The comparison to 5E is a little off IMO. You're comparing a thief to a skilled person, but NOT a rogue. This means that the doubled proficiency bonus isn't being accounted for, which can have a massive impact. I get that it isn't universal to their skill usages, but it will be a factor in those skills they choose to emphasize/use often.
Ah, the Expertise ability. Good point. I just re-input on my calculations accounting for that and by 20th level it's 90% for non-modified and 95% for +1 etc... Thanks for highlighting this.
Maybe even more impactful than expertise is reliable talent, which lets 5e rogues starting at level 11 treat a roll of 9 or lower as a 10 for any check they have proficiency in. That makes it impossible for a proficient rogue to fail a DC 15 ability check after level 13 (or after level 11, if they have any ability score modifier).
And a 5th level rogue is most likely +4 if not +5 due to ASI … they also get expertise again at jut at one level so have expertise across 4 skills which is their core really So +10 to 11 is Noel, plus reliable … a lot more like b/x
In the old days (b/x) I found that I leveled up fast (skulking around the back with the MU). But I was soon getting into "side stuff" the dm had to judge, and this inevitably became an extra solo session. I level really good now and even got the MU to come in on a few (and dispelled some 'reasonable suspicion' the rest of the party had). Once you obtain that ring of invisibility you are on track to open up a world of awesome. Bag of holding on an invisible thief is like a giant amoeba crossed with a licensed and weighed semi truck. Play it smart and you can avoid a lot of poison and other trap effects, or line up some magic to mitigate risks. I had lots of fun with the class.
The ability to read scrolls can be a lot of fun for thief players. You want to get yourself a nice collection of scrolls, so you have a whole deck of card's worth of aces up your sleeve when things go bad.
@@midnightgreen8319I was always a little leary about reading scrolls like that. I'd hate to disintegrate myself. But scrolls like Knock, Comprehend Languages, Invisibility and the like are incredibly handy to have.
I would have kept the 13 Int score. Since you were going to play this as a wandering thief, cunning enough to build a network of affiliates and to exploit any occasion to enrich himself, having some more brains than the average commoner would have been appropriate. And also that would have meant one extra language and one extra skill at first level. Extra skills are always welcome for a class that survives on being able to do a lot of things. And extra languages are good when you travel a lot. In modern games, from 3.x onward, Int is actually the main ability score of the rogue, precisely because it gives him more skills. Dex is only as useful to have as for any other character class.
Great video, as always. I've heard mumers of controversy around BX/BECMI Thief before, but never understood it as being for these reasons. Ironically, you've brought a lot of light to the Thief discussion. Stay cool, and still keen for them Dwarfs, both the Gaz and the Let's Roll!
As more of an OD&D/AD&D man, the awkward role of thieves in the '80s basic lines (where they were limited to being single class humans) has only become more glaring to me over time. As early as Greyhawk, it was clear that the class was specifically meant to synergize with/buff demihumans. They have unlimited advancement as thieves only, can multi-class to cover the base class' weaknesses, start with significant skill bonuses, can very crucially see in the dark, and have their miscellaneous perks on top of all that. Human are objectively the poorest thieves in this context and limiting the class to them borders on missing the point completely. It's even more of a struggle in BECMI than B/X, too, since Frank Mentzer himself admitted that stretching the thief skill percentages out over 36 levels for BECMI was "a huge mistake." If he can freely admit it, why can't we? Oh, and no backstab multiplier advancement for some reason? Never understood that choice. So the human-only thief with nerfed skill progression is the worst version of the worst version of what was arguably an underwhelming class from the start. I appreciate your stab at apologetics, but I gotta call it as I see it in that Greegan would be better off existing in any other TSR edition. ;)
Thanks for the comment. I wish I’d mentioned that Mentzer quote in the video. I knew of it but forgot. Grrr… If I’m honest, I would like to examine the circumstances of the quote. Mentzer was challenged a lot on the changes but that was by BX-ers unhappy with the changes. I think on balance it’s not that bad, which is why I laboured the comparison with 5e so much. As for backstab, I think I agree with you.
Perhaps I'm just spoiled by modern D&D, but I'm generally of the feeling that limiting classes by race is just a bad move. As I'm fond of saying, "all else being equal, more options is better than fewer options". Players shouldn't be limited in what race-class combinations they can employ, just by designer fiat. I don't think whatever reasons BECMI's designers had for limiting the Thief to only humans is sufficient to justify the narrative and gameplay absence of non-human Thieves.
Agreed on the point about Thief abilities starting too low. Behavior a game rewards is behavior a game encourages. The reverse is also true: behavior a game penalizes is behavior it discourages. Making the Thief so poor at basic abilities notionally pertinent to being a Thief doesn't make players appreciate some hypothetical point in the future where they've become really good at it. It makes them avoid using any Thief abilities (aside from Climb) until they've reached a level where their chances for success are better, and the cost of failure less severe (because they have more HP to soak damage). I don't think I'm in the minority when I think this is directly opposed to the intent of the class. Avoiding doing any "Thief things" for what will, on average, be the majority of time spent playing a Thief for most players. Nor do I think "it gets good at X level" is really comforting to the person who sat down to play D&D for fun. Any more than "it gets better 20 hours in" makes a video game good. Why is the experience not fun from the word "go"? At least when you play a Fighter, you're getting the Fighter experience from the start. You hit things, and they die.
@@Bluecho4 Obviously I agree. Playing a thief would be much more doable if most of the traps and locks were 'Very easy +50%' or 'Easy +25%', and rather than bad things happening on any failed Remove Traps, it would only punish you if the roll is like 90+, or in a pinch, double your success chance like with Pickpocket. As I mentioned my own comment, we just made Thief Abilities into skills, and they have values around 40-50% at the start, which makes for a much nicer playing experience for a thief at lower levels.
@@Bluecho4 You have a point on limiting class but…more options isn’t necessarily better than fewer options. That is what slows new RPG’s such as 5E down to a crawl. Everyone has 10,000 options to sift through before during and after their turn. That’s why about 75% of the players at the table are looking at their electronic devices more than listening to the DM. With fewer written options you have to use your imagination to do what you want. Describe what you want to accomplish and let the DM decide how to adjudicate the situation. This actually leads to more flexibility…if your DM is doing his job correctly and not stifling play.
Every video reminds me of just how great the BECMI rules set were/are. I admit to being sucked into the notion that 5E is the culmination of D&D rules. I think that were I to start a new campaign, it will be in MYSTARA with the BECMI rules. Thanks for all the great, thought provoking content!
I seldom played thieves as i was usually going dwarf or fighter, which I'm still reminded that "no one plays", but the thief was almost always the most useful character in our party due to the sheer amount of traps and obstacles we needed to get around.
