Air-travel SUCKS today! But is it about to CHANGE?!
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- Опубликовано: 25 ноя 2023
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Is the airline industry changing? Is the way the airlines are actually making their money from you different now than what it used to be, and… is there ANY way that we could return to the lavish days of air travel, as it was back in the 1950s and 60s? And at What price??
Stay tuned!
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
• The Logistics Behind t...
• How big will the upcom...
• Airlines Face Travel B...
• EU travel restrictions...
• Qatar Airways Airbus A...
• Pan American 707: "An ...
• Pan American Boeing 37...
• Pan Am's 747 A Short T...
• United vs. Southwest A...
• Pan Am Commercial: "In...
• Late 50s early 60s Eco...
• 1980s air travel | Boe...
• Big Five Airline? How ...
• Ne perdiez jamais l'en...
• Southwest Airlines Com...
• PSA - Pacific Southwes...
• Ryanair New On Time Ji...
• L’école en vol easyJet...
• Airlines Are Offering ...
• Norse champions low-co...
• French bee - Visite de...
• Vol Inaugural French b...
• Why The Airline Busine...
• Boeing 777-200LR Busin...
• Emirates A380 Business...
• Airbus A380 Cabin Tour...
• British Airways says g...
• British Airways - A gl...
• Chaos at airports afte...
• Time-lapse: Norwegian ...
• Norwegian Air defies s...
• 🌍 Explorez le monde av...
• French bee - Revivez l...
• A glimpse into Premium...
• Why Airplane Seats Are...
• Premium Economy - The ...
• JetBlue takes delivery...
• Summer travel demand i...
• Introducing Qsuite - Q...
• We 've just ordered mo...
• Europe 24 (2014) 
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Hello
Can really recommend Incogni. Took Mentour's offer up earlier and let Incogni go to work. It took a few days, but then the junk mail just quit coming. Incogni's really worth it!
My biggest gripe about air travel is not the aircraft or the seats or the "toys" in business class but the time wasted at airports. Having to check in hours before the flight, endless ques and security checks. I remember flying from London Heathrow to Dusseldorf in the 1960s when the check-in was just 30 mins before boarding. But now its a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare just getting to the aircraft. Faffing around with seat sizes and in flight toys is not the answer. I just want to buy a ticket and get on the plane!
I get why you'd want all those checks to go away, because all you want is to get ON the plane.
However, those checks are there for the people who would also like to get OFF the plane at some point, as well! >)
@@gregsomlai297
We manage without them on trains, so what’s the big deal ?
Exactly my issue with traveling these days. I have options as far as seating choices, but not so much for the airport experience. I don't fly very often, so pre-TSA/ClearMe are not really good products, but I dread every time I have to go through the TSA security lines, especially in a major hub on a Friday. I did exactly that in Atlanta a month or two ago - I joined the ridiculously long line 2 hours before my flight and barely made it to the gate. And I was on my own. Add my family with two toddlers and it becomes hell on Earth.
Yes and how often do you read about tests of the security failing with testers getting weapons on planes.
Then we have the grandma arrested with having CBD oil
@@ThomasJoseph-sq9jl My father lived in Atlanta. You have my sympathy. Even before the TSA hassle dealing with the airport logistics is horrible. My father worked in aviation and when I arrived to visit complaining about the entire experience he would remind me airports are designed to service the planes not the people.
I genuinely think the small size of seats and aisles is becoming a safety issue.
Whenever they do 90 second evacuation tests, they don’t use normal people, they use their own (tiny, young, fit) staff.
In my opinion every airplane should have to demonstrate they can meet 90 seconds using a randomly selected group of people recruited for this activity, including the 40% overweight, elderly people, etc.
It should be necessary to demonstrate that there is enough space between seats where if the middle and aisle passenger are incapacitated an average-sized window passenger could still squeeze by, including if the seats before are reclined when the accident happens.
Or don't be fat and poor and expect a huge seat lol.
You are so right! Unfortunately, it will probably take an entirely preventable disaster with a huge loss of life before anything is done about the current, unacknowledged safety issues.
@@cczivit's crazy how literally nothing changes about humanity
Well fortunately that 90 second escape window has just been wonderfully illustrated, in Japan, by the 379 passengers escaping from the burning Airbus A350 in less than 90 seconds on only 3 inflatable slides. Thankfully everything worked out for those people who are all okay. 👍🏼
If they have to run the test that way, given the size and shape of the average American they’d only have room for two columns of seats by the window each and the rest would have to be open space in the middle. Also, might have to install a moving sidewalk in the plane . 😂😂
When talking about the death of regular TV, I often cite your channel as why.
Old shows about air disasters had pilots yelling jargon and flipping overhead switches.
Your channels are professional, honest and and respectful of viewer, and I can't recommend you enough!
Thank you so much!
Exactly. I can't stand air crash investigation now
It's like with the historical documentaries on TV versus what I see on RUclips - one is patronising and caters to the lowest common denominator (who probably won't watch it) and the other revels in complexity and depth; beyond that I find many TV documentaries tend to meddle in the Cultural Wars without sense of perspective or awareness.
It's the 'contentification' of the internet. Nothing is 'art' or 'entertainment' anymore, it's all just bland 'content'. Petter still puts out art.
@@memofromessex But TV has also changed. There are fewer documentaries made for commercial free television (like the old BBC) and they are all following the same sensationalism and repetition of the same questions, eventually answered five minute from the end. It is all bout making people stay for the commercial, not about people being interested in the subject.
A long time ago, airlines learned that people would be willing to endure brief periods of discomfort for cheap airfares. They responded accordingly.
Exactly. If the flying public wants to blame someone for the cramped conditions and horrible service they only need look in a mirror. Or pay up for premium seating which, adjusted for inflation, is cheaper than tickets back in the "good old days."
No one pays $69 for a hotel room and expects a Four Seasons experience. But somehow people expect airlines to be different?
that is utter garbage, have you actually seen the price of the average airfare, I just flew from Switzerland to Bangkok return for under £400 with luggage for 3 month ticket, and paid an extra £80 for 4 seats selection, 2 flights out and 2 back.
