Where did we discover it - or where did we invent it - i think it's an invention - it was not hidden under a rock nor it was available for all others to see or find - it took quite some time to make math part of a larger population - although it was teached since quite some time - like algebra - one can discover a country - not invent it - and if you invent it.. does it really exist? - or is it a construct of conception? mind testing: was the lightbulb discovered or invented ? was lightning discovered or invented ? was french kissing discovered or invented ?
@@disturbedzmoose1485 From that perspective yes, you're right. But from another perspective - similar to yours but more thoroughly -: the questions are only built on discoveries (either discovered from senses or mechanics) so we actually discover both (if we took your way of seeing the base for the thing - that is may be called "discovered" or "invented" -, as if we will call the thing dicovered/invented according to its base) And we invent the way that answers are said by, not the answers themselves
@Mushtaba Ibrahimi mathematicas is a big part of science and science does question itself its the point to learn new things we must question our own beliefs
And from mathematics to science everything constitutes of art. Geometry, physics, chemistry , numbers biology, you - me and basically all physical clues in the matrix with respect to the real reality
It depends on what you interpret "mathematics" as. If you mean the language, concepts and symbols we use to model the world around us, then it is invented. If you mean the inherent nature of numbers and forms in the world, then it is discovered. An alien civilization would most likely have a different system of mathematics that would look foreign to us, but ultimately the underlying concepts and inherent nature of their system would be the same.
indeed. The way we count is invented. Not only the symbols, but the fact that we count in an additive way is not a given. We could as well count logarithmical (e.g. to count mass, you can put powder on a 2-armed scale and add the left side to the right side as you count up by one. This would turn 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 into 1, 2, 3, 4. We find additive counting easier, but perhaps an alien would find multiplying or other conversions easier, especially when they're use to count higher numbers (e.g. amount of sugar molecules in the cornflakes). In the end, we hopefully both end up with the same surface area of a sphere with certain diameter, but probably use completely different ways to calculate it. I think my answer would be that we discover natural phenomenons using mathematics, which we invented. Just the fact that the basics of Maths starts with Axiomas that we have to believe to be true proves for me that Maths is an invention. The fact that it is really good at predicting real life situation is only proof of the refinement of out Maths. There is still so much we can't explain with the models we currently have. Perhaps we will never explain them because there is a fundamental flaw somewhere in the root of our math system, although I'm sure there would be ways to circumvent it. Like fictional numbers are imo not a discovery, but an invention to tackle an unexplainable phenomenon. The cases in this video are just rare example where the theory came before the practicality.
That was a fantastic position that you put forth with absolutely no sarcasm intended I almost thought that it was me at first that wrote a piece on this and forgot until I saw your profile picture... Very awesome much props . Nathan Barnes: Intellectual Physics
@@poro3246 but the area of the circle will be pi times the radius squared. Maybe they use another system, maybe their addition is logaritmic and maybe the dont even have a number to represent it, but the area is the area, and in their system it will have the same properties that it has in ours
I feel like mathematics is a language to describe things. The language is made up but, just like having a word for something can make it easier to understand, math can make all the patterns in our universe clearer.
That is the way I always though about it. The sky was blue long before we had a way of describing it and 1+1 was 2 long before we had a way of describing it
I agree. Also math is definitely an invention because if we went back in time math could've been created in very different ways. We just happened to invent it in the one we use today, just like not all languages were constructed in the same way or use the same sounds
Ok don't think you understand math is the pattern it dosent make it easier to understand it just makes it so we can, basically math is the real world its not interpreting it
Mathematics is of, representations and systems of real and imaginary things, and to create representations and systems of real and imaginary things to create simulations of real and imaginary things. We can simplify real complex phenomenons in the universe to mathematical equations, such as the nature of the phenomenon of gravitation simplified to less than 20 characters of text. It is simple, but not necessarily easy, to describe a real or imaginary thing in mathematics. In some of the time, if not in most of the time, the realization of the real or imaginary thing is especially difficult.
Mathematics require logic of counting with the guide from scientific observations. That is why many geniuses came up with methods and symbols to describe their findings.
+StealingYourWifiNShit Truly beautiful deep thinking philosophy about math, But in reality if we see the properties of Math as the definition defines (a concept of quantity) couldn't have came from the Universe, knowing that the universe keeps changing every time, in fact it's growing larger and expanding itself... Something as accurate as math couldn't be made from something that keeps changing otherwise the properties of math would be negated as math as we know it, and math at some point should have evolved, or change, But we all know math does not evolve, and does not changes, Therefore math couldn't came from the Universe in which it negates the properties of Math itself. So in reality the question still surfaces... Who created math, If Math is man-made, Why is it a mere concept and not a reality we can reach? We can only plot it in formulas, and represent it in numbers... But it's not there in our reality to be touched, nor reached by our reality. I mean, it's there we can use it, But, yet again... Who created math? ... Who created the properties of Fractals for example, If a fractal was man-made (if we keep falling under the premise that Math is man-made), we should have seen the original author somewhere in textbooks all across schools and universities, Yet, there is no name for such author, Fractals were discovered, such as math was discovered. This proves that Math was not man made, yet to be invented by mankind, How could a finite mind, understand such an infinite structure of what it is a Fractal, let alone create it, Simply it doesn't! A human mind could have never created such thing as a Fractal, but yet it had to be discovered.
Math is like a language used to describe things that already exist. Math wouldn't even have been invented if it weren't describing something already there that works.
I asked my math teacher this very question when I started taking calculus for an engineering degree because I was so blown away by the way the natural world around us could be described mathematically. I guess it is still an open question, but I enjoyed your brief video explanation anyway.
@@pray4us955 some countries don't take calculus unless you want to. In Australia you don't do calculus until year 11 and even then you need to choose at least Advanced Mathematics to learn it. Standard Mathematics doesn't learn it
I find as I dive deeper into harder math, I realise it makes up EVERYTHING around us. The universe and nature IS math, and that is why math is beautiful!
@out_of_earth2467 and even in the American system, you can get away without taking calc. I took both AP calc a and b, but I know people who never took any advanced math classes
Would either of you like help? There is one you can ask and he gives freely without any pain. He is here, where it starts: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of god moved upon the face of the waters. This is a simplified discussion of fluid dynamics. Serously; chaottic maths and string theory all described in a way for anyone, anywhere to completely understand and he is willing to tell you more. For example; would you like to know where Galileo went wrong with turbulence and why Van Gough could only see it in a psychotic episode? He was able to see it when rational too, for he had planned to get the easel set up and had the foresight to mix the colours ready for the morning light. It was only that he never could put it into words - presumably never having thought to get rational help from above. But it is available to you.
I just got high and discovered a random math formula and tripping out about the whole experience is what brought me here. The world is all making sense now, and to think I was horrible at math in school. I’m a filmmaker. Everything material is related and math is a language used to explore how they relate.
Here’s a question what came first; math or the matter of the Big Bang? If you say math, because the odds of all the matter coming together even slightly wrong means the universe wouldn’t exist means that you now know only an eternal God could create something like an eternal mathematical language understandable by all.
People invented a system for notating mathematics, but we didn't invent the mathematical properties themselves. It's sort of like how we invented the word "tree," but we didn't invent trees, or how we invented a method for creating and using fire, but we didn't invent fire. Imagine if we arbitrarily decided that pi (technically not a "natural" number) were some other number than what it is, 2.4, for example. Later, you're using this number to calculate how large of a fence you would need to completely enclose a circular yard. The result is that you would fail to completely surround the yard, because pi is what it is, regardless of what we say it is. As for curved surfaces, this does not result in new laws of mathematics, just new variables affecting the outcome of the same mathematics. Angles differ on curved surfaces, because the curve is part of the equation. Compare this scenario: Suppose I say two plus two equals four, then someone says that if the equation only works if the first two were alone. If a third item were present, before the two more were added, the result would be five. This would hardly prove that two plus two equals five in certain cases, because the one extra item would change the starting values. Adding an extra item to an addition problem is not much different from adding an extra curve to a geometry problem. You still use the same math, just with another variable to consider.
NO you have defined the PI =3.14 because you have defined other numbers. If the value of 2 is something else other than just " | | " then you can have a different value for PI.
Shawn Ravenfire blykgod made a valid point. The value of pi didn't have to be 3.14....... had we calibrated our mathematical scale differently. For example, its value would have been entirely different in binary (base 2), duodecimal (base 12), etc. It is quite possible that the whole world would have been using different numbering systems had it not been for the 'invention' of zero, which made numbering system so much easier (it is much more intuitive than using roman numerals, and hence became the standard across the world). Pi is the ratio of circumference of a circle to its diameter. The physical manifestation, the circle itself is real, but the equation of the circle, the concepts of radius, circumference, even the name circle (which has been defined by english, an invented language), are our manner of interpreting the reality. As pointed out in the video, mathematics is extremely efficient in understanding the world, almost to the point where it may seem that it was meant to be the way we understand it now (that it was something predefined and we found it, not invented it). However, mathematics has evolved over years, and it is quite possible for an intelligent species to invent a language which is as highly effective as maths. Also, I don't know what you're trying to prove with the last paragraph.
