Would like to see a video and hear your thoughts on wrist movement or lack of movement around contact. So many RUclips coaches are advocating a release or even a snap of the wrist around contact. It has been my belief that there is somewhere between no movement or the smallest amount of movement which happens without conscious thought. I think many think the wrist lag that you referenced in this video is a loading of energy and is released before and during contact. My belief is the wrist lag or extension is simply to get the wrist in the best position to present the strings to contact when you make contact in front of the body.
Yes, a closing of the racket face is a fundamental of the topspin stroke. This has been known and taught since the 1970s and probably before. Closing the racket face and letting the wrist lag or lay back are fundamentals that should be incorporated into all strokes from beginner to world class.
This guy's a really good teacher because he's aware and observes technical my new details and that's what it takes really to be a great teacher and great teachers by the way produce great tennis players
Hi Ryan, I have a similar technique with Delpo regards the wrist and the racquet going behind. This is giving me a hard time with timing and control (sometimes I close the racquet before de hit but sometimes it opens up). How can I work on closing the racquet?
Does the idea of pointing the strings down apply also to the one handed backhand? I always thought it did but I’m seeing Slo-mo videos of Federer, Thiem, Tsitsipas, Dmitrov.. and they all seem to have their racquets on edge the whole time.
Right close that racket face on the take back at 45° but what you're seeing here is possibly some lag this is what Roger Federer does so what he's doing is he's got to opened up because he wants a little bit of racket head speed it's called lag but right prior to making contact with the ball this is when he tilts the racket face slightly closed this puts the face at a 45° angle at contact this point he uses his forearm which comes over the ball and applies the top spent this is how the grades the game like Nadal Bjorn Borg the potro this is how they hit the ball
One of the greatest players on the tour and you notice I think it's because of his technique and one of those things is like the clothes racket face that produces the top speed on his floor and this is really beautiful and this is probably the only guy that ever beat Roger Federer in any given situation technique has so much to do with how good you are it's almost pathetic perfect practice is only thing that makes the perfect player
See at this point you're seeing the racquet close in the 45°. This is where he squeezes the racket face to keep this racket face firm at a 45° angle pointing downward which is a closed racket face when you see it closed racket face on it take back this is an indicator that your opponent's going to hit a top spin stroke
Yeah that's kind of lag is where all this talent comes in how good this guy's timing is I mean it's remarkable how he times the ball but if you know now after the lag just like del potro he'll have that racket in a firm closed position like a 45° angle and this is what he has to do as he applies that forearm and the hips come around to come over the ball to apply the top spin you might see his racquet probably coming up into vertical position maybe but then he'll probably wrap it around his body as a natural follow through
Right but it contact point look at the similarity between the two players almost every single player on the top tour has it closed racket face it contact but there might be a dislike a degrees off give or take a few degrees but we're talking around 45° a close racket face of contact when the top pros are hitting their top spin for hand
Lag is not for beginners or intermediate or even club players or even college players it is until you get on the pro circuit where you're you know it's good as Roger fed her or something that you're trying to be in the top 10 or something that you start putting lag on the ball because it's a very advanced movement
See the only thing that we need to look at here is the contact point this is the point where the racket face actually makes contact with a ball and then you can see the magic but if you're looking at the racket when it's fully taken back or on the follow through well it might disguise what he's actually going doing on contact point that's all matters is that millisecond when that racket makes contact only thing we should be thinking about is contact point first
See how he has the racket in the closed position on the take back Roger Federer on this freeze frame this is the position I have my racket but I am not as advanced as him so I don't have the lag which he uses because by the time I use the lag my timing would be so far off that I wouldn't be able to keep it in the court so most people at my level club level are going to be using just the clothes racket face on the take back but if I was in the pro circuit or something and that good with the timing then you start fooling around with the lag so that you can increase racket at speed prior to contact with the ball
Well to be fair it would be impossible not to slightly close the racket face when he initiates his swing .. he uses a full eastern grip so naturally his racket will stay more vertical then if he used a semi western or hybrid eastern ..
