A few nitpicky points, but since you seem to strive for a thorough explanation of each class, I thought I'd point them out. Wisdom above 13 (or below 8) provides a bonus specifically to the saving throw for spells (RC, p9, middle column near the bottom) so Mariko's Spell save would be 1 point better than her save for rod/staff in all instances. Also, a correction on when you take her to max level, you state her max potential damage is 56 points per round, but at 3d12 (+2 from Str) (max possible damage 38) x4 attacks per round, her max potential damage, assuming no crits, would be 152 points. VERY important note, regarding Gentle Touch. This ability affects creatures whose HIT DICE are equal to or below the Mystic's level, NOT their level. The difference between HD and levels is critical here, since for example, a 36th level Fighter, is still only a 9HD creature. Always enjoy seeing a new vid come out from you Berserker, keep up the awesome work in bringing BECMI to a new generation of players!
Goddamit! I do tend to make those math mistakes. I think it’s just a quality control issue vs wanting to get the video out. Thanks for pointing out. Will pin this post. As for HD, I take the point but, in my opinion, I believe the intent would include levels, as 36th level anythings could be Charmed or Held with no save. I think that’s too powerful. Thanks for the comment and keeping me on my toes!
@@becmiberserker Hey Berserker, just some followup...I think you are right on your assessment of the intent...I went and looked at the entry in the original Master level rulebooks, and they refer to levels and HD interchangeable for the Mystic even at 16th level (which exceeds the number of HD they have) so I believe you are correct in your interpretation of how they had meant it, and someone just forgot to adjust the wording as they were filling the class out for the RC. Thanks for teaching an old dog a new trick! Can't wait to see the next topic.
@@becmiberserker Another reference I like to use to correctly point out them erroneously using HD and Level interchangeably when they are not, but definitely mean level instead of hit dice, is Polymorph Self. It mentioned a Wizard turning into a Frost giant, but uses the term "Hit dice" in the spell description. But a Frost Giant has 10 HD, more HD than a wizard could ever get, capped at 9. The writers just constantly mixed up their usage of the two terms because, up to level 9, they /were/ interchangeable. At least, that is what I imagine happened.
I learned about the mystic class when I bought the Rules Cyclopedia, since I didn't own the master set at the time. It didn't give me the best of impressions. Not only it was weird, but it also had far too many limitations. Each and every thing it gets comes with a hindrance attached: it is good with unarmed combat, but sucks with weapons, it can be acrobatic, but only with a heavy XP penalty, it can move faster and has improving AC, but can't use any protective item, it has some fighter options, but less hit points, it gains immunities, but somewhat sucks at saves... And it has both the demihuman's capped level and the druid's "fight for advance" stupid limitations. I felt no urge to use it in my campaigns, nor did my players want to use it either. Actually, monks appeared in AD&D 2nd Edition too, only not in the Player's Handbook. There was a fighting monk kit which somewhat sucked in the Completes, but also a really good new monk class for the Priests group in Spells and Magic, which made good use of the new spell spheres from Tome of Magic and the expanded weapon Mastery and revised unarmed combat rules from Combat and Tactics. It was fun to play and it could work as a specialty priest for several kinds of deities and phylosopies. Unfortunately, when the monk class was officially reintroduced as a core in 3.0, it was heavily based on the mystic class. This made for an unfortunate and poorly balanced class, with many problems and not a clear place in the game. They still try to fix it today in the latest editions, with limited success.
Since Diablo 3 my monks have a similar background - essentially Eastern Orthodox monk. Far enough to be strange but no so far to be ridiculous (like Japan). I would also count Friar Tuck as an example of an Occidental monk/mystic.
I've always enjoyed the idea of these types of progression mechanics for certain classes; its very 'Highlander'-like and adds a sense of diagetic progression and promotion to a character. My SO played a Monk in 5e, and we used something similar, although not as rooted in the progression mechanics, as a sense of defeating and stepping up in the knowledge of the elements. Great video, and I always enjoy seeing your characteristic thumbnails on the feed.
Back in the day (early 90s?) my brother's cleric got liquified by a black dragon so he rolled up a Mystic instead. He was lured by the attraction of all the special abilities but i was (and remain) slightly sceptical. I still don't like the idea of fighting your way up the levels and hierarchy, although I acknowledge it's a good way to generate new adventures. The opposing martial arts from the Masters Set was definitely interesting. It introduces the idea of lota of different martial arts without going into major rules differences.