I seem to be in the minority of players who love the old Thief class! Totally agree with all you said about the skills and as it says in players book, unlike magic you can use those skills over and over. Also, the XP required to level up as a Thief is lower than any other class. So, although you start with only D4 HP by the time the Elf is still on level 1 with 3,000 XP you will already be on level 3! Some other benefits of the Thief are that you can use any one handed weapon or any missile weapon. With DEX as your main stat and low HP the Thief is always best off as an archer. But being able to use a normal sword (D8 damage) means your backstab can do a lot of damage given the chance. One of my favourite modules for BECMI was M1 Blizzard Pass, which gave you the chance to play a solo adventure as a Thief. Its just so much more fun than the other classes.
My favorite class Berserker. Had one get to tenth level he even started a small Thieves Guild. He is at present time invading a jewelry shop in a ruined town. With a Half elf and mage party members.
Thieves definitely shined when supported properly, in case things went wrong. They wereca good utility class that could be made more fun with magical items. Thanks for another great review!
When I was younger, I never found Thieves to be that interesting. Sure, their skills seemed cool, but the percentages were all so low, and the class had so few hit points. However, I've begun to find them more appealing; I love the idea of a character who focuses on solving problems through wit and stealth rather than direct combat. In that regard, I feel like Thieves are an embodiment of the "old-school" philosophy of gameplay popular in OSR culture, in which the game is viewed almost as a puzzle to be solved -- or failed -- rather than a series of balanced fights that you're expected to face head-on and win.
Sidenote: 5e rogue would most likely pick expertise in stealth, thief tools etc. so their proficiency would be doubled for these tasks and thus they would actually have much higher chance of success then what you shown.
as a DM, I give low level thieves a bonus to lock picking etc if they take more time - but this incurs a greater chance of wandering monsters etc. Another excellent video ty
Another thought on that subject is to give bonuses and penalties. For instance, when picking a lock, a simple lock would give a bonus while a difficult lock would give a penalty. For moving silently, wearing soft boots should add a bonus while hard boots should give a penalty. Hiding in shadows can have a lot of factors. What color clothing are they wearing? Forest colors in a forest might give a bonus. But wearing a black cloak in a snowy area is going to give you a penalty. And all traps are not alike. A simple trap might be eazy to find or disarm. But a complex, well hidden trap might give a penalty. It's all up to the DM to decide but it's the players duty to ask the questions. Your basic lock is one thing but the lock on a treasure vault will be much harder to pick, don't you think. And only once in all my years playing did I ever find a magic set of thieves picks and tools. But I have had my thieves pony up the cash to get High Quality Picks and Tools. I think that they gave a +5% to pick locks and remove/set traps.
I had this idea of converting the dexterity bonuses from the +1, +2, +3 to, +5%, +10%, +15% for all thief skills. People may say that "find traps" could be modified by wisdom or intelligence, but since dexterity is their prime requisite we can stick to that. This means that with a dexterity of 18, a thief has a 30% chance to pick a lock instead of a lowly 15%. We could also do level 1 skill points, like 15% to distribute but that's up to the group playing.
Great Video, to be honest I never knew that Thieves could improve their chances by planning their skills properly, I only thought planning initiated them, Why isn't this compiled properly in becmi books?
The thief has been a class I've always had mixed feelings about in terms of concept, where sometimes I want them in my game, other times I don't, sometimes I port the 2e version of the thief where you can buff up your skills at each level from your choice in order to make him specialized. The unique strengths of the thief though are the fact that the skills are extraordinary, which unfortunately isn't conveyed through the rules too well, but it does indirectly buff the thief. For example: anyone can try to hide somewhere, but the thief can hide in shadows. Any character can try to be quiet, but the thief can move silently. This is how one of the original players Mike Mornard described the thief, and despite my grievances about the thief, I think makes them more unique and not as horrid as their low skill numbers might seem for low levels. Like if you're going to look at a chest and proceed to place your hands on it. Now, a more green player/character might make a mistake of not properly investigating the chest to see if it was trapped or had poison gel on it, and as such is taking a huge risk. A thief on the other hand, if one were to treat their "Find Traps" as a saving throw(which I read how some of the original players used that skill in this instance), the thief has a last ditch chance to notice that the chest has some contact poison gel on it, despite the player's recklessness. Thieves know about things such as these, and with that information the group can proceed to take a more safe approach. For move silently or hide in shadows, I generally roll the thief skills on a d100, and if it fails I roll a 1d6 as an extra chance to see even though the thief failed move silently...does he at least move quiet enough to avoid detection? If he can't hide in shadows, is there perhaps a chance something even notices him to begin with? And in the chaotic fray of combat, like on a surprise, I give thieves a chance to hide in shadows in order to try and get the jump on a weaker foe with their backstabif they don't want to just snipe with their probably above average dexterity. Sure the backstab damage doesn't improve like in let's say AD&D or OD&D...HOWEVER with weapon mastery it does since weapons do in fact do more damage with each point invested. Sorry for the wall of text, as I do find the thief and how they're played very interesting.
I appreciate the comparison between thief skills vs 5e equivalents. Makes the thief seem more balanced than at first glance. I think the comparison to a 5th Edition DC of 15 is good, and gives me a foundation for modifiers due to difficulty. An easy task could provide a 25% bonus to a roll (equivalent to DC 10 in 5e), which would allow for higher chance of success (and potentially satisfaction of playing a thief) for low level characters (i.e. throw in a poor lock here or there for a much higher 40% chance of success to pick it for the lowly level 1 thief). And the alternative for considering penalties for nearly impossible feats for high level play. Climbing an overhang might be a DC 25 in 5e, or for BECMI a 50% penalty to the climb check. I mean, of course the DM was always empowered to provide bonuses and penalties in BECMI s as they see fit, but as a general reference for how large those modifiers might be, this was a useful comparison in my opinion.
