Few years back I was going to build small wooden stair step to neighbors porch and was checking out the pre - cut stair risers at the stores. They were all of odd size and it would be too hard to use one and get even spaced steps so I just did it my own way without the conventional ' riser ' and besides being cheaper it was easier to get totally equal steps.
Grading is king and will kill a deck if the patio or interlock at grade can't be adjusted. The other challenge is landings people forget the finished height of the landing at the lowest step on the landing, but will get the top ones right.
As a ICC building inspector I approve the video. We have many DYI projects in my state and this will certainly save them time and money. We charge $150 for Rejected Inspections in our City.
Thank you! The guys I hired to build my deck thirty(!) years ago walked off the job without doing the steps......so I 'knocked them out' one weekend. They've worked AND lasted, but with not a single rise or run equal to another, now I know why everybody's always tripped walking up or down them!
My reading of the "code" is that the variation in elevation - tread to tread - cannot exceed 3/8". I don't know if that also applies to the depth of the tread. However, the rationale for stairs is that by the time that a user has made the second step, the mind has calculated the rise and run and expects that ratio to continue. So, if the measurements change, the mind can become confused and the user may trip.
Framers, stair builders use same calcs... as a drafter I have to use the area I'm given, usually in a remodel and working with the architect. But I love the designs I've seen. Some are elegant. Others are utilitarian. While others are clean architectural based. Then there's the hide away stairs or fold aways in smaller homes. Wow!!
I've always wondered if there is really a need to look how human beings have gotten larger, including the feet as it pertains to stairs, that certain sizings throughout the built environment should be reviewed periodically from a human engineering standpoint. A 6 foot ceiling height certainly would not be allowed today, but four hundred years ago it was common, just as an example. So many stair cases just seem small to my size 12 feet. I find myself walking down undersized depth treads with my feet set sideways just to get a steady footing. Size twelve is not really a big foot anymore.
@@mikegrant8490 , agreed, my inspector is 6'4" , I think their thought process is the ball of the foot would be on the tread only as you push up to step on the next step , (not really stopping to stand on the tread , if You have the distance, I perfer to use lower rise and a 15" - 20" tread, which in turns change it to more tread and code is 3 treads or 4 riser (same) requires a handrail , I have made serval for elderly in their garage that are attach, just make sure You have the distance , if you look at a 2 tread 3rise 10 tread that only 20" off the wall but if Your using a wider tread like 15" it would 30" for 2 treads and 40" if it 20" tread , then go to a 4" rise of and it become 45" off the wall or 60" (5ft) on a 20" tread , it may be easier to build a 3ft landing and turn the stairs sideways. Guess I got a little of track LOL , must people on use 1/2 the tread when going up or down stairs
I'm no carpenter, not a joke. However, I have a friend who is and he builds stairs for himself with 5" risers. His preference for this dimension is due to having to wear braces on his legs due to a degenerative bone disease. I have neuropathy and have had knee surgery. At 74, I don't anticipate any improvement. Once I walked up his stairs it took all strain off my knees and descending the stairs with my numbness was made easier. I realize that this extends the staircase; but where feasible it is a great help to those with mobility issues. Also, on site stairs, dock stairs and the like it makes carrying stuff up and down easier and I feel its safer.
One of the terms used for this type of stair is "easy riser." For some people, elderly in particular, they make the difference between being able to continue living in their home and not.
On the subject of trip hazards: A few years ago, we moved into a rental home with a completely whacked set of (only TWO!) steps from the ground to the top of the deck. The first step from the ground had a 4X4 partially embedded in the ground holding up the risers from the dirt. the rise was about 9 inches from the ground to the first step. the next step was about 6 or 7 inches (per manufacturing guidelines), and the rise to the deck from there was at least 8 inches. VERY DISCONCERTING as you walk up the steps. I replaced the two-riser assembly with a three-riser assembly and firmly attached the riser assembly to the deck at the same RISE as the steps had, and ensured the bottom step started from the same point in space as the rises each ascended. In other words: this little two-step assembly had THREE different rises from ground to deck-- and, trust me, this was far and away more trip-worthy than any variation in tread width!
In my short time doing decks, the little box steps we would sometimes have to make down to the ground ALWAYS gave us the most trouble for finding that sweet spot. Whether it was unlevel ground sloping parallel to the deck or just an inconvenient height those little stair sets are usually the most dangerous.
@@Industrialitis Easiest solution I've found is to provide a small 3'x3' or 4'x'4' concrete or compacted gravel landing at the base to make the steps consistent. No one usually has a problem with whatever step is created between the landing and the grade of the yard.
A lot of diyers use those precut stringers which only work out if you start out with them before you build your deck . If you don’t consider the rise height of those stringers before you build then they won’t work properly .
Stair nosing are actually a safety item when descending stairs as they prevent heel clip on the riser. If you’re going to be a carpenter be a carpenter put a nosing on it.
Nosings are also a health and dafety item for visually impaired persons when going up a stair. One would run their foot up the face of the riser and would know they have reached the top of the step when their foot strikes the nosing.
@@michaelachambers7870 If they are 100% concrete, you never put a "nosing" on any of the steps. Concrete is extremely strong in compression but very brittle in stress. A nose will quickly start to break away. Even a sharp 90 degree edge will quickly erode and start breaking off which is why concrete edges are always suppose to be rounded. I have seen concrete steps that were designed using a non-concrete material on the landing that stuck out to form the nose. Never found out what it was and was not around long enough to see how well it worked.
Thank you for sharing.👍🏼 Following code is basic instruction in apprentice training starting with forms and foundations. Our MLP's (manipulative lesson plan) says it on every page. By the time you get to framing, it is burned in your brain simply because code will vary and even drawings can illustrate something that won't pass where you are. I picked up as good of workers habits as I could in my union JATC training. I enjoyed this topic you posted 👍🏼
Thanks for the video. I dont like the combination of a nosing with verticals behind the treads. Wearers of sandals are more likely to catch the nosing with the sandal end, especially looser types. No back is more common in Australia, especially where exposed to weather.
recently saw an episode of This Old House where they rebuilt a staircase for someone with an artificial leg. The tread nose is something older people catch their foot on, so they slanted the riser to gain tread width but eliminated the nose. The whole idea here was to allow reusing the railings and balusters so there was minimal change to the look of the older home.
I built an exterior deck stair for an elderly couple who wanted 13" wide threads with no nosing and 5" rise. It was very uncomfortable for me to use it, but watching them use it made some sense. They would step up 1 step at a time, each step acting as a mini landing.
A review of the building code a couple of years ago, on the three sets of stairs on my neighbor's deck he was building, revealed the expression of keeping any stair system "consistent" throughout. The trip hazard occurs when there is an inconsistency and the brain needs it to be consistent to prevent a destabilizing effect, either catching a toe, the heel sliding off or a stumbling up or down from a variance in the height. The nosing in this video is well pointed out as an inconsistency. The 7-11 rule shows that it is the safest overall, based on the brain science and the 18 inch overal requirement. All three of his sets violated the consistency principle, unfortunately.
A bit of useless trivia from a guy in construction design in the UK here: Many medieval castles used to have one bastard step on a staircase. The idea was those that were resident at the castle would gain muscle memory of the odd step and could run up and down without issue. An invading force charging up the steps would be unaware and be likely to fall, giving the advantage to the residents in an emergency. This would probably create quite the pileup of armour-clad soldiers at the bottom of a narrow spiral staircase.
@@IanDarley That's not useless trivia! That's the psychology of battle and siege. When you realize that they engineered it like this, it's genius! Thanks for your perspective.
Apartment I live in they rebuilt our porch and steps ( concrete ) and the top step is just a tiny bit taller. I hit it often and it makes me trip going up. It doesn't take much.
@@michaelszczys8316 I redid my neighbor's front porch a couple of years ago and took down the very top brick step to the landing to the height of the other steps and leveled it to the landing allowing for drainage. The best part of it is the satisfaction of knowing that they no longer have a trip hazard and they no longer have a water ponding issue, especially in the freezing weather. For years, I tripped up on their porch and noticed that landing was over an inch deeper, a more potential trip hazard going down, wrong both ways ... until I told them I felt compelled to fix it. Today, they're happy. The overall height of all the treads is within 1/8 of an inch and all it took was taking a diamond blade and shaping the top to create a 1/8 inch drain slope over the width of the top bricks back to the existing landing's level. I also tuck pointed all the bricks, made other repairs and repainted the metal railings after re-anchoring them. Your apartment steps could be done in a similar manner by an experienced mason based on what you've stated. It's a safety issue, especially since the new concrete steps offer a dangerous departure from what was previously there. Demand that the landlord fix it properly. Contact your local building authorities and force a resolution, noting that it maybe appears to be a code violation issue.
