To be fair - Torghast had 2 big flaws, which are not present in the Delves - you HAD to do Torghast and you did not get any single piece of loot from there. Delves actually seem fine, nothing revolutionary, but as an alternative for dungeons they seem good. Hopium I guess.
One thing I liked about Torghast was that it was part of the story. You had to go there to rescue jaina, Baine, etc. If Delves are part of the story then that would be much better than if they were just something you do to collect gear or gold.
@@chrisaustin9949 I think every Delve has a little story related to it and from what I've heard they are rich with environmental storytelling. And who knows - maybe they will be adding more and more over time.
Exactly! Both of those were major drawbacks. I could have played Thorgast for months and months if I could gear from it, but now I ended up having to do boring rep-grinds or dailys to gear and I gave up.
I feel like everything you said could apply to dungeons. You could say the new dungeons coming with the expansion have all of the problems you just mentioned. However, they're still all valid concerns. We shall see. I'm being hopeful.
I was going to say the same thing his logic can be applied to raids and dungeons. The difference is there's 12 delves and only 1 raid and like what 6 Dungeons to start with.
The main difference with Dungeons and Torghast/Delve is that is yes dungeon is always static but doing it as Mythic+ was/is challenging and rewarding which is fun-ish Torghast on the other hand was never really "challenging" certainly not rewarding because if something didn't go your way you could just reset and do it again with no downside aside losing what 2m of your life or something, this is going to be the same with Delve and I'm willing to be it wont be as rewarding mythic+ and raiding
Nixxiom is just a solo hater and retail hater at this point. He bashes anything that isn't super hard or need lots of people to accomplish. Remember he is one of the "yeah don't add lfg to classic wotlk, fuck those casuals that dare to play MY mmorpg!"
@@Overblazer the delve(when season start) get to tier up, wich if I remember well, will be up to M+10...(the hardest key atm)... so please dont start spewing stuff when you dont know how it works, they get their hp and damage raised every tier like for M+...
@@josejuanandrade4439 hes forgeting solo player are and will always be way more numerous than group players..thats just how its been since vanilla wow and the dev are more aware of it now than ever since they are finaly making solo player content. Pretty sure the ratio of group to solo player is 1/6 of the players are group players..
"it's exciting the first few times, then it's like "Ok", and samey." So... like dungeons. Those seem successful enough, still being made after 20 years.
@@ge0f0rc3 its annoying and time consuming to spontaneously jump into a raid/m+. similarly designed content with up to heroic raid loot might be a game changer for people who dropped out of the endgame before for that reason.
I'm mainly a solo player, and I'm looking forward to another way to gear up that doesn't involve the various reasons I'm not personally fan of mythic+ and raiding. I totally get what you're saying about delves getting samey after the first few runs, but... why doesn't that apply to dungeons and raids? Which there are generally less than twelve of each per expansion? Also, I think part of the problem with torghast is that everyone needed to do it for legendary crafting. Delves won't be as bad because they're an alternative pathway, rather than a neccessary one. If you don't want to do delves, or get bored of them, you can just dip out of them for a bit.
Ok.. I get it but dungeons and raids are the same damn thing over and over again but you seem to like those? I found delves fun personally and we did the same one 3 times in a row and it was a bit different. Not the mobs persay but some of the mechanics or what you had to do. In my opinion I'd rather do a delve with my husband than a dungeon we might have to wait for 20+ mins for
I believe you do. It goes up in difficulty and with that better gear. Varying levels of difficulty a bit like mythic plus, but without affixes and single player
id be surprised if you can get anything over Heroic ilvl gear. Blizz has allowed casuals (me) to grab Heroic raid ilvl gear from world content for a while now, but they made sure to keep Mythic raiding and Mythic+ out of the world content offerings, so Mythic gear dropping is probably a no.
@@JasonLeMaire thats the point on delves bro, upgradeable endgame armors and weps just like m+ and pvp. Great for ppl that dont have time to play schedueled raids. Overall very happy with delves, cant wait to see them go live and how they finalize them.
@@UncrownedKingDante Good to know, I have been out of the loop for a while, was thinking about coming back to wow for the War Within. I will like there is something for people to do at endgame that don't raid, I have time to do it, but most of the people I would play with left Wow years ago.
I feel like Nixxiom is just not the target audience for Delves... the type of people who power level with paid addons like Zygor are usually not the same type of people who like to RP walk through the cities and take stuff in and just enjoy the universe and game. People like that are the ones who are going to enjoy Delves, to be honest if it were not for Delves I would be just going back to playing ESO as I am tired of dealing with the community of the game to do end game content. I like being in the same world as other people without having to depend on them to be able to play the content.
Honestly, the more single player friendly a game is but the better off it will be in the long term. All I really did in DF was raid log...because everything else was just completely boring. While ESO isn't the greatest, it does do SP content well enough.
Except you faceroll delves while mythic plus is a whole different can of worms that involves coordination, mastery of your class/spec and optimizing routes/rotations/cd management and all that jazz.
his complaint seems to be along the lines of "Casual = Bad, need to make people play together." that old 2004 Classic Andy thought process that everybody will be a community if they're forced to play together.
Because of the group aspect, every dungeon and raid is different because the other people will change. If you go solo, it will always be the same. It failed with thorgast and with the stormwind/orgrimmar scenarios.
I believe on Bellular's Podcast, they mentioned that the general goal of a delve changed for them on a run so maybe there will be 2 or 3 different goals to do in a delve run. I may have misheard or misunderstood, but I believe that this is the case.
Dont get it... You say delves are repetitive... But you like to play classic, that is the same over and over. I mean, classic is cool and all, but is the same questlines, same dungeons and raids. Yeah the story telling is way better and all, but the gameplay es exact the same. Repeat this dungeon and raid until you have your piece of armor that you want...
Delves getting boring fast would be nothing new to me. I can only run a dungeon so many times too before I'm like "Why am I still here?" My main hope is that they're not too much of a chore to complete as they will likely have weekly quests tied to completing them at some point. Edit: My biggest wish for a delve would be to have multiple story/scenarios taking place in each delve zone. So although we go back, the people and the peril is varied a bit more.
@@KC-py5vq oddly defensive. He’s just saying that in wow you generally run stuff for gear or what you need. After a while nobody is doing normal dungeons for example bc the gear is too low. He just hopes that if the cycle continues that it’s at least more repeatable than torghast for example - or not a time sink for no real reward.
I like that Delves is the new pillar of progression in WoW, granted Mythic Raiding is still highest tier in WoW but Delves are like that solo dungeon for casual people that can also be done with friends. Dungeons get repetitive after a while too same with raiding, so yeah Delves will also I wont deny that. But I am happy that Blizzard is also giving Delves a season like they do Mythic. Maybe I got that Hopium going but I am excited.
MMO's finally starting to learn that spamming the same dungeon over and over again isn't fun, it was never fun, and people only ever did it to get the best gear. What was great about MMOs was LEVELING was the content. And vanilla WoW came with hundreds of hours of content that could be played solo or co-op... MMO designers have no clue what they're doing.
The issue with torghast was that it was tied to player power - forcing raiders and pvp players into a game mode they did not want to interact with. Delves just seem to be something casuals can engage with and feel a sense of progression with their characters.
Honestly at the end of the day I love the idea of a wow version of chalice dungeons, whether randomized or not it's something to do and already it looks like more thought has been put into it than torghast
Torghast had rogue-like elements that were designed to make it repayable. It had random power ups, and the entire level was randomly generated. That's why he mentioned mobs not moving. Because it's an easy way to make a dungeon feel slightly more fresh.
Personally, I want world content to be my main content loop, but I never wanted it to be solo play. I want to take on world bosses with other players, and group form a guild with players who also like world content and exploring . I am still hoping these delves are going to be good content for groups that don't want to get sweaty in M+, which I really don't enjoy. Please don't let this be solo only content
To be fair, don't you get bored of a dungeon or raid after doing it 2 or 3 times? Why would you think this is any different? It's more content to do if you don't have friends to play with. If you do, you do you with your Mythic+ and raids. This content is for those of us who don't have friends or an active guild to play with.
NIxxiom you are old schooler same as many of us that's why I understand your point of view However people have changed alot in this playerbase For years it's no longer for me Let's have fun with Friends Everybody is min-maxing everybody is toxic , there was a time where they did not take you into new raid NORMAL if you did not have CURVE achievement from previous raid.
Blizzard should really take a focus on new player experience and making the endgame less depending on addons And for me who is causal and plays without addons, the game becomes unfun, and if i m invested in a story of an expension that i wanna try, then i just end up insta level 60 in most cases not even finishing the first zone, and i know i can stop the level, but how players would know that? And the leveing just feels too easy and awkward and boring and repetative and lonely, and i feel like i m weaker and weaker and then i just end up spamming dungeons like everyone else without enjoying it or leaving me with good memories.. Has nothing to do with dwelves tho x3 just blizzard should focus on this issue more next to adding newer features
Holly Longdale has been talking to the Dev team and they agree the NPE is crap, BUT they cant fix that at this moment, they intend to fix it when they come up with a solution that sounds better. in the meantime however, Dragonflight will become the NPE starting in The War Within, so at least it wont stick you in the middle of the saga the way that BFA does now, instead new players will be able to see the world in between the old chapter and the new one, starting with The Dragon Isles, which IMO is a huge improvement, not a complete fix by any means, but it should be enough for now.