I have always avoided monks, regardless of the editon. The only time I had a monk in the group was in a campaign in Rokugan. Definitely not a fan of the class, but I enjoyed the video anyway! Thanks for another detailed and entertaining explanation :)
Great video as always, a few points from someone who's played a lot of RC and BX in the last few years... The thing with mystics is they are extremely reliant on having awesome stats, and not just because of their lack of protective gear. That challenge at lvl 9 is no joke and in some games can effectively be a mystic's level cap, as the level 10 mystic gets a higher Thac0, better damage, better AC, and that is hoping your DM doesn't give them stats above their baseline, if they also have good stats, your chances of winning that fight can rapidly dwindle to less than a 50/50 chance. This mainly becomes a problem when you are running actual adventures as a Mystic. In our campaign we have been running for a few years now, someone was playing a mystic, had gotten to level nine at about even pace with the rest of the party, did the challenge and... Lost. Hard, despite having better stats than the 'master', the level gap beat him down. This was after having to wait several In game sessions stuck at level 9 to find that master to challenge in the first place. After that, he then had to wait even more sessions, since we on an ADVENTURE, so there wasn't downtime to wait around 3 months for him to try again, so we go through multiple adventures, gaining a lot of exp along the way. We had allowed him to gain exp 'over' his level cap, so if he did win his next challenge, at least he wouldn't miss out on all that exp. Finally, due to travel times during the adventure, 3 months pass, and he can try again, the DM thankfully set up a master practically right in front of us at the same time for him... And he just got smashed again. Bit closer, but still destroyed. This wasn't a weak mystic either, 18 Dex 18 STR, the 1 level difference in unarmed combat can just be huge sometimes combined with slightly less lucky rolls. So he had to wait another 3 months at level 9, we did more travelling, more adventures, more fights, everyone else levelling up except him. This time, however, before his 3 months were even up, we ran into an undead beholder, and he was zapped with the no save no hit-roll -2 Level drain, and drained not only all his accumulated excess exp, but knocked him down to level 7. This utterly broke his spirit to play the character at all, when there were characters in the party who were level 12, 15, a cleric was even in their 20s. He ended up entirely retiring the character and started playing something else the DM let level boosted up with the party, not a mystic, but the point of the story is thus, Doing a challenge at /every/ level beyond 9 in an adventure is just not feasible in practical gameplay. I don't even think the challenge at level 9 barring getting very lucky ends up being do-able if you aren't playing a purely sandbox game where entire parties are perfectly content to wait around 3 months for you not to fall behind. ... Also you neglected to mention that (Although not usable in the the level 9 duel) the real powerhouse of the Mystic is weapon mastery combined with their multiple attack option is utterly disgusting. And HASTE with their multiple attack option is utterly disgusting, since Haste /doubles/ all attacks, not just adding +1. Give a mystic weapon mastery with the normal sword, two handed sword, a polearm, you have a lethal fighter. Or, if you want to be cheeky, go with a longbow or heavy crossbow, you don't get the multiple attacks, but you can likely outrun most enemies and can just run and shoot most of the time before they could catch you. And even if they do catch you, then you can just start punching. Great video all the same though! If I had any comment, it would be how amazingly lucky all the characters are with the supposed '3d6' rolls, as that has always been my biggest complaint about the stat rolls. Sure, sometimes, and one or two players will have awesome pairs of 16s or 18s, But playing strictly 3d6 down the line, you'll also have characters I called 'Bob', which are 0s down the line, maybe a single +1, And maybe a single -1. And those characters aren't terribly fun in my experience, /especially/ in a party with someone with those 16s or 18s, and if that someoen shares your class too. You feel that difference every time you do basically anything. It's why the classic joke of just keep rolling characters until you got a good set of stats exists for OSR. At that point, why not just pick your stats and skip the nonsense. Keep up the good work though, always fun to see someone talking about a game I have read and reread the rules on and still constantly find new spots of information.
Thanks, man. I didn’t go down the weapon mastery route because of time and that I’ve covered it before, but your take on the multiple attacks plus weapon mastery does make me feel think I should have considered this a bit more. I might add this to my wrap up video.
@@becmiberserker No problem! Also good to remember how much accuracy Weapon masteries can provide to bolster that relatively subpar Thac0 they suffer from at higher levels, And to consider that they can then also SMASH with all of those weapon-masteried attacks with that boosted accuracy! Weapon-master Mystics are a real menace!
Appreciated the Shogun reference, read back then way before the current series. I find amazing how much of this class one finds in later editions. The no-presence power reminds me of the epic prestige class in 3e, the Void Incarnate. I find interesting the donation mechanism for xp, which I forgot existed, like I forgot the opposite martial arts system. The challenge system reminds of the AD&D 2e Druids.
Excellence as usual! Thank you for all of the wonderful BECMI content. Between you and Wizard Deadloss, I am quite the happy BECMI fan. No one ever played a Mystic in my campaigns. Or a druid, for that matter. Which was a relief because I've always felt the class was extremely powerful once they hit 5th level and up. There's still time for it to happen, however!
I came to DnD with the Rules Cyclopedia so mystic was an option at my table from the jump, but in play it felt very unsatisfying, and nobody ever really wanted to stick with it when a fighter or elf could do real fighting so much better. Even the thief did better if the DM allowed you to scurry into the rafters and drop onto enemies to get the backstab bonus.
I never understood the restriction on magical protective gear, even the plainest ring of protection. 🤔 I know "balance" but the level 16 cap does that. Scaling is wacky. I would handle the high levels similar to the druids, let the player choose an area and fight for it, or let it be random or a brand new area with nothing for automatic promotion.