If you want to blame anyone blame the airports and the taxes, my ticket equated to £139 for the flight and £270 in FEES and taxes those have nothing to do with the passenger but the greed of those running the show.
Now if that was reversed and the ticket price was £270 and the taxes were £139 airlines would be CONSIDERABLY less likely to cram an extra 30 seats on to each plane just to cover costs@@toddsmith8608
Why not? As long as the deal is mutually satisfactory, as old Romans used to say "pacta sunt servanda". The problem is when you buy priority boarding and have it denied (by a Norwegian employee groaning something about "calling police")or when you find out your premium economy occupied by someone else and the attendant politely tells you to seat "where I say otherwise I kick your axx out of my plane" (where else but in a United flight?). There is plenty of airlines that honor what they sell and as usual some that don't.
And now it's standard unless you pay first class.
@@CARLOSFERNANDEZ-vf2fm oh god, I had thrombosis after a short haul low carrier flight during a school trip, so I now actually pay for aisle seat or emergency row reservations and would pay for more leg room in economy plus.
If anyone would deny me that seat, I'd probably sue them and I'm not American 😅 I'd might turn into a Karen and film them or have them sign something if they want to kick me off the plane and/or not give me my paid for seat.
I'm not playing with my health like that.
Airlines are pretty much Greyhound busses with wings now. And the passengers are the same
But we also pay bus ticket prices.
@@Secretlyanothername that is part of the problem I’m thinking
If you want to avoid the plebs, buy business class or first class
@@linuxman7777 I do when I have to fly.
It's all about to change if WEF get their way. They want to discourage the common man from flying and make it an exclusive reserve for the elites only. Whether it's through some kind of taxation to put it out our reach or introduction of legislation that makes it impossible for the plebs to get authorisation to use air travel, that's where we're headed. This could also explain why the airline companies are already reconfiguring their fleets to be ready for the future. Fewer passengers and only high earners allowed.
The main reason I don't like flying is all the annoying crap that comes with it. It starts with the baggage limits, then the journey to the airport, the nerve-wracking waiting at the airport, the running around, all the annoying security checks and then screaming babies that drive you crazy during the flight. When I finally arrive at my destination, I'm so stressed that three vacation days are spent just recovering from the flight.
In the meantime, I only travel by car because it's much more comfortable. I can look for an interesting route, set off whenever I want and stop here, have a look there. I can take as much luggage with me as I want and don't have any annoying fellow travelers. And when I arrive, I've seen a lot on the way and I have my own car with me, so I don't need a rental car.
In Canada, its cheaper to fly from city to city than drive.
you are poor and live in the USA? or just live in the USA?
@@qbi4614 I live in Central Europe.
Driving sucks though, for anything over 100mi. You have to focus while driving, while on the plane you can just relax and watch an inflight movie, the waiting does kinda suck at the airport, but you do make up for it in reduced travel time. Not to mention that air travel is many times safer than driving. It really is a question of is more luggage worth your time and safety? if not, then fly.
It takes you 3 days to recover??
After you’ve flown in an unheated C130 or C141 sitting on a canvas bench for hours anything is a step up.
Maybe but how much did you pay?
@@shrimpfleahe gave a buck 0 five.
Yep, done that. Try asking for a beer on one of them lol!
The most memorable flight I ever had was in 1960 when I was 13!! It was on board a Short Solent flying boat from Suva, Fiji to Tahiti. It was operated by Tasman Empire Airways Ltd. (TEAL) - the forerunner of Air NZ.
The flight left Suva in the morning and arrived in Western Samoa late the same afternoon. We then departed in the early hours of the next morning for Aitutaki Is. in the Cook Islands. The passengers went ashore for a swim in the sea and breakfast on the beach under the palm trees! In the meantime fuel was hand-pumped into the aircraft tanks from a barge alongside. Then we left Aitutaki around 10 am and my younger brother and I were invited to the flight deck for the takeoff!! We simply stood behind the pilots' seats and experienced the tremendous engine noise from the 4 Bristol Hercules engines and the thrill as we eventually lifted off the water. I can still see the skipper's hands on the 4 throttle levers.
We were in sight of Moorea Is. about 2pm and soon landed at Papeete, Tahiti. When we saw Moorea, the skipper announced that the island was in sight and everyone rushed across to the left (port) side to see the beautiful island from our 10,000 foot ceiling. Then he came back on the speaker and asked that everyone get back in their seats because he was having a problem keeping the old girl in the air in its unbalanced state!!
That was the second to last flight of the TEAL Coral Route, as it was known. A truly memorable experience never to be repeated.
I remember Pan Am Clipper Class. Took many trips around Asia. 2-3-2 seat config, free mixed drinks, way upgraded food, silverware, wide seats. The price was decent. The old 747s had about 40 or 50 of those seats behind first class. Loved those Pan Am 747s.
Fantastic! I loved the Pan Am 747's as well, they were a sight to behold.
You love the price as well? Must have been 3000$ in today's money.
In 1979, my family was 'bumped' off a flight (can't remember the Airline) from Hawaii to N.Y. stopping in L.A.
With a prospective 11 hour layover, I instead, went up to the Pan Am counter & saw one of their flights was
leaving in an hour! They took our non-Pan Am tickets & let us fly to N.Y. (no extra charge) arriving only 2.5. hrs.
late! Pan Am will always remain "The King of the Skies" to me!
They also had clipper class seats in the upper deck of the 747s. My one and only 747 flight was on the upper deck of a Pan Am 747 in clipper class when I was a kid. they even ran those on domestic flights between NY and Florida.
Wages kept up with cost living back then.
@@ralfzacherl9942
Minor detail: a regular interstate trip we do which (allowing for inflation) cost about $1800 in today’s money in the early 1970s, now can usually be picked up for about $150- $170.
Unless you’re buying a seat at the last minute and traveling at peak time in holiday season, the price is now a tiny fraction of what it used to be, literally 10% or even less.
