake which would also solve the problem. (What I learned from a different version of Traitors is that you can't be given an ultimatum when you have a shield so recruiting Leanne would be risky as she would get a letter as if it was a regular recruitment and would be able to say no)
I think the Seer role on the Traitors could work if they tweaked it. Have the challenge still to earn the Seer power, though earlier in the show. But make it so that no one else knows who it is. The Seer finds out the identity of another each round but use an envelope and not face to face. This suddenly makes the role more about whether or not they can convince the others of the information, without giving themselves away. The danger being if they are caught, the Traitors would likely banish them. And if they announce they are the Seer, well so could everyone else.
Frankie choosing Charlotte with the Seer power immediately took all tension or guessing away from the final. From that point on it was obvious what was going to happen. They would all keep voting to get down to two players. All the drama was gone. And for that, this ended up being the worst series. The drama of the Season 2 final will likely never be matched in future series. Alexander was the smartest faithful left, and I think he quickly realized that by getting someone he believed to be faithful in a position to win the Seer ability (once his chance was gone) and choose to reveal him was the best way to win the game for him. So he really pushed hard to get Frankie to choose him. The problem arose in that Frankie was thinking the same thing. She believed that Alexander might be a Traitor so chose who she thought was a Faithful, to win the game with. It back-fired. Just bad luck. I think the big problem with this format functioning as a game is that it is presented as an us versus them situation, when what it in fact delivers is a Me versus Everyone situation. And if that continues then what you will see in future series is bandwagons on anyone vocal or clever at the round table and Traitors continuing to recruit to throw the recruits under the bus. It will become too predictable, as future contestants will better understand how to win the game. They are going to have to make it a true Us versus Them game. If one Traitor wins, they all win. This would promote team work and more strategic play. It could also promote sacrifices amongst the Traitors. And any back stabbing would be more shocking. I think the current format is doomed to repetition.
The seer would have worked as a concept if none of them knew who the seer was and no one knew who had been called in. Seperate the players to different rooms. Then the seer is told then the players get called in 1 by 1
I really feel like the final would have played out more or less the same without the seer. The seer just made the outcome more inevitable. Charlotte’s mistake was taking the unintended bait of framing Freddie, otherwise she might well have gone undetected. And we really need to quash the myth that there’s no point voting out a traitor early. Maybe not day 1 or 2 but after that you get clues from their voting history, it sews discord and distrust in the traitors turret and any recruits are usually distrustful from the off. The last thing a faithful wants is a solid team of traitors working together.
Season 2 in the US makes it really interesting as half of them are seasoned reality game players and are very clued up on how to catch traitors or survive to the end.
The “seer” was a good twist but: they (possibly) should have done it a little earlier in the game. I would suggest they could do a slightly more underhanded twist of taking one player out for a day, so neither the Traitors or Faithfuls know what has happened to them. Then they return the next day. Or, perhaps, take the “seer” another direction and have one or two players in a separate group. They get told who the initial three traitors are - but don’t know who any recruits are etc. They can gain a shield by achieving a separate task - example: the traitors murder in plain sight, but these new “seer” players have to interfere somehow, undetected. So, they could have to steal the pen/quill used to write on the grave stones. The traitors then fail their task or don’t complete it, so a shield is won. It’s just something that could be going from the start and be undermining the traitors, whilst the main game is going. (This series was a bit odd though. They broke their own set up rules by dumping one player before they even participated! And then had some really weird tasks/challenges, that though they were inventive, didn’t really serve a purpose)
It's so weird that frankie never trusted alexander at the end given he'd done everything he possibly could to prove he's a faithful. A traitor wouldnt be trying to get a seer power meeting. So then, frankie could have convinced everyone else of his innocence, and kept him in the final. Saying that, Leanne seemed to think everyone waa guilty by the end so maybe not...
Who am I to correct Richard Osman on a TV production, but I just don't think the celebrity version will be as good. It will be 20 people who we all have pre conceived notions of as we know them as opposed to a random group of people, they will generally all be performers of some sort and they aren't fighting it out for money for themselves.
Do the linkdin deep dive, I don't get it either. I'm sure you'll make it entertaining - hard work, as it seems one of the more earnestly tedious corners of the internet.
I think the problem with tying the missions into the A plot game, with opportunities to sabotage etc, is that steps on the toes of the Mole- and it's pretty clear the producers want the Traitors to retain its own unique identity, what with zero mention of the Seer being a werewolf power and changing its mechanics slightly.
UBlock. Install it now. I've had zero ads with it. You owe it to yourself and the internet generally to block ads. I couldn't stand YT or any other site without it
Just before Minah was banished, there were seven of them, which means at most three traitors. When Minah gets banished, there are at most two traitors left and it seems very unlikely that they would be allowed to recruit as the traitors would have the advantage at 3v3 (and possibly 3v2 if they were additionally allowed to murder). When Freddie gets banished, it doesn't make sense that there would be more than one traitor left and since there was no traitor activity after that banishment, it means there is only one. I couldn't understand why they suspected there was more than one traitor at the end and it had to be either Charlotte or Frankie as they contradicted each other.
Remember that it's in every faithfuls interest to banish other faithfuls at the end, as the prize pot is shared. So even though they probably knew there were no more traitors they might as well make out like they do to justify banishing more people. It's one of the many flaws of the format
@@Franklinstein123 Agreed, I can see that being a strategy and you would only need one risk taker in the group to employ it, but they genuinely seemed paranoid at the end (particularly Leanne who momentarily thought even Jake was a traitor).
But because they don’t reveal if they are traitors or faithfuls they can’t be sure they got the traitor. So even if they think there’s only one traitor left they vote both out to make sure
One minor tweak on Traitors that I think would be an improvement is at the final, they anonymise who votes to keep banishing and who votes to end the game. Perhaps a variation on that which could happen early, when there are lots of players, is that a task could be 10 v 10 and the members of the winning team get their round table vote to be secret.
Totally agree with your first point. No one wants to risk voting to end the banishments, as it identifies them as a Traitor in the eyes of the remaining contestants, so the format pretty much guarantees that only two Faithfuls can win. Yes, I know that three people shared the win in the first series, but II’d put that down to it being a new show (for the UK) and the contestants not yet being wise to the format.
