Toyota RAV4 eCVT transmission - I was wrong and here's why...
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- In my recent Toyota RAV4 PHEV review I criticised the eCVT transmission. Quite a few of you said I didn't understand how it worked and that is was a really clever and incredibly efficient drive train.
Well it turns out I was wrong and here's why. After reading up on how it works and also living with the car for longer I now totally understand the eCVT. Let me try and explain...
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Welcome to the official Petrol Ped RUclips channel! On this channel you will find a variety of content like high quality car reviews, launch events, press drives, event coverage from Goodwood and other awesome automotive experiences! Make sure to subscribe, turn on ALL notifications and join me on my petrol fuelled journey!
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#PetrolPed #Automotive #ToyotaeCVTGearbox
1.) Make a mistake 2.) Admit it 3.) correct it - genius! I hope this idea catches on!
I owned a Camry Hybrid and loved the drivetrain, because it’s variable you feel no shift points. I also like Toyota’s because I worked as an assembly specialist for them and and retired with 31 years. They make great vehicles and treated me well.
Great video, thanks.
In addition to my 500hp Audi Q7, and my motorcycles, I also have a Toyota hybrid. As an owner I must say that the use of the 'eCVT' label, by both Toyota and Ford for their planetary torque-split gearboxes, does them a disservice. Everyone sees the 'CVT' part, but very few understand that the 'e' stands for 'emulated'. It eliminates the direct linkage between engine and road speeds, just like a CVT, but is fundamentally different and shares absolutely nothing in common with the CVTs that so many cringe over. I applaud your taking the time to dig deeper, and learn more about how the system really works, as that lousy 'eCVT' label causes far too many to dismiss it out of hand. The Weber Auto recommendation was a fantastic choice, as he does a great job of demystifying planetary torque-split gearboxes. I'd highly recommend people take a look at Weber Auto's full catalog of videos to learn more about what makes their car work. 👍
How do you compare the resposiveness of the ecvt in comparison to a manual or traditional automatic?
Given that its in power mode for sure
@@FirstLast-tx3yj In 'Power Mode' the response is instantaneous, maximizing the use of the motor-generators.
Exactly
@@FirstLast-tx3yj just had this channel pop up in my RUclips algorithm, so I apologize for my comment coming a year later😂.
I test drove a Toyota Avalon, which does not have all-wheel drive and forgoes the rear motor and it was quite sluggish from a dead stop.
Toyota's 4 cylinder all-wheel-drive hybrid platform has the feel and acceleration of a V6 due to the instantaneous torque provided by the electric motors mg2 & mg3/r.
Just a minor nit, the "e" in eCVT stands for "electronic" ( *electronic* Continuously Variable Transmission)... Where the "e" is really referring to the implementation and functions of the the electric motors (MG1 / MG2) which control the driveshaft speed, crankshaft speed, HV battery charging, reverse mode, (and on and on) in the transmission.
Thanks for clearing that up. Perhaps the most impressive thing about this powertrain is that the electronics control both the engine and the transmission in every detail and the result is not just excellent fuel efficiency but also a very rewarding driving experience with a lot of flexibility left in the drivers control. As well as Weber's excellent explanation of the transmission there is also plenty of material about the highly sophisticated engine design which is itself a hybrid supporting both Atkinson cycle principles and more conventional operation as required. The electronics allow all these variations to operate seamlessly and the driver gets instantaneous response to the accelerator pedal.
I’m 74 years and your video made me smile…..
When I was 18 years I made a cycletour through Holland, the Netherlands. In the province Friesland impetus a young couple with a DAF ( Dafodle) , I believe that this was its name. That car had a CVT and DAF Eindhoven, from the van Doorn family, was the first CVT car in Holland and Europa..
It’s nice to see you so enthusiastic about the choice Toyota made with this car.. I will follow you because I like your style..
Daf advert back in the day, " Forward to go forward, back to to go back" Brilliant system. Similar system on early combine harvesters, to increase or decrease forward speed in very small increments.
Yeah, the variomatics. Went as fast forward as they did backwards. They organised races driving them backwards on Zandvoort. Hilarious stuff.
The DAF had a literal rubber band drive and it was rubbish.
Finally! Congratulations! You understand it now and admit you had it wrong in the first review. So many of your “professional” colleague reviewers still don’t understand it, only because they don’t take the time to really understand it. It just don’t fit their idea/concept how a car should sound and work.
This makes your reviews so much more trustworthy. You have gained a subscriber. Thank you and keep on making these great video’s!
Thanks Roy for the lovely comment and Sun and welcome to the channel 👍
The motors don’t change direction to change from motor to generator, I doubt he really understands it. If MG1 needed to reverse direction, you would need to drive in reverse to get it to regenerate.
As a former engineer I found this fascinating, very well explained and informative, well done.
👍
And here was I thinking my transmission was slipping. I'm so use to direct drive so to speak. Thanks for the explanation 👍
Glad to help
A couple days ago I wanted to understand more about the eCVT in my 2019 RAV4 XSE Hybrid, and watched that same video by WeberAuto. Your video popped on my radar today, and within a few minutes I KNEW that it was his video that made you as excited (as I now am) to tell people about how COOL and BRILLIANT this transmission is. Between the MG1, MG2, and a few gears, I think there are a total of ~8 moving parts in the transmission -- and no heat generating, transmission destroying, "flexible metal belt" garbage like an old-school CVT. Unless someone somehow comes up with something simpler that works just as well, I could easily see this style of transmission be the standard for all hybrids.