These are literally business class prices. You can get the same service today, you just have to pay
My time-travel bucket-list: a very long journey in a pre-WW2 flying-boat.
Great video, Captain.
Oh wow. I'd be up for that.
San Francisco to New York in just five weeks with the Pacific Clipper.
@@jimmyryan5880Sorry, Dorothy Lamour asked first.
@@kilianortmann9979whoaa thats cool
Dream on: not possible anymore
It is better now 😊
My father told me that he flew from Stockholm Sweden to South Rodesia (Zimbabwe now) in Africa during the early 1950's.. The trip took three days with a DC 3. First day Stocholm - Paris, second day Paris - northern/central Africa, third day the last leg to South Rodesia. Two hotel nights included in the ticket price.
Today's low cost long haul flights are of ridiculously bad service. My wife and I recently flew LEVEL (Iberia) from Boston to Barcelona and back. Turns out, unless you pay extra (and you know about this upfront) they won't give you as much as a glass of water on their transatlantic flights. You also must pay for headphones, pillows and blankets. This is a new low. And the price was in the ballpark of their competitors (just below $700 per roundtrip, plus $240 for the option to sit next to each other on both flights) - we chose it because of the direct flight. Oh well, never again.
Dude, do your research before you fly. There are plenty of travel forums that would tell you all this stuff.
19:22 I agree with the nice Middle Eastern gentleman.
Earlier this year I have flown from Atlanta to Amsterdam and back in Delta’s Economy Comfort+ and almost $1k extra a ticket can hardly justify benefits.
- one step up in boarding
- few in of extra leg room
- movable foot rest (all of them were not functional on all seats I could see)
- “guaranteed” pillow, blanket and headphones
- complimentary alcoholic beverages.
I love how Petter says “it would make this video unbearably long” … am I the only one who thinks there’s no such thing as too long when Mentour releases a video? 😂
It’s always fun to revisit the cabin service in the John Wayne film “The High and the Mighty”. I particularly liked the part where a disgruntled passenger pulls a revolver out of his pocket. The stewardess scolds him and tells him to put it back. Those were the days….
Another phenomena of the era was down on their luck buissnessmen (Because working class people still took the train back then or their car if they could afford it), boarding planes with dynamite from the general store, taking out a massive life insurance policy on and setting it off in the lavatory (Continental Flight 11 for example). there where also a bunch of assasinations/unwilling insurance scams that went like this back in those days.
Yeah, and his fellow passenger hangs on to the gun for him, then gives it back later after the guy says he's feeling better now. Lol.
I can't tell you how much I love these deep dive videos! Gives me a deeper understanding - and appreciation - of airline/airplane related topics/issues...
And, Petter, don't worry about making your videos 'unbearably long'! No such thing!
Personally, I'd *love* to see longer videos with really deep dives (say, 45-60 min long)!
I really like the long-format style en vogue nowadays, and I have a feeling you will be really good at it -- making it both informative & interesting!
Glad you like them!
Thank you for a fascinating explanation. I fly a lot. I hope you will consider doing a similar "deep dive" on airline "frequent flyer" programs. These began as a loyalty reward program, but have morphed into an entirely separate income stream. And I'm not referring just to the incredibly profitable agreements between airlines and credit cards, but rather the actual fare differences for different booking classes that offer no actual "benefits" other than frequent flyer miles: pay $200 for a seat that offers 25% miles, $500 for the exact same seat on the exact same flight, but get 100% miles. In other words, it's not a reward for loyalty and the airlines are not just selling seats - they are selling miles. It's not just "First, Business, Premium Economy and Coach." There are dozens of booking classes within each of those categories. Why do I feel the airlines are...er...taking me for a ride?
Flying Qatar Airways for the first time was an eyeopener to me! This is how flying should be, it was wellness for body and soul! ❤
Just like Pan Am back in the day.
I used to use them a lot, but since covid I have found that their quality has deteriorated significantly. My latest airline I now use is Kuwait Airlines, mainly because they have better planes.
@@TIMMEH19991Qatar business Q suites are very good. A380 first class is epic. 8 flights in last 18 months.
A great way to start and finish a holiday.
@@TIMMEH19991 I heard the same about Emirates, too, so when it comes to quality the airlines from Arab countries seem to be on another level, no European airline can compete with them - and I have the bad feeling that they not even want to do so, neither Lufthansa, nor KLM, not even Swiss.
European airlines just don't care about customer experience but efficiancy is their main and only goal.
@@c.s.4273 Emirates has basically 2 fleets. The "nice" fleet that flies to western countries and has the most current cabin offering and a tolerable economy cabin and the "India bus" fleet which have their older cabins and an absolutely awful economy product, those are the planes that fly the "help" over from India. Qatar is similar with their Q suites cabin vs their older cabin, Q suites only fly on routes to rich countries.
I flew on a 707 on long haul in 1963 and the seats were larger the food actually was terrible and ticket prices were outrageous so the flights were half empty
I'm tall and have worked all my life to build a successful business. Business or First Class is the only way I fly. Also, on international flights I like leaving the US East Coast at night, having a seat that will lay flat and getting some shut eye. I've found this greatly reduces my jet lag and it allows me to arrive in Europe in the AM which gives me an extra day. Perhaps someone can answer this question. I accidentally left a cork screw in my carry on and the TSA took it. When dinner was served I was given a proper steak knife - long sedated blade and a full size handle. Take my corkscrew and give me a steak knife. Really?
There are two possibilities: One, the TSA knows that hangry people can be dangerous. However, the large steak knife was provided to you when you had food in front of you, so you would not be agitated at this time.
Two, the TSA is all just security theater to make it seem that the government is protecting us, even though the flight school where one of the 9/11 terrorists attended reported the suspicious behavior of the terrorist to the government, but the government did not act on this information, thus allowing the 9/11 attacks to occur.
Hmm, I wonder which one of these possibilities is more likely. 🤔
Because the government is stupid.