I feel the mystic starts out very fragile due to the low level AC. Later it gets more respectable, but it's still something of a glass cannon when its extra attacks start coming in. And that's a melee ability. At least by then, it has a bunch of extras to make it worthwhile. Frankly, I'm not really a fan. I'd generally take a second fighter along over a mystic of the same level; except perhaps from about name level and up until the fighter gets the second attack at 12.
I've started a Mystic in a weekly game. I'll keep you posted on his progress. My first take is the mystic starts out with a long bow and uses his high Dexterity for the added hit probability. The long bow has a longer short range than a short bow. Presently when using the bow his thaco is a 15 if the target is within short range. Also if the mystic takes the skill Escape he then would gain a sort of Open Locks. Something you may have forgot to mention a mystic only gets XP for treasure when he donates it to the needy. Another limit is he must tithe 10% of his treasure to his cloister. RAW the mystic won't be leveling up as quickly as the other classes except for Magic users and elves.
I always liked the idea of the monk, I feel like most systems cannot get them right. I use the GURPS system based in Greyhawk but I enjoy your vids on BECMI
i kinda like the idea of more western style benadictine monks bring mystics as well, they do have a lot of crossover. Especially if you have a more western style campaign setting. of course, they are not as associated with unarmed combat, but the self cultivation austerity and general drive are similar. I also like how wrestling is strong against defence. it reminds me of how best japanese samurai and western knights often practices wrestling specifically to overcome other heavily armored samurai and knights when a lot of regular attacks would be ineffective.
You really should explain the difference between level and hit dice as gentle touch affects hit dice, and as far as I remember hit dice starts at level one and stops at level 8 for halflings, level 10 for elves, level 12 for dwarves and level 14 for humans. You would use those hit dice values to determine if gentle touch killed a npc or monster type.
Ooh! Really interesting point. This suggests that a 16th level Mystic could affect any character class of any level, as long as the comparative spell effect allowed it, as they would all have a maximum of 9 Hit Dice (8 for Halflings) as there are no Hit Dice gained at 10th level or above (your numbers suggest demihuman level limits, but not sure what the 14 for humans is). Whilst this is what the text suggests, I do wonder if it’s the intent, or if they missed mentioning levels also. I mean, the ‘no save’ element would make this incredibly powerful, even if a successful hit roll is needed, as the Gentle Touch is not expended on a miss. I wish I’d mentioned all this. 🙂
I think one needs to make the distinction of the 'Hit Dice' used to roll HP for the characters and Hit Dice when it comes to measuring the monsters. True, the characters stop rolling Hit Dice at level 9 (Halflings at level 8), but I think it is obvious that the level = HD identity is preserved even at higher levels. Thus, a 16th level Mystic can't shake the hand of the Empress of Alphatia (36th level Magic-user) and Charm/Kill her without a saving throw. As a quick aside, I very much dislike 'no saving throw' mechanics.
I think the no save accounts for a hit roll being needed, although that hit roll can be attempted again and again. This thread did make me look up the Death Spell again and it doesn’t affect creatures of 8HD or more, so there’s that.
If it were me, I have Acrobatic Mystics XP table being an actual thing. I mean, in those Martial Arts movies, you see them jumping around doing flips and such...why not have Acrobatics be in, rught? But that's just me. Also, still confused about the HD/Levels things.
While I don’t have an issue with it mechanically, I usually don’t include the mystic (or monk) at my table, at least not in my main homebrew world. It just doesn’t really align with the kind of fantasy I envision for my world.
Hi Berserker, could I trouble you for a copy of the second page of your character sheet ("Supplementary character specific pages are my own creation")? Thank you 😁
Considering how early the Monk appears, and the Mystic shortly after, there's a fairly strong argument to be made that D&D wasn't intended as a Western fantasy in the style normally employed when people object to seeing magical martial artists. A broader view of Western fantasy might even note that elements of the Middle East and Africa are inextricably linked to the West through the influence of religion and Roman conquest. Using Tolkien as a prototype to show that Western fantasy lacks such elements would be somewhat question-beggy, as the good professor's purpose in writing his world was a counterfactual of that real-world history. And even _he_ made places for those things to exist.
This is actually why I like the Known World setting so much. Sure, it’s a bit kooky in its delivery of Earth-like cultures but it was well-meaning and gave players an opportunity to steer away from Eurocentric settings if they wanted to. I actually loved early Forgotten Realms materials that also attempted this, with products like Kara Tur, Maztica, and in-depth explorations of Chult and Calimshan. Some might argue that they don’t stand up to modern sensibilities, but I would argue that, at the very least, they got players interested in cultures they may never have explored outside of the game.
3.X monks are certainly something of a trap option, with abilities that don't synergise and a reliance on too many ability scores being high. 4E and 5E did much better, but you still get some complaints.