I felt the combination of the seer and the contestants not revealing if they were a traitor or faithful didn't work. And if they withhold the identities for future seasons then I cannot see a scenario where more than 2 faithfuls win.
Soooo pleased you talk about the reality of the Traitors. The fact that winners are often the contestants with no clue, is really unfair. I'm happy that Jake won, but Leanne was dim, and actually quite vile. I totally agree that she was straight from the other more trashy reality tv shows, that I avoid watching. Frankie also didn't deserve to get to the final, she was clueless. If it was on merit, then Charlotte should have also shared the prize, along with Minah.
One of the bigger comments/opinions I've seen over the last week is that there are people who'd like to be able to watch The Traitors with the option of not knowing who the Traitor is. I doubt they'd ever actually do that, but it's an interesting notion. I do find it interesting, how quickly the common sense dissipates and lord of the flies, pack mentality takes over (and almost always taking them in the wrong direction)
I think that would step on the toes of the Mole too much? They're already adapting roles from vanilla Werewolf to have their Traitors 'spin', I imagine the producers run a balancing act trying to stay distinct from other properties so they can't be called a ripoff.
The US version is saved by the wonderful Alan C, apart from him it’s so painful and narcissistic. Reality Caleb’s are boring to watch, and they ought to be playing for charity. Thumbs down to the US version. Thumbs up to the NZ version though! They get the balance right.
This, i have come across many people who are later in life in pretty standard jobs, who have retired or close to. Lots of them loved their jobs, because their pay allowed them often to have a family, house, decent standard of living and have some nice things like ocasional holiday etc etc. Nowa days the younger people in the same jobs have seen their pension conditions screwed, pay crushed by inflation and the ability to own a home, (crazy rise in house prices), have a decent standard of living ruined. So no surprise those people arent happy and think its just a job that lets me exist and not live.
I disagree with Richard completely when he said without the seer, Charlotte would have won the show. Leanne and Jake were suspicious of her as soon as Freddie voted her before he left. They wouldn’t have taken the risk to have her in the final with them. Leanne and Jake would have voted her out.
36:56 Harry from season 2 said that if the seer situation happened to him, he would tell the faithful that if they let him win, he would give them a part of the prize money. That might be the only opportunity in that situation for both of them how to win (money). Not sure if that isn't against the rules though and the faithful would have to trust that the traitor actually plans to split the money.
I definitely would not trust him. the problem was Frankie picked a traitor . If she chose anyone else or if a traitor got the Seer we wouldn't have seen this situation. Maybe it should have been just between the two of them and maybe have a rule that cannot reveal their conversation
the seer thing could have been solved for both Charlotte and Frankie if they just werent honest with the info until there were three or four people left, then one of them would have a chance of winning.
44:46 wrong on this point. There actually was a returning member that was meant to be a traitor. The yorkshire guy. But nobody picked him so he didn’t rejoin the cast.
There is much more to the Lively v Baldoni case that you have missed. He has excellent evidence by way of texts, voice notes, actual uncut footage etc. (that his lawyer has openly put into the public arena) that refute her version of things. Interesting that she and her husband sought to buy the rights of the second book from Baldoni, which he refused, and that there is a clause in Baldoni's contract with the author that should he be defamed he can lose those rights. Also, comparing how she is treated to her husband, she did a movie about DV and used it to promote her haircare and alcohol and going on about her wardrobe... this was in poor taste, her husband did not do the same, so consequently cannot be criticised in the same way. However, Reynolds did take over the Dead Pool franchise ousting the original director and he has been critised for this and also now for his involvement in belittling Baldoni by creating the characterisation of NicePool as Baldoni. There's so much more- anyone interested you can find lots of breakdowns online that address facts of the case
Oh boy, you’ve fallen for it hook line and sinker. Funny how everything her side has done has been legally sound and everything his side has done has got other lawyers laughing at him.
We don't know who is right, only the court will decide and, no doubt, more will come out... just saying there's two sides to every story and it's good to hear both sides, especially when it's been put out there in the public domain
There was one chance for Frankie or Charlotte - for them to agree that Frankie lies and openly says Charlotte is faithful. Then both of them can play behind the scenes a bit to convince others to vote the other out at the firepit later. It would be hard, but I think they could have had a chance.
On traitors I assume the seer was an emergency response to the fact that Charlotte had the win locked down. If a faithful had confirmed a faithful would have maybe have been a balanced ending. They should have written it so the seer randomly learns a faithful.
Arwa Mahdawi of The Guardian did a rather scathing piece on Blake Lively last August. Does that make her part of Justin Baldoni's 5th column or simply another case of female-perpetrated misogyny ? Or was it just maybe a little bit cynical to use a movie about domestic violence to shill gin and makeup?
I suppose the one thing that's hard to grasp as a viewer of Traitors is the human connection these people make while in the game together. It might seem obvious to us that the smart thing to do in the case of Charlotte and Frankie is to just eliminate them both, but I doubt it's that simple while you're actually playing the game and emotions are running high. You could see that right at the end Leanne was still really struggling to vote out Frankie, despite it being an obvious play.
it's the way ultimately the seer themselves don't benefit from gaining it in the slightest. either way if frankie found a traitor, she would've placed herself in heat without the reward of finding a traitor without any backlash. if she doesn't find a traitor, she still gets under fire for potentially lying about not having found one, or even conspiring with the other player involved with whoever she picks. it just felt very lackluster, it was a prize given for placing first in what was a gauntlet of challenges, but in the end it was the exact thing that sent her home.
I'm not sure if the not revealing did work. In theory, it seemed like a good idea but in practice it makes it even more likely that it ends up with just 2 people left since they have no logic anymore. And it was completely obvious that was going to happen too in the finale which took away a lot of the suspense that can happen.
While the outcome of the seer was almost certainly both players being kicked I did wonder what would have happened if Charlotte breezed into breakfast telling everyone how wonderful it was that she and Frankie both now knew they were faithful. Then when Frankie said Charlotte was a traitor she could have acted surprised and hurt and possibly, just possibly convinced the others that Frankie must have deceived her at the meeting and therefore must be a traitor. It would have been a long shot but since anything else ended up in both being kicked a long shot was all she had.
