3V Steel: Custom vs Production Edge Retention (Erickson v Benchmade)
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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Hi knife maker here, I wanted to mention something about the rope cut edge retention tests all the RUclipsrs do, including yourself. I think that cutting the rope itself is not what is dulling the blades 100%. I think the rope is having less of an impact in the apex than the wood you are cutting under the rope. I think if you do rope cuts in the air you will see a higher number of cuts, higher than doing them on a wooden chopping block.I notice lots of people are doiing them on hickory and other very hard woods as well, which is just increasing the pressure and wear on the apex of the blade. I do think the rope is having some effect on the steel, but not as much as a direct press down on hardwood. Think of it in terms of a kitchen knife slicing soft tomato on a chopping board, then you wonder how your 60+ HRC knife got dull chopping soft vegetables, it's actually the contact with the hard wood chopping board that dulls the knife, rather than the tomato doing it.
About your other edge retention estimate, the HRC is mainly the cause of edge retention, but other factors come into it and the edge stability, like grain size, additional elements like Nitrogen and vanadium. Some elements pair up well with some elements and terrible with others. Vanadium and Nitrogen will form Vanadium nitrides which improve wear resistence and edge stability. But Nitrogen does not interact with Chromium very well. Sometimes Chromium can benefit an edge sometimes it can be a drawback, it can stop an edge being very fine, so you may find a very thin edge with certain steel is terrible, and it requires a more robust edge due to the size of certain carbides or grain created. Some steels perform badly with a fine edge, and some steels only perform at their maximum potential with a fine edge. You really do have to tailor your edge bevel accordingly depending on what steel type you have. HRC is a good general rule of thumb but only when we are talking straight high carbon steel, when you start adding things like cobalt, vanadium, nitrogen, chromium etc it changes the nature of the edge and what kind of grain size you end up with. this can be the cause of chipping as well, some people assume blades chip because the HRC is high, but it might actually be because of the large chromium "chunks" ripping out the apex, there are variables.
Edited for typos.
I totally get what you mean about whats doing the edge degradation, the board or the rope, or both and if both, at which ratio. Its why I’ve kept the same board through these years as something of a constant. I’m fully aware these aren’t gospel scientific findings but hope they scratch some kind of itch people have to see action and not just anecdotes about all these steels we are being sold as ‘better, harder, tougher, etc’. Cheers for the input
@@CedricAda Thanks for doing the tests as well, even if it is the board and not the rope, it doesn't really matter, you are still getting solid data out of it. I mean even if you were to just do a cut and drag test through the wood without the rope it would still yield results. It's hard to say exactly what % the rope and the wood have their part in the dulling. The test isn't in any way invalid, thanks again.
"HRC is mainly the cause of edge retention" actually its the edge angle that has the biggest effect. This is not really a factor in his analysis because he already sharmens all blades to same agle, just an FYI. knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/19/steel-edge-retention/
Nitrogen doesn't Interact with Chromium very well?
@@FearNoSteel Yes Nitrogen is less likely to form Chromium Nitrides, than Chromium forming Chromium carbides.
Glad to see/hear that you are recovering quickly, Pete!
Keep up the amazing work. Been loving these latest intros.
I appreciate the effort you put into all of these videos. If we don't ask the questions, we will never find the answers.
SMKW did a nice history lesson on 3V it has the composition of Vasco Die from the 60s
There’s so much that goes into making a steel awesome. Like you said BBB , and KK Knives Switzerland are pushing the limits of awesomeness. Keep up the great work Pete
Just in case anyone was wondering, I used to sharpen my 3V spyderco Tuff on Arkansas stones before I upgraded my sharpening setup. Definitely not optimal, but it does work
It is interesting, there’s a lot of folks out there that will say these exotic steals are just marketing. For some of these production companies that may not be untrue. If you take 3V and run it at perhaps 57 Rockwell, It’s going to have edge performance about like 52100 at 62 Rockwell. I remember the huge kerfuffle a few months back when people started testing the hardness of these production knives in super steals. It’s not that the production companies can’t make them as hard as a custom maker, it’s that if they do it it’s hard on tooling, and because you would be reducing toughness you would have potentially more warranty claims. These companies are in business to make money and are willing to compromise performance for durability, and ease of production. It’s not that they can’t he treat them that way, in fact I send my Rex 121 to bos heat treating, and they get it exactly where I tell them to get it within a half point. I called for 70 for my last batch they got it at 69.5 which I verify On my tester. For those who don’t know bos does all Bucks heat treating.
that's why Bucks 420HC and S30V run circles around much more, on paper, premium steels. a well heat treated mediocre steel will be tougher and hold an edge longer than a high end steel treated badly (and then, even worse, ground hotly). that's why benchmade is awful :P
I have a bark river in cpm 154 and it’s trash. Notched my blade cutting through some wood. Sent it in the they reground the blade and sent it back. The very day I got it back I was cutting some veggies on a cutting board and the wood rolled the blade. This is supposed to be a super steel. So I sent it in again and they reprofiled the blade so much that half the steel is gone. Whatever. I’ll stick to customs off Bladeforums. You get a lot more for your money anyways.
