OK, now I blame you! This is all your fault. I was about to buy a “simple” PID controller for $800.00 from a company that makes stills. Now I am going to make my own PID controller for my still, and for my beer brewing. I am going to get a PID that I can program on my laptop for less than $100.00, plus the 60 amp solid state relay, and the other miscellaneous parts for less than $200.00 total. I will run 11,000 watts of ultra low wattage heating elements. HOW MUCH FUN THIS WILL BE!!!! Thank you for your awesome videos, and your excellent teaching skills. I am now addicted.
Outstanding presentation sir. I stumbled across this while searching for " How to make a curing oven" I'll be watching your wiring vid next since you made my decision easier for how to control heat. Much appreciation sir, Thank you.
Very Weil explained George, Thank you for the great video and explanation. To bad most professors are not as well equipped to teach as you, you are a natural born professor!! Phillip Hall
I built a PID controller using all of your Data. It works simply great and since I am new to distilling it sure makes things a lot more simple for me. Thanks for your videos
To help give some clarification on what PID actually means, think of it like this: all 3 P, I, and D control methods use the difference between the value (temperature reading) and the set point to determine a response. Proportional uses the instantaneous difference, integral uses the accumulation of past difference data, and derivative uses the current rate of change in the difference value. Combined they work as an often more effective control method as each will supplement the shortfalls of the others. Overall control systems and PID is a very complicated but interesting subject and I would recommend looking into the specifics more if you're curious but don't feel bad if it's a bit over your head. This subject is taught at a very high level in university engineering curriculum as well as graduate level courses
Shane, Thanks for the in depth explanation and you are all over it. You are also right, this is a subject taught in engineering and at graduate levels. The challenge for me is to explain and demonstrate the workings without losing interest on the receiving end. Your comment is much appreciated. George
Nice one George. Just spent over 4 hours watching your video's - fantastic work and thank you so much for the help and advice. A TV career beacons. Best wishes from the U K.
I searched on the Internet for how PID works. Your test based on visible light was incredible. I want to use PID controller for the distilling process. Thank you.
dude thank you I've watched 2 hours worth of videos on pid's today because im trying to build a stove for plastics but yours has been more informative than any of them. Also after watching your video I'm kinda thinking of using a pid for a machine to take care of my wife in the bedroom. Boop! Not enough? Okay! Little more! Boop! Okay there we go! Boop! Hahahahahaha thanks man
Wow George I'm a new subscriber and love your videos, I graduated to upgrading to PID control that's why I'm here to learn!!! Thank you Buddy for all you do!!
Hi George. Thanks for your video. We all learn from each other. In watching, I noticed several things. The first was that the on/off cycle (white board demo) looked like a saw tooth wave yet your explaination sounded like square. The later portion with a florescent bulb was obviously square (on/off). Your explaination sounded like a demo with an incandescant bulb hooked up to a rheostat where the operator (controller) started out twisting from full on to full off and gradually twisted less and less: less on/less off until the change was minimal. Meanwhile, the wattage (bright to dim) over time stabilized into a small ripple change. The resolution of the ripple is based on the frequency and change. Check out the Arduino videos on controlling AC voltage. Create comparison. Cheers.
Here's my layman summation: We often are PIDs. When you're turning that heat up and down trying to cook something, taking in the sensory data of the food cooking, visual, olfactory. We are often operating it seems as very elaborate organic PIDs.
A PID controller is excellent for holding a constant temperature but a still doesn't operate at a constant temperature throughout the distilling process. A still requires ever increasing amounts of heat in order to keep the distillation going as the ratio of ethanol to water decreases throughout the run. Ethanol starts to come off the still at 174 F and one constantly has to increase the temperature, depending on the flow rate from the condenser, to 203 F which typically completes a run. A PID cannot self regulate these temperature requirements thus requiring an operator to monitor the condenser flow rate and make temperature adjustments. This monitoring and adjustment is where the art of running a still comes into play. A PID is a great way to get your charge up to temp and holding it there prior to distilling but beyond that it offers no advantage to the home distiller.
Thank you. I have one of those PID controllers, I rebuilt my father's SEAL 210 dry mount press with it, removing the worn out manual controls that were way off their settings and now correctable. I didn't understand the controller and manually set all the variables and didn't get it to work just right, I'll reset my PID unit and let it try to learn it out on it's own.
Barley and Hops Brewing hello, the auto tune worked almost perfectly, I did gave to offset the PID from what I was reading on the face of the platen by a few degree and adjust the dead band to 3 deg. Now the face temperature stays within 2-4 degrees of the SV, HUGE improvement over the old bimetal control unit it came with
Hi, George, I like your videos. I also would like to see them keep coming. I know that you have made it this far in life, without My input. LOL. But Please be careful. I saw another video that you did on the heating element electric cap. Awesome video, I would not have been as brave holding that coupling by hand and drilling. (vise-grips or something to hold that coupling) I also would not be as brave as you in that small beaker filled with water playing with electric. LOL. Very good videos please keep them coming and please be safe.