Thanks for your honesty. CVT transmissions have caused confusion with many people who are confused by the engine revs. It does take some time to get used to the way they operate compared with normal gearboxes. The Toyota system is very clever and could well be the direction we need to go during the transition to full EV.
Thanks again, a great video.
Gerry in Australia.
Thanks Gerry 👍
What does going full ev have to do with this transmission?
@@miltechmoto essentially a CVT will give the driver an experience not achieved in standard gearboxes. It will find peak torque and the car can remain there whilst it accelerates. This is similar to the power delivery by EVs, albeit not so brutal.
In other words a CVT has one effective gear just like an EV.
Yes there are various CVT boxes available and depending on the manufacturer and the software that they have, the may behave differently.
Good video ped - and it’s important for people to realise how clever these systems are (yet so reliable). Couple of errors I picked up on (only minor). MG2 doesn’t run in reverse to charge (it’s meshed directly to the drive wheels remember), it just drags to regenerate. MG1 doesn’t do re-gen braking, however it can be turned by the ICE to generate electricity. If ICE is generating while your driving, MG2 is driving, whilst ICE / MG1 are generating. You can’t use the ICe to contribute to acceleration if MG1 is generating, as MG1 would have to be turning the sun gear to provide the variable ratio.
Just to add, MG2 swaps polarity, rather than direction, to provide regen and braking, the effect can be varied by the brake pedal, the car is brake by wire. There is no direct connection to the brakes, the computer handles the swap between motors and physical brakes (there is an emergency backup, where it becomes physical).
MG1 also starts the engine as there is no starter, and can provide 'engine braking'. It's not true engine braking, it spins up the ICE without ignition and allows MG2 to provide additional resistance or cope where the hybrid battery is regarded as 'full'. The battery technology will determine the balance there. For NIMH it operates somewhere between 40-80% and that reduces the number of cycles and makes the battery last much longer.
The cars have an electric water pump, no alternator as that's done by the DC to DC convertor. A smaller 12v battery as they have no starter and once running, the main larger battery provides all the current.
The aircon units are electric, so can run without the engine.
There are lots of videos of the technology, it's complex software but physically simpler than a normal car and by that, it's more reliable and more reliable because it's Toyota.
Yes, on reliability. Until I did the digging on eCVT, I always wondered why the hybrid Toyota system seems to be so reliable, when at first glance, they would seem to be more complex. Well they actually are a pretty simple system as compared to an 8-10 sp auto with it all it clutch packs , TC and solenoids.
@@aaronb6390 And just to add a bit more: both MG1 & MG2 are 3 phase variable frequency a.c. motor/alternators with permanent magnets. Nice and simple mechanically, with no nasty contact brushes or anything like that. The Toyota “synergy drive” kit has 3 inverters (for the 3 phases) that work both ways between the high voltage traction battery and the motors, and a couple of dc to dc converters, to cover all the odds and ends that still use 12 V dc etc, including maintaining the conventional 12V battery.
MG2 is sometimes called the traction motor, and as with all traction motors, it can churn out maximum torque at zero speed, and it’s permanently connected to the differential gear - even if one selects “neutral”, which just isolates the circuitry (including any battery charging).
There are no rubber belts used in the Toyota hybrids - no low voltage alternator or any pumps. The ICE uses chain drive for the camshafts. Much of the complexity has been taken over by things like Integrated Gate Bipolar Transistors (IGBT) for power electronics, and associated software. However, the power electronic unit is liquid cooled, with it’s own coolant and so on, physically separate from the engine cooling, so that needs maintenance as per the manual - but it’s easy to glance at the fluid levels every so often.
@@xfirstxlast6502 Correct. The transmission only contains the motor/generators and gears including the sun and planet system so there are no wearing components there at all. This gives the mechanical components extreme reliability. Where I live a lot of the private hire drivers are driving Toyota Auris/Corolla hybrid estates.
I believe in power mode if MG1 rotates in the opposite direction to the engine at the same speed no power goes to the wheels
If MG1 slows down at an rpm lower than the engine the gear ratio starts to decrease numerically and moving power to the wheels
At equal rpm between mg1 and ice you have 1:1 gear ratio
And when MG1 spins the same direction as ICE you will have over drive!
Evening all , six months ago I bought a GR Yaris and on an impulse bought a hybrid Yaris too , first impression was this gearbox is weird but once you dive it and get used to it it’s actually not that bad and as a bonus the economy was astounding ! so just traded it in for a new Yaris Cross which is actually a lot quieter… thank god !
Oh and six months later still totally blown away by the GR , can’t stop smiling when I drive it !
Mega cars 👍
Good explanation, been driving Toyota hybrids for a while now . Until you know how they work unlike CVTs of old you come to appreciate how good they are and how clever Toyota are bringing this to market and being successful
Yep 👍
I picked up my new Corolla GR Sport 2.0 Hybrid one month ago. It is the first CVT transmission vehicle that I have used. I quite like the roar you get on acceleration, then the quietness you get when cruising. You can barely detect when the engine cuts in after driving on EV only. My wife loves driving it too, so happy days.