my one greatest peeve with the Thief class in old D&D (before the new Rogue in 3.X and onwards) is, basically, how their skills... just doesn't seem to work properly, if not "interpreted" in a certain way. Stealth skills are one thing - you need to get a fair amount of levels before you can start considering using them as something else than a desperate Hail Mary maneuvers (the Hide in Shadows at least, in its most favourable interpretation, deserves its starting low percentages - but read on, I will mention working in darkness). There's, of course, the interpretation of using them "on top" of any "normal" (and not explicitly existing) rules for sneaking around for non-Thieves, but it still means that on lower levels these abilities are dead weight - you sacrifice HP, weapon and armor abilities for something you can't really use. Another thing are the "mechanical" abilities - in addition to laughably low success chances (which can easily end up with the Thief dying, in case of tampering with traps), on higher levels, these abilities can be often superseded by spellcasting, which, compared to Thief's abilities, is reliable and instant (even if it costs slots). Then, we have mere pickpocketing - ok, one might try to explain it that potential NPC pickpocketers aren't "built" in the same way as PCs (because obviously they aren't), but it still feels grossly unrealistic, despite everything fantastical, that a "player" Thief needs to basically become a small legend before they can reliably attempt pickpocketing without a large risk of getting caught. And, lastly, how, in dungeons environment, the need for light makes Human thieves basically unusable for anything other than trying to pick locks... especially as some versions (forgot if it was BECMI, B/X, OD&D Greyhawk, or ADnD) actually mention that darkness is not shadows. There's that one not-quite-retroclone-anymore, ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System), which is getting a second edition soon, and, while it keeps classic Thief abilities with same percentages as in B/X (just expressed in a different way, specifically like saving throws are expressed, rolled on d20 equal or higher), it rebalances the game to make Thieves more usable: - ability to use the "mechanical" abilities hastily or deliberately - hasted attempt take only 1 combat round (or no really tracked time during turn movement), and, if failed, can be retried deliberately; deliberated attempt takes a full turn as usual, but has a 20% percentile chance increase (or, rather, +4 on d20). Most importantly, detection abilities of the Thief can be used passively ("hastily"), in the same way as Elves and Dwarves can just detect certain things nearby. - spells that basically duplicate Thief abilities were removed/replaced. There's a spell for breaking through a door, but there's no longer a spell allowing to sneakily pick a lock. - simlarily, no more common infravision - most beings that had infravision (especially playable humanoid) does not have it anymore, making stealth much more viable even in dungeons - Thieves get "shadowy senses" - explained as a nigh-superhuman (but not quite) combination of trained, heightened senses of sound, touch, and smell (which apparently, while rare, isn't exactly unreal), allowing Thieves to be able to remain "operational" even without light, to a degree. The only thing unfixed is the freakin' pickpocketing.
its been so long i dont recall the numbers but i almost always played with a buffed thief. its been 30 years but i think we started with 3rd levels chances then progressed 2 lines at a time. i seem to remember it balanced out to be more like 1e and was pretty strong after level 10 or 12
I think part of the criticism is that there are a number of spells that perform similar functions to thief skills, but automatically succeed (knock, find traps,etc.). So Thieves are nerfed as a class relative to other classes. At low levels they can’t thieve or fight and at higher levels they aren’t needed.
The Thief isn't limited to a number of Knocks per day, and doesn't need to decide ahead of time to pack Knock or Find Traps in place of a combat spell or a spell that can bypass completely different types of hazard or puzzle. Also, a thief is supposed to just automatically succeed a correctly roleplayed and intentional form of reasonable stealth or trap evasion or stealing things at a time when the owner legitimately wouldn't notice (same circumstances a stealthily-armored fighter would successfully climb or steal or poke a bear trap with a stick to trigger it and the like); the rolls on Thief Skills are over and above this, Hide in Shadows isn't just visual stealth but literally turning invisible when a shadow is cast on you, Move Silently is literally moving around without making any sound for a thing using the sense of hearing to detect, and Climb Sheer Surfaces is more of a Spider-Man climb than just getting a good grip on a reasonable climbing surface. And Use Magic Device is bypassing an otherwise mage- or cleric-only magic item and making it work for you anyway, despite being a non-spellcaster Thief.
Thief skills maxing out around level 14 comes from OD&D, not B/X itself. Early printings of BECMI Basic and Expert also copied the B/X Thief skills directly, only after Companion was they changed in future printings to mach. So it's clear they didn't really know what to do with higher-level Thieves right up 'til Companion was written. Personally I feel the obvious choice would be to turn higher-level Thieves into basically Assassins (at-least as an option) like had been done with Fighters and Paladins (/Knigts/Avengers). It's the one OD&D+Supplements class not in BD&D. Bring back Backstab advancement, drop the paid-assassin angle if they have to and just embrace the ninja-like stealthy warrior who movies throught crowds unnoticed, who take out the enemies one-by-one by suddenly jumping down from the ceiling and then disappearing back into the shadows. As someone who played a lot of Wizardry, but only had the BE of BECMI in my native language, this is always what I assumed that natural old-school progression of the Thief would be, and it feels kinda odd how much B/X and BECMI seem to downplay this angle for the Theif compared to OD&D.
In 1st edition, the Thief was my best character. In 2nd edition, I enjoyed Thieves even more than in 1st edition because of the changes to how to improve percentage based skills. In 5th edition.... I never use Rogues. I don't find them to be fun for my play style.
I find it interesting that you spent so much time on the leveling percentage improvements, yet didn't address what I believe is the most damning of all criticisms to the old-school thief. You actually do reference it, at 13:26. Some of these I get, like pickpocketing, but I just cannot believe the idea that a fighter can't climb, even if he would have to remove armor to do so. And why can't anyone try to hide or sneak? Even if they aren't as good as thieves it is weird to say "they can't". This also bleeds into some confusion I have about the regular skill system. Is the book attempting to suggest that I can't LIE without taking a skill in deception? Either than that, I'm really loving this series. Edit: just because I should add how I have handled this in the past (though this wasn't BECMI). I made thief skills be handled as "OR" rolls. So let me generate a dex score by rolling some dice. 8, so not the best thief in the world, but he's good for the explanation. If we associate trap disabling with dexterity, then the thief has a 40% chance from his dexterity, and a 10% chance from his class and level. We know from an application of DeMorgan's Theorem that A | B = ~(~A & ~B), so we can see the thief has a total chance of 46%. Still not great, but good enough, and we are still free as GMs to modify one or both rolls if we want to make it harder. It is not a complicated process - just roll a d20 and a d100 at the same time and check if at least one of the numbers is good enough, and it allows for other classes to attempt stereotypically "thievish" actions, provided they can offer a decent explanation on why I should allow it.
Thanks for the comment. I can understand the frustration with this, but the way I get round it is through use of the Skills system in the RC. It can allow the kinds of activities your referring to without being a Thief. A downside is that it's possible to outshine the class that specialises in these abilities. How I deal with this is anyone can attempt a check if they have the Skill, but there are some things that only a Thief can do. The players at my table buy into this and it keeps the Thief, and other classes, relevant. Hope this helps.
Have never and would never play B/X to 36th level. It stops at 14 for me. I think B/X (and OSE) is vastly superior to BECMI - I really dislike the clunky skills and weapon skills additions to that part of the game. Mind you, I'd change a lot of things in any version of D&D - eg, Replace Wisdom with a Perception attribute and make cleric Charisma based - so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. Really nice analysis though, interesting video as always!
Another great class video, Berserker! I always appreciated the option in BECMI to adjust the ability scores, especially if you were rolling by the strict method! I always wondered however, at the limitation on which abilities one could drop to bump a Prime Requisite. Why can't one lower Dex, Con, or Cha?