Love your information! It helped me figure out I have the wrong type of controller for my needs. I am trying to use a controller to control a wood drying kiln and the controller has to control a dehumidifier compressor, so it cannot pulse the power or it will burn up contactor and compressor. So what type of controller do I need for this application? Sure would help if you or anyone else knows.
I'm not sure that is the best way to describe the three PID terms. For clarity, think of the output from the controller. The proportional term drives the output "proportional" to the deviation from setpoint. The integral term is the product of "deviation from setpoint multiplied by the time it has been away from setpoint (the controller will ramp up or down if the process value doesn't come back to SV. And the derivative term acts on how fast the process value is changing. If the controller senses the temperature just blasting off quickly, it will clamp down on the output based on the rate of change of the PV... Tuning a PID controller is done by varying the gain values you attribute to each separate term... Does that make sense?
It still looks like it is either on or off. But I do understand that the ons/offs as short and they seem to keep the temperature in a very narrow range. This is how the 98% efficient natural gas furnace in my house works. But I did t know, until this video, it was called a PID. I do have a question if this thread is still active: generally speaking, is it better (in terms of taste) to have a slow steady distillation or is the final taste not really affected by the distillation speed; therefore, Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead and let’s get this puppy done!! Thank you George. By the way, VERY INTERESTING!
PID controllers relate to a transfer function which models the devices output for any input value. The thermocouple subtracts the measured value from the set point and the remaining signal is called the error signal. This signal feeds a 3-term amplifier for PID and this amplifies the error signal, the integral (all of the previous error) and the derivative error (the rate of change of the error) and sums these three signals. This is a form of closed-loop feedback so it will continuously iterate. Eventually the error will tend to within 0.5% of the set point and this is the steady state error (the error as time tends towards infinity).
Good video George, great personality and detail. Can you make a video explaining what figures to put in for PID and how they work together to reach stabilisation at set point.
George. I really like your enthusiasm during these videos and found this one very interesting. How will a P&ID controller work with a fridge/freezer compressor? I don't think compressor units are made to function at for example 30% power, but I can be wrong.
Hi George.....I just completed building the inkbird PID temp controller following your most excellent tutorial. Everything works great. My question is about tuning. Would you please direct me to the vid that addresses setting parameters where the inkbird progressively "ramps" up to a set point. The other problem I'm having is establishing the on/off set points. For instance, my inkbird "screams" up to say 180F set point, the SSR opens, the temp drops down to 150F, relay closes, temp screams to 180F on and on.... I'm looking to tighten up the operating envelope. You're a great instructor! Thanks for everything. Jerry
You can add very important safety feature to your system as SSR sometimes go stuck ON when the heating element is starting to fail. This will cause uncontrollable raise in controlled temperature to maximum without any limits. What you need is a RELAY or CONTACTOR (if the heater element is 3 phase) and connect it to second (ALARM) port of PID controller. This will switch off power to the heater if PID detects SSR failure. Also the incandescent bulb will show your idea much better as it is proportional in nature instead of fluorescent which is on and off
Can a PID controller, instead of governing the pot element, and controlling the boiler, be attached to a Motorised ball valve, and control the flow of column cooling water instead? I figure it'd have to do TWO jobs, then... Water open, then Water closed... Unlike an element where power off = cooling down, valve position should hold temp
Hi George, I’m having problems with my ink bird, I’m using it to vaporize oxalic acid for bees, I have it set for 344° and it will go up to 410° melts my solder that is holding my copper tube and then back down to 340°. It fluctuates so much and I don’t know how to narrow it down.
I am planning to build my first pid. I have a pot still with a thumper. I'm wondering if the best place to put the Thermocoupler is as the vapor leaves the thumper?
I was wondering if a (STC-1000) be used and wired the same way as the (PID)? I would like for you to do a video of wiring one of them up? Thanks and keep up the great work!
Hey George. Thanks for all your videos. I've learned a lot. I was hoping you or maybe someone here could answer a question on pid controllers. If using the mile hi 2 in 1 reflux. If you increase the power on the pid can you compensate for the additional water vapor by increasing the water flow to the chiller in the tower? In doing so is there additional risk of scorching what's in the kettle? Or can you push the pid all the way up and add extra cooling to the tower Condensor? Basically trying to reduce overall runtime but want to be sure I'm not risking scorching anything. Thanks. Hope that makes sense.
Hi George. This seems to be a real hot potato topic in the distilling forums. Using a PID to control a (for example) a forced reflux still. I have some observations and questions. The boiling point of a wash is determined by the ABV of the mixture. The boiling point of the wash increases as the ABV goes down. Controlling the heating input contributes only to how vigorously it boils. If the boiling point of the wash (at the time) is, say, 80c and you set the PID on, say, 90c - the temperature of the wash CANNOT increase - only boil more vigorously. Is it correct to call this as a temp.controller and not a power controller (when applied to stills)? I think this is very important to get accross to new beginners (like me). So that being said...if I run a forced reflux column (with cooling management) - I can't see the logic of installing the thermo couple on the top of the column (afrter the column condenser). Wouldn't it be better to install it into the pot and use it as a manual power controller for the hotplate? Or am I completely wrong? I would really appreciate you input on this! Cheers!