@@praetor47 " that's why benchmade is awful" Not every Benchmade is alike. I have a properly hardened 200 Puukko and sharpening her is considerably tougher than my knives in 154 CM or 440C.
@@Dhari1 you have just explained why they're awful. QC varies so widely you have them as soft as swiss cheese or as hard as the pope in an orphanage. so you have to play the rockwell lottery and hope you win. that's what's called in professional circles "fucking awful quality control not even worthy of aliexpress specials". it's almost as bad as Seiko and their alignments
@@herculesrockefeller4584bark river for ya
I feel like every video I find myself thinking “best opening yet”. Your the man Pete thanks for the content.
Thanks for the Shout Out Pete :D
The hate campaign at the beginning is hilarious. Thanks Cedric for the bug control!!
Thickness behind the edge makes a huge difference
Great video! I’d love to see you test out one of Lon Humphrey’s knives in 52100. I just did some heavy testing with my Bark River JX5 in 3V and Lon’s Retribution in 52100 and his 52100 outperformed the JX5 in 3V
That's the steel, that made me a steel snob! The reasons? : Sharpens easy and fast, like a common carbon steel, yet it holds it's super sharp edge longer, than any other steel I have tried.All steels will lose their super scary sharp edge sooner or later, 52100 keeps it the longest. As you already found, it also holds a working edge, close to Super steel's edge retention. It is a tough steel, that can handle to baton chop a nail or a screw for example, but if it reach it's limits, it tends to roll and not chip (that's another huge plus) Finaly, I don't know of any other steel, that has all these qualities. My search for the best and most suitable steel for a fixed blade, ended, when I tried, forged ballbearing 52100 steel.Enjoy!
I own an Erickson custom knife in aeb-l. It’s my favorite knife. It’s my sharpest knife. And seeing this video makes me happy to know the quality built in to it.
You might not have the knowledge of someone who does metallurgy, but you have done something little to no other person has done and built a database of how each piece of steel performs at different hrc, edge angle, edge coarseness, different manufacturers. You have more practical front line experiance hands down. Cedric is a good boy, Ada is too but seems like he has to go to cat poop anonymous XD. Thanks man really love your videos. You are awesome, don't "cut" yourself short you are doing amazing.
What a great channel this is. Thank you Pete. So glad your sounding & feeling better. Keep up the fantastic work. PLEASE. Cheers from America 🔪👈
Amazing intro Pete! Really loving what Erickson is doing. Definitely on the list.
Glad to see you heal by the day ! thx a lot ! and always very good choice of music !!
Pete, how about a companion goal for 2020, for the least "sharpenable" knife, one that, after you apply your patent-pending sharpening methodology, produces a blade that cuts...10...or 5 times? I hear that Benchmade is working on such a knife, code-named the "Stone", made of pebble, with an MSRP of $300 USD.
Like the goal. Sounds interesting. We are all going to bltch if the knives are entirely unattainable though.
We have the same goals for this year
My latest run of rex 121 was at 69.5
Cedric -
Flies - Regular sky raisins
Bees - Chilli sky raisins
Best intro so far
Benchmade has bumped their Rockwell up to 60/62 on the new 200 puukko.
Like the vid. Do miss the voice. Glad it worked out for you 👍. Look forward to BBB vids at some point
Love the videos and music. Purely the best.
Grats on the tongue dog. Gl in the future.
400 seems quite high for 3V. Pretty impressive.
Cpm 3v is toughness steel, is working for impact (chopping hard thing like wood or anything)..
i've often looked at the pile of twisted sisal fibres generated in these tests and wondered if it would be useful for something. maybe turn a by-product into something lucrative. and by jove, i think this evening i've got it: pete's super-durable merkins!
_~ one colour available, strawberry-blonde ~ may cause urticaria ~_
It would make good filling for an archery target.
@@ponchowizard5182 ah... yes, that's a bit more sensible.
@@ciderandthorazine I do the same with wood chips and sawdust
So... are the new pukkoo 220s better than the old ones? Or should I skip the pukkoo now? Just thought about buying one. Dunno much about steel 😅 sry!
That intro was hilarious.
This was a really great episode.
Fantastic. Funny and informative.
Tungsten carbide is over70 )
What is three thee?
Oh, were you saying three v?