Tadashi Mori That's basically you saying it's invented.. ( We invented A which lead us to only one possible outcome B. B is therefore a discovered consequence of the invention A)
〈Member's Name Goes Here〉 You may be right, but we can think of it also as only a tool. For example, we take binoculars (tool) and discover new stars. We take a stronger telescope and discover other stars.
Tadashi Mori I would agree with you and say that the universe has mathematical potential just as humans who don't speak yet have linguistic potential. Maths is therefore the communication between the patterns of the universe and our conceptualisation of them.
@@chudchadanstud good point, some extremely basic and vague form of nonArabic-numerical mathematics could of been figured out by some bored Neolithics with certain types of rocks representing values.
I’m just an old country boy from Alabama, and I love this. I wake up at night, thinking about such questions as this video expounds upon. Now I don’t feel so odd.
The properties of the universe have always existed since the beginning of time. We invented the language to interpret those properties into something we can measure and test. If humans didn't exist, those properties would still be here, but wouldn't know (or care) what they are.
FYI, some quantum physicists believe that it takes an observer to "force" an object to exist as a certain state, and energy. If no observer existed to "see" the universe, it might not exist. See also: Schrodinger's Cat, "Spooky happenings at a distance."
@@bcubed72 I know I am replying literally 3 years late here, but that is a misinterpretation of quantum mechanics. An "Observation" in quantum mechanics does not mean an observation by a concious observer, but rather an interaction from any other particle to collapse the probability function consisting of multiple possible states (eigenstates) into one. See the wikipedia page: Wave function collapse.
Math is both a feature of the Universe and a Human Creation, because we humans are part of the universe and even we create it with our conscience (and this conscience is, of course, part of the universe).
My maths professor always used to say: "Math is a language, you have to speak it to get proficient". The more i learned the more I agreed. I think math is a man made thing to accurately describe what we can observe, measure or predict in the universe.
The mathematical truths exist independently of humans, we aren't saying that in math a statement is true - it is true. The mathematical language we use however, is man made.
@@13lizby85yeah that’s why there is a difference between Quantum mechanics and Newtonian mechanics their language describes different things Newtonian sucks at explaining the subatomic world and quantum mechanics can’t effectively describe gravity
Although I know what you mean, you should still change "accurately" with "approximately". Up to now, we did not find any models that accurately describe the universe.
If you believe in a God then it's invented. If you were born after the universe's existence, it's discovered. Just because mankind figured out how to fly an airplane doesn't mean they invented the concept of flying. Ideas existed before man.
Mathematics is the back bone of every Scientific phenomenon. We treat it as a different branch of Science but logically, we can also treat Science as a branch of mathematics. Science contains the words that describe the mathematics we discover in almost anything and everything. Thus, science is the dictionary of mathematics and mathematics is the numerical description of science.
I agree with you.. and we can see this clearly in physics and some of the laws that are used in chemistry and biology.. all these sciences I see expressing mathematics, but experimentally we can to say that they are Visible results of mathematical concepts and rules.. So if mathematics is an immaterial thing in other sciences, it makes it material and its rules can be seen practically (I not mean to write all this but its math the most amazing thing I've learned)
@galalreda8602 if maths is just a language to describe the universe. Could it be that we've translated some "words" wrong? But because we can still communicate(build things like space ships and computers). We overlook this possibility and perhaps restructuring the basics of math could propel us further than we are now. Why is zero so easily accepted as a digit? If we've 'tranlated' maths wrong, zero could be like a mathematical crutch to justify the blindspot in how we view maths and the universe. Like a cave man thinking only sticks and rocks can make fire, just because they've never seen an alternative and they're comfortable believing that fire can't be made any other way coz the current way 'works'.
“Numbers don't lie, sir. Politics, poetry, promises - those are lies! Numbers are as close as we get to the handwriting of God”. - Herman Gottlieb, Pacific rim
can someone just appreciate those genius minds. I still don't understand how one human began with the concept of math and then a million other followed and today all we do is try to understand the mind of every human who made up math. I can't even understand my mind!
This is a great overview of both sides. I find this subject fascinating, as it is a window into a facet of reality that seems to be beyond our perception.
Because math rules the works of the universe, we just discover math formulaes to translate its works to our understanding. Math just exist, we just try to understand it
We discovered Math's patterns just like nature and out of curiosity to understand and use it we invented numbers, theories and equations which developed into a foundation of every invention as time goes on 😊
I believe physics is just a section of math( applied math). However there is pure maths such as (abstract algebra) that has almost no application to physics or any other science
Most mathematicians don't care about physics; they're developing mathematics for the sake of itself. Besides there are many mathematical concepts which are developed with little to zero application in the real world. For example the Lebesgue integral was developed to solve the problem that the Riemann integral can't integrate over all measurable spaces. However as far as I know, this shortcoming of the Riemann integral presents no problems in physics. That is, the Lebesgue integral was developed to solve a problem that exists in mathematics but not in physics.
Yeah, in the same way language was invented by humans math was also invented by humans. The idea of math wouldn't be there without humans. But it'd still be present. Just with a different name. No name. A fox knows that two rocks is two rocks and one rock is one rock but it won't slide two rocks together and start speaking to its other friends and saying "MATH!" because it was an idea invented by humans. It still exists, but it isn't math. It's just the world.
The fact that animals can count, therefore can have some sort of quantity representation and basic arithmetics, is a sign that math is more discovered than invented.
@@Ameer4li I know I'm late to this, but it made me think of how when a hamster has more than 4 kids, it eats the other kids, so it would only take care of 4, so it kind of proves that animals count, idk if this proves anything, but it really got me thinking about this
I think this is right: 1:30, "Mathematics is thus an invented logic exercize. With no existence outside mankind's conscious thought. A language of abstract relationships. Based on patterns discerned by brains. Built to use those patterns to invent a useful but artificial order from chaos." Leopold Kronike
Then, as the latter part of the video describes, how is it that pure math developed by humans with no connection or influence from outside observation then turns out to, often decades or centuries later, describe a fundamental fact of how the universe works? If math is merely invented, then that shouldn't happen. And yet it has happened dozens of times.
Silverizael But we aren't talking about the way that universe works. I mean, as many people here claims, math as the numbers and abstract concepts of what human brain describes, like the ''1'' symbol and everything else, is invented by humans, the ''language'' to understand it or give it a sense. And ''math'' (Because it has no name, nor it should be called ''something'' rather than the way that universe works, and even this concept isn't, nor any concept will ever be correct, as it is a human brain invention) as the way that universe may work or works, yes, it's discovered with time, and 1+1=2 (note this is an invention [the symbols]) will be always like that in the ''laws'' of the universe. So we can say math is invented by humans as a way to translate the universal ''math''.
joel13598 Okay, but that's not what this video is discussing. This is discussing whether that "universal math" is something that exists outside of human perception.
Silverizael Not as we perceive it or understand it, but it should, and if not, then gravity theory should be rejected as there's no '''forces'' or ''universal math'' ruling the universe.
Mathematics is a human made tool to analyse, understand, order and to interpret the things we see or think off. Numbers and equations don't exist. It's just in equations we use abstract variables and we use symbols (operations) to discern the relationship between the variables.Numbers allow us to have some way of fitting in values to find answers. If there are 5 trees and no humans then there are still 5 trees but no humans to come along with symbols, sounds or other forms of communication to express them.
Malachi Quinn :P In the end I suppose it doesn't matter really. We'll still be drifting through space and time fighting petty wars and making miraculous discoveries - but still ignorant of the truths we could not know.
For me, we just discovered those deep patterns and symmetry in the universe. And it deponds mostly on logic and the three-dimension space. But when we tried to represent 5,6...even 11 dimensions space we had to use a different math a different pattern. We invented the language of math (Diagrams, symbols,) Example, E=mc2 We didn't invent the equality and can not change it in this equation, but we discovered this pattern, probability,geometry and trignomotery......etc. Those are fundamental patterns which form the structure of three-dimentinal space.
most likly they have because it's a nice tool. But this doesn't proof that nature/the universe is mathematically. It only shows that intelligent life uses abstract tools to accomplish something
Wischenbart Christian Depends, if they come across the exact same logical structures, especially for spaces that don't actually seem to exist anywhere, I'd say that's a case for something more fundamental. Even more so if their brain structures are mark ably different. And if not, it would seem mathematics is tied to practicality... which would be very sad indeed.
Mathematics is nothing more than a language used to describe natural and unnatural phenomena. It's quite possibly the greatest contribution from humanity.