Not such a hot potato topic after all. This really all depends on how well you can manage temperature. Think of it like this - the magic point in the still is where the valor passes from the column to the condenser, if you know the temp at that point you know (for sure) that you are vaporizing ethanol. On the other hand if you only know the temp of the mash origin (in the kettle) you are simply guessing. It's like trying to maintain 50 MPH in you car by watching the tachometer. The tachometer will give you and indication of how fast your engine is running and the amount of power it is providing but does not give you the fidelity of how fast you are traveling. The speedometer does that. It's kind of the same principle - a probe in the kettle will be like watching the tachometer. It is possible to extrapolate what temps work best by doing so but I have found that the most direct method of temp management is to have the probe at the top of the column. Your biggest challenge is balancing the temp since you are pre-cooling the valor with water to achieve a reflux action. It is easy to over shoot or under shoot the temp via water flow and you find yourself chasing the temp by adjusting both the heat and water flow together. ABV does change in the mash over time so at regular intervals it would be necessary to change the boiling point of the mash as the temp needed to separate the ethanol changes. This is true even in a pot still and a lost on some people. It all has to do with temp management. Hope this helps George
Hats off for taking the time to write back George, thank you! This has got to be the single best and most informative reply to this question on the internett. Believe me I know - I've used many hours researching my design. What a great analogy about the car, speed and RPM's. It makes perfect sense. The reason I'm so hung up on the PID is because I have done a run or two on a friend's still which had a PID control (thermo couple on top of the column) and I think it is an ingenious way to apply control. The column however had minimal forced reflux capabilities. My only remaining worry is that if the hotplate takes its cue from the thermo couple on top of my column in, for example, full reflux the engine will be revving way too high. My reasoning is that the area directly over the deflag (a very effective deflag) will be far cooler than the area under the deflag. That said, I have just drilled and tapped the hole for my couple into the end cap of the column AND drilled a hole for a thermometer in the pot. Love gadgets and it will give me something more to look at. Besides race cars have their tacometers in the center of the dash ;) As I get to know the still I think the temperature on the PID will be an arbitrary number(s) that I will learn along the way. Keep up the amazing work and your enthusiasm George. You contribute enormeously to the collective wisdom of our community! Awesome videos - Thanks !!
Hi George. I have managed to get a stc1000 which is all that is available at this time. It has a short plastic covered thermocoupler or probe. Can it be used? I am stuck on how to mount it if it can be used. Have spoken with professor google but I don’t see this as something anyone has ever covered. Obviously can’t just be stuck into the copper as it will effect the reading. Any way you can give advice? Thanks as usual for your great coverage. Am learning so much from you. Regards.
Is the performance and energy savings gain difference between using this system compared to one which employs a thermostat with a very low differential, (for example those historically used in tropical fish tanks) big enough to warrant the expense of retrofitting existing systems, or is this device aimed at new installations? For example, will my Cardinal Tetra be more comfortable?
I have all 17 settings wrote down in order, but no one will tell you which program you use to set the temperature. How do you set the temperature you want. IP, SC, DIG, OP, CTRL, HC, RUN, ALP, HIAL, LOW, PD, DF, PID, CTL, P, I, D, 🤔
I need your help as for the pid rex c100,I cant achieve the exact temparature range . Please tell me the prices in the commants and what they mean .My basic problem is that I easily loose the proper temparature
Hi George! Thank you for your excellent videos, I am hooked! I have a question about the PID. I am using a ramp/soak for my glass kiln. I understand the ramping up part however I will need to drop temp from a 20 minute hold @ 760 deg. C. to 515 deg. C (as quickly as possible) and then hold that temp of 515 deg. C for 30 minutes. Do any of your videos demo the segment programming for this cooling stage/hold?
It's in the manual that came with your controller. If you're stuck, you're overthinking it. Have you thought of setting the next temp to the same for hold and lower for cool?
PIDs do not fine tune anything. They do exactly what is determined by the three coefficients. You have to work those out yourself. There is no machine learning in a PID.
I had a T500, and constantly dicking around with the water to keep a consistent temperature became old fast. Just got a beautiful Brewhaus 8 gallon with a 3 inch column, so super excited. If I understand correctly, with the PID controller, I can set the water flow at a reasonable pace, and control the temperature with the electric heating element?
Lets say your set value is 78 degrees Celsius, The perceived value drops to 75 degrees Celsius and the PID determines the heating element needs a 12 % increase in power to bring the temp back to 78 degrees Celsius , does the PID increase the power by turning the power on 100% full power for a predetermined amount of time so the proportionate amount equals a 12% increase in power, or does the PID turn on the power that would equal proportionately 12% of the available wattage of electricity to the heating element? Let me clarify, does the PID increase the heat by turning the power 100% on for a adequate amount of time, or does it increase the heat by turning on the power by the amount of wattage or amps sent to the heating element? You say PROPORTIONAL does that mean 100 % power over a period of time? Or does that mean just the amount of power? I'm trying to describe this so you understand. Does the PID essentially just turn the power 100% on or 100% off like a thermostat? Or does the PID regulate power to the heating element?
i am looking for the answer to this as well. the way they are wired in a heating circuit , it seems impossible for the pid to regulate the energy ie 30% power output . i think it can only switch full on or off. confused.
