I find it cheaper to replace the clutch than replacing a transmission that cost almost what a used tractor goes for. Also, I've noticed gear drive trans are much better for heavy work and can last a lifetime if properly maintained.
Gear drive is stronger than hydrostatic no matter which range you compare them in. Hydraulic power is not giving direct power to the wheels like a gear will. Hydro is more convenient but gear is stronger. This test is a very valid test and isn’t stupid at all. If you want the conveniences of hydro your going to lose some pulling power but many folks don’t need to pull a lot with a small tractor. That’s why we have options, what works well for one may not for another. There are pros and cons to both drive systems. That’s my opinion, feel free to disagree
@@turbodiesel8651 isn't that kind of a generalization? The miracle of hydraulics us that a hydraulic systen actually _does_ put power from the pump directly to the motor that turns a wheel, with less loss of energy than with a standard drivetrain. In application, you are replacing the drive shaft, awkward u-joints and etc. The pulling power of the vehicle is limited, ultimately, by the quantity of hydraulic fluid it can carry and keep cool. If it were practical to load up the little Kubota with 60 gallons of hydraulic fluid and a couple of coolers, a powerful axial piston pump could be used to drive the wheels and multiple accessories to out perform the gear drive tractor, while still using the same fossils fuel engine. All that said, since about 2005, ive thought hydraulic drive systems to be the wrong direction. Hydraulic systens are expensive, and it is the nature of liquid to seek more efficient means of travel than that you've selected for it. In other words, they break and are messy polluters. Far better to use a mechanical drivetrain and put your money into researching electric power. The electric tractor is the future. As for me, I've got a couple of tractors, and both are gear drive and run on fossil fuels.
That was surprising. I have a hydrostatic transmission tractor and got it that way because my property is very hilly and uneven. The hydro transmission made it alot easier to drive around and do work. Now 15 years later I started doing open field mowing and quickly learned the value of a geared tractor.
@@brandtwebber5761 they can both pull the same load up until the tires break loose. He should have tested to that point and there would not have been a difference. The tires are the limiting factor.
You should have done this test on dry pavement or concrete. There is no consistency with grass. The minute you drive over it the traction factor changes. Once a tire spins even the slightest the tire and grass is slippery. Using "clean" dry pavement or concrete with the same air pressure in the tires of both tractors would give a much better apples to apples traction comparison. Regardless, a gear drive tractor will drag around a HST tractor any day.
The hydro didn't spin. The gear did. So the gear tractor was at a disadvantage. I've felt the hydro really struggle when pushing a tree. So this test makes sense... and making me thing about my next tractor which i already ordered as hydro. I do like the hydro for brush hogging and loader work. I guess tree crap is once and done.
You'll hear that in the Std. L and MX series. Step up to a Grand L 60 or an older Grand L 40 series and virtually no whine. I don't know how they managed to quieten down the Grand L's like the way they did but they did.
It won't. The power loss through a hydro system is ever present. A manual, geared system is positive lockup. No power loss. On the hydro drive units there were too many checks on the don't like side of the list when I was looking for a tractor. Power loss was a biggie but that infernal obnoxious high pitched whine was the deal breaker. I was looking for a compact and found a 4wd B2320 with fel that had 71 hours, less than 2 years old for less than half the new price. I only have one complaint, and that is the valve type 3pt system instead of the pick a point that older/other tractors have. But that was just a matter of readjusting the driver(me) lol. Once I figured out how to use it, it was as easy as the old Deutz that my grandfather had that all of us learned to operate. And with the on fender shift/lift/control arrangement that little tractor is sweet to run. I couldn't be happier with it.
@@TheBrushcutter it will, regardless of power loss because the weight and grip of the tractors won't allow even half power to be transmitted to the ground. The tires would slip. This pull off should have been done in the lowest range. It baffles me how he said that he wanted to limit wheel spinning, but the hydro isn't even capable of spinning in high range.
GREGG G DUETZ! Have one with no brakes. It’s a scary ride on a hill! Stays hooked to a 15’ bush hog. If it gets to going a little fast just drop it all the way down and it will stop eventually 😂.
@@TheBrushcutter Power loss is irrelevant in a test like this. The tires can only transmit so much power to the ground. Once you exceed that limit, the tires slip. As long as the HST has enough power to slip the tires in medium or low range, it would offer the exact same pull number on the scale because at that point the limit is the tires, not the amount of power being delivered by the engine or transmission.
I own a gear drive L3901 and love it. Great pulling power. I have a single bottom moldboard plow that it pulls easily, and when i had a 40' high cube storage container delivered the driver asked me if i would drag it off the trailer with my tractor. I didn't think it would, but he was confident. he ended up being right.
I'm glad I watched this video my kubota dealer near me told me kubota doesn't make a gear driven transmission no more because of safety reasons. I'm in Michigan I just may have to go to your guys place and get a 50hp gear shift from you guys. Thank you for the video.
they do to make gear drives!!! go under kubota usa and you will find. shoot even my dealer chilli impalament in chill wi sells gear drive and hydro kubotas.
@alexlindekugel8727 about a year after i posted this i bought a massey Ferguson industrial 40 it had not had a backhoe digger on it just a 3 point so i never looked again for a new tractor but year the kubota dealership by my must have not wanted to order a gear driven or the salesman was misinformed or both.
I am fortunate to have a L3200 gear drive tractor for discing and bush hog mowing. And a B2301 loader tractor. I prefer the gear drive because of it's ability to work at a set speed while working on food plot's and mowing my 2 miles of trails. But a hydro-static is a much better loader tractor, almost instant direction changes. So you need both! Thanks for the video.
I'd like to see you try in the other 2 ranges of the HST and make more of a fair comparison. I feel hydrostatic has both more pull with more tractive effort at the same time. It didn't take much for the gear drive to break the wheels loose and still pull high numbers.
@@russianacorns8080 our tc33d with hydro is nice but I think it looses a lot of powder through the transmission, with a shuttle shift you can put it in gear and let the clutch out and use the shuttle to take off and save the clutch wear
@@cargotoolshop5319 yeah, I’m replying because no one understands that it would be pointless to do it in low because then it’s a test of tires not transmissions.
@@russianacorns8080 This test *is* a test of the tires, not the transmission. On the geared test he switched to a lower gear and slipped the tires. So he should have done the same thing on the HST. Once the tires are slipping, regardless of transmission, that's it. A geared transmission with slipping tires will pull just as hard as an HST which is slipping, and you can switch either one to a lower gear to achieve that result.
Would have liked to see the HST in low range and in 4WD so it breaks the tires loose like you did the gear drive. If the gear drive has 300% more pulling power over HST, then all salesmen should mention that when selling a tractor.
@Robert Black1911 You missed the point. Both tractors were in 4WD and High range exactly to point out that a gear tractor pulls a lot more while the HST can't even spin the wheels and is a noise maker.
Agreed. If you're hooking to a load with a HST, you're in low, not high. I'd be really curious about the peak numbers there. No question to me that if you're pulling/ground engaging almost all of the time a gear is better, but this vid gives the impression that HST can't pull even half of what a gear will.
@@javabean215 Their high end gear ratio is the same between them both. That's why he had them both In high to give them the same load and see which one is more efficient at transferring the power to the ground. if you put them in low without downward pressure they both will just spin
BUMMER!! I was looking forward to a tug of war at the end!! Totally expected the gear drive to win having used both types of tractors. Anyone who’s ever tried to pull a stump out or climb a steep hill or even do tillage chores has experienced this. Can’t beat a HST for loader work or any other back and forth task, though. They both have their place.
Not when you compare it to the gear in low and 4x4. Just look at hp to drawbar and PTO numbers! You lose ho to the HST drive, same engine HP will always be an orange to tangerine type comparison.