Haha. Pretty interesting he would make a video only addressing me but I digress. I never said del Potro didn’t close his racquet but it depends on the situation which he correctly says. His video prior IMO did not articulate the difference between a take back and position of the racquet face from wrist lag and hip rotation which would of course be somewhat closed. Again it is something that one can not control and is intuitive in nature. I criticized his comment about all balls sailing long and into the net if the racquet face isn’t closed completely and closer to on edge, which is absurd honestly. If having the correct fundamentals then what happens afterwards is a result of said fundamentals and one isn’t consciously aware of.
And if the purpose of the video is to address the confusion and to more clearly articulate what he wanted to say I have no issue with that. However if he’s making videos to simply challenge any criticism from a poster or other youtubers (he has done so in past) is another issue he should deal with. I could say more but not here to tear down any content creator…
You see everybody has different grips because everybody has different hands your hand size your finger size your bone structure of your hands everybody's unique everybody's different so every individual chooses is different types of grips like you might have Nadal with a semi-western grip on the forehand in the shake hands or you know the one where you frying pan grip from Southern California where you put the racket on the ground and you pick it up like a frying pan and what they do is they flip it over I played a lot of guys from Southern California if they're real heavy top spin for hands they call it the frying pan grip it's from Southern California
You see it's just a slight face tilt this is what we mean by closing we don't mean all the way closed we mean slightly closed and what this does is this is what has the tendency to come over the ball and this is what what number one player in Southern California I hits the ball this way take a look at some of the top college players how they hit there forehand with that close racket face and you'll start to wonder hey maybe I should do the same thing
No. It is not "all about grip". Agassi has a more extreme grip than Delpo. Notice that Agassi does NOT close... ruclips.net/video/EB2vGIc5oPQ/видео.html
If you look at del potro's forehand the only guy that ever beat Roger Federer this guy is absolutely amazing notice how he hits his forehand with a closed racket face on the take back
That’s because the Vic Braden coaching method “forces” beginners to adopt an Eastern grip which then requires a specific movement to close the racket face. Players using a semi Western (about 80%of all pros and advanced/College players) do this naturally and also players using a Western, which are far more than those who use an Eastern. Federer is closer to semi western than Eastern and uses open stances to create rotational power. Vic simply didn’t understand Western grips and the biomechanics of the open stance rotational swing, that’s why he liked to use Agassi as a model with his Eastern grip and the linear swing out of a neutral stance that is the core of the Braden method. Agassi produced significantly less topspin than players of today and even during his generation. Vic taught players and coaches to create a 30degree bend in the wrist at the ready position and keep it throughout the swing. Players today allow the wrist to layback naturally without any thought about how many degrees it is.
We’ll much of Vic’s research was done before short loose swings and players using the forearm prestretch. btw That was his ACTUAL fascination with Andre as he was one of the first to utilize this stretch/shortening technique. Also you should probably keep in mind that Vic was called “crazy” for telling people to use eastern when everyone was using continental. And Vic also said there is no perfect stance just the one for the right situation. And having worked with Vic at many of his clinics I can assure you we were all trying very hard to get people to close their racquet faces regardless of the grip. You are correct though much of the time when I tell players to close the racquet face they will try to do it with the grip. Vic did say that to gain the other benefits of an eastern you would have to work a little harder to close that face. Of course Vic would also say be your own coach and just take the information and research and do your best with it. Which is also why he would roll his eyes if anyone ever said “Vic Braden” system. 🙄 Wish more internet trolls got to meet Vic in person and see how open he was to these conversations. And no…Fed is on eastern.