Many controllers only output a digital signal, i.e. on or off, this is time proportioned according to what level of output is required using PWM, so at 100% power the output will be on continously, at 50% the ouput will switch on and off so that half the time is on, half is off, 25% power would be tuned on for 25% of time and off for 75% of time. So for example, the lowest setting usualy available on most controllers to opperate a SSR is 1 second, this means the lowest switching repetion rate on/off is 1 second. So at 25% output power the controller will activate the output for 0.25 seconds every second, 50% would be 0.5 seconds etc. The controller will determine how long to activate the output acording to the setpoint and measured process value. There are however also controlers that give an analogue output, for example 0-10v, so at zero power there would be no output and 100% power would be 10v output. (usualy output would be 4-20ma), these can give an almost infinite control over the process, used in conjunction with a phase angle controler it is possible to have very precise control.
I have watched all your videos on PID's. I have been trying to wire it for 3 months without any luck. I wonder how long it will take to figure out the setting. It is so frustrating.
Hey George I am interested in using your videos to build a 220 heating system inside my smoker. Any videos of yours I could refer too on this build? From the ones ive watched you do an excellent job. Thanks buddy in advance
George I built me a pid mypin T Series, can’t believe it and it works but I can’t get the temperature to balance 2days now 18 hrs a day and still no balance.... went in to settings proportional and integral and derivative all off. Try it temp still don’t match.... turn all p.i.n back on more hrs go by temp still 3 to 4 degrees difference. Never balanced .... what is going wrong... I thought building would be the hard part that’s the easy part with see the great videos.... But you are going to have to make a video on step by step on going in all the settings and we’re to set them and and need set on or set off... this could be up for sale I’m just not smart enough to get it to balance... my dial controller stays at a steady... so if can help a would appreciate it.... I have call ever phone number and have left message, we’re u at my friend lol
Charlie, I am planning to do a video on the internal parameters of the PID and specifically the P,I and D settings. These do need to be set correctly otherwise the controller will not know how to balance. Set your P at 1.00 the I at 240.0 and the D at 90.00 and then try it again.
HELP!! I have the ITC-106vh running a chest freezer for serving beer, when it hits temp the compressor activates and deactivates very quickly. I am scared the compressor will burn out. The parameters and instructions are very confusing can someone help me make a parameters please?!
first off.. thanks for your awesome tutorials, they have helped so much in setting up my brew system. Now for a Question. I have my pid controller all wired up and the element works fine. but the thermocouple temperature is way off. is there any thing I can do to fix this?
Hi, Love the videos! could the PID be used to separate heads hearts and tails? for example set the PID temp the top end of the foreshots. then once the still stops producing alcohol that means all the bad compounds have been removed and you can bump the PID to the temp associated with the end of the heads? etc etc. Sorry if this has been covered already! I'm working through the videos! Cheers
Yes you can but each batch is a little different so this is a moving target. There is no easier way than knowing what you are doing when you make the cuts. If there was a button to push to make these cuts for you someone would have found it by now.
+Barley and Hops Brewing LLC, thanks for the replies man! I totally understand that the PID doesn't make it easier. or can set points etc, I'm looking into getting the Still Spirits Pot Still. im totally new to the whole concept of distilling, so I'm getting my head around using a PID with the Still. you are a guru master!
This is Two Georges the PID controllers that you get they do work fine why you should try building a analog meter with a control knob you get more accurate than the PID because it's up either going at 2 or down appointment to and you can just run it at a steady pace. But the other reason was I apologize for calling you on your vacation didn't know it and I thought you were very rude so if you are that rude to people that call you maybe you shouldn't do the videos anymore thank you Mike
Mike, I apologize if I offended you. When you called and I answered I did start by telling you I was on vacation with family but could take a short question as I had limited time. This developed quickly into a longer conversation that I could not commit to so I ask if I could get back to family as we were being called into the restaurant for our reservation. I meant no ill will nor intent. I do apologize. George
Hey George! How's it going? I got a question about PID's (and I did watch your other video on wiring them, which was easy enough to understand). If the PID measures the temperature, what heats it up? It's not conducting heat, right? Perhaps you addressed this and I simply didn't catch it. Also, what is the difference between a PID and a kegerator thermometer that controls electricity from the wall to the fridge? I am missing something, but don't know what. haha :)
+Shad Hall The PID doesn't heat up it controls the heater. It measures precise temperature and calculates the need for power to maintain a constant temp without cycling. The kegerator control you talk about only turns on and off at a set point but does not calculate any differences in present, past temps and timing like a PID does. Hope this helps By the way- we miss you around here George
+Barley and Hops Thanks for the quick reply. I think what was throwing me off was how the temperature kept changing on the PID. The light bulb was merely as an electrical current indicator, right? So, what was causing the PID meter reading to change several degrees? I know the ambient room temperature wasn't fluctuating that much.