They are great cars 👍
Correction for everyone it’s called a E-CVT.
I have a 2019 Prius Prime, which uses the P-610 e-CVT (the baby brother to the P-710 in the Rav4 Prime in this video). Toyota's HSD transaxles are really good technology, very reliable, and they last a very long time if you just change the oil and coolant at the recommended intervals. They are much simpler internally than a conventional automatic or belt-drive CVT, and there's not much that can go wrong with them within the normal life of a car (250,000 miles). I'm not counting the traction battery, of course - the battery will probably need replacement at 120,000 miles - but the internal components of the transaxle and power inverter/converter are generally good for 250K. And the operating cost for gasoline and home charging on a plug-in Hybrid make them pretty easy on the wallet. PHEV's occupy that middle ground between conventional vehicles and pure battery-electrics, with all the best qualities of both, if not the 240+ mile electric range of a Tesla, Bolt, or Leaf.
As for high-revving: My Prius Prime, in Hybrid mode, cruises at 55 mph with the gas engine running at 1200~1300 rpm, and it's virtually silent. Climbing steep grades on a freeway, say 6% (that's 6 feet of rise per 100 feet, or 3°26' if you like angular measure), at 55 mph, the engine will be running between 2400 and 3200 rpm, depending on state of charge in the battery and how heavily loaded the car is. The computer that's controlling everything will never allow the gas engine to rev past 4,200 rpm, which is the torque peak - revving it any faster will not gain you any faster acceleration. The low torque peak speed is a consequence of the Atkinson cycle; you sacrifice top end power for better fuel economy and efficiency. At engine speeds above 2500 rpm, the engine noise becomes more noticeable, but since the car is only that noisy on steep hills and hard accelerations, and very quiet most of the rest of the time, in my opinion, the Prius and Rav 4 Hybrids and Rav4 Prime are among the smoothest and quietest cars with a gas engine that you can get. Pure EV's are quieter, but can't match the 550+ mile driving range of a Prius or Rav4 Plug-in hybrid. And that's 550 miles year round: summer or winter, rain or snow, hot or cold. Pure EV's often see their driving range cut in half if the temperature falls below 5°C.
To elaborate on the explanation of this Rav4's drivetrain: The planetary gear he refers to is the "Power Split Device" in the heart of the transaxle. The MG1 motor is splined to the central Sun gear. The MG2 motor is splined to the outer ring gear of the PSD and to the differential. The gasoline engine is splined to the planetary gear carrier. The computer that's controlling the powertrain looks at the position of the throttle pedal, the car's speed, and the state of charge in the traction battery, and if the vehicle is in Hybrid mode with the gasoline engine running, it will first decide what RPM is most efficient for the gas engine. It will send fuel to the engine, and electric power to the MG1 motor, is a proportion that causes the engine to deliver the desired amount of power at the proper engine rotation speed that matches the vehicle speed. It does this by causing the MG1 motor to spin faster, or slower, or even in reverse, depending on the speed of the vehicle. Before the availability of small yet powerful computers in the late 1990's, the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive would have been impossible. The computer that accomplishes all of this magic is reading dozens of sensors and making thousands of decisions every second as to how to allocate gasoline to the engine and power flow to the two motors and the traction battery.
Rav4 plugin hybrid uses p810 just like highlander
Very good, simple explanation.
Only part I would add is that for any planetary gear set if two of the three components move at the same speed it effectively locks the gear set so you get 1 to 1 ratio - so in the rav 4 at 1 to 1 engine ratio MG1 must match the engine speed.
Pity all the other reviewers haven’t owned up to not knowing how brilliant the E CvT is, well done sir, I only wish the plug in hybrid was available in Australia, so much for our politicians being seriously concerned about the environment.
So, fun fact, the XSE PHEV with the premium package (the vehicle you're driving) is the only one in the RAV4 hybrid lineup to actually HAVE a rev gauge + paddle shifters (I have a feeling you weren't aware). It can be found in the heads up display.
How they actually work, because eCVT do have only one continuous gear? Bet like computer or speakers fooling 😂
Wow, glad you’re not just another basic motoring journalist. In the Lexus NX phev which is the same tech as this, the noise isn’t much of an issue as it’s got really good sound dampening.
Excellent video, thank you. I have a 2019 RAV4 hybrid Excel and love it. Before that I had a 2017 RAV4 hybrid and Toyota have improved on each gen. I have got used to the higher revs and don't notice it. Toyota are now offering a 10 year warranty providing the car is serviced by themselves each year. The ecvt is near enough bullet proof. I wish I could afford the PHEV but it's a little over my price point. Thank you for your comments.
I can’t have a PHEV so would need the standard petrol hybrid. Is it the same gearbox in both
@@kencatchpole5063 yep same ecvt. Every thing is the same apart from a bigger battery and an upgraded inverter to push more power to mg2 and the rear motor. This gives a 301 hp to the 219 hp of the regular hybrid.