Airlines would stack their passengers like cordwood if it could get them an extra 1% profit
RyanAir considered standing only passengers a few years back. A bit like the tube/metro 😨
airlines would much rather you spend the money for anything other then economy.
watched a viedo by wendover productions titled "economics of airline class"
in the example they used the next class above economy class with something like 1/3rd of the passengers made about the same money per ticket, this is based on memory so not exact.
its very much a "you get what you pay for" experience.
Airlines are only responding to the free market choices of the flying public. Ask any airline executive why the seats don't have more room, and he'll tell you that's how 80% of the people vote with their wallets. And the poors always choose low fares > bigger seats. And there's only so much space on an airplane. As @ARockRaider points out the airlines would LOVE for you to spend more for larger seats in contrast to what 80% of the customers actually choose. So blame it on the passengers not the airlines, comrade!
@@uclajd Wouldn't that be assuming that it's a choice between the seats being uncomfortable, and very expensive? IDK, it seems like with anything in any business, it's not that simple, and there are a lot of variables that come into play, IDK. It just feels sus to me.
@@DanknDerpyGamer I can't speak to comfort, but most people think more leg room and reclining seats are key to comfort (I know my back cares about reclining). As far as comfy seats, they do have to be flotation devices, no? So they can find your bobbing corpse in the ocean for a decent burial.
Just how a guy sitting in a chair can produce such captivating, informative and inspiring tv is beyond me. Keep it up
Passengers aren't demanding Premium Economy, they're damanding to be treated like human beings. Airlines squeezing Economy with sub-17" seat widths and 28" seat pitch, and at the same time offering Premium Economy with over-18" seat width and 32-33" seat pitch are simply reviving traditional economy. It's a situation they created, and are profiting off of it.
People demand cheaper and cheaper flights, only some of us got left behind there.
They may demand to be treated better, but when actually faced with the choice most passengers prioritise price over comfort. What people say they want often doesn't match what they actually choose.
Yet, Ryanair has no shortage of people wanting to fly with them, despite their poor customer service.
@@thomasdalton1508 > *most passengers prioritise price over comfort*
Because the airlines, dishonestly, frame it like that. It's bullshit, period. Even Forbes published opinion piece(s) about how Gerard Arpey's reasoning for American Airlines removing "More Room Throughout Coach" was bullshit. The airlines would be able to operate fully without CEOs making multi million bonuses, or making less - and that money going back into the airlines, for instance.
(And no, tempting as it is, I wouldn't trust govt to bring on such a change of ops - people realizing the false dichotomy and doing something about it would)P.
People demand to smoke fine and mild tobacco products on board!
I fly a lot, most the time in premium economy domestically, and first on longer flights, typically. I like the direction airlines are going with premium economy tickets, expanding their seat selection in those higher classes. Overall it brings the prices of those cabins down, which helps. If airlines continue to expand their premium products, the prices will continue to become more affordable. A first class ticket across the Atlantic one-way is usually $5-700. Really affordable with all things considered. Premium economy is often just a little more expensive, but in return, my long legs don’t suffer having my knees pressed against the seats in front of me. I call it the “tall tax”. I can see airlines in the future rolling out 100% premium planes more and more often, like what we see with SQ22/23 and BA1/2. That’ll be there for those who want and can afford those products, just at a better price, and people still trying to pay as little as possible will continue to have plenty of options. It’s a win for everyone IMO.
No such thing as an "unbearably long" Mentour video 😊
He might be talking about "unbearably long" from the perspective of the person who has to get the video filmed, edited, and uploaded.
Our friend from Sweden is still the most professional (and entertaining) explainer of how aviation works - take saa mycket!
04:53 There is zero chance the car is missing that drum 😄
The last comment was absolutely correct. In the 80’s I flew hundreds if not thousands of flights and if I was running late I knew I could make a flight if I got inside the terminal 10 minutes before departure. Today is 1-2 hours and then you get a seat that you can barely, in my case, get your knees into. I won’t fly unless my destination is more than a 900 miles away.
Absolutely. Happy to live on the east coast and even happier to take the train. #Amtrak 😍
All I want is to get from point A to point B in a safe efficient manner for a fair price, if I wanted luxury I would take a cruise.
Last time I stepped in an airliner it had 4 Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp engines with huge propellers .
There is literally nothing about the travel "experience" that appeals. Horrific Airport experiences including queues and poor/rude staff with security and customs/border control. Coupled with overpriced tickets for small seats, add ons for everything and considerably poor service from bored and disinterested air crew and the whole thing stinks. It once was a fun prospect but if we are being honest,it's lacking in many ways these days and is just a necessary evil to get to where we are going.
You must be from the USA and I would agree, but businesses class with Singapore air is a treat, a real travel "experience"
Agree. This is why I try very hard to fly non-stop flights anymore. I am willing to drive 2+ hours to DC or take the train to NYC from northern VA where I live in order to do so.
Buying a ticket on Frontier is a flimflam. By the time you pay for the add ons it’s the same price as United and at least United gives you a seat that doesn’t feel like a cement block.
I was criticized by staff for standing out of the way, when I was letting quicker folks through. I would prefer to relax and take my time.
@slapshot0074 - forgot to add to your list your fellow passengers...how alas many of the traveling public are just plain *^&^&^^)&^& and you wonder why you get "bad" service from the air crews?
Thank you Petter for your videos, full of knowledge and wisdom, thank you.
Wow, watching that baggage door come down with that attendant looked like a garage door.
It's a drop down bed. It was one of them aircraft, a sleeper one.
@@huwzebediahthomas9193 thanks, I thought it was rather large
We have taken Ryanair flights throughout Europe for less than the cost of a lunch. For short trips, it's like taking a bus. We travel with only carry-ons and buy a snack at the airport just before boarding. There is no way a long haul airline can match their model.
Just checked. Jet blue Mint Heathrow to Boston return 2 months away is about £1120 whereas the standard is about £270, so 75% lower for a economy seat
Thanks for looking that up!
...or it's 300% more than an economy seat. That is a lot of money when you consider 4 people can travel in economy for the price of just 1 of those seats.