I think the reason is that the "main" D&D classes were the trio from Original D&D: Fighting Man (Strength), Magic-User (Intelligence), and Cleric (Wisdom) so you can shuffle around the stats that, in that edition, did nothing but determine if you qualified for those classes (and Elf by exceeding the minimum requirements of both Fighting Man and Magic-User) and gave bonus experience if you truly excelled in those realms. Thief wasn't really a core class in the same sense as those three, and Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma were the stats that truly _did something_ mechanically (Dexterity improving Armor Class by one stage at high levels and improving missile weapon fire, Constitution increasing Hit Points and I believe some saving throws but not as many as you'd think, and Charisma being the most important as it determines interactions with followers, hirelings, and henchmen which are the bulk of your combat interactions). All classes had roughly equal value for Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma. So basically you're just saying "I didn't study Wizardly Academics or practice my religious piety as fervently to focus on my Strength" at character generation, or likewise shuffling your preferences towards wizard or cleric over the other two main classes. And you needed to already have very high potential in one of those areas in order to neglect it a lot and gain a little bit of a boost to the one you're really focusing on - your unadjusted stat spread is where you would lie from a normal, balanced upbringing and your natural talent levels.
@@RoninCatholic I had long suspected it was related to something along those lines, but always wondered why once the Thief became a core class (long before BECMI was published) the ability to adjust was never changed to reflect that. It just always seemed a strange and arbitrary feeling restriction to me, and I'd love to have an understanding of the reasoning, beyond mere theorizing.
@@Gaurelin Personally, I think the Thief should've just had its official Prime Requisite be Intelligence. Not all clever, learned people are going to be magical...some if not more are going to be crafty. Dexterity still being a good thing for a Thief to have, but not considered _the_ thing to have. Thieves are built more about the skills/proficiencies they _know_ than how deft their legs and fingers are as a biological baseline. That or there should've been two other "base professions" built around Constitution and Charisma respectively and all that would entail, not merely four for STR, INT, WIS, and DEX.
@@RoninCatholic I can see your point, but then we are starting to dip into a level of class complexity that is at odds with the very straightforward design aesthetic of BECMI. Thieves need to be nimble and have very steady hands in order to perform their class functions, so Dex always made sense to me.
As I mentioned in the announcement comments, in our new BECMI campaign, I switched the Thief Abilities to Skills, and even bundled them up a bit. I am using our house-rule that the skill value = (stat+level)/2, so that the skill keeps increasing automatically with levels. In addition, if a player spends another slot on the skill, it gets +3, which is a way for a thief character to specialize, too. Thief is basically a skill monkey. My big beef with the RAW thief abilities is that the penalties for failure are harsh enough that you don't really want to be even using the skills. For example, a first level thief trying to pickpocket a 1st level character would have a chance of 20-5 = 15%. So 15% chance of succeeding, 15% chance of failing, and 70% chance of getting caught. Not worth it. Find Traps + Remove Traps is in some way even worse. You have a 10% chance of finding a trap and if you do that, you have a 10% chance of disarming it but a 90% chance of triggering it. So in other words, I have a 1% combined chance of successfully finding and removing a trap. With those odds, it is a wonder that any thief reaches the 2nd level! The only way to make a 1st level thief actually succeed in their thief abilities is to be very very generous with the bonuses, but alas, the RC section talks mainly about penalties, which easily can lead a novice DM to think just in terms of nerfing these skills further. As for Climb Walls, best to stay on very low walls, given the low HP. Assuming 4 HP for the 1st level thief, every time he climbs a 20' tall wall, there is about 1/16th chance of him falling and breaking his neck: Climb Walls 87%, failure on 13% (roughly one in eight), causing him to fall from 10' up = 1d6 damage, 4+ damage 50% of the time. Climbing a taller wall bumps the fall damage to an almost certain death. As for Backstab, I think that the damage multiplier should improve with levels. Not sure at what level it should be, but allowing backstab to do x3 at 12th, x4 at 24th and x5 at 36th would sound OK to me. The weapon mastery rules already effectively do this, as it improves the damage dice already, so a higher level thief naturally does already much more damage than without the WM rules. That being said, a Fighter still gets the multiple attacks even with a higher damage dice, so I might be tempted to 'double dip' with a higher modifier. A high level thief backstabbing you should be a major threat: against a 36th level fighter, 8d4 tickles, but 20d4 is starting to smart (assuming a Grandmasterly 4d4 dagger damage). In our campaign, I allow Backstab with ranged weapons as well, as long as the target is unaware and moving in a predictable way. I.e. not really doable while they are in combat, but great for assassinating people waving from the balcony or standing on guard. It allows the Thief to lean into their high DEX, too. Speaking of, I have been considering to let the Thief use DEX to improve their THAC0 in melee as well, but I might limit it to daggers and shortswords. GAZ 11 (Darokin) already has this option for Rapiers (EDIT: I misremembered this, GAZ 11 makes Rapiers quite overpowered at -1 dmg but +2 to hit and -2 AC compared to normal swords; I guess I got the DEX to hit from an older house-rule or Pathfinder), so I don't think it would be a huge issue, and it would help the Thieves to actually keep themselves alive. No damage bonus, of course. The lack of armor and shield is really keeping them away from the front line anyway, and the Fighter's weapon mastery and STR usually gives them a lot more oomph anyway, not to mention the double HP, so it doesn't really steal the Fighter's limelight, either.
I don't really see much wrong with B/X thieves having such high chances of success compared to BECMI or 5e because otherwise spells like Knock or Comprehend Languages or True Seeing would make thieves obsolete. It's the fact that thieves can do these things reliably and repeatedly that makes them a valuable part of the team. And I've never played past 16th level at the absolute highest ever so the maximum of 36 has always felt purely theoretical to me.
I don't know how a thief survived to 14th level, given how deadly traps are and with a find traps skill so low and remove traps even lower. How many sessions would it take you to get a character to 14th level, Berserker? That sounds like years of gameplay to me.
The comparison to 5E is a little off IMO. You're comparing a thief to a skilled person, but NOT a rogue. This means that the doubled proficiency bonus isn't being accounted for, which can have a massive impact. I get that it isn't universal to their skill usages, but it will be a factor in those skills they choose to emphasize/use often.
Ah, the Expertise ability. Good point. I just re-input on my calculations accounting for that and by 20th level it's 90% for non-modified and 95% for +1 etc... Thanks for highlighting this.
Maybe even more impactful than expertise is reliable talent, which lets 5e rogues starting at level 11 treat a roll of 9 or lower as a 10 for any check they have proficiency in. That makes it impossible for a proficient rogue to fail a DC 15 ability check after level 13 (or after level 11, if they have any ability score modifier).
And a 5th level rogue is most likely +4 if not +5 due to ASI … they also get expertise again at jut at one level so have expertise across 4 skills which is their core really
So +10 to 11 is Noel, plus reliable … a lot more like b/x
In the old days (b/x) I found that I leveled up fast (skulking around the back with the MU). But I was soon getting into "side stuff" the dm had to judge, and this inevitably became an extra solo session. I level really good now and even got the MU to come in on a few (and dispelled some 'reasonable suspicion' the rest of the party had). Once you obtain that ring of invisibility you are on track to open up a world of awesome. Bag of holding on an invisible thief is like a giant amoeba crossed with a licensed and weighed semi truck. Play it smart and you can avoid a lot of poison and other trap effects, or line up some magic to mitigate risks.