I had also just watched the full video on the eCVT for the RAV4 last week. It makes you appreciate the amazing thought and design going into it. Most people I would say only care about the figures and stats, so I understand that eCVT opinions are just based on Misty how it feels.
Otherwise, keep up the good work 😎👍.
As one of the chief pedants on your previous RAV4 video, well done on a good explanation!
"It doesn't sound right" is exactly the reason why car enthusiasts don't like hybrids. Despite hybrids actually being very responsive - making great use of the (rather limited) engine power.
👍
The original eCVT in the Prius actually won a major Engineering award.
And I think toyota has a patent on it and that is why no other cars can reverse engineer it and use it.
The motor deserves credit too. It's the perfect engine and trans combo.
I learned about the eCVT from the Car Care Nut on you tube awhile back. Yes it is amazing. I drive the 2023 Prius AWD XLE and love it!
I have a RAV4 & think its very clever technology and now through your great explanation I know how it works
I know this is an old video - but I’ve been driving the 2024 facelift Ford Kuga which uses a Toyota based hybrid system and I love it, I don’t find the car noisy at all…..great explanation of how the system works.
I have a Highlander Hybrid and I'm an engineer as well and I had the same exact reaction about how eCVT works when I finally understood it...genius! I watched that exact video you recommended about eCVT multiple times to get my head wrapped around it😅. You have to forget the traditional gear box system to fully understand and appreciate this, it is really brilliant.
other makes use an automated manual box where toyota have the 'Power Split Device'. Geesh!
Thank you for the clarification. Very helpful!
We are trying to decide between the HEV and PHEV versions of the Rav4. We we’re leaning towards the HEV simply because we know we won’t always have access to charging, but now we know the car can charge the battery (albeit with a higher fuel consumption) that’s swayed things back in favour of the PHEV - which is more appealing because it has a few more features (such as a HUD).
Why I love this channel is because of your honesty in reviewing cars. Keep up the good work.
👍
You easily earned a subscriber with this video of yours! This RAV4 with the hybrid AWD system is also very capable off the road for what it is. With the capability and efficiency it provides, it makes up for a perfect road trip car no matter the conditions!
Thanks for the sub and welcome ti the channel 👍
Thank you for making this video. You explanined very well how it works. The only thing i was missing is that when it rev's that it rev's for only a short period of time only when you are accelerating and then the car is super quiet. That is the main reason why you get used to it very quickly and it elevated the comfort. As you said it is a very comfy car and very smooth. I have a Toyota Auris hybrid ts myself so i am familiair with the drivetrain. Appologies for my English. I am Dutch.
Thanks again for your video. 🙂
Greetings from Arno.
Great video. I drive an earlier iteration of an ecvt ('13 gs 450h), once you get used to the utter glassy smoothness you'll find every other transmission lacking in refinement. Luckily, being coupled to a 3.5 v6, it never needs to rev quite so highly during normal driving. The moment you step on it the power is there instantly, no kickdown, just straight into the powerband. It's a weird feeling but the speedometer shows that you're accelerating at a decent rate (of course, in comparison to today's 400hp+ EV benchmark it's nothing spectacular).
10/10 for the come back video. Thought your last video was a bit harsh.
Watched the weberauto guy myself when I bought my Rav to understand how it worked, his explanation and build video is fantastic.
Hi, I am reminded of the young people who race around on rev ‘n’ go automatic mopeds / scooters. Their engines and cvt transmissions let the engine spin straight up to optimum engine performance as they accelerate quickly away. I watched a video today of a 70cc rev ‘n’ go scooter in a race on a race track and it absolutely blitzed the other bikes! Like I said, the transmission allows the engine to reach optimum power and torque and literally hold those revs as the little scooter raced away with the engine holding those revs. Your initial thoughts on the hybrid sound brought the scooter analogy to mind. That Rav 4 hybrid will be mine one day! Great work Pedro!
Hi Ped, really great video, very honest and well explained. I very much agree that plug in hybrids need more range, I do a 72 mile daily commute daily. So even the more advance Mercedes hybrids are not quite there yet. I would be happy to sacrifice engine size to achieve this, as it would take care of 90% of my journeys. Thanks again.
Your research paid off Peter because that was beautifully explained
Thanks 🙏🏻
Your review throughout the long term loan experience has totally solidified my sincere desire to get the exact model you have been driving.
Candid, insightful and helped me massively thank you.... just need to sort my finances, as can only go down the pre owned route, but a 71 or above plate will be perrfect.
Karl H-W
Glad it was helpful 👍
Correction regarding motor/generator mode:
Whether it operates as a motor, or generator, has nothing to do with the direction of rotation of its shaft; both modes are available with both shaft directions. The mode is determined solely by the direction of current flow, i.e., current polarity, versus the voltage polarity.
A motor/generator can change from one mode to the other, with no change in its shaft speed. All of the "magic" happens in the electronic controller, which sets the polarity and magnitude of current.
As an engineer, I truly appreciate the novelty and cleverness of the Toyota hybrid design. I wish it was not referred to as e-CVT, though, because such a name is misleading and doesn't do the system justice. None of the power transfers within the system rely on friction.