+Shad Hall That was the thermocouple sensor I had inserted in the vapor stream. Sort of like an electronic thermometer, you must have missed that part on the video. We wired it into the PID before we turned it on. George
i need to control 5 2000 watt heating elements to maintain a temperature of a tank at constant value for my research project....... can i do that with a single PID controller
@@MuhammadSaad-uk6xd to run 5 elements at 2,000 watts each is a total of 10,000 watts, divide that by your voltage of 440 volts and you get 22.7 amps of power needed to run it. A 40 amp SSR on your PID controller should do it.
Has anyone come up with a way for a PID to control the water flow on a Turbo 500. The water pressure varies allot where I live driving the temperatures wild.
Can you tell me if a Rex c 100 can control heating and cooling? So for example if I wanted to run a heater inside a refrigerator and control the refrigerator with the same Rex c 100.
You cannot control both at the same time with the REX. Not real sure you can set it to control cooling either. Check the wiring diagram and see if it has a setting for cooling. Should be obvious if it does. If not the TD 4 will control heat or cooling but not together. George
+Barley and Hops Brewing LLC I don't want the heat on at the same time as the cool but if it needs cooling it will turn on the refrigerator and if it needs heat it will turn on the heater.
That's a good one. I am sure there is a way to do this. First though is to double up the controllers, two TD 4's would be perfect. One for heating and one for cooling (of course assuming that you would never have both happening at the same time). You could even use the same power supply (split between them) for both.
any help my controler is new ( not my first ) when setting the temp . it just passes my set temp ( keeps getting hotter and hotter doesnt stop ) thanks
Make sure you are not set in manual mode. That's what it sounds like. I am only guessing since I don't know what type of controller you have but this is the most common problem.
Not sure what you mean by this. If you could add a little more information like PID model number and precisely what is happening I think I can help. George
The challenge would be finding a thermocouple size to fit exactly where the thermometer goes so the cooling water doesn't leak. There are probably work arounds for the creative.
Hi! I was wondering if yoy could help. I have a controller on my kiln. I need help to set the ramp and soak times and temperatures! Please and thanks. I'm a bit of a simple simon. 😊😊
hello sir could you pleas help me in something i had a JCS33A Shinko Temp controller and i found that you need to set the Low height value of SV , but i don't know why would you need to do that when you already set it in the main menu and another thing what is the difference between heating and cooling output and finally what is the ARW setting ?
OK, now I blame you! This is all your fault. I was about to buy a “simple” PID controller for $800.00 from a company that makes stills. Now I am going to make my own PID controller for my still, and for my beer brewing. I am going to get a PID that I can program on my laptop for less than $100.00, plus the 60 amp solid state relay, and the other miscellaneous parts for less than $200.00 total. I will run 11,000 watts of ultra low wattage heating elements. HOW MUCH FUN THIS WILL BE!!!! Thank you for your awesome videos, and your excellent teaching skills. I am now addicted.
Outstanding presentation sir. I stumbled across this while searching for " How to make a curing oven" I'll be watching your wiring vid next since you made my decision easier for how to control heat. Much appreciation sir, Thank you.
Very Weil explained George, Thank you for the great video and explanation. To bad most professors are not as well equipped to teach as you, you are a natural born professor!! Phillip Hall
Thanks Phillip.
George
George is great. sent him an email and within 2 hours I had an answer. you made a customer for life.
Whats his email id?
I built a PID controller using all of your Data. It works simply great and since I am new to distilling it sure makes things a lot more simple for me. Thanks for your videos
George thank you! please don't change the way you teach. It was perfect of what I needed
To help give some clarification on what PID actually means, think of it like this: all 3 P, I, and D control methods use the difference between the value (temperature reading) and the set point to determine a response. Proportional uses the instantaneous difference, integral uses the accumulation of past difference data, and derivative uses the current rate of change in the difference value. Combined they work as an often more effective control method as each will supplement the shortfalls of the others. Overall control systems and PID is a very complicated but interesting subject and I would recommend looking into the specifics more if you're curious but don't feel bad if it's a bit over your head. This subject is taught at a very high level in university engineering curriculum as well as graduate level courses
Shane, Thanks for the in depth explanation and you are all over it. You are also right, this is a subject taught in engineering and at graduate levels. The challenge for me is to explain and demonstrate the workings without losing interest on the receiving end. Your comment is much appreciated.
George
Barley and Hops Brewing
No thank you George. Keep up the great work!!
Nice one George. Just spent over 4 hours watching your video's - fantastic work and thank you so much for the help and advice. A TV career beacons. Best wishes from the U K.
+Graham Mutton Thanks. Just getting ready to post a new one with a step by step guide to wiring.
George
I searched on the Internet for how PID works. Your test based on visible light was incredible. I want to use PID controller for the distilling process. Thank you.