I had lots of fun with the class.
The ability to read scrolls can be a lot of fun for thief players. You want to get yourself a nice collection of scrolls, so you have a whole deck of card's worth of aces up your sleeve when things go bad.
I once destroyed a evil wizard with a disintegrate scroll!! Poof!!
@@midnightgreen8319I was always a little leary about reading scrolls like that. I'd hate to disintegrate myself.
But scrolls like Knock, Comprehend Languages, Invisibility and the like are incredibly handy to have.
@@CaptCook999 It was an emergency action lol. The wizard was absolutely crushing us!
You can see this represented in the Goblin Slayer anime, where the titular protagonist has levels in Thief and often uses Scrolls in a pinch.
I always thought the thief portrait was bucktoothed but just today I realized it's just lines on his lip
I was the same! I still can’t un-see it though. 🙂
I would have kept the 13 Int score. Since you were going to play this as a wandering thief, cunning enough to build a network of affiliates and to exploit any occasion to enrich himself, having some more brains than the average commoner would have been appropriate.
And also that would have meant one extra language and one extra skill at first level. Extra skills are always welcome for a class that survives on being able to do a lot of things. And extra languages are good when you travel a lot.
In modern games, from 3.x onward, Int is actually the main ability score of the rogue, precisely because it gives him more skills. Dex is only as useful to have as for any other character class.
A good point!
I'm intrigued by the gang wars idea for a BECMI thief... that can be fun.
Great video, as always. I've heard mumers of controversy around BX/BECMI Thief before, but never understood it as being for these reasons. Ironically, you've brought a lot of light to the Thief discussion. Stay cool, and still keen for them Dwarfs, both the Gaz and the Let's Roll!
As more of an OD&D/AD&D man, the awkward role of thieves in the '80s basic lines (where they were limited to being single class humans) has only become more glaring to me over time. As early as Greyhawk, it was clear that the class was specifically meant to synergize with/buff demihumans. They have unlimited advancement as thieves only, can multi-class to cover the base class' weaknesses, start with significant skill bonuses, can very crucially see in the dark, and have their miscellaneous perks on top of all that. Human are objectively the poorest thieves in this context and limiting the class to them borders on missing the point completely.
It's even more of a struggle in BECMI than B/X, too, since Frank Mentzer himself admitted that stretching the thief skill percentages out over 36 levels for BECMI was "a huge mistake." If he can freely admit it, why can't we?
Oh, and no backstab multiplier advancement for some reason? Never understood that choice.
So the human-only thief with nerfed skill progression is the worst version of the worst version of what was arguably an underwhelming class from the start. I appreciate your stab at apologetics, but I gotta call it as I see it in that Greegan would be better off existing in any other TSR edition. ;)
Thanks for the comment. I wish I’d mentioned that Mentzer quote in the video. I knew of it but forgot. Grrr…
If I’m honest, I would like to examine the circumstances of the quote. Mentzer was challenged a lot on the changes but that was by BX-ers unhappy with the changes. I think on balance it’s not that bad, which is why I laboured the comparison with 5e so much.
As for backstab, I think I agree with you.
Perhaps I'm just spoiled by modern D&D, but I'm generally of the feeling that limiting classes by race is just a bad move. As I'm fond of saying, "all else being equal, more options is better than fewer options". Players shouldn't be limited in what race-class combinations they can employ, just by designer fiat. I don't think whatever reasons BECMI's designers had for limiting the Thief to only humans is sufficient to justify the narrative and gameplay absence of non-human Thieves.
Agreed on the point about Thief abilities starting too low. Behavior a game rewards is behavior a game encourages. The reverse is also true: behavior a game penalizes is behavior it discourages.
Making the Thief so poor at basic abilities notionally pertinent to being a Thief doesn't make players appreciate some hypothetical point in the future where they've become really good at it. It makes them avoid using any Thief abilities (aside from Climb) until they've reached a level where their chances for success are better, and the cost of failure less severe (because they have more HP to soak damage).
I don't think I'm in the minority when I think this is directly opposed to the intent of the class. Avoiding doing any "Thief things" for what will, on average, be the majority of time spent playing a Thief for most players. Nor do I think "it gets good at X level" is really comforting to the person who sat down to play D&D for fun. Any more than "it gets better 20 hours in" makes a video game good. Why is the experience not fun from the word "go"?
At least when you play a Fighter, you're getting the Fighter experience from the start. You hit things, and they die.
@@Bluecho4 Obviously I agree. Playing a thief would be much more doable if most of the traps and locks were 'Very easy +50%' or 'Easy +25%', and rather than bad things happening on any failed Remove Traps, it would only punish you if the roll is like 90+, or in a pinch, double your success chance like with Pickpocket. As I mentioned my own comment, we just made Thief Abilities into skills, and they have values around 40-50% at the start, which makes for a much nicer playing experience for a thief at lower levels.
@@Bluecho4 You have a point on limiting class but…more options isn’t necessarily better than fewer options. That is what slows new RPG’s such as 5E down to a crawl. Everyone has 10,000 options to sift through before during and after their turn. That’s why about 75% of the players at the table are looking at their electronic devices more than listening to the DM. With fewer written options you have to use your imagination to do what you want. Describe what you want to accomplish and let the DM decide how to adjudicate the situation. This actually leads to more flexibility…if your DM is doing his job correctly and not stifling play.
Every video reminds me of just how great the BECMI rules set were/are. I admit to being sucked into the notion that 5E is the culmination of D&D rules. I think that were I to start a new campaign, it will be in MYSTARA with the BECMI rules. Thanks for all the great, thought provoking content!
I seldom played thieves as i was usually going dwarf or fighter, which I'm still reminded that "no one plays", but the thief was almost always the most useful character in our party due to the sheer amount of traps and obstacles we needed to get around.
One thing ppl miss is that the thief levels up Fast! This is very important
I seem to be in the minority of players who love the old Thief class! Totally agree with all you said about the skills and as it says in players book, unlike magic you can use those skills over and over.
Also, the XP required to level up as a Thief is lower than any other class. So, although you start with only D4 HP by the time the Elf is still on level 1 with 3,000 XP you will already be on level 3!
Some other benefits of the Thief are that you can use any one handed weapon or any missile weapon. With DEX as your main stat and low HP the Thief is always best off as an archer. But being able to use a normal sword (D8 damage) means your backstab can do a lot of damage given the chance.
One of my favourite modules for BECMI was M1 Blizzard Pass, which gave you the chance to play a solo adventure as a Thief. Its just so much more fun than the other classes.