As always, a clear, concise and well researched video Pete, I owned a C-HR for about 18 months and can honestly say you don’t get used to the engine screaming like a banshee whilst not going anywhere particularly fast. It had god awful MPG on a long motorway drive too. It might be very clever tech, but it’s not appealing to me at all.
That’s because you never understood how the system works and how to drive the car. Toyota hybrids are ultra efficient on motorway journeys, however within speed limits only and because of the drive train and how it works even with 2.5 ltr engines these are not particularly suitable for high speeds or fast acceleration, also for constant engine loads.
I have had 2 Prius in my company car days, averaging 30k a year, mainly motorways, they would comfortably return 50-60mpg all day long, the CHR drivetrain is identical to the Prius. the engine only revved up when you were giving some welly. maybe you were speeding up/ slowing down a lot on your motorway trips? When cruising at 70, the car was virtually silent.
I get about 45-50mpg whilst leaving most other drivers behind in my Hybrid...took me about 3months to understand how the car works. Now that I do, I can get about briskly whilst maintaining good mpg.
I’m late to the party here (video is 8 months old at time of my post), but that was just an EXCELLENT explanation of the Toyota hybrid charge system. I’ve been mulling over this car as a replacement to my 2018 Volvo XC90 D5, so maybe I’ll step up. Problem for me (here in Spain) is that the lead time is almost one year from date of order!
Glad you read comments.
However long term reliability exemplary stands above most other makes regardless of gearbox.
This you failed to mention.
Most competition falls short BMW etc
I did indeed…oops 🙈
🤔😉 Well Ped! Finally you've understood! I did reply to you that I bought an older Auris, 2015 and I struggled to appreciate this ..."slipping clutch syndrome"! Being an ancient BMC degreed apprentice, I did my research too! I understood then what you've just described and it's still mind blowing 7 years later! In fairness, you did like my comments earlier but I didn't even try to go into detail! So happy that you, too, have finally got the full picture! 👌
Cheers John 👍
This is the second video where the Toyota tech has been explained in detail. (fuel cell). It has really helped me to understand the hybrid drivetrain. Now that I am warming to this car, I need to get a test drive. Thanks for your candour regarding your previous comments Ped. 👍😎
No worries George 👍
Hi Ped, I have now watched the excellent Weber Autos videos about the Toyota Hybrid Drivetrain technologies, and now fully understand how they work. There is a great deal of basic mechanical combined with electrical engineering to produce an electronic continuously variable transmission system. The biggest surprise is that it had been out there for over 20 years! Toyota are the world leaders in eCVT technology.
Really enjoyed that. Well explained. I have a 2021 corolla - not sure if it has exactly the same setup as the RAV4 but I am fine with the engine note. Not quite as efficient as my previous Prius but still a smooth, comfortable car to drive.
My understanding is the Corolla has a ‘typical’ CVT. Not sure about the Corolla, but some Tototas have what (I believe) they call a DCVT. CVTs only provide good performance over a small range of power and the DCVT provides a first gear (similar to an normal automatic transmission) to get your started, then shifts to the CVT.
@@davesutherland1864modern Corollas have an eCVT.
@@cartmann227 No, they have a Direct Shift CVT - that is described on the Toyota web page as well as many car reviewers. I assume hybrid corollas use an eCVT
Thank you, very good review and expanation. We ordered ours last year and apparently it is nearly here. Back in the eighties we had a DAF 66 estate which was very good in most respects but if driven hard only did 20mpg. My mother had the DAF 55 which suffered a turned belt which meant that one wheel was driven at a higher ratio - nightmare. A new belt sorted it. Your review has given me renewed excitement for when ours arrives.
Fascinating insight into Toyota's genius with Hybrids. I've had my RAV4 PHEV for over 3 years now and I love it. I can usually get 42 miles on a full charge although I normally only charge to 80%. (Perhaps you could look into this 80/20% charge discussion I hear a lot about). One observation though, I don't think that the MGs reverse direction when regenerating. If electricity is applied, they are a motor. If you spin them, they generate electricity. Both in the same direction.
Watched this and the in shop breakdown video you recommended and I feel like with both videos, I really understand the basics of the eCVT. Well done!
That’s great to hear 🙏🏻👍
Good that.you’ve produced this addendum to your original review and explained how the gearbox works. I’ve owned various automatic cars and found the CVT equipped cars to be the most efficient and smoothest gearboxes.
Just to mention one of your previous comments, on perhaps a different video, about the camera rear view mirror making your eyesight "Dizzy", I experienced the same issue, but by adjusting the mirror on its ball joint further away from you, does help. Also moving one head back further away does help
For me the biggest issue is that when I am stopped at traffic lights the car behind looks like it is my car with me
Overall it is much better than the thick rear pillars that obstruct the rear view quite badly
In the 1970s I owned four DAF cars that were driven by real rubber belts.The Toyota POWER SPLIT ECVT is mechanically the most elegant variable transmission available. No friction clutch or steel belts are needed
I’m so pleased I found your channel. I’m about to buy a Suzuki Across which will have exactly the same technology, I was concerned about the ECVT and it nearly put me off choosing the car.