More like 3hp in these 25 or 30 ish hp machines it makes difference plus you don't have the god awful hst whine and need for high rpm to do any work gear is more efficient and powerful every time
@@highlanderc keep dreaming! Check the hp difference from engine to PTO on gear vs hst. There is always a greater loss in hst. Where does that hp go? HST! That means there is less to go to traction! Not to mention the need for rpm’s and foot fatigue. Bottom line there are few places the hst wins very few.
Seemed like with the gear drive he let it jerk on the meter using nearly the full weight of the tractor on the bounce. Idk, just didn't seem like a fair test without bouncing the hst too.
Thanks, Neil - you've answered (part of) a question I've pondered: "How low is the lowest HST equivalent reduction?" The HST is, philosophically, a fluid-coupled directly- engaging transmission (adjustable constant-volume pump on the input side, constant volume hydraulic motor on the output, fluid is practically incompressible, hence hydroSTATIC, completely unlike the torque converter in a car). At least until the pressure compensator/regulator and then eventually the pressure relief valve steps in to save the day. :-) It's a CVT that uses fluid instead of belts. But... there's a bypass valve in there so it will have a "neutral" when the pedal isn't pressed either way. I've wondered what the equivalent "gear ratio" is when that valve closes and it starts being a transmission. Now we know it's roughly 1/3 as much reduction as a gear drive will give in 1st gear. Thanks! This almost certainly explains provisioning the three-range axle as opposed to the dual-range, too.
Excelent explanation Erick. Could not have said it better myself in high-tech terms. In laymans terms; hydrostatic = = slip-o-matic:: with half of the transmision missing. Hydro's great for rapid back and forth and best at howling,wyning, frequent expensive fluid &filter changes, but best at burning fuel. Shuttle good, relieable,cheep and great at putting power down. And the best of both worlds; The hydralic-power-shuttle. Hands down the clear winner;; if you can afford them and in your right size. Fortunate to have all 3. Great comment for the "tractor gang". Thanks for information.
Good video, and I love my gear drive l4400, but I think the test was a little flawed. When the gear drive started going on the first test, it was jerking around and had time to build a tiny bit of momentum. That momentum could lead to a shock value that reads higher than the actual pulling force. I think this is why the values were much closer on the second test in hi-4. Also, hi-1 would be much more similar to the medium range in the HST model if it is anything like my l4400. In it, lo-4 gives a top speed of 4.2mph, and hi-1 gives a top speed of 4.4mph, meaning they are very similar to each other in final ratios. Considering my gear drive has a top speed in hi-4 of 14.9mph, that means both of those gears are in the bottom 1/3(both less than 30% of the overall top speed/tallest gearing). Either way, keep up the videos. There has been a lot of very entertaining and also educational information, and I think we all appreciate it.
I havea L3800 gea`r but for your comment on second time closer? Hell He was in 4th low. You have a gear unit and know low in 1st pull pull your head off.
I have limited experience on a gear drive, but lots on a hydro, I use my tractor in high to get around the property, but as soon as the bucket or any implement gets used it's in low, I never use high for work, my tractor doesn't even like to pull the box blade in high, but it will drag it in low with a mound of dirt and still can push dirt with the bucket.
Could ya redo the test both in Lowest possible gear and 4 wheel drive and diff locked (max pull) (and on a service that is less slippy if possible - hard dirt or pavement)
Thanks Neal. That was pretty interesting. I am not super mechanical, but I don't work my tractor in high gear. Maybe do the test again but in low, and on a more consistent surface? Grass is a wild card, I think. I'd like to see that. Thanks!
Great video Messick's. I think this needed to be done. I love how all the HST owners are saying this was an "unfair" test. Gear drive tractors will out pull an equivalent HST all day long. Full Stop. The fact that all high horse power tractors are gear drives should tell you something. HST is a convenience but there is a price to be paid for that convenience.
You need to try them both in the lowest gear they have for a fair comparison. Surely the hydro will pull a lot more than 1100lbs. You probably couldn't even use a turn plow if it won't.
The test wasn't for "the lowest gear" and no one is saying the hydro won't pull more than 1100lbs either. The test is simply to let all you pro-hydro home owners know that the GST will drag your HST around the yard all day long. But you boys don't need it for plowing a field, you only need it for plowing your driveways so doesn't matter right?
@@bonedancer3973 I didn't buy my tractor to be a big time farmer. I plant about 10 acres of deer plots and use it for landscaping, moving dirt, gravel etc. I will work circles around a gear shift tractor doing my landscaping spreading work especially in tight quarters. All in what you need them for. I was pointing out it was a skewed test to favor the geared tractor.
Yea who in there right mind would not try lower range in hydro. I have seen same tractors apples to apples comparison and the only difference was one was hydro and the other gear drive hooked up in tug of war and they just both set there and spin.
After having many John Deere and Kubota garden and compacts over 40 years the significant power loss thru the hydo stat was always a trade off for ease of operation. 60 & 70's riding mowers started off with only 5hp engines but were gear drive and did a decent job.
Most folk today don't really use ground engaging equipment much. Gardens used to utilize a plow and disc harrow. Now they use a PTO tiller. The gear will have more available HP to the PTO than a hydro. A box blade or a land plane use gets back to traction issues more than power issues. For the vast majority of folk hydrostat will continue to be the transmission of choice even though the cost is higher. Thanks for the videos Neil. I appreciate them.
Theoretically both tractors spinning the tires with the same weight and grip will pull the exact same. The hydro never broke traction because it was in high range, there is no equivalent to the gear drives 1st gear even in high range. Friction dictates pulling power, the hst was in a range that could not produce the torque required to defeat the friction. This test should have been done in the correct range for both tractors individually. Same weight and HP with the same tires should require the exact same torque to break loose the wheels this is simply a difference in power curves not capabilities.
You might have said and I missed it, but are the rear tires ballasted in either machine? Found my L3130 gear drive pulled a lot harder after I refilled the beet juice in both tires (leaky valve stem).
l2501 with gear drive has a transmission powered pto, which means when you push the clutch in to change direction the pto shuts off, which is less then ideal when bush hogging.
I’ve always had a suspicion that gear drives pull a lot harder just because of old farmall tractors I used to play with. They were only 20-30hp but will literally flip themselves trying to pull if theres traction. You gotta be ready for that. I guess there is a clutch slip issue but the gearing is so low your not frying those clutch plates. My opinion, hydro is convenient but you do lose significant power to the ground in small tractors.
It may not put down the same numbers on a load cell, but the ability of a hydro to infinitely adjust the power output allows you to better control wheelspin. I have used dozens of different tractors and wheel spin is always the limiting factor on your ability to pull. Gear tractors shine when you're pulling a heavy steady load, like ground engaging implements. The hydro will run circles around any gear tractor doing loader work. Different options for different tasks.
So which new tractor would you like to buy? The one with the burnt clutch or the one with the abused hydro. I'm not buying a L3901 from Messick's anytime soon. LOL
I may be stupid, but why didn't the HST ever spin the wheels like the manual did? I would have pushed the HST to the point of spinning the wheels for a more realistic comparison.
Doesn't really matter much, since you'd be in low to do any work like this. In that case, either tractor is more than capable of spinning all 4 tires, so they both end up having the same pulling power. The advantage here goes to the HST since you don't have to stop and shift gears, you can just keep building up speed depending on what you're pulling.
