I used to think of you as a garage band guy who won't grow up. Now I am struck by how much you remind me of a daoist known as liehzi. I really like reading translations of him by eva Wong. So, I appreciate your quiet passion and your humility, it feels like liehzi.
Zen and Zazen (Meditation) have become synonymous in the West. Of course, one can go down the rabbit hole on the origins of 'Zazen' and understand that Institutional Zazen and religious/spiritual zazen are two vastly different things. Institutional Zazen is what the Japanese monastic has been teaching to prepare young minds for a life of Duty and Tradition. Keep in mind, that these young boys are going to inherit, or be appointed, to a family temple in which that is a career. Chinese Zen (Ch'an) does does not speak of 'Zazen' and denies that any posture that one assumes is holy or will make one holy. This of course is what you see in Indian/Bhrama religions of the mudras, postures, colors, scents and sounds. Religious Zazen is more of an attunement to Buddha-nature. This particular practice does not have any form (posture, mudra, or place). In this, one is free-form and not bonded to Tradition and Duty. This is what a lot of the old Ch'an Masters where getting at with many of the young monks who wondered why nothing was happening with all the Traditional and Duty there where engaging in. Most on the r/zen group on Reddit are well-educated and have institutional training and experience. To just brush them off casually is a massive mistake.
My Zazen practice has the side effect of anger-management. While I appreciate that some folks are looking for divine guidance and ''enlightenment'' I'm just trying not to explode when I lose a sock in the dryer.🙃
Alan Watts talks in his Zen book about how he couldn't find any references to daily zazen practice in the old texts. His conclusion was that you should meditate spontaneously when you feel like it. I always wondered how he came to such a different conclusion than most zennists.
I think that zazen was so well understood to be the main practice of Zen Buddhists that some of the earlier writers failed to mention it because it was assumed to be too obvious to need stating.
@@HardcoreZen That makes sense. But I will say, after having done zazen daily for years, it now feels strangely exhilarating to skip it once in while when the moment presents itself. Like a reminder of staying unattached and not superstitious.
There is no shortage of people who have meditated their way to a powerful awakening experience, only to come to the conclusion that the Meditation was never necessary. A fellow named Adyashanti comes to mind. Bankei’s statement is that the unborn is ever present, therefor there’s no need to meditate to “get there” and anybody can touch the unborn at any time, but to stabilize that state or experience definitely requires a meditation practice.
Weather you practice Zazen or not, we are not separate from the world and each other. Zazen can help us see this over time. Which is nice. Instead of always been pulled around by or judging thoughts. But whatever experience we have, delusional or awakened, it’s all a dream within a dream and is gone in a flash!
it's not that bankei was for or against zazen, but that he thought one should maintain a zazen-like state of mind at all times. to him if one wanted to do zazen, they should. he thought it was absurd to make a special time for contacting the unborn only while sitting, and that one should manifest it at all times - obviating the need for special practice. he didn't require his students to do or not do zazen, nor to wake up at a certain time or do anything in particular. his students did in fact practice zazen, but he didn't enforce it. in fact, his awakening was the result of ruining his health with incredibly rigorous zazen practice, which probably had an influence on why he taught this particular message. he was also very strict in other ways. it's all about context. he wouldn't let anyone who hadn't completely grasped his teaching teach it. he did have a single dharma heir, but that dharma heir died unexpectedly. two good books on Bankei are "Bankei Zen" by Peter Haskel and "the Unborn" translated by Norman Waddell
One interpretation of Kobun Chino's "you don't have to do it" might be along these lines: if you look around the world at any given moment, there is no one that is forcing another person to do zazen. If one is ordained as a monk in the Zen tradition, one's community and/or teacher might exercise peer pressure to compel a person to do zazen as a function of their station. But generally, if one is sitting zazen, that action is completely a result of one's own choice. In this sense, the act of practicing zazen is total liberation from the expectation of the world. One doesn't "have to do it," but one does it as a result of all of their choices leading them to the moment of practice.
Thank you for this great talk. I always do zazen even though I sometimes wonder why. I was just thinking about Eckhart Tolle who seemed to wake up through deep suffering. I don’t think he did zazen but I feel we are lucky to have the practice 🙏😅
There are many practices to cultivate inner silence. Just as there are many compulsive habits to trigger monkey mind. There are also many unique individuals on the path to enlightenment. Maybe they have a proclivity towards a certain practice. The practice has value so long as it’s diligently pursued.