We have a stairway with no nosing. It’s ugly and covered with carpet. I would love a video describing how to install good quality wooden treads, back walls AND nosing, without rebuilding the entire stairway. I agree completely; each step MUST be the same. Add new decking on top of the first step and you have now made a deeper step. This is a project I have longed to do. A good video on what NOT to do would be helpful.
I have found that six inch riser makes much easier for all to transverse. A one inch lip or overhang on the tread also makes an easier climb. Yes, this is good advice that only the experienced builder would know.......thanks.
Agree the lower the rise the easier the climb , I built my steps with a 4" rise with a the tread being 12 1/4 from nosing to nosing wise a 2x6 and a 2x8 ( 4" is the min, in My area ) You literally just walk
All of this says to me, "The human body is a marvel." A regular person like me, not trained in the trades, wouldn't think such a small difference would matter. It's fascinating to discover that it does.
@@chrismalchoff7552 Over the last 40 years, I've built countless numbers of stairs. A 1/4" inch difference is the maximum amount allowed by code, at least where I was working. On a set of stairs, if all treads are level, but one, that one slightly unlevel tread can trip you up, even if it's only out of level by a half degree. I don't know how to explain it other than as you start up the stairs, your body gets in a rhythm and any deviance can throw it off
Exactly. In Canada, the code is no step can be anymore than 5mm (3/16) different from the next step (up or down). That's the same rule for both the rise AND the run.
A standard stair machine at a gym is usually 8" rise 10" run, and those steps feel steep but not excessively short, plus you're not going down them in a forwards direction, though sometimes I could do with a bit more toe room. I can see how 7" by 11" or 6.5" by 12" feels less effort, although take more space. I've been in a house with 7" by about 9" stairs and it felt slightly Teletubby-ish to walk up them, although there was some underhang for more foot room when climbing up the stairs but not so helpful down them. On the winder stair portions I definitely preferred a longer run. It made the glutes work slightly more and the quads slightly less, so the motion felt more natural with the shin more vertical on the next step, instead of knee forward on the shorter run steps. Often space constraints mandate a shorter than optimal run, and or a longer than optimal rise though.
I have done a lot of interior and exterior stairs, and came to the conclusion that around 7-1/2' plus or minus and 1/8, is the most comfortable to me. But everybody is different.
On my deck (16’x48’) I have 2 sets of stairs. One is in the middle and one on the corner. The deck is 18” off the ground. The middle stair has 2 steps, 9” rise. The corner stairs has 3 steps, 6” rise. I built this in 2004. Code in our area is a maximum of 7 3/4” rise. The three step staircase has a railing, the 2 step does not. When I built this Twenty years ago that was no problem, Today I’m 76 years old and now I can’t use the middle stairs, but have no problem with the corner stairs, yes the railing helps, but so does the stair height. Now I understand the code……Thanks…Jim PS…..on my laundry list is a new 3 step stair case in the middle with railing.
Thanks for the video! You say, "Most of the time the stairs will have a nosing and the deck won't." Why won't the deck have a nosing? Most decks should have a nosing or decking overhang. It shouldn't be flush --especially if you are using wood for the decking. You are correct that the steps should all be as similar as possible. It would be a big failure for the building inspector to miss that one step is 10" and the rest are 11" in run, nosing to nosing. But you are right, most inspectors probably wouldn't get close enough to the deck stairs to notice, let alone measure.
If the deck builder knows about nosing's, (the reason I made the video) then you will have a nosing if the stairs do, if not then no nosing and you're welcome.
As a taller guy I like the 11-7 in a set of steps compared to the 12-6. I don't like the 5" and 4" risers in parks / public areas, but I understand they are easier to traverse for the elderly.
As a taller guy as well, i prefer 12/6 steps. More for descending steps. I find that only about half my foot lands on the tread when going down steps, unless i skew my feet at an angle. Not particularly comfortable or safe. But it’s impossible to make one staircase that’s good for a 5’8”, 80 year old and a 6’3”, 40 year old.
As one fellow already said, the most serious problem is uneven rises. Where I live, a stair must have no more than one eigth of an inch difference in rises (including landings and floor covering) or fail inspection. Your nose issue is easy to fix. Also like someone else already said, fix it! Better yet, read the Building Code stair requirements before building your stairs. It really is easy to understand and is online. Also, there are strict requirements for "grabable" railing requirements and heights and when needed on both sides and when not. Read the bldg code.
Here’s the herring bone, the 11” is because we use 5/4” or 2”x 6” lumber, the most accepted way to build is cut stringer 10” to get 1” nosing or 1 3/4 “ for 3/4” riser, which the stair tread is 11” to the riser not the front of above stair, in your example you’d have to rip 1” off of a 2x6?
In medieval fortress, height of each step is varied, deliberately, to make enemy prone to slip and fall. Important to make the height of each step the same. I prefer not to use nosing. Instead, on the vertical board, isn't installed exactly vertical. The bottom part is slightly inward, making it easy for the toe. Off course it's harder to built. 90 degree hazard. Eliminate any 90 degree because it's sharp. Any 90 degree need to be rounded, but the radial need to be as small as possible.
Oh yeah bring back memories when I started back in the early 80s. Got to pay attention n double check all measurements. You are so correct. Thanks bruh
You never seen a deck with PT balusters attached to fascia board for railing or composite decks with fascia covering cut sides of deck boards? Over half the decks I see dont have overhang even on new decks. I always picture box my decks though
The nosing looks nicer for the finished job but,over time that nosing or over hang can chip or just break off.I build them flush because of this reason.I live in Michigan so our weather can be awful as far as fast changes in climate.Snow,rain,ice,heat.
I once put together a solid Teak staircase. The skirt board was to be cut with a 45* angle - to meet the riser in a miter. The boss had to tell me the skirt board cost $1600 (thanks boss). He knew it wasn't easy and told me he bought two boards, just in case. I got it right the first time, 13 perfect miters under an oil finish. Could be the best thing I ever made in 34 years of carpentry. (the whole house, two floors, was in solid Teak (!) 19 million dollar property in Key West, Florida.) Due to a moratorium on Teak, the owner bought a house in Thailand, had it deconstructed and shipped to Miami where it was re-milled.
Sounds incredible. So people have to much money. I want that problem 😆. I have a friend that has amazing custome tree sized carvings from Thailand area. Gorgeous wood.
@@corysturgis6660 Talk about big money! - I talked to her personal carpenter, whom she would fly to her properties in Paris and NYC and who knows where, he told me she paid $100k per year for private parking at her apartment facing Central Park. At the Key West property the previous owners, the Johnsons (of Johnson & Johnson) had bought the back yards of everyone on the block. From the street the house looked like a typical Keys bungalow, but in reality the property was huge, with big swimming pool, big 'pool house' - all Teak, guest house and servant's quarters!
The one who trips in the 1st and third example may not be the inspector but the one who left his flashlight in the car. Your foot automatically measures tread and riser and effort should be taken not to vary. I gave a 👍.
Occasionally, a client will ask that there be no overhang. I usually walk away from those jobs. The 1" nosing is so "standard". I often note, that on carpeted stairs, the lack of nosing results in the upper portion of the carpeted riser is worn and stained. I think that's because we expect the nosing and have planted our feet too close to the riser. Perhaps someone has a different view of that problem.
Hello I'm a carpenter and have actually built stairs correctly. Never ever ever let a Mason build a wooden staircase. It WILL be wonky. You've been warned. Don't do it. 😉
Another problem that messes up a lot of people, including some "professionals", is confusion between the RUN and the TREAD. The examples shown here all have an 11 inch run, which its the measurement from rise to riser. That number stays the same, even with the 1 inch nosing. The nosing examples here gives you a 12 inch tread, but the run is still only 11 inches. The TOP step has no nosing above it (on the deck), but the RUN of it is STILL 11 inches like the rest, even though the entire 12 inch tread is now exposed. Cutting the back off the stringers like some suggest would now give that top step an 11 inch tread, but only a 10 inch run. That's an illegal situation in many places, where code says the run cannot vary any more than 5 mm (3/16 inch) between any 2 adjacent steps. The only real solution, like this video shows, is to make sure the nosings are consistent all the way up, including on the landing/deck surface, whether 1 inch each, less, or none at all.
I was a carpenter for 35+ years, and I can't remember the last time a building inspector even looked at treads and risers (and, I can tell you, I've seen some that were really whacked out of shape!) Most of the time the inspector was focused on handrail height and location.
For a short length of stairs (4 ft-ish), I took out a failing set of steps and put in landscape steps. These are stacked railroad ties (6 x 8). A little work with a chain saw and planer (to make the surface look nice) and a coil of Simpson strapping to tie them together...problem solved forever.
