FAA Adds New Checkride Maneuver | Airman Certification Standards (ACS)
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
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The FAA has added a new type of slow flight to the new Flight Instructor ACS. See us perform it over Sun n Fun here!
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This is funny that the FAA adding this to the CFI ride. It used to be part of the Private and Commercial.
Yup I remember in 1997 having to do that as part of my check ride and training. Putting the airplane at the edge of the stall envelope to help a pilot recognize the condition and get maneuver to get out of it and to also give you confidence when maneuvering at that slow airspeed.
I passed my check ride in 1982. Spent a lot of time demonstrating MCAS. I was used to 45 degree banks with stall horn blaring.
It was not required, but my instructor gave me extensive spin training too.
Yep, did this for my PPL many years ago.
@@Rvictorbravo My Private check ride was in 1960, and I had to do the same thing. The check ride pilot was a WW2 fighter pilot, and he said that a person who could not recover from a two turn spin in both direction dang sure didn't need a license ! FLY THE PLANE !
Too many “certified without spin testing” parachute planes out there as trainers now.
When i was instructing I taught this to every primary student. Its necessary for everyone
Most of my work was back when it still was on the Checkride. Then shaky ass shit like Cirrus got popular and nobody wanted to risk an airframe popping the chute when it did inevitably go sideways.
I was taught this in the UK in the early 60's. Also taught to glider pilots ( no power ) including hang gliders .
Interesting, during my Private I had to fly at slow flight with the stall horn on while the instructor gave heading/altitude directions. I thought that was normal.
It is normal. And still good learning, it’s just not on the Practicals. A good instructor will still know and instruct it, it’s just more than the FAA wants you to prove. Remember the Standards just tell you what will be on the test. Actual learning just makes you better at the test. Too many instructors and programs forget that and only teach to the test.
Same here. My instructor had me doing maneuvers with the stall horn blaring the entire time. I've notice a lot (not all) of the younger instructors get really nervous doing that . They don't like deep stalls either
Yes I just passed my ppl like6 months ago did all this… go till I heard the horn and flew around in slow flight maybe the heading and altitudes were a little sloppy but he liked it enough to pass me…. I then stalled to a full stall…then asked my examiner if I could do a spin with him since we were done and he passed me. And my instructor wasn’t aloud to do it because of the schools policy we did three spin recovery’s and I’m glad I was trained that way
Many years ago (circa 1979), I had to demonstrate MCA for both my commercial and instrument check rides. And we had to hang the aircraft on the horn, none of this +5 stuff. I can't imagine why this isn't a requirement for the commercial ride.
Me too brother
Same here in 1980.
I remember my private almost 30 years ago and slow flight was fly around with the horn blaring maintaining altitude while the instructor said turn to this heading and turn to that heading all while keeping the aircraft coordinated (step on the ball!), never realized that was not part of the PTS, it should have been!
Slow flight is part of the private pilot acs. I don't know what this is but it's a bit more complicated
Same here🙂. Those were the days.😊
It was part of the PTS then. The FAA decided in the last ten years that we shouldn't get comfortable with the stall horn blasting. I agree with them.
In the airlines, we perform the stall recovery procedure at the first indication of a stall, long before the airplane actually stalls.
When I did my PPL I did power on and power off stalls, spins, short field landing, flap less landings.
I started flying in 73, CFI in 79 and after 44 years instructing you get to see how opinions about how various maneuvers should be tested change. Flight test guide became the PTS became the ACS and then once published became amended as the FAA saw fit.
Some CFI’s only teach for the test requirements that are in effect at the check ride for that moment in history. Others, and this is perhaps the key, at least for me, choose to teach the student beyond the test in learning all aspects of the envelope first. Spins are a good example. They are required training with an endorsement only for CFI.
That doesn’t mean we can’t choose to teach our students how to recover from a spin in primary.
I’ve listened to many instructors opinions on this “controversy”.
Some say just teach to the currents standards because the FAA says this is the minimum standards to earn a certificate.
Others will understand that there are many things that aren’t in the ACS which can increase not only ability, but might just save their lives someday. IOW, you only get them for a very short period of time, showing them what the airplane is capable of doing while you are on board, taking them into the ugly side of the envelope is important. Experience shows you that you can show your students more than the test requires, because the sky itself knows not the test but will easily present another test. I always say, would you rather have your wife or kids riding with someone who knows what the aircraft is capable of, like deep stalls from every configuration, MCA, accelerated stall and spin recovery in training…. Or someone who has just read about it? Minimum standards folks. It’s easy to adjust a pilot for any changes to current testing that has the experience and a higher ability than what the test required. The FAA can and will change their opinions but they acknowledge that CFI’s are free to show more than just the laundry list of tasks in the mad rush to the check ride. The airplane doesn’t care, but we should.