Un ejemplo muy representativo a la respuesta que se quiere llegar sería el siguiente: Cuando una persona conoce a otra y estas dos no hablan el mismo idioma buscan la manera de comunicarse de tal forma que con el tiempo van entendiendo lo que la una le quiere decir a la otra. La necesidad de poder comunicarse hizo que estas dos personas inventaran o crearan una forma abstracta de comunicación, que con el tiempo se va puliendo y haciéndose más entendible para ambas. Una vez que la comunicación ya no es el problema, se buscará representar esa comunicación. La invención de las matemáticas es como cualquier otro intento del humano por interpretar el comportamiento de lo hay a nuestro alrededor, de darle un representación gráfica y de poder tener un sistema con el que se puedan hacer calculos más allá de nuestra imaginación. Obviamente si los humanos no existieramos tampoco habría existencia de las matemáticas.
@@carlosraventosprieto2065yes but the theorem is man made and the triangle in it of itself is not math yes it has its properties that would exist regardless of human inquiry but it’s mathematics lies in the description that’s the math part and that part is man made
For the last question, I want people who believe that while quantities exist (something I wholeheartedly agree with) to remember that units do not. Units are a human invention. It requires agreeing on when to separate one thing from another.
In my opinion, mathematics is an invented system and the reason it has so many practical applications in the real world is that the axioms that define it are based on common-sense observations that appear true in nature, and therefore it is expected that the conclusions that are drawn from it should also have real-world applications.
"If there's a NUMBER OF TREES IN A FOREST, but no one is there to count them, does that number exist?..." You just answered your own question by saying if there's a number of trees in the forest. Yes.
Say that to the engineers and mathematicians that allowed us to sail the Atlantic Ocean or send a man to space or to precisely calculate the distance between the earth and the moon. Maths is presented in a way that's comprehensible for humans but the meaning and concepts behind the written numbers have genuine value
math and its fundimentals have existed for all time, but numbers and math as we know them were invented to identify it, like words were invented to identify objects and ideas.
Winson Hui Mathematics isn't just 1 or 2 or 3,4..meaning the symbols which we use to represent amount, but it is the fact/relation that 4 things can be grouped into two each containing 2 of those things. above fact doesn't depend on whether we exist to witness it or not..
Isn't it the same with language? I could also ask whether there is a tree, if there is no one who could call it a tree. The number of trees is just an enhanced description of the scenario. There are not so much different math languages, but there are a few. The romans had their own numbers, we have decimal, binary and hexadecimal systems, etc. As a software developer I'm dealing daily with describing or defining things, using a mix of english, my native language, different programming or markup languages and of course also math.
@@axellegazier5542 It does come from a TV show! - Big Bang Theory, quoting Penny's boyfriend Zach.... I'm impressed that you picked up on that. You must be as big a geek as me 😅
Andrew wiles once said that working through mathematical proofs is like fending your way through hedges after hedges. Only at the end of the proof do you discover that it was already laid out as a beautiful pristine garden. Thats what I believe maths to be, a pristine garden.
For me, its all of his descriptions. We DISCOVERED it as a UNIVERSAL TRUTH/DIVINE CREATION and expressed it using INVENTED languages and ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCTED symbols which are HUMAN PRODUCED.
It depends on what we call mathematics. I like to separate the mathematics from the structure we use to describe it. Let me call those structures notation. We construct new notations all the time. In this line of thought, different notations are different languages, but mathematics would be discovered. The difference centers around, unlike human languages, notations have their way to construct consistent new terms from the previous ones. In doing that, we discover new mathematics. In languages one usually invent something new then it is named. Different notations, as happen with languages, can be split becoming different dialects, sometimes mutually intelligible, sometimes not. In this fashion, sometimes one needs to borrow words from another language/notation to complete one's ideas, sometime one adapts those words to our own language/notation. And thus, the work of Burbaki's would be nothing but aiming to establish a self consistent language that can grow without borrowing from other.
In my opinion math is a language invented used to describe and explain the shape of the universe, we invented math and by some mysterious luck it turned out to lead us to discover how our world works
We did not discover Math, we invented it. It's a language we made up to understand things around us, discover solutions that will answer a lot of our problems.
We invented the symbols - not the underlying concept of math. Math exists with or without us. If math didn't exist without humans the universe would fall apart.. therefore, math exists as an inherent and inseparable property of the universe.
Mathematics is the language we use to describe the phenomena around us. The language is invented but the phenomena is discovered. The phenomena is subject to biases in our senses, though, so Leopold Kronecker does still have a point
Mathematics is the way a human can quantify natural processes that would exist with or without humans. The math existed, we simply use symbols to interpret it.
Both. Invented, as the language of recognizing a symbol (1) to mean (definition: one, singular), and so on. But also discovered, because whether we have the language to describe 2,000 as the number of trees in a forest or not, the concept that number describes isn't going to change randomly, with trees blinking in and out of existence based on the abstract concept of a nonexistent number. It will have exactly 2,000 trees in the forest whether we have discovered the language to express the concept of 2,000 or not.
Math is something that we discovered in the relationships of various things, but its expression, in the form of numbers and symbols (which I call the notation) is quite certainly a human invention. 2+2=4 is the expression of a relationship of some objects. That relationship, however, holds across a very great number of kinds of objects. Two apples and (or plus) two apples equals four apples, or doughnuts, or atoms, or stars, or whatever. The relationship holds. That is a nutshell way of expressing the definition of what we call math.
Why does the information have to be read/interpreted in order for it to exist? A message in a bottle is still a message. It doesn't matter if nobody is around to count the trees. There is still a discrete number of them at any given time.
Gecko Gold In that case, the word "prove" does not apply here. If nobody observes it, it cannot be proved. However, we can still use logic. For example: Last time I looked, my kitchen table was behind me. Is it *still* behind me? According to your logic, we don't know whether or not my kitchen table is behind me because I'm not staring at it. See the failure in your reasoning?
It's exactly as the names. Trees don't have the name of "trees", we call them like these so we can communicate. In these case we use numbers so we can function our lifestyle and many forms and ways. Everything excises in our minds
Was math invented or discovered? Math is useful in daily life and helps us with inventing new technologies. Therefore, many people wonder if math was invented or discovered. While some people might think that math was invented because math would exist if humans weren't there to think about it. I feel that math was discovered, because the math is still there waiting for people to discover it and describe it in their own language. Take the forest as an example. If there are an amount of trees in a forest but there are no one counting it, does that mean the trees don't exist? No, the amount of trees are still there. Math is still there waiting for someone to discover it. Another reason why I think math was discovered is because math is a pattern in nature. For example, the Fibonacci sequence was discovered in so many different plants and animals. Another example is geometry, shapes are commonly found in the nature, by measuring and looking at the shapes we discovered many properties about them and we use numbers and symbols to describe what we had discovered. Finally, math is the basic principle of the universe. The universe is physical, and we use math to explain physics. For example, the Earth is orbiting the Sun, but at what speed? Even if humans weren't there to ask this question, the answer is already hidden in the universe. In short, math was discovered and it is always there even if humans never existed. Math is a pattern in the nature and is the basic principle of the universe. Therefore, I believe that math was discovered.
ataarono well it in fact doesn't stink simply because if in fact that fart had occurred then there would have been a person there to smell it. good day.
I'd say mathematicians are the linguists of science. Fields like physics and chemistry are no more than languages, used to describe and understand the world in order to give future generations something to work with. Mathematics is what tells us the rules of these languages by inventing a language of its own. An example: gravity. It's definetly a thing but that's pretty much all physics alone can tell us. Using mathematics we can get a better insight into how it works. Or, to give an easier example: The word tree. It describes something real. Here the English language works like physics. It can tell you about something is real, but that's it. That's where linguistics hit. Now we can tell or find out, how the word is pronounced and where it comes from. So linguistic can tell us about more details. So do maths. But neither nor are real. They are human inventions helping us in order to get a better understanding of something that describes something real. If no human had ever invented mathematics our DNA would still be formed in the same way and a rectangular triangle would still have the same proportions. We just wouldn't know and have no option to find out. Mathematics works so wonderful because it only works by very few basic laws which are man made. But everything else is just wonderful coincidences which had to happen because, if you have unlimited options, there will be one thing that describes just what you need to describe. It's like being surprised because your phone number is part of Pi. Of course it is, that's how infinity works.
If it is a natural language of the universe, it's pretty cool that humans were able to find it everywhere in nature and understand it as well as we do!
Very interesting. Vsauce gave a brief set of comments about this when they were talking about infinites that are larger than other infinites. Mathematics is a naturally occurring phenomenon that is discovered, but can be arbitrarily defined, ordered, patterned, and created in an attempt to further understand it. If I say that the letter J will represent every number which repeats itself 8 times as a digit in the lowest 100 prime numbers, I have created a mathematical tool. What I discover about the universe already existed, but the tool did not. I created it.
the fact that numbers or quantities are seen in nature doesn't mean that quantity is being expressed by nature in the same way man does, maybe nature hides a much different code behind presence but it reflects as numbers in mankinds eye math is a way to tell natural statements but its not the same way nature uses...