3.x Monks are so bad that people online often renamed the "flurry of blows" ability to "flurry of misses". They're so bad that it became a meme to make Monk characters without having to take Monk levels, because man, _that_ would suck. (Examples include making unarmed grapplers using nothing but Wizard levels.) It really shouldn't come as much of a surprise that a class whose shtick involves personal poverty and asceticism is at a disadvantage in a game about killing people and taking their stuff for power. It's not a theoretically intractable problem, but (a) most RPG designers are innumerate, (b) most players nowadays are also innumerate, and (c) both groups would probably blow a gasket at the sorts of numbers and effects a Monk/Mystic class would need in order to actually be a competitive option. Just look at how many people think the Vow Of Poverty feat is _overpowered_ for evidence of that.
Hi BECMI Berserker, another really useful video. However, I think your maths is a bit off. You say that at 16th level the Mystic has a potential damage output of 56 HP per round. In fact, with 4 attacks doing 3D12 HP damage (max 36 HP damage each) that's 4 x 36 = max 144 HP damage per round!!! This is the main problem with the Mystic, their damage output would put Chuck Norris to shame. If you compare it to a 16th level Fighter with grand master skill in longsword, their damage would be 2D6+8, so a maximum of 20 HP damage. Fighters only gain multiple attacks if they can hit on a 2+ against weak opponents. Similary if you compare it to a 16th level Magic User they could potentially cast a fireball doing 16D6 damage to a group, for a maximum of 96 HP damage. But they can only do this a limited number of times per day and the victims get a save for half damage. I would suggest if using the Mystic class to completely remove the multiple attacks, or give them the same restriction as the Fighter. This makes the damage a bit more reasonable, if its just 1 attack doing 3D12 damage. The damage is still higher than a Fighter, but the Fighter has other benefits and will continue to improve. One question I'm still not sure about - do Mystics use a Fighters THACO for attacks? I can't find this anywhere.
I don't allow Mystics in my campaign. That being said, I did allow a player to play a yogi (from Sindh), who is quite close to a mix of a mystic and a hakamoto from the Ethengar Gazatteer. There is a bunch of different things, but the main mystic like thing is that he cannot use weapons (other than staffs and rocks), but has an unarmed attack nicknamed The Yogi Punch, doing 1d4 damage (dagger equivalent). Given that the other characters do 1+STR Bonus with a bareknuckle punch in our campaign, this means he packs a helluva right hook for a 'scrawny guy in a diaper', and has put the lights out of several opponents who thought an unarmed scrawny guy was easy pickings. But he is not going to be punching four times at 3d12...
Becmi has too much unnecessary math. Everything else about Becmi is cool, but having to crossreference multiple tables while just trying to play the game makes the game slow and homeworky. There's a reason people still play B/X and not BECMI.
I think the math for the Mystic Acrobat exp chart is wrong: dividing by 0.8 gives you an increase of 25%. 20% by 2000 = 400; if you multiply 2000 by 1.2 you get 2400, by 1.25 you get 2500; to get a 20% increase you'd need to divide by 0.83 repeating; basically the Acrobat needs 120% experience compared to the Mystic which is six fifths since one fifth is 0.2; 6 / 5 = 1.2; which is the same as saying that the Mystic needs five sixths of the exp the Acrobat needs; 5 / 6 = 0.83333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
Multiplying 2,000 by 1.2 would be 2,400. If you received 2,400xp and got a 20% penalty to it (multiply by 0.8) you would get 1,920. Therefore, not enough to achieve 2nd level. So (I think!), you must divide the xp required to get the actual xp total required. Working this back, 2,500 multiplied by 0.8 is 2,000. 5,000 multiplied by 0.8 is 4,000 etc.
@@becmiberserker yep, I've totally gone down a rabbit hole to get it wrong😅, I guess a 20% penalty is equal to a 25% increase which just feels weird for some reason🤔
A few nitpicky points, but since you seem to strive for a thorough explanation of each class, I thought I'd point them out.
Wisdom above 13 (or below 8) provides a bonus specifically to the saving throw for spells (RC, p9, middle column near the bottom) so Mariko's Spell save would be 1 point better than her save for rod/staff in all instances.
Also, a correction on when you take her to max level, you state her max potential damage is 56 points per round, but at 3d12 (+2 from Str) (max possible damage 38) x4 attacks per round, her max potential damage, assuming no crits, would be 152 points.
VERY important note, regarding Gentle Touch. This ability affects creatures whose HIT DICE are equal to or below the Mystic's level, NOT their level. The difference between HD and levels is critical here, since for example, a 36th level Fighter, is still only a 9HD creature.
Always enjoy seeing a new vid come out from you Berserker, keep up the awesome work in bringing BECMI to a new generation of players!
Goddamit! I do tend to make those math mistakes. I think it’s just a quality control issue vs wanting to get the video out. Thanks for pointing out. Will pin this post.
As for HD, I take the point but, in my opinion, I believe the intent would include levels, as 36th level anythings could be Charmed or Held with no save. I think that’s too powerful.
Thanks for the comment and keeping me on my toes!
@@becmiberserker Hey Berserker, just some followup...I think you are right on your assessment of the intent...I went and looked at the entry in the original Master level rulebooks, and they refer to levels and HD interchangeable for the Mystic even at 16th level (which exceeds the number of HD they have) so I believe you are correct in your interpretation of how they had meant it, and someone just forgot to adjust the wording as they were filling the class out for the RC.