@@UltimateGamerCC yeee but I hope that thing wont be the case when u hit like pevel 70 and u in the middle of an interesting questline and chromie will be like: HAD FUN IN THW PAST? THE DEPHTS AWAITS YOU, YOU MUST HELP THE DWARFS! *teleports you away and u can never complete that questline bc if u come back then u have outleveled that zone*
I know some player who quit just bc of chromie forced them out of the questing they were in and they were confused as hell, and after lvl 61 they havent continued the game, bc too messy game and their only motivation was to continue is to see what will happen, bc they wasnt a huge fan of the leveling bc they felt it like a chore what becomes harder and more boring, sooo whenever their subscription ended they went poof.. its hard to see new players stick to the game, if they try it bc they looking for a new main game to play, 95% of those players quit after free trial or after subscription ends saddly.. i quit after like 3 months, the only reason i played the game bc I played on private servers and I really loved the game and how it is and its fun to level through it and I can make friends and memories, but didnt felt the same on retail..
@@Lumindracon i get that, but at the same time there's nothing stopping you from going back there and resuming after Chromie Time's over. i dont really see them changing THAT particularly, but with the utter success of MoP Remix, you'll probably get to play older content while remaining somewhat challenged at some point.
Except you follow a scenario and not just mindlessly kill everything in your path like in Eso (no hate, I play Eso and I like it a lot, but everyone seems to compare WoW and Eso delves and the only thing in common is the name tbh.)
@@GioFan201051 Yeah theyre similar in ways but more scenario driven, I like both. Though I do enjoy the solo aspect, Ive been doing some beta runs. It's nice to not have to wait around for boss respawns or losingg out on mob exp bc of others. This, imo, is nice for us solo weirdos XD
@@lorwynmoontide can delves in wow actually get difficult or you can just turn your brain off and kill everything mindlessly? I really hope that you can increase the difficulty and the delves actually challenge you in some ways
@slowmotionfear2 they're supposed to get harder, i didn't bother doing more than lv3 but i could tell a slight difference between 1 and 3. Just slight.
delves is bringing me back from ff14. endgame content i can run with 2 friends? hell yes. wow has a great chance to shine with how mid dawntrail has been
I hope delves are fun but they don't make sense to fill that void people are looking for in end game (single player content in an MMO). I've been saying for years they need some sort of open world PVE + PVP event, horde vs alliance, like castle sieges or something. Maybe something like GW2 WVW, but people can fight players, or pve such as attacking castles, fight bosses, gather resources, build siege vehicles, transport resources.. Gives everyone something to enjoy. And mythic gear / top pvp gear would be equal, and give players a place to actually put it to good use. But the creativity at Blizzard seems to be minimal for a long time now, if they wanted to they would've done it a long time ago.
Delves are for a specific audience who doesn’t enjoy M+, Raids, or PvP. Probably people who play an MMO, at a social level, where they “just enjoy being around other players in a fantasy world”. 🙂 I haven’t dived into higher level delves in the beta yet, but I hope that it might be something I can just chill with, and challenge myself with, without being forced into relying on other players. It’s a chill piece of content, for the casual player, who just want a casual activity to do, which isn’t WQs… 🙂
@@your-username-here2308then we should play SoD and provide them with feedback and constructive criticism so they dont waste the potential on classic+
Don't get me wrong Nixxiom, those weren't actual problems with Torghast. If you played through SL you would know problems torghast had were loot system, basically everything you got was currency for making and upgrading legendaries, and maybe 2-3 mounts but its uncomparable to how much of layers and wings were there. Also you were FORCED to do torghast if you wanted to be competetive in the game because meta revolved around few good legendaries. It felt really upsetting already at beginning of season 2 because item level started to scale. So if you had alts, that would be really depressing for you because so much grind for something that doesnt even stay permanent. Torghast was temporary end game pillar and rewards were temporary but grind was big. Delves are permanent end game pillar similar to torghast but what is different is you are getting actual end game loot, armor and weapons that will most likely be upgradable for currency ( Like rest of end game systems, m+ , pvp etc.) when War within comes live. Also delves have no loading screen, it is literally imbuded with open world. So yes its really similar with randomizing levels , and taking same theme... but other then that, its not same at all. It is meant to stay, and really serve as great option to people that have kids, and/or dont have as much time to play schedueled raids. Great video overall✌
100% agree, the real problem was the mandatory grind, which is honestly really sad, because I overall liked torghas a lot. when blizzard did add more cosmetics and mounts to collect, it was already too late, by that time most people were probably already too fed up with torghast and didn't even care. the 16 or 18 layer twisted corridors was some of the most fun I had in shadowlands
This just isn't a very good take. Delves ARE torghast, and they will get boring after a few runs, he isn't wrong there. the items you get from delves won't be comperable to other forms of end game until you get to the higher levels of difficulty which are going to be overtuned at launch just like torghast was. There's nothing wrong with solo content in retail wow, the game is no longer a social experience outside of guilds so it can't get any worse at this point, but don't go into the expansion over hyped about content that's just re-released from shadowlands.
Leveling sure but at max level what are you doing outside of farming on your own? Personally I spam raid and m+ pretty much exclusively. Just curious what takes up your time at max level if not group content (I enjoy solo play exploring and farming so always looking for more solo things to do and can't wait for delves)
Tbf …. That’s everything with WoW after the first month of new content. It all kinda becomes predictable. I see a possible future where this could be valuable in story telling though. These delves, if Blizzard could think outside the box, as a way to tell mini stories around Azeroth. They did it sorta with heritage armor, and I think they expand a bit more. Like what’s going on in Scarlet Monastery nowadays. Or Razorfen Downs. Or Dire Maul. Black rock etc. instead of long dungeon with multiple bosses, just a small group of zealots(whatever mob) led by a boss taking up residence there, causing trouble. We are sent to take them out before they grow in operations
Not to be a downer, but it sounds more like Nixxiom is getting a bit burned out of WoW in general than just delves. It sounds like he was placing some HIGH expectations on Delves being "that one thing" that can rekindle that "old WoW-Spark" he once had. Delves seem like a great idea, actually. In ESO, delves have been part of the game for a long, long time, and I still enjoy them. They don't "change". Mobs remain the same. Yet there are dailies for delves, and people are doing them all the time. One thing that Blizzard may want to look at, though, is making delves public. That's one thing I do enjoy with ESO delves is seeing other players running around in there. Just like in those Public Dungeons.
The big difference between Delves and Torghast is that the later was mandatory and you had to put a lot of work into it. From what I remember, there wasn't a lot of variety early on (I played during the first patch but didn't return for any other patch after that until Dragonflight) so you had to replay the same areas over and over. Delves are different in that you don't NEED to do them. A player can completely ignore them and they won't miss out on anything in terms of power. There's quite a bit of variety between them aesthetically and mechanically. I don't think they're going to be revolutionary because they're similar to the content we already have. They're very similar to the Delves from ESO, they're mini dungeons that you run into and can solo if you want too. I'm sure they'll be a success so long as player expectation is managed. I really want to see more of these in the future.
My major complaints with Torghast was never about it not being fun. It was fun; and i think most people thought it was fun originally. The reason Torghast is remembered in such a negative light is because eventually people realized that it was mandatory content. You couldn't take a break from it, you had to clear Torghast weekly or your character progression suffered. It felt more like a chore than a game. Delves isn't going to have that problem. If you like Delves, you can do as many delves as your heart desires; if you don't like them you never have to do them, its totally skippable content. There are going to be people that enjoy the challenge of higher tier delves and progression, there will be people that think they are boring and will never step into them -- thats fine, the point is that you have the option to choose now.
Torghast was fun, the issue that came with it was that you HAD to do it regularly, for the Legendaries, there is nothing that is FORCING you to do Delves and THAT is what makes it different from Torghast enough that it will be well received, as you dont HAVE to do Delves to fill your Vault if you dont want to, you can easily do something else and if Blizzard hadnt forced us to play Torghast, i think a lot more people would have enjoyed it overall. so i DO get what you're saying Nixxiom, i just dont think that what you're perceiving as bad is really all that bad, that being said WoW has always had a Casual element to the game, you're just not seeing that since you think that forcing people to interact is still a way to make friends in 2024...
people play these games to... advance their characters... that means...gear! granted i only an the first couple... but nothing dropped... i mean, are they trying to tank their own idea?
I don't agree at all. Delves are fun in the same way a lot of content in an mmo is fun... you get loot which upgrades your character. The dungeon gets more mechanics as you go up in level, and there are a few different goals on a week to week basis. In my view its more similar to something like the nightmare visions from the nyalotha patch than Torghast. Also, for most people, Torghast was annoying because of the mandatory nature of it, and the lack of loot. Mmos are intrinsically games where you repeat content over and over again. In WoW you just have a lot of options on what content you want to play and repeat. This is ideal for solo players or to do with a small group if you want aomething less commital than raids or m+ dungeons, but you want more of a challenge than world content.
I dont understand this... People blow through dungeons fast as hell and do them over and over and over again. People do the same raids over and over and over again. But now we get what amounts to 12-13 mini dungeons. (Even though i spend 15 to 25 minutes in each one because I look for EVERYTHING, which is about how long I spend in most dungeons anyway). And you still are not happy. You also got those guys who spam the same 3 dungeons in classic or in Wrath Classic just spam dungeon finder in full looms until max. But no. Delves are gonna get boring. Varied dungeons with changing objectives and multiple treasures to find every time and sometimes even quests attached. Sorry bro. Terrible take.
so I am going to be forced to have some pet following me around like a dumb hunter for the next expansion... he is going to have his own dumb talent tree, gear, and is going to pull all the mobs in the delves and whatever else forcing me into combat so I cant mount up no more... why!!!???