That's the run. The principle of repeatability also applies to the rise. Stringer mounting and bottom finishing need to accommodate any differences in thicknesses between the step material and the flooring material on both the upper and lower landings.
As a scrub lord who has no knowledge of construction what-so-ever, what is the benefit of nosing? Does it have a purpose, or is it just for aesthetic purposes?
I always liked to have the stringer go all the way to deck level. It adds an extra tread if there are not space limita😢tions on the run. Then the nosing or no nosing is not an issue to keep treads the same. Also the connection to the rim joist is stronger .
Every 90 degree tread edge should be rounded off to prevent splitting … it’s how most people walk , that is on the edge especially when descending the stairs … that’s the difference between builder grade and craftsmanship grade !!! … and don’t forget to “crown” each tread to keep it from “cupping” !!!
@@celticmulato2609 … crowning for treads means you look at the end of the board and if the growth rings appear to be shaped like a bowl that will mean it’s going to continue to cup like a bowl … hard to walk on …flip it over so the wood grain ( growth rings are like an upside-down bowl or “crown “ … crowning a joist or rafter , you have to eye it down the length and place that piece with the bow or “crown “ on the up side …hope that clears “crowning “ up !
The building code here in Alabama used to be 2 risers plus 1 tread should equal between 23 and 25”. Not more than a 1/4” variation tread to tread and not more than 1/2 in overall. But it has changed in the more recent code changes.
We would make sure there is a nosing on each step and the deck edges. The one thing I would point out in this case, is that is the stringer run are 11” and if you need a 1” nosing, the dimensional lumber needed will have to be a combination of standard and custom cut boards. If a treated board gets ripped down to suit the size needed, I’d suggest routering the cut edge and treating it to prevent rot and decay. Our best practice is to keep the stringer length at 10” with a 1” nose to use 2 sections of 2 X 6 treated boards. Thanks for the video, most people don’t understand these concepts and this is explained very well.
I have noticed around here the rise doesn't seem to be that important I have fallen a couple of times in the dark because the bottom step on the stairs in front of my house has a very short rise ( 4") in relation to the other steps. Two of the steps are 8 " and the top step is 7.5" . I noticed on one of the newer commercial buildings that the steps are not uniform and one has too much rise. I live in Tennessee. There were no building inspections for years.
The building code provides for a range of tread and riser dimensions but also provides a maximum variation from one tread or riser to the next. I don't recall what those dimensions are off the top of my head.
Another great video! In my case on my upcoming porch stair build, the porch has a narrow facia protruding out 1-3/4" from the deck which long story short, will not look good if I remove it. I want my tread nosing to be 3/4" so would the best way to resolve this be to add an inch wide ledger below the facia to reduce the protruding facia down to 3/4"? My new total run would be reduced by an inch as well correct? Sorry if this is obvious, first time stair builder here!
ALL stair steps and door steps should be REQUIRED to be at least 16 inches and without any nosing. My shoes are over 13 inches long, and, these days, many men have even longer feet. My wife and I were thinking of renting an apartment once, but we decided against it, because it had 8 inch stairs. Not only is that very stressful the feet of a tall person, but it also creates a very steep and dangerous staircase. Nosings are just fluff that reduce the effective depth of the step. They just create an unnecessary trip hazard for longfooted people who are already struggling to find space for their feet on short steps. If there are going to be building codes that we have to live with, they should be rewritten to serve ALL the people.
The simple rules to the design a safe straight staircase are:- 1. The profile of every step must be identical. 2. The rake of the stair must not exceed 42 degrees. 3. Width of tread + twice the height of riser = between 22 & 28 inches. The perfect ratio is 12" tread with 6" riser. Here in UK, nosings are not an issue. All domestic stairs must have 16mm (5/8") nosings over all risers. Winders? Ah! They are another set of rules all together.
I was fortunate enough to work along side some old tract/production framers here in So California in the early 80’s Piece work roof and stair cutting crews, nothing makes a guy learn faster when it comes out your own pocket…most building officials frown on any deviation nearing an 1/8 of an inch,
My dad used to stack roofs back in the 80s to that's where he learned most of his construction before he joined the union most peace workers know how to work I'm here from Southern California to
We had a new deck built a month ago. I didn’t think about any codes or measurements until I fell going down. Our measurements are fine. What the problem seems to be is they are too steep. The guys are coming tomorrow to check it. IM trying to understand how the stairway should go. There are 15 stairs with the one inch nose. Unfortunately no nose on the deck. How would you calculate the number of stairs to have. Thank you for any help. Barbara S
@@stairbuilding Only if you're going up. The stair width is effectively the same with nosing, as your video points out. It seems to me that nosing is primarily an aesthetic choice.
@@drwagner14 I think it also helps protect the vertical parts of the stairs (the vertical aligned plank right under that horizontally aligned "nosing" plank) better against accelerated wear through rainfall, if only a little bit? Personally I'd make all steps 15 inches and only 5 inches tall. Yah it takes more space but DANG it feels a lot *nicer* and more "luxurious". Especially when the owner reaches older age and climbing stairs actually becomes more akin to a "sport" than just "merely moving around". For inside a small house? Probably not, space is too much at a premium. But for something outdoors? Wider stairs, (both along path of travel, and width from left too right), and less high stairs, DEFINITELY enhance the courtyard ***a lot***. Instead of two COMPLETELY separate areas (the higher deck, and the lower rest of the yard), you get a smoother, wider progression which kind of joins them up a little. IF you make them really extra wide (like, using 6 feet long planks instead of 3 or 4 feet wide) and with largish plants and flower boxes along both sides, plus some "tiny waterfalls over stones" irrigation, it simply looks and feels marvelous. Bonus for putting the stairs in an angled part of the deck, with about a 30 widening angle in the railings, so that, as you are going down the stairs, it all feels like the stairs kind of open up to the entire yard instead of being a mere access path. Anyway if you have only a tiny courtyard then it doesn't even make sense to build a deck in the first place as that REALLY "closes up" the yard. Better to just have a smallish top rectangular landing then straight stairs towards the larger side of the yard (and not towards the middle of the yard). Sometimes just a LITTLE bit of intelligent planning will give you TONS of long term value to your yard and house. Just make sure you can cut your planks at 30 and 45 degrees angles and make a plan and not be total crap at maths, and you're set. As for the cost, a deck with a couple angles in it won't really need "more" wood, total surface area is the most determinant cost factor here. Also, a lot more fun to make a NICE LOOKING original deck, than yet another stupid rectangular box exactly like everybody else in the neighbourhood did. A nosing looks nicer, but it does not have to be big. On extra-deep stairs, 1 inch is more than enough. On those small 9 inches deep stairs, half a inch *tops*. I have big feet (size 11) and really hate constantly hitting my toes on "stairs nosings" when climbing those thin steep stairs. The less wide the stairs, the smaller the nosing *needs* to be. Build Code is often 11 inches deep though, so "steep" stairs have to be checked for code first. Better to check all possible details and code on websites like yours, not wait until at city hall renovation permits office, and then open one's big stupid mouth to reveal way too much stuff about what you intend to renovate and how lol. Because that's how you could get into trouble with "infinite (and sometimes even quite contradictory) town regulations", and maybe even be blocked for YEARS before being "allowed" to do your work. With fees too. Blergh. And also, even with super deep stairs, 1 inch nosing is more than enough. Otherwise they become a "feet tripping" risk.
measuring for steps is either finish to finish or rough to rough and deducting the thickness of the tread from the bottom of the stringer. What seems to confuse people is measuring the initial height and distance and knowing when and where to deduct for tread or riser thicknesses. Bottom step mistakes are less harmful than top step errors but neither should occur if you cut your stringers properly and deduct the correct measurement from the bottom stringer. How in all my years in school did rafter and stringer math examples never come up but trajectory of a rocket toward a moon did dozens of times. I've seen more screwed up stairs in my life than anything else. So perhaps math teachers would be advised to teach measuring and fitting stairs in various circumstances to assure a better informed carpentry pool. Also landing placement dividing stairs seems to be s struggle for builders too.
I am redoing my stairs from carpet to stained pine treads. Would it be a good idea to leave the current treads and risers on and add the new treads and risers on top of those or should I remove the old treads and risers before installing the new ones?
Here's a link to the stair remodeling section of our website for more videos about your project. Let me know if you can't find what you need. www.homebuildingandrepairs.com/remodeling/stairs/index.html ruclips.net/video/421ueFeK_KA/видео.html
Doing the math before you cut is kinda like -- important. Measure the rise, divide by between approx 6.5 and 7.25 inches -- until all steps are the same number (to assure even step height with step board installed) determine the angle 35 to 55 degrees, draw it out on paper first. If you don't grasp this basic concept, keep playing with it on paper until you do. Once you understand this, all other stairs are the exact same idea. Never be in a big hurry. Take your time and think it thru. Everyone sees the final result. Draw lines on paper first. Determine before hand the lumber (or material) sizes you'll be using. Worthy of a repeat: Take your time and think it thru. "This is the step that many builders miss".