Thanks for teaching an old dog a new trick! Can't wait to see the next topic.
@@seanprosser5420 Thanks, mate. We're all still learning this game. 🙂
@@becmiberserker Another reference I like to use to correctly point out them erroneously using HD and Level interchangeably when they are not, but definitely mean level instead of hit dice, is Polymorph Self. It mentioned a Wizard turning into a Frost giant, but uses the term "Hit dice" in the spell description. But a Frost Giant has 10 HD, more HD than a wizard could ever get, capped at 9. The writers just constantly mixed up their usage of the two terms because, up to level 9, they /were/ interchangeable. At least, that is what I imagine happened.
As we learned in American Ninja III The Domination, only a ninja can kill another ninja. Thank God almighty this is a Mystic and not a ninja.
American Ninja 3 and Ninja III: The Domination are two separate movies.
Good stuff, with the minor historical note that the monk pre-dates AD&D, first appearing in the 1975 Blackmoor supplement.
Of course. My mistake. 😊
I enjoy all of BECMI Berserker videos
And now the Mystic! Mayhap next we'll go through the gazetteer classes? Or is that a bit much?
That might be stretching it. 🙂 I do a bit of Gazetteer character class generation in those videos but, of course, not to this level.
I learned about the mystic class when I bought the Rules Cyclopedia, since I didn't own the master set at the time. It didn't give me the best of impressions.
Not only it was weird, but it also had far too many limitations. Each and every thing it gets comes with a hindrance attached: it is good with unarmed combat, but sucks with weapons, it can be acrobatic, but only with a heavy XP penalty, it can move faster and has improving AC, but can't use any protective item, it has some fighter options, but less hit points, it gains immunities, but somewhat sucks at saves... And it has both the demihuman's capped level and the druid's "fight for advance" stupid limitations.
I felt no urge to use it in my campaigns, nor did my players want to use it either.
Actually, monks appeared in AD&D 2nd Edition too, only not in the Player's Handbook. There was a fighting monk kit which somewhat sucked in the Completes, but also a really good new monk class for the Priests group in Spells and Magic, which made good use of the new spell spheres from Tome of Magic and the expanded weapon Mastery and revised unarmed combat rules from Combat and Tactics. It was fun to play and it could work as a specialty priest for several kinds of deities and phylosopies.
Unfortunately, when the monk class was officially reintroduced as a core in 3.0, it was heavily based on the mystic class. This made for an unfortunate and poorly balanced class, with many problems and not a clear place in the game. They still try to fix it today in the latest editions, with limited success.
Great video! I hated the Monk from AD&D and all the variants in the other games, BECMI included. Still, an interesting exploration in the video!
Same. They don't fit well with the more Western-style fantasy.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Since Diablo 3 my monks have a similar background - essentially Eastern Orthodox monk. Far enough to be strange but no so far to be ridiculous (like Japan). I would also count Friar Tuck as an example of an Occidental monk/mystic.
I've always enjoyed the idea of these types of progression mechanics for certain classes; its very 'Highlander'-like and adds a sense of diagetic progression and promotion to a character. My SO played a Monk in 5e, and we used something similar, although not as rooted in the progression mechanics, as a sense of defeating and stepping up in the knowledge of the elements.
Great video, and I always enjoy seeing your characteristic thumbnails on the feed.
Thanks for the thumbnail feedback. I do wonder how people perceive them.
Back in the day (early 90s?) my brother's cleric got liquified by a black dragon so he rolled up a Mystic instead. He was lured by the attraction of all the special abilities but i was (and remain) slightly sceptical.
I still don't like the idea of fighting your way up the levels and hierarchy, although I acknowledge it's a good way to generate new adventures.
The opposing martial arts from the Masters Set was definitely interesting. It introduces the idea of lota of different martial arts without going into major rules differences.
I have always avoided monks, regardless of the editon. The only time I had a monk in the group was in a campaign in Rokugan. Definitely not a fan of the class, but I enjoyed the video anyway! Thanks for another detailed and entertaining explanation :)
Same. They don't fit well with the more Western-style fantasy.
You’re welcome!
Great as always Becmi .
Great video as always, a few points from someone who's played a lot of RC and BX in the last few years...
The thing with mystics is they are extremely reliant on having awesome stats, and not just because of their lack of protective gear. That challenge at lvl 9 is no joke and in some games can effectively be a mystic's level cap, as the level 10 mystic gets a higher Thac0, better damage, better AC, and that is hoping your DM doesn't give them stats above their baseline, if they also have good stats, your chances of winning that fight can rapidly dwindle to less than a 50/50 chance. This mainly becomes a problem when you are running actual adventures as a Mystic. In our campaign we have been running for a few years now, someone was playing a mystic, had gotten to level nine at about even pace with the rest of the party, did the challenge and... Lost. Hard, despite having better stats than the 'master', the level gap beat him down. This was after having to wait several In game sessions stuck at level 9 to find that master to challenge in the first place. After that, he then had to wait even more sessions, since we on an ADVENTURE, so there wasn't downtime to wait around 3 months for him to try again, so we go through multiple adventures, gaining a lot of exp along the way.