Reading the actual ACS items for this though it sounds like more of the drag demo required for the MEI checkride, not a VMC demo
MCA is the first thing I make pilots do when giving a BFR. This was on the PPL back in the 80s.
I was an instructor in the 1970s and all of my private pilot students were taught how to do both slow flight and minimum controllable airspeed to the standards listed here.
I don't get why it's only on the instructor checkride. Anyone who flies should be able to fully control the aircraft safely especially near a stall. Stall prevention is good but stall recovery is also very important.
The safety of pilots has not been better due to FAA training
@@EllsworthJohnson-ui1xm Well the lack of required training also would not make pilots safer.
Instead of getting comfortable with hearing the stall horn, I think they want to ingrain that if you hear it during normal flight you are doing something wrong. But I agree it wasn't that challenging to fly around with the stall horn going off. I used to play games flying circles deeper and deeper behind the power curve and I remember my check pilot pointing out that deep behind the power curve wasn't the smartest place to be when the demo only required that the horn stayed on.
@@clarkstonguy1065 That's all good as long as the stall warning works as intended and your aircraft has one. Imagine you have iced up wings and the stall happens before the stall warning ever triggers or you charter an aircraft that is not equipped with a stall warning. Pilots who wait for the stall warning and have never experienced a stall because they always avoided them in training suddenly enter a stall and probably enter a spin soon after.
@@Jet-PackI'm sorry but the ACS from private to instructor is meant for bare minimums. Pilots are no longer born. Theyrr just trained like it's their job and like anyone training for a job they're in it to perform in standard Conditions. If a single thing goes wrong they don't know what to do especially when the required checklist to fix it fails. Remember the DC10 that lost hydraulics and crash landed on thr runway decades back in Sioux city? Put modern pilot mill pilots in that same plane today and it would be a 100% crash. They're not real pilots. They just are machines that do x and y just EXACTLY as they're taught. They can't do anything else beyond that. I knew a female pilot student who is a flight instructor. How she became one idk considering she was utterly garbage at flying. But she was the study and keep practicing type, and still her written test scores were lower than mine and I didn't even study much. Her checkrides were BARELY a pass but now she's a flight instructor. Meanwhile I was born a pilot and always know I'm a pilot and pilot is who I am. I am seeing more and more "career" pilots everywhere who suck at everything, driving, flying, but because they just practice to pass the test whether the written or the ACS they're considered pilots. Uhm no. These are the same m0rons on the road who slow down traffic or cause accidents because they're mentally slow and dumb. If you can't take a race car on a track and drive within an inch of another car at 150mph and then brake hard and take a steeo corner at 70mph plus and follow that car 1 inch behind, you arent a great driver, and if you can't drive, you especially can't fly. It's so dumbed down because airlines need pilots. It pisses me off. I see people who suck at driving and suck at flying. They only know what they were taught. Anything I do that I wasn't taught they freak out or think I'm being "dangerous" or don't know what I'm doing. Uhm no. Just because you dont know how to do a 30 degree turning forward slip with full flaps, doesn't mean it can't be done. Just because you can't fly a 172 at the yellow line on an approach in a busy airport full of jets behind you, doesn't mean it can't be done. Too many awful career pilots who treat this endeavor like it's just OTJ or on the job training. It's not a job. It's your persona. And I think if we kicked out these fraudsters 80% of current airline pilots would be gone.
Everyone should be able to do this for your private cert. I did it back in '74, and there were excellent instructors besides my main guy. I got to fly with some great guys in Bloomington, IL.
They should, but ever try MCA in an SR-20 or 22? Because the manufacturers BRS systemed their way out of having to do it. Just like the Tomahawk, bad trainers lead to bad tests. Every time corners get cut in airframe certification, students lose.
Good thing I'm trying to take my CFI ride in May
For both my private and commercial (done with the same examiner) I did slow flight maneuvers and went into stalls.
I was told about this from Instructor.. I am currently working on my CFI... good to hear a further explanation, as I haven't had a deeo look at the ACS
very good to practice minimum slow speed flight it keeps you extremely sharp especially on the rudder peddles
This may be new to some of the relatively newer pilots but this was taught and demonstrated on check rides in the late 80's.