Glad to be of help 👍
Had one of these for three weeks whilst they fixed my Renault. Charged overnight, used during the day, managed 80+mpg. Also, was surprised how much it was able to recharge the battery whilst moving. A lot of plug-in hybrids don't do this very well at all. If only I could afford one...lol
Crown and Camry hybrid owner here for last 6 years, also had a Prius with 365k miles and ecvt drivetrains are bulletproof and smooth as silk so would never return to manual. Crown has around 350bhp so ecvt can easily handle high power\torque too.
The next step for these cars (I think) is to reduce the size of the engine and fuel tank, and increase the size of the motors and batteries, something like the bmw i3 range extender, would be a popular way into the ev world for many. 150mi on ev + 250 on petrol REX would be great.
Yes I agree. However for myself I could live with a realworld range on EV of 60 real miles so I would say to Toyota to optimise the battery tech and efficiency if possible to get a bit more out of the battery only mode. But great shout at least were progressing.
Plus one for this. For me 100 miles "real" range would be enough though (60 below sadly not enough though). Tantalisingly I think the Mazda MX-30 might be released as a Range Extender, using a rotary engine to charge the battery. But... it's such an impractical design (eg. passengers can't get out of rear seats without inconveniencing people in the front). Put that drivetrain in a practical car and I'd buy one.
The story can be told from MG1 rotation speed perspective and also from the torque splitting perspective. After all MG1 can be resisting or helping the ICE torquing while it rotates. Thanks!
I’ve driven several CVT cars, including an AC Invacar,, a Daf 44 and a Dodge Calibra, and hated them. I’m hoping to move to the USA later this year and having watched your video I am intrigued. I think I’m going to have to have a test drive in a RAV4 as Toyota sell them on the other side of the pond too. Thanks.
Thanks for another great video Pete. I have to say that after owning a Lexus CT200h and a IS300h a few years ago the CVT gearbox put me off buying another one.
For me personally a screaming engine note when accelerating hard and Lexus just don’t go hand in hand, but I suppose it’s good we don’t all have the same tastes.
Keep up the sterling work, best of luck with the channel.
Thanks for demystifying the RAV4 hybrid power train. My interest is that I'm waiting (in India) for delivery of a Toyota Hycross and the mention of e-CVT and the high RPM whine I heard during the test drive almost put me off. Your explanation has put things in perspective.
It’s an impressive drive train 👍
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Toyota's hybrid is a generation ahead of its competitors. I have never heard of someone having problems with Toyota's RAV4 Hybrid e-CVT.
Really ? Maybe read the comments below 🤷♂️
Always love your honesty PP. Also great how the trainer and engineer in you broke that all down! It would take a little getting used to I think.
An excellent explanation of Toyota’s ECVT transmission and why it is superior to the standard CVT transmission. I own a 2022 Toyota Highlander Platinum Hybrid AWD and I wondered about the high revs as well. Maybe that is why my car gets 35mpg highway and 35-37 mpg city and it’s a 4600 lb. 3 row seat vehicle.
Thanks 🙏🏻
New eCVT owner here. I can see why first impressions can put people off with this transmission. It has a bit of a learning curve to drive it smoothly.
I’m just over the 5000 mark on my xse, I never really understood the inner workings until today, I knew already that it wasn’t a conventional CVT but I wasn’t sure if the high Revving nature Was completely normal until I talk to the dealer, but now I fully understand and I love the mpg, Anyway thanks for the time you took to fully explain it
Excellent walk-through! I recently tried a RAV4, did definately not like the roaring engine. But - I will try again and give it some more time.
I test drove a dynamic premier edition today and this explanation has been really helpful. I also have a ‘21 Yaris which replaced a CHR. Now used to the sound of the cvt box. Will order the RAV PHEV tomorrow!
What is interesting is the throttle does not control the engine anymore. The revs and load will be controlled, resulting in a longer life and lower wear and risk of failure.
As for comfort and smooth, try an RX. Even more so. I have one and it is such a wonderful drive.
Well done for making a follow up video… saying ‘you got it wrong’ but that’s what learning is all about. And now your better informed and so are we. Good job 👍
Indeed 👍
Brillant explanation Ped, I have 17 plate Rav4 Hybrid and really didn't like the CVT due to the high revving of it, but just didn't understand why? until now from your super clear explanation. I am due to upgrade and wasn't sure which car to get next, you have now just convinced me, it's a plug in Rav4.
Thank you.
Land Rover use the ZF 9HP in a similar-ish way, for gear 1 at least. This gear is never used in normal driving, but if you select an off-road mode, then suddenly the engine revs rise for very slow forward motion. However, the engine is now in peak torque mode using gear 1 to help get it over the obstacles. This allows them to get round the lack of a lo-range box on the Discovery Sport/Evoque.
I am glad that you looked deeper into the issue that was troubling you about this great car, and now appreciate the qualities.I suggested that when you first picked up the vehicle that this would be a car that you would consider buying for yourself. Of course that would take away the need to create more really good content for your growing subscribers, so I guess it has to go back.