Glad I could help!
dude thank you I've watched 2 hours worth of videos on pid's today because im trying to build a stove for plastics but yours has been more informative than any of them. Also after watching your video I'm kinda thinking of using a pid for a machine to take care of my wife in the bedroom. Boop! Not enough? Okay! Little more! Boop! Okay there we go! Boop! Hahahahahaha thanks man
Hey George thanks for the effort that you put into your videos I really did learn a lot from your videos
Wow George I'm a new subscriber and love your videos, I graduated to upgrading to PID control that's why I'm here to learn!!! Thank you Buddy for all you do!!
man, you are a very good teacher. excellent job
Hi George. Thanks for your video. We all learn from each other. In watching, I noticed several things. The first was that the on/off cycle (white board demo) looked like a saw tooth wave yet your explaination sounded like square. The later portion with a florescent bulb was obviously square (on/off). Your explaination sounded like a demo with an incandescant bulb hooked up to a rheostat where the operator (controller) started out twisting from full on to full off and gradually twisted less and less: less on/less off until the change was minimal. Meanwhile, the wattage (bright to dim) over time stabilized into a small ripple change. The resolution of the ripple is based on the frequency and change. Check out the Arduino videos on controlling AC voltage. Create comparison. Cheers.
Here's my layman summation: We often are PIDs. When you're turning that heat up and down trying to cook something, taking in the sensory data of the food cooking, visual, olfactory. We are often operating it seems as very elaborate organic PIDs.
Love the passion. I'll bet a week's pay you don't have a problem getting out of bed each morning
No problem at all.
Thanks for the comment.
George
A PID controller is excellent for holding a constant temperature but a still doesn't operate at a constant temperature throughout the distilling process. A still requires ever increasing amounts of heat in order to keep the distillation going as the ratio of ethanol to water decreases throughout the run. Ethanol starts to come off the still at 174 F and one constantly has to increase the temperature, depending on the flow rate from the condenser, to 203 F which typically completes a run. A PID cannot self regulate these temperature requirements thus requiring an operator to monitor the condenser flow rate and make temperature adjustments. This monitoring and adjustment is where the art of running a still comes into play. A PID is a great way to get your charge up to temp and holding it there prior to distilling but beyond that it offers no advantage to the home distiller.
Thank you. I have one of those PID controllers, I rebuilt my father's SEAL 210 dry mount press with it, removing the worn out manual controls that were way off their settings and now correctable. I didn't understand the controller and manually set all the variables and didn't get it to work just right, I'll reset my PID unit and let it try to learn it out on it's own.
Excellent
Barley and Hops Brewing hello, the auto tune worked almost perfectly, I did gave to offset the PID from what I was reading on the face of the platen by a few degree and adjust the dead band to 3 deg. Now the face temperature stays within 2-4 degrees of the SV, HUGE improvement over the old bimetal control unit it came with
Great. I applaud your success.
George
Hi, George, I like your videos. I also would like to see them keep coming. I know that you have made it this far in life, without My input. LOL. But Please be careful. I saw another video that you did on the heating element electric cap. Awesome video, I would not have been as brave holding that coupling by hand and drilling. (vise-grips or something to hold that coupling) I also would not be as brave as you in that small beaker filled with water playing with electric. LOL. Very good videos please keep them coming and please be safe.
Oh boy you sir are a genius !
Love your videos, definitely want to built one these controllers, keep the videos coming, I know I enjoy them.
Thanks, will do!
You are a great teacher! They should just include a link to your youtube channel instead of the instructions that come with the PID!
Love your information!
It helped me figure out I have the wrong type of controller for my needs. I am trying to use a controller to control a wood drying kiln and the controller has to control a dehumidifier compressor, so it cannot pulse the power or it will burn up contactor and compressor.
So what type of controller do I need for this application? Sure would help if you or anyone else knows.
Loving your enthusiasm and again many thanks for the advice.
I'm not sure that is the best way to describe the three PID terms. For clarity, think of the output from the controller. The proportional term drives the output "proportional" to the deviation from setpoint. The integral term is the product of "deviation from setpoint multiplied by the time it has been away from setpoint (the controller will ramp up or down if the process value doesn't come back to SV. And the derivative term acts on how fast the process value is changing. If the controller senses the temperature just blasting off quickly, it will clamp down on the output based on the rate of change of the PV... Tuning a PID controller is done by varying the gain values you attribute to each separate term... Does that make sense?
It still looks like it is either on or off. But I do understand that the ons/offs as short and they seem to keep the temperature in a very narrow range. This is how the 98% efficient natural gas furnace in my house works. But I did t know, until this video, it was called a PID. I do have a question if this thread is still active: generally speaking, is it better (in terms of taste) to have a slow steady distillation or is the final taste not really affected by the distillation speed; therefore, Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead and let’s get this puppy done!! Thank you George. By the way, VERY INTERESTING!
PID controllers relate to a transfer function which models the devices output for any input value. The thermocouple subtracts the measured value from the set point and the remaining signal is called the error signal. This signal feeds a 3-term amplifier for PID and this amplifies the error signal, the integral (all of the previous error) and the derivative error (the rate of change of the error) and sums these three signals. This is a form of closed-loop feedback so it will continuously iterate. Eventually the error will tend to within 0.5% of the set point and this is the steady state error (the error as time tends towards infinity).