I have to disagree with you about Torghast. There is no point to Torghast if it did not drop relevant gear upgrades or even gold. Once you acquired the Transmog there was zero point in repeating that content. For me getting gold, upgrades and BoE drops to sell are the game. That's why we do the old content over and over again. It's for those rare and unique drops. Thrill of the hunt brother.
Think of it as multi player content that can also be solo'd There are 12 delves now, but from what I understood, there will be more. The delves will go to 11 lvls this season, which is getting into a mythic plus kind of game play. I imagine lvl 11 will be quite challenging, and considering there are 12 delves atm, that is more than the typical amount of mythic plus dungeons. I see delves as a good thing as it is another part of the TWW gaming park. Delves would really be amazing is if you could do the with a 5 person group with your alts so you could lvl them. Now that would truly be something.
I also think delves will become boring fast. In fact, I recently subbed to WoW again because I heard delves were going to give you heroic level gear. Delves, in my experience, turned out much more simplistic than what I thought. Not even dungeon level fun, just a discount Torghast. Although it's great the gear you get and the fact it's not mandatory, they actually feel more boring to me than Torghast.
Hey, Nixxiom, just wondering.. Do you think raids are being played by millions? Do you think delves will be played by millions? Do you think LFR is played by millions? Do you think mythic raids are played by millions? Here comes the truth. LFR is what the masses play. Leveling is what the masses play. You can literally play both of those solo, LFR just by queueing up. And Delves will be tremendously popular as well. It is not your content? Well.. who cares about what you and your raiding minority wants? Get lost, streamer. Noone should listen to you.
It indeed sounds weird to put single player mode into MMO, but the sound of it dissolves once you experience WoW community yourself and how it plays in generic sense; Simply saying - these toxic brainrots (players) shaped the future game development by themselves, causing many other people to love the game, but hate the player base, getting seizure attacks by simply thinking of M+ or any other "LFG" content. However...! The above is partly countered by the fact that much of the toxicity came up also because of the current game design, an interesting for(;;) loop which doesn't seem to stop, but at least implements an alternative. TLDR: Delves good, cuz M+ toxic and playerbase gives you full-blown case of exploding dysprognosic aphrocopralalia 99% of the time
Queueing for dungeons is already pretty much a "solo delve" except that when you dont know the mechanics because you're new or havent played in a while people will either kick you or trashtalk you. Of course you meet nice people who will help you but the bad experiences are what really stick. Personally I think all dungeons should be soloable, at least the normal version.
Problem with torghast was never variety but the fact it had no decent gear rewards (yeah crappy pets and mogs really don't matter much for most players). If delves have no decent - AND I MEAN REALLY DECENT - gear rewards the whole thing'll die in a weak. If you drop gear doing delves then it'll be fine. I.E. Dungeons are the same repetitive content, but you "get payed" for time spent there. That's why people do dungeons.
The argument that Delves and Torghast get boring fast. Is a bit of a Fallacy. Torghast was just as boring as Castle Nathria or any other Raid or Dungeon. It is literally the same thing. A Piece of Instanced Content. The only difference, as far as them getting boring, between Island Expeditions, Torghast, Delves and M+, and Raids. Is that the latter two, are either experienced at a way slower pace, so get boring slower (Raids) or have a bunch of stuff that keeps changing (Mythic+ Affixes). Island Expeditions flopped because they were the exact same thing with PvP tacked on. Making anyone outside of hardcore PvPers cringe. And the PvPers themselves still had BGs and Arenas to do, and not much time to spare for Expeditions. Which I dont even think gave any PvP specific rewards, in sufficient amounts to justify doing them over the normal PvP content. Torghast flopped because blizzard in their infinite wisdom changed it from its Beta iteration Significantly upon the Launch of SL. And then tied the most important progression system (crafted-legendaries) of the expansion to them. Making it a Mandatory Grind. Which drove the life-expectancy of Torghast down through the earth into the pits of Hell. Since people HAD to do it way, way more often than anyone otherwise would. Which drastically accelerated the rate at which everyone got sick and tired of it. Delves DO run the risk of falling into some of the same traps that Torghast did. But with the amount of them, and all of them being different to some extent, and then each having a variation, that they are all going to rotate through. And them not having anything relevant to an M+ and a Raid player beyond maybe cosmetics or the mount, means those players are far less likely to run every delve twenty billion times and be bored, though arguably those same people would be bored by the difficulty anyway. Leaving everyone else who is not for one reason or another a Dedicated M+er/Raider to do them. And frankly as someone who falls into that category. I am actually very hyped to finally have a piece of meaningful endgame content I can do that isnt a god damn World Quest, or a Slightly Fancier World Quest (DF World Events), while still having these things available as a Backup and or something you do inbetween the actual Fun Thing That Matters!
I actually love Torghast, espically the first week before they nerfed the enemies. The only thing I didn't like is espically week 1, you couldn't keep doing it if you wanted to climb, it almost felt like a system you needed bis to really dive into. There wasn't a good progression to it, and irrc you got a limited amount of soul ash you could get back than, so after a couple times a week there was no need to go back in. I think Delve's can fix this because you can keep going in and feel like your moving somewhere. the power in Delves seem kind boring espically in comparison to Torghast, though it will probably be nice not having the difficulty of the run be dependent on how lucky you can get with the random power pick-ups.
no supriise. Retail wow is an uncooked/bloated mess. No one should be shocked. It will be the same old thing. Hopefully the story improves but expect....hit max lvl with no challenge, gear up in dungeons/raids....min/max a toon and do M+ and spend $$$ in the shop. Give me a break. Hard pass. Blizzard is out of ideas/inspiration. It is the same old formula that wont bring in new players and they whip out a poop covered carrot for the long time WoW players. Enjoy. Yum.
I dont think you are wrong, i think if they do anything other than make it a new optional mode akin to mythic dungeon grinding (timegating grinds, mandate the new mode for story completion, oldschool flying, reputatuon, etc) than absolutely. If it however is JUST a new optional mode that gets new layouts, locations, loot tables maybe not. I would personally enjoy being able to get BiS from a selective coop/solo option. My hope is that delves are what I WANTED torghast to be. I personally cannot stand raiding/the wow communities obsession with rushing content, you always have to be the MOST efficent and be ready for the fastest runs. Im more a stop a moment and listen kind of person. Constant min maxing makes me tired.
I think delves will be brining back alot of the old players that have tight schedules revolving around starting families. Personally since becoming a parent, the idea of going back into scheduled raiding and mythic + is an impossible concept. Being able to jump in casually for 30 minutes and bang out some Delves is the one thing brining me back.
I really wonder what the design team is thinking when designing such experiences, like ok, what's the goal here? We want to design a piece of instanced solo content that players will want to do over and over without it getting too boring or repetitive, it can stay relevant and it can't be more rewarding than M+ or raiding in terms of gear. There's so many ways to approach this, why not make different delves that also help in things other than gearing? For instance, you have a couple of delves that have a chance for a room that drops a lot of gold or farming nodes, you have a couple of delves where you need to beat x number of rooms and you pick rooms based on enemy type to hunt for specific cosmetics or to make it easier/harder for yourself and a couple where you pick based on the rewards you'll get from the next room, or there's puzzles before each room and if you don't solve them there's some weird twist, or one where there's "infinite" rooms but you can't heal and you're trying to reach certain levels to unlock some reward. These are just off the top of my head, there's so much stuff you can do to make both gameplay and rewards interesting especially when you are trying to make content that might be helpful for things other than gearing up, I don't understand why blizzard is so opposed to or hasn't thought of creating new game loops around farming gold, resources or crafting.
Yeah, the inclusion of Torghast powers makes this feature dead in the water. Blizzard just doesn’t seem capable of producing fun content just letting us play our characters normally. Island Expeditions (especially PVp) were better than Torghast and frankly look better than this
Delves are going to be something that is kind of relevant and “eh, they’re okay” for maybe the first couple of weeks of the very first patch of this next expac. Then they will become immediately irrelevant and just more dead content that no one does seriously. It is so stupid that so many resources and so much manpower has been wasted on this crap feature that is doomed to be irrelevant and unplayed after the first month. It will go the way of Islands, Warfronts and Torghast. It will not be to solo queue answer to M+. I wouldn’t even be mad if Blizzard just scrapped them outright and reallocated those resources to fixing some of the classes that don’t have a single viable hero talent tree (Rogue/Hunter)
This game is an ancient quarter-of-century outdated broken F2p game but somehow suckers are paying for it... And they expect things to get better. It's a shame. Metzen should have never returned. Making a project from scratch is a better idea than fixing this clusterpuck.
Question to people who want solo content? Have you heard of LEVELING? maybe WoW should stop making it's leveling absolute garbage? Maybe instead of designing it to be ignored to get to end game you design it so it actually good & challenging content???
I've run a few delves on Beta...its painfully boring and unappealing. As long as players are not forced to run delves (like we were with Choreghast for Legendaries), then I will likely never play the content. And thats so crappy.