I didn't watch the first two series of Traitors because I assumed it was fake/curated. I got well into this series, and I'm glad it's over. I won't be back for series 4. I can't work out how fake it is. Listening to people discussing it, who fully believe (know) it to be real, is a weird experience. People believe it must be real because it could be. Why fake something that could be achieved for real. But I view it as a producer might. It's too fragile. Linda turning her head in episode 1, outing herself as a Traitor. But managing to survive for several episodes. It probably isn't 100% acted, but I'm sure that it is curated to some extent.
28:24 Unfortunately Richard you are wrong. I’ve worked on several BBC and ITV dramas and only two have had an intimacy coordinator and that is because they had sex scenes not kissing scenes.
Frankie and Charlotte were only doomeed because neither of them seemed to realise Frankie saying anything would ruin both of their games. Best shot was to work together for a time being.
Can't believe Leanne was allowed to stay in the game being the anti-intellectual bully she is (and over emotional Livi). Smartest players (Dan, Alexander) had been eliminated by bullies and Jake was the only one who deserved to win in the end.
As someone who doesn't watch the traiters and all I really know is there are faithful s and traitors the fact that you thought a "Seer" would be hard to explain is the most insane thing you have said 😂
This is what happens when you mess with a perfect formula because you think it needs to be kept fresh. Traitors was perfection last year, can't see it ever beaten. Harry was a brilliant winner, the last five minutes of that show was worthy of a Hollywood script writer. The tension was top notch. The seer twist this year was a disaster. It ruined the final. On what planet should a traitor's identity be handed to a faithful !!! Ridiculous. It was badly thought out. Hope they do better next year.
The main problem with The Traitors is that nobody has anything to go on, so it’s all just boring, arbitrary “you scratched your chin in a funny way” or “Dunno, no idea, just a hunch” rationalisations. The missions are so dull; the audience really doesn’t care whether you add £100 or £500 to a meaningless figure. There just isn’t any tension there and sadly that takes up the most running time. The solution of course, which I still can’t believe the creators have missed, is to fix the prize fund and make the missions pass/fail affairs with failure meaning the Traitors may murder. That’s it. Simple. Tense missions, a dramatic clash of incentivises, the traitors trying to sabotage the missions without breaking their cover, and loads of (mis)information for the faithful as they point the finger at anyone who made a mistake, didn’t pull their weight or wasn’t good enough. As it is, the missions are just this side quest nobody cares about, and none of the contestants have anything to go on, which makes it a total random fest. Oh and don’t get me started on the seer. Charlotte should sue the show for how badly the producers stitched her up in such a clear attempt to ensure no traitors made it to the final and won it again!
I LOVE you guys, but have to say the whole brew dog discussion was just mean. He wants something and is going for it, not my cup of tea but using your position to publicly ridicule him because he's not as cool as you, is not cool.
This 'seer ruined the final' comment has been thrown around a lot but I don't think it would have played out that differently without it. Charlotte had already been too short-sighted in her plan and turning on Freddie so quickly meant he'd already sowed doubts about her - remember that's why Frankie picked her in the first place! Those doubts would have been there regardless. If anything, the person this twist hurt was Frankie herself, which adds an interesting element to the show - the seer may actually be a curse to whoever gets it instead of a blessing
Goodness why spend so much time talking about James Watt ? The introduction of the Seer in Traitors ruined the ending for me . I agree it didn’t work. Yes it was a bit nasty. Both people understandably distressed and desperate.
@ I get what you mean…TBH he wasn’t on my radar until I saw this conversation and now he is…it’s just annoying that such people get so much attention, but as you say, it’s important that they are ‘kept an eye on’
on the traitors; the best game was for Frankie as the seeer would have been to say they were both faithfuls; and not out charlotte as a traitor. but knowing this frankie could have in the final played it out and won.
Traitors is so addictive. I came late to the show. There is no doubt the show format is deeply flawed but somehow it still has the ability to draw the viewer in and get them hooked. Of course the casting is vital and it is refreshing to have intelligent contestants rather than the trashy brain dead botoxed who speak in grunts and garbled English and spend their lives jumping from one reality show to the next. Claudia is the cherry on top- she brings that special sauce that makes it all so wonderful. The US celebrity version is much more brash and cutthroat and is played very differently. As a Scot I love Alan Cumming but I cannot stand the persona presented on the show. It's an American construct of a Highland Laird and it fails completely- there are far more references to mid European Barrons that once were a staple of 60s TV shows like The Saint. I'm amazed that Alan goes along with it. I certainly enjoy the slight changes made each series to keep things fresh. I wonder how long before the show overstays its welcome?
In the Blake Lively discussion you did not mention any of the released unredacted messages that counter most of Blake Lively's redacted messages and accusations. I think its important you mention them and show them as you both seemed to be very one sided on Blake Livelys side.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. They are missing most of the story. It's almost like Marina doesn't want to piss off WME and the Hollywood elite... 👀
A traitor wouldn't have been sent home if they lost. If it got down to them and a faithful playing that game, then the traitor would stand up and say 'you're murdered' then go back to the castle saying they are a faithful. As the players had to leave as soon as they lost then they wouldnt't know any better either.
The producers were careful to make sure that a traitor wasn't part of the game. The players were told there might be a traitor playing, so when it came to the last two players there was a chance one would be the traitor (and the other player would be murdered without playing the last round).
Update about Alexander. The donations to the charity for his brother have now reached what he would have won. 😊
Found Leanne one of those workplace bullies who are horrible to others but go straight to the boss if anything is said to her. Agree the Seer was a mistake.
Not really. She seems the type to fiercely fight for others who have been aggrieved or treated unfairly as well as herself, though she maybe prone to getting the wrong end of the stick.
I found Leanne annoying quite a lot of the time, but she also seemed to be quite a complicated personality to me. Probably someone looked worse on the show than she is in everyday life.
I felt the same way. She could accuse anyone else of being a traitor but everyone was just supposed to buy that she was faithful because she'd pounce on them if they dared to look at her funny. She got to the end by bullying others into being too scared to accuse her
@@jayro792that's what she'd put in her Facebook bio at least
I love that The Traitors is 3 episodes a week for four weeks rather than 1 episode a week for 12 weeks. It gives it a sense of urgency and it also keeps me engaged despite my long term memory issues (I'm a child of the MTV generation)
What happened to Jack was ridiculously unfair. In series 1, Claudia says the ONLY way you can exit the game is if you’re banished or murdered and he wasn’t (this is definitely partly why he decided to step off the train btw). So yes, they have to bring him back I think.