However, when you look at a flight from Boston to Heathrow you are looking at a long day of travel. The flight itself is about 6 hours and 45 minutes plus you have to add in the check-in time and commute to the airport and then getting your luggage and leaving the airport or rental car/transportation to where you will be staying so all in you are looking at about 10 hours travel (more or less)... Plus you have to do that twice if you are returning to Boston. (disregarding 2 month return)
How important is that 7 hours in the airplane to someone...What is comfort worth?
That is a huge difference for an average family of 4 going on vacation. 1,100 vs 4,500 (est) That's a 3,400 difference. That is a decent amount of spending cash for a family of 4 on vacation.
JetBlue is flying DUB-JFK from next March, and I’ve already booked Aer Lingus DUB-ORD to the USA next April, so I checked JB fares, expecting to get annoyed. But JB is actually more expensive to ORD, with a stop, than AL is non-stop.
The point is Jet Blue Mint is less expensive than most other mainline trans-Atlantic business class. I've shopped it as well - currently looks to be a great deal.
Back in the 1999 I had to fly to Milwaukee for a job interview. Being only a couple of hours away from DC, a friend of mine recommended that I fly Midwest Express. It was an airline created by Kimberly Clark to transport their executives around. Every seat was first class. It was quite the experience.
At the other end of the spectrum, I spent 9 months doing weekly commutes to Milwaukee on one of ME’s Dornier 328s. Not quite the same experience.
I got to fly Midwest and it was amazing. I was fairly young and it set the bar for what I thought flying was. I’ve only been disappointed ever since that flight.
Regarding Premium Economy, airlines basically figured out there was a group of folks who were willing to pay more for a seat comparable to a domestic first class seat, but took one look at business class and said, “nope, I’m good”.
They needed a product they could sell since the extra legroom seats were mostly going to people with points status since the new seat designs largely make the extra legroom seats redundant. The newest seat designs are actually amazing in their ability to make a 30 or 31 inch seat pitch feel reasonably comfortable. Often better than the 31 or 32 inch pitches of previous seat designs. Worst seat I've ever flown on was a 31in pitch United seat from circa 2012 on a 737-800, I flew their newer though not newest 737-900 cabin last year and the 30in pitch seat actually was a lot more comfortable, not the best econ seat ever, but certainly tolerable for a domestic flight.
I still remember when 1st class upgrades were debuted by the airlines. Starting with TWA and their "FirstUp" program. I can recall walking up to the TWA gate agent and literally asking for a 1st class upgrade, and getting it. Granted, I was frequent flyer of TWA and was in their Ambassador class, iirc, but it was still something up until then I didn't dream of doing as an economy passenger.
Speaking of LLCs, if you are in the US and need to visit Japan, be sure to look at ZipAir with their 787-8s and the "Lie-Flat" class. Lie-Flat is not quite a business class, as it has no IFE, but free internet, and no in-flight meals unless you pre-order the meal. You also need to pre-order a pillow and blanket, but at least you then get to keep it.
I recently flown on NEOS 787 premium economy from JFK to Milan. I felt it was totally worth the experience I received. From lounge access to bigger seats and leg room. Pre flight Prosecco and multi course meals just made our vacation trip extra special.
The way flying should be. And that is a long haul. Good for you!
Don’t forget that before deregulation, an airplane ticket was just like having cash in your pocket. An airplane ticket on one airline was good on any airline that covered the same route. Also airline tickets were redeemable for cash. In 1982, I still paid $700 for a coach fare between Great Falls, Montana and Chicago O’Hare. But the food was good and there were no delays.
Hopfully United will bring back the Great Falls to Chicago flight.
Back during the Johnny Carson era when the show would fly stand up comics out to perform on the show, many comics would exchange their first class tickets booked by the show for economy seats allowing them to receive hundreds of dollars, sometimes even thousands of dollars, for downgrading their ticket. Good times.
that was a mjor point in his presentation.
$700 in 1982 adjusted for inflation is $2200.00.
Great falls to Chicago round trip on Delta economy can be had for $217.00 today.
$857.00 for business class.
We often look back through rose colored lenses.
People want golden age of aviation back, but don’t want to pay €3 extra for more legroom on their €20 transatlantic flight
Midwest Express, a Milwaukee based airline, had first-class service for all passengers. Wide leather seats, china place settings with silverware, free champagne, freshly baked chocolate chip cookies . . . through the 80s and 90s.
And they no longer exist.
Air travel creates some wild videos of fights and lunatics using air travel. Spirit Airlines seems to appeal to the dregs of society busting up the places and vulgarities by usually obese people. How they fit in 17.75 inch wide and 28 inch pitch seats is amazing.
I mostly fly US domestic on Delta (since they ate Northwest). The seat choices are First, Comfort+, and Main. Comfort+ is a Main seat with extra legroom. I find the Comfort+ seat more comfortable than First as long as no one is in the middle seat.
I used to buy in Main and then upgrade to Comfort+ when I checked in (online, 24 before departure). But the paid upgrades became less available over time and I had to start buying Comfort+ tickets (and noting the price difference since I am only getting reimbursed for Main). But on my last flight, booking six weeks ahead of time, only two middle seats were available in Comfort+ on one leg and I booked in Main, which was sparsely booked, for the return. However when I checked in for the return I was offered a really inexpensive First class upgrade which I took.
Another thing that I have noticed is the decline in the amenities offered in Comfort+. The 3 inches of extra legroom and “dedicated” overhead space still make it worth it but I remember how it used to be and feel I am getting cheated out of something.
Is that tea in your mug?
Thanks for the video, Petter and MentourTeam. ❤
phenomenal video, great talking points! informative as always keep up the great work!
As always, informative and tightly scripted.
One of the very best RUclips channels.
Thank you.
More companies are changing their staff travel policies. In my company the old policy was if the flight has airtime less than 5 hours then the ticket should be economy and if more, we could book business class. The new rule is if the flight takes less than 3 hours, the ticket must be economy. If airtime between 3 to 10 hours, it should be premium economy and only if more than 10 hours, we can book business. For me who lives in Europe, this means all europian flight must be booked in economy (normally 70% of our destinations).