More casual players don't always have time for group content. Especially players that were there at the start of the game 20 odd years ago and have familes and lives outside of the game, but really want to get a fix when the kids are in bed or whatever. So single player content is good, you're paying monthly for content regardless if you're into group or questing and soloing.
to me delves are more like small instances. And btw, you can do them in a group. Instances are the same all expansion and people do them over and over and over again hunting for the specific item they need or the next upgrade to get the gear score up in all kinds of difficulties. So, because delves increase in difficulty I can totally see that catching me, wanting to master them as high as I can go. Definitely the mount is something I want to have. Finally some piece of content where keystone scumbags cannot mess up my game experience. I am fine with alts on a certain gear level knowing they wont reach higher. Thanks to warbands we can do the content on multiple chars, changing the experience of delves through spec variety as well. And the lack of differentiation between the runs at the same delve does not matter, after all it might help to increase in difficulty because some things stay as is while others change and get harder. Just like raids in LFR, which are the most basic boss fights, while heroic adds mechanics to them players have to deal with. Mythic dungeons never caught my attention, they might be fun but finding a group I can have fun with usually never happens more than two times in a row. So, people not having those networks or static groups they can play with get a neat piece of content they can enjoy at their own pace. They will also change every season. Delves will be great.
Delves will get boring super fast like they do in ESO but blizzard can take a page from ESO and do events surrounding those delves that drop unique gear or other items that would keep players engaged in delves.
I think one of the problems they have with this type of content and why it's not working is because the game is seasonal and things change patch to patch with the game like mythic plus affix's and the dungeons that are available for mythic plus per season but these 1 off modes like torgast and delves aren't getting the same treatment. You need to change those up as well if you want to keep them fresh. They are roguelikes and roguelikes are suppose to have replay-ability sure but if you don't change them or add new things they get old pretty quickly especially if you're grinding them a lot.
my problem with the its the same thing over and over, not replayable enough arguement is when you simplify anything in a game of course it seems dumb. Raiding, You clear some trash, do a boss that you just learn the dance for and it becomes trivial M+, you clear some mobs, do the boss, not get the loot you want repeat the same dungeons till end of season pvp, fight the flavour of the month team comp/classes, lose if you arnt playing that, mirror match if you are questing, go to npc fetch quest, go back to npc, kill quest, go back to npc
Almost everything we do in video games that is repetitive gets boring lol. Dungeons, raids, pvp, fishing, then irl work gets boring because it's repetitive and doesn't always change much. Delves will only be successful if the loot is worth it.
This is pretty bad feedback. Boiling torghast’s nuances down just “repeats content is boring” in an mmo where we literally replay the same content on weekly timers is just dumb. The dumbest take honestly.
Eh it’s ganna be irrelevant next expac. Biz should literally keep shit that they introduced that players like delves could be a good idea. Long term heck they could probably bring it to the old worlds so people revisit areas but you know biz will make this irrelevant next exp
I’m looking forward to turning Delves and Professions into a progression system for an army of characters. I will probably not be bothered by the repetition since most of WoW is some sort of repetition anyway. It’s just a matter of what kind of repetition you enjoy.
I cant but laugh at all the comments saying Nixxiom is not right to comment on delves. Most of them come from antisocial people in wow who wished for wow solo mode like delves so they wont be forced to make a group or play to their chars highest potential. Wow is dying and i think this new generation wont be able to sustain it if we all veterans just unsub. Wich due to SoD the ripple effect already started. Welcome to the finish line for wow
So. What about gear? I mean. Something I've noticed from wow. Is that when some mechanic doesn't give end game gear it's left behind really fast. I mean there are reslly cool mechanics in the game that would do great if only it would help you keep up with the people that do raid and play with them.
mate people spam the same 8 dungeons in m+ every season, so it aint about variety but progression, if they give scalable difficulty that give scalable gear people will do them cos wow is all about the ilvl number for almost everyone.
The thing we pretty learnt the last several years regarding WoW is that the team do not know how to innovate on any system the implemented pretty much, so expecting Delves to be fun and repayable was given that its not going to be, this looks exactly the same with different mobs than Torghast I do not see a situation that this feature will be fun to replay as Mythic+ is fun to replay.
tbh raids and 5 man instances get boring really fast also....this whole game is boring pvp actually lasts forever cuz you deal with real enemy's that hunt you. bliz really needs to make instances more alive where when you are detected the whole instance starts to hunt you , that would be fun lol actually the islands with the ai players in bfa were kindov fun to hunt them lol
Sounds pretty okay, something I'll do if my PC is bugging out and I have to play Solo stuff but overall I feel like I'd get pretty lonely pretty fast doing this
The multiplayer aspect of the Game is imposible for US casuals, havent been able to stay in a Guild because all of them requiere daily logins and constant participation and Even if I could i don't want to feel tied to the Game, delves are perfect to me
People spam dungeons, what is the difference between delves and dungeons? is delves only normal difficulty and only good for lvling and useless at endgame? like many others say, i dont understand the complaint about it.
hmm i cant really chare your opinion on this one, the leading argument is that they may be to repetitive, what about regular dungeons? besides affixes and your 4 other mates they stay the same always. Delves for me are gonna be a fine addition to our activities and as long the gameplay is fun i dont see it fail like torghast.
wow has not been known for " community" for the better part of a decade if not longer. this is the first time i have heard about this, legit first thing that has peaked my interest since cata. last time i was excited was when they added "player housing" and it turned into what ever the fuck they called it. did not even buy that expansion.
I mean come on, if you can do 8 8dg, 1 raid and 13 delves, and you still need more stuff, you need to go play something else man, take a break, lay dwon a while, go to the gym, read a book, take a break pls.
This needed to be a lot more randomised for replay value and it needed to have the option to bring a member of your warband. It has neither. This content will be dead in 2 months time and be added to Mount Obsolescence along with everything else they tried.
How is it being the same every time any different than dungeons? They're the same every time too. So are raids in fact. Delves are simply dungeons for solo players. I like them so far.
to be fair they stated that they will be different every time you go into the same delve it does change, I did earthcrawlers and there are three version of that delve and they are different. they have not advertised it yet.. but they really need to power up branns healing abilities.. adn you have to the bountiful delves too so there are two different delves types the reg delves and the bountiful delves.. and they are in the great vault too and go up to heroic so that makes them more interesting.
" I dont like solo content in an mmo" So quests should be removed? Dungeons and raids dont get boring? It is just another play mode. Torghast was a fail. but I liked island expeditions and scenarios. This feels more like those. I actually fear they try to make this into the new mythic plus content.
im not sure im subbing to this game ever again after i came back for bfa and shadowlands. wow is sooooooo bad now... i enjoyed only classic for a while. turtle wow obliterates it tho so even classic wasnt that good
I predict delves will be a bit more loved than you expect. I know I'm going to love the solo content as my friend group is gone =/ and I just want to be casual with the game when I return. Just going from the info from my friend group as we did TG often, the reasons we disliked Torghast was because of a few different reasons, not because of it feeling the same after a while. That same argument goes with M+ too and even raiding if you do it more than once or twice. 1. It was ugly and visually unpleasant to be inside after the first time. 2. No equipment dropped from the place and this killed the fun of progression, forcing us to do content I did not want to do (M+), for gear just so I could do more TG. 3. The combat was not that fun, once you progressed a good ways into TG you die instantly, CC felt horrible, traps sucked, and it felt like a slog. 4. You had to do it. 5. Outside of a few items even the cosmetics there kinda sucked, and where themed in a way most people would not even want them. 6. The whole timer thing and needing to be quick to score high also sucked, you could not do things at your own pace. I feel like Delves could be big, but they will need to continuously work on them of course. I'm going to have some hope for the system.
delves are an illusion to string along solo world quest people delves only give up to m+6 loot and they dont count toward your io score. no real m+ player would care to do delves.
To be fair - Torghast had 2 big flaws, which are not present in the Delves - you HAD to do Torghast and you did not get any single piece of loot from there. Delves actually seem fine, nothing revolutionary, but as an alternative for dungeons they seem good. Hopium I guess.
One thing I liked about Torghast was that it was part of the story. You had to go there to rescue jaina, Baine, etc. If Delves are part of the story then that would be much better than if they were just something you do to collect gear or gold.
@@chrisaustin9949 I think every Delve has a little story related to it and from what I've heard they are rich with environmental storytelling. And who knows - maybe they will be adding more and more over time.
You got more of that Hopium stuff?
@@Straggler8 They definitely will be adding more and continually refining delves
Exactly! Both of those were major drawbacks. I could have played Thorgast for months and months if I could gear from it, but now I ended up having to do boring rep-grinds or dailys to gear and I gave up.
I feel like everything you said could apply to dungeons. You could say the new dungeons coming with the expansion have all of the problems you just mentioned. However, they're still all valid concerns. We shall see. I'm being hopeful.
I was going to say the same thing his logic can be applied to raids and dungeons. The difference is there's 12 delves and only 1 raid and like what 6 Dungeons to start with.
The main difference with Dungeons and Torghast/Delve is that is yes dungeon is always static but doing it as Mythic+ was/is challenging and rewarding which is fun-ish Torghast on the other hand was never really "challenging" certainly not rewarding because if something didn't go your way you could just reset and do it again with no downside aside losing what 2m of your life or something, this is going to be the same with Delve and I'm willing to be it wont be as rewarding mythic+ and raiding
Nixxiom is just a solo hater and retail hater at this point. He bashes anything that isn't super hard or need lots of people to accomplish.
Remember he is one of the "yeah don't add lfg to classic wotlk, fuck those casuals that dare to play MY mmorpg!"
@@Overblazer the delve(when season start) get to tier up, wich if I remember well, will be up to M+10...(the hardest key atm)... so please dont start spewing stuff when you dont know how it works, they get their hp and damage raised every tier like for M+...