A classic example of circular reasoning. 1) If almost everyone has done it "who realized the way" it was done for that specific religious reason. It was commonly not accepted to have realized the way without having done certain things. In early chan that was still different up to Huineng who was confirmed having worked in tbe rice hut, not sitting with the others. 2) Furthermore: It must be a means to an end then. This argument is supported by the fan example: no fanning, no cooling. 3) Actually this is how zazen was viewed, as an upaya, a useful tool. Therefore it might either be given up at some point or be replaced by other tools. Though it seems to be the most effective one. 4) Finally, as others have realized enlightenment without zazen or even Zen, in other spiritual traditions as well as being non- religious, agnostic or whatever, it is shown that you may get there without it. Dogen's rhetorics are not without contradictions. He himself went to China to do a lot of zazen until his "body and mind dropped off". There was a means and a goal for him, too. When he then made zazen the equivalent of.awakening, this was forgotten, even by him.
"Dogen's rhetorics are not without contradictions. He himself went to China to do a lot of zazen until his "body and mind dropped off". There was a means and a goal for him, too. When he then made zazen the equivalent of awakening, this was forgotten, even by him. " Yes, that equivalency of zazen and awakening is Soto's deepest flaw.
Zazen is not a 'doing'...its an absence of doing. Just like silence is an absence of sound, and darkness is an absence of light. So nobody is doing zazen. But this not-doing requires physical preparation...strength and flexibility to become effortless.
An example is Tom. Tom is already Tom. But Jerry asked does Tom need to do Zazen to be Tom? The obvious answer would be of course not. We all are already Buddha nature so we don’t need to do anything to gain Buddha nature. But Buddha nature is veiled over by our mistaken identity (ignorance) that we are the body (5 senses) and mind (6th sense). So that we ignore who we truly are. Therefore we need Zazen to have this realization to uncover our Buddha nature. So it depends on who’s asking the question. For beginners who is seeking the way, then the answer is yes, you do need Zazen. For the ones who already got a glimpse of who they truly are. They realized that they are not the mind or the body. But is the Awareness (Buddha nature) of the body and mind. Then no, they don’t need it. Since you already are it, what is the point of keeping on seeking? You can still do Zazen if you enjoy it. But doing Zazen to be or to gain Buddha nature is incorrect. Doing Zazen to realize you own true nature or Buddha nature that already you is correct. So just depends on who asking. Are they asking to gain? Or to realize? Both question looks similar to each other but require quiet a different answer!
Zazen is good tool as a physical reminder of the what we are doing. When mind wanders of to tv you can clearly see that you are not on couch with remote in hand but sitting in zazen.😑
I think enlightened masters can express their subjective experience of the True Self AFTER sadhana, zazen, etc, which will differ radically from someone that has not practiced. They describe their state because people ask them to. For example, when enlightened people say that everything is perfect, someone that hasn't achieved enlightenment or done any spiritual practice can't understand.
After some people I know said seated meditation is navel gazing and folly, well, that's why I had to it right away. Matter of fact, I going to zazen right now. I can get by without doing anything talking to anyone - a good thing.
I can pretty easily understand why anyone would be confused as to why i'd want to spend so much time sitting in front of walls. But because i've become very familiar with it, i also know very well why i will surely continue to. - - - Why? - - - To bust on through the good, ol' barrier of words and concepts, of course! - - - "The foolish reject what they see, not what they think. The wise reject what they think, not what they see." - & - "When speech becomes silence and silence becomes speech." - & - "Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe, sir?"
A home leaver should be clear about the aim (of the Transmission of Mind) which has been handed down from time out of mind. For instance, Niu T’ou who was a disciple of the Fourth Patriarch and could preach (the Dharma) in many different ways, did not yet know the upper keystone, the Eye of which alone enables one to distinguish between heterodoxy and orthodoxy and the unauthentic and the authentic. And those who cannot awaken (to the absolute) learn only words and speech, turn their attention to the skin bag (the human body) and then proclaim everywhere they go that they know Ch’an [Jap. Zen]. Can they really help you escape from birth and death? These careless old masters will fall into hell with the speed of a (flying) arrow. Grand Master Huang Po
Well, attention has to be focused on our present moment circumstance in order to get "enlightened". Sitting zazen is a relatively effective way to go about it. Gurdjieff mentioned that two conditions are required, "intentional suffering and conscious labor". By "enlightened" I'm referring to experiencing the "light" of understanding with regard to our fundamental situation here, which entails suffering.
yes! a good way of putting it I think that if people are uncomfortable with ambiguity and paradox, they will never get Zazen ... until they do it. Then MAYBE they will get it. That's why you have to do it! But also, you don't! (you should)
My question would be, what if you didn't become a zen master? What if after working for Subarai (sp?) Productions in Japan, you simply moved back to Ohio and got a job at Krogers? Or did something else not zen related at all, not even in your own time. What if instead of practicing zen, you went the route of being a Protestant Christian, or not being involved in religion at all? Sure, you probably wouldn't be as famous, but is being famous worth it?