I get annoyed having to pay for business class because I’m confined to a wheelchair. They’ve made aisles so narrow and legroom so small in economy that although they have aisle chairs for immobile passengers, they’re too small for a wheelchair passenger to transfer into their seat. Getting out is even harder. You can’t book bulkhead or bassinet seats either as the armrests are rigid and can’t be raised to do a slide on/off transfer.
Airlines don’t want to have to deal with disabled people so they make it difficult or expensive to travel. To visit family in the US costs me around $40k return (I’m in Australia). My able bodied husband pays less than $2k in economy and we sit apart. If I need anything in transit (medication or repositioning my paralysed legs) the cabin crew has to go get him from economy to help.
Wheelchair accessible economy would be very helpful.
Thank you for a great explanation in easy to follow manner.
Euro-business class as offered by LH, AF, or LX is actually a rip-off as one usually pays a substantial higher fare than Y class but is offered an economy class seat with the middle seat blocked for more space. In contrast, flying domestic (!!!) business class in China includes a full sized business or first class seat (much akin to first class in the U.S.) in a 2-2 configuration which is often available at rather attractive rates , for example on Shenzhen Airlines or Hainan Airlines.
I think most of their offer is supposed to be the experience before you board and after you leave (skypriority and lounge). However you get these exact same things if you're a higher tier frequent flyer anyway.
While I agree it's not a great deal I'm the wrong person to argue because I've never paid for anything else than economy in my life. I often find a great seat with seat maps.
Premium economy isn't such a new idea. Virgin Atlantic were offering exactly this in the mid 2000s. My wife and I flew Manchester to Orlando in 2005. The premium economy seats were in the upper lounge of the 747. Plenty of space, big comfy seats, and great food.
Why would anyone wish to pay extra for early boarding? The few times I flew, I always preferred to board really among the last entering the plane. We all arrive at the same time anyway.
NY to London $550 in 1960 but you wouldn't be riding on a 747 back then, if you were lucky you got a 707 6-7 hours if not you got a DC-7 or a Conny 12-14 hours.
As someone that can't be called short, I definitely prefer enough legroom on long haul. 2-3 hours I can survive being squeezed in cattle class from a low cost carrier, but 10-12 hours? Don't think so, flying in and of itself is uncomfortable enough due to noise and dehydration.
I remember the earlier attempts at low cost long haul. People Express and Laker Skytrain were well known, but there was also the earlier form of Icelandic, who in the 1980s flew DC-8s between Luxembourg and places in the US (Baltimore and other such cities), with stopovers in Iceland en route. They ran coaches between Luxembourg and Cologne, where passengers could get train connections onwards. It was common to see their planes running very late because of some tech problem; it wasn't unknown for a flight to turn up the next day. Why? Because they didn't have spare planes if something went wrong. Laker and People got squashed by rival airline pricing. Virgin Atlantic also started in a similar fashion with old 747s flying out of Gatwick to the US; for a while they had a connecting flight from Maastricht to Gatwick using a Viscount aircraft from the 1950s. The Virgin magazine proudly claimed that all their aircraft had four engines.
Thank you for sharing.😊
A main difference between air travel then and now is the draconian security screening everyone has to go through. Take shoes off, belt off, jacket off, watch off, liquid restrictions, etc etc.
You have a higher chance of getting killed by hijackers and bombings in the "Golden Age of Aviation" than today.
Think of Pan Am Flight 103, the hijackings in the 1970's and 9/11.
@@rbgerald2469 I don't think that grand total of 3 terrible accidents happening in the last 100 years justifies subjecting everyone to that shit on a permanent basis.
If you travel frequently precheck is amazing.
@@michaelbuckersfar more than 3, simple Google search.
Travel sucked in the 90s too. Deregulation is a much bigger factor.
Low cost carriers have the advantage and the big disadvantage of often being single type only. While it makes the operations cheaper and allows for better crew exchangeability, if your one type gets grounded, has issues, or has a required change, your whole fleet is down and you loose everything. Not only long haul, but this happened to many carriers, both with Airbus and Boeing aircraft types, and their engines, quite a few times in the recent past.
Have an Absolutely Fantastic Happy New Year Mentour!
This was a very good video. I really enjoyed the information and also that you spoke just a bit slower than usual.
15:00 "This is actually very central in how the Gulf airlines can work the way they do…"
It also doesn't hurt that they are wholly owned by their governments, and thus get a lot of sweetheart deals.
and can absorb a loss if they need to.
Besides Qatar and Emirates, there's also Etihad. Which operate hub and spoke from the Middle East
Ima stay out of the Middle East
There's also Ethiopian, that operates operates long haul hub and spoke out of Addis Ababa. Especially between Europe and Far East.
Quantas
0:39 i literally have a backpack stuffed like a turkey for a spontaneous day trip.
Though i work in an airline so im just waiting for payday, and its not for the flight lol
I recently flew on a United Airlines 767-400 in Premium Plus from MAD to IAD and it was a real upgrade. The seats had a larger pitch, reclined farther and had a leg rest that came up when the seat reclined. The seat was also more padded with an adjustable headrest and a wide fixed armrest between the seats. The amenities were much better too. The food was better and there were more choices with liquor included. They included a headset (not cheap earbuds) and real blanket and pillow and an amenity kit. It isn't business class, but much cheaper and well worth the increased cost from regular economy. A really good option on a long haul (8 hour) flight.
I like where I live so not really motivated to leave my island. If I took airlines it is two hour drive to the airport costing $60 round trip for tolls and gas. The airlines demand a 3 hour check-in since international flight. The flight is two hours plus 30 minutes to get bag and clear customs. A 2 hour flt consumes 7.5 hours. I have not been on an airliner in 6 or 8 years and I used to be a pilot for a living and not worth the trouble. I have other ways off the island.
It's the airlines fault that you live far from an airport!
Why do I feel that this episode is an ad to the Emirates ?