Good vid. Helped me understanding PID control. Thank you!
Great Video your nickname should be George the Science Guy! Keep um coming.
Good video George, great personality and detail. Can you make a video explaining what figures to put in for PID and how they work together to reach stabilisation at set point.
Great video, Very informative as always.. You, have a great weekend...
George. I really like your enthusiasm during these videos and found this one very interesting. How will a P&ID controller work with a fridge/freezer compressor? I don't think compressor units are made to function at for example 30% power, but I can be wrong.
Thanks George are we going to have to come check on you it's been a while
I like the idea of the pic control simple easy and $ wise
Hi George.....I just completed building the inkbird PID temp controller following your most excellent tutorial. Everything works great. My question is about tuning. Would you please direct me to the vid that addresses setting parameters where the inkbird progressively "ramps" up to a set point.
The other problem I'm having is establishing the on/off set points.
For instance, my inkbird "screams" up to say 180F set point, the SSR opens, the temp drops down to 150F, relay closes, temp screams to 180F on and on.... I'm looking to tighten up the operating envelope. You're a great instructor! Thanks for everything. Jerry
great job George can't wait for your next video
WOW! running a still without sitting and staring at it.
You can add very important safety feature to your system as SSR sometimes go stuck ON when the heating element is starting to fail. This will cause uncontrollable raise in controlled temperature to maximum without any limits.
What you need is a RELAY or CONTACTOR (if the heater element is 3 phase) and connect it to second (ALARM) port of PID controller. This will switch off power to the heater if PID detects SSR failure.
Also the incandescent bulb will show your idea much better as it is proportional in nature instead of fluorescent which is on and off
Brand new thank you for you videos.
PV represents "Process Variable" which is the actual value at the thermocouple. "SP" is in fact "Set Point".
Or perceived value.
Thank you for this valuable information. Can you show how to set the time the controller takes to reach the SV value, please. Thanks in advance.
Great information for us new guys. #happydistilling.
Very well explained.
You are are wonderfull, thank you very much
George when you are making a still from a beer keg where do you mount the temp probe
Using a PId and electric element
Thank you George!
Can a PID controller, instead of governing the pot element, and controlling the boiler, be attached to a Motorised ball valve, and control the flow of column cooling water instead? I figure it'd have to do TWO jobs, then... Water open, then Water closed... Unlike an element where power off = cooling down, valve position should hold temp
Hi George,
I’m having problems with my ink bird, I’m using it to vaporize oxalic acid for bees, I have it set for 344° and it will go up to 410° melts my solder that is holding my copper tube and then back down to 340°. It fluctuates so much and I don’t know how to narrow it down.
I am planning to build my first pid. I have a pot still with a thumper. I'm wondering if the best place to put the Thermocoupler is as the vapor leaves the thumper?
I was wondering if a (STC-1000) be used and wired the same way as the (PID)? I would like for you to do a video of wiring one of them up? Thanks and keep up the great work!
Hey George. Thanks for all your videos. I've learned a lot. I was hoping you or maybe someone here could answer a question on pid controllers. If using the mile hi 2 in 1 reflux. If you increase the power on the pid can you compensate for the additional water vapor by increasing the water flow to the chiller in the tower? In doing so is there additional risk of scorching what's in the kettle? Or can you push the pid all the way up and add extra cooling to the tower Condensor? Basically trying to reduce overall runtime but want to be sure I'm not risking scorching anything. Thanks. Hope that makes sense.
Hi George. This seems to be a real hot potato topic in the distilling forums. Using a PID to control a (for example) a forced reflux still. I have some observations and questions. The boiling point of a wash is determined by the ABV of the mixture. The boiling point of the wash increases as the ABV goes down. Controlling the heating input contributes only to how vigorously it boils. If the boiling point of the wash (at the time) is, say, 80c and you set the PID on, say, 90c - the temperature of the wash CANNOT increase - only boil more vigorously. Is it correct to call this as a temp.controller and not a power controller (when applied to stills)? I think this is very important to get accross to new beginners (like me). So that being said...if I run a forced reflux column (with cooling management) - I can't see the logic of installing the thermo couple on the top of the column (afrter the column condenser). Wouldn't it be better to install it into the pot and use it as a manual power controller for the hotplate? Or am I completely wrong? I would really appreciate you input on this! Cheers!
Not such a hot potato topic after all. This really all depends on how well you can manage temperature. Think of it like this - the magic point in the still is where the valor passes from the column to the condenser, if you know the temp at that point you know (for sure) that you are vaporizing ethanol. On the other hand if you only know the temp of the mash origin (in the kettle) you are simply guessing. It's like trying to maintain 50 MPH in you car by watching the tachometer. The tachometer will give you and indication of how fast your engine is running and the amount of power it is providing but does not give you the fidelity of how fast you are traveling. The speedometer does that. It's kind of the same principle - a probe in the kettle will be like watching the tachometer. It is possible to extrapolate what temps work best by doing so but I have found that the most direct method of temp management is to have the probe at the top of the column.
