How Did Brahms Play The Piano?
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- This is an independent research project I did over the last year, trying to reconstruct Brahms's performance on his famous wax cylinder recording. I'm very pleased with the results and want to share what I've found out.
References:
Brahms at the Piano by Jonathan Berger and Charles Nichols:
ccrma.stanford...
Interesting history about the cylinder:
www.cylinder.de...
My own academic writeup for this project:
osf.io/xq835/
Old Recordings:
Leschetizky plays Chopin Nocturne:
• Chopin, Nocturne No 8 ...
Pugno plays Chopin Nocturne:
• Raoul Pugno plays Chop...
Pugno plays Chopin Polonaise:
• Raoul Pugno plays Chop...
Pachmann plays Chopin Nocturnes:
• Vladimir de Pachmann p...
Saint-Saëns plays Beethoven:
• Saint-Saëns plays Beet...
Look at the book of the youngest daughter of Clara and Robert Schumann. Eugenie Schumann wrote a chapter about Brahms and she wrote also about his piano playing. I don't remember exactly, but she wrote about him not practising at all before concerts and not taking the score too seriously. She and her mother told him, he hat to practise, not to improvise. The book is well written and the chapter also offers a new view about Brahms as a person. I really liked it.
Absolutely right. Brahms grew up having to play in dodgy bars for a living so it'd make sense he took the improvisational approach. He could transpose pieces by ear while playing them just by taking a different root note, which he had to do once in a concert when the piano he had was tuned a semitone off during one of his piano concertos.
Eibenschütz said of Brahms that he "played as if he were improvising, with heart and soul, sometimes humming to himself, forgetting everything around him. His playing was altogether grand and noble, like his compositions."
thanks interesting! 🎶🎶🎶😊
True romantic, receiving inspiration in real time
This an excellent video; I would take issue with one (repeated) point, though. The assertion that shortening long notes and lengthening short ones “wasn’t done and furthermore sounds like shit” isn’t accurate in the least. String quartet players from that school were taught routinely that “the short notes must ‘explain’ the music; time necessary for them to fulfill that function must be taken from the long notes.” This technique is an old Austro-Hungarian maxim, which we were taught by musicians brought up specifically in the Brahms / Schumann tradition.
This is exactly the playing style of my grandmother, who was a pianist trained in the 30's and 40's when this playing style was probably still alive. She would dislocate notes and change the tempo extensively while playing from notes or doing her own arrangements. I definitely have to check some of those old recordings you used to show those techniques. Anyway, brilliant work!
There is no arranging here, his objective was to match the score as it was written and it worked out.
Brahms was notorious for having his own way with the tempo, and in chamber ensembles this frustrated his peers to no end. :) Also, he very much _did_ improvise on these "Hungarian" dance themes quite a lot, and was slow in finally writing them down for publication. They were an escape from painstaking craftsmanship that were, for a while, used mainly for personal fun at parties.
It should also be mentioned that they were popular tunes of the time, not original Brahms compositions.
Jan Swafford mentions in his Brahms biography that chamber groups were often frustrated by Brahms' rubato and improvising in performances, as well as his loud vocalizing and grunting.
@@mwhite6522 Such a phenomenal read.
Radu Lupu playing Brahms piano concerto no 1 with The Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra from 1996 video RUclips! This IS The Best Brahms playing ever! Lupu a class of his own!!
@@RaineriHakkarainen :I'll give you that one; Radu Lupu, a matchless pianist. But, the Brahms 1st. ?? My wife presented to me the only gift I wanted for my 24th birthday. I'd only heard of Sviatoslav Richter at the time. But being in virtual love with the instrument, thanks to William Kapell and Horowitz. I was curious. Richter's performance of Brahm's 2nd concerto with Eric Leinsdorf?? Well, I'm an old man now. And it remains possibly my most cherished birthday present. The sound of the piano is just GLORIOUS under his hands. If you dont have it, get it. This concerto is a testament to Brahms as a pianist when he was a younger man, obviously. Even Mischa Dichter had to consult Richter on the right technique to accomplish certain passages in the first movement. And the scherzo?? How did he ( Brahms ) think of that ending. The concerto brings me to tears. No wonder his name ( is ) Brahms.