I saw these innovations whilst at BA.
Certainly different as they were also removing 1st class from all but a few routes but increasing the number of business class ones as well as relaunching Club World
😊
BA's World Traveller Plus (Premium Economy) is a perfect example of the new trend. The seats are different to economy seats however. They are wider, recline a lot more and have larger screens than their economy seats. They have more leg room and feature a smaller cabin too, typically in 2-4-2 layout on their 777s (BA only offer this cabin on long haul).
I flew in this cabin with them from Heathrow to Atlanta, and back. The price was pretty reasonable. Food was good, service excellent.
Everybody hates low cost carrier experience but I love it. I can feel the discount when I book a ticket and I am willing to sit in miserable seat for few hours to save hundreds of dollars.
I've never had an issue with low cost airlines...ever.I can afford the premium seating but choose not to for the same reasons as you. Agree 💯
Agreed. I don't live a luxurious life on the ground, and that doesn't change when I'm in the air, even if I can afford it. I just want it be as safe and efficient as possible.
Low cost carriers are fine if we could just board the damn plane as soon as you get at the airport without the faff that comes with it !
me too, i gladly pay 189$ from AUS to PDX. People cry "but i gotta pay 25$ for my checked bag!!!" ok then, you pay 550$ and get that checked bag for "Free" with the other airline :D
@@MoonLiteNite it's more than checked bags, it's surly attitudes from the workers, it's seat selection, it's lack of legroom and it's flying with a crowd that should be on a greyhound bus. Also, if your low cost carrier flight is cancelled, good luck getting re-booked anytime soon, you're in for a trip from hell.
To anyone complaining, just ask them if they’d be willing to pay $4,000 in todays dollars for a seat like those old photos, and watch it get awful quiet.
Yes, the prices are closer to Business or First Class. Better service exists today, you just have to pay for it.
And any 1st tier airlines business class these days is FAR better than any "First class" seat of the 1970's. Lay flat vs Big Recliner? There is no comparison. A roast carved on the trolley? Sorry, That doesn't make up for paying so much to SIT UP for a long haul flight. And lets not mention SAFETY now compared to then... @@Secretlyanothername
@@Secretlyanothername Business class today is truly amazing, But I personally rarely get to fly it. But that is okay when an economy ticket is 1/5th the price. ANA's Business class in my opinion is nearly first class tier on many other airlines, but I cannot make that statement as the only time I flew first class was on Air Canada, which isn't that great.
@@linuxman7777 I wouldn't fly Air Canada in any class. A second-tier airline.
A number of years ago I was helping my mother pack in preparation to move house when I came across a plane ticket (Melbourne, Australia to London) from the late 70’s. I was surprised to see that the cost of the ticket was more or less the same dollar value as a modern flight on the same route, and that’s before applying inflation.
Whenever I fly long haul, I seek out flights that offer PE cabins, specifically those that offer a better seat to Economy. For me the journey is just as important as the destination, and too often we take flying for granted. We should always celebrate the marvel that is flight and try to enjoy the experience as much as possible (or at least as far as our budget allows!).
Great video! The issue here relies also on what is not mentioned, but still active. What are the class tariffs used in Economy (M, H, T, W, X, and others, being Y the full economy fare). All these classes of fares in the economy section come with some perks, which allow for reimbursement (or not), luggage allowance, seat allocation (or not), and so on. The RPK is low in economy, whilst the RPK is extremely high in Business, not to mention First.
The golden age is still here, wealthy people charter a private jet.
The "golden age" is also about the innovative engineering and evolution of the aviation industry at the time.
I agree! Flying Lufthansa business often. Its for sure not premium airline anymore, low quality and very old seats & lounges. Aircrew is most of the time great , can not understand why Lufthansa can not travel to US or Dubai for lessons learned.
To me some different cabin class solutions that have been popping up are really interesting. Zipair for example is flying from Tokyo to San Francisco with a lie flat seat without a screen or meal service. But if you are like me 195cm tall and just want to sleep on the flight, an offering like this is really attractive.
I'm a food deliveryman in singapore and i like to listen to your videos. No such thing as unbearably long! I'll even watch if it's 2 hours
In a way I am glad that you did NOT mention “seat pitch”. Because it is a very misleading metric to compare the space you get from one airplane to the next. As the construction of the seat has a very significant impact on the available space you get as a passenger, even if the “seat pitch” is the same.
As an example consider my experience with Copa Airlines in 2017: Their advertised “seat pitch” was 31 inches; but the difference in seat construction was all that mattered between triggering a claustrophobic panic attack or not. In some situations the space available was as low as 40cm in which to squeeze my head.
Then there is also a significant difference between “domestic business class” of legacy carriers in Europe and North America. The single aisle aircraft in Europe will more often than not just block out the middle seat of their standard economy seating to create a 2+2 layout and use a moveable curtain to adapt the cabin size to demand. But the “seat pitch” is more or less the same throughout the whole airplane. So you only get more elbow room and more overhead bin space, but NOT more legroom.
Meanwhile the single aisle planes in North America generally have a genuine 2+2 seat layout that also includes more longitudinal space as well for their “domestic business class”.
In 2021 I had to make a trip from Europe to South America, and due to claustrophobia I had booked in business class. For the intra-european segments I had one in a bulkhead seat and the other not. And in the later I suffered a claustrophobic panic attack.
In the summer of 2023 on a trip to Canada I booked the transatlantic segments in “premium economy” and the canadian segments in “domestic business”. Comparing the two transatlantic airlines (though in the same alliance) with the domestic segments, I can say that international premium economy and domestic business (in North America) have more or less the same seat space and cabin service product.
Instead of using the “seat pitch” as a passenger space metric, a much better passenger space (and comfort) metric would be to measure the space between the headrest of your full upright seat and the fully reclined seat-back in front of you, as well as the same seat configuration at the pelvic level (lumbar support to knee position). Because not everybody wants to (or can) be fully reclined.
Also, putting your carry-on bag under the seat in front of you significantly reduces your legroom and contributes to triggering claustrophobia.