My point is that the tools used to explain naturally occurring mathematical phenomena are created. Therefore mathematics is both naturally occurring and created depending on how you define it. Five whole apples cannot be equally decided into groups other than 1 and 5. This is naturally occurring phenomenon and a man-made tool known as Prime Numbers. That's my point.
El final, la pregunta Zen, es perfecta para afirmar o rebatir el tema. Como materialista diría que esos árboles existen independientemente de cualquier otro ser vivo allí presente y, además, existen en un orden y cantidad específicas según se lo permite la naturaleza. *_La matemática se descubre_** porque extraemos de la realidad **_fenómenos y hechos observables_** y, aunque seamos nosotros quienes **_contamos, medimos y ordenamos_** según nuestra necesidad y criterio, **_esas cosas existen independientes de nosotros_** y es lo que **_nos permite crear esta ciencia y el lenguaje que la describe_** y **_hacer abstracción de la misma realidad._*
Seeing as how math is a languages used to describe things in terms of count and measure... it's invented. You discover a phenomenon, and invent math to explain it to others. Sometimes math that is just there proves useful elsewhere but that's happenstance.
+Meep “the” Changeling If maths is required to explain a discovered phenomenon, wouldn't this math be sort of a characteristic of this phenomenon, therefore it being present in nature and discovered as well? I don't have a solid opinion on this. I'm not knowledgeable enough, but I do think it can't ever be answered so simply.
Is the hammer a tool that is discovered or invented? It's obviously invented. But on the other hand it's simply a bunch of materials, that predates the hammer, that was put together in an orderly fashion.
Is the number discovered or invented? The number was created by Arabs and Indians but is used to represent a quantifiable concept. Numbers are just our way of understanding patterns and our best tool ever. With numbers we can find the exact distance between the earth and the moon in a measurement that we can understand. Kepler's law wasn't invented. It was discovered. But Kepler arranged this discovery in a formula that is capable of being interpreted by humans. The numbers represent something genuine which would be incomprehensible without numbers. Mathematics is discovered AND invented. We invented the tools to discover maths by inventing numbers
I think of it like this. Was fire invented or discovered? I say kinda both, human language is a social construct, that’s the malleable part of this. The distinction between invention and discovery in the first place.
I think this question bares on a particular problem with hard materialism, (only material things enjoy full ontological status). Mathmatics, being non material but also indispensable in describing and predicticting the behavior of material things, AND doing an amazing job doing so, seems to suggest that numbers, as well as mathmatical functions, MUST be real. It spooks out the materialists I think.😊
Humans are evolved in the image of the universe. It is not surprising that human inventions are consistent with the functioning of the universe. Eugene Wigner was mistaken.
We discovered math, but we invented numbers and symbols to understand them
Exactly. People don't appreciate the difference.
great description awesome thank you.
true
Where did we discover it - or where did we invent it - i think it's an invention - it was not hidden under a rock
nor it was available for all others to see or find - it took quite some time to make math part of a larger population - although it was teached since quite some time - like algebra -
one can discover a country - not invent it - and if you invent it..
does it really exist? - or is it a construct of conception?
mind testing:
was the lightbulb discovered or invented ?
was lightning discovered or invented ?
was french kissing discovered or invented ?
herauthon four invented , discovered , invented
Best answer I've heard: The questions are invented, the answers are discovered
Totally true lol 😂😂😂
But what did that added to your acknowledge? it's a common claim which didn't boost any opinion (and is always true😂😂)
Or so we think
@@dillo1594 *Vsauce music intensifies through the roof*
But in math, answers are only produced through the creation of questions, so we actually create both
@@disturbedzmoose1485 From that perspective yes, you're right. But from another perspective - similar to yours but more thoroughly -: the questions are only built on discoveries (either discovered from senses or mechanics) so we actually discover both (if we took your way of seeing the base for the thing - that is may be called "discovered" or "invented" -, as if we will call the thing dicovered/invented according to its base)
And we invent the way that answers are said by, not the answers themselves
This is why I like science. It never hesitate to question even itself.
This is why every subjects are great . No matter how you think every subjects are full of questions..
@Mushtaba Ibrahimi mathematicas is a big part of science and science does question itself its the point to learn new things we must question our own beliefs
And from mathematics to science everything constitutes of art. Geometry, physics, chemistry , numbers biology, you - me and basically all physical clues in the matrix with respect to the real reality
Unless you're Dr Fauci, the embodiment of science itself. (Sarcasm)
Does it never hesitate to question itself if it never hesitates to do it?
It depends on what you interpret "mathematics" as. If you mean the language, concepts and symbols we use to model the world around us, then it is invented. If you mean the inherent nature of numbers and forms in the world, then it is discovered. An alien civilization would most likely have a different system of mathematics that would look foreign to us, but ultimately the underlying concepts and inherent nature of their system would be the same.
This is exactly what I think it is
indeed. The way we count is invented. Not only the symbols, but the fact that we count in an additive way is not a given. We could as well count logarithmical (e.g. to count mass, you can put powder on a 2-armed scale and add the left side to the right side as you count up by one. This would turn 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 into 1, 2, 3, 4. We find additive counting easier, but perhaps an alien would find multiplying or other conversions easier, especially when they're use to count higher numbers (e.g. amount of sugar molecules in the cornflakes). In the end, we hopefully both end up with the same surface area of a sphere with certain diameter, but probably use completely different ways to calculate it. I think my answer would be that we discover natural phenomenons using mathematics, which we invented. Just the fact that the basics of Maths starts with Axiomas that we have to believe to be true proves for me that Maths is an invention. The fact that it is really good at predicting real life situation is only proof of the refinement of out Maths. There is still so much we can't explain with the models we currently have. Perhaps we will never explain them because there is a fundamental flaw somewhere in the root of our math system, although I'm sure there would be ways to circumvent it. Like fictional numbers are imo not a discovery, but an invention to tackle an unexplainable phenomenon. The cases in this video are just rare example where the theory came before the practicality.
@@poro3246 you just blew my mind bro
That was a fantastic position that you put forth with absolutely no sarcasm intended I almost thought that it was me at first that wrote a piece on this and forgot until I saw your profile picture... Very awesome much props .
Nathan Barnes: Intellectual Physics
@@poro3246 but the area of the circle will be pi times the radius squared. Maybe they use another system, maybe their addition is logaritmic and maybe the dont even have a number to represent it, but the area is the area, and in their system it will have the same properties that it has in ours
I feel like mathematics is a language to describe things. The language is made up but, just like having a word for something can make it easier to understand, math can make all the patterns in our universe clearer.
ohh i like this explanation
That is the way I always though about it.
The sky was blue long before we had a way of describing it and 1+1 was 2 long before we had a way of describing it
Definitely!
I agree. Also math is definitely an invention because if we went back in time math could've been created in very different ways. We just happened to invent it in the one we use today, just like not all languages were constructed in the same way or use the same sounds
Ok don't think you understand math is the pattern it dosent make it easier to understand it just makes it so we can, basically math is the real world its not interpreting it
My basic two cents: Mathematical principles are discovered but we invent ways to understand them.
BigBoss I c what you did there
What am I? That's the question.
MinuteRiddles An exceptional arrangement of atoms I suppose?
BigBoss
I agree with your answer
I agree with you BigBoss
I love how everybody suddenly becomes philosopers after watching a 5 minute youtube video
Any discipline stems from natural human tendencies when their potential has been seen.
I love how much weight your opinion brings into the discussion ;)
That's how deep these videos are
Hats off to Ted ed!
I suddenly becomes philosophers after I fart, got problem?
*philosoapers*
To this day I still can’t wrap my head around how geniuses used mathematics to learn things about science and the universe.
Mathematics is of, representations and systems of real and imaginary things, and to create representations and systems of real and imaginary things to create simulations of real and imaginary things. We can simplify real complex phenomenons in the universe to mathematical equations, such as the nature of the phenomenon of gravitation simplified to less than 20 characters of text.
It is simple, but not necessarily easy, to describe a real or imaginary thing in mathematics. In some of the time, if not in most of the time, the realization of the real or imaginary thing is especially difficult.
Mathematics require logic of counting with the guide from scientific observations. That is why many geniuses came up with methods and symbols to describe their findings.
They both follow laws
I can
@@EliasRiveraReal k
maths is the logic of the universe translated into a form that humans can understand.