Only took 3 seasons for them to retcon that. But I imagine from their pov, every traitors season is a new game, a new rulebook and things get updated
The game changes. You cant expect the same rules to apply as 2 years ago. If it were played the exact same then it would become predictable for the contestants and stale for the viewers much quicker. Jack knew it was a risk and took it
Think they got around that by saying that when they were on the train they weren't yet in the game.
Well, he wasn't in the game yet. Think of it as he is still trying to get into the game.
I’ve already forgotten Jack 😂. Which was he ?
Oh for the days of rich businesspeople like Joseph Rowntree/John Cadbury etc who actually contributed something to society
There are so many loose ends on the Traitors format that need to be tied up. Especially when it comes to recruiting, ultimatum and obviously the seer. I play a lot of boardgames with these kinds of traitor mechanics (Battlestar Galactica, Secret Hitler,...) and the game doesn't end if all traitors are voted out half way, as paranoia takes over. We played a game where we forgot to assign our "traitors" and it still gave massive amounts of conflict. At this moment it feels like the first 8 episodes don't matter, just avoid being voted out, because the producers have a ratio they want in their final episodes. Even if you vote out traitor after traitor in the first episodes, you still have to deal with 1 or 2 traitors by the end.
And that’s also the problem with the seer, if you play secret hitler you know if 2 players disagree (either I had no choice, yes you did, or check party) you freeze out both players. The moment Frankie and charlotte disagreed the other 3 should have just frozen them out and told them up front “your both being evicted”
If there's no traitors left, no one would be getting murdered though.
There needs to be a penalty for Faithfuls in the final next year - if they vote out other Faithfuls, the prize pot goes down. Stops them getting greedy.
That's a great idea!
In future discussions, please refer to James Watt as either Poundshop Andrew Tate or Temu Andrew Tate.
I thought the seer would have worked better if it wasnt face to face. Ie. They could select one person and find out if they were a traitor or faithful but no one else including the person selected knows who the seer chose
Ooooh that's interesting. Paranoia would be through the roof but it wouldn't make an instant visceral 1 vs 1 where both parties are gonna be sent home
@@etherspin I think it makes the seer less of a poisoned chalice if they do it that way. Plus interesting dynamic if the seer having chosen a faithful tries to bluff to get a traitor to reveal themselves. If they do that and go after a faithful then the traitor knows their cover isnt blown.
Yea that's the perfect way to play it. Introduce it earlier (but not at the start, perhaps, as a much better hidden reward than the shield in an early mission maybe?), let everyone know that there is a seer, and then both the faithful and the traitors have the goal of identifying the seer for different reasons, and the seer has a survival instinct built in to the role.
Only problem with doing the seer too early is that traitors could recruit that same night/next night which makes it a bit pointless. Doesnt really matter who goes out at the start because traitors just get replaced, though I suppose if they find a traitor they can hold on to that information but need to make sure they dont get voted out
They'd have to keep the identity of the Seer a secret as well, otherwise, no one would know if the Seer is actually telling the truth or not about what they found out, and they'd still have a target on their heads. As soon as you're made to stand out from anyone else, you're toast, sooner or later.
Just wanted to say I could listen to you to on this podcast all day. And often do to be honest. Really appreciate the content and hope it runs for a very long time.
Ditto! My all time fav podcast, never a dull episode!
I always compare Alan Cumming’s character in Traitors US to Richard O’Briens in The Crystal Maze. He’s the host, the gamesmaster and a character within the world and fiction of the programme.
None of the other English language hosts are quite as steeped in the lore of the show as he is.
And he is absolutely magnificent at all times.
"Has James Watts said anything?" I lol'd at that one :D
I'm still flabbergasted that Frankie didn't vote Leanne at the last 4 to force a tie. She must know they will boot her after Alexander was out.
She wasn’t the most logical game player.
I think the Seer can still work if it's earlier in the series, so that there's more time for the "your words against mine" dynamic to sink in. Frankie picking Charlotte provided *immediate* tension for that night's roundtable but as soon as Charlotte's gone, all heat died for the viewers. So in hindsight, it's best for us the viewers if Frankie had picked a faithful b/c surely 1 of them would be banished leaving Charlotte in the true final with real tension for us.
The only problem is as Richard said , if its a traitor and a faithful , one of them is lying at least so you just vote them both out , that's the best play. Even if they come back and say they are both faithful , they could both be traitors , so vote them out anyway , in the early part it really doesn't matter who goes, yes you want to vote out traitors , but the odds are harder , so get the numbers down.
Its the same if you are traitors and one gets banished ,you should never recruit , because in a numbers game only two people is better than three , an extra person brought in means an extra person who could make a mistake and make your position vulnerable.
@@steve10the thing is Frankie played it poorly IMO. Charlotte went to the others and said that Frankie told her she was a traitor. Had Frankie been a traitor, she would have no reason to reveal that to Charlotte. The power gave Frankie the ability to see what Charlotte was not the other way around. She should've explained that to the others
What was annoying to me was how it was lauded (by Claudia herself, on Uncloaked) as a truly original invention by the amazing producers, even though it's been a basic role in Werewolf from the game's Inception. You'd think the editors would know better.
I agree that the seer basically made the final episode outcome inevitable: you couldn't keep either seer or traitor in, and Alexander had put in extra coins to make Frankie seer so had to be voted out too. But it's a concept that might work if they had the power but no-one else knows.
There are a few things about the current Traitors format that I think could be improved;
* Make each mission have something in it for the traitors to mildly sabotage - there were a few hints of this in a couple of missions but not all. Maybe introduce a "traitor clue" as one prize option for each mission instead of cash, and if earned, would reveal one true small bit of information about a traitor. Traitors would therefore have an interest in trying to keep it secret, and would have to avoid opening up too much to the others in case the information they give matches. Gives the faithful something solid to go on, whether from the clue, or from the traitors' performance in trying to stop them getting the clue, rather than just witch-hunting people at the round table because they looked at someone in a funny way.