I built stairs straight and curved for 20 years every set is different in someway like fingerprints. But basic codes are all the same. Basic addition and reduction is part of overall planning. Every set of stairs is a product of calculation. Stairs are like chess you don't just get lucky. Measure calculate add divide subtract and succeed
Agree!! Totally!! Thank you!!! I'm a drafter and am asked alot to create basic layouts to send to stair companies. They come out and do all their own calculations anyway but the architect has the final say on design
40 plus yrs custom stair builder and the #1 Problem i see if framer builds carcus is they never consider finish tread or flooring material thickness. Not into fixing budget buys mistakes, rise must be consistent floor to floor. Now they do allow a variance on first and last riser as homeowners sometimes change floor material
Yes. You have no idea of the rise until you know the total rise, the customer, the materials, the situation....saying you always make them x is nonsense.
The stairs going down to our basement are awful. They use nosings except for the top which is hardwood and could of had a nosing but doesn't. The problem is the stair width is 9.5 inches including the nosing. Going up I often catch the toe of my shoe on a nosing, trip, and swear.
Without nosing they look like crap and allow more water infiltration into the riser. Also wrapping the sides of the deck to cover the ends of the boards just traps water and rots the ends of the boards faster as no where for the water to escape. Hacks are abundant in the building trades.
is there a "perfect"ratio between hight and width of a stair? A stair with a smal width can be steep, while a stair with large width isn't steep but using on step at a time, you get and awkard kind of walk, having to make steps larger then is comfortable.
By the code in my area, no. If you’re stuck, move the 10 1/2 step forwards so the nosing is equal with the 11”. Yes, it will leave a 1/2” gap at the rear of the step, but your foot is never there, and your eye doesn’t see the gap when you walk down the stairs.
Stairs should have nosing Period They are they to facilitate usage Leaving them off because it's a tiny bit harder to accommodate in certain situations is indefensible
The majority of the people who may be building decks are in areas of the country that don't have strict code requirements (if any) for outdoor living additions. A deck is among the easiest things to design and build at a residential work site.
no standard dimension for steps riser? I was vacationing in another country, the steps riser there was much shallower than USA , making it very hard walking up and tiring
look up deadly falls traversing stairs in European countries, the numbers are very high as many buildings have very steep stairs with large rises and THAT is a big fall hazzard going down. Just like building fire sprinkler systems being rare in Europe it's another strange code issue.
People always would need me to build smaller steps for their little children. The same about elderly that I've worked for. But never had any complaints about it.
Can this be anchored to a concrete slab, I had something like this in my head but want to enclose the deck area and make a storage area underneath this.
Can this what...there is no picture or description. So who knows what the hell you're talking about. Ah.... just messing with you. :) Personally I anchored an anchor.
You would live to see the stairs in my sister's home. Built in the 1700s. I do not think any two steps are the same size or shape. Some are only a few inches deep.
Just finished my stringers and about to start the decking BUT I realized my treads are too long... I won't have a nosing. Is that an issue? No nosing allowed?
My favorite tread/riser combo is 14" tread, and close as possible to 7 1/2" , in addition to having a landing halfway up. Going up and down seem almost effortless in comparison.
That's a lot of run, considering the rise. The basic rule is that the rise plus the run should add to about 18". So 7" rise and 11" run is considered standard for a typical stairway. Conversely, a ladder might have a 3" tread but a 15" rise. But in your case, the run is very large, and it might be appropriate to consider one full stride on each tread and then a standard step. In other words, one foot is always doing the step up. Following the 18" rule is uncomfortable and cumbersome for very short risers.
In the Netherlands we use a stair formula: 2 x UP + 1 x FW = 570 to 630 mm or in inches (please help me my God) : 2 x UP + 1 x FW = 22 to 25 inch So with a FW = 11 inch we get 2x UP = 22 - 11 = 11 so UP = 5½ to 7 inch not even close to 10 inch.
Easier fix for the first problem with the deck top having a 1 inc over hang assuming it’s 5/4 board it it with a trim router don’t even have to pop the boards off and weaken the wood by weaking the screw hole if you aren’t using a predetermined fastener sysem
I have 14 steps up to my upper floor, all much the same riser about 9" in height, except step 13, 2nd from the top, which is 1.5" to 2" higher. This is lousy for a bad knee.
So write up a code change proposal with your desires and a reason statement - submit it to the International Code Council for review at their next public hearings for the International Residential Code; the basis for 99% of all local codes in the US. As one who sat on that committee for 15 years, I will tell you that without solid data to support your proposal it will be denied.
nosing is rarely the issue. Most of the time it is a problem with unequal rises either at the top or bottom step.
Few years back I was going to build small wooden stair step to neighbors porch and was checking out the pre - cut stair risers at the stores. They were all of odd size and it would be too hard to use one and get even spaced steps so I just did it my own way without the conventional
' riser ' and besides being cheaper it was easier to get totally equal steps.
@@michaelszczys8316 I never understood those pre-cut stringers, they must be custom cut for your specific rise and run.
Correct. Or the top stair run is shorter than the rest, I always make my top stair run bigger kinda like a landing, never had any complaints.
Grading is king and will kill a deck if the patio or interlock at grade can't be adjusted. The other challenge is landings people forget the finished height of the landing at the lowest step on the landing, but will get the top ones right.
Yeah, but the issue in this video is fixable.
As a ICC building inspector I approve the video. We have many DYI projects in my state and this will certainly save them time and money. We charge $150 for Rejected Inspections in our City.
I'm surprised to hear that a city would allow DIY construction.
No big construction company has interactions with the board yet?
Thank you! The guys I hired to build my deck thirty(!) years ago walked off the job without doing the steps......so I 'knocked them out' one weekend. They've worked AND lasted, but with not a single rise or run equal to another, now I know why everybody's always tripped walking up or down them!
You're welcome and it's never to late to learn:)
You made me laugh. Thanks for you honest comment!
wtf? they make brass nuts that screw onto your framing square and make the rise and run exactly right. Go tear those stairs down lol.
Well, at least you “knocked them out.”😆
I've always just done the math.
My reading of the "code" is that the variation in elevation - tread to tread - cannot exceed 3/8". I don't know if that also applies to the depth of the tread. However, the rationale for stairs is that by the time that a user has made the second step, the mind has calculated the rise and run and expects that ratio to continue. So, if the measurements change, the mind can become confused and the user may trip.
Framers, stair builders use same calcs... as a drafter I have to use the area I'm given, usually in a remodel and working with the architect. But I love the designs I've seen. Some are elegant. Others are utilitarian. While others are clean architectural based. Then there's the hide away stairs or fold aways in smaller homes. Wow!!
3/8 " is the riser difference allowed
I've always wondered if there is really a need to look how human beings have gotten larger, including the feet as it pertains to stairs, that certain sizings throughout the built environment should be reviewed periodically from a human engineering standpoint. A 6 foot ceiling height certainly would not be allowed today, but four hundred years ago it was common, just as an example. So many stair cases just seem small to my size 12 feet. I find myself walking down undersized depth treads with my feet set sideways just to get a steady footing. Size twelve is not really a big foot anymore.
@@mikegrant8490 , agreed, my inspector is 6'4" , I think their thought process is the ball of the foot would be on the tread only as you push up to step on the next step , (not really stopping to stand on the tread , if You have the distance, I perfer to use lower rise and a 15" - 20" tread, which in turns change it to more tread and code is 3 treads or 4 riser (same) requires a handrail , I have made serval for elderly in their garage that are attach, just make sure You have the distance , if you look at a 2 tread 3rise 10 tread that only 20" off the wall but if Your using a wider tread like 15" it would 30" for 2 treads and 40" if it 20" tread , then go to a 4" rise of and it become 45" off the wall or 60" (5ft) on a 20" tread , it may be easier to build a 3ft landing and turn the stairs sideways. Guess I got a little of track LOL , must people on use 1/2 the tread when going up or down stairs
Correct in the total straight run , 3/8 if 2 steps or 15 steps
I'm no carpenter, not a joke. However, I have a friend who is and he builds stairs for himself with 5" risers. His preference for this dimension is due to having to wear braces on his legs due to a degenerative bone disease. I have neuropathy and have had knee surgery. At 74, I don't anticipate any improvement. Once I walked up his stairs it took all strain off my knees and descending the stairs with my numbness was made easier. I realize that this extends the staircase; but where feasible it is a great help to those with mobility issues. Also, on site stairs, dock stairs and the like it makes carrying stuff up and down easier and I feel its safer.