My favorite class Berserker. Had one get to tenth level he even started a small Thieves Guild. He is at present time invading a jewelry shop in a ruined town. With a Half elf and mage party members.
Thank you for another great trip down nostalgia lane!
Thieves definitely shined when supported properly, in case things went wrong. They wereca good utility class that could be made more fun with magical items. Thanks for another great review!
When I was younger, I never found Thieves to be that interesting. Sure, their skills seemed cool, but the percentages were all so low, and the class had so few hit points. However, I've begun to find them more appealing; I love the idea of a character who focuses on solving problems through wit and stealth rather than direct combat. In that regard, I feel like Thieves are an embodiment of the "old-school" philosophy of gameplay popular in OSR culture, in which the game is viewed almost as a puzzle to be solved -- or failed -- rather than a series of balanced fights that you're expected to face head-on and win.
I finally understood the thief. It was very mystifying. Thank you.
No school like the old school.
An interesting video.
Oo is dwarf next? Dwarves are my favorite! Unless I missed a video? Really like your work keep it up 😊
Dwarf is next.
Sidenote: 5e rogue would most likely pick expertise in stealth, thief tools etc. so their proficiency would be doubled for these tasks and thus they would actually have much higher chance of success then what you shown.
Thanks. Have pinned and earlier comment that picked this up.
as a DM, I give low level thieves a bonus to lock picking etc if they take more time - but this incurs a greater chance of wandering monsters etc. Another excellent video ty
Another thought on that subject is to give bonuses and penalties.
For instance, when picking a lock, a simple lock would give a bonus while a difficult lock would give a penalty.
For moving silently, wearing soft boots should add a bonus while hard boots should give a penalty.
Hiding in shadows can have a lot of factors. What color clothing are they wearing? Forest colors in a forest might give a bonus. But wearing a black cloak in a snowy area is going to give you a penalty.
And all traps are not alike. A simple trap might be eazy to find or disarm. But a complex, well hidden trap might give a penalty.
It's all up to the DM to decide but it's the players duty to ask the questions. Your basic lock is one thing but the lock on a treasure vault will be much harder to pick, don't you think.
And only once in all my years playing did I ever find a magic set of thieves picks and tools. But I have had my thieves pony up the cash to get High Quality Picks and Tools. I think that they gave a +5% to pick locks and remove/set traps.
@@CaptCook999 really good advice. Also easier to hide in shadows if the enemies are distracted etc
I had this idea of converting the dexterity bonuses from the +1, +2, +3 to, +5%, +10%, +15% for all thief skills. People may say that "find traps" could be modified by wisdom or intelligence, but since dexterity is their prime requisite we can stick to that. This means that with a dexterity of 18, a thief has a 30% chance to pick a lock instead of a lowly 15%. We could also do level 1 skill points, like 15% to distribute but that's up to the group playing.
I am enjoying this video series. Good job.
Love this series of videos. Great job!!!!
Great Video, to be honest I never knew that Thieves could improve their chances by planning their skills properly, I only thought planning initiated them, Why isn't this compiled properly in becmi books?
The thief has been a class I've always had mixed feelings about in terms of concept, where sometimes I want them in my game, other times I don't, sometimes I port the 2e version of the thief where you can buff up your skills at each level from your choice in order to make him specialized.
The unique strengths of the thief though are the fact that the skills are extraordinary, which unfortunately isn't conveyed through the rules too well, but it does indirectly buff the thief. For example: anyone can try to hide somewhere, but the thief can hide in shadows. Any character can try to be quiet, but the thief can move silently. This is how one of the original players Mike Mornard described the thief, and despite my grievances about the thief, I think makes them more unique and not as horrid as their low skill numbers might seem for low levels.
Like if you're going to look at a chest and proceed to place your hands on it. Now, a more green player/character might make a mistake of not properly investigating the chest to see if it was trapped or had poison gel on it, and as such is taking a huge risk. A thief on the other hand, if one were to treat their "Find Traps" as a saving throw(which I read how some of the original players used that skill in this instance), the thief has a last ditch chance to notice that the chest has some contact poison gel on it, despite the player's recklessness.
Thieves know about things such as these, and with that information the group can proceed to take a more safe approach. For move silently or hide in shadows, I generally roll the thief skills on a d100, and if it fails I roll a 1d6 as an extra chance to see even though the thief failed move silently...does he at least move quiet enough to avoid detection? If he can't hide in shadows, is there perhaps a chance something even notices him to begin with?
And in the chaotic fray of combat, like on a surprise, I give thieves a chance to hide in shadows in order to try and get the jump on a weaker foe with their backstabif they don't want to just snipe with their probably above average dexterity. Sure the backstab damage doesn't improve like in let's say AD&D or OD&D...HOWEVER with weapon mastery it does since weapons do in fact do more damage with each point invested. Sorry for the wall of text, as I do find the thief and how they're played very interesting.
I appreciate the comparison between thief skills vs 5e equivalents. Makes the thief seem more balanced than at first glance. I think the comparison to a 5th Edition DC of 15 is good, and gives me a foundation for modifiers due to difficulty. An easy task could provide a 25% bonus to a roll (equivalent to DC 10 in 5e), which would allow for higher chance of success (and potentially satisfaction of playing a thief) for low level characters (i.e. throw in a poor lock here or there for a much higher 40% chance of success to pick it for the lowly level 1 thief). And the alternative for considering penalties for nearly impossible feats for high level play. Climbing an overhang might be a DC 25 in 5e, or for BECMI a 50% penalty to the climb check.
I mean, of course the DM was always empowered to provide bonuses and penalties in BECMI s as they see fit, but as a general reference for how large those modifiers might be, this was a useful comparison in my opinion.
Glad you found it useful.
my one greatest peeve with the Thief class in old D&D (before the new Rogue in 3.X and onwards) is, basically, how their skills... just doesn't seem to work properly, if not "interpreted" in a certain way. Stealth skills are one thing - you need to get a fair amount of levels before you can start considering using them as something else than a desperate Hail Mary maneuvers (the Hide in Shadows at least, in its most favourable interpretation, deserves its starting low percentages - but read on, I will mention working in darkness). There's, of course, the interpretation of using them "on top" of any "normal" (and not explicitly existing) rules for sneaking around for non-Thieves, but it still means that on lower levels these abilities are dead weight - you sacrifice HP, weapon and armor abilities for something you can't really use. Another thing are the "mechanical" abilities - in addition to laughably low success chances (which can easily end up with the Thief dying, in case of tampering with traps), on higher levels, these abilities can be often superseded by spellcasting, which, compared to Thief's abilities, is reliable and instant (even if it costs slots). Then, we have mere pickpocketing - ok, one might try to explain it that potential NPC pickpocketers aren't "built" in the same way as PCs (because obviously they aren't), but it still feels grossly unrealistic, despite everything fantastical, that a "player" Thief needs to basically become a small legend before they can reliably attempt pickpocketing without a large risk of getting caught. And, lastly, how, in dungeons environment, the need for light makes Human thieves basically unusable for anything other than trying to pick locks... especially as some versions (forgot if it was BECMI, B/X, OD&D Greyhawk, or ADnD) actually mention that darkness is not shadows.