Well done, and good reconstruction. Brahms' music was obviously very emotional, and without tempo changes, would sound lifeless - a fault found in many modern performances. It's as if modern performers never had a genuine emotion in their life - worse than robots, as robots have an excuse. The video called "Debussy plays Debussy" is instructive and ear-opening as well. Thanks for having the courage to bring to life the music as it was intended.
Thank you for defining the human beings of the last decades...
And in spite of not having emotions, they consider themselves enough qualified to say what is good or wrong in Music..., the music created by the Greatest Geniuses of the past with the deepest emotions, totally oposite to them... Just Amazing
I wonder what would say the "great" Pollini if he would Heard an hypothetical recording of Chopin... Totally wrong! Orribile, non rispetta lo spartito. Sbagliato!
2:22 is my favourite moment in music education on music
I didn't expect to hear Camille Saint-Saens playing Beethoven. amazing.
It's been the fashion with musicologists to pooh-pooh those piano rolls. But I suspect they can tell us a lot about performance practice of the time.
I'm a music librarian at Sydney Conservatorium of Music and work closely with Prof. Neal Peres da Costa. We are very pleased to hear that the Peres da Costa's book OFF THE RECORD (Oxford University Press, 2012) helps inform your finding. Your presentation is very good, well researched and valuable. I am very impressed. Thank you for posting and sharing your knowledge!
Wow thanks very much! That means a lot
I certainly want some of these practices back in classical music. My and my, how dull we have made it, compared to what it used to be.
This was really fine. I can so easily imagine that Brahms played that way. Makes perfect sense.
Absolutely brilliant video. I don't pretend to have any special interest in Brahms other than knowing of his music, but to see you applying such knowledge and incredible investigative logic to decode what was originally played was really interesting!
I also can't believe how easy you made it to follow such complex and advanced musical theories. The on screen visualisation of the notes, again while I didn't understand them, I understood watching the timer move along coupled with your audio. And all in under 10 minutes.
Really excellent stuff!
Agree with you, and he doesn't waste time like so many other videos where they spend 90% of the time telling you what they are going to explain at the very end.
It surely sounds like a man really enjoying playing the piano. Trying, creating and daring looks like his fundamental ingredients. This is what makes the huge gap between Brahms and people only playing the exact score. This gave me allot of new insight for continuing my piano journey
He's only doing what Liberace did.
This is virtually the same tempo Brahms' friend Joseph Joachim played it on the violin. You can find his 1903 recording on RUclips.
quality content!
People who write new music are allowed to change their minds and ways of playing. Even Brahms!
That’s racist!
@Adrien
Everything is racist (according to woke google.)
Just search literally any word in the english language followed by "racist".
@@AlexVonCrank How is it racist?
This is amazing. Enjoyed your really excellent scholarship here, and your comedic timing is spot on. Make more! Thank you for this!
Absolutely brilliant!! You’ve helped rediscover a piece of history - please do more!!
Gorgeous video! I've been always fascinated by this recording by Brahms.
amazing video! please make more on Grieg, Debussy, and other historical interpretations by the composers themselves. Great job, you already got your place in musicology history. Best wishes
Yes! More more! How about playing some historical music using these techniques?
Emil Danielsen Yes certainly, I've been practising dislocation for about a year now and you can hear it in a lot of my recordings. Hopefully one day I can do it as well as the experts
I don't even have much of an interest in piano music, bar listening on occasion, but honestly this was an excellent 10 minutes. I was fascinated.
Thank you James, people like you keep art alive.
YOU'VE COMPLETELY TURNED THE WORLD OF WAX CYLINDER MUSIC INTERPRETATION ON ITS HEAD
Thanks I’m so glad I didn’t have to research all this because it’s been on my list for 8 years
I was skeptical of this when it started but it's actually excellent, brilliant explanations. I'd love to hear your analysis of some of the students of Clara Schumann I've been listening to and wondering how they could play the way they do because it sounds so different from how I'm used to hearing Schumann and Brahms.
9:27 love that little bit of Chopin op.23 coda
Thank you!! This was and is a very intersting music story for me.
Your research is phenomenal.