I run an MX5200, HST, BB2572 Box Blade, about 8 to 10 hrs a day. For me, grading BOC, and general fine grade work, the HST is the deal! I'm on my 8th different tractor at my job, site work, road base crew work. I started with a 5100, 2572 box. Had 3 or 4 of those, I've put 3000 hours on one of those, and the only problem encountered, was the bushings on the speed control pedal, @1800 hrs. My ultimate favorite, is the MX5200, with a BB3578 box, water in the rear tires, and that's it. Ultimate fine grade weapon. Enjoy your vids, live life, 6 ft. At a time! #Tractortrash
My neighbour had a 24 HP HST tractor. I had a 20 HP shuttle shift. Mine would pull a cord of wood in my trailer up my back mountain with ease, although slowly in 3/12 gear. The bigger HP HST in low range would bog out and stop barely into the hill. Varying the throttle made no difference. I've been told by dealers that HST sacrifices 30% of your HP. So 50% loss in the HST seems like good math in my example.
The reason for the higher gear drive numbers is due to the shock load. The first geared pulled there was a very hard shock load, the second pull had a shock load as well, but not as pronounced.
My 1992 1920 shuttle shift Ford would out pull either of my Kubota 5030 or 5740 HSTC. I hooked a root while plowing a neighbors garden and the 1920 broke one of the 7/8 hitch pins. One of the best tractors I’ve owned.
That was fascinating. Despite the results, I’ll stay with my HST. As a novice whose work doesn’t regularly involve ground-engaging equipment, e.g., plows, disks, I love the HST’s ease of operation.
@First Choice Mechanical remember we are talking about little tractors, not heavy equipment or large tractors, I have used both and I prefer a manual transmission only if it has a shuttle shift, I know that hydro tranny's are great and all, bit again we are talking about budget tractors, not high end fancy stuff that the boss is paying for, but a at home cheaper the better little tractor, if you save some cash and it takes a little bit longer to get your work done, that's what I would do, but I'm old school, stay strong
@firstchoicemechanical1403 Because hydrostats change directions and speed quickly and effortlessly without any shifting, and are better for loader work like on a skid steer. Excavators already have a massive hydraulic pump to run that boom and stick, so it just makes sense to run the tracks with that as well. A gear drive tractor is better to run a 15' batwing mower in one direction all day without overheating, and none of the heavy tractors are hydrostat as far as I know, although some large tractors have electric drives.
I’ve had an old gear-driven Ford which pulled like a beast and I now have a Kubota B2650 that pulls hard too, but probably not quite as hard as the Ford. And I wouldn’t go back for anything. The HST is sufficient for pulling and MUCH better for any kind of loader work or even brush hogging.
People it was done in the grass due to that being where the load cell is buried. Its not birried on his parking lot where people can damage it/it be in the way. Also he did the test in high to try and keep from spinning the tires/overloading that load cell. In low gear the gear drive would most likly max out the load cell. The hst would probably be in the upper limits. Is it truly scientific? Well no but its also something to consider.
I love how Unbiased your channell is. Keep it up. I went with the L2501 HST as I use the loader alot. I just have to get used to the Whiney noise the HST's make. Take care.
how is it unbiased. he is a salesman that hamstrung one tractor to get a result he wanted for views. he probably has a ton of gear drive he wants to offload so lets make a video...
@jetthelooter I posted that 4 years ago. I bought the HST and let me tell you I'm glad I did. Had 0 issues and it was a great tractor. I juat sold it a week ago and bought a Kubota L3560 as I needed a cab and more lift capacity. My HST tractor sold within a week of posting it for sale. There are probably 10 gear drives with less hours and 4k cheaper in my same area that have been listed for months and are not selling. Hat is not only better imo but the resale on them is for superior from my experience. You will get every dollar back when you go to sell. Juat my w cents.
Also.. We had Small Tractors with Gear drives pulling 110 000 lbs of paper at the Port doing long shore man work... Those tractors had over 23000 hours before they needed clutch replacements. Shuttle shift is a bonus. Nothing beats on a tractor worse then Long Shore man pulling 16 rolls of industrial size paper rolls along with it's trailer.
Could you do a comparison between a B2401 DT and a B2601 HST? I'm leaning heavily towards the B2401 for flail mowing slopes and some light logging of diseased trees that are starting to come down. Thanks!
I have a MX5200 HST and I would have liked to seen the comparison in low on both and like others suggested, maybe do this on pavement instead of grass.
this video is pretty old but I had to chime in - for the hydrostatic machine you pushed the pedal to the floor, they actually pull harder on a standstill load with the accelerator pushed only slightly, generally speaking
Great video Neil.. where a hydro really shines is when your doing fine detailed work or loader work.. it’s not very enjoyable moving buckets of material all day long with a clutch on your left foot.. you’ll realize your left leg will start to be in quite a lot of pain after an 8 hour shift and the level of precision with the loader/bucket is not nearly as good.. but a good operator can easily overcome these obstacles with a gear driven tractor and if your anything like me you may even prefer to use gear driven over a hydro most of the time. Surprised I missed this one 👍🏻
From what I’m understanding the hydrostat transmission if something blows or breaks and it would be way more expensive to replace than the clutch. And the gear drive sounds better and can pull more?
I live in Thailand and am looking at buying the Kubota L5018. It is only offered with HST (Hydrostatic Transmission) so no choice. I would probably take manual gears if I had a choice.
So all things pretty even the gear is stronger than the hst? But the hst is easy and cheaper to repair? So I should go with hst and buy more hp. Is that a logical solution? I'll pay more up front but would save on repairs down the road maybe.
Changing the subject a little. Close to 45 year's ago I worked for a sawmill man and he owned an old 1965 Sox & Martin backup Barracuda Super Stock drag car which had a 4 speed in it. Once in awhile he'd get beat by an automatic hemi car but that was rare. The stripes paid him to show up because that car was a real wheel stander. He would chuckle a little and say those automatic boys had a hard time with ol red as he referred to his pride and joy. I like automatics now that I'm older but used to standard is all I would own. Got a farm truck and pickup with standard but after selling the farm I sold the Minneapolis Moline G950 and now am like many do are trying to figure out which compact or even subcompact I'm going to get to use on my mainly wooded little 20 acre place. GP Outdoors has pretty much sold me ot that little B2601. Sorry for long rambling post but I guess my trigger, aw I mean typing finger got happy.
What does a wet sump clutch have to do with either the gear drive or HST tractors in this video? Neither have a wet sump clutch. The gear drive tractor has a dry clutch and the HST is...well, an HST. It uses a pump and fluid coupling system.
First off easy win for gear drive because the HST wouldn’t let the tires dig/ spin. Basic tractor pulling right there, no spin no power output. You don’t buy a HST for pulling power, your not going to go plow with it, it’s for ease of use, gears drive is just better for pulling regardless of high or low range
If you didn't break the wheels loose you didn't record the max torque. All the gear reductions/ratios only go into putting torque to the wheels. I would expect no difference on grass. Now if you could stall the engines at the lowest setting without wheel slip then the gear drive would do better simply because you aren't dissipating energy in the form of heat like the HST does.
I love your videos by the way. I am an engineer for a diesel engine manufacturer. I did performance engineering, after treatment engineering, and now field service engineering. If you ever want to run a test idea by me please send me an email. If so I'll send an email to your work email, just let me know in the comments.
Any one who uses one of today’s modern ultra lite utility tractors realizes that the type of transmission is not the limiting factor while pulling but a lack Of traction
@@javery50 not really, anyone who has tried pulling a 7 foot haybine knows that traction is the least of your concern, try pulling one with a hst tractor, first time you try going up a hill you’re done. If the haybine takes 30 horse to drive and the tractor takes 20 horse to pull itself up a hill and you only have 40 you’re done, but if the same tractor with a gear trans takes 10 horse to go up the hill you’re in business.
Great video! It really doesn't matter if the gear drive out pulls the hydro IF you can't get traction! I had a 20 hp John Deere lawn mower (430) and when using the full 20hp, I simply spun, not accomplishing any work at all!
Exactly which is why torque converters have a clutch that locks up in automatic transmissions. Fluid couplers are great for stop and go. But once your moving mechanical is superior.