One of the terms used for this type of stair is "easy riser." For some people, elderly in particular, they make the difference between being able to continue living in their home and not.
@@howardhughes8771 easy stair..
On the subject of trip hazards: A few years ago, we moved into a rental home with a completely whacked set of (only TWO!) steps from the ground to the top of the deck. The first step from the ground had a 4X4 partially embedded in the ground holding up the risers from the dirt. the rise was about 9 inches from the ground to the first step. the next step was about 6 or 7 inches (per manufacturing guidelines), and the rise to the deck from there was at least 8 inches. VERY DISCONCERTING as you walk up the steps. I replaced the two-riser assembly with a three-riser assembly and firmly attached the riser assembly to the deck at the same RISE as the steps had, and ensured the bottom step started from the same point in space as the rises each ascended. In other words: this little two-step assembly had THREE different rises from ground to deck-- and, trust me, this was far and away more trip-worthy than any variation in tread width!
In my short time doing decks, the little box steps we would sometimes have to make down to the ground ALWAYS gave us the most trouble for finding that sweet spot. Whether it was unlevel ground sloping parallel to the deck or just an inconvenient height those little stair sets are usually the most dangerous.
Talk about jacking up your muscle memory
@@Industrialitis Easiest solution I've found is to provide a small 3'x3' or 4'x'4' concrete or compacted gravel landing at the base to make the steps consistent. No one usually has a problem with whatever step is created between the landing and the grade of the yard.
A lot of diyers use those precut stringers which only work out if you start out with them before you build your deck . If you don’t consider the rise height of those stringers before you build then they won’t work properly .
Stair nosing are actually a safety item when descending stairs as they prevent heel clip on the riser. If you’re going to be a carpenter be a carpenter put a nosing on it.
Nosings are also a health and dafety item for visually impaired persons when going up a stair. One would run their foot up the face of the riser and would know they have reached the top of the step when their foot strikes the nosing.
There is never a "nosing" on concrete steps !!.........hmmm .
@@helbitkelbit1790 Never?
@@michaelachambers7870 (Holy Mackerel).......Never .
@@michaelachambers7870
If they are 100% concrete, you never put a "nosing" on any of the steps. Concrete is extremely strong in compression but very brittle in stress. A nose will quickly start to break away. Even a sharp 90 degree edge will quickly erode and start breaking off which is why concrete edges are always suppose to be rounded. I have seen concrete steps that were designed using a non-concrete material on the landing that stuck out to form the nose. Never found out what it was and was not around long enough to see how well it worked.
I like bumping it up one more riser making the top tread flush with the top of the deck. It finishes really nice.
Good tip!
And it makes it much more sturdy to fasten up ...hate seeinh those plywood hangers or plumbing straps..🤓
I hate seeing that. Messes up railing
If you have room for the extra total run length of the stairs. Using the top platform as the top tread shortens the total stair run.
Thank you for sharing.👍🏼
Following code is basic instruction in apprentice training starting with forms and foundations. Our MLP's (manipulative lesson plan) says it on every page. By the time you get to framing, it is burned in your brain simply because code will vary and even drawings can illustrate something that won't pass where you are. I picked up as good of workers habits as I could in my union JATC training. I enjoyed this topic you posted 👍🏼
Glad it was helpful and thanks for a little more information!
Thanks for the video. I dont like the combination of a nosing with verticals behind the treads. Wearers of sandals are more likely to catch the nosing with the sandal end, especially looser types. No back is more common in Australia, especially where exposed to weather.
recently saw an episode of This Old House where they rebuilt a staircase for someone with an artificial leg. The tread nose is something older people catch their foot on, so they slanted the riser to gain tread width but eliminated the nose. The whole idea here was to allow reusing the railings and balusters so there was minimal change to the look of the older home.
Yeah, I was thinking about the risk of hooking my size 13 boot on that overhang...
@@ianhelyar9553 ... if you have been wearing a size 13 for many years then you are likely well-adjusted to this sort of thing.
I built an exterior deck stair for an elderly couple who wanted 13" wide threads with no nosing and 5" rise.
It was very uncomfortable for me to use it, but watching them use it made some sense. They would step up 1 step at a time, each step acting as a mini landing.
A review of the building code a couple of years ago, on the three sets of stairs on my neighbor's deck he was building, revealed the expression of keeping any stair system "consistent" throughout. The trip hazard occurs when there is an inconsistency and the brain needs it to be consistent to prevent a destabilizing effect, either catching a toe, the heel sliding off or a stumbling up or down from a variance in the height. The nosing in this video is well pointed out as an inconsistency. The 7-11 rule shows that it is the safest overall, based on the brain science and the 18 inch overal requirement. All three of his sets violated the consistency principle, unfortunately.
A bit of useless trivia from a guy in construction design in the UK here: Many medieval castles used to have one bastard step on a staircase. The idea was those that were resident at the castle would gain muscle memory of the odd step and could run up and down without issue. An invading force charging up the steps would be unaware and be likely to fall, giving the advantage to the residents in an emergency. This would probably create quite the pileup of armour-clad soldiers at the bottom of a narrow spiral staircase.
@@IanDarley That's not useless trivia! That's the psychology of battle and siege. When you realize that they engineered it like this, it's genius! Thanks for your perspective.
@@IanDarley ( Thinking Monty Python sketch comedy! Armour-clad pile ups! 🤣)
Apartment I live in they rebuilt our porch and steps ( concrete ) and the top step is just a tiny bit taller. I hit it often and it makes me trip going up.
It doesn't take much.
@@michaelszczys8316 I redid my neighbor's front porch a couple of years ago and took down the very top brick step to the landing to the height of the other steps and leveled it to the landing allowing for drainage. The best part of it is the satisfaction of knowing that they no longer have a trip hazard and they no longer have a water ponding issue, especially in the freezing weather. For years, I tripped up on their porch and noticed that landing was over an inch deeper, a more potential trip hazard going down, wrong both ways ... until I told them I felt compelled to fix it. Today, they're happy. The overall height of all the treads is within 1/8 of an inch and all it took was taking a diamond blade and shaping the top to create a 1/8 inch drain slope over the width of the top bricks back to the existing landing's level. I also tuck pointed all the bricks, made other repairs and repainted the metal railings after re-anchoring them. Your apartment steps could be done in a similar manner by an experienced mason based on what you've stated. It's a safety issue, especially since the new concrete steps offer a dangerous departure from what was previously there. Demand that the landlord fix it properly. Contact your local building authorities and force a resolution, noting that it maybe appears to be a code violation issue.
We have a stairway with no nosing. It’s ugly and covered with carpet. I would love a video describing how to install good quality wooden treads, back walls AND nosing, without rebuilding the entire stairway. I agree completely; each step MUST be the same. Add new decking on top of the first step and you have now made a deeper step. This is a project I have longed to do. A good video on what NOT to do would be helpful.
I thought I covered what not to do, is there something I missed.
Wow, your stair is in dire straits.
I have found that six inch riser makes much easier for all to transverse. A one inch lip or overhang on the tread also makes an easier climb. Yes, this is good advice that only the experienced builder would know.......thanks.
Agree the lower the rise the easier the climb , I built my steps with a 4" rise with a the tread being 12 1/4 from nosing to nosing wise a 2x6 and a 2x8 ( 4" is the min, in My area ) You literally just walk
@@adamtippett1826 This would be good for old folk, if you have the length.
You're welcome.
I have found that most interior stairs are using a seven inch rise with accompanying handrails.
@@GailUrge-vq6qn lol, usually it is a division of total rise and going any where between 6 3/8 and 7 1/2..
Stairs without nosing are ok for barns. All nosings from top to bottom should line up. Your foot can feel a 1/4 " difference in rise.
Actually less than that. Something like a light eighth of an inch difference between step rise can trip you up.
All of this says to me, "The human body is a marvel." A regular person like me, not trained in the trades, wouldn't think such a small difference would matter. It's fascinating to discover that it does.
@@davidguenther8170 I have always read 1/4 inch.
@@chrismalchoff7552 Over the last 40 years, I've built countless numbers of stairs. A 1/4" inch difference is the maximum amount allowed by code, at least where I was working. On a set of stairs, if all treads are level, but one, that one slightly unlevel tread can trip you up, even if it's only out of level by a half degree. I don't know how to explain it other than as you start up the stairs, your body gets in a rhythm and any deviance can throw it off
Exactly. In Canada, the code is no step can be anymore than 5mm (3/16) different from the next step (up or down). That's the same rule for both the rise AND the run.
A standard stair machine at a gym is usually 8" rise 10" run, and those steps feel steep but not excessively short, plus you're not going down them in a forwards direction, though sometimes I could do with a bit more toe room.