@@josejuanandrade4439 hes forgeting solo player are and will always be way more numerous than group players..thats just how its been since vanilla wow and the dev are more aware of it now than ever since they are finaly making solo player content. Pretty sure the ratio of group to solo player is 1/6 of the players are group players..
"it's exciting the first few times, then it's like "Ok", and samey." So... like dungeons. Those seem successful enough, still being made after 20 years.
At least with dungeons you are with other players. Doing the same thing by yourself will get old real fast.
@@ge0f0rc3 delves you can do solo or in a group, its basically torghast + island expedition tech merged together.
@@ge0f0rc3 You can do it in a group too though
Yea I thougt about the same thing
@@ge0f0rc3 its annoying and time consuming to spontaneously jump into a raid/m+. similarly designed content with up to heroic raid loot might be a game changer for people who dropped out of the endgame before for that reason.
I'm mainly a solo player, and I'm looking forward to another way to gear up that doesn't involve the various reasons I'm not personally fan of mythic+ and raiding. I totally get what you're saying about delves getting samey after the first few runs, but... why doesn't that apply to dungeons and raids? Which there are generally less than twelve of each per expansion?
Also, I think part of the problem with torghast is that everyone needed to do it for legendary crafting. Delves won't be as bad because they're an alternative pathway, rather than a neccessary one. If you don't want to do delves, or get bored of them, you can just dip out of them for a bit.
Ok.. I get it but dungeons and raids are the same damn thing over and over again but you seem to like those?
I found delves fun personally and we did the same one 3 times in a row and it was a bit different. Not the mobs persay but some of the mechanics or what you had to do. In my opinion I'd rather do a delve with my husband than a dungeon we might have to wait for 20+ mins for
Do you get end game loot out of Delves? If you do, I am in, I don't raid, I don't do Mythic, so if you do, that would be great.
I believe you do. It goes up in difficulty and with that better gear. Varying levels of difficulty a bit like mythic plus, but without affixes and single player
id be surprised if you can get anything over Heroic ilvl gear. Blizz has allowed casuals (me) to grab Heroic raid ilvl gear from world content for a while now, but they made sure to keep Mythic raiding and Mythic+ out of the world content offerings, so Mythic gear dropping is probably a no.
@@JasonLeMaire thats the point on delves bro, upgradeable endgame armors and weps just like m+ and pvp.
Great for ppl that dont have time to play schedueled raids. Overall very happy with delves, cant wait to see them go live and how they finalize them.
@@UncrownedKingDante Good to know, I have been out of the loop for a while, was thinking about coming back to wow for the War Within. I will like there is something for people to do at endgame that don't raid, I have time to do it, but most of the people I would play with left Wow years ago.
yes, they have said this is comparable to raids and mythic as far as end game loot goes.
I feel like Nixxiom is just not the target audience for Delves... the type of people who power level with paid addons like Zygor are usually not the same type of people who like to RP walk through the cities and take stuff in and just enjoy the universe and game. People like that are the ones who are going to enjoy Delves, to be honest if it were not for Delves I would be just going back to playing ESO as I am tired of dealing with the community of the game to do end game content. I like being in the same world as other people without having to depend on them to be able to play the content.
Honestly, the more single player friendly a game is but the better off it will be in the long term. All I really did in DF was raid log...because everything else was just completely boring. While ESO isn't the greatest, it does do SP content well enough.
This. And this allows you to jump on content with them should you want tl wothout fepending on them.
This complaint doesn’t make sense, yes they don’t change, but neither do any dungeon or raid we do… so what is the complaint.
Except you faceroll delves while mythic plus is a whole different can of worms that involves coordination, mastery of your class/spec and optimizing routes/rotations/cd management and all that jazz.
@@Relhio have you done delves?
his complaint seems to be along the lines of "Casual = Bad, need to make people play together." that old 2004 Classic Andy thought process that everybody will be a community if they're forced to play together.
@@UltimateGamerCC Don't play MMOs then...
Because of the group aspect, every dungeon and raid is different because the other people will change. If you go solo, it will always be the same. It failed with thorgast and with the stormwind/orgrimmar scenarios.
WE NEED BRAWLERS GUILD BACK
Blizz said they are working on making brawler guild permanent evergreen
@@bobbob-mr3jc where have they said this I’m curious to read about it I’ve missed it for so long
@@sii9814 agreed, i would love to see the proof, aint heard from Blizz about Brawler's since BFA and that scares me.
@@UltimateGamerCC apparently they said something in a interview I think
Can confirm. Was a Interview with one of the devs. But no real annouce
Dude doesn’t sound too enthusiastic to be sponsored by zygor lol
I believe on Bellular's Podcast, they mentioned that the general goal of a delve changed for them on a run so maybe there will be 2 or 3 different goals to do in a delve run. I may have misheard or misunderstood, but I believe that this is the case.
Dont get it... You say delves are repetitive... But you like to play classic, that is the same over and over. I mean, classic is cool and all, but is the same questlines, same dungeons and raids. Yeah the story telling is way better and all, but the gameplay es exact the same. Repeat this dungeon and raid until you have your piece of armor that you want...
Delves getting boring fast would be nothing new to me. I can only run a dungeon so many times too before I'm like "Why am I still here?" My main hope is that they're not too much of a chore to complete as they will likely have weekly quests tied to completing them at some point.
Edit: My biggest wish for a delve would be to have multiple story/scenarios taking place in each delve zone. So although we go back, the people and the peril is varied a bit more.
agree on your opinion
Sounds like you should just move on to.a different game
@@KC-py5vq oddly defensive. He’s just saying that in wow you generally run stuff for gear or what you need. After a while nobody is doing normal dungeons for example bc the gear is too low. He just hopes that if the cycle continues that it’s at least more repeatable than torghast for example - or not a time sink for no real reward.
This is how I feel. I don't like to the same content for that long.
like your idea of scenarios etc, but thats a lot of extra work to create. probably not happening, sadly.
I like that Delves is the new pillar of progression in WoW, granted Mythic Raiding is still highest tier in WoW but Delves are like that solo dungeon for casual people that can also be done with friends. Dungeons get repetitive after a while too same with raiding, so yeah Delves will also I wont deny that. But I am happy that Blizzard is also giving Delves a season like they do Mythic. Maybe I got that Hopium going but I am excited.
Whats the difference to doing the same m+? That gets boring real quick too
MMO's finally starting to learn that spamming the same dungeon over and over again isn't fun, it was never fun, and people only ever did it to get the best gear.
What was great about MMOs was LEVELING was the content. And vanilla WoW came with hundreds of hours of content that could be played solo or co-op...
MMO designers have no clue what they're doing.
Blizzard stole this concept from Elder Scrolls Online.
The issue with torghast was that it was tied to player power - forcing raiders and pvp players into a game mode they did not want to interact with. Delves just seem to be something casuals can engage with and feel a sense of progression with their characters.
Honestly at the end of the day I love the idea of a wow version of chalice dungeons, whether randomized or not it's something to do and already it looks like more thought has been put into it than torghast
Torghast had rogue-like elements that were designed to make it repayable. It had random power ups, and the entire level was randomly generated.
That's why he mentioned mobs not moving. Because it's an easy way to make a dungeon feel slightly more fresh.
Personally, I want world content to be my main content loop, but I never wanted it to be solo play. I want to take on world bosses with other players, and group form a guild with players who also like world content and exploring . I am still hoping these delves are going to be good content for groups that don't want to get sweaty in M+, which I really don't enjoy. Please don't let this be solo only content
To be fair, don't you get bored of a dungeon or raid after doing it 2 or 3 times? Why would you think this is any different? It's more content to do if you don't have friends to play with. If you do, you do you with your Mythic+ and raids. This content is for those of us who don't have friends or an active guild to play with.
NIxxiom you are old schooler same as many of us that's why I understand your point of view
However people have changed alot in this playerbase
For years it's no longer for me Let's have fun with Friends
Everybody is min-maxing everybody is toxic , there was a time where they did not take you into new raid NORMAL if you did not have CURVE achievement from previous raid.
Blizzard should really take a focus on new player experience and making the endgame less depending on addons
And for me who is causal and plays without addons, the game becomes unfun, and if i m invested in a story of an expension that i wanna try, then i just end up insta level 60 in most cases not even finishing the first zone, and i know i can stop the level, but how players would know that? And the leveing just feels too easy and awkward and boring and repetative and lonely, and i feel like i m weaker and weaker and then i just end up spamming dungeons like everyone else without enjoying it or leaving me with good memories..
Has nothing to do with dwelves tho x3 just blizzard should focus on this issue more next to adding newer features
Holly Longdale has been talking to the Dev team and they agree the NPE is crap, BUT they cant fix that at this moment, they intend to fix it when they come up with a solution that sounds better. in the meantime however, Dragonflight will become the NPE starting in The War Within, so at least it wont stick you in the middle of the saga the way that BFA does now, instead new players will be able to see the world in between the old chapter and the new one, starting with The Dragon Isles, which IMO is a huge improvement, not a complete fix by any means, but it should be enough for now.