This is not true either. An automatic will beat a manual transmission in many tests. The best off road crawlers use autos. The hydro in this test isn't capable of performing a pulling test in high. This test video was worthless. Not to mention torque converters have enourmous mechanical advantages over gears. 2 to 1 in many cases.
@@highlanderc while you may have had an issue, I cannot be convinced of any such issue when the test in the video was performed in gears other than low. My tractor will spin the tires all day long in low. Are you saying yours stalls out when trying to pull stumps? There are bulldozers that run hydrostatic transmissions.
Anymanusa yes. Mine stalled just like this video in low of course when trying to push a tiny stump. I wonder if there are mods for the hydro transmissions to make it work like a dozer that you mention!
Neil could you do that same test in low range for both tractors. Love your informational videos. You really have taught me a lot as a new tractor owner.
Love my Kubota b7500 hydro and my Kubota g1800 hydro. Gear drive and hydro have there place but you have to look at the big picture. there are more and more Equipment being built with hydro transmissions from mowers to farm tractors to bulldozer's. I personally like the infinitely variable speed range from zero to top speed, just can't get that with a manual transmission.
Hi, Neal. Cool video. I have a question. I have a 2018 BX2680 and have a blown fuse. I found the fuse box, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get the cover off. I've tried moving the clip on the bottom of the box both up and down and nothing works. Can you help me out, please? Thanks!
I always have thought that to get MAX Pull or Push you want the Lowest gear available. I would use Low gear (1st), Low range either way. Where is my error? If tires break traction add weight to the axle that slips until neither axle slips and you then have Max Traction. Creeper Gear at Max traction puts Max Power to the ground. That's all she wrote and why we spend the Big Bucks for 4WD. sdh in CT
I have a question, the hydrostatic drive uses a type of oil to run the motors for the wheel right? Oil is uncompressable so is it possible to generate close to infinite torque in a perfect world? Or are there hard limits exluding stuff like your low and high range gears of course. Greetings from belgium
Got a questions. A problem has arisen on my 2016 L2501 with 300 hours. I pulled the lever into 4x4 (it was difficult but I managed) and to my knowledge 4x4 has worked up until today. The lever is stuck in 4x4 position yet is 100% in 2WD. Any thought. I looked under the tractor and everything seemed normal
The old “Manual vs. Automatic” debate. Modern automatic transmissions are able to out perform human performance with shifting in cars and trucks, but the manual gives you the ultimate control and the solid mechanical connection. No replacing that. Very good video.
My question is, which transmission is going to last longer. Splitting the tractor and throwing a new clutch in is no biggie for me. I had a b2400 that had the hst go out in it and even as old as it is, its still 1700usd for a new hst unit and that's me doing the work.
I have a L3130 gear shift 31 hp and a L4740hstc 47 hp with a hydro trans and a cab and i think the l3130 will pull a lot more than the larger tractor with the hydro trans but for moving snow there is no comparison in using the hst for loading and stacking snowbanks
Fluid is a very inefficient means of transmission at near 0 rpm. I recently converted an old Sears Suburban garden tractor to battery electric power. After easily towing a 3000lb camper around my yard, I did a drawbar test and at 1143lbs the front end came up with 300lbs on the front axle. The atv tires more than doubled the turf tire result of 500lbs.
Hi Neil, these comparison videos are some of the most interesting content you put out there. Thanks so much for doing this. I would love to see you do a comparison video on turning radius. That number isn't always clear since Kubota's printed specs often assume wheel braking. I think comparing the BX, B2601, B2650 (or LX2610) would be great, maybe some L's too if you're into that.
I had no idea the gear drive would perform that much better...kinda leaning towards the gear drive now due to "pulling power" being a huge requirement for me.
Exactly what I've known for years. The gear drive advantage is great when pulling and also when pulling constantly at high rpm the heat is handled more efficiently by square cut gears and shafts. The hydro units don't handle the heat nearly as good.
Liquid in tires and pressure difference can make a difference. Makes me ponder wether the SST had liquid filled rear tires, at a lower pressure. Or the rear interlock was used on the SST over the HYD. Other then that, I know a HYD loses a ton of grunt in hi range. . not suprised by the large advantage of the SST over the HYD. 0.01c
So i just got the little B2401dt and noticed immediately it has way more pushing and pulling power than the b2601. However the b2601 is much simpler to use for loader work. Don't get me wrong you can obviously use a loader on the geardrives but the constant clunking around of the gears is very tiresome. Also the unsynchronized gears are hard to engage, double clutching is sometimes needed.
I have to say. This man is very honest. He gives you the truth instead of the marketing pamphlet.
You realize all he is doing here is marketing....?
I find it cheaper to replace the clutch than replacing a transmission that cost almost what a used tractor goes for. Also, I've noticed gear drive trans are much better for heavy work and can last a lifetime if properly maintained.
Doing this test in high range on the hst seems pointless the high range is for driving on the road. Medium or low would be much more interesting
it couldn't be any more stupid to test it in high.. need to test low range against 1st gear....... stupid test comparison.
Agreed.
But having a HST they don’t have any power in any of the three ranges. L3830
My thoughts exactly. What's the purpose of this video really? Is Messick's overstocked with a whole lot of gear drive tractors?
Gear drive is stronger than hydrostatic no matter which range you compare them in. Hydraulic power is not giving direct power to the wheels like a gear will. Hydro is more convenient but gear is stronger. This test is a very valid test and isn’t stupid at all. If you want the conveniences of hydro your going to lose some pulling power but many folks don’t need to pull a lot with a small tractor. That’s why we have options, what works well for one may not for another. There are pros and cons to both drive systems. That’s my opinion, feel free to disagree
@@turbodiesel8651 isn't that kind of a generalization? The miracle of hydraulics us that a hydraulic systen actually _does_ put power from the pump directly to the motor that turns a wheel, with less loss of energy than with a standard drivetrain. In application, you are replacing the drive shaft, awkward u-joints and etc. The pulling power of the vehicle is limited, ultimately, by the quantity of hydraulic fluid it can carry and keep cool. If it were practical to load up the little Kubota with 60 gallons of hydraulic fluid and a couple of coolers, a powerful axial piston pump could be used to drive the wheels and multiple accessories to out perform the gear drive tractor, while still using the same fossils fuel engine.
All that said, since about 2005, ive thought hydraulic drive systems to be the wrong direction. Hydraulic systens are expensive, and it is the nature of liquid to seek more efficient means of travel than that you've selected for it. In other words, they break and are messy polluters. Far better to use a mechanical drivetrain and put your money into researching electric power. The electric tractor is the future.
As for me, I've got a couple of tractors, and both are gear drive and run on fossil fuels.
That was surprising. I have a hydrostatic transmission tractor and got it that way because my property is very hilly and uneven. The hydro transmission made it alot easier to drive around and do work. Now 15 years later I started doing open field mowing and quickly learned the value of a geared tractor.
Uhh... where's the rest of the video, where you put the HST in low range???
All he’d do is spin the tires, that’s why the test was done in high.
Once you spin it's over in my experience. In a hydro machine you shouldn't.
@@brandtwebber5761 they can both pull the same load up until the tires break loose. He should have tested to that point and there would not have been a difference. The tires are the limiting factor.
Unnecessary
You should have done this test on dry pavement or concrete. There is no consistency with grass. The minute you drive over it the traction factor changes. Once a tire spins even the slightest the tire and grass is slippery. Using "clean" dry pavement or concrete with the same air pressure in the tires of both tractors would give a much better apples to apples traction comparison. Regardless, a gear drive tractor will drag around a HST tractor any day.
You test a car on pavement The tractor is meant to work and off road conditions not on pavement.