@@JeffLewistennis Sounds like Vic would have been very saddened and disappointed hearing his “followers” making personal attacks on those who challenge his teaching ideas and methodology (calling them trolls). One of the frustrating and unprofessional behaviors of so many Vic Braden coaches I’ve met is the lack of flexibility in modifying and upgrading their coaching philosophy and skills, and that’s just not helpful to player development and enjoyment of tennis. We don’t teach kids in the classroom the way we did 50 years ago and tennis should be no different. Watching a bunch of kids standing in line waiting for their turn to hit a ball is disheartening. Watching a group of kids looking like robots with their elbows jutting out forced into Eastern grips with a 30degree wrist bend standing beside cones endlessly practicing 3 point landings and swinging their arm like a Ferris wheel at a ball sitting on a cone a foot off the ground is frightening. Who and why practice mastering a contact point below the knees? As for “short loose swings” there’s hardly a women on the WTA tour using ATP style swings, they have long explosive swings driven by core rotation. Tennis is an open sport with lots of room for flexibility around player development vs a cookie cutter one size fits all learning model. Btw, we can agree to disagree about Federer’s FH grip. It’s a composite grip, sometimes called a strong Eastern. Again, evidence of player hand anatomy, flexibility and preference. Re the video link below, do you think they coach kids in Spain, Serbia, Russia like this? If so, please provide a link. Please also take a moment to read the comment and replies to Steve Walters in the comments section of the video. Look forward to your response and thoughts, at least on the comments made. Note that they didn’t get a ❤️ from the channel or a response. What does that say about Vic encouraging conversation? ruclips.net/video/8PTd7Tfpv-I/видео.html
You seeing this is where the top pros in the world with their academies are wrong where they say the racket faces vertical in it at contact take a look at this photo would you say that that racket face is vertical contact or closed at contact and the answer is closed
Yeah we could go through every stroke in the book and I'll bet you money that you do every single one wrong and that's what boils down to technique once you make those technical changes you'll see how you really don't have to be a great athlete to be a good tennis player actually it's mostly all technique
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Great analysis, this cleared up a lot of misconceptions on delpo's forehand
Would like to see a video and hear your thoughts on wrist movement or lack of movement around contact. So many RUclips coaches are advocating a release or even a snap of the wrist around contact. It has been my belief that there is somewhere between no movement or the smallest amount of movement which happens without conscious thought. I think many think the wrist lag that you referenced in this video is a loading of energy and is released before and during contact. My belief is the wrist lag or extension is simply to get the wrist in the best position to present the strings to contact when you make contact in front of the body.
Excellent instruction!
Thanks for this! What program are you using to slow down and markup these videos?
Thanks Ryan, you are giving another key for better tennis 🎾..
Thank you Hasan!!
Yes, a closing of the racket face is a fundamental of the topspin stroke. This has been known and taught since the 1970s and probably before. Closing the racket face and letting the wrist lag or lay back are fundamentals that should be incorporated into all strokes from beginner to world class.
This guy's a really good teacher because he's aware and observes technical my new details and that's what it takes really to be a great teacher and great teachers by the way produce great tennis players
Bonjour.. pensez-vous que ses problems au poignet viennent de cette façon d'opérer avec la raquette?
Hi Ryan, I have a similar technique with Delpo regards the wrist and the racquet going behind. This is giving me a hard time with timing and control (sometimes I close the racquet before de hit but sometimes it opens up). How can I work on closing the racquet?
Does the idea of pointing the strings down apply also to the one handed backhand? I always thought it did but I’m seeing Slo-mo videos of Federer, Thiem, Tsitsipas, Dmitrov.. and they all seem to have their racquets on edge the whole time.
Right close that racket face on the take back at 45° but what you're seeing here is possibly some lag this is what Roger Federer does so what he's doing is he's got to opened up because he wants a little bit of racket head speed it's called lag but right prior to making contact with the ball this is when he tilts the racket face slightly closed this puts the face at a 45° angle at contact this point he uses his forearm which comes over the ball and applies the top spent this is how the grades the game like Nadal Bjorn Borg the potro this is how they hit the ball
One of the greatest players on the tour and you notice I think it's because of his technique and one of those things is like the clothes racket face that produces the top speed on his floor and this is really beautiful and this is probably the only guy that ever beat Roger Federer in any given situation technique has so much to do with how good you are it's almost pathetic perfect practice is only thing that makes the perfect player
See at this point you're seeing the racquet close in the 45°. This is where he squeezes the racket face to keep this racket face firm at a 45° angle pointing downward which is a closed racket face when you see it closed racket face on it take back this is an indicator that your opponent's going to hit a top spin stroke
Yeah that's kind of lag is where all this talent comes in how good this guy's timing is I mean it's remarkable how he times the ball but if you know now after the lag just like del potro he'll have that racket in a firm closed position like a 45° angle and this is what he has to do as he applies that forearm and the hips come around to come over the ball to apply the top spin you might see his racquet probably coming up into vertical position maybe but then he'll probably wrap it around his body as a natural follow through
Right but it contact point look at the similarity between the two players almost every single player on the top tour has it closed racket face it contact but there might be a dislike a degrees off give or take a few degrees but we're talking around 45° a close racket face of contact when the top pros are hitting their top spin for hand
How about on returning serve?