@@UltimateGamerCC yeee but I hope that thing wont be the case when u hit like pevel 70 and u in the middle of an interesting questline and chromie will be like: HAD FUN IN THW PAST? THE DEPHTS AWAITS YOU, YOU MUST HELP THE DWARFS! *teleports you away and u can never complete that questline bc if u come back then u have outleveled that zone*
I know some player who quit just bc of chromie forced them out of the questing they were in and they were confused as hell, and after lvl 61 they havent continued the game, bc too messy game and their only motivation was to continue is to see what will happen, bc they wasnt a huge fan of the leveling bc they felt it like a chore what becomes harder and more boring, sooo whenever their subscription ended they went poof.. its hard to see new players stick to the game, if they try it bc they looking for a new main game to play, 95% of those players quit after free trial or after subscription ends saddly.. i quit after like 3 months, the only reason i played the game bc I played on private servers and I really loved the game and how it is and its fun to level through it and I can make friends and memories, but didnt felt the same on retail..
@@Lumindracon i get that, but at the same time there's nothing stopping you from going back there and resuming after Chromie Time's over. i dont really see them changing THAT particularly, but with the utter success of MoP Remix, you'll probably get to play older content while remaining somewhat challenged at some point.
It's pretty much eso delves, just totally solo unless you are in a group. Fine by me.
Except you follow a scenario and not just mindlessly kill everything in your path like in Eso (no hate, I play Eso and I like it a lot, but everyone seems to compare WoW and Eso delves and the only thing in common is the name tbh.)
@@GioFan201051 Yeah theyre similar in ways but more scenario driven, I like both. Though I do enjoy the solo aspect, Ive been doing some beta runs. It's nice to not have to wait around for boss respawns or losingg out on mob exp bc of others. This, imo, is nice for us solo weirdos XD
@@lorwynmoontide can delves in wow actually get difficult or you can just turn your brain off and kill everything mindlessly? I really hope that you can increase the difficulty and the delves actually challenge you in some ways
@slowmotionfear2 they're supposed to get harder, i didn't bother doing more than lv3 but i could tell a slight difference between 1 and 3. Just slight.
delves is bringing me back from ff14. endgame content i can run with 2 friends? hell yes. wow has a great chance to shine with how mid dawntrail has been
Nixxiom back with the weirdest dogshit take after playing something for 3 hours and not understanding it
I hope delves are fun but they don't make sense to fill that void people are looking for in end game (single player content in an MMO). I've been saying for years they need some sort of open world PVE + PVP event, horde vs alliance, like castle sieges or something. Maybe something like GW2 WVW, but people can fight players, or pve such as attacking castles, fight bosses, gather resources, build siege vehicles, transport resources.. Gives everyone something to enjoy. And mythic gear / top pvp gear would be equal, and give players a place to actually put it to good use. But the creativity at Blizzard seems to be minimal for a long time now, if they wanted to they would've done it a long time ago.
No, they just need to make leveling good again.
M+ needed a couple reworks so I expect this will too over time. I am a (mostly) solo after work player and I hope it's good.
Delves are for a specific audience who doesn’t enjoy M+, Raids, or PvP. Probably people who play an MMO, at a social level, where they “just enjoy being around other players in a fantasy world”. 🙂
I haven’t dived into higher level delves in the beta yet, but I hope that it might be something I can just chill with, and challenge myself with, without being forced into relying on other players.
It’s a chill piece of content, for the casual player, who just want a casual activity to do, which isn’t WQs… 🙂
And thats why i hope for classic+. Getting a Playerbase who dont want to team up with others is really the Modern Age.
@@your-username-here2308then we should play SoD and provide them with feedback and constructive criticism so they dont waste the potential on classic+
Don't get me wrong Nixxiom, those weren't actual problems with Torghast.
If you played through SL you would know problems torghast had were loot system, basically everything you got was currency for making and upgrading legendaries, and maybe 2-3 mounts but its uncomparable to how much of layers and wings were there.
Also you were FORCED to do torghast if you wanted to be competetive in the game because meta revolved around few good legendaries.
It felt really upsetting already at beginning of season 2 because item level started to scale.
So if you had alts, that would be really depressing for you because so much grind for something that doesnt even stay permanent.
Torghast was temporary end game pillar and rewards were temporary but grind was big.
Delves are permanent end game pillar similar to torghast but what is different is you are getting actual end game loot, armor and weapons that will most likely be upgradable for currency ( Like rest of end game systems, m+ , pvp etc.) when War within comes live.
Also delves have no loading screen, it is literally imbuded with open world.
So yes its really similar with randomizing levels , and taking same theme... but other then that, its not same at all.
It is meant to stay, and really serve as great option to people that have kids, and/or dont have as much time to play schedueled raids.
Great video overall✌
100% agree, the real problem was the mandatory grind, which is honestly really sad, because I overall liked torghas a lot.
when blizzard did add more cosmetics and mounts to collect, it was already too late, by that time most people were probably already too fed up with torghast and didn't even care.
the 16 or 18 layer twisted corridors was some of the most fun I had in shadowlands
This just isn't a very good take. Delves ARE torghast, and they will get boring after a few runs, he isn't wrong there.
the items you get from delves won't be comperable to other forms of end game until you get to the higher levels of difficulty which are going to be overtuned at launch just like torghast was.
There's nothing wrong with solo content in retail wow, the game is no longer a social experience outside of guilds so it can't get any worse at this point, but don't go into the expansion over hyped about content that's just re-released from shadowlands.
@@shadowlife15I disagree Delves are more like solo dungeons then they are torghast.
@@shadowlife15 They've already said delves can drop up to heroic raid level gear, which is very good gear for 99% of players
@@anthonyzarfati3579 Torghast WAS solo dungeon content. Literally the same thing.
90% of the time you're playing World of Warcraft on your own. I think delves is an amazing piece of content.
Leveling sure but at max level what are you doing outside of farming on your own? Personally I spam raid and m+ pretty much exclusively. Just curious what takes up your time at max level if not group content (I enjoy solo play exploring and farming so always looking for more solo things to do and can't wait for delves)
Nixxiom I have been a fan of your channel for a long time. You have changed your ways of a content creator into a content doomer.
Tbf …. That’s everything with WoW after the first month of new content. It all kinda becomes predictable. I see a possible future where this could be valuable in story telling though. These delves, if Blizzard could think outside the box, as a way to tell mini stories around Azeroth. They did it sorta with heritage armor, and I think they expand a bit more. Like what’s going on in Scarlet Monastery nowadays. Or Razorfen Downs. Or Dire Maul. Black rock etc. instead of long dungeon with multiple bosses, just a small group of zealots(whatever mob) led by a boss taking up residence there, causing trouble. We are sent to take them out before they grow in operations
Are those Grey Knights I see...By the Emperor's Light I have never seen such a being in my life I swear this to him.
Not to be a downer, but it sounds more like Nixxiom is getting a bit burned out of WoW in general than just delves. It sounds like he was placing some HIGH expectations on Delves being "that one thing" that can rekindle that "old WoW-Spark" he once had.
Delves seem like a great idea, actually. In ESO, delves have been part of the game for a long, long time, and I still enjoy them. They don't "change". Mobs remain the same. Yet there are dailies for delves, and people are doing them all the time. One thing that Blizzard may want to look at, though, is making delves public. That's one thing I do enjoy with ESO delves is seeing other players running around in there. Just like in those Public Dungeons.
Delves would probably be better if Blizzard offered RUclipsrs that Tencent money.
The big difference between Delves and Torghast is that the later was mandatory and you had to put a lot of work into it. From what I remember, there wasn't a lot of variety early on (I played during the first patch but didn't return for any other patch after that until Dragonflight) so you had to replay the same areas over and over.
Delves are different in that you don't NEED to do them. A player can completely ignore them and they won't miss out on anything in terms of power. There's quite a bit of variety between them aesthetically and mechanically.
I don't think they're going to be revolutionary because they're similar to the content we already have. They're very similar to the Delves from ESO, they're mini dungeons that you run into and can solo if you want too. I'm sure they'll be a success so long as player expectation is managed. I really want to see more of these in the future.
My major complaints with Torghast was never about it not being fun. It was fun; and i think most people thought it was fun originally. The reason Torghast is remembered in such a negative light is because eventually people realized that it was mandatory content. You couldn't take a break from it, you had to clear Torghast weekly or your character progression suffered. It felt more like a chore than a game. Delves isn't going to have that problem. If you like Delves, you can do as many delves as your heart desires; if you don't like them you never have to do them, its totally skippable content. There are going to be people that enjoy the challenge of higher tier delves and progression, there will be people that think they are boring and will never step into them -- thats fine, the point is that you have the option to choose now.
Torghast was fun, the issue that came with it was that you HAD to do it regularly, for the Legendaries, there is nothing that is FORCING you to do Delves and THAT is what makes it different from Torghast enough that it will be well received, as you dont HAVE to do Delves to fill your Vault if you dont want to, you can easily do something else and if Blizzard hadnt forced us to play Torghast, i think a lot more people would have enjoyed it overall. so i DO get what you're saying Nixxiom, i just dont think that what you're perceiving as bad is really all that bad, that being said WoW has always had a Casual element to the game, you're just not seeing that since you think that forcing people to interact is still a way to make friends in 2024...
people play these games to...
advance their characters...
that means...gear!
granted i only an the first couple...
but nothing dropped...
i mean, are they trying to tank
their own idea?
I don't agree at all. Delves are fun in the same way a lot of content in an mmo is fun... you get loot which upgrades your character. The dungeon gets more mechanics as you go up in level, and there are a few different goals on a week to week basis. In my view its more similar to something like the nightmare visions from the nyalotha patch than Torghast. Also, for most people, Torghast was annoying because of the mandatory nature of it, and the lack of loot.