* Make banishing a traitor actually mean something: in most of the early episodes, there is almost no benefit in finding a traitor over a faithful - the traitors can just recruit and you are back to the same situation of number of faithful & traitors - in fact it's worse: someone you previously built up trust with is now suddenly untrustworthy. And the recruitment of Harry right at the end was surely too late for a recruitment.. Maybe there should be more traitors at the start, but no recruitment. Or maybe traitors should have to earn the right to recruit in the missions by doing some secret traitor tasks.
YES, I have been thinking both of these ideas. First one especially as I also enjoy watching "The Mole" and I think if they had to sabotage in someway it would be useful for the faithful, but also if they successfully sabotage they could earn a recruitment?
would love Richard to be on Traitors! A cast of only crime writers would be amazing!
Brewdog TV as ‘content’ surely better spelt with the ‘o’ replaced with ‘u’, in consideration of the presenters.
Traitors came to Canada this year on Crave streaming so I was able to watch along at the same time as uk.
Really enjoyed being in synch for a change!
Actually Crave has been absolutely super with airing all the various Traitors seasons (UK, US, NZ, Aus, even our Cdn version) as soon as they were aired in their own countries...we've been really lucky there.
I could’ve gone my whole life without knowing about that brew dog knobhead. Thanks for that guys! 😅
Mr Watt's own surname is an anagram of how he is perceived in the craft beer world.
Remember James Watt’s appearance on BBC’s Who’s the Boss which was an absolute car crash for him. That episode is no where to be found strangely, other than a few random clips
No producer in their right mind would ever cast Richard Osman in the celebrity Traitors, as it would be an uphill struggle outsmarting him. His insight into being a TV producer would have him correctly guessing their intentions every time!
For "Traitors", someone suggested that if you vote out a faithful at the end - then the prize pot goes down.
Kudos to Richard for mentioning the injustice of the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland 😂
The seer power is brilliant in Ultimate Werewolf, but they have that power from the beginning and nobody knows they have it or whose identity they have discovered.
Just to confirm, ""complete prick" is not a "purely technical arcane showbiz term" and retains value in the general lexicon.
My wife has refused to watch the Traitors as she "would hate it", having watched a couple of the latest episodes of the latest US version and then watching the first series from Australia, tonight started watching the first series of the UK Traitors.
I went out at 6pm for my weekly gaming group, as she sat down to watch, I got back at 11pm to find her rapt in the show... okay she can skip though but she watched 6 episodes.
This from a person that previously didn't like Claudia, is now a convert and stating "this is the show she was born to present"... may she gets frustrated with the crying but she wants to see what happens next.
The Traitors gets under you skin...
I love everything you said about the Traitors. Totally right about Leanne and Livi, and when Minah chose Charlotte it was heartbreaking how much she trusted her!! But Charlotte played so so well and was ultimately a great traitor.
It's so ridiculous how they don't trust clever people, especially because those are the most interesting people.
“A horse with a horn STAPLED on its head.” Marina at her absolute best. Just hilarious. A nod to Bill Murray in Scrooged. 😂
She didn't say that though
I agree about the seer. That was not the way to do it. What they should have done is secretly appoint a seer from the start who can secretly learn the allegiance of one player every day and who, cruicially, plays only for themselves. The seer wins on their own if they survive til the end and there are no more werewolves... I mean TRAITORS. That means the seer is very useful to the faithful right until the end but then becomes an oponent that needs to be banished and they are the traitors' number 1 enemy from the start. Really interesting dynamic.
New show title "The Traitors and that one other Guy"
You are brilliant together. Love this podcast. Thankyou!
Regarding 38:59, as much as it is a bit annoying I understand why they were doing it. The main way Harry won season 2 was through was stringing a faithful along all the way. The contestants are terrified of being this year’s Mollie, But they can’t say that on the show because it seems like they can’t explicitly reference the meta elements.
The seer twist only ruined it because Charlotte completely messed up with the final recruitment and murder. If she had recruited someone not under suspicion and actually murdered a faithful it would have been 2 traitors v 3 faithfuls going into the final and all to play for during the votes despite the seer
I thought she should have recruited Jake because there was no suspicion on him and I don't think he would betray her so the next logical move would be to kill Frankie. The only other logical option (considering both Alexander and Freddie were under suspicion) would be recruiting Frankie and killing Jake which would also solve the problem. (What I learned from a different version of Traitors is that you can't be given an ultimatum when you have a shield so recruiting Leanne would be risky as she would get a letter as if it was a regular recruitment and would be able to say no)
I think the Seer role on the Traitors could work if they tweaked it.
Have the challenge still to earn the Seer power, though earlier in the show.
But make it so that no one else knows who it is.
The Seer finds out the identity of another each round but use an envelope and not face to face.
This suddenly makes the role more about whether or not they can convince the others of the information, without giving themselves away. The danger being if they are caught, the Traitors would likely banish them.
And if they announce they are the Seer, well so could everyone else.
“Another phone that went into the water” 😂💀
Frankie choosing Charlotte with the Seer power immediately took all tension or guessing away from the final. From that point on it was obvious what was going to happen. They would all keep voting to get down to two players. All the drama was gone. And for that, this ended up being the worst series. The drama of the Season 2 final will likely never be matched in future series.
Alexander was the smartest faithful left, and I think he quickly realized that by getting someone he believed to be faithful in a position to win the Seer ability (once his chance was gone) and choose to reveal him was the best way to win the game for him. So he really pushed hard to get Frankie to choose him.
The problem arose in that Frankie was thinking the same thing. She believed that Alexander might be a Traitor so chose who she thought was a Faithful, to win the game with. It back-fired. Just bad luck.
I think the big problem with this format functioning as a game is that it is presented as an us versus them situation, when what it in fact delivers is a Me versus Everyone situation. And if that continues then what you will see in future series is bandwagons on anyone vocal or clever at the round table and Traitors continuing to recruit to throw the recruits under the bus. It will become too predictable, as future contestants will better understand how to win the game.
They are going to have to make it a true Us versus Them game. If one Traitor wins, they all win. This would promote team work and more strategic play. It could also promote sacrifices amongst the Traitors. And any back stabbing would be more shocking.
I think the current format is doomed to repetition.
So excited for theLinkedIn deep dive. As a young person I feel it's a necessary evil, but I really hate it
The seer would have worked as a concept if none of them knew who the seer was and no one knew who had been called in.