There's that one not-quite-retroclone-anymore, ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System), which is getting a second edition soon, and, while it keeps classic Thief abilities with same percentages as in B/X (just expressed in a different way, specifically like saving throws are expressed, rolled on d20 equal or higher), it rebalances the game to make Thieves more usable:
- ability to use the "mechanical" abilities hastily or deliberately - hasted attempt take only 1 combat round (or no really tracked time during turn movement), and, if failed, can be retried deliberately; deliberated attempt takes a full turn as usual, but has a 20% percentile chance increase (or, rather, +4 on d20). Most importantly, detection abilities of the Thief can be used passively ("hastily"), in the same way as Elves and Dwarves can just detect certain things nearby.
- spells that basically duplicate Thief abilities were removed/replaced. There's a spell for breaking through a door, but there's no longer a spell allowing to sneakily pick a lock.
- simlarily, no more common infravision - most beings that had infravision (especially playable humanoid) does not have it anymore, making stealth much more viable even in dungeons
- Thieves get "shadowy senses" - explained as a nigh-superhuman (but not quite) combination of trained, heightened senses of sound, touch, and smell (which apparently, while rare, isn't exactly unreal), allowing Thieves to be able to remain "operational" even without light, to a degree.
The only thing unfixed is the freakin' pickpocketing.
its been so long i dont recall the numbers but i almost always played with a buffed thief. its been 30 years but i think we started with 3rd levels chances then progressed 2 lines at a time. i seem to remember it balanced out to be more like 1e and was pretty strong after level 10 or 12
Thanks for this great series!
I think part of the criticism is that there are a number of spells that perform similar functions to thief skills, but automatically succeed (knock, find traps,etc.). So Thieves are nerfed as a class relative to other classes. At low levels they can’t thieve or fight and at higher levels they aren’t needed.
The Thief isn't limited to a number of Knocks per day, and doesn't need to decide ahead of time to pack Knock or Find Traps in place of a combat spell or a spell that can bypass completely different types of hazard or puzzle. Also, a thief is supposed to just automatically succeed a correctly roleplayed and intentional form of reasonable stealth or trap evasion or stealing things at a time when the owner legitimately wouldn't notice (same circumstances a stealthily-armored fighter would successfully climb or steal or poke a bear trap with a stick to trigger it and the like); the rolls on Thief Skills are over and above this, Hide in Shadows isn't just visual stealth but literally turning invisible when a shadow is cast on you, Move Silently is literally moving around without making any sound for a thing using the sense of hearing to detect, and Climb Sheer Surfaces is more of a Spider-Man climb than just getting a good grip on a reasonable climbing surface. And Use Magic Device is bypassing an otherwise mage- or cleric-only magic item and making it work for you anyway, despite being a non-spellcaster Thief.
I love your videos thank you so much for all the effort
You are so welcome!
That's a very viable Thief!!
Please include the mystic in this series
Will get an honorary episode after the ‘core’ seven.
Great video! I’m enjoying this series. Do you plan to do a video on the Mystic class?
Druid and Mystic will get an honourable mention video at the end of the season.
Thief skills maxing out around level 14 comes from OD&D, not B/X itself. Early printings of BECMI Basic and Expert also copied the B/X Thief skills directly, only after Companion was they changed in future printings to mach. So it's clear they didn't really know what to do with higher-level Thieves right up 'til Companion was written.
Personally I feel the obvious choice would be to turn higher-level Thieves into basically Assassins (at-least as an option) like had been done with Fighters and Paladins (/Knigts/Avengers). It's the one OD&D+Supplements class not in BD&D. Bring back Backstab advancement, drop the paid-assassin angle if they have to and just embrace the ninja-like stealthy warrior who movies throught crowds unnoticed, who take out the enemies one-by-one by suddenly jumping down from the ceiling and then disappearing back into the shadows. As someone who played a lot of Wizardry, but only had the BE of BECMI in my native language, this is always what I assumed that natural old-school progression of the Thief would be, and it feels kinda odd how much B/X and BECMI seem to downplay this angle for the Theif compared to OD&D.
In 1st edition, the Thief was my best character.
In 2nd edition, I enjoyed Thieves even more than in 1st edition because of the changes to how to improve percentage based skills.
In 5th edition.... I never use Rogues. I don't find them to be fun for my play style.
I find it interesting that you spent so much time on the leveling percentage improvements, yet didn't address what I believe is the most damning of all criticisms to the old-school thief. You actually do reference it, at 13:26. Some of these I get, like pickpocketing, but I just cannot believe the idea that a fighter can't climb, even if he would have to remove armor to do so. And why can't anyone try to hide or sneak? Even if they aren't as good as thieves it is weird to say "they can't". This also bleeds into some confusion I have about the regular skill system. Is the book attempting to suggest that I can't LIE without taking a skill in deception?
Either than that, I'm really loving this series.
Edit: just because I should add how I have handled this in the past (though this wasn't BECMI). I made thief skills be handled as "OR" rolls. So let me generate a dex score by rolling some dice. 8, so not the best thief in the world, but he's good for the explanation. If we associate trap disabling with dexterity, then the thief has a 40% chance from his dexterity, and a 10% chance from his class and level. We know from an application of DeMorgan's Theorem that A | B = ~(~A & ~B), so we can see the thief has a total chance of 46%. Still not great, but good enough, and we are still free as GMs to modify one or both rolls if we want to make it harder. It is not a complicated process - just roll a d20 and a d100 at the same time and check if at least one of the numbers is good enough, and it allows for other classes to attempt stereotypically "thievish" actions, provided they can offer a decent explanation on why I should allow it.
Thanks for the comment. I can understand the frustration with this, but the way I get round it is through use of the Skills system in the RC. It can allow the kinds of activities your referring to without being a Thief.
A downside is that it's possible to outshine the class that specialises in these abilities. How I deal with this is anyone can attempt a check if they have the Skill, but there are some things that only a Thief can do. The players at my table buy into this and it keeps the Thief, and other classes, relevant.
Hope this helps.
Have never and would never play B/X to 36th level. It stops at 14 for me. I think B/X (and OSE) is vastly superior to BECMI - I really dislike the clunky skills and weapon skills additions to that part of the game. Mind you, I'd change a lot of things in any version of D&D - eg, Replace Wisdom with a Perception attribute and make cleric Charisma based - so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.
Really nice analysis though, interesting video as always!
Every opinion valued here. Thanks for watching!