I don't know what would have happened if I didn't do the things I actually did. But I was offered a job in Japan at Tsuburaya Productions in 2009 and I chose to stay in the US and teach Zen instead. I often deeply regret that decision. But regret is an illusory emotion. It's often based on unreality.
@@HardcoreZen Whenever I think "I should have done X instead of Y. Then my life now would be better." I conclude that this is based on a limited amount of information. That I can't actually know that my life would be better if I did Y. My motivation in my question is, you must somehow think that zen is a better alternative to doing something else. Was wondering what that "better" is from your perspective.
So, simply do Zazen with effortless effort?. or while you talk, Ziggy does Zazen who is the Zen person? Ziggy may be asking Does Brad have Buddha nature?
![[EN]How to do Zazen](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n_vQVnlgJOI/mqdefault.jpg)
I feel that maybe the fact that you don't need to do zazen is what makes it so valuable when you do.
Yeah, well, i don’t need to punch myself in the face either….
My Roshi doesn't turn up late, he appears magically spouting poetic wisdumb
I used to think of you as a garage band guy who won't grow up. Now I am struck by how much you remind me of a daoist known as liehzi. I really like reading translations of him by eva Wong. So, I appreciate your quiet passion and your humility, it feels like liehzi.
10:34-10:43, lol, made my day Brad, thanks!
Zen and Zazen (Meditation) have become synonymous in the West. Of course, one can go down the rabbit hole on the origins of 'Zazen' and understand that Institutional Zazen and religious/spiritual zazen are two vastly different things.
Institutional Zazen is what the Japanese monastic has been teaching to prepare young minds for a life of Duty and Tradition. Keep in mind, that these young boys are going to inherit, or be appointed, to a family temple in which that is a career.
Chinese Zen (Ch'an) does does not speak of 'Zazen' and denies that any posture that one assumes is holy or will make one holy. This of course is what you see in Indian/Bhrama religions of the mudras, postures, colors, scents and sounds.
Religious Zazen is more of an attunement to Buddha-nature. This particular practice does not have any form (posture, mudra, or place). In this, one is free-form and not bonded to Tradition and Duty. This is what a lot of the old Ch'an Masters where getting at with many of the young monks who wondered why nothing was happening with all the Traditional and Duty there where engaging in.
Most on the r/zen group on Reddit are well-educated and have institutional training and experience. To just brush them off casually is a massive mistake.
My Zazen practice has the side effect of anger-management. While I appreciate that some folks are looking for divine guidance and ''enlightenment'' I'm just trying not to explode when I lose a sock in the dryer.🙃
Alan Watts talks in his Zen book about how he couldn't find any references to daily zazen practice in the old texts. His conclusion was that you should meditate spontaneously when you feel like it. I always wondered how he came to such a different conclusion than most zennists.
I think that zazen was so well understood to be the main practice of Zen Buddhists that some of the earlier writers failed to mention it because it was assumed to be too obvious to need stating.
@@HardcoreZen That makes sense. But I will say, after having done zazen daily for years, it now feels strangely exhilarating to skip it once in while when the moment presents itself. Like a reminder of staying unattached and not superstitious.
There is no shortage of people who have meditated their way to a powerful awakening experience, only to come to the conclusion that the Meditation was never necessary.
A fellow named Adyashanti comes to mind.
Bankei’s statement is that the unborn is ever present, therefor there’s no need to meditate to “get there” and anybody can touch the unborn at any time, but to stabilize that state or experience definitely requires a meditation practice.
Thanks, I haven't heard about Bankei. Sounds like an interesting Master!
Zazen - what a stupid thing to do, I love that 😀
Weather you practice Zazen or not, we are not separate from the world and each other. Zazen can help us see this over time. Which is nice. Instead of always been pulled around by or judging thoughts. But whatever experience we have, delusional or awakened, it’s all a dream within a dream and is gone in a flash!
...
Actually...
I think that fan metaphor is perfect.
I'm sold.