+Sean LZX my understanding as well
that's deep and beautiful! ;-)
+StealingYourWifiNShit Truly beautiful deep thinking philosophy about math, But in reality if we see the properties of Math as the definition defines (a concept of quantity) couldn't have came from the Universe, knowing that the universe keeps changing every time, in fact it's growing larger and expanding itself... Something as accurate as math couldn't be made from something that keeps changing otherwise the properties of math would be negated as math as we know it, and math at some point should have evolved, or change, But we all know math does not evolve, and does not changes, Therefore math couldn't came from the Universe in which it negates the properties of Math itself. So in reality the question still surfaces... Who created math, If Math is man-made, Why is it a mere concept and not a reality we can reach? We can only plot it in formulas, and represent it in numbers... But it's not there in our reality to be touched, nor reached by our reality. I mean, it's there we can use it, But, yet again... Who created math? ... Who created the properties of Fractals for example, If a fractal was man-made (if we keep falling under the premise that Math is man-made), we should have seen the original author somewhere in textbooks all across schools and universities, Yet, there is no name for such author, Fractals were discovered, such as math was discovered. This proves that Math was not man made, yet to be invented by mankind, How could a finite mind, understand such an infinite structure of what it is a Fractal, let alone create it, Simply it doesn't! A human mind could have never created such thing as a Fractal, but yet it had to be discovered.
+StealingYourWifiNShit poetic :)
+Patrick Vp (14/20) x 100 is not 70%. It is 70. 14/(20 x 100) also isn't 70%. It is 0.007 which equals 0.7%.
Maths is fun when you know what you're doing.
there is the problem i never know what i'm doing :(
"maths"? Ugh, you must be a brit..
more like its fun when people struggle to find x by using a whole sheet of paper. #MathLivesMatter
LesMiserables999 does it seriously matter?
yes. deeply.
Math is like a language used to describe things that already exist. Math wouldn't even have been invented if it weren't describing something already there that works.
i like where youre going with that.
*But language wasn't invented until humans thought of it.*
So you could say math was invented and that it was always there with your comment.
Saying that mathematics is a language is like saying that the words of a language _are_ the concepts they represent itself. That's not how it works.
math uses symbols and labels so we can get others to understand a concept. I think language fits. its not perfect but it was a good start.
XΣN
I agree with you.
Clearly, if this was so, we'd have one universal language.
I asked my math teacher this very question when I started taking calculus for an engineering degree because I was so blown away by the way the natural world around us could be described mathematically. I guess it is still an open question, but I enjoyed your brief video explanation anyway.
You didn't take calculus in high school?
@@pray4us955 some countries don't take calculus unless you want to. In Australia you don't do calculus until year 11 and even then you need to choose at least Advanced Mathematics to learn it. Standard Mathematics doesn't learn it
I find as I dive deeper into harder math, I realise it makes up EVERYTHING around us. The universe and nature IS math, and that is why math is beautiful!
@@pray4us955Not everyone has the privileged american education system
@out_of_earth2467 and even in the American system, you can get away without taking calc. I took both AP calc a and b, but I know people who never took any advanced math classes
its invented to keep me from finishing college within 4 yrs if ever.
+Commander Erik hahaha, the same here , i am studying math at college and i have failed my first year ;(
ba dum tish!
Would either of you like help?
There is one you can ask and he gives freely without any pain. He is here, where it starts:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And
the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of god moved upon the face of the waters.
This is a simplified discussion of fluid dynamics. Serously; chaottic maths and string theory all described in a way for anyone, anywhere to completely understand and he is willing to tell you more. For example; would you like to know where Galileo went wrong with turbulence and why Van Gough could only see it in a psychotic episode?
He was able to see it when rational too, for he had planned to get the easel set up and had the foresight to mix the colours ready for the morning light. It was only that he never could put it into words - presumably never having thought to get rational help from above.
But it is available to you.
Michael McNeil
van Gogh
Commander Erik hilarious and true
Me: reads title...
Me: ok, now I will know if it's invented or discovered.
Video: also asked if it's invented or discovered.
Me:what?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOL
JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA
Har Har
Basically every Ted ed video
"Mathematics is not about numbers, equations, computations, or algorithms: it is about understanding." ~ William Thurston
Means to an end ... math provides peace
@@timetogetit7225 may math bring peace to all and save humanity 🙏
every unique human = life experiences + circumstances + birth. meaning u cant judge someone for the equation that made them.
I just got high and discovered a random math formula and tripping out about the whole experience is what brought me here. The world is all making sense now, and to think I was horrible at math in school. I’m a filmmaker. Everything material is related and math is a language used to explore how they relate.
Could you post the math formula? I love getting stoned and looking at math
Here’s a question what came first; math or the matter of the Big Bang? If you say math, because the odds of all the matter coming together even slightly wrong means the universe wouldn’t exist means that you now know only an eternal God could create something like an eternal mathematical language understandable by all.
Same
People invented a system for notating mathematics, but we didn't invent the mathematical properties themselves. It's sort of like how we invented the word "tree," but we didn't invent trees, or how we invented a method for creating and using fire, but we didn't invent fire.
Imagine if we arbitrarily decided that pi (technically not a "natural" number) were some other number than what it is, 2.4, for example. Later, you're using this number to calculate how large of a fence you would need to completely enclose a circular yard. The result is that you would fail to completely surround the yard, because pi is what it is, regardless of what we say it is.
As for curved surfaces, this does not result in new laws of mathematics, just new variables affecting the outcome of the same mathematics. Angles differ on curved surfaces, because the curve is part of the equation. Compare this scenario: Suppose I say two plus two equals four, then someone says that if the equation only works if the first two were alone. If a third item were present, before the two more were added, the result would be five. This would hardly prove that two plus two equals five in certain cases, because the one extra item would change the starting values. Adding an extra item to an addition problem is not much different from adding an extra curve to a geometry problem. You still use the same math, just with another variable to consider.
BINGO! That's exactly what it is. All those scientists that thought it was invented were fools. You said it exactly right.
At last someone who knows exactly what they're writing about!
NO you have defined the PI =3.14 because you have defined other numbers. If the value of 2 is something else other than just " | | " then you can have a different value for PI.
Shawn Ravenfire
blykgod made a valid point. The value of pi didn't have to be 3.14....... had we calibrated our mathematical scale differently. For example, its value would have been entirely different in binary (base 2), duodecimal (base 12), etc. It is quite possible that the whole world would have been using different numbering systems had it not been for the 'invention' of zero, which made numbering system so much easier (it is much more intuitive than using roman numerals, and hence became the standard across the world).
Pi is the ratio of circumference of a circle to its diameter. The physical manifestation, the circle itself is real, but the equation of the circle, the concepts of radius, circumference, even the name circle (which has been defined by english, an invented language), are our manner of interpreting the reality.
As pointed out in the video, mathematics is extremely efficient in understanding the world, almost to the point where it may seem that it was meant to be the way we understand it now (that it was something predefined and we found it, not invented it). However, mathematics has evolved over years, and it is quite possible for an intelligent species to invent a language which is as highly effective as maths. Also, I don't know what you're trying to prove with the last paragraph.
+Shashwat Chaudhary It would still be the same concept, just different interpretation.
Why not both?
How could it be both?
The math language is created, the results are discovered.
Tadashi Mori That's basically you saying it's invented.. ( We invented A which lead us to only one possible outcome B. B is therefore a discovered consequence of the invention A)
〈Member's Name Goes Here〉 You may be right, but we can think of it also as only a tool. For example, we take binoculars (tool) and discover new stars. We take a stronger telescope and discover other stars.
Tadashi Mori I would agree with you and say that the universe has mathematical potential just as humans who don't speak yet have linguistic potential. Maths is therefore the communication between the patterns of the universe and our conceptualisation of them.
One thing is certain: Math was never dug out of a hole in the middle of a field.
It was dug out from the circumference.
Lmao!!
Are you sureeee...🤔
Are you sure about that? 1 rock + 1rock = 2 rock? Shiny rock is worth more than not so shiny rock.
@@chudchadanstud good point, some extremely basic and vague form of nonArabic-numerical mathematics could of been figured out by some bored Neolithics with certain types of rocks representing values.
I’m just an old country boy from Alabama, and I love this. I wake up at night, thinking about such questions as this video expounds upon. Now I don’t feel so odd.
The properties of the universe have always existed since the beginning of time. We invented the language to interpret those properties into something we can measure and test. If humans didn't exist, those properties would still be here, but wouldn't know (or care) what they are.
If you disagree say why.
FYI, some quantum physicists believe that it takes an observer to "force" an object to exist as a certain state, and energy. If no observer existed to "see" the universe, it might not exist. See also: Schrodinger's Cat, "Spooky happenings at a distance."
bcubed72 I think about that double slit experiment every night before I can fall asleep. There's gotta be a better answer.
those properties may not be quantities though. math at best allows MEASUREMENT, it is not the very nature of the universe.