Seat pitch is indeed something that a lot of people think they understand (because it seems straightforward) but I didn't mention it because it's... complicated. Maybe in a separate video.
We had a carrier in the USA called Midwest Express. It was First Class seating with hot meals and wine service for every seat. It made it all the way to the Great Recession be for selling off to Frontier. It had an unusual origin as it started as the corporate transport for paper company Kimberly Clark.
I loved Midwest. Food was great, crew was a pleasure. Planes were old DC9’s with noisy engines but all in all it was a great experience.
I really like ME as well. I flew as a service tech so, even though the tickets were more expensive, the direct flights to some destinations offset the fare increase with the cost of hours saved. I would fly them every chance I got. But the thing that kept them alive for so long was the KC subsidy. Their model was not sustainable.
@ 9:48, regarding secondary airports, haven't this started to change a bit as well? in Sweden Ryanair dumped Skavsta Nyköping for Arlanda
and recently Wizzair also have started flying some routes from Arlanda.
Interesting video, thanks for this!
The whole aviation system has adapted to society in general .. a clown-world! - Glad I got to travel the globe during the better years 1970-2020. - Now "they" could not pay me enough to go through airport security. -
I’ve resisted the impulse to ‘moo’ as I went through a Jetway to an aircraft, half expecting to see cubes of alfalfa on the seats in Steerage…
If only Transporter Technology could be a reality
Insightful.. As usual..
I expect the same kind of experience in coach as traveling on the Long Island Rail Road without the waste of time and security hassle of an airport. Plus people are better dressed on the train.
They may be better dressed but are more slovenly. I lived in Westchester and took Metro north daily. The difference between LIRR and MNRR is night and day. Long Islanders threw trash everywhere, yelled loudly into cell phones, had no manners or couth. Hop on the Harlem, New Haven and Hudson line and it would for the most part be quiet and clean (minus the local trains stopping in the Bronx). Don't get me wrong I love long Island and used to live out there but I'll get on a plane with MNRR riders anyway of the week before LIRR
I used to like travelling by airplane back in 1970s, or even 1980s, but not anymore. Airports now are huge and
crowded and have many controls. Travelling has become an unpleasant experience.
I know this isn't aviation related, but I must say that I love the meme @ 12:49 😄 It's one of my favorite shows. Thank you for another great video!
Back between 2010 and 2014 I went between New York and London frequently, and sometimes got a better night's sleep in the flat seats on those old BA 747s then I did at home.
I’ve flown KLM & Iberia premium economy recently and it was nearly as good as business. I’ve flown business many times for various technical reasons and yes the biz seats are superior. However, the gap between economy and premium economy is so much bigger and worthwhile than the gap between premium economy and business for most 8-13hr flights. Given the price difference there’s a lot of value to be found in premium economy.
I always have a little bit mixed feeling about these divisions in transportation. What i mean by that is, that i hope no one will get tempted to downgrade economy class to the point, where it will actually become uncomfortable to fly, just so more and more people decide to pay more. Economy is used by many and for many it is the door to travel. I wouldnt want to see in future 5 classes in a plane, where the fifth is passengers strapped to pufas in cargo compartment :))
You are forgetting that that very cheap price is the maximum that some travellers can afford to pay and also, if everyone paid for premium the budget seats would be empty, which makes no sense to anyone
I miss the days just buying a ticket and just zoom through checking in and get on air craft ! 1980’s
My first overseas flight was in 1976. Business class then was like Eco Plus now.
Before the pandemic, I managed twice to get a well-priced business class seat for a flight within Europe. Once even slightly cheaper than the economy class for the same flight. In both cases it was a A321 with no special seats for business class, though. They left he middle seat empty, I had priority boarding and there was better lunch.
Sometimes it makes sense to peak into business class and compare prices.
The last FIRST CLASS Delta ticket I bought did not include lounge access because it was 30 minutes too short of a flight, Delta has too many restrictions on access to their lounges. If you buy a FIRST CLASS ticket you should get lounge access period!
I would say that the statements "premium economy is ripping of the customers" and "premium economy is the most profitable part of the airlines operations" are not at all contradictory.
Dude, the fares and seats are all market driven. Only a fundamental misunderstanding of free markets would cause you to blame the airlines for what their customers demand.
I think that Jet Blue's Mint product is fine in the air. Good food and comfortable seats. I have used it many times, but I have mostly switched to others (primarily Delta) because of the service on the ground. They don't have lounges -- and their hub at Kennedy is a construction site outside, so you have to go around 400 meters outdoors with your luggage to get to where a car service can pick you up. And some people just can not do that.
This may sound crazy but crazy things over time have been coming true. There are groups, states, and nations already planning on restricting pleasure air travel with personal carbon allowances enforced through Central Banks Digital Currencies in the future to save the earth. Air travel creates 2% of CO2 and they can't have it. Australia only creates 1% and that nation is hell bent on going back to cave man days. We already have 15 minute ghettos being started to restrict auto travel and limit movement. These same people are messing with the food supplies so don't air travel will be exempt from the madness.
I have been flying domestic USA the last few years on Delta. For flexibility I choose fully refundable fares and often choose what they call Comfort Class. This is an economy seat with additional legroom. I pay about $40-$60 additional for these seats for flights about 2-4 hours duration. Twice I did upgrade to domestic first class when prompted by Delta for about $90, but those promotions are now in excess of $300. I have used ULCC in the past but found the experience unpleasant. I did fly LCC JetBlue in the past but there lack of reliability due to broken planes and few spares caused me to discontinue flying with them. My son flew JetBlue this year and experienced a rejected takeoff due to a technical issue and waited several hours for a replacement aircraft.
Did plenty economy flights and it was all super relaxed. Im not paying twice or quadruple the price to get there equally quick with 10cm more legroom. To my observation it is more a status thing that moves people to pay premium. People are funny animals.
I'm not a large person at 5 foot 8 and 170 lbs but the issue usually isn't legroom. The seats are more narrow than the human body