I can see how 7" by 11" or 6.5" by 12" feels less effort, although take more space. I've been in a house with 7" by about 9" stairs and it felt slightly Teletubby-ish to walk up them, although there was some underhang for more foot room when climbing up the stairs but not so helpful down them. On the winder stair portions I definitely preferred a longer run. It made the glutes work slightly more and the quads slightly less, so the motion felt more natural with the shin more vertical on the next step, instead of knee forward on the shorter run steps. Often space constraints mandate a shorter than optimal run, and or a longer than optimal rise though.
I have done a lot of interior and exterior stairs, and came to the conclusion that around 7-1/2' plus or minus and 1/8, is the most comfortable to me. But everybody is different.
On my deck (16’x48’) I have 2 sets of stairs. One is in the middle and one on the corner. The deck is 18” off the ground. The middle stair has 2 steps, 9” rise. The corner stairs has 3 steps, 6” rise. I built this in 2004. Code in our area is a maximum of 7 3/4” rise. The three step staircase has a railing, the 2 step does not. When I built this Twenty years ago that was no problem, Today I’m 76 years old and now I can’t use the middle stairs, but have no problem with the corner stairs, yes the railing helps, but so does the stair height. Now I understand the code……Thanks…Jim
PS…..on my laundry list is a new 3 step stair case in the middle with railing.
Thanks for the video! You say, "Most of the time the stairs will have a nosing and the deck won't." Why won't the deck have a nosing? Most decks should have a nosing or decking overhang. It shouldn't be flush --especially if you are using wood for the decking. You are correct that the steps should all be as similar as possible. It would be a big failure for the building inspector to miss that one step is 10" and the rest are 11" in run, nosing to nosing. But you are right, most inspectors probably wouldn't get close enough to the deck stairs to notice, let alone measure.
If the deck builder knows about nosing's, (the reason I made the video) then you will have a nosing if the stairs do, if not then no nosing and you're welcome.
I see. Yes! Good day! @@stairbuilding
As a taller guy I like the 11-7 in a set of steps compared to the 12-6. I don't like the 5" and 4" risers in parks / public areas, but I understand they are easier to traverse for the elderly.
As a taller guy as well, i prefer 12/6 steps. More for descending steps. I find that only about half my foot lands on the tread when going down steps, unless i skew my feet at an angle. Not particularly comfortable or safe. But it’s impossible to make one staircase that’s good for a 5’8”, 80 year old and a 6’3”, 40 year old.
Think of children and smaller people, too. You design stairs for all.
Yes and you may be old one day I say may...
Safety first
As one fellow already said, the most serious problem is uneven rises. Where I live, a stair must have no more than one eigth of an inch difference in rises (including landings and floor covering) or fail inspection. Your nose issue is easy to fix. Also like someone else already said, fix it! Better yet, read the Building Code stair requirements before building your stairs. It really is easy to understand and is online. Also, there are strict requirements for "grabable" railing requirements and heights and when needed on both sides and when not. Read the bldg code.
when "to stair is human" first begins, then comes "to err is human"....
Here’s the herring bone, the 11” is because we use 5/4” or 2”x 6” lumber, the most accepted way to build is cut stringer 10” to get 1” nosing or 1 3/4 “ for 3/4” riser, which the stair tread is 11” to the riser not the front of above stair, in your example you’d have to rip 1” off of a 2x6?
I hate stairs without toe relief (nosing) or a 15 degree raked if concrete
In medieval fortress, height of each step is varied, deliberately, to make enemy prone to slip and fall.
Important to make the height of each step the same.
I prefer not to use nosing. Instead, on the vertical board, isn't installed exactly vertical.
The bottom part is slightly inward, making it easy for the toe.
Off course it's harder to built.
90 degree hazard. Eliminate any 90 degree because it's sharp.
Any 90 degree need to be rounded, but the radial need to be as small as possible.
If the height of each step was the same, then they wouldn't be steps. (height above ground that is) ha ha.
Oh yeah bring back memories when I started back in the early 80s. Got to pay attention n double check all measurements. You are so correct. Thanks bruh
Right on
brass nuts on your framing square.
You've been doing this since the 80s, but say "bruh" like you're 14...
Worked on countless decks… I’ve never seen one or built one without overhanging boards on the actual deck and I’ve always included a nosing on stairs.
You never seen a deck with PT balusters attached to fascia board for railing or composite decks with fascia covering cut sides of deck boards? Over half the decks I see dont have overhang even on new decks. I always picture box my decks though
@@guyod1 yeah I guess I have seen that… I don’t tend to build that way though. Never really looks awesome.
The nosing looks nicer for the finished job but,over time that nosing or over hang can chip or just break off.I build them flush because of this reason.I live in Michigan so our weather can be awful as far as fast changes in climate.Snow,rain,ice,heat.
I once put together a solid Teak staircase. The skirt board was to be cut with a 45* angle - to meet the riser in a miter. The boss had to tell me the skirt board cost $1600 (thanks boss). He knew it wasn't easy and told me he bought two boards, just in case. I got it right the first time, 13 perfect miters under an oil finish. Could be the best thing I ever made in 34 years of carpentry. (the whole house, two floors, was in solid Teak (!) 19 million dollar property in Key West, Florida.) Due to a moratorium on Teak, the owner bought a house in Thailand, had it deconstructed and shipped to Miami where it was re-milled.
Sounds incredible. So people have to much money. I want that problem 😆. I have a friend that has amazing custome tree sized carvings from Thailand area. Gorgeous wood.
@@corysturgis6660 Talk about big money! - I talked to her personal carpenter, whom she would fly to her properties in Paris and NYC and who knows where, he told me she paid $100k per year for private parking at her apartment facing Central Park. At the Key West property the previous owners, the Johnsons (of Johnson & Johnson) had bought the back yards of everyone on the block. From the street the house looked like a typical Keys bungalow, but in reality the property was huge, with big swimming pool, big 'pool house' - all Teak, guest house and servant's quarters!
The one who trips in the 1st and third example may not be the inspector but the one who left his flashlight in the car. Your foot automatically measures tread and riser and effort should be taken not to vary. I gave a 👍.
Occasionally, a client will ask that there be no overhang. I usually walk away from those jobs. The 1" nosing is so "standard". I often note, that on carpeted stairs, the lack of nosing results in the upper portion of the carpeted riser is worn and stained. I think that's because we expect the nosing and have planted our feet too close to the riser. Perhaps someone has a different view of that problem.
I like the overhang, but you can use an under cut or leave it alone if client or designer and codes allow.
Hello I'm a carpenter and have actually built stairs correctly.
Never ever ever let a Mason build a wooden staircase. It WILL be wonky.
You've been warned. Don't do it. 😉
Mike. Where. Do. U. Live. !!!!! Sir.
@@armandoruiz8795 I live in a small town called wippinigguhsass. It's in ILLINOIZ
@@mikeries8549 lmao
...and never let a framer build your stringers!
I am a mason....built a huge concrete staircase.....covered with tile that looks like wood....
so........suck it nailbiter..
Another problem that messes up a lot of people, including some "professionals", is confusion between the RUN and the TREAD. The examples shown here all have an 11 inch run, which its the measurement from rise to riser. That number stays the same, even with the 1 inch nosing. The nosing examples here gives you a 12 inch tread, but the run is still only 11 inches. The TOP step has no nosing above it (on the deck), but the RUN of it is STILL 11 inches like the rest, even though the entire 12 inch tread is now exposed. Cutting the back off the stringers like some suggest would now give that top step an 11 inch tread, but only a 10 inch run. That's an illegal situation in many places, where code says the run cannot vary any more than 5 mm (3/16 inch) between any 2 adjacent steps. The only real solution, like this video shows, is to make sure the nosings are consistent all the way up, including on the landing/deck surface, whether 1 inch each, less, or none at all.
I was a carpenter for 35+ years, and I can't remember the last time a building inspector even looked at treads and risers (and, I can tell you, I've seen some that were really whacked out of shape!)
Most of the time the inspector was focused on handrail height and location.
Interesting and thanks for sharing.
If the risers are higher or lower than one another by a 1/4 inch, you have a trip hazard.
For a short length of stairs (4 ft-ish), I took out a failing set of steps and put in landscape steps. These are stacked railroad ties (6 x 8). A little work with a chain saw and planer (to make the surface look nice) and a coil of Simpson strapping to tie them together...problem solved forever.
If you use a flush trim router bit, you can wack of the nosing in the first example without having to take the board off.
That's the run. The principle of repeatability also applies to the rise. Stringer mounting and bottom finishing need to accommodate any differences in thicknesses between the step material and the flooring material on both the upper and lower landings.
Isn't a nosing (or the equivalent to a nosing) *required* by code ?