The test was to show pulling force .not working capability.the tires and ground conditions have to many variables to accurate pulling force
should have done the test with chains wrapped around the tires and anchored to the ground... either tractor in low will simply dig in
I only watched a couple minutes, and was thinking the same thing.
The hydro didn't spin. The gear did. So the gear tractor was at a disadvantage. I've felt the hydro really struggle when pushing a tree. So this test makes sense... and making me thing about my next tractor which i already ordered as hydro. I do like the hydro for brush hogging and loader work. I guess tree crap is once and done.
That high pitch whine drives me crazy on hst.
I use earplugs on tractor anyway
yes I agree... BUT their better for loader and dirt work. I have a L3800 HST. don't like the wine
You'll hear that in the Std. L and MX series. Step up to a Grand L 60 or an older Grand L 40 series and virtually no whine. I don't know how they managed to quieten down the Grand L's like the way they did but they did.
My experience with my kioti tractor is there’s only a high-pitched whine and high range if I’m in four-wheel-drive
Did you put the HST in four-wheel-drive?
Please try the hydro in medium or low range. I'm curious to see if it catches the gear drive at some point?
It won't. The power loss through a hydro system is ever present. A manual, geared system is positive lockup. No power loss. On the hydro drive units there were too many checks on the don't like side of the list when I was looking for a tractor. Power loss was a biggie but that infernal obnoxious high pitched whine was the deal breaker. I was looking for a compact and found a 4wd B2320 with fel that had 71 hours, less than 2 years old for less than half the new price. I only have one complaint, and that is the valve type 3pt system instead of the pick a point that older/other tractors have. But that was just a matter of readjusting the driver(me) lol. Once I figured out how to use it, it was as easy as the old Deutz that my grandfather had that all of us learned to operate. And with the on fender shift/lift/control arrangement that little tractor is sweet to run. I couldn't be happier with it.
@@TheBrushcutter it will, regardless of power loss because the weight and grip of the tractors won't allow even half power to be transmitted to the ground. The tires would slip. This pull off should have been done in the lowest range. It baffles me how he said that he wanted to limit wheel spinning, but the hydro isn't even capable of spinning in high range.
GREGG G DUETZ! Have one with no brakes. It’s a scary ride on a hill! Stays hooked to a 15’ bush hog. If it gets to going a little fast just drop it all the way down and it will stop eventually 😂.
@@anymanusa no way. That's why you saw the gear drive smoke it in high gear.
@@TheBrushcutter Power loss is irrelevant in a test like this. The tires can only transmit so much power to the ground. Once you exceed that limit, the tires slip. As long as the HST has enough power to slip the tires in medium or low range, it would offer the exact same pull number on the scale because at that point the limit is the tires, not the amount of power being delivered by the engine or transmission.
I own a gear drive L3901 and love it. Great pulling power. I have a single bottom moldboard plow that it pulls easily, and when i had a 40' high cube storage container delivered the driver asked me if i would drag it off the trailer with my tractor. I didn't think it would, but he was confident. he ended up being right.
I'm glad I watched this video my kubota dealer near me told me kubota doesn't make a gear driven transmission no more because of safety reasons. I'm in Michigan I just may have to go to your guys place and get a 50hp gear shift from you guys. Thank you for the video.
they do to make gear drives!!! go under kubota usa and you will find. shoot even my dealer chilli impalament in chill wi sells gear drive and hydro kubotas.
@alexlindekugel8727 about a year after i posted this i bought a massey Ferguson industrial 40 it had not had a backhoe digger on it just a 3 point so i never looked again for a new tractor but year the kubota dealership by my must have not wanted to order a gear driven or the salesman was misinformed or both.
I am fortunate to have a L3200 gear drive tractor for discing and bush hog mowing. And a B2301 loader tractor. I prefer the gear drive because of it's ability to work at a set speed while working on food plot's and mowing my 2 miles of trails. But a hydro-static is a much better loader tractor, almost instant direction changes. So you need both! Thanks for the video.
Or get a shuttle I think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, no torque loss, no whine, plus instant direction change.
Yes wish there was a shuttle option, Be awesome if u could get the GST transmission on this size tractor
I'd like to see you try in the other 2 ranges of the HST and make more of a fair comparison. I feel hydrostatic has both more pull with more tractive effort at the same time. It didn't take much for the gear drive to break the wheels loose and still pull high numbers.
yeah in the same tracks as the hydro. If anything the the hydro had handy cap over the gear and still lost by a mile.
Μ = f÷N is all that matters. If both tractors can break loose the tires they will pull the exact same. Use the appropriate gear/range.
Would like to see what the hydro would do in low range.
Spin the tires, I have a hst new Holland and it will spin all 4 on dry pasture in medium or low at an idle
@@russianacorns8080 our tc33d with hydro is nice but I think it looses a lot of powder through the transmission, with a shuttle shift you can put it in gear and let the clutch out and use the shuttle to take off and save the clutch wear
@@cargotoolshop5319 yeah, I’m replying because no one understands that it would be pointless to do it in low because then it’s a test of tires not transmissions.
@@russianacorns8080 This test *is* a test of the tires, not the transmission. On the geared test he switched to a lower gear and slipped the tires. So he should have done the same thing on the HST. Once the tires are slipping, regardless of transmission, that's it. A geared transmission with slipping tires will pull just as hard as an HST which is slipping, and you can switch either one to a lower gear to achieve that result.
Would have liked to see the HST in low range and in 4WD so it breaks the tires loose like you did the gear drive.
If the gear drive has 300% more pulling power over HST, then all salesmen should mention that when selling a tractor.
I have both and the gear drive for sure has more pulling power
@@rickywoods3101 Gear drive all day every day. No relief valves to open. It's just engine-clutch-gears-tires.
@Robert Black1911 You missed the point. Both tractors were in 4WD and High range exactly to point out that a gear tractor pulls a lot more while the HST can't even spin the wheels and is a noise maker.
Agreed. If you're hooking to a load with a HST, you're in low, not high. I'd be really curious about the peak numbers there. No question to me that if you're pulling/ground engaging almost all of the time a gear is better, but this vid gives the impression that HST can't pull even half of what a gear will.
@@javabean215 Their high end gear ratio is the same between them both. That's why he had them both In high to give them the same load and see which one is more efficient at transferring the power to the ground. if you put them in low without downward pressure they both will just spin
BUMMER!! I was looking forward to a tug of war at the end!!
Totally expected the gear drive to win having used both types of tractors. Anyone who’s ever tried to pull a stump out or climb a steep hill or even do tillage chores has experienced this. Can’t beat a HST for loader work or any other back and forth task, though. They both have their place.
Its what i am seeing. I am wondering how hard can you truly push these. I guess that is why we have 6 year warranty, to have peace of mind.
Never change messicks, i love your intro!
Throw the HST in Lo, 4wd and see how much closer it is to the gear.. probably wont match it but it’ll be close.
Not when you compare it to the gear in low and 4x4. Just look at hp to drawbar and PTO numbers! You lose ho to the HST drive, same engine HP will always be an orange to tangerine type comparison.
@@coypatton3160 there is literally a 1 hp difference between hst and gear
More like 3hp in these 25 or 30 ish hp machines it makes difference plus you don't have the god awful hst whine and need for high rpm to do any work gear is more efficient and powerful every time
@Coy Patton you lose hp to the pto because there is a lot of fluid inside the hydro.
@@highlanderc keep dreaming! Check the hp difference from engine to PTO on gear vs hst. There is always a greater loss in hst. Where does that hp go? HST! That means there is less to go to traction! Not to mention the need for rpm’s and foot fatigue.
Bottom line there are few places the hst wins very few.
I'm for gear drive.
I would have like to seen a 4th gear pull in both hi an lo. As well a pull in all 3 ranges of the hydro
Right on. Compare each tractor in each gear at each range, make a chart, THEN compare. Todd at Project Farm is probably LHAO right now.