We had allowed him to gain exp 'over' his level cap, so if he did win his next challenge, at least he wouldn't miss out on all that exp. Finally, due to travel times during the adventure, 3 months pass, and he can try again, the DM thankfully set up a master practically right in front of us at the same time for him... And he just got smashed again. Bit closer, but still destroyed. This wasn't a weak mystic either, 18 Dex 18 STR, the 1 level difference in unarmed combat can just be huge sometimes combined with slightly less lucky rolls. So he had to wait another 3 months at level 9, we did more travelling, more adventures, more fights, everyone else levelling up except him. This time, however, before his 3 months were even up, we ran into an undead beholder, and he was zapped with the no save no hit-roll -2 Level drain, and drained not only all his accumulated excess exp, but knocked him down to level 7. This utterly broke his spirit to play the character at all, when there were characters in the party who were level 12, 15, a cleric was even in their 20s. He ended up entirely retiring the character and started playing something else the DM let level boosted up with the party, not a mystic, but the point of the story is thus, Doing a challenge at /every/ level beyond 9 in an adventure is just not feasible in practical gameplay. I don't even think the challenge at level 9 barring getting very lucky ends up being do-able if you aren't playing a purely sandbox game where entire parties are perfectly content to wait around 3 months for you not to fall behind.
... Also you neglected to mention that (Although not usable in the the level 9 duel) the real powerhouse of the Mystic is weapon mastery combined with their multiple attack option is utterly disgusting. And HASTE with their multiple attack option is utterly disgusting, since Haste /doubles/ all attacks, not just adding +1. Give a mystic weapon mastery with the normal sword, two handed sword, a polearm, you have a lethal fighter. Or, if you want to be cheeky, go with a longbow or heavy crossbow, you don't get the multiple attacks, but you can likely outrun most enemies and can just run and shoot most of the time before they could catch you. And even if they do catch you, then you can just start punching.
Great video all the same though! If I had any comment, it would be how amazingly lucky all the characters are with the supposed '3d6' rolls, as that has always been my biggest complaint about the stat rolls. Sure, sometimes, and one or two players will have awesome pairs of 16s or 18s, But playing strictly 3d6 down the line, you'll also have characters I called 'Bob', which are 0s down the line, maybe a single +1, And maybe a single -1. And those characters aren't terribly fun in my experience, /especially/ in a party with someone with those 16s or 18s, and if that someoen shares your class too. You feel that difference every time you do basically anything. It's why the classic joke of just keep rolling characters until you got a good set of stats exists for OSR. At that point, why not just pick your stats and skip the nonsense.
Keep up the good work though, always fun to see someone talking about a game I have read and reread the rules on and still constantly find new spots of information.
Thanks, man. I didn’t go down the weapon mastery route because of time and that I’ve covered it before, but your take on the multiple attacks plus weapon mastery does make me feel think I should have considered this a bit more. I might add this to my wrap up video.
@@becmiberserker No problem! Also good to remember how much accuracy Weapon masteries can provide to bolster that relatively subpar Thac0 they suffer from at higher levels, And to consider that they can then also SMASH with all of those weapon-masteried attacks with that boosted accuracy! Weapon-master Mystics are a real menace!
Appreciated the Shogun reference, read back then way before the current series.
I find amazing how much of this class one finds in later editions. The no-presence power reminds me of the epic prestige class in 3e, the Void Incarnate.
I find interesting the donation mechanism for xp, which I forgot existed, like I forgot the opposite martial arts system.
The challenge system reminds of the AD&D 2e Druids.
I appreciate the video, sir. Looking forward to the next installment.
Excellence as usual! Thank you for all of the wonderful BECMI content. Between you and Wizard Deadloss, I am quite the happy BECMI fan.
No one ever played a Mystic in my campaigns. Or a druid, for that matter. Which was a relief because I've always felt the class was extremely powerful once they hit 5th level and up. There's still time for it to happen, however!
Most interesting thanks for the gen BB.
I came to DnD with the Rules Cyclopedia so mystic was an option at my table from the jump, but in play it felt very unsatisfying, and nobody ever really wanted to stick with it when a fighter or elf could do real fighting so much better. Even the thief did better if the DM allowed you to scurry into the rafters and drop onto enemies to get the backstab bonus.
I never understood the restriction on magical protective gear, even the plainest ring of protection. 🤔 I know "balance" but the level 16 cap does that. Scaling is wacky.
I would handle the high levels similar to the druids, let the player choose an area and fight for it, or let it be random or a brand new area with nothing for automatic promotion.
Excellent video as always, sir. ❤ Thanks for sharing.
Another great video. Thanks BB!
Wow, new art. 😮
Very nice.😊
BB must be 5th level now.
Great video! I love all the videos you make!
I feel the mystic starts out very fragile due to the low level AC. Later it gets more respectable, but it's still something of a glass cannon when its extra attacks start coming in. And that's a melee ability. At least by then, it has a bunch of extras to make it worthwhile.