I used to ride a Yamaha R1 (2005 model) and found the high performance engine at low and mid rev range on gradients or for acceleration provided enough hustle while avoiding the gas guzzling power band, and I got more mpg (50±) than my long distance commute Triumph 800 xrx. Seems a similar effect to the higher than normal engine rev for better efficiency you describe. (Although lower than normal for a pocket rocket ; ) Thanks for both R4 videos as helped me decide what I want to replace my ageing and very fuel inefficient Honda CRV (which is also a fabulous practical car for family of 5)
Thank you for sharing your impressions about the RAV4 PHEV, your video was very informative and useful. Indeed, Toyota's eCVT transmission (also known as “Transaxle”) behaves --- acoustically --- very similar to traditional CVT transmissions. Note that I emphasized the word “acoustic”, because I am referring only to the noise, the sound, that the transmission emits. I am not making technical and/or mechanical comparisons between the eCVT transmission and the traditional CVT transmission with pulleys.
What bothers me about CVT transmissions in general (and this eCVT as well) is the noise they make, they remind me of a “household floor polisher”. A friend of mine has a RAV4 Hybrid and he solved this transmission noise problem by installing acoustic mats in the four doors and in the floor of the car. In fact, he installed a High-End sound system in the vehicle and in this process they used the acoustic mats to improve the sound quality. As a result, the car's cabin became more acoustically isolated from the outside and there was much less noise from the transmission working. So this would be an alternative solution for those who don't like the sound of the eCVT transmission (or traditional CVT).
So one solution would be for Toyota itself to improve the acoustic insulation of the RAV4's cabin. It could improve the insulation by applying acoustic blankets under the hood, on the wall that separates the engine from the cabin, on the doors and on the floor.
Remember that currently (2024) there are two entry-level versions of the RAV4, the XLE and XLE Premium, which do not have an eCVT transmission/gearbox. That's right! These two versions come with a “different” transmission: the traditional automatic with torque converter and 8 gears. But of course, these versions only have combustion engines.
Thanks 🙏🏻
with this video (i saw last one too) you deserve my respect and my registration. hello from bologna
Ah thanks man. Much appreciated 👍
Thanks for doing this video as a guy currently looking at a range of suv phev cars your first video review got me worried about this car but after this video it's helped clarify alot of things so won't be taking this car off my shortlist so quickly now!
@PetrolPed. Hi Peter. At 2mins 30 secs in the video you talk about the Motor/Generator. Please note, that the motor does not have to spin in the opposite direction to become a generator. Heres how it works: the Hugv Voltage Battery is connected to the inverter. That inverter will regulate the voltage to the MG up to increase speed, and kt will refulate the voltage down when the foot is lifted off the accelerator. That way electeical current is flowing because the MG now acts as a generator producing a higher voltage than what the inverter is producing, and power will flow to the high voltage battery. If you press the brake pedal, the inverter will further decrease the voltage. Now the electrical potential between the spinning MG2 and the inverter becomes bigger making the car brske harder and regenerate more power.
I have switched to rx450h recently after driving BMW for over 20 years and I must I am still asking myself the question why I haven’t switched to a Japanese car many years ago,cvt is something to get used to but now i don’t mind it at all, trust me Japanese know what they are doing,they are biggest car producers ,reliable,cheap to run and service it,never heard any problem about cvt gearbox,obviously u got to look after the car
Great Video Ped. I totally understand about the revving thing. My wife has the hybrid Kona and the thing feels like it changes down a gear going up hills even when going 70 on a motorway the revs pick up and it is so hard to get your head around why it's doing it. Now I get it. Thank you.
My pleasure Iian 👍
I’ve had my 2021 RAV4 Prime for three years now with 50k miles. Love it! Liked it right off though had anticipated feeling as if I was emasculating myself. It’s not a Prius-I was telling myself. So there was a chance. Love it.
Master your video, I feel like I know my car less well. Maybe less driving along that beautiful road and use some graphics. Maybe I’ll get that for the Weber video.
MG1 and MG2? Maybe add the actual mode (HV, EV, Auto or Charge) to the discussion.
Anyway, I’m liking your video and will subscribe. Thanks.
I was put off the car with the first video but my faith has been restored. I drive an iX3 and I'm done with range anxiety and charger rage on long journeys.. so I'm after a nice phev
One of the killer features of this system is that it's all metal. Nothing is moving anywhere, but stays in the same position it left the factory, it just spins at different speeds. So it's almost impossible to break this system. Also no clutches, no gears, no belts, no start motor, no alternator. VW group eHybrid has three clutches and a DSG with 6 gears, what could go wrong...
It seems the auto makers have fixed the problems of previous cvt transmissions. Hope they have a long efficient life on the next generations of auto's.
Ped, those explanations were very intuitive and easy to understand, thanks.
And I agree about pheasants, they are incredibly stupid! There’s a hamlet in the Chilterns literally called Pheasants and I can see why, the area is flooded with them and they seem to live more on the roads than in the bushes and trees
I recently purchased a 2022 Toyota Venza here in the states . I think it may have the same drive as your car , minus the plug-in mode ! I just know that with my first tank of petrol it managed 46mpg on and American gallon. 3.7 liters per us gallon as opposed to 4 liters per imperial gallon ! It is a brilliant car in my opinion .