Its a training, like going to the gym or to school. True, you dont have to train, but things are better if you do.
it's not that bankei was for or against zazen, but that he thought one should maintain a zazen-like state of mind at all times. to him if one wanted to do zazen, they should. he thought it was absurd to make a special time for contacting the unborn only while sitting, and that one should manifest it at all times - obviating the need for special practice. he didn't require his students to do or not do zazen, nor to wake up at a certain time or do anything in particular. his students did in fact practice zazen, but he didn't enforce it. in fact, his awakening was the result of ruining his health with incredibly rigorous zazen practice, which probably had an influence on why he taught this particular message. he was also very strict in other ways. it's all about context. he wouldn't let anyone who hadn't completely grasped his teaching teach it. he did have a single dharma heir, but that dharma heir died unexpectedly. two good books on Bankei are "Bankei Zen" by Peter Haskel and "the Unborn" translated by Norman Waddell
One interpretation of Kobun Chino's "you don't have to do it" might be along these lines: if you look around the world at any given moment, there is no one that is forcing another person to do zazen. If one is ordained as a monk in the Zen tradition, one's community and/or teacher might exercise peer pressure to compel a person to do zazen as a function of their station. But generally, if one is sitting zazen, that action is completely a result of one's own choice. In this sense, the act of practicing zazen is total liberation from the expectation of the world. One doesn't "have to do it," but one does it as a result of all of their choices leading them to the moment of practice.
I don't need to do zazen! I can quit any time!
better go to an aa meeting then (zen?)
@@Sand_Bank_ gotta love their eight-step program (;
Thank you for this great talk. I always do zazen even though I sometimes wonder why.
I was just thinking about Eckhart Tolle who seemed to wake up through deep suffering. I don’t think he did zazen but I feel we are lucky to have the practice 🙏😅
There are many practices to cultivate inner silence. Just as there are many compulsive habits to trigger monkey mind. There are also many unique individuals on the path to enlightenment. Maybe they have a proclivity towards a certain practice. The practice has value so long as it’s diligently pursued.
True enough. If you want self improvement the old mountain daoists have all kindsa exercises and meditation techniques
A classic example of circular reasoning.
1) If almost everyone has done it "who realized the way" it was done for that specific religious reason. It was commonly not accepted to have realized the way without having done certain things. In early chan that was still different up to Huineng who was confirmed having worked in tbe rice hut, not sitting with the others.
2) Furthermore: It must be a means to an end then. This argument is supported by the fan example: no fanning, no cooling.
3) Actually this is how zazen was viewed, as an upaya, a useful tool. Therefore it might either be given up at some point or be replaced by other tools. Though it seems to be the most effective one.
4) Finally, as others have realized enlightenment without zazen or even Zen, in other spiritual traditions as well as being non- religious, agnostic or whatever, it is shown that you may get there without it.
Dogen's rhetorics are not without contradictions. He himself went to China to do a lot of zazen until his "body and mind dropped off". There was a means and a goal for him, too. When he then made zazen the equivalent of.awakening, this was forgotten, even by him.
"Dogen's rhetorics are not without contradictions. He himself went to China to do a lot of zazen until his "body and mind dropped off". There was a means and a goal for him, too. When he then made zazen the equivalent of awakening, this was forgotten, even by him.
"
Yes, that equivalency of zazen and awakening is Soto's deepest flaw.
Cool specs.
Zazen is not a 'doing'...its an absence of doing.
Just like silence is an absence of sound, and darkness is an absence of light.
So nobody is doing zazen.
But this not-doing requires physical preparation...strength and flexibility to become effortless.
An example is Tom. Tom is already Tom. But Jerry asked does Tom need to do Zazen to be Tom? The obvious answer would be of course not.
We all are already Buddha nature so we don’t need to do anything to gain Buddha nature.
But Buddha nature is veiled over by our mistaken identity (ignorance) that we are the body (5 senses) and mind (6th sense). So that we ignore who we truly are. Therefore we need Zazen to have this realization to uncover our Buddha nature.
So it depends on who’s asking the question. For beginners who is seeking the way, then the answer is yes, you do need Zazen.
For the ones who already got a glimpse of who they truly are. They realized that they are not the mind or the body. But is the Awareness (Buddha nature) of the body and mind. Then no, they don’t need it. Since you already are it, what is the point of keeping on seeking? You can still do Zazen if you enjoy it. But doing Zazen to be or to gain Buddha nature is incorrect. Doing Zazen to realize you own true nature or Buddha nature that already you is correct.
So just depends on who asking. Are they asking to gain? Or to realize? Both question looks similar to each other but require quiet a different answer!
Zazen is good tool as a physical reminder of the what we are doing. When mind wanders of to tv you can clearly see that you are not on couch with remote in hand but sitting in zazen.😑
"Not doing" is the activity or non activity of Zazen. You don't have to do it.
I think enlightened masters can express their subjective experience of the True Self AFTER sadhana, zazen, etc, which will differ radically from someone that has not practiced. They describe their state because people ask them to. For example, when enlightened people say that everything is perfect, someone that hasn't achieved enlightenment or done any spiritual practice can't understand.