Frankly, I'm not really a fan. I'd generally take a second fighter along over a mystic of the same level; except perhaps from about name level and up until the fighter gets the second attack at 12.
I've started a Mystic in a weekly game. I'll keep you posted on his progress. My first take is the mystic starts out with a long bow and uses his high Dexterity for the added hit probability. The long bow has a longer short range than a short bow. Presently when using the bow his thaco is a 15 if the target is within short range. Also if the mystic takes the skill Escape he then would gain a sort of Open Locks. Something you may have forgot to mention a mystic only gets XP for treasure when he donates it to the needy. Another limit is he must tithe 10% of his treasure to his cloister. RAW the mystic won't be leveling up as quickly as the other classes except for Magic users and elves.
I always liked the idea of the monk, I feel like most systems cannot get them right.
I use the GURPS system based in Greyhawk but I enjoy your vids on BECMI
Great end to this fantastic series ty! Hoping you will say more on dominion play in future
Will do this through module reviews, such as Legacy of Blood.
@@becmiberserker ty BB!
"speaks for itself" I see what you did there.🤣
I'm guessing the rakasta are next.
i kinda like the idea of more western style benadictine monks bring mystics as well, they do have a lot of crossover. Especially if you have a more western style campaign setting. of course, they are not as associated with unarmed combat, but the self cultivation austerity and general drive are similar.
I also like how wrestling is strong against defence. it reminds me of how best japanese samurai and western knights often practices wrestling specifically to overcome other heavily armored samurai and knights when a lot of regular attacks would be ineffective.
Good points!
You really should explain the difference between level and hit dice as gentle touch affects hit dice, and as far as I remember hit dice starts at level one and stops at level 8 for halflings, level 10 for elves, level 12 for dwarves and level 14 for humans. You would use those hit dice values to determine if gentle touch killed a npc or monster type.
Ooh! Really interesting point. This suggests that a 16th level Mystic could affect any character class of any level, as long as the comparative spell effect allowed it, as they would all have a maximum of 9 Hit Dice (8 for Halflings) as there are no Hit Dice gained at 10th level or above (your numbers suggest demihuman level limits, but not sure what the 14 for humans is).
Whilst this is what the text suggests, I do wonder if it’s the intent, or if they missed mentioning levels also. I mean, the ‘no save’ element would make this incredibly powerful, even if a successful hit roll is needed, as the Gentle Touch is not expended on a miss.
I wish I’d mentioned all this. 🙂
I think one needs to make the distinction of the 'Hit Dice' used to roll HP for the characters and Hit Dice when it comes to measuring the monsters. True, the characters stop rolling Hit Dice at level 9 (Halflings at level 8), but I think it is obvious that the level = HD identity is preserved even at higher levels. Thus, a 16th level Mystic can't shake the hand of the Empress of Alphatia (36th level Magic-user) and Charm/Kill her without a saving throw.
As a quick aside, I very much dislike 'no saving throw' mechanics.
I think the no save accounts for a hit roll being needed, although that hit roll can be attempted again and again.
This thread did make me look up the Death Spell again and it doesn’t affect creatures of 8HD or more, so there’s that.
@@anarionelendili8961 I assumed this and would play it that way. Level = HD.
@@becmiberserker well now you have a new video Idea :)
If it were me, I have Acrobatic Mystics XP table being an actual thing. I mean, in those Martial Arts movies, you see them jumping around doing flips and such...why not have Acrobatics be in, rught? But that's just me. Also, still confused about the HD/Levels things.
While I don’t have an issue with it mechanically, I usually don’t include the mystic (or monk) at my table, at least not in my main homebrew world. It just doesn’t really align with the kind of fantasy I envision for my world.
Mariko, looks like a butterfly, moves like it but hits like a wasp.
Hi Berserker, could I trouble you for a copy of the second page of your character sheet ("Supplementary character specific pages are my own creation")? Thank you 😁
Considering how early the Monk appears, and the Mystic shortly after, there's a fairly strong argument to be made that D&D wasn't intended as a Western fantasy in the style normally employed when people object to seeing magical martial artists. A broader view of Western fantasy might even note that elements of the Middle East and Africa are inextricably linked to the West through the influence of religion and Roman conquest.
Using Tolkien as a prototype to show that Western fantasy lacks such elements would be somewhat question-beggy, as the good professor's purpose in writing his world was a counterfactual of that real-world history. And even _he_ made places for those things to exist.
This is actually why I like the Known World setting so much. Sure, it’s a bit kooky in its delivery of Earth-like cultures but it was well-meaning and gave players an opportunity to steer away from Eurocentric settings if they wanted to.
I actually loved early Forgotten Realms materials that also attempted this, with products like Kara Tur, Maztica, and in-depth explorations of Chult and Calimshan. Some might argue that they don’t stand up to modern sensibilities, but I would argue that, at the very least, they got players interested in cultures they may never have explored outside of the game.
Bump for the algorithm
If we were to get another GAZ representing Oriental adventures where would you place it in the known world?