Seemed like with the gear drive he let it jerk on the meter using nearly the full weight of the tractor on the bounce. Idk, just didn't seem like a fair test without bouncing the hst too.
Thanks, Neil - you've answered (part of) a question I've pondered: "How low is the lowest HST equivalent reduction?" The HST is, philosophically, a fluid-coupled directly- engaging transmission (adjustable constant-volume pump on the input side, constant volume hydraulic motor on the output, fluid is practically incompressible, hence hydroSTATIC, completely unlike the torque converter in a car). At least until the pressure compensator/regulator and then eventually the pressure relief valve steps in to save the day. :-) It's a CVT that uses fluid instead of belts. But... there's a bypass valve in there so it will have a "neutral" when the pedal isn't pressed either way. I've wondered what the equivalent "gear ratio" is when that valve closes and it starts being a transmission. Now we know it's roughly 1/3 as much reduction as a gear drive will give in 1st gear. Thanks! This almost certainly explains provisioning the three-range axle as opposed to the dual-range, too.
Excelent explanation Erick. Could not have said it better myself in high-tech terms. In laymans terms; hydrostatic = = slip-o-matic:: with half of the transmision missing. Hydro's great for rapid back and forth and best at howling,wyning, frequent expensive fluid &filter changes, but best at burning fuel. Shuttle good, relieable,cheep and great at putting power down. And the best of both worlds; The hydralic-power-shuttle. Hands down the clear winner;; if you can afford them and in your right size. Fortunate to have all 3. Great comment for the "tractor gang". Thanks for information.
Good video, and I love my gear drive l4400, but I think the test was a little flawed. When the gear drive started going on the first test, it was jerking around and had time to build a tiny bit of momentum. That momentum could lead to a shock value that reads higher than the actual pulling force. I think this is why the values were much closer on the second test in hi-4. Also, hi-1 would be much more similar to the medium range in the HST model if it is anything like my l4400. In it, lo-4 gives a top speed of 4.2mph, and hi-1 gives a top speed of 4.4mph, meaning they are very similar to each other in final ratios. Considering my gear drive has a top speed in hi-4 of 14.9mph, that means both of those gears are in the bottom 1/3(both less than 30% of the overall top speed/tallest gearing).
Either way, keep up the videos. There has been a lot of very entertaining and also educational information, and I think we all appreciate it.
I havea L3800 gea`r but for your comment on second time closer? Hell He was in 4th low. You have a gear unit and know low in 1st pull pull your head off.
I have limited experience on a gear drive, but lots on a hydro, I use my tractor in high to get around the property, but as soon as the bucket or any implement gets used it's in low, I never use high for work, my tractor doesn't even like to pull the box blade in high, but it will drag it in low with a mound of dirt and still can push dirt with the bucket.
I love how blown away you were about that result. I am also suprised it is that much.
Could ya redo the test both in Lowest possible gear and 4 wheel drive and diff locked (max pull) (and on a service that is less slippy if possible - hard dirt or pavement)
those factors alone improve the testing by 300% maybe not lab perfect but way more real world than the way neil decided to video this "test"
That’s awesome , how is this channel not over 100k yet
Thanks Neal. That was pretty interesting. I am not super mechanical, but I don't work my tractor in high gear. Maybe do the test again but in low, and on a more consistent surface? Grass is a wild card, I think. I'd like to see that. Thanks!
It is awesome you guys go out and play around with these machines and test them out. I can't wait to have a Kubota of my own one day!
Great video Messick's. I think this needed to be done. I love how all the HST owners are saying this was an "unfair" test. Gear drive tractors will out pull an equivalent HST all day long. Full Stop. The fact that all high horse power tractors are gear drives should tell you something. HST is a convenience but there is a price to be paid for that convenience.
You need to try them both in the lowest gear they have for a fair comparison. Surely the hydro will pull a lot more than 1100lbs. You probably couldn't even use a turn plow if it won't.
The test wasn't for "the lowest gear" and no one is saying the hydro won't pull more than 1100lbs either. The test is simply to let all you pro-hydro home owners know that the GST will drag your HST around the yard all day long. But you boys don't need it for plowing a field, you only need it for plowing your driveways so doesn't matter right?
@@bonedancer3973 I didn't buy my tractor to be a big time farmer. I plant about 10 acres of deer plots and use it for landscaping, moving dirt, gravel etc. I will work circles around a gear shift tractor doing my landscaping spreading work especially in tight quarters. All in what you need them for. I was pointing out it was a skewed test to favor the geared tractor.
Yea who in there right mind would not try lower range in hydro. I have seen same tractors apples to apples comparison and the only difference was one was hydro and the other gear drive hooked up in tug of war and they just both set there and spin.
@@bonedancer3973 Do a video with both in low gear low range and watch them just sit and spin both of them guaranteed!
After having many John Deere and Kubota garden and compacts over 40 years the significant power loss thru the hydo stat was always a trade off for ease of operation. 60 & 70's riding mowers started off with only 5hp engines but were gear drive and did a decent job.
My question is not can if the hst can pull. Can it plow 3-5 acres with a moldboard plow and live.
Philip Blass can’t see it happening, the oil would get hot and burn the hydro out
How big are the moldboards and how many?
powershuttle would be best of both worlds
I wouldn't plow much with my hydro tractor
This is a video I've wanted to do for years.
Most folk today don't really use ground engaging equipment much. Gardens used to utilize a plow and disc harrow. Now they use a PTO tiller. The gear will have more available HP to the PTO than a hydro. A box blade or a land plane use gets back to traction issues more than power issues. For the vast majority of folk hydrostat will continue to be the transmission of choice even though the cost is higher. Thanks for the videos Neil. I appreciate them.
Theoretically both tractors spinning the tires with the same weight and grip will pull the exact same. The hydro never broke traction because it was in high range, there is no equivalent to the gear drives 1st gear even in high range. Friction dictates pulling power, the hst was in a range that could not produce the torque required to defeat the friction. This test should have been done in the correct range for both tractors individually. Same weight and HP with the same tires should require the exact same torque to break loose the wheels this is simply a difference in power curves not capabilities.
thats what i was thinking
You might have said and I missed it, but are the rear tires ballasted in either machine? Found my L3130 gear drive pulled a lot harder after I refilled the beet juice in both tires (leaky valve stem).
The gear drive would’ve done EVEN BETTER if you eased the throttle on so it took longer to break loose instead of just setting it and going
how much weight can the 3 point handle on the 25hp or the 30 hp with out lifting the front end off the ground
A 2001 B7500 gear drive, is that pretty similar to a cars manual transmission?
Is the PTO horsepower the same power that goes into the drive Wheels?
l2501 with gear drive has a transmission powered pto, which means when you push the clutch in to change direction the pto shuts off, which is less then ideal when bush hogging.
I’ve always had a suspicion that gear drives pull a lot harder just because of old farmall tractors I used to play with. They were only 20-30hp but will literally flip themselves trying to pull if theres traction. You gotta be ready for that. I guess there is a clutch slip issue but the gearing is so low your not frying those clutch plates. My opinion, hydro is convenient but you do lose significant power to the ground in small tractors.
I think the gear drive lasts longer than hydrostatic
It may not put down the same numbers on a load cell, but the ability of a hydro to infinitely adjust the power output allows you to better control wheelspin. I have used dozens of different tractors and wheel spin is always the limiting factor on your ability to pull.
Gear tractors shine when you're pulling a heavy steady load, like ground engaging implements.
The hydro will run circles around any gear tractor doing loader work.
Different options for different tasks.
So which new tractor would you like to buy? The one with the burnt clutch or the one with the abused hydro. I'm not buying a L3901 from Messick's anytime soon. LOL
I may be stupid, but why didn't the HST ever spin the wheels like the manual did?