Bwuaaahaaa bwuaaahaaa bwuaaahaaa 😁😁😁
Thanks for the video my Bladed Brother 👍⚔️
I wanna see s35vn done with a custom HT. it's one of my fav steels but it's done poorly by most and hard to get good examples
He did test a Chris Reeves knife I believe.
I assume every steel benefits from a heat treat designed for the specific chemistry. Is this done by trial & error or does the steel recipe dictate how the the process should proceed? Can a good heat treat guy just look at a breakdown of the elements on a computer and know how the steel will react to certain temperatures, thermal cycling, tempering, etc?
Both.
BBB is going to give you an amazing blade. His heat treats give me pryapism so call a doctor if it lasts over 4 hours - the cut tests I mean.
If Benchmade is going to screw around with their steels they need to tell people before we buy their knives . I was soo pissed after I bought my Bailout with 3V from them , 3V is already super tough and has great edge retention , now it's like a super tough 8CR13MOV, and that's not meant to be funny , it's actually really sad .
true that, they should warranty the okd blades for new ones if they did harden them up in a later batch, which I hear they did
@@CedricAda This is the first I heard about that , I'll have to check it out .
That ending had me dying. Do you know any custom knife makers that do knives in vanax?
Shannons Steel Labs will make something for ya
@@CedricAda Yo can try Dulo Knives
You can try Dulo Knives
Dulo are good too, Maarten at DBK loves em
Seconding Dulo's Vanax.
Now that's the way you do 3V in a smaller blade. Benchmade needs to take a lesson from this. Also, glad that you no longer sound like a sick frog.
Where DID that dawg hide the money?
That's just dirty. You get a like just or the dogs..... you better earn it! Lol!
200 Puukko or Lionsteel M4 ? I 've read,that the Lionsteel M4 is 1 mm behind the edge, which sounds too much. How thick is the 200 Puukko behind the edge, anybody knows? does it cut slice, with that low saber grind, better than the M4 does?
Greek Veteran the lionsteels have always been thick. Even the T5, which has a nice tall blade was very thick. Plus thr SR1 and TRE folders ive had too. But if you’ve got a decent sharpening method down its fixable. Definitely the biggest general flaw with them IMO
@@CedricAda I wish you have fast recovery. Thank's for the response and all the info!
Neither of those is DELTA3V.
Dismissed.
anything else other then s30v benchmade will fuck up... the m4 is decent but could be harder aswel... also calling anything that isnt hard enough ''very tough'' is a cop out... 40 hrc 1095 is touch as fuck ...
The benchmade 3v is very tough though. Edge cut through a coconut without failing in my test
@@CedricAda thats great mate but i have to say its just a side effect of beeing too soft 🙂 also 621hrc 3v will probably also do the trick.
Saisal ffs
You should be more selective of the ads you allow on your videos
Ahh, an Ada supporter eh
Or Cedric lol
Ada hates Australia
So sorry bro went for a rewatch and saw I had disliked this video instead of liking it. Maybe I like a dog in shoes
Try Vanadis 10 it is get 3000 +cuts)
Anyone else's puukko seem a bit weafy now?
Benchmade dropped the ball imo
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Benchmade is overrated knifes.. it is poor quality
I know it's extremely fashionable these days to shit on Benchmade--this channel has come to specialize in it--but you're going way out on a limb if you think an obscure guy who's only been making knives since 2014 knows more about heat treatment than they do.
I'm not even sure the steel of the Benchmade has worse edge retention; I think this display might have been smoke and mirrors. The Benchmade Puuko is substantially smaller and lighter than the other knife, and so has to work harder and longer to get through the rope, which is going to take a greater toll on the blade. It will also be in longer and more forceful contact with the cutting board, which will dull the blade more.
In any case, if I did a test that yielded results as wild and unexpected as this one did (over twice the cuts from the same steel...really?) I'd suspect there was something wrong with the test or that I should be careful drawing conclusions from it.
Benchmade altered the heat treatment after this initial batch to harden them up to hold the edge for longer
And as I said, a large company would do large batch heat treatment for many reasons inclusive of behind the scenes stuff, and for error reduction. Its absolutely the case that a custom maker will research a different sequence to draw out targeted aspects of the steel. Look in what guys like TripleB handmade are doing. Not even saying that ‘longer lasting equals better’ but this one does seem to last longer. You can check out the hundreds of so video of tests I’ve done (I dont claim to be perfectly scientific but I do it for my own interest) if you are interested, otherwise happily move on if you don’t like benchmade being slightly called on something they tacitly admitted to and later changed.
Ah you keep editing your post. A steel being six whole points lower on the rockwell scale cutting a whole lot less is not a wild and unexpected result. And this channel has not come to specialize in hating on benchmade, I love their knives. But I also don’t have a blind allegience to a brand that makes things, so am happy to speak on when any company does something odd