Seperate the players to different rooms. Then the seer is told then the players get called in 1 by 1
I really feel like the final would have played out more or less the same without the seer. The seer just made the outcome more inevitable. Charlotte’s mistake was taking the unintended bait of framing Freddie, otherwise she might well have gone undetected.
And we really need to quash the myth that there’s no point voting out a traitor early. Maybe not day 1 or 2 but after that you get clues from their voting history, it sews discord and distrust in the traitors turret and any recruits are usually distrustful from the off. The last thing a faithful wants is a solid team of traitors working together.
Couldn’t finish the first season of the american Traitors.
The fact that they are all existing reality stars spoils it for me.
Season 2 in the US makes it really interesting as half of them are seasoned reality game players and are very clued up on how to catch traitors or survive to the end.
The “seer” was a good twist but: they (possibly) should have done it a little earlier in the game.
I would suggest they could do a slightly more underhanded twist of taking one player out for a day, so neither the Traitors or Faithfuls know what has happened to them.
Then they return the next day.
Or, perhaps, take the “seer” another direction and have one or two players in a separate group. They get told who the initial three traitors are - but don’t know who any recruits are etc.
They can gain a shield by achieving a separate task - example: the traitors murder in plain sight, but these new “seer” players have to interfere somehow, undetected.
So, they could have to steal the pen/quill used to write on the grave stones. The traitors then fail their task or don’t complete it, so a shield is won.
It’s just something that could be going from the start and be undermining the traitors, whilst the main game is going.
(This series was a bit odd though. They broke their own set up rules by dumping one player before they even participated! And then had some really weird tasks/challenges, that though they were inventive, didn’t really serve a purpose)
Thank you for chaptering the content so I can avoid any Traitors content
Definitely Jack needs to asked to do Traitors again 👍
It's so weird that frankie never trusted alexander at the end given he'd done everything he possibly could to prove he's a faithful. A traitor wouldnt be trying to get a seer power meeting. So then, frankie could have convinced everyone else of his innocence, and kept him in the final. Saying that, Leanne seemed to think everyone waa guilty by the end so maybe not...
Now I'm excited for the celeb version because Richard says the casting is brilliant! Can't wait!
Who am I to correct Richard Osman on a TV production, but I just don't think the celebrity version will be as good. It will be 20 people who we all have pre conceived notions of as we know them as opposed to a random group of people, they will generally all be performers of some sort and they aren't fighting it out for money for themselves.
Do the linkdin deep dive, I don't get it either. I'm sure you'll make it entertaining - hard work, as it seems one of the more earnestly tedious corners of the internet.
The Seer thing I found funny.
I wouldn’t take it that seriously. If she picked someone else it would’ve gone differently.
NYT also doesn’t accept “titian” for the Spelling Bee. Lucy Maud Montgomery would be so disappointed 😅
I think the problem with tying the missions into the A plot game, with opportunities to sabotage etc, is that steps on the toes of the Mole- and it's pretty clear the producers want the Traitors to retain its own unique identity, what with zero mention of the Seer being a werewolf power and changing its mechanics slightly.
Yes - from me and Mrs Fox. Love you guys by the way. Wonderful chats and insights. Thank you.
35 minutes deep, the 23rd advert starts.
Ridiculous.
Edit: 40 minutes in, 24th advert.
What the actual fuck???
UBlock. Install it now. I've had zero ads with it. You owe it to yourself and the internet generally to block ads. I couldn't stand YT or any other site without it
Just before Minah was banished, there were seven of them, which means at most three traitors. When Minah gets banished, there are at most two traitors left and it seems very unlikely that they would be allowed to recruit as the traitors would have the advantage at 3v3 (and possibly 3v2 if they were additionally allowed to murder). When Freddie gets banished, it doesn't make sense that there would be more than one traitor left and since there was no traitor activity after that banishment, it means there is only one. I couldn't understand why they suspected there was more than one traitor at the end and it had to be either Charlotte or Frankie as they contradicted each other.
Remember that it's in every faithfuls interest to banish other faithfuls at the end, as the prize pot is shared. So even though they probably knew there were no more traitors they might as well make out like they do to justify banishing more people. It's one of the many flaws of the format
@@Franklinstein123 Agreed, I can see that being a strategy and you would only need one risk taker in the group to employ it, but they genuinely seemed paranoid at the end (particularly Leanne who momentarily thought even Jake was a traitor).
But because they don’t reveal if they are traitors or faithfuls they can’t be sure they got the traitor. So even if they think there’s only one traitor left they vote both out to make sure
@@iceman9646 Yes, so vote out Frankie and Charlotte (because it has to be one of them) and leave Alexander.
Common sense and logical thinking seems to desert a lot of people when they're locked in a Scottish castle for several weeks.
It'd be interesting to see Richard on Celebrity Traitors, if he would go on
Once Charlotte was sleected her game and Frankies was over.
If I'm a faithful I know 1 is lying, so just get rid of both of them no matter what.
One minor tweak on Traitors that I think would be an improvement is at the final, they anonymise who votes to keep banishing and who votes to end the game.
Perhaps a variation on that which could happen early, when there are lots of players, is that a task could be 10 v 10 and the members of the winning team get their round table vote to be secret.
Totally agree with your first point. No one wants to risk voting to end the banishments, as it identifies them as a Traitor in the eyes of the remaining contestants, so the format pretty much guarantees that only two Faithfuls can win. Yes, I know that three people shared the win in the first series, but II’d put that down to it being a new show (for the UK) and the contestants not yet being wise to the format.
I felt the combination of the seer and the contestants not revealing if they were a traitor or faithful didn't work.
And if they withhold the identities for future seasons then I cannot see a scenario where more than 2 faithfuls win.
It has made the seer a poison chalice for future series. Rather than being something to win the loser of the challenge should end up with that power.
Soooo pleased you talk about the reality of the Traitors. The fact that winners are often the contestants with no clue, is really unfair. I'm happy that Jake won, but Leanne was dim, and actually quite vile. I totally agree that she was straight from the other more trashy reality tv shows, that I avoid watching.
Frankie also didn't deserve to get to the final, she was clueless.
If it was on merit, then Charlotte should have also shared the prize, along with Minah.
One of the bigger comments/opinions I've seen over the last week is that there are people who'd like to be able to watch The Traitors with the option of not knowing who the Traitor is. I doubt they'd ever actually do that, but it's an interesting notion.