Brilliant!!! You just pointed a fact that most people are unaware of...the same is true in vocal art with different schools and characteristics. Chopin had vocal bel canto as a reference...The concept of interpretation and artistic sense underwent major changes...Pugno, Koczalski and de Pachmann, just to name a few, are not "eccentric". De Pachmann's playing was, according to Liszt, very similar to Chopin's own...
this vid is incredible, please make more
Many thanks for your great work in decoding Brahms's playing! One observation: The very much shortened note at the end of the long phrase sounds exactly like the effect Brahms's friend Joseph Joachim achieves in his violin version of that piece. I am sure they tried to play it similarly in that place. The effect is a bit like that of howling.
Yes, I thought this was amazing, and I'd love to see more. I am also fascinated by Brahms as a composer and wish there was more content on him. Best of luck!
Perfect analysis! I've been wondering about this recording for a long time and this analysis is the only one that makes sense to me!
I keep coming back to this video not just because it’s so informative but because I find it very inspirational. It’s a shame how much we are missing out on with modern performance practice.
Brilliant! I'm sure it took an unimaginable amount of time to work through this, but very so worth it. Thank you. I wonder how these techniques (dislocation) would have been used in the concerti when played by the composer?
Damn, this investigation work is incredible.
Most musicians don't know that rhythm was much more loose in the 19th century than they are taught. Composers often complained about how performers would be rather free with the tempo, while at the same time composer-performers would take just as much liberty with the tempo as the regular performers.
Wonderful, meticulous and very useful work, finely freeing the musical interpretation and bringing it "back to its sense" thank you so much!
Excellent- this is wonderful- thank you for this. I’m currently surveying they early Liszt opera fantasies and am currently enveloped by this world and these performance practices. 👏🏻👏🏻
2:20 Quote of the day! 😂😂😂
This is an outstanding work of scholarship and musicianship
Wow. Great detective work! I think would never have the patience to do this video) You are very passionate about the subject!
Fabulous work. Congratulations. I think it sounds MUCH more romantic.
I am glad that I ran into this video, though it is four years old. The research is very illuminating.
Excellent work James, as somebody who's doing a PhD in reconstructing American Harp Guitar performance 1890-1920, I totally agree with your conclusion. Please do more videos about historical performance reconstruction and hopefully a greater understanding and appreciation of music of this period will come about.
Да, очень ценно то, что Вы анализировали. Просто бесценно. Браво!
Really brilliant scholarship. Thanks so much.
I have been wandering about the recording for quite a while and thought maybe Brahms was distracted since the whole concept of recording was so new. Not to mention I have read various accounts of him forgoing practice later in life and often missing notes. Either way I wish the recording was in better shape. This is an interesting and sensible take on it. Thanks for sharing.
Mozart said the left hand should keep the beat, with rubato in the right hand. Chopin advocated the same.
This is very eerie
I read in Roland Gelatt's book From Tin Foil To High Fidelity that at this particular recording session, when Brahms listened to the recording, it was noted he 'fainted dead away'.
In the words of Artie Johnson, "very interesting!". I found this intriguing. Thank you for the post.
You are an amazing pianist; very informative video. You should have 813,000 subscribers!
Wonderful!!! Clever, probing, intelligent content and also crystal clear verbal and visual exposition without an ounce of fat. MORE! MORE!
Thank you for sharing. I hope you make more videos.
Thank you! I'm very interested in these same problems, and i think you did fine job, and A LOT of work to make this video. Well done!!
There still was an expectation in those days that the performer was a co-composer. That is to say, that much like the Baroque and Classical eras, performers were free to interpret the score in their way - even to the point of improvising on and freely interpreting the score! The fact that Brahms does this, shows that this was the excepted convention of the day! No boring metronomes and stuffy editors to tell you how to play! Music is about interpretation and cooperation with the vision of the composer - if we all play like midi recorders music loses its joy and magic!
What an incredibly insightful upload! Many thanks for posting this. I had been wondering how Brahms would have played his own works and your explanations and musical examples give a great insight. Fabulous!
Found you while reading 'The Science of Music by Andrew May'. A really interesting video and break down so thank you!
What a wonderfully fascinating discussion!