I would have pushed the HST to the point of spinning the wheels for a more realistic comparison.
Doesn't really matter much, since you'd be in low to do any work like this. In that case, either tractor is more than capable of spinning all 4 tires, so they both end up having the same pulling power. The advantage here goes to the HST since you don't have to stop and shift gears, you can just keep building up speed depending on what you're pulling.
I run an MX5200, HST, BB2572 Box Blade, about 8 to 10 hrs a day. For me, grading BOC, and general fine grade work, the HST is the deal! I'm on my 8th different tractor at my job, site work, road base crew work. I started with a 5100, 2572 box. Had 3 or 4 of those, I've put 3000 hours on one of those, and the only problem encountered, was the bushings on the speed control pedal, @1800 hrs. My ultimate favorite, is the MX5200, with a BB3578 box, water in the rear tires, and that's it. Ultimate fine grade weapon. Enjoy your vids, live life, 6 ft. At a time! #Tractortrash
My neighbour had a 24 HP HST tractor. I had a 20 HP shuttle shift. Mine would pull a cord of wood in my trailer up my back mountain with ease, although slowly in 3/12 gear. The bigger HP HST in low range would bog out and stop barely into the hill. Varying the throttle made no difference. I've been told by dealers that HST sacrifices 30% of your HP. So 50% loss in the HST seems like good math in my example.
The reason for the higher gear drive numbers is due to the shock load. The first geared pulled there was a very hard shock load, the second pull had a shock load as well, but not as pronounced.
My 1992 1920 shuttle shift Ford would out pull either of my Kubota 5030 or 5740 HSTC. I hooked a root while plowing a neighbors garden and the 1920 broke one of the 7/8 hitch pins. One of the best tractors I’ve owned.
That was fascinating. Despite the results, I’ll stay with my HST. As a novice whose work doesn’t regularly involve ground-engaging equipment, e.g., plows, disks, I love the HST’s ease of operation.
Hydro was meant for mowing your grass, shuttle was made for bucket work, stick shift was made for straight pulling
@First Choice Mechanical remember we are talking about little tractors, not heavy equipment or large tractors, I have used both and I prefer a manual transmission only if it has a shuttle shift, I know that hydro tranny's are great and all, bit again we are talking about budget tractors, not high end fancy stuff that the boss is paying for, but a at home cheaper the better little tractor, if you save some cash and it takes a little bit longer to get your work done, that's what I would do, but I'm old school, stay strong
@@cargotoolshop5319 can’t a shuttle shift do pulling work as well as a stick shift
@firstchoicemechanical1403 Because hydrostats change directions and speed quickly and effortlessly without any shifting, and are better for loader work like on a skid steer. Excavators already have a massive hydraulic pump to run that boom and stick, so it just makes sense to run the tracks with that as well.
A gear drive tractor is better to run a 15' batwing mower in one direction all day without overheating, and none of the heavy tractors are hydrostat as far as I know, although some large tractors have electric drives.
I’ve had an old gear-driven Ford which pulled like a beast and I now have a Kubota B2650 that pulls hard too, but probably not quite as hard as the Ford. And I wouldn’t go back for anything. The HST is sufficient for pulling and MUCH better for any kind of loader work or even brush hogging.
People it was done in the grass due to that being where the load cell is buried. Its not birried on his parking lot where people can damage it/it be in the way. Also he did the test in high to try and keep from spinning the tires/overloading that load cell. In low gear the gear drive would most likly max out the load cell. The hst would probably be in the upper limits. Is it truly scientific? Well no but its also something to consider.
I love how Unbiased your channell is. Keep it up. I went with the L2501 HST as I use the loader alot. I just have to get used to the Whiney noise the HST's make. Take care.
Can you get a shuttle shift with the manual transmission
how is it unbiased. he is a salesman that hamstrung one tractor to get a result he wanted for views. he probably has a ton of gear drive he wants to offload so lets make a video...
@jetthelooter I posted that 4 years ago. I bought the HST and let me tell you I'm glad I did. Had 0 issues and it was a great tractor. I juat sold it a week ago and bought a Kubota L3560 as I needed a cab and more lift capacity. My HST tractor sold within a week of posting it for sale. There are probably 10 gear drives with less hours and 4k cheaper in my same area that have been listed for months and are not selling. Hat is not only better imo but the resale on them is for superior from my experience. You will get every dollar back when you go to sell. Juat my w cents.
Gear drive model may be heavier allowing for more traction?
Also.. We had Small Tractors with Gear drives pulling 110 000 lbs of paper at the Port doing long shore man work... Those tractors had over 23000 hours before they needed clutch replacements. Shuttle shift is a bonus. Nothing beats on a tractor worse then Long Shore man pulling 16 rolls of industrial size paper rolls along with it's trailer.
Could you do a comparison between a B2401 DT and a B2601 HST?
I'm leaning heavily towards the B2401 for flail mowing slopes and some light logging of diseased trees that are starting to come down.
Thanks!
Same tractor, it's just a different transmission.
@@MessicksEquip I figured, but a local Kubota dealer has been pressuring me away from the 2401.
I'll have to look further afield. Thanks.
I have a MX5200 HST and I would have liked to seen the comparison in low on both and like others suggested, maybe do this on pavement instead of grass.
this video is pretty old but I had to chime in - for the hydrostatic machine you pushed the pedal to the floor, they actually pull harder on a standstill load with the accelerator pushed only slightly, generally speaking
Does the hydrostatic have fail safety faults built into the system, to prevent pump damage or engine stall?
Yes
Great video Neil.. where a hydro really shines is when your doing fine detailed work or loader work.. it’s not very enjoyable moving buckets of material all day long with a clutch on your left foot.. you’ll realize your left leg will start to be in quite a lot of pain after an 8 hour shift and the level of precision with the loader/bucket is not nearly as good.. but a good operator can easily overcome these obstacles with a gear driven tractor and if your anything like me you may even prefer to use gear driven over a hydro most of the time.
Surprised I missed this one 👍🏻
From what I’m understanding the hydrostat transmission if something blows or breaks and it would be way more expensive to replace than the clutch. And the gear drive sounds better and can pull more?
Correct, gear is more difficult to drive and more likely to fail than hydrostatic.
I live in Thailand and am looking at buying the Kubota L5018. It is only offered with HST (Hydrostatic Transmission) so no choice.
I would probably take manual gears if I had a choice.
I'm not surprised I use this same tractor at work and it's super powerful and 4wd works darn good tbh
Wouldn’t have anything but a hydro. Smooth and resale better.
So all things pretty even the gear is stronger than the hst? But the hst is easy and cheaper to repair? So I should go with hst and buy more hp. Is that a logical solution? I'll pay more up front but would save on repairs down the road maybe.
This video needs the context of all the others that I posted. The hydrostatic is the better choice for most people.
Changing directions fast is paramount for me, mowing and loading I’ll take the HST any day.
Changing the subject a little. Close to 45 year's ago I worked for a sawmill man and he owned an old 1965 Sox & Martin backup Barracuda Super Stock drag car which had a 4 speed in it. Once in awhile he'd get beat by an automatic hemi car but that was rare. The stripes paid him to show up because that car was a real wheel stander. He would chuckle a little and say those automatic boys had a hard time with ol red as he referred to his pride and joy. I like automatics now that I'm older but used to standard is all I would own. Got a farm truck and pickup with standard but after selling the farm I sold the Minneapolis Moline G950 and now am like many do are trying to figure out which compact or even subcompact I'm going to get to use on my mainly wooded little 20 acre place. GP Outdoors has pretty much sold me ot that little B2601. Sorry for long rambling post but I guess my trigger, aw I mean typing finger got happy.