Mmos are intrinsically games where you repeat content over and over again. In WoW you just have a lot of options on what content you want to play and repeat. This is ideal for solo players or to do with a small group if you want aomething less commital than raids or m+ dungeons, but you want more of a challenge than world content.
I dont understand this... People blow through dungeons fast as hell and do them over and over and over again. People do the same raids over and over and over again. But now we get what amounts to 12-13 mini dungeons. (Even though i spend 15 to 25 minutes in each one because I look for EVERYTHING, which is about how long I spend in most dungeons anyway). And you still are not happy. You also got those guys who spam the same 3 dungeons in classic or in Wrath Classic just spam dungeon finder in full looms until max. But no. Delves are gonna get boring. Varied dungeons with changing objectives and multiple treasures to find every time and sometimes even quests attached. Sorry bro. Terrible take.
so I am going to be forced to have some pet following me around like a dumb hunter for the next expansion... he is going to have his own dumb talent tree, gear, and is going to pull all the mobs in the delves and whatever else forcing me into combat so I cant mount up no more... why!!!???
I have to disagree with you about Torghast. There is no point to Torghast if it did not drop relevant gear upgrades or even gold. Once you acquired the Transmog there was zero point in repeating that content. For me getting gold, upgrades and BoE drops to sell are the game. That's why we do the old content over and over again. It's for those rare and unique drops. Thrill of the hunt brother.
Think of it as multi player content that can also be solo'd
There are 12 delves now, but from what I understood, there will be more.
The delves will go to 11 lvls this season, which is getting into a mythic plus kind of game play. I imagine lvl 11 will be quite challenging, and considering there are 12 delves atm, that is more than the typical amount of mythic plus dungeons.
I see delves as a good thing as it is another part of the TWW gaming park.
Delves would really be amazing is if you could do the with a 5 person group with your alts so you could lvl them. Now that would truly be something.
I also think delves will become boring fast. In fact, I recently subbed to WoW again because I heard delves were going to give you heroic level gear. Delves, in my experience, turned out much more simplistic than what I thought. Not even dungeon level fun, just a discount Torghast. Although it's great the gear you get and the fact it's not mandatory, they actually feel more boring to me than Torghast.
Hey, Nixxiom, just wondering..
Do you think raids are being played by millions?
Do you think delves will be played by millions?
Do you think LFR is played by millions?
Do you think mythic raids are played by millions?
Here comes the truth. LFR is what the masses play. Leveling is what the masses play. You can literally play both of those solo, LFR just by queueing up. And Delves will be tremendously popular as well. It is not your content? Well.. who cares about what you and your raiding minority wants? Get lost, streamer. Noone should listen to you.
It indeed sounds weird to put single player mode into MMO, but the sound of it dissolves once you experience WoW community yourself and how it plays in generic sense; Simply saying - these toxic brainrots (players) shaped the future game development by themselves, causing many other people to love the game, but hate the player base, getting seizure attacks by simply thinking of M+ or any other "LFG" content. However...! The above is partly countered by the fact that much of the toxicity came up also because of the current game design, an interesting for(;;) loop which doesn't seem to stop, but at least implements an alternative.
TLDR:
Delves good, cuz M+ toxic and playerbase gives you full-blown case of exploding dysprognosic aphrocopralalia 99% of the time
Queueing for dungeons is already pretty much a "solo delve" except that when you dont know the mechanics because you're new or havent played in a while people will either kick you or trashtalk you. Of course you meet nice people who will help you but the bad experiences are what really stick. Personally I think all dungeons should be soloable, at least the normal version.
Problem with torghast was never variety but the fact it had no decent gear rewards (yeah crappy pets and mogs really don't matter much for most players). If delves have no decent - AND I MEAN REALLY DECENT - gear rewards the whole thing'll die in a weak. If you drop gear doing delves then it'll be fine.
I.E. Dungeons are the same repetitive content, but you "get payed" for time spent there. That's why people do dungeons.
The argument that Delves and Torghast get boring fast. Is a bit of a Fallacy. Torghast was just as boring as Castle Nathria or any other Raid or Dungeon. It is literally the same thing. A Piece of Instanced Content. The only difference, as far as them getting boring, between Island Expeditions, Torghast, Delves and M+, and Raids. Is that the latter two, are either experienced at a way slower pace, so get boring slower (Raids) or have a bunch of stuff that keeps changing (Mythic+ Affixes).
Island Expeditions flopped because they were the exact same thing with PvP tacked on. Making anyone outside of hardcore PvPers cringe. And the PvPers themselves still had BGs and Arenas to do, and not much time to spare for Expeditions. Which I dont even think gave any PvP specific rewards, in sufficient amounts to justify doing them over the normal PvP content.
Torghast flopped because blizzard in their infinite wisdom changed it from its Beta iteration Significantly upon the Launch of SL. And then tied the most important progression system (crafted-legendaries) of the expansion to them. Making it a Mandatory Grind. Which drove the life-expectancy of Torghast down through the earth into the pits of Hell. Since people HAD to do it way, way more often than anyone otherwise would. Which drastically accelerated the rate at which everyone got sick and tired of it.
Delves DO run the risk of falling into some of the same traps that Torghast did. But with the amount of them, and all of them being different to some extent, and then each having a variation, that they are all going to rotate through. And them not having anything relevant to an M+ and a Raid player beyond maybe cosmetics or the mount, means those players are far less likely to run every delve twenty billion times and be bored, though arguably those same people would be bored by the difficulty anyway. Leaving everyone else who is not for one reason or another a Dedicated M+er/Raider to do them. And frankly as someone who falls into that category. I am actually very hyped to finally have a piece of meaningful endgame content I can do that isnt a god damn World Quest, or a Slightly Fancier World Quest (DF World Events), while still having these things available as a Backup and or something you do inbetween the actual Fun Thing That Matters!
I actually love Torghast, espically the first week before they nerfed the enemies. The only thing I didn't like is espically week 1, you couldn't keep doing it if you wanted to climb, it almost felt like a system you needed bis to really dive into. There wasn't a good progression to it, and irrc you got a limited amount of soul ash you could get back than, so after a couple times a week there was no need to go back in. I think Delve's can fix this because you can keep going in and feel like your moving somewhere. the power in Delves seem kind boring espically in comparison to Torghast, though it will probably be nice not having the difficulty of the run be dependent on how lucky you can get with the random power pick-ups.
no supriise. Retail wow is an uncooked/bloated mess. No one should be shocked. It will be the same old thing. Hopefully the story improves but expect....hit max lvl with no challenge, gear up in dungeons/raids....min/max a toon and do M+ and spend $$$ in the shop. Give me a break. Hard pass. Blizzard is out of ideas/inspiration. It is the same old formula that wont bring in new players and they whip out a poop covered carrot for the long time WoW players. Enjoy. Yum.
I dont think you are wrong, i think if they do anything other than make it a new optional mode akin to mythic dungeon grinding (timegating grinds, mandate the new mode for story completion, oldschool flying, reputatuon, etc) than absolutely.
If it however is JUST a new optional mode that gets new layouts, locations, loot tables maybe not. I would personally enjoy being able to get BiS from a selective coop/solo option. My hope is that delves are what I WANTED torghast to be.
I personally cannot stand raiding/the wow communities obsession with rushing content, you always have to be the MOST efficent and be ready for the fastest runs.
Im more a stop a moment and listen kind of person. Constant min maxing makes me tired.
I think delves will be brining back alot of the old players that have tight schedules revolving around starting families. Personally since becoming a parent, the idea of going back into scheduled raiding and mythic + is an impossible concept. Being able to jump in casually for 30 minutes and bang out some Delves is the one thing brining me back.
I really wonder what the design team is thinking when designing such experiences, like ok, what's the goal here?
We want to design a piece of instanced solo content that players will want to do over and over without it getting too boring or repetitive, it can stay relevant and it can't be more rewarding than M+ or raiding in terms of gear.
There's so many ways to approach this, why not make different delves that also help in things other than gearing? For instance, you have a couple of delves that have a chance for a room that drops a lot of gold or farming nodes, you have a couple of delves where you need to beat x number of rooms and you pick rooms based on enemy type to hunt for specific cosmetics or to make it easier/harder for yourself and a couple where you pick based on the rewards you'll get from the next room, or there's puzzles before each room and if you don't solve them there's some weird twist, or one where there's "infinite" rooms but you can't heal and you're trying to reach certain levels to unlock some reward.
These are just off the top of my head, there's so much stuff you can do to make both gameplay and rewards interesting especially when you are trying to make content that might be helpful for things other than gearing up, I don't understand why blizzard is so opposed to or hasn't thought of creating new game loops around farming gold, resources or crafting.
Yeah, the inclusion of Torghast powers makes this feature dead in the water. Blizzard just doesn’t seem capable of producing fun content just letting us play our characters normally.
Island Expeditions (especially PVp) were better than Torghast and frankly look better than this
Delves are going to be something that is kind of relevant and “eh, they’re okay” for maybe the first couple of weeks of the very first patch of this next expac.
Then they will become immediately irrelevant and just more dead content that no one does seriously.
It is so stupid that so many resources and so much manpower has been wasted on this crap feature that is doomed to be irrelevant and unplayed after the first month.
It will go the way of Islands, Warfronts and Torghast. It will not be to solo queue answer to M+.