As a trained music historian and an experienced pop/Jazz pianist I can never understand the aversion most classically trained people have to improvisation! I believe that improvisation has always been an integral part of music making. This is especially true among the composer/performers of the last two centuries. The only case for strictly adhering to a score is when the music involves ensemble playing. When a composers perform their own music as a soloist I have no doubt that they felt free to change the notes of their own music to suit the occasion or their mood at the time. No creative musician would willingly play the same piece the same way twice. That is, unless they have had adoration of the score drilled into them by their teachers. Composers have always published their music so that others could play and share it. They would not want themselves to be placed in a musical straitjacket that would cramp their own creativity. Interpreters of others music - like those whose recordings are played in this video - carried on this tradition in their performances. Sadly, this tradition was smothered post World War I.
Please make more. Absolutely fascinating
I love the sound of your piano and I always end up coming back to this video just to listen to you play!
Well done. Composers should watch this.
Thank you so much for getting closer!
Your left hand jumps make me appreciate you highly.
I loved your work on this recording, I think that your instinct and taste are good on this piece ; excellent work
I think you got it as you Brits would say “spot on!” This turned out to be a remarkable video! Also it was not possible to record much, or even any bass until Electrical recording ( using microphones) began in 1925 listen to late acoustic recordings (other than Edison who did somewhat better with it) but your HMV, DECCA, etc Recorded before February 1925, and our Victor, Columbia, Brunswick etc recordings and the difference is startling! Best Regards and ThAnk You!
Really interesting presentation. You made a very good case for your point. Makes perfect sense to me and I've been playing and writing about music for over 40 years.
A lot of that playing is actually reminiscent of one of the greatest pianists who lived into the latter half of the 20th century - Cziffra! His playing had the most rhythmic freedom of any pianist, especially of that era. He was Hungarian and his recording of his own evolved improvisations on Brahms' Hungarian Dances were recorded in the 1980s. I recommend everyone check them out because they are original paraphrases - but the rhythmic freedom and expressive devices he uses in playing them are quite reflective of that Hungarian style plus that 'lost' old style.
You've done a hell of a good job!
Keep it up!!
You’re amazing! Thanks for posting this!
I think the analysis is correct, or close to correct. It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm hearing the underlying interpretation ideas, and they're consistant with the parts of the recording that are comprehensible.
I can hear hints of the other notes in there, so I think that with some careful work with music sequencing software and with score in hand there is still more that can be extracted and reconstructed from the recording. Also, tools such as fourier transformations and statistical analysis can extract information beyond the human ear, especially since we have a decent idea of the specific frequencies we're looking for (pitches of piano notes, though there are pecularities in the nature of piano tuning which must be taken account of).
Signal analysis is actually a heavily researched field, since we have a lot of interesting in listening to weak signals, such as from distant space probes, or transmitting data at a higher rate, which means fewer samples per bit, meaning it's more sensitive to noise. It's also very important in astronomy, where you're interested in faint distant objects or small exoplanets passing in front of stars and blocking a tiny bit of their light, these visible only as a statistical anomoly in the noise.
Analyzing a recording like this isn't an especially common usage of the associated math and algorithms, but the underlying principles are basically the same even if the data comes from an unusual source.
What an amazing video and well done with putting it all together.
the answers to your 3 Q's= Brahms didnt care. Today we idolize and slavishly perform music exactly as written, or God forbid, lightning from on high strikes us. Recall Mahler re-orchestrated Beethoven's 5th dramatically, adding TIMPANI to the legendary opening 4 notes. Today, you'd be booed off stage. Brahms was having some wine with his friends, in a light mood, hopped on piano bench and just went at it. Occam's Razor, no over-anaylizing or complications necessary.
That's the only RIGHT opinion!!!
Fascinating, but I'm a bit slow. I'm practising a Brahms piece for the Sherborne Summer School of Music next week: Intermezzo in E, Op.116 No.6. I love it.
A good job I didn’t stop halfway through, because you eventually made a very good argument. Thanks!
I applaud your energetic application of scholarship, intellect, dissatisfaction with explanations that are "absolutely convenient", and desire to get asymptotically closer to the truth. Even though I play the double bass (not a polyphonic instrument except to the extent that I occasionally borrow Bach from my fellow string players), this discussion provides food for thought that may inform my performance practices. Thank you!
Great research, thank you!
A most excellent and intriguing exploration. Thanks you. And, yes, make some more.