Lag is not for beginners or intermediate or even club players or even college players it is until you get on the pro circuit where you're you know it's good as Roger fed her or something that you're trying to be in the top 10 or something that you start putting lag on the ball because it's a very advanced movement
See the only thing that we need to look at here is the contact point this is the point where the racket face actually makes contact with a ball and then you can see the magic but if you're looking at the racket when it's fully taken back or on the follow through well it might disguise what he's actually going doing on contact point that's all matters is that millisecond when that racket makes contact only thing we should be thinking about is contact point first
See how he has the racket in the closed position on the take back Roger Federer on this freeze frame this is the position I have my racket but I am not as advanced as him so I don't have the lag which he uses because by the time I use the lag my timing would be so far off that I wouldn't be able to keep it in the court so most people at my level club level are going to be using just the clothes racket face on the take back but if I was in the pro circuit or something and that good with the timing then you start fooling around with the lag so that you can increase racket at speed prior to contact with the ball
Well to be fair it would be impossible not to slightly close the racket face when he initiates his swing .. he uses a full eastern grip so naturally his racket will stay more vertical then if he used a semi western or hybrid eastern ..
Your move, Bman Busee.
🎾😊👍
Haha. Pretty interesting he would make a video only addressing me but I digress. I never said del Potro didn’t close his racquet but it depends on the situation which he correctly says. His video prior IMO did not articulate the difference between a take back and position of the racquet face from wrist lag and hip rotation which would of course be somewhat closed. Again it is something that one can not control and is intuitive in nature. I criticized his comment about all balls sailing long and into the net if the racquet face isn’t closed completely and closer to on edge, which is absurd honestly. If having the correct fundamentals then what happens afterwards is a result of said fundamentals and one isn’t consciously aware of.
And if the purpose of the video is to address the confusion and to more clearly articulate what he wanted to say I have no issue with that. However if he’s making videos to simply challenge any criticism from a poster or other youtubers (he has done so in past) is another issue he should deal with. I could say more but not here to tear down any content creator…
He is one of the flatter hitters out there, but still closes the racquet face
it's open on takeback, that it what everyone means, nitpicking
You see everybody has different grips because everybody has different hands your hand size your finger size your bone structure of your hands everybody's unique everybody's different so every individual chooses is different types of grips like you might have Nadal with a semi-western grip on the forehand in the shake hands or you know the one where you frying pan grip from Southern California where you put the racket on the ground and you pick it up like a frying pan and what they do is they flip it over I played a lot of guys from Southern California if they're real heavy top spin for hands they call it the frying pan grip it's from Southern California
You see it's just a slight face tilt this is what we mean by closing we don't mean all the way closed we mean slightly closed and what this does is this is what has the tendency to come over the ball and this is what what number one player in Southern California I hits the ball this way take a look at some of the top college players how they hit there forehand with that close racket face and you'll start to wonder hey maybe I should do the same thing
Its about grip TBH. All top players like Delpo, tsitsipas and Dhruv has similar kind of racket back 😉
No. It is not "all about grip". Agassi has a more extreme grip than Delpo. Notice that Agassi does NOT close... ruclips.net/video/EB2vGIc5oPQ/видео.html
If you look at del potro's forehand the only guy that ever beat Roger Federer this guy is absolutely amazing notice how he hits his forehand with a closed racket face on the take back
it really depends on the height of the ball and what he wants to do with it
I’ve been teaching tennis for 22 years and can probably count on one hand the number of times a beginner naturally closed their racquet face.