How about also teaching constant AOA turns? You more power to do them while not adding any pull on the stick. You could also teach flat turns aka rudder turns with opposite aileron as needed to keep wings level. From the flat turns, you could go a step farther and do sustained stall with falling leaf using rudders to keep wings upright.
I was taught MCA and also Vglide Slow Flight. 2 kinds, not just one. MCA at over 1,500 agl just in case we stalled it. And Vglide Slow Flight for practicing GRM. Many CFIs teach GRM at too fast speed which makes you not feel the wind at all. You never do MCA under 1,500 agl. I became a CFI later on and did same. Seen accidents of guys doing GRM at MCA under 1.5' agl and stalled it. Deaddd. Use Vglide Slow Flight in GRM.
Back in 1972, my private pilot instructor made sure I could do this simply as a demonstration of working the slow end of the envelope. He made sure I could maneuver there too -- mostly gentle rudder inputs. We didn't see this as anything special.
We used to call that the FAA Waltz.
As someone who is almost half way in getting a private, my school requires students to pass a slow flight maneuver on the stage checks.
The FAA kept changing their minds on what speed to fly it at. The Private checkride used to have it, horn blaring, right on the edge of the stall. The FAA decided to make it more of an alarm situation to have the stall horn on, so since that comes on at 5-10 knots above the stall, pilots were safer staying above that, but not getting as close to the edge for "feel" purposes. Now the FAA wants CFIs to go back to the Minimum Controllable Airspeed method.
Is this change only for CFI-A subpart H ??? or does it also effect CFI-S subpart K (CFi sport) ??
I learned how to fly back in the 80s and was taught how to fly the aircraft at MCA minimum controllable airspeed. But I believe that this should also be on the private and commercial check rides as well.
I don’t recall a bunch of us spinning it into the ground while doing this on our private rides. I’m also a pre 2015 pilot though
Seems like really good exercises and I have no problem with the way these are set up with only the more challenging version applied to instructors. fwiw - I've seen commercial pilots (back in my instructor days)- upon feeling the 'break' into a stall - actually pull aggressively back! on the yoke in an attempt to hold the altitude! So, make sure there's lots of room for recovery from the resulting stall/spin, because you never know who might react this way.
Nothing New Under the Sun. Slow flight used to be a badge of honor to show your supreme control in handling the aircraft in flight regimes that contained risk of loss of control. It never ceases to amaze me how these aviation "experts" or as they like to call themselves, "stakeholders" love to re-invent the wheel.
Wimping down the check ride
I’m going for a helicopter CFI ride so I doubt I’ll be asked to demonstrate this 😊
Sure you can. It’s called hovering. LOL
How do you know there’s a helicopter pilot in the room? Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.
@@jasonthomas8770
That’s an old saying but actually it’s a fighter pilot not a helicopter pilot.
Congrats on going for CFI. I'll get there one day.
@@richardg6312
Thanks but I had a lot of help - The US Army paid me while giving me my commercial and instrument helicopter ratings !
About damn time
Aren't CFI rides done according to the PTS, not the ACS?
The CFI PTS will be replaced with the new CFI ACS at the end of May!
I had to do this manoeuvre when taking my ppl in Canada as well on my flight test. Not sure why this is not a requirement in the USA?
It is required for private. This maneuver is for instructors and it's not exactly the same as slow flight. This is basically right at stall speed. Slow flight is 5-10kts above stall, and I'm sure the instructor slow flight includes things like high banks, or even high uncoordinated banks while flying right at the Minimum controllable speed. It's not entirely just slow flight
Maneuvering at MCA is required item in ALL checkrides, private on up for gliders, and gliders don’t even have stall warning horns.
So, no whining from the airplane group.
MCA is not required except now for the CFI ride in addition to slow flight. Two different things.
@@dc70811 maneuvering at minimum control airspeed is still required on the glider checkrides- all levels
www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/private_glider_pts_22.pdf
So its basically a drag demo but for single engine?
man im going to be doing my CFI check like, within a few weeks of this change, that SUCKS
Isn't this just the usual MCA drill that every student learns right away in primary training? (At least, 35 years ago....)
That was pre-solo in gliders at age 14...
From what I gathered from this video is need to demonstrate recovery for landing stall (dirty configuration) and take off stall (clean configuration).
Transport Canada requires this on the private flight test and it definitely helps make competent pilots
oooo...scary...a stall....what will I do? Next, the FAA may even require spins during the checkrides.
I feel like I had to demonstrate MCA when I did my private checkride back in the early 90's. Seems like something any pilot should be able to deomnstrate.