Thanks so much for your very thoughtful analysis.
Hello, this is really interesting. I only know the basics of music theory but not the details. But i'm really interested in old and new recording techniques. This cylinder is really damaged i can confirm. At that time the recording length was up to two minutes maximum. Sometimes this was speed up or slowed down in order to capture the whole duration of the music. Thanks for your knowledge and insight. It's not easy to hear the notes behind all this noise. Congratulations.
As Ryan Renteria said, quality excellent, academics are well done. I just had to subscribe to this channel.
Very interesting and intriguing!! Thank you for all the work you put in to make this video and thank you for sharing!
Where can we listen to the complete denoised version ?
This is Brahms pretty much drunk or recording device itself is way off to be at a stable speed, but you did an amazing job replicating those things. Now about tempo changes, this is something very important for performance but not excessive or accidental.
Awesome! Thank you for the knowledge, I hope to see more videos like this of yours.
I liked this especially in the light of Wim`s whole beat theory. I can accept less the whole beat theory in its purity than the flexible way old masters played their own and others music.
wait do you support the theory?
Honestly i do not fully understand. I just understand that according to Whim's claim old masters played at a lower pace than the metronom numbers suggest because of the whole beat (counting one instead of two). Sorry i am not professional in music🙂 but i love it.
@@bd4811 Ah ok I think I get you. the theory is most likely incorrect. and there's some fantastic videos on the channel called pianopat which goes into detail about it. (as well as a few on mine😉) and from. y own research it's all nonsense. of course you are welcome to do your own research and come to your own conclusions.
Oh you mean Wim “Flat-Earther Of Music” Winters
Very interesting video, thank! Was that the tempo Brahms played it, or has the tempo been altered in the recording process?
Robert Klein thanks! The playback speed also affects the key of the piece, so as long as it was recorded in the correct key we can be confident the tempo is accurate
Thanks. I suppose the pitch to which the piano is tuned might also have some effect (i.e. A=440Hz or 432Hz or even 415Hz). I'm fascinated with performance tempo and metronome indications of the 19th century, so I find this Brahms recording very interesting!
Very good video! Thank you for sharing!
Thank you - that was very illuminating!
Wow!
Awesome project with a really neat end result.
Subscribed.
Your way of telling a story is actually more interesting than the story. Congratulations.
I play my hands out of time on a faure piece and I love the sound of of it
8:40 playing
Hello I really enjoyed this video! Could you please make one about the other lost techniques, this is such a fascinating subject! Thank you for sharing this knowledge with us.
You have earned my subscription a hundredfolds
This is fascinating and your playing is superb. Bravo!!!
Holy shite this is incredible.
Thank you, James, for the evidence you have presented both here and in your academic paper. Thank you, too, for drawing attention to Neal Peres Da Costa's excellent book, Off the Record: Performing Practices in Romantic Piano Playing (2012: Oxford University Press), one of the most revealing books I have read about the changing fashions of music performance style. This example of Brahms playing his own music and those you provided of Leschetizky, Pugno and Pachmann playing Chopin and Saint-Saëns playing Beethoven are only a tiny part of the existing evidence that shows how regimented and conservative musicianship became as we progressed into the 20th century. I hope work like yours and Peres Da Costa's will lead us to rethink how music can be played. The notes as written on the page should not control how a musician can play a work, and anyone who approaches a score holding that belief is restricting themself and their audiences.
Brahms has a very great respect for Johann Strauss. Brahms always greatly respected the essential inspiration in music. His own playing was constantly described as being passionate and transporting.
A fascinating bit of research, I am a composer and had never heard of underdotting until this video. I bet you that Brahms had plenty do drink before the recording and just went at when they told him to play. I spend a lot of time composing romantic pieces for the piano (like Chopin or Tchaikovsky did) and the first thing I always do when playing it for someone (apart from having a few beers) is totally ignoring the sheet music. I don't look at it, I don't care about it, this is because if I leave it up to what I remember and keeping going if I forget something then I improvise and that improvisation on the original them will open upon new possibilities for expansion in the piece and new pieces to compose. And I have a funny feeling that many of the dead composers did the same thing when playing for their friends at home like me. You should try the same thing, its great fun.