Does a longer last stair also produce a tripping hazard? If we keep the deck without nosing
thanks for making this easy to follow.
You're very welcome!
As a scrub lord who has no knowledge of construction what-so-ever, what is the benefit of nosing? Does it have a purpose, or is it just for aesthetic purposes?
I always liked to have the stringer go all the way to deck level. It adds an extra tread if there are not space limita😢tions on the run. Then the nosing or no nosing is not an issue to keep treads the same. Also the connection to the rim joist is stronger .
I like it to.
Every 90 degree tread edge should be rounded off to prevent splitting … it’s how most people walk , that is on the edge especially when descending the stairs … that’s the difference between builder grade and craftsmanship grade !!! … and don’t forget to “crown” each tread to keep it from “cupping” !!!
Sorry, I have to ask as I am new. What do u mean by crowning?
@@celticmulato2609 … crowning for treads means you look at the end of the board and if the growth rings appear to be shaped like a bowl that will mean it’s going to continue to cup like a bowl … hard to walk on …flip it over so the wood grain ( growth rings are like an upside-down bowl or “crown “ … crowning a joist or rafter , you have to eye it down the length and place that piece with the bow or “crown “ on the up side …hope that clears “crowning “ up !
Another mistake that may not pass inspection, is the first step is the same height as the deck. This throws off you handrail to step height.
The building code here in Alabama used to be 2 risers plus 1 tread should equal between 23 and 25”. Not more than a 1/4” variation tread to tread and not more than 1/2 in overall. But it has changed in the more recent code changes.
Thanks for sharing.
Alabama ,ya got 2 heads n 3 feet
We would make sure there is a nosing on each step and the deck edges. The one thing I would point out in this case, is that is the stringer run are 11” and if you need a 1” nosing, the dimensional lumber needed will have to be a combination of standard and custom cut boards. If a treated board gets ripped down to suit the size needed, I’d suggest routering the cut edge and treating it to prevent rot and decay. Our best practice is to keep the stringer length at 10” with a 1” nose to use 2 sections of 2 X 6 treated boards. Thanks for the video, most people don’t understand these concepts and this is explained very well.
I have noticed around here the rise doesn't seem to be that important I have fallen a couple of times in the dark because the bottom step on the stairs in front of my house has a very short rise ( 4") in relation to the other steps. Two of the steps are 8 " and the top step is 7.5" . I noticed on one of the newer commercial buildings that the steps are not uniform and one has too much rise. I live in Tennessee. There were no building inspections for years.
The building code provides for a range of tread and riser dimensions but also provides a maximum variation from one tread or riser to the next. I don't recall what those dimensions are off the top of my head.
Another great video! In my case on my upcoming porch stair build, the porch has a narrow facia protruding out 1-3/4" from the deck which long story short, will not look good if I remove it. I want my tread nosing to be 3/4" so would the best way to resolve this be to add an inch wide ledger below the facia to reduce the protruding facia down to 3/4"? My new total run would be reduced by an inch as well correct? Sorry if this is obvious, first time stair builder here!
What is the advantage of stair nosing over no nosing?
ALL stair steps and door steps should be REQUIRED to be at least 16 inches and without any nosing. My shoes are over 13 inches long, and, these days, many men have even longer feet. My wife and I were thinking of renting an apartment once, but we decided against it, because it had 8 inch stairs. Not only is that very stressful the feet of a tall person, but it also creates a very steep and dangerous staircase. Nosings are just fluff that reduce the effective depth of the step. They just create an unnecessary trip hazard for longfooted people who are already struggling to find space for their feet on short steps. If there are going to be building codes that we have to live with, they should be rewritten to serve ALL the people.
Hi, thanks for that information. I have a question on the deck stairs. Is it ok to use a 2x12 for the step or use the 2x6. Thank you
Yes, absolutely
Don't forget to talk about the rise of the stairs/steps !!!
The simple rules to the design a safe straight staircase are:-
1. The profile of every step must be identical.
2. The rake of the stair must not exceed 42 degrees.
3. Width of tread + twice the height of riser = between 22 & 28 inches. The perfect ratio is 12" tread with 6" riser.
Here in UK, nosings are not an issue. All domestic stairs must have 16mm (5/8") nosings over all risers.
Winders? Ah! They are another set of rules all together.
Can you take a 7.5 riser on a stringer that is already cut and turn it to 8 inches or is it best to start with a brand new 2x12
Most of the time it won't work, but it is possible.
Excellent video, btw. Informative and to the point.
Much appreciated!
I was fortunate enough to work along side some old tract/production framers here in So California in the early 80’s Piece work roof and stair cutting crews, nothing makes a guy learn faster when it comes out your own pocket…most building officials frown on any deviation nearing an 1/8 of an inch,
A 1980's piece worker sounds old, but I was one also and you do learn fast.
My dad used to stack roofs back in the 80s to that's where he learned most of his construction before he joined the union most peace workers know how to work I'm here from Southern California to
We had a new deck built a month ago. I didn’t think about any codes or measurements until I fell going down. Our measurements are fine. What the problem seems to be is they are too steep. The guys are coming tomorrow to check it. IM trying to understand how the stairway should go. There are 15 stairs with the one inch nose. Unfortunately no nose on the deck. How would you calculate the number of stairs to have.
Thank you for any help.
Barbara S
I have videos for calculating riser heights at our website.
The instep/rising ratio deserves some attention as well?
What is the total measurement of the step plus the riser? I believe there is a Code addressing that
What's the point of the nosing on stairs? It always feels like a problem when I walk up or down stairs that have them
I know what you're talking about, but nosing's usually provide a wider step for larger feet.
@@stairbuilding Only if you're going up. The stair width is effectively the same with nosing, as your video points out. It seems to me that nosing is primarily an aesthetic choice.
@@drwagner14 I think it also helps protect the vertical parts of the stairs (the vertical aligned plank right under that horizontally aligned "nosing" plank) better against accelerated wear through rainfall, if only a little bit?
Personally I'd make all steps 15 inches and only 5 inches tall. Yah it takes more space but DANG it feels a lot *nicer* and more "luxurious". Especially when the owner reaches older age and climbing stairs actually becomes more akin to a "sport" than just "merely moving around".
For inside a small house? Probably not, space is too much at a premium. But for something outdoors? Wider stairs, (both along path of travel, and width from left too right), and less high stairs, DEFINITELY enhance the courtyard ***a lot***. Instead of two COMPLETELY separate areas (the higher deck, and the lower rest of the yard), you get a smoother, wider progression which kind of joins them up a little. IF you make them really extra wide (like, using 6 feet long planks instead of 3 or 4 feet wide) and with largish plants and flower boxes along both sides, plus some "tiny waterfalls over stones" irrigation, it simply looks and feels marvelous. Bonus for putting the stairs in an angled part of the deck, with about a 30 widening angle in the railings, so that, as you are going down the stairs, it all feels like the stairs kind of open up to the entire yard instead of being a mere access path.
Anyway if you have only a tiny courtyard then it doesn't even make sense to build a deck in the first place as that REALLY "closes up" the yard. Better to just have a smallish top rectangular landing then straight stairs towards the larger side of the yard (and not towards the middle of the yard).
Sometimes just a LITTLE bit of intelligent planning will give you TONS of long term value to your yard and house. Just make sure you can cut your planks at 30 and 45 degrees angles and make a plan and not be total crap at maths, and you're set. As for the cost, a deck with a couple angles in it won't really need "more" wood, total surface area is the most determinant cost factor here. Also, a lot more fun to make a NICE LOOKING original deck, than yet another stupid rectangular box exactly like everybody else in the neighbourhood did.
A nosing looks nicer, but it does not have to be big. On extra-deep stairs, 1 inch is more than enough. On those small 9 inches deep stairs, half a inch *tops*. I have big feet (size 11) and really hate constantly hitting my toes on "stairs nosings" when climbing those thin steep stairs. The less wide the stairs, the smaller the nosing *needs* to be.
Build Code is often 11 inches deep though, so "steep" stairs have to be checked for code first. Better to check all possible details and code on websites like yours, not wait until at city hall renovation permits office, and then open one's big stupid mouth to reveal way too much stuff about what you intend to renovate and how lol. Because that's how you could get into trouble with "infinite (and sometimes even quite contradictory) town regulations", and maybe even be blocked for YEARS before being "allowed" to do your work. With fees too. Blergh.
And also, even with super deep stairs, 1 inch nosing is more than enough. Otherwise they become a "feet tripping" risk.