@@bcubed72 I know I am replying literally 3 years late here, but that is a misinterpretation of quantum mechanics. An "Observation" in quantum mechanics does not mean an observation by a concious observer, but rather an interaction from any other particle to collapse the probability function consisting of multiple possible states (eigenstates) into one. See the wikipedia page: Wave function collapse.
Math is both a feature of the Universe and a Human Creation, because we humans are part of the universe and even we create it with our conscience (and this conscience is, of course, part of the universe).
Maths destroyed millions and billions of life’s.
This may be true, but it is completly trivial, doesn't anwser nothing
I think u meant consciousness. Conscience and consciousness are two different things.
how much more likely is for a universe to create brains that reflect upon itself, than a brain that thinks about a universe.
@@Michael-en7rk And give birth to billions.
I changed my opinion on this subject like 5 times during the video :D
😂😂 same dude
My maths professor always used to say: "Math is a language, you have to speak it to get proficient". The more i learned the more I agreed.
I think math is a man made thing to accurately describe what we can observe, measure or predict in the universe.
The mathematical truths exist independently of humans, we aren't saying that in math a statement is true - it is true. The mathematical language we use however, is man made.
If math is a language, does it have lexical gaps?
@@13lizby85yeah that’s why there is a difference between Quantum mechanics and Newtonian mechanics their language describes different things Newtonian sucks at explaining the subatomic world and quantum mechanics can’t effectively describe gravity
Although I know what you mean, you should still change "accurately" with "approximately". Up to now, we did not find any models that accurately describe the universe.
Conclusion: We don't know. Thanks Ted-Ed
I feel like that's the answer to most questions tho
🤠👍
*Discover*
If you believe in a God then it's invented. If you were born after the universe's existence, it's discovered. Just because mankind figured out how to fly an airplane doesn't mean they invented the concept of flying. Ideas existed before man.
The guy who made this video is actually my real teacher I feel so interesting right now... like I don't even like math but Mr. D just got awesomer.
That's cool! I feel like he'd make math more interesting for me.
oh wow lol, would love him as a teacher
You lucky man
Mr. D, huh?
+Swarnav Parida no.
I am trapped in these Tedx videos. These are really so addictive, I have been saying "ok this is the last video" for probably 40th time.
I have better Einstein pfp
Mathematics is the back bone of every Scientific phenomenon. We treat it as a different branch of Science but logically, we can also treat Science as a branch of mathematics. Science contains the words that describe the mathematics we discover in almost anything and everything. Thus, science is the dictionary of mathematics and mathematics is the numerical description of science.
hahahahahaha.
deeply flawed
I agree with you.. and we can see this clearly in physics and some of the laws that are used in chemistry and biology.. all these sciences I see expressing mathematics, but experimentally we can to say that they are Visible results of mathematical concepts and rules.. So if mathematics is an immaterial thing in other sciences, it makes it material and its rules can be seen practically
(I not mean to write all this but its math the most amazing thing I've learned)
@galalreda8602 if maths is just a language to describe the universe. Could it be that we've translated some "words" wrong? But because we can still communicate(build things like space ships and computers). We overlook this possibility and perhaps restructuring the basics of math could propel us further than we are now.
Why is zero so easily accepted as a digit? If we've 'tranlated' maths wrong, zero could be like a mathematical crutch to justify the blindspot in how we view maths and the universe. Like a cave man thinking only sticks and rocks can make fire, just because they've never seen an alternative and they're comfortable believing that fire can't be made any other way coz the current way 'works'.
“Numbers don't lie, sir. Politics, poetry, promises - those are lies! Numbers are as close as we get to the handwriting of God”. - Herman Gottlieb, Pacific rim
I love your profile pic
@@김면중-i5e why
@@nfactorial4074 Because I like hot male body?
I mean however you bend it, 3-2=1 will always be true
Somebody learned to count one day and we've forever cursed their name for our hours of stats classes.
Ahh, currently on a binge :/ TED-ED why are you so entertaining ?
If even a single teacher had explained this to me in grade school, my educational career would’ve lasted much longer than it did
Ever since I started watching math and science videos of TED-Ed for school, I can't get enough...
I am not a collage student and am still high school but I enjoy watching these, this one was especially good.
can someone just appreciate those genius minds. I still don't understand how one human began with the concept of math and then a million other followed and today all we do is try to understand the mind of every human who made up math. I can't even understand my mind!
This is a great overview of both sides. I find this subject fascinating, as it is a window into a facet of reality that seems to be beyond our perception.
I like to believe its discovered
Why? It just means we're living in an illusion, and what we know means nothing.
No, that means math is real
Never caring if u consider it real or not
Why would it mean that?
Because math rules the works of the universe, we just discover math formulaes to translate its works to our understanding.
Math just exist, we just try to understand it
I agree. Humans observe the world around us and hit epiphanies. It is discovered
That's like asking if time was discovered or invented
IT WAS INVENTED.
@@ojas771 it was invented by clock companies to sell more clocks.
Discovered we invented clocks to understand it
Time began before humans
So it was discovered
"Mathematics is the language by which God has written the Universe"
~ Galileo Galilei
Yea that just isn't true...
@@dinonugget7114 ?
@@RavinderSingh-tn7zi assuming god's real
@@gautham1039 yep. It's just a way to look at it though, I'm an atheist too.
"The last refuge of a man with no answers and no arguments, it came from God, anything that we can't describe, must've come from God" George Carlin
We discovered Math's patterns just like nature and out of curiosity to understand and use it we invented numbers, theories and equations which developed into a foundation of every invention as time goes on 😊
i think you invent numbers and symbels and discover the rules of equations
I think math is a tool invented by humans used to understand physics. Just like nouns were created to describe objects and places and people
I believe physics is just a section of math( applied math). However there is pure maths such as (abstract algebra) that has almost no application to physics or any other science
And yet it was god who appointed a tongue for us and made us in his image to use it.
Most mathematicians don't care about physics; they're developing mathematics for the sake of itself. Besides there are many mathematical concepts which are developed with little to zero application in the real world. For example the Lebesgue integral was developed to solve the problem that the Riemann integral can't integrate over all measurable spaces. However as far as I know, this shortcoming of the Riemann integral presents no problems in physics. That is, the Lebesgue integral was developed to solve a problem that exists in mathematics but not in physics.
Yeah, in the same way language was invented by humans math was also invented by humans.
The idea of math wouldn't be there without humans. But it'd still be present. Just with a different name. No name.
A fox knows that two rocks is two rocks and one rock is one rock but it won't slide two rocks together and start speaking to its other friends and saying "MATH!" because it was an idea invented by humans. It still exists, but it isn't math. It's just the world.
Math is the language of our universe and physics also happens to be in the universe... who is subordinate to whom then?
2:43 That is how I copy of the board at school.
That last sentence about tress sums it all, and it applies to everything we know.
The fact that animals can count, therefore can have some sort of quantity representation and basic arithmetics, is a sign that math is more discovered than invented.
Source?
@@Ameer4li I know I'm late to this, but it made me think of how when a hamster has more than 4 kids, it eats the other kids, so it would only take care of 4, so it kind of proves that animals count, idk if this proves anything, but it really got me thinking about this
chimpanzees can count, so can dolphins
I disagree
ok but can they develop the concept of rings?
It is the language of the universe, mathematics is only a human's way of comprehending it.
I think this is right: 1:30, "Mathematics is thus an invented logic exercize. With no existence outside mankind's conscious thought. A language of abstract relationships. Based on patterns discerned by brains. Built to use those patterns to invent a useful but artificial order from chaos." Leopold Kronike
Then, as the latter part of the video describes, how is it that pure math developed by humans with no connection or influence from outside observation then turns out to, often decades or centuries later, describe a fundamental fact of how the universe works? If math is merely invented, then that shouldn't happen. And yet it has happened dozens of times.
Silverizael But we aren't talking about the way that universe works. I mean, as many people here claims, math as the numbers and abstract concepts of what human brain describes, like the ''1'' symbol and everything else, is invented by humans, the ''language'' to understand it or give it a sense. And ''math'' (Because it has no name, nor it should be called ''something'' rather than the way that universe works, and even this concept isn't, nor any concept will ever be correct, as it is a human brain invention) as the way that universe may work or works, yes, it's discovered with time, and 1+1=2 (note this is an invention [the symbols]) will be always like that in the ''laws'' of the universe. So we can say math is invented by humans as a way to translate the universal ''math''.
joel13598 Okay, but that's not what this video is discussing. This is discussing whether that "universal math" is something that exists outside of human perception.
Silverizael Not as we perceive it or understand it, but it should, and if not, then gravity theory should be rejected as there's no '''forces'' or ''universal math'' ruling the universe.
Mathematics is a human made tool to analyse, understand, order and to interpret the things we see or think off. Numbers and equations don't exist. It's just in equations we use abstract variables and we use symbols (operations) to discern the relationship between the variables.Numbers allow us to have some way of fitting in values to find answers. If there are 5 trees and no humans then there are still 5 trees but no humans to come along with symbols, sounds or other forms of communication to express them.