Go gear drive and dont look back.
Well that was an easy one. Of course gears engaged are more powerful than a wet sump clutch system. I still have the HST for ease of use though.
What does a wet sump clutch have to do with either the gear drive or HST tractors in this video? Neither have a wet sump clutch. The gear drive tractor has a dry clutch and the HST is...well, an HST. It uses a pump and fluid coupling system.
Exactly wet sump is a atv thing ....
First off easy win for gear drive because the HST wouldn’t let the tires dig/ spin. Basic tractor pulling right there, no spin no power output. You don’t buy a HST for pulling power, your not going to go plow with it, it’s for ease of use, gears drive is just better for pulling regardless of high or low range
You get max torque right before the wheels break loose. You have to drop it down.
If you didn't break the wheels loose you didn't record the max torque. All the gear reductions/ratios only go into putting torque to the wheels. I would expect no difference on grass. Now if you could stall the engines at the lowest setting without wheel slip then the gear drive would do better simply because you aren't dissipating energy in the form of heat like the HST does.
I love your videos by the way. I am an engineer for a diesel engine manufacturer. I did performance engineering, after treatment engineering, and now field service engineering. If you ever want to run a test idea by me please send me an email. If so I'll send an email to your work email, just let me know in the comments.
Any one who uses one of today’s modern ultra lite utility tractors realizes that the type of transmission is not the limiting factor while pulling but a lack
Of traction
@@mikrg291 this guy gets it.
@@javery50 not really, anyone who has tried pulling a 7 foot haybine knows that traction is the least of your concern, try pulling one with a hst tractor, first time you try going up a hill you’re done. If the haybine takes 30 horse to drive and the tractor takes 20 horse to pull itself up a hill and you only have 40 you’re done, but if the same tractor with a gear trans takes 10 horse to go up the hill you’re in business.
Great video! It really doesn't matter if the gear drive out pulls the hydro IF you can't get traction! I had a 20 hp John Deere lawn mower (430) and when using the full 20hp, I simply spun, not accomplishing any work at all!
Mechanical coupling beats out a fluid coupling. They both have their pro's and con's.
Exactly which is why torque converters have a clutch that locks up in automatic transmissions. Fluid couplers are great for stop and go. But once your moving mechanical is superior.
This is not true either. An automatic will beat a manual transmission in many tests. The best off road crawlers use autos. The hydro in this test isn't capable of performing a pulling test in high. This test video was worthless. Not to mention torque converters have enourmous mechanical advantages over gears. 2 to 1 in many cases.
Anymanusa this test showed my issue with hydros pulling trees out.
@@highlanderc while you may have had an issue, I cannot be convinced of any such issue when the test in the video was performed in gears other than low. My tractor will spin the tires all day long in low. Are you saying yours stalls out when trying to pull stumps? There are bulldozers that run hydrostatic transmissions.
Anymanusa yes. Mine stalled just like this video in low of course when trying to push a tiny stump. I wonder if there are mods for the hydro transmissions to make it work like a dozer that you mention!
Neil could you do that same test in low range for both tractors. Love your informational videos. You really have taught me a lot as a new tractor owner.
Gear Drive!
I think for kicks and Google's you should have done the hydro in low
I'm going with the gear drive...
Love my Kubota b7500 hydro and my Kubota g1800 hydro. Gear drive and hydro have there place but you have to look at the big picture. there are more and more Equipment being built with hydro transmissions from mowers to farm tractors to bulldozer's. I personally like the infinitely variable speed range from zero to top speed, just can't get that with a manual transmission.
Don’t you think you should try the HST in low range?
Hi, Neal. Cool video. I have a question. I have a 2018 BX2680 and have a blown fuse. I found the fuse box, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get the cover off. I've tried moving the clip on the bottom of the box both up and down and nothing works. Can you help me out, please? Thanks!
Does Kubota offer any hydrostatic tractor with different function peddles? Meaning No heel / toe .
I always have thought that to get MAX Pull or Push you want the Lowest gear available. I would use Low gear (1st), Low range either way. Where is my error? If tires break traction add weight to the axle that slips until neither axle slips and you then have Max Traction. Creeper Gear at Max traction puts Max Power to the ground. That's all she wrote and why we spend the Big Bucks for 4WD. sdh in CT
I have a question, the hydrostatic drive uses a type of oil to run the motors for the wheel right? Oil is uncompressable so is it possible to generate close to infinite torque in a perfect world? Or are there hard limits exluding stuff like your low and high range gears of course. Greetings from belgium
C'mon Neil, why not test hydro medium at least where most use loader? Really like your channel. Thanks
Could you retry this with a pair of new Holland's? They have 3 range gear drive transmissions.
Anyone use 2 or 3 bottom.plows with hydros?
Got a questions. A problem has arisen on my 2016 L2501 with 300 hours. I pulled the lever into 4x4 (it was difficult but I managed) and to my knowledge 4x4 has worked up until today. The lever is stuck in 4x4 position yet is 100% in 2WD. Any thought. I looked under the tractor and everything seemed normal
The old “Manual vs. Automatic” debate. Modern automatic transmissions are able to out perform human performance with shifting in cars and trucks, but the manual gives you the ultimate control and the solid mechanical connection. No replacing that. Very good video.
Do it again in low range please.
Why? Just to see tires spinning? What's the point?
Yes please do it in low range !!!
My question is, which transmission is going to last longer. Splitting the tractor and throwing a new clutch in is no biggie for me. I had a b2400 that had the hst go out in it and even as old as it is, its still 1700usd for a new hst unit and that's me doing the work.
Absolutely ! Pulling power needs to be done on pavement with same or similar tires and pressure.
I have a L3130 gear shift 31 hp and a L4740hstc 47 hp with a hydro trans and a cab and i think the l3130 will pull a lot more than the larger tractor with the hydro trans but for moving snow there is no comparison in using the hst for loading and stacking snowbanks
Fluid is a very inefficient means of transmission at near 0 rpm. I recently converted an old Sears Suburban garden tractor to battery electric power. After easily towing a 3000lb camper around my yard, I did a drawbar test and at 1143lbs the front end came up with 300lbs on the front axle. The atv tires more than doubled the turf tire result of 500lbs.
I wish you would've done the hydro in low range to break the tires loose after just so you'll have a comparison with the gear drive.
Hi Neil, these comparison videos are some of the most interesting content you put out there. Thanks so much for doing this. I would love to see you do a comparison video on turning radius. That number isn't always clear since Kubota's printed specs often assume wheel braking. I think comparing the BX, B2601, B2650 (or LX2610) would be great, maybe some L's too if you're into that.
You can replace the clutch on my 1949 farmall H without splitting it why the hell in 2020 do you have to split the tractor to replace the clutch.
I had no idea the gear drive would perform that much better...kinda leaning towards the gear drive now due to "pulling power" being a huge requirement for me.
Exactly what I've known for years. The gear drive advantage is great when pulling and also when pulling constantly at high rpm the heat is handled more efficiently by square cut gears and shafts. The hydro units don't handle the heat nearly as good.
Liquid in tires and pressure difference can make a difference.
Makes me ponder wether the SST had liquid filled rear tires, at a lower pressure.
Or the rear interlock was used on the SST over the HYD.
Other then that, I know a HYD loses a ton of grunt in hi range.
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not suprised by the large advantage of the SST over the HYD.
0.01c
💥 That was very interesting, I didn’t think there would be such a big difference.
*keep on tractoring!*
So i just got the little B2401dt and noticed immediately it has way more pushing and pulling power than the b2601. However the b2601 is much simpler to use for loader work. Don't get me wrong you can obviously use a loader on the geardrives but the constant clunking around of the gears is very tiresome. Also the unsynchronized gears are hard to engage, double clutching is sometimes needed.