I do find it interesting, how quickly the common sense dissipates and lord of the flies, pack mentality takes over (and almost always taking them in the wrong direction)
I think that would step on the toes of the Mole too much? They're already adapting roles from vanilla Werewolf to have their Traitors 'spin', I imagine the producers run a balancing act trying to stay distinct from other properties so they can't be called a ripoff.
The US version is saved by the wonderful Alan C, apart from him it’s so painful and narcissistic. Reality Caleb’s are boring to watch, and they ought to be playing for charity. Thumbs down to the US version. Thumbs up to the NZ version though! They get the balance right.
People don't love their jobs because they can't afford to get on in life.
This, i have come across many people who are later in life in pretty standard jobs, who have retired or close to. Lots of them loved their jobs, because their pay allowed them often to have a family, house, decent standard of living and have some nice things like ocasional holiday etc etc. Nowa days the younger people in the same jobs have seen their pension conditions screwed, pay crushed by inflation and the ability to own a home, (crazy rise in house prices), have a decent standard of living ruined. So no surprise those people arent happy and think its just a job that lets me exist and not live.
I disagree with Richard completely when he said without the seer, Charlotte would have won the show. Leanne and Jake were suspicious of her as soon as Freddie voted her before he left. They wouldn’t have taken the risk to have her in the final with them. Leanne and Jake would have voted her out.
Definitely Charlotte made her mistakes before the Seer by recruiting freddy. Otherwise I thought she played a fabulous game
I love that Marina also doesn't think Alan is a great traitors host. He's...fine. Claudia is amazing.
Im loving the US show. Boston Rob is a legend and I punched the air when he took down the drag act 😂😂😂
36:56 Harry from season 2 said that if the seer situation happened to him, he would tell the faithful that if they let him win, he would give them a part of the prize money. That might be the only opportunity in that situation for both of them how to win (money). Not sure if that isn't against the rules though and the faithful would have to trust that the traitor actually plans to split the money.
I definitely would not trust him. the problem was Frankie picked a traitor . If she chose anyone else or if a traitor got the Seer we wouldn't have seen this situation. Maybe it should have been just between the two of them and maybe have a rule that cannot reveal their conversation
the seer thing could have been solved for both Charlotte and Frankie if they just werent honest with the info until there were three or four people left, then one of them would have a chance of winning.
Love this podcast!
44:46 wrong on this point. There actually was a returning member that was meant to be a traitor. The yorkshire guy. But nobody picked him so he didn’t rejoin the cast.
There is much more to the Lively v Baldoni case that you have missed. He has excellent evidence by way of texts, voice notes, actual uncut footage etc. (that his lawyer has openly put into the public arena) that refute her version of things. Interesting that she and her husband sought to buy the rights of the second book from Baldoni, which he refused, and that there is a clause in Baldoni's contract with the author that should he be defamed he can lose those rights. Also, comparing how she is treated to her husband, she did a movie about DV and used it to promote her haircare and alcohol and going on about her wardrobe... this was in poor taste, her husband did not do the same, so consequently cannot be criticised in the same way. However, Reynolds did take over the Dead Pool franchise ousting the original director and he has been critised for this and also now for his involvement in belittling Baldoni by creating the characterisation of NicePool as Baldoni. There's so much more- anyone interested you can find lots of breakdowns online that address facts of the case
He's getting his ass kicked lol
Oh boy, you’ve fallen for it hook line and sinker. Funny how everything her side has done has been legally sound and everything his side has done has got other lawyers laughing at him.
i haven‘t been following this case closely. has he ever responded to the sexual harassment allegations? i haven‘t seen anything from him on that.
We don't know who is right, only the court will decide and, no doubt, more will come out... just saying there's two sides to every story and it's good to hear both sides, especially when it's been put out there in the public domain
@lmr1049 Yes, his lawyer has put together a lengthy response with evidence, which is unusual to make public at this juncture. Hence, all the interest
There was one chance for Frankie or Charlotte - for them to agree that Frankie lies and openly says Charlotte is faithful. Then both of them can play behind the scenes a bit to convince others to vote the other out at the firepit later. It would be hard, but I think they could have had a chance.
'He's there is a shacket'
On traitors I assume the seer was an emergency response to the fact that Charlotte had the win locked down. If a faithful had confirmed a faithful would have maybe have been a balanced ending. They should have written it so the seer randomly learns a faithful.
Fishing boats in Fraserburgh don’t have captains, they have skippers.
Arwa Mahdawi of The Guardian did a rather scathing piece on Blake Lively last August.
Does that make her part of Justin Baldoni's 5th column or simply another case of female-perpetrated misogyny ?
Or was it just maybe a little bit cynical to use a movie about domestic violence to shill gin and makeup?
Traitors is always going to go down to last 2 from now on, fear of losing is trumping trust all the way.
I suppose the one thing that's hard to grasp as a viewer of Traitors is the human connection these people make while in the game together. It might seem obvious to us that the smart thing to do in the case of Charlotte and Frankie is to just eliminate them both, but I doubt it's that simple while you're actually playing the game and emotions are running high. You could see that right at the end Leanne was still really struggling to vote out Frankie, despite it being an obvious play.
James Twatt (said in the style of a New Jersey gangster).
it's the way ultimately the seer themselves don't benefit from gaining it in the slightest. either way if frankie found a traitor, she would've placed herself in heat without the reward of finding a traitor without any backlash. if she doesn't find a traitor, she still gets under fire for potentially lying about not having found one, or even conspiring with the other player involved with whoever she picks. it just felt very lackluster, it was a prize given for placing first in what was a gauntlet of challenges, but in the end it was the exact thing that sent her home.
I'm not sure if the not revealing did work. In theory, it seemed like a good idea but in practice it makes it even more likely that it ends up with just 2 people left since they have no logic anymore. And it was completely obvious that was going to happen too in the finale which took away a lot of the suspense that can happen.
It ruined it, because it gave someone who was a poor game player an unfair advantage over a very good traitor.
I think they should keep the seer role, rework it similar to the shields. Its a good mechanic for this kind of game.
Never heard of James Watt. So how is he everywhere?