Jeff you are 100% correct. Thanks for the support and keep doing a great job. Your content is awesome.
That’s because the Vic Braden coaching method “forces” beginners to adopt an Eastern grip which then requires a specific movement to close the racket face. Players using a semi Western (about 80%of all pros and advanced/College players) do this naturally and also players using a Western, which are far more than those who use an Eastern. Federer is closer to semi western than Eastern and uses open stances to create rotational power.
Vic simply didn’t understand Western grips and the biomechanics of the open stance rotational swing, that’s why he liked to use Agassi as a model with his Eastern grip and the linear swing out of a neutral stance that is the core of the Braden method. Agassi produced significantly less topspin than players of today and even during his generation.
Vic taught players and coaches to create a 30degree bend in the wrist at the ready position and keep it throughout the swing. Players today allow the wrist to layback naturally without any thought about how many degrees it is.
We’ll much of Vic’s research was done before short loose swings and players using the forearm prestretch. btw That was his ACTUAL fascination with Andre as he was one of the first to utilize this stretch/shortening technique. Also you should probably keep in mind that Vic was called “crazy” for telling people to use eastern when everyone was using continental.
And Vic also said there is no perfect stance just the one for the right situation. And having worked with Vic at many of his clinics I can assure you we were all trying very hard to get people to close their racquet faces regardless of the grip.
You are correct though much of the time when I tell players to close the racquet face they will try to do it with the grip. Vic did say that to gain the other benefits of an eastern you would have to work a little harder to close that face. Of course Vic would also say be your own coach and just take the information and research and do your best with it. Which is also why he would roll his eyes if anyone ever said “Vic Braden” system. 🙄
Wish more internet trolls got to meet Vic in person and see how open he was to these conversations.
And no…Fed is on eastern.
@@JeffLewistennis Sounds like Vic would have been very saddened and disappointed hearing his “followers” making personal attacks on those who challenge his teaching ideas and methodology (calling them trolls).
One of the frustrating and unprofessional behaviors of so many Vic Braden coaches I’ve met is the lack of flexibility in modifying and upgrading their coaching philosophy and skills, and that’s just not helpful to player development and enjoyment of tennis. We don’t teach kids in the classroom the way we did 50 years ago and tennis should be no different. Watching a bunch of kids standing in line waiting for their turn to hit a ball is disheartening. Watching a group of kids looking like robots with their elbows jutting out forced into Eastern grips with a 30degree wrist bend standing beside cones endlessly practicing 3 point landings and swinging their arm like a Ferris wheel at a ball sitting on a cone a foot off the ground is frightening. Who and why practice mastering a contact point below the knees? As for “short loose swings” there’s hardly a women on the WTA tour using ATP style swings, they have long explosive swings driven by core rotation. Tennis is an open sport with lots of room for flexibility around player development vs a cookie cutter one size fits all learning model. Btw, we can agree to disagree about Federer’s FH grip. It’s a composite grip, sometimes called a strong Eastern. Again, evidence of player hand anatomy, flexibility and preference.
Re the video link below, do you think they coach kids in Spain, Serbia, Russia like this? If so, please provide a link. Please also take a moment to read the comment and replies to Steve Walters in the comments section of the video. Look forward to your response and thoughts, at least on the comments made. Note that they didn’t get a ❤️ from the channel or a response. What does that say about Vic encouraging conversation?
ruclips.net/video/8PTd7Tfpv-I/видео.html
You seeing this is where the top pros in the world with their academies are wrong where they say the racket faces vertical in it at contact take a look at this photo would you say that that racket face is vertical contact or closed at contact and the answer is closed
Yeah we could go through every stroke in the book and I'll bet you money that you do every single one wrong and that's what boils down to technique once you make those technical changes you'll see how you really don't have to be a great athlete to be a good tennis player actually it's mostly all technique
By the way you're all charged $25 out of your Paypal account lessons are not cheap have a nice day