Another great class video, Berserker! I always appreciated the option in BECMI to adjust the ability scores, especially if you were rolling by the strict method! I always wondered however, at the limitation on which abilities one could drop to bump a Prime Requisite. Why can't one lower Dex, Con, or Cha?
Thanks. As for why one can’t lower those stats, I don’t actually know. I’m getting the question often enough to try to find out though.
I think the reason is that the "main" D&D classes were the trio from Original D&D: Fighting Man (Strength), Magic-User (Intelligence), and Cleric (Wisdom) so you can shuffle around the stats that, in that edition, did nothing but determine if you qualified for those classes (and Elf by exceeding the minimum requirements of both Fighting Man and Magic-User) and gave bonus experience if you truly excelled in those realms. Thief wasn't really a core class in the same sense as those three, and Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma were the stats that truly _did something_ mechanically (Dexterity improving Armor Class by one stage at high levels and improving missile weapon fire, Constitution increasing Hit Points and I believe some saving throws but not as many as you'd think, and Charisma being the most important as it determines interactions with followers, hirelings, and henchmen which are the bulk of your combat interactions). All classes had roughly equal value for Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma.
So basically you're just saying "I didn't study Wizardly Academics or practice my religious piety as fervently to focus on my Strength" at character generation, or likewise shuffling your preferences towards wizard or cleric over the other two main classes. And you needed to already have very high potential in one of those areas in order to neglect it a lot and gain a little bit of a boost to the one you're really focusing on - your unadjusted stat spread is where you would lie from a normal, balanced upbringing and your natural talent levels.
@@RoninCatholic I had long suspected it was related to something along those lines, but always wondered why once the Thief became a core class (long before BECMI was published) the ability to adjust was never changed to reflect that. It just always seemed a strange and arbitrary feeling restriction to me, and I'd love to have an understanding of the reasoning, beyond mere theorizing.
@@Gaurelin Personally, I think the Thief should've just had its official Prime Requisite be Intelligence. Not all clever, learned people are going to be magical...some if not more are going to be crafty. Dexterity still being a good thing for a Thief to have, but not considered _the_ thing to have. Thieves are built more about the skills/proficiencies they _know_ than how deft their legs and fingers are as a biological baseline.
That or there should've been two other "base professions" built around Constitution and Charisma respectively and all that would entail, not merely four for STR, INT, WIS, and DEX.
@@RoninCatholic I can see your point, but then we are starting to dip into a level of class complexity that is at odds with the very straightforward design aesthetic of BECMI. Thieves need to be nimble and have very steady hands in order to perform their class functions, so Dex always made sense to me.
Oh wow. First.
(Nope, Eron got it first! Seconded, then. :P)
As I mentioned in the announcement comments, in our new BECMI campaign, I switched the Thief Abilities to Skills, and even bundled them up a bit. I am using our house-rule that the skill value = (stat+level)/2, so that the skill keeps increasing automatically with levels. In addition, if a player spends another slot on the skill, it gets +3, which is a way for a thief character to specialize, too. Thief is basically a skill monkey.
My big beef with the RAW thief abilities is that the penalties for failure are harsh enough that you don't really want to be even using the skills. For example, a first level thief trying to pickpocket a 1st level character would have a chance of 20-5 = 15%. So 15% chance of succeeding, 15% chance of failing, and 70% chance of getting caught. Not worth it. Find Traps + Remove Traps is in some way even worse. You have a 10% chance of finding a trap and if you do that, you have a 10% chance of disarming it but a 90% chance of triggering it. So in other words, I have a 1% combined chance of successfully finding and removing a trap. With those odds, it is a wonder that any thief reaches the 2nd level! The only way to make a 1st level thief actually succeed in their thief abilities is to be very very generous with the bonuses, but alas, the RC section talks mainly about penalties, which easily can lead a novice DM to think just in terms of nerfing these skills further. As for Climb Walls, best to stay on very low walls, given the low HP. Assuming 4 HP for the 1st level thief, every time he climbs a 20' tall wall, there is about 1/16th chance of him falling and breaking his neck: Climb Walls 87%, failure on 13% (roughly one in eight), causing him to fall from 10' up = 1d6 damage, 4+ damage 50% of the time. Climbing a taller wall bumps the fall damage to an almost certain death.
As for Backstab, I think that the damage multiplier should improve with levels. Not sure at what level it should be, but allowing backstab to do x3 at 12th, x4 at 24th and x5 at 36th would sound OK to me. The weapon mastery rules already effectively do this, as it improves the damage dice already, so a higher level thief naturally does already much more damage than without the WM rules. That being said, a Fighter still gets the multiple attacks even with a higher damage dice, so I might be tempted to 'double dip' with a higher modifier. A high level thief backstabbing you should be a major threat: against a 36th level fighter, 8d4 tickles, but 20d4 is starting to smart (assuming a Grandmasterly 4d4 dagger damage).
In our campaign, I allow Backstab with ranged weapons as well, as long as the target is unaware and moving in a predictable way. I.e. not really doable while they are in combat, but great for assassinating people waving from the balcony or standing on guard. It allows the Thief to lean into their high DEX, too.
Speaking of, I have been considering to let the Thief use DEX to improve their THAC0 in melee as well, but I might limit it to daggers and shortswords. GAZ 11 (Darokin) already has this option for Rapiers (EDIT: I misremembered this, GAZ 11 makes Rapiers quite overpowered at -1 dmg but +2 to hit and -2 AC compared to normal swords; I guess I got the DEX to hit from an older house-rule or Pathfinder), so I don't think it would be a huge issue, and it would help the Thieves to actually keep themselves alive. No damage bonus, of course. The lack of armor and shield is really keeping them away from the front line anyway, and the Fighter's weapon mastery and STR usually gives them a lot more oomph anyway, not to mention the double HP, so it doesn't really steal the Fighter's limelight, either.
Your thoughts align with the modern evolution of the Thief/Rogue. You can see the inspiration came from these gaps.
I like your ideas for thief abilities as skills and your "skill=(stat+level)/2." I might have to stea....er, um, appropriate these ideas.
I don't really see much wrong with B/X thieves having such high chances of success compared to BECMI or 5e because otherwise spells like Knock or Comprehend Languages or True Seeing would make thieves obsolete. It's the fact that thieves can do these things reliably and repeatedly that makes them a valuable part of the team.
And I've never played past 16th level at the absolute highest ever so the maximum of 36 has always felt purely theoretical to me.
I'll settle for Bronze
I don't know how a thief survived to 14th level, given how deadly traps are and with a find traps skill so low and remove traps even lower. How many sessions would it take you to get a character to 14th level, Berserker? That sounds like years of gameplay to me.
Does anyone know where he gets the art for his character portrait?
The character portraits are found in the Basic Red Box, by Frank Mentzer, drawn by Elmore and Easley.
@@becmiberserker thank you so much
logic behind thief cant use shields 0
First, lol