Everyone should be able to do this AND be able to recover from at least a one turn spin.
My Cherokee just has a stall light. Should it be intermittently blinking or solidly illuminated for this?
find out how many knots above stall speed the light illuminates and then read the ACS/PTS standards… You will have your answer.
My 1968 Cherokee 140 too has just a light. It comes on at approximately 4mph above the published stall. However! My a/c has several modifications such as gap seals and wing tips and 160hp upgrade .It stalls at nearly 10mph BELOW original published speeds so that this maneuver is child’s play. I was taught this maneuver back in the mid’70’s and have continued to teach it early in the training cycle. I always prep the applicants in prep period before a check ride on whatever the FAA is wanting this month…. I’ve been a CFI for 35yrs. The wing gets reinvented by the FAA every 7yrs or so… I guess they have to justify their salaries.
19779 I had to do this in my PPL check ride.
I had to do this on my checkride in 1969 for private certificate.
Airspeed control is everything. The instructing I see has students floating half way down the runway
It's about time that maneuver came back. That's how I learned slow flight, lo these many years ago. Keeping it just above the horn seems like cheating.
When I was taught years ago, we would fly that point and put the aircraft and maintain a “mush” and then recover. After mastering that, I was introduced to a three turn spin. This was after about my 6th lesson. Today everyone is scared of stalling and recovery. This is why you seldom practice accelerated stalls at a 30 degree bank.
@@aviatortrucker6285 I got my Private in gliders so, by the time I went to add an airplane rating, I was used to doing steep turns just above the stall (flying in thermals) and I was used to spins, too. With my glider experience, stalls and spins never bothered me. I'm a big advocate of airplane pilots getting a glider rating. It will really improve stick and rudder skills, plus it's a heck of a lot of fun.
I had to do induced stalls and entries several times during flight training including accelerated stalls. This seems liberal flight training has come about
When and why was it removed from the checkride?
A decade or more ago. Part of the reason is that flying with the stall warning going off continuously is negative training. It is not normal to have the warning going off continuously and pilots ignoring it. If we do it while training then people learn to ignore the warning in real time flying. So went to slow flight instead.
I had these for my Pvt in 1989.. ????
Normalization of deviation. Learning to ignore the horn when one should be reacting immediately.
This is like saying you should never learn to ride your bicycle slowly because that means you’re about to fall down
Keep in mind it's only a "necessary task" if you find yourself in this flight configuration as well.
A properly executed landing should put you in this configuration (low airspeed, high angle of attack) just before touchdown, every single time. If you're carrying too much energy or if the winds shift in the flare, the configuration will last longer than expected. Best get comfortable with it.
Keep ball centered during slow flight or the stall will snap into a spin, better have lots of altitude to practice this maneuver
I can’t believe that this isn’t required for all pilot certification. Private to ATP!
There is a very good reason why it isn’t required.
@@dc70811 And it is?
Interestingly enough, this is what i learned before slow slow flight in primary flight 1 last year (in a citabria no less). After that, "normal" slow flight was easy. The least of which was not being bothered by the horn constantly during a 20 minute minimum controllerable airspeed session. I now have my private and am working on commercial and instrument ratings in a 172. I should be finished with those by the end of the year with next year getting cmel and cfi.
Instrument equipped 172... With all the fancy equipment avail to help a pilot IFR, I remembered a comment made during my airplane school in 1976. The instructor said that it was legal to equip an airplane right up to gross weight... no useful load, but it was legal.
Should a BFR go through the full private pilot checkride?
Why? Tailor the flight review (it's no longer called a BFR, hasn't been for years) to the needs of the client.
@@edcew8236 I don't know. That's what the instructor I have is doing right now. Apparently at least one pilot I know (me) calls it a BFR (Biennial Flight Review). I know a lot more that still call it a BFR.
@@MichaelLloydyou can’t “fail” a BFR. I generally go through most of the maneuvers with folks because it’s a great refresh.
@@arthururban8340 I understand. I was working on my instrument rating up to around Jan of last year My CFII left for the airlines. I had very little time left before I finished the rating. The long cross country was in the books, written was passed. We were going to hit approaches hard and then take the check ride. After he left i didn't fly much. I like flying on instruments. I like shooting approaches. I didn't have a safety pilot to practice with. A new CFI came onboard but he wasn't a CFII. Then he got his CFII a few months ago. My review was due and we've been "working on it" for 4 flights with 2 to go. I don't mind flight time with a CFI/CFII. I'm ready to get back on the instrument flying.