I think this is the answer I agree with most.
Malachi Quinn :P In the end I suppose it doesn't matter really. We'll still be drifting through space and time fighting petty wars and making miraculous discoveries - but still ignorant of the truths we could not know.
I suppose you don't know that most of Maths isn't numbers.... nor equations.
***** The ballshit meter's off the scales again.
nice copy paste bro... pretty pathetic.
For me, we just discovered those deep patterns and symmetry in the universe.
And it deponds mostly on logic and the three-dimension space.
But when we tried to represent 5,6...even 11 dimensions space we had to use a different math a different pattern.
We invented the language of math
(Diagrams, symbols,)
Example,
E=mc2
We didn't invent the equality and can not change it in this equation, but we discovered this pattern, probability,geometry and trignomotery......etc.
Those are fundamental patterns which form the structure of three-dimentinal space.
We need to find aliens to know if they have something like maths.
most likly they have because it's a nice tool. But this doesn't proof that nature/the universe is mathematically. It only shows that intelligent life uses abstract tools to accomplish something
Wischenbart Christian - A logical person found.
***** with my keyboard?!
Wischenbart Christian
Depends, if they come across the exact same logical structures, especially for spaces that don't actually seem to exist anywhere, I'd say that's a case for something more fundamental. Even more so if their brain structures are mark ably different. And if not, it would seem mathematics is tied to practicality... which would be very sad indeed.
Wischenbart Christian
but how is e=mc squared ..it show that whole universe is based on math
Mathematics is nothing more than a language used to describe natural and unnatural phenomena. It's quite possibly the greatest contribution from humanity.
Music sounds better than math. Music has more melody.
@@ANDROLOMA
music is math lol
@@Prince_Sharming That's mathematics to my ears!
🙃
Un ejemplo muy representativo a la respuesta que se quiere llegar sería el siguiente:
Cuando una persona conoce a otra y estas dos no hablan el mismo idioma buscan la manera de comunicarse de tal forma que con el tiempo van entendiendo lo que la una le quiere decir a la otra. La necesidad de poder comunicarse hizo que estas dos personas inventaran o crearan una forma abstracta de comunicación, que con el tiempo se va puliendo y haciéndose más entendible para ambas. Una vez que la comunicación ya no es el problema, se buscará representar esa comunicación.
La invención de las matemáticas es como cualquier otro intento del humano por interpretar el comportamiento de lo hay a nuestro alrededor, de darle un representación gráfica y de poder tener un sistema con el que se puedan hacer calculos más allá de nuestra imaginación. Obviamente si los humanos no existieramos tampoco habría existencia de las matemáticas.
pero el teorema de pitagoras seria cierto igualmente! no con ese nombre, pero en un triangulo rectangulo se seguiria cumpliendo esa propiedad
@@carlosraventosprieto2065yes but the theorem is man made and the triangle in it of itself is not math yes it has its properties that would exist regardless of human inquiry but it’s mathematics lies in the description that’s the math part and that part is man made
For the last question, I want people who believe that while quantities exist (something I wholeheartedly agree with) to remember that units do not. Units are a human invention. It requires agreeing on when to separate one thing from another.
매우 흥미로운 주제내요. 수학이 어디에서 온 학문일까 라는 질문을 우리가 답할 수 있을 지조차 의문입니다. 그러나 이 문제를 끊임없이 고민하는 과정에서 수학적 발견이 이루어지는 것 같습니다. 유익한 영상 감사합니다!
In my opinion, mathematics is an invented system and the reason it has so many practical applications in the real world is that the axioms that define it are based on common-sense observations that appear true in nature, and therefore it is expected that the conclusions that are drawn from it should also have real-world applications.
Mathematics has various invented systems, the most used of which is based on Euclid
3:56
Einstein's laugh 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I like how centuries-long debates like this is ended with a Zen kōan :)
"If there's a NUMBER OF TREES IN A FOREST, but no one is there to count them, does that number exist?..."
You just answered your own question by saying if there's a number of trees in the forest. Yes.
Q)How far can a dog run into that same forest?
A)Only halfway. Then he's running out.
I think he was talking about the absolute value, not the literal word 'number, or the abstract idea of the 'number'.
@@ANDROLOMA But how do you know the dog is male?
@@dudethebagman I acknowledge the use of a gender specific pronoun, and plead guilty as charged to the complaint as listed above.
Its invented to keep students on their toes
+BritishTea School math =/= REEEAL math
School math is almost spam
Real math is useful
Lol! So true!
Say that to the engineers and mathematicians that allowed us to sail the Atlantic Ocean or send a man to space or to precisely calculate the distance between the earth and the moon.
Maths is presented in a way that's comprehensible for humans but the meaning and concepts behind the written numbers have genuine value
+ShyanTheLegend Come on, that was obviously a joke.
At the end of the day, mathematics is just a form of logic. I like to think of it as boolean logic with an infinite number of truth values.
In a math exam, if I discover the answer, I'll invent the solution.
We created the number system and used our experiences to define how 1 apple and 1 apple is 2 apples which kinda defined the rest.
math and its fundimentals have existed for all time, but numbers and math as we know them were invented to identify it, like words were invented to identify objects and ideas.
Exactly, is language invented or discovered?
Winson Hui Mathematics isn't just 1 or 2 or 3,4..meaning the symbols which we use to represent amount, but it is the fact/relation that 4 things can be grouped into two each containing 2 of those things. above fact doesn't depend on whether we exist to witness it or not..
Isn't it the same with language? I could also ask whether there is a tree, if there is no one who could call it a tree. The number of trees is just an enhanced description of the scenario.
There are not so much different math languages, but there are a few. The romans had their own numbers, we have decimal, binary and hexadecimal systems, etc.
As a software developer I'm dealing daily with describing or defining things, using a mix of english, my native language, different programming or markup languages and of course also math.
Yeh this is one the best example for describing mathematics is a language.
Language wasn’t necessary for atoms to exist. But math was.
That's what I love about math and science - there's no right answer, it's all just a matter of perspective and opinion.
It rings a bell... does this come from a TV show ? (without being offensive, it just really rings a bell)
@@axellegazier5542 It does come from a TV show! - Big Bang Theory, quoting Penny's boyfriend Zach.... I'm impressed that you picked up on that. You must be as big a geek as me 😅
@@GRDwashere I knew it !!! Yes, guilty as charged ^^'
Andrew wiles once said that working through mathematical proofs is like fending your way through hedges after hedges. Only at the end of the proof do you discover that it was already laid out as a beautiful pristine garden. Thats what I believe maths to be, a pristine garden.
Great video! School really demystifies the beauty of mathematics... I'm learning to appreciate it again for its universality
For me, its all of his descriptions. We DISCOVERED it as a UNIVERSAL TRUTH/DIVINE CREATION and expressed it using INVENTED languages and ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCTED symbols which are HUMAN PRODUCED.
It depends on what we call mathematics. I like to separate the mathematics from the structure we use to describe it. Let me call those structures notation. We construct new notations all the time. In this line of thought, different notations are different languages, but mathematics would be discovered.
The difference centers around, unlike human languages, notations have their way to construct consistent new terms from the previous ones. In doing that, we discover new mathematics. In languages one usually invent something new then it is named.
Different notations, as happen with languages, can be split becoming different dialects, sometimes mutually intelligible, sometimes not. In this fashion, sometimes one needs to borrow words from another language/notation to complete one's ideas, sometime one adapts those words to our own language/notation. And thus, the work of Burbaki's would be nothing but aiming to establish a self consistent language that can grow without borrowing from other.
Thank you for the video. I am grateful for your time and contribution. Kind regards, Akira.
In my opinion math is a language invented used to describe and explain the shape of the universe, we invented math and by some mysterious luck it turned out to lead us to discover how our world works
I believe that Math is already created in the world and we're discovering new things about it each time
Exactly, its just like science!! Science its just there but scientist does all the work.
There's more to maths than you think.
We did not discover Math, we invented it. It's a language we made up to understand things around us, discover solutions that will answer a lot of our problems.
We invented the symbols - not the underlying concept of math. Math exists with or without us. If math didn't exist without humans the universe would fall apart.. therefore, math exists as an inherent and inseparable property of the universe.
Mathematics is the language we use to describe the phenomena around us. The language is invented but the phenomena is discovered. The phenomena is subject to biases in our senses, though, so Leopold Kronecker does still have a point
I don't want my brain to think about this at 3am
Mathematics is the way a human can quantify natural processes that would exist with or without humans. The math existed, we simply use symbols to interpret it.
Both.