While the outcome of the seer was almost certainly both players being kicked I did wonder what would have happened if Charlotte breezed into breakfast telling everyone how wonderful it was that she and Frankie both now knew they were faithful. Then when Frankie said Charlotte was a traitor she could have acted surprised and hurt and possibly, just possibly convinced the others that Frankie must have deceived her at the meeting and therefore must be a traitor.
It would have been a long shot but since anything else ended up in both being kicked a long shot was all she had.
I didn't watch the first two series of Traitors because I assumed it was fake/curated. I got well into this series, and I'm glad it's over. I won't be back for series 4. I can't work out how fake it is. Listening to people discussing it, who fully believe (know) it to be real, is a weird experience. People believe it must be real because it could be. Why fake something that could be achieved for real. But I view it as a producer might. It's too fragile. Linda turning her head in episode 1, outing herself as a Traitor. But managing to survive for several episodes. It probably isn't 100% acted, but I'm sure that it is curated to some extent.
28:24 Unfortunately Richard you are wrong. I’ve worked on several BBC and ITV dramas and only two have had an intimacy coordinator and that is because they had sex scenes not kissing scenes.
Good to see Richard bring up the disgraceful Henry handball.
Frankie and Charlotte were only doomeed because neither of them seemed to realise Frankie saying anything would ruin both of their games. Best shot was to work together for a time being.
I hope they keep the seer power for at least the next game, because it will be interesting seeing people trying to avoid getting it.
Can't believe Leanne was allowed to stay in the game being the anti-intellectual bully she is (and over emotional Livi). Smartest players (Dan, Alexander) had been eliminated by bullies and Jake was the only one who deserved to win in the end.
As someone who doesn't watch the traiters and all I really know is there are faithful s and traitors the fact that you thought a "Seer" would be hard to explain is the most insane thing you have said 😂
This is what happens when you mess with a perfect formula because you think it needs to be kept fresh. Traitors was perfection last year, can't see it ever beaten. Harry was a brilliant winner, the last five minutes of that show was worthy of a Hollywood script writer. The tension was top notch. The seer twist this year was a disaster. It ruined the final. On what planet should a traitor's identity be handed to a faithful !!! Ridiculous. It was badly thought out. Hope they do better next year.
The main problem with The Traitors is that nobody has anything to go on, so it’s all just boring, arbitrary “you scratched your chin in a funny way” or “Dunno, no idea, just a hunch” rationalisations.
The missions are so dull; the audience really doesn’t care whether you add £100 or £500 to a meaningless figure. There just isn’t any tension there and sadly that takes up the most running time.
The solution of course, which I still can’t believe the creators have missed, is to fix the prize fund and make the missions pass/fail affairs with failure meaning the Traitors may murder. That’s it. Simple. Tense missions, a dramatic clash of incentivises, the traitors trying to sabotage the missions without breaking their cover, and loads of (mis)information for the faithful as they point the finger at anyone who made a mistake, didn’t pull their weight or wasn’t good enough.
As it is, the missions are just this side quest nobody cares about, and none of the contestants have anything to go on, which makes it a total random fest.
Oh and don’t get me started on the seer. Charlotte should sue the show for how badly the producers stitched her up in such a clear attempt to ensure no traitors made it to the final and won it again!
I don't think the creators missed that angle on missions. It's the fact that, that is already the premise of another show, The Mole.
I LOVE you guys, but have to say the whole brew dog discussion was just mean. He wants something and is going for it, not my cup of tea but using your position to publicly ridicule him because he's not as cool as you, is not cool.
This 'seer ruined the final' comment has been thrown around a lot but I don't think it would have played out that differently without it. Charlotte had already been too short-sighted in her plan and turning on Freddie so quickly meant he'd already sowed doubts about her - remember that's why Frankie picked her in the first place! Those doubts would have been there regardless. If anything, the person this twist hurt was Frankie herself, which adds an interesting element to the show - the seer may actually be a curse to whoever gets it instead of a blessing
Goodness why spend so much time talking about James Watt ? The introduction of the Seer in Traitors ruined the ending for me . I agree it didn’t work. Yes it was a bit nasty. Both people understandably distressed and desperate.
Re: James Watt. It’s a public service as far as I’m concerned. Someone needs to keep an eye on that one
@ I get what you mean…TBH he wasn’t on my radar until I saw this conversation and now he is…it’s just annoying that such people get so much attention, but as you say, it’s important that they are ‘kept an eye on’
on the traitors; the best game was for Frankie as the seeer would have been to say they were both faithfuls; and not out charlotte as a traitor. but knowing this frankie could have in the final played it out and won.
Traitors is so addictive. I came late to the show. There is no doubt the show format is deeply flawed but somehow it still has the ability to draw the viewer in and get them hooked. Of course the casting is vital and it is refreshing to have intelligent contestants rather than the trashy brain dead botoxed who speak in grunts and garbled English and spend their lives jumping from one reality show to the next.
Claudia is the cherry on top- she brings that special sauce that makes it all so wonderful.
The US celebrity version is much more brash and cutthroat and is played very differently. As a Scot I love Alan Cumming but I cannot stand the persona presented on the show. It's an American construct of a Highland Laird and it fails completely- there are far more references to mid European Barrons that once were a staple of 60s TV shows like The Saint. I'm amazed that Alan goes along with it.
I certainly enjoy the slight changes made each series to keep things fresh. I wonder how long before the show overstays its welcome?
In the Blake Lively discussion you did not mention any of the released unredacted messages that counter most of Blake Lively's redacted messages and accusations. I think its important you mention them and show them as you both seemed to be very one sided on Blake Livelys side.
When you say “it is Important” you seriously overstate the extend to which we care what actually happened.
No-one cares
They are just addressing it as a smear campaign and completely ignoring the Lively-Reynolds attempt to take over the movie and Franchise
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. They are missing most of the story. It's almost like Marina doesn't want to piss off WME and the Hollywood elite... 👀
I didn't understand the death match game and the rules, why would a traitor be part of that game if there was a chance you could be sent home?
A traitor wouldn't have been sent home if they lost. If it got down to them and a faithful playing that game, then the traitor would stand up and say 'you're murdered' then go back to the castle saying they are a faithful. As the players had to leave as soon as they lost then they wouldnt't know any better either.
The producers were careful to make sure that a traitor wasn't part of the game. The players were told there might be a traitor playing, so when it came to the last two players there was a chance one would be the traitor (and the other player would be murdered without playing the last round).