Just a couple feedback points this time:
1) You refer to the motors running in forward and reverse. But they are actually running the same direction. In one part, what you seem to mean is the acceleration (rate of change in velocity) is in the opposite direction, even though the velocity is still forward. This is applicable when you talk about powering the vehicle vs. acting as a generator. In the other part, you are referring to overdrive. Again, the motor is spinning in the same direction, but it is slower than the wheel rpm, which “feels” a bit backward intuitively since it isn’t spinning as fast.
2) You wanted a bigger battery. That’s actually not a great idea. There are numerous problems to balance, and you hit on one (weight). You need to add several though. These include frequency of use, replacement cost, and the need to maintain fuel quality and engine function through regular use. With a 100-mile range most people would nearly always be using electric mode only. This means 99% of the time you are towing around a petrol engine and filled fuel tank with zero benefit. Worse, your fuel is destabilizing, eroding and coating internal engine and fuel line parts, and your seals are drying. With 100 miles of range you’d better off then removing the petrol engine entirely and doubling the battery again to 200 miles (or more) of range. Congratulations, you have re-invented the pure electric vehicle! ;)
Toyota instead balanced these factors in sizing the systems and hit on a configuration that is well optimized for typical drivers.
There is a video here on RUclips, about four minutes long (it's not long), which is very educational in showing the concepts of how the eCVT transmission works. It's worth watching. The title of the video is: How the Toyota hybrid planetary gearbox works (P410) - Academic laboratory at PUT
I don't understand why you'd have an aversion to mentioning other channels. Professor Kelly from Weber Auto gave the most amazing explanation of Toyota's eCVT. Plus you're going to get a load of "Petrol Ped brought me here" in the other channel's comments.
Thanks for that Pete - I'm thinking a long time about a PHEV and like you have never been a fan of CVT's, that's why a tried the Niro 'Plug In' because it has a 6 speed auto, but found it a bit under powered. I'm quite keen to try this one because it sounds really clever.
Thank you, Ped, for the video with an excellent explanation. My wife and I are probably very old)), so we don’t accelerate quickly, and we heard high revs maybe only once (?) 😀 But one day, having driven ~20 km at highway speed, I decided to press the "HV" button, and after 4- 6 seconds I heard a knock 3 times from below (front-left). - Maybe it's just a coincidence? Frightened, I returned to "Auto". This never happened again when my wife and I drove in HV mode.
Another time I was driving along the highway for 240 km (115-125 km/h), and after ~75 km the display showed “EV Distance to Empty” = zero. So, there was no battery charge left until the end of the trip. Then I turned onto a local winding hilly road, and after 22km the display showed "EV distance to empty" = 2km. So, it increased from 0 to 2 km, and I was able to slowly drive 2 km along cottage roads exclusively on electric power. By the way, we drive our 2023 RAV4 Prime SE (Canada) mostly in the city, less than 60 km per week. Although the weather is near freezing now, the "EV range to empty" is still 80-81 km after a full charge. We really like the RAV4 Prime.
Thank you for all the reviews for this car - extremely useful. We have one on order to replace our current 2019 RAV4 Hybrid. You have confirmed our thinking of EV for local journeys. Glad you like it. Happy New Year.
Glad to help!
the lesson is eCVT is not a CVT by the engineering but it works in similar ways to the CVT ... Having Driven both the Honda CRV (2015) model and I currently own and drive a RAV 4 Gas Electric Hybrid (2017) I'll be honest the Honda has a squishy CVT and I love the RAV .. and before both of these I drove a an AWD Pontiac Vibe (2005). these cars are all great ... but all had different sounds and feels ... they all took a little getting used to but everything new does.
Thanks for making this follow up! I currently drive the Outlander PHEV and it has that similar hi rev sound. I’m now looking to replace and was unsure if I wanted another ‘high rever’ but having seen your very honest follow up here I have a new appreciation and RAV4 here I come!
Great to hear 👍
I have had two Mitsubishi Outlander PHEVs... currently have a 2019 model. The transmission works in the same way as the RAV4 PHEV, and displays similar properties. However I think the RAV is probably the better vehicle in terms of quality and design, and certainly in terms of power output and EV only range. My Outlander lease comes to an end next year so I'm considering options. The RAV4 is on the list but its a huge increase in price to what I have been paying so I'm not sure its feasible. I might look at the Tucson PHEV, but im also considering extending the lease on the Outlander for another couple of years. If price wasn't an issue I'd go for the RAV4. Great video!
Great video regarding eCVT. This is a great car. On different topic: reading comments under your own youtube videos is really bad for your mental state.
Here in Australia the Toyota RAV4 hybrids use a chain driven CVT. Only the Lexus NX uses the eCVT (Planetary gears)
You have always been an honest reviewer so no surprises there Peter well done
👍
Some very high power farm tractors are now using Planetary ECVT transmissions
Well done Ped, good to see the learning curve!
👍
Thank you for the explanation. About 4 years ago, we had a Mini Countryman plug in hybrid, and got rid of it because the total range (ev+petrol) was so low. Mini/BMW put together a car with so many compromises, that is was not very useful. This RAV4 sounds like a much better designed package that is a better daily driver. Thanks for a great explanation.
Cheers Philip 👍
the combination of MG1 and MG2 and the planetary gears actually acts as a differential on its own.