After some people I know said seated meditation is navel gazing and folly, well, that's why I had to it right away. Matter of fact, I going to zazen right now. I can get by without doing anything talking to anyone - a good thing.
Zazen is a method and you don't need any methods. But it helps.
I think if you know the experience of zazen, you want to experience it all the time because it is the experience of enlightenment.
Cool I was just reading about benkei zen and wanted to ask.
I thought it was David Steindl-Rast who had an awakening after surviving the bomb but I'm not sure
sometimes i need a good humility reminder.😔
I can pretty easily understand why anyone would be confused as to why i'd want to spend so much time sitting in front of walls. But because i've become very familiar with it, i also know very well why i will surely continue to. - - - Why? - - - To bust on through the good, ol' barrier of words and concepts, of course! - - - "The foolish reject what they see, not what they think. The wise reject what they think, not what they see." - & - "When speech becomes silence and silence becomes speech." - & - "Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe, sir?"
Great questions!
@@HardcoreZen 🍎🍏Sweet! (i hope the teacher likes apples(?)). Sincerely.
@@HardcoreZen (also, there's a Breakfast Club quote in there. not directed at you, Brad. I just love that flick. me no want no trouble). 🥺
A home leaver should be clear about the aim (of the Transmission of Mind) which has been handed down from time
out of mind. For instance, Niu T’ou who was a disciple of the Fourth Patriarch and could preach (the Dharma) in many
different ways, did not yet know the upper keystone, the Eye of which alone enables one to distinguish between heterodoxy
and orthodoxy and the unauthentic and the authentic. And those who cannot awaken (to the absolute) learn only words
and speech, turn their attention to the skin bag (the human body) and then proclaim everywhere they go that they know
Ch’an [Jap. Zen]. Can they really help you escape from birth and death? These careless old masters will fall into hell with the speed
of a (flying) arrow. Grand Master Huang Po
Ah yeah. That wretched hive of scum and villainy...
Well, attention has to be focused on our present moment circumstance in order to get "enlightened". Sitting zazen is a relatively effective way to go about it. Gurdjieff mentioned that two conditions are required, "intentional suffering and conscious labor". By "enlightened" I'm referring to experiencing the "light" of understanding with regard to our fundamental situation here, which entails suffering.
yes! a good way of putting it
I think that if people are uncomfortable with ambiguity and paradox, they will never get Zazen ... until they do it. Then MAYBE they will get it. That's why you have to do it! But also, you don't! (you should)
Zazen is good for Nothing, as in 0. The ground of being. So it's good for touching the ground of being, perhaps?
Shout out to UCB!!!
Search for the one who either wants to do zazen or who doesn’t want to do zazen😮
But that’s probably a form of koan zazen 😅😅
zazen ruined my piriformis muscle😮
Mine too. Sitting on a meditation bench now…
Is that in your knee?
@@sighup124 no way without it😊
hip
@@Sand_Bank_ It's a hip muscle. Does that mean it's really cool and in the know?
My question would be, what if you didn't become a zen master? What if after working for Subarai (sp?) Productions in Japan, you simply moved back to Ohio and got a job at Krogers? Or did something else not zen related at all, not even in your own time. What if instead of practicing zen, you went the route of being a Protestant Christian, or not being involved in religion at all? Sure, you probably wouldn't be as famous, but is being famous worth it?
I don't know what would have happened if I didn't do the things I actually did. But I was offered a job in Japan at Tsuburaya Productions in 2009 and I chose to stay in the US and teach Zen instead. I often deeply regret that decision. But regret is an illusory emotion. It's often based on unreality.
@@HardcoreZen Whenever I think "I should have done X instead of Y. Then my life now would be better." I conclude that this is based on a limited amount of information. That I can't actually know that my life would be better if I did Y.
My motivation in my question is, you must somehow think that zen is a better alternative to doing something else. Was wondering what that "better" is from your perspective.
@@HardcoreZen your wife is probably happy you did 😂
👍
My cat is named Idéfix :)
So boring is zazen we hope someone will tell us we don(t have to do it anymore
my present awareness is nirvana but there's no nirvana 🙃
Can you do a Family Guy accent?
Probably not. That's New England, isn't it?
@@HardcoreZen The Master Google says yes, New England.
Brooklyn accent..
So, simply do Zazen with effortless effort?. or while you talk, Ziggy does Zazen who is the Zen person? Ziggy may be asking Does Brad have Buddha nature?
He probably is.
so basically shut up and sit down