@@stairbuilding 2 2x6s is 11 inches whether there is overhang or not
A nosing allows for a shorter going without compromising on the tread depth.
measuring for steps is either finish to finish or rough to rough and deducting the thickness of the tread from the bottom of the stringer. What seems to confuse people is measuring the initial height and distance and knowing when and where to deduct for tread or riser thicknesses. Bottom step mistakes are less harmful than top step errors but neither should occur if you cut your stringers properly and deduct the correct measurement from the bottom stringer. How in all my years in school did rafter and stringer math examples never come up but trajectory of a rocket toward a moon did dozens of times.
I've seen more screwed up stairs in my life than anything else. So perhaps math teachers would be advised to teach measuring and fitting stairs in various circumstances to assure a better informed carpentry pool. Also landing placement dividing stairs seems to be s struggle for builders too.
I am redoing my stairs from carpet to stained pine treads. Would it be a good idea to leave the current treads and risers on and add the new treads and risers on top of those or should I remove the old treads and risers before installing the new ones?
Here's a link to the stair remodeling section of our website for more videos about your project. Let me know if you can't find what you need.
www.homebuildingandrepairs.com/remodeling/stairs/index.html
ruclips.net/video/421ueFeK_KA/видео.html
Remove imo
Doing the math before you cut is kinda like -- important. Measure the rise, divide by between approx 6.5 and 7.25 inches -- until all steps are the same number (to assure even step height with step board installed) determine the angle 35 to 55 degrees, draw it out on paper first. If you don't grasp this basic concept, keep playing with it on paper until you do. Once you understand this, all other stairs are the exact same idea. Never be in a big hurry. Take your time and think it thru. Everyone sees the final result. Draw lines on paper first. Determine before hand the lumber (or material) sizes you'll be using. Worthy of a repeat: Take your time and think it thru.
"This is the step that many builders miss".
I built stairs straight and curved for 20 years every set is different in someway like fingerprints. But basic codes are all the same. Basic addition and reduction is part of overall planning. Every set of stairs is a product of calculation. Stairs are like chess you don't just get lucky. Measure calculate add divide subtract and succeed
Agree!! Totally!! Thank you!!! I'm a drafter and am asked alot to create basic layouts to send to stair companies. They come out and do all their own calculations anyway but the architect has the final say on design
40 plus yrs custom stair builder and the #1 Problem i see if framer builds carcus is they never consider finish tread or flooring material thickness. Not into fixing budget buys mistakes, rise must be consistent floor to floor. Now they do allow a variance on first and last riser as homeowners sometimes change floor material
Yes. You have no idea of the rise until you know the total rise, the customer, the materials, the situation....saying you always make them x is nonsense.
Yyeess yes
The stairs going down to our basement are awful. They use nosings except for the top which is hardwood and could of had a nosing but doesn't. The problem is the stair width is 9.5 inches including the nosing. Going up I often catch the toe of my shoe on a nosing, trip, and swear.
Without nosing they look like crap and allow more water infiltration into the riser. Also wrapping the sides of the deck to cover the ends of the boards just traps water and rots the ends of the boards faster as no where for the water to escape. Hacks are abundant in the building trades.
So in the last example of all steps have a nosing and top landing does not - is this to code as is?
It would probably need to match the other treads or steps.
building a staircase (walls on both sides) leading up to a loft area.. Can I omit the stringers?
ruclips.net/video/70HU3XI6SXQ/видео.html see if this helps.
was this four examples, or two?
is there a "perfect"ratio between hight and width of a stair?
A stair with a smal width can be steep, while a stair with large width isn't steep but using on step at a time, you get and awkard kind of walk, having to make steps larger then is comfortable.
I don't have a ratio between the width and height.
I like the top step nosing looks better if you can pass it
Kinda surprised you didn't talk about rise at all.
Can u have some steps 10 1/2 inch with no nosing and some with nose at 11 inches??
By the code in my area, no. If you’re stuck, move the 10 1/2 step forwards so the nosing is equal with the 11”. Yes, it will leave a 1/2” gap at the rear of the step, but your foot is never there, and your eye doesn’t see the gap when you walk down the stairs.
@@lornes7526 thanks 😊
Most building codes allow for a maximum variation of 3/8 inches. You have 1/2 inch, so they might not allow it.
@@stairbuilding Thanks.
No. Nosings are required on residential stairs with a tread depth less than 11 inches.
ayo a channel specifically about building stairs? Interesting. Not something I need but interesting nonetheless.
Stairs should have nosing Period They are they to facilitate usage Leaving them off because it's a tiny bit harder to accommodate in certain situations is indefensible
The majority of the people who may be building decks are in areas of the country that don't have strict code requirements (if any) for outdoor living additions. A deck is among the easiest things to design and build at a residential work site.
the 11" treads are about as narrow as I would ever go. It helps that a 5/4" or 2" x 6" are 5.5 inches each.
no standard dimension for steps riser? I was vacationing in another country, the steps riser there was much shallower than USA , making it very hard walking up and tiring
look up deadly falls traversing stairs in European countries, the numbers are very high as many buildings have very steep stairs with large rises and THAT is a big fall hazzard going down.
Just like building fire sprinkler systems being rare in Europe it's another strange code issue.
I’ve tripped on so many nosings!
Our back four steps from our porch to the ground are so narrow I have to walk down them sideways to traverse safely.
People always would need me to build smaller steps for their little children. The same about elderly that I've worked for. But never had any complaints about it.
Can this be anchored to a concrete slab, I had something like this in my head but want to enclose the deck area and make a storage area underneath this.
I would think so.
1/2” anchor bolts.
Can this what...there is no picture or description.
So who knows what the hell you're talking about.
Ah.... just messing with you. :)
Personally I anchored an anchor.
My deck step when it rains water stays in the step sometimes slippery . Why does water still remain in wooden stairs
Usually, the problem isn’t the length of the treads, it’s the height of the risers. Inconsistent riser height. It is a trip hazard.
Nosing is a code requirement.
You would live to see the stairs in my sister's home. Built in the 1700s. I do not think any two steps are the same size or shape. Some are only a few inches deep.
Amazing and I can only imagine.
Just finished my stringers and about to start the decking BUT I realized my treads are too long... I won't have a nosing. Is that an issue? No nosing allowed?
I've built plenty of stairs with out nosing, so go for it.
a little nosing is natural in all stairs. see if you can build out your riser slightly or make spacing between your treads a little bit more.
I added a nosing! Couldn't leave it without one. Check my videos to see my solution.
My favorite tread/riser combo is 14" tread, and close as possible to 7 1/2" , in addition to having a landing halfway up. Going up and down seem almost effortless in comparison.
That won't work for interior step codes.
outside hillside 88 inch rise 261 inch run...how deep should each tread be..thanks
24 “ ish 😎
That's a lot of run, considering the rise. The basic rule is that the rise plus the run should add to about 18". So 7" rise and 11" run is considered standard for a typical stairway. Conversely, a ladder might have a 3" tread but a 15" rise. But in your case, the run is very large, and it might be appropriate to consider one full stride on each tread and then a standard step. In other words, one foot is always doing the step up. Following the 18" rule is uncomfortable and cumbersome for very short risers.
Mike let go of it
What is the purpose of nosing?
Studies have found that that an irregularity in the rise or run of more than 1/4” for any stair can cause people to stumble on the stairs.
Just keep everything consistent.
In the Netherlands we use a stair formula: 2 x UP + 1 x FW = 570 to 630 mm
or in inches (please help me my God) : 2 x UP + 1 x FW = 22 to 25 inch
So with a FW = 11 inch we get 2x UP = 22 - 11 = 11 so UP = 5½ to 7 inch not even close to 10 inch.
I have never finished a set of rough in stairs I didn't have to rebuild / restringer
This is a big problem but I took it step by step.
Always take it step by step:)
Perfect video. 👍
Thank you! 👍
Easier fix for the first problem with the deck top having a 1 inc over hang assuming it’s 5/4 board it it with a trim router don’t even have to pop the boards off and weaken the wood by weaking the screw hole if you aren’t using a predetermined fastener sysem
I have 14 steps up to my upper floor, all much the same riser about 9" in height, except step 13, 2nd from the top, which is 1.5" to 2" higher.
This is lousy for a bad knee.
Is this an older home?
Hi Penelope, yes it is 35 years old, built in mid 80s.
@@jeffbaxter8770... when someone asks about an older home, it's usually pre WWII where code was not consistent. 80s vintage should be code compliant.
@@rupe53 i agree t older a house t more acurate t woodwork
I believe that the code should allow the top step tread to be wider than the rest it is safer if you step down on a wider tread.
I can see where you're coming from.
Its your neck darwin
So write up a code change proposal with your desires and a reason statement - submit it to the International Code Council for review at their next public hearings for the International Residential Code; the basis for 99% of all local codes in the US. As one who sat on that committee for 15 years, I will tell you that without solid data to support your proposal it will be denied.
The 11 inch code is for comercial buildings