Invented, as the language of recognizing a symbol (1) to mean (definition: one, singular), and so on. But also discovered, because whether we have the language to describe 2,000 as the number of trees in a forest or not, the concept that number describes isn't going to change randomly, with trees blinking in and out of existence based on the abstract concept of a nonexistent number. It will have exactly 2,000 trees in the forest whether we have discovered the language to express the concept of 2,000 or not.
fraction plays a huge role in answering complex math problems back then the birth of algebra, calculus etc
ruclips.net/video/RrCzYu3hs68/видео.html
Doing research in Mathematics means to discover tiny parts of an ingenious architecture that is by far beyond the capabilities of any human mind.
Math is something that we discovered in the relationships of various things, but its expression, in the form of numbers and symbols (which I call the notation) is quite certainly a human invention. 2+2=4 is the expression of a relationship of some objects. That relationship, however, holds across a very great number of kinds of objects. Two apples and (or plus) two apples equals four apples, or doughnuts, or atoms, or stars, or whatever. The relationship holds. That is a nutshell way of expressing the definition of what we call math.
Why does the information have to be read/interpreted in order for it to exist? A message in a bottle is still a message. It doesn't matter if nobody is around to count the trees. There is still a discrete number of them at any given time.
+Monochromicornicopia prove it
Gecko Gold
Facts are observable. You can "prove it" anytime you want.
Monochromicornicopia
but what about when they are not being observed?
Gecko Gold
In that case, the word "prove" does not apply here. If nobody observes it, it cannot be proved.
However, we can still use logic. For example: Last time I looked, my kitchen table was behind me. Is it *still* behind me?
According to your logic, we don't know whether or not my kitchen table is behind me because I'm not staring at it.
See the failure in your reasoning?
+Monochromicornicopia I think that's the idea. You don't know if your kitchen table is behind you. You have to look back to it again.
These questions made me want to switch from a stem degree to a philosophy/theology degree.
It's exactly as the names. Trees don't have the name of "trees", we call them like these so we can communicate. In these case we use numbers so we can function our lifestyle and many forms and ways. Everything excises in our minds
Math is very clearly apart of nature itself. The way we interpret that information - numbers, symbols and in writing - is our own creation.
I love maths.
@@therearenogods3716
thank you
CAUTION:
Entering philosophy zone. Sensible comments not guaranteed.
Kind wish there was a longer version of this that went into more detail.
Was math invented or discovered?
Math is useful in daily life and helps us with inventing new technologies. Therefore, many people wonder if math was invented or discovered. While some people might think that math was invented because math would exist if humans weren't there to think about it. I feel that math was discovered, because the math is still there waiting for people to discover it and describe it in their own language.
Take the forest as an example. If there are an amount of trees in a forest but there are no one counting it, does that mean the trees don't exist? No, the amount of trees are still there. Math is still there waiting for someone to discover it.
Another reason why I think math was discovered is because math is a pattern in nature. For example, the Fibonacci sequence was discovered in so many different plants and animals. Another example is geometry, shapes are commonly found in the nature, by measuring and looking at the shapes we discovered many properties about them and we use numbers and symbols to describe what we had discovered.
Finally, math is the basic principle of the universe. The universe is physical, and we use math to explain physics. For example, the Earth is orbiting the Sun, but at what speed? Even if humans weren't there to ask this question, the answer is already hidden in the universe.
In short, math was discovered and it is always there even if humans never existed. Math is a pattern in the nature and is the basic principle of the universe. Therefore, I believe that math was discovered.
If a tree falls in a forest, but no one is there to hear it; does it make a sound
If a fart goes off in the forest, but no one is there to smell it; does it stink ?
ataarono I won't even try to answer that
ataarono well it in fact doesn't stink simply because if in fact that fart had occurred then there would have been a person there to smell it. good day.
Yes. Conservation of energy.
Mark Tkachenko yes it does. Due to the laws of physics. However, nobody hears a sound.
I'd say mathematicians are the linguists of science. Fields like physics and chemistry are no more than languages, used to describe and understand the world in order to give future generations something to work with. Mathematics is what tells us the rules of these languages by inventing a language of its own. An example: gravity. It's definetly a thing but that's pretty much all physics alone can tell us. Using mathematics we can get a better insight into how it works. Or, to give an easier example: The word tree. It describes something real. Here the English language works like physics. It can tell you about something is real, but that's it. That's where linguistics hit. Now we can tell or find out, how the word is pronounced and where it comes from. So linguistic can tell us about more details. So do maths. But neither nor are real. They are human inventions helping us in order to get a better understanding of something that describes something real.
If no human had ever invented mathematics our DNA would still be formed in the same way and a rectangular triangle would still have the same proportions. We just wouldn't know and have no option to find out. Mathematics works so wonderful because it only works by very few basic laws which are man made. But everything else is just wonderful coincidences which had to happen because, if you have unlimited options, there will be one thing that describes just what you need to describe. It's like being surprised because your phone number is part of Pi. Of course it is, that's how infinity works.
The way i see it is: Concept of maths was discovered but maths as we know it was invented.
I love this question and I’ve always pondered it
I love you too ❤️
If it is a natural language of the universe, it's pretty cool that humans were able to find it everywhere in nature and understand it as well as we do!
Very interesting. Vsauce gave a brief set of comments about this when they were talking about infinites that are larger than other infinites. Mathematics is a naturally occurring phenomenon that is discovered, but can be arbitrarily defined, ordered, patterned, and created in an attempt to further understand it.
If I say that the letter J will represent every number which repeats itself 8 times as a digit in the lowest 100 prime numbers, I have created a mathematical tool. What I discover about the universe already existed, but the tool did not. I created it.
Daniel Bundrick Therefore maths are invented
Daniel Bundrick Prove your axioms mate.
Daniel Bundrick Or at least rigourously define them.
the fact that numbers or quantities are seen in nature doesn't mean that quantity is being expressed by nature in the same way man does, maybe nature hides a much different code behind presence but it reflects as numbers in mankinds eye
math is a way to tell natural statements but its not the same way nature uses...
My point is that the tools used to explain naturally occurring mathematical phenomena are created. Therefore mathematics is both naturally occurring and created depending on how you define it. Five whole apples cannot be equally decided into groups other than 1 and 5. This is naturally occurring phenomenon and a man-made tool known as Prime Numbers. That's my point.
El final, la pregunta Zen, es perfecta para afirmar o rebatir el tema. Como materialista diría que esos árboles existen independientemente de cualquier otro ser vivo allí presente y, además, existen en un orden y cantidad específicas según se lo permite la naturaleza. *_La matemática se descubre_** porque extraemos de la realidad **_fenómenos y hechos observables_** y, aunque seamos nosotros quienes **_contamos, medimos y ordenamos_** según nuestra necesidad y criterio, **_esas cosas existen independientes de nosotros_** y es lo que **_nos permite crear esta ciencia y el lenguaje que la describe_** y **_hacer abstracción de la misma realidad._*
ruclips.net/video/RrCzYu3hs68/видео.html
Seeing as how math is a languages used to describe things in terms of count and measure... it's invented. You discover a phenomenon, and invent math to explain it to others. Sometimes math that is just there proves useful elsewhere but that's happenstance.
We just invented the words to describe it.
+Meep “the” Changeling If maths is required to explain a discovered phenomenon, wouldn't this math be sort of a characteristic of this phenomenon, therefore it being present in nature and discovered as well? I don't have a solid opinion on this. I'm not knowledgeable enough, but I do think it can't ever be answered so simply.
Its something we created to try and understand the universe
Is the hammer a tool that is discovered or invented? It's obviously invented. But on the other hand it's simply a bunch of materials, that predates the hammer, that was put together in an orderly fashion.
Is the number discovered or invented?
The number was created by Arabs and Indians but is used to represent a quantifiable concept.
Numbers are just our way of understanding patterns and our best tool ever. With numbers we can find the exact distance between the earth and the moon in a measurement that we can understand. Kepler's law wasn't invented. It was discovered. But Kepler arranged this discovery in a formula that is capable of being interpreted by humans. The numbers represent something genuine which would be incomprehensible without numbers.
Mathematics is discovered AND invented. We invented the tools to discover maths by inventing numbers
I think of it like this. Was fire invented or discovered?
I say kinda both, human language is a social construct, that’s the malleable part of this.
The distinction between invention and discovery in the first place.
I think this question bares on a particular problem with hard materialism, (only material things enjoy full ontological status). Mathmatics, being non material but also indispensable in describing and predicticting the behavior of material things, AND doing an amazing job doing so, seems to suggest that numbers, as well as mathmatical functions, MUST be real. It spooks out the materialists I think.😊
that forest analogy was weak. thats like saying if a person was smiling in the forest and no one saw it, does happiness exist?
Humans are evolved in the image of the universe. It is not surprising that human inventions are consistent with the functioning of the universe. Eugene Wigner was mistaken.
The fact, that everything we now know to be part of mathematics can be defined, is discovered, while the very definitions in it are invented.