Really enjoying your content. Any chance you can video you being a DM and running a game?
Considering this…
@@becmiberserker that would be cool.
Lower level cap aside, the Mystic seems more on par with other classes than post 3E Monks, who I've gathered are consistently regarded as underpowered
3.X monks are certainly something of a trap option, with abilities that don't synergise and a reliance on too many ability scores being high. 4E and 5E did much better, but you still get some complaints.
3.x Monks are so bad that people online often renamed the "flurry of blows" ability to "flurry of misses". They're so bad that it became a meme to make Monk characters without having to take Monk levels, because man, _that_ would suck. (Examples include making unarmed grapplers using nothing but Wizard levels.)
It really shouldn't come as much of a surprise that a class whose shtick involves personal poverty and asceticism is at a disadvantage in a game about killing people and taking their stuff for power.
It's not a theoretically intractable problem, but (a) most RPG designers are innumerate, (b) most players nowadays are also innumerate, and (c) both groups would probably blow a gasket at the sorts of numbers and effects a Monk/Mystic class would need in order to actually be a competitive option. Just look at how many people think the Vow Of Poverty feat is _overpowered_ for evidence of that.
Wonder if he’ll do gnome from the back of the RC.
Just wanted to say thanks for all your content and work. Hopefully this is enougth to AT LEAST buy you a tiny long black on me! 😁🖖
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. ☕️
@@becmiberserker 🖖
Hi BECMI Berserker, another really useful video. However, I think your maths is a bit off. You say that at 16th level the Mystic has a potential damage output of 56 HP per round. In fact, with 4 attacks doing 3D12 HP damage (max 36 HP damage each) that's 4 x 36 = max 144 HP damage per round!!!
This is the main problem with the Mystic, their damage output would put Chuck Norris to shame. If you compare it to a 16th level Fighter with grand master skill in longsword, their damage would be 2D6+8, so a maximum of 20 HP damage. Fighters only gain multiple attacks if they can hit on a 2+ against weak opponents.
Similary if you compare it to a 16th level Magic User they could potentially cast a fireball doing 16D6 damage to a group, for a maximum of 96 HP damage. But they can only do this a limited number of times per day and the victims get a save for half damage.
I would suggest if using the Mystic class to completely remove the multiple attacks, or give them the same restriction as the Fighter. This makes the damage a bit more reasonable, if its just 1 attack doing 3D12 damage. The damage is still higher than a Fighter, but the Fighter has other benefits and will continue to improve.
One question I'm still not sure about - do Mystics use a Fighters THACO for attacks? I can't find this anywhere.
Hello. You are right. I’ve pinned an earlier post that helpfully pointed out my crappy math. Oh well.
Thanks for watching. 🙂
I don't allow Mystics in my campaign. That being said, I did allow a player to play a yogi (from Sindh), who is quite close to a mix of a mystic and a hakamoto from the Ethengar Gazatteer. There is a bunch of different things, but the main mystic like thing is that he cannot use weapons (other than staffs and rocks), but has an unarmed attack nicknamed The Yogi Punch, doing 1d4 damage (dagger equivalent). Given that the other characters do 1+STR Bonus with a bareknuckle punch in our campaign, this means he packs a helluva right hook for a 'scrawny guy in a diaper', and has put the lights out of several opponents who thought an unarmed scrawny guy was easy pickings. But he is not going to be punching four times at 3d12...
Becmi has too much unnecessary math. Everything else about Becmi is cool, but having to crossreference multiple tables while just trying to play the game makes the game slow and homeworky. There's a reason people still play B/X and not BECMI.
Mystic and Thief slapfighting for the title of the worst class in old D&D
My money is on the Mystic 😉
Mystic do not exist in my tables...
I you make it sound so mundane and pitiful… another way to frame this exact same match up would be prison rules 😁
I think the math for the Mystic Acrobat exp chart is wrong: dividing by 0.8 gives you an increase of 25%. 20% by 2000 = 400; if you multiply 2000 by 1.2 you get 2400, by 1.25 you get 2500; to get a 20% increase you'd need to divide by 0.83 repeating; basically the Acrobat needs 120% experience compared to the Mystic which is six fifths since one fifth is 0.2; 6 / 5 = 1.2; which is the same as saying that the Mystic needs five sixths of the exp the Acrobat needs; 5 / 6 = 0.83333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
Multiplying 2,000 by 1.2 would be 2,400. If you received 2,400xp and got a 20% penalty to it (multiply by 0.8) you would get 1,920. Therefore, not enough to achieve 2nd level. So (I think!), you must divide the xp required to get the actual xp total required. Working this back, 2,500 multiplied by 0.8 is 2,000. 5,000 multiplied by 0.8 is 4,000 etc.
@@becmiberserker yep, I've totally gone down a rabbit hole to get it wrong😅, I guess a 20% penalty is equal to a 25% increase which just feels weird for some reason🤔
@@matteofurlotti6211I know, I had to bend my brain around it a number of times! 🙂
@@becmiberserker considered myself prostrated and begging for mercy for having doubted you oh mighty Berserker!🥲
😂