I wouldn’t even be mad if Blizzard just scrapped them outright and reallocated those resources to fixing some of the classes that don’t have a single viable hero talent tree (Rogue/Hunter)
This game is an ancient quarter-of-century outdated broken F2p game but somehow suckers are paying for it... And they expect things to get better. It's a shame. Metzen should have never returned. Making a project from scratch is a better idea than fixing this clusterpuck.
Question to people who want solo content? Have you heard of LEVELING? maybe WoW should stop making it's leveling absolute garbage? Maybe instead of designing it to be ignored to get to end game you design it so it actually good & challenging content???
I've run a few delves on Beta...its painfully boring and unappealing. As long as players are not forced to run delves (like we were with Choreghast for Legendaries), then I will likely never play the content. And thats so crappy.
customizing Bran's appearance would be dope i like that idea but I wish I could just bring one of my decked out ALTS as my companion instead xD
More casual players don't always have time for group content. Especially players that were there at the start of the game 20 odd years ago and have familes and lives outside of the game, but really want to get a fix when the kids are in bed or whatever. So single player content is good, you're paying monthly for content regardless if you're into group or questing and soloing.
to me delves are more like small instances. And btw, you can do them in a group. Instances are the same all expansion and people do them over and over and over again hunting for the specific item they need or the next upgrade to get the gear score up in all kinds of difficulties. So, because delves increase in difficulty I can totally see that catching me, wanting to master them as high as I can go. Definitely the mount is something I want to have. Finally some piece of content where keystone scumbags cannot mess up my game experience. I am fine with alts on a certain gear level knowing they wont reach higher. Thanks to warbands we can do the content on multiple chars, changing the experience of delves through spec variety as well. And the lack of differentiation between the runs at the same delve does not matter, after all it might help to increase in difficulty because some things stay as is while others change and get harder. Just like raids in LFR, which are the most basic boss fights, while heroic adds mechanics to them players have to deal with. Mythic dungeons never caught my attention, they might be fun but finding a group I can have fun with usually never happens more than two times in a row. So, people not having those networks or static groups they can play with get a neat piece of content they can enjoy at their own pace. They will also change every season. Delves will be great.
Delves will get boring super fast like they do in ESO but blizzard can take a page from ESO and do events surrounding those delves that drop unique gear or other items that would keep players engaged in delves.
I think one of the problems they have with this type of content and why it's not working is because the game is seasonal and things change patch to patch with the game like mythic plus affix's and the dungeons that are available for mythic plus per season but these 1 off modes like torgast and delves aren't getting the same treatment. You need to change those up as well if you want to keep them fresh. They are roguelikes and roguelikes are suppose to have replay-ability sure but if you don't change them or add new things they get old pretty quickly especially if you're grinding them a lot.
my problem with the its the same thing over and over, not replayable enough arguement is when you simplify anything in a game of course it seems dumb.
Raiding, You clear some trash, do a boss that you just learn the dance for and it becomes trivial
M+, you clear some mobs, do the boss, not get the loot you want repeat the same dungeons till end of season
pvp, fight the flavour of the month team comp/classes, lose if you arnt playing that, mirror match if you are
questing, go to npc fetch quest, go back to npc, kill quest, go back to npc
Almost everything we do in video games that is repetitive gets boring lol. Dungeons, raids, pvp, fishing, then irl work gets boring because it's repetitive and doesn't always change much. Delves will only be successful if the loot is worth it.
This is pretty bad feedback. Boiling torghast’s nuances down just “repeats content is boring” in an mmo where we literally replay the same content on weekly timers is just dumb. The dumbest take honestly.
Eh it’s ganna be irrelevant next expac. Biz should literally keep shit that they introduced that players like delves could be a good idea. Long term heck they could probably bring it to the old worlds so people revisit areas but you know biz will make this irrelevant next exp
I’m looking forward to turning Delves and Professions into a progression system for an army of characters.
I will probably not be bothered by the repetition since most of WoW is some sort of repetition anyway. It’s just a matter of what kind of repetition you enjoy.
I cant but laugh at all the comments saying Nixxiom is not right to comment on delves. Most of them come from antisocial people in wow who wished for wow solo mode like delves so they wont be forced to make a group or play to their chars highest potential. Wow is dying and i think this new generation wont be able to sustain it if we all veterans just unsub. Wich due to SoD the ripple effect already started. Welcome to the finish line for wow
So. What about gear? I mean. Something I've noticed from wow. Is that when some mechanic doesn't give end game gear it's left behind really fast. I mean there are reslly cool mechanics in the game that would do great if only it would help you keep up with the people that do raid and play with them.
geargeargeargeargeargear...
mate people spam the same 8 dungeons in m+ every season, so it aint about variety but progression, if they give scalable difficulty that give scalable gear people will do them cos wow is all about the ilvl number for almost everyone.
The thing we pretty learnt the last several years regarding WoW is that the team do not know how to innovate on any system the implemented pretty much, so expecting Delves to be fun and repayable was given that its not going to be, this looks exactly the same with different mobs than Torghast I do not see a situation that this feature will be fun to replay as Mythic+ is fun to replay.
downvoted for bait title
tbh raids and 5 man instances get boring really fast also....this whole game is boring
pvp actually lasts forever cuz you deal with real enemy's that hunt you. bliz really needs to make instances more alive where when you are detected the whole instance starts to hunt you , that would be fun lol
actually the islands with the ai players in bfa were kindov fun to hunt them lol
Sounds pretty okay, something I'll do if my PC is bugging out and I have to play Solo stuff but overall I feel like I'd get pretty lonely pretty fast doing this
I hate that they rely on this "AI GENERATED" half assed expereinces. Would be way nicer if it had an actual progression.
Spoiler alert - ⚠️ this next expansion's best features are talents and universal dragon riding, not delves.
The multiplayer aspect of the Game is imposible for US casuals, havent been able to stay in a Guild because all of them requiere daily logins and constant participation and Even if I could i don't want to feel tied to the Game, delves are perfect to me
People spam dungeons, what is the difference between delves and dungeons? is delves only normal difficulty and only good for lvling and useless at endgame? like many others say, i dont understand the complaint about it.
So delves are just the newest scenario, island expedition, mist of panda thunder island loot, and probably like 5 other things im forgetting too.
hmm i cant really chare your opinion on this one, the leading argument is that they may be to repetitive, what about regular dungeons? besides affixes and your 4 other mates they stay the same always.
Delves for me are gonna be a fine addition to our activities and as long the gameplay is fun i dont see it fail like torghast.
wow has not been known for " community" for the better part of a decade if not longer. this is the first time i have heard about this, legit first thing that has peaked my interest since cata.
last time i was excited was when they added "player housing" and it turned into what ever the fuck they called it. did not even buy that expansion.
I mean come on, if you can do 8 8dg, 1 raid and 13 delves, and you still need more stuff, you need to go play something else man, take a break, lay dwon a while, go to the gym, read a book, take a break pls.
This needed to be a lot more randomised for replay value and it needed to have the option to bring a member of your warband.
It has neither. This content will be dead in 2 months time and be added to Mount Obsolescence along with everything else they tried.
How is it being the same every time any different than dungeons? They're the same every time too. So are raids in fact.
Delves are simply dungeons for solo players. I like them so far.
to be fair they stated that they will be different every time you go into the same delve it does change, I did earthcrawlers and there are three version of that delve and they are different. they have not advertised it yet.. but they really need to power up branns healing abilities.. adn you have to the bountiful delves too so there are two different delves types the reg delves and the bountiful delves.. and they are in the great vault too and go up to heroic so that makes them more interesting.
Why do solo players want to get high end PvE gear if they don't do group content. Just go play Diablo or something similar instead.
This feature is dead to me since the very announcement. Unless they add some sick or kind-of-mandatory rewards, i think im skipping it completely
I got a question for you Nixxiom. Can you make a video about this? Can the world soul saga save world of Warcraft?
" I dont like solo content in an mmo" So quests should be removed? Dungeons and raids dont get boring? It is just another play mode. Torghast was a fail. but I liked island expeditions and scenarios. This feels more like those. I actually fear they try to make this into the new mythic plus content.
im not sure im subbing to this game ever again after i came back for bfa and shadowlands. wow is sooooooo bad now... i enjoyed only classic for a while. turtle wow obliterates it tho so even classic wasnt that good
I hope it's gonna be like single keys or something
It'be really fun for me :D
Ok... classic Andy
I predict delves will be a bit more loved than you expect. I know I'm going to love the solo content as my friend group is gone =/ and I just want to be casual with the game when I return.
Just going from the info from my friend group as we did TG often, the reasons we disliked Torghast was because of a few different reasons, not because of it feeling the same after a while. That same argument goes with M+ too and even raiding if you do it more than once or twice.
1. It was ugly and visually unpleasant to be inside after the first time.
2. No equipment dropped from the place and this killed the fun of progression, forcing us to do content I did not want to do (M+), for gear just so I could do more TG.
3. The combat was not that fun, once you progressed a good ways into TG you die instantly, CC felt horrible, traps sucked, and it felt like a slog.
4. You had to do it.
5. Outside of a few items even the cosmetics there kinda sucked, and where themed in a way most people would not even want them.
6. The whole timer thing and needing to be quick to score high also sucked, you could not do things at your own pace.
I feel like Delves could be big, but they will need to continuously work on them of course. I'm going to have some hope for the system.
when we get only 3 raids that never change, i dont understand complaining about 13 mini-dungeons that have minor randomization
delves are an illusion to string along solo world quest people delves only give up to m+6 loot and they dont count toward your io score.
no real m+ player would care to do delves.
What I think would be cool is the companions being your other characters in your warband.