@@MichaelLloydgotcha! that’s a different scenario entirely. ifr flying is “where it’s at.” i’ve done tons of approaches and they never get old. are you in illinois by chance?
Skip to 01:40 to get to the new maneuver, which is what the title says.
Like being taught to drive on an icy parking lot after hours, my dad taught me to stall his plane in slow flight to learn how to properly handle the vehicle in all conditions. Flight instructors used to train students to recover from stalls. I’m shocked that people today are not experienced in such dangerous things not to know. They are too protected to actually be safe!
We still do…
@@ltpinksock1157 glad to hear it but, I have two friends recently certified private, who never did a spin recovery once in all their training or testing… but they were told about it.
I did that back in 60's I flew many aircraft and I learned the old way,the pilots they are flying left seat today they don't know how to fly , most go to flying schools don't get the right training.
Enjoy FAA!
A pilot who isn’t exposed to, and becomes comfortable in the slow flight regime and stalls and recoveries, will typically be a timid, uncomfortable pilot. The ones who will call “airspeed” the instant you get anywhere close to (insert here whatever speed your company sets as minimum)
What you don’t realize is that you have to do it without an aircraft yoke…as illustrated.
This has been part of the EASA PPL since forever.
Good to see the FAA is catching up, GA in the US is a bit of a shit show. Although this only being required for the CFI checkride kinda defeats the point.
Nothing new, I did this on my private pilot checkride in 1976, and ditto's for commercial thru ATP and CFi check rides. I taught this to all my students. Flight at minimum controllable Airspeed.
So…. Stall stick position. Too many students thought stall was about speed until I showed them this. Especially fun in an aerobat configured to land (only at altitude)
I ALWAYS taught my students that ANY airplane CAN stall at ANY AIRSPEED and at ANY ATTITUDE and to NEVER FORGET THAT!
So a glorified slow flight?
No, not glorified. The slow-down-but-no-stall-horn has been widely criticized in the instructor community.
nope, just the basic slow flight maneuver from the Private Pilot PTS years ago. Something all pilots used to be required to know how to do.
"New?" Not necessarily. They simply expanded the skill demonstration as a new option. This is taught to every student pilot, or at least SHOULD be.
"See us perform it over Sun n Fun here!"......in a flight simulator?
'68-69 I got all my ratings and my instructors were pilots in '38 and '48.
Learned a lot that modern pilots are ignorant of... I've flown with numerous pilots with 2,000 to 12,000 hours that were, at best, unsafe... A couple... Dangerous.
Huh…my CFI made me go through slow flying for my PPL. We did turns, level flight, descents and climbs while slow flying.
Why dumb down the training. There are enough stall/spin accidents.
Funny, I didn't know the FAA was relaxing standards for pilots. Maybe that's why so many new hires at the regionals are struggling.
May when they STOPPED teaching basics like this the accidents started piling up again. I soloed Sept 1970 and did this before solo. WTH? (Retired AA Airbus Capt 2018).
No. What it did was teach a generation of pilots to ignore the stall warning. That’s negative training so we went to slow flight instead. MCA is a valuable maneuver to demonstrate to everyone at certain times.
Retired AA Airbus captain, 50 plus year pilot and instructor.
What's new is old and what is old is new, yawn.
Great required, maneuver. Long over due. Pilots should be able to demonstrate slow flight maneuver, when simulating , turning on base , when you want to land. Since, that's when most aerodynamics, stall, or accelerated, stalls occur !
In addition, FAA, should remove , " spacial VFR" , And " flight following: it's nonsense! It gives the pilots, a false, sense of security, and added burden , and unneeded stress, and pressure to ATC ! As though, they don't have enough to do !
NO, SVFR has its place. Flight following also has it's place as well. Lastly, some statistics show many more stalls on departure than on base to final. You don't sound like a general aviation pilot...
What’s your concern about flight following? It’s great for cross country flights that will take you through multiple class C and D airspaces where you would have to talk anyway.
@@Finder245 I use it even when flying across town from one airport to the next. What "added burden" and "unneeded stress" is there for pilots receiving flight following?
You're a silly, jaded man. Nothing wrong with svfr or flight following.
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. The first part sounds like it isn't; the second part sounds like it is.
Geez, did this with all my students VFR and IFR 40 years ago.....
What I heard is that it caused too many stall spins, which were often deadly with student pilots. I get why they would wait until you’re trying to get certified as an instructor to make you do something higher risk