Your biggest challenge is balancing the temp since you are pre-cooling the valor with water to achieve a reflux action. It is easy to over shoot or under shoot the temp via water flow and you find yourself chasing the temp by adjusting both the heat and water flow together.
ABV does change in the mash over time so at regular intervals it would be necessary to change the boiling point of the mash as the temp needed to separate the ethanol changes. This is true even in a pot still and a lost on some people. It all has to do with temp management.
Hope this helps
George
Hats off for taking the time to write back George, thank you! This has got to be the single best and most informative reply to this question on the internett. Believe me I know - I've used many hours researching my design.
What a great analogy about the car, speed and RPM's. It makes perfect sense. The reason I'm so hung up on the PID is because I have done a run or two on a friend's still which had a PID control (thermo couple on top of the column) and I think it is an ingenious way to apply control. The column however had minimal forced reflux capabilities. My only remaining worry is that if the hotplate takes its cue from the thermo couple on top of my column in, for example, full reflux the engine will be revving way too high. My reasoning is that the area directly over the deflag (a very effective deflag) will be far cooler than the area under the deflag.
That said, I have just drilled and tapped the hole for my couple into the end cap of the column AND drilled a hole for a thermometer in the pot. Love gadgets and it will give me something more to look at. Besides race cars have their tacometers in the center of the dash ;) As I get to know the still I think the temperature on the PID will be an arbitrary number(s) that I will learn along the way.
Keep up the amazing work and your enthusiasm George. You contribute enormeously to the collective wisdom of our community! Awesome videos - Thanks !!
Gods work thank you!!
Hi George. I have managed to get a stc1000 which is all that is available at this time. It has a short plastic covered thermocoupler or probe. Can it be used? I am stuck on how to mount it if it can be used. Have spoken with professor google but I don’t see this as something anyone has ever covered. Obviously can’t just be stuck into the copper as it will effect the reading. Any way you can give advice? Thanks as usual for your great coverage. Am learning so much from you. Regards.
Is the performance and energy savings gain difference between using this system compared to one which employs a thermostat with a very low differential, (for example those historically used in tropical fish tanks) big enough to warrant the expense of retrofitting existing systems, or is this device aimed at new installations? For example, will my Cardinal Tetra be more comfortable?
I have no idea. Don't even know what a Cardinal Tetra is.
George
You can buy a PID controller with 40A SSR, heat-sink and K-type thermocouple on ebay for as little as £25 (approx. $35).
George I am a little like Charlie Knight... Could sure use a video on how to program MYPID .please and as alway many Thanks! and have a great holiday.
I have all 17 settings wrote down in order, but no one will tell you which program you use to set the temperature. How do you set the temperature you want. IP, SC, DIG, OP, CTRL, HC, RUN, ALP, HIAL, LOW, PD, DF, PID, CTL, P, I, D, 🤔
You are awesome sir, thanks
Cant wait for the second video!
I have the r e x c100 the sssr is always on no matter what I do even when desired temperature is achieved what do I do
Great work👍🏻👍🏻
I need your help as for the pid rex c100,I cant achieve the exact temparature range . Please tell me the prices in the commants and what they mean .My basic problem is that I easily loose the proper temparature
Hello
I have a heat press and is looking to set the temperature from Celsius to fahrenheit
it's a A&A xmtg 8181p
any help will be greatly appreciated
Hi George! Thank you for your excellent videos, I am hooked! I have a question about the PID. I am using a ramp/soak for my glass kiln. I understand the ramping up part however I will need to drop temp from a 20 minute hold @ 760 deg. C. to 515 deg. C (as quickly as possible) and then hold that temp of 515 deg. C for 30 minutes. Do any of your videos demo the segment programming for this cooling stage/hold?
It's in the manual that came with your controller. If you're stuck, you're overthinking it. Have you thought of setting the next temp to the same for hold and lower for cool?
Will a pid control a hot plate
PIDs do not fine tune anything. They do exactly what is determined by the three coefficients. You have to work those out yourself. There is no machine learning in a PID.
George, did search for the first pid, AGPLK and cannot find, do you have anymore info on it?????
I had a T500, and constantly dicking around with the water to keep a consistent temperature became old fast.
Just got a beautiful Brewhaus 8 gallon with a 3 inch column, so super excited.
If I understand correctly, with the PID controller, I can set the water flow at a reasonable pace, and control the temperature with the electric heating element?
That is correct.
George
Lets say your set value is 78 degrees Celsius, The perceived value drops to 75 degrees Celsius and the PID determines the heating element needs a 12 % increase in power to bring the temp back to 78 degrees Celsius , does the PID increase the power by turning the power on 100% full power for a predetermined amount of time so the proportionate amount equals a 12% increase in power, or does the PID turn on the power that would equal proportionately 12% of the available wattage of electricity to the heating element? Let me clarify, does the PID increase the heat by turning the power 100% on for a adequate amount of time, or does it increase the heat by turning on the power by the amount of wattage or amps sent to the heating element? You say PROPORTIONAL does that mean 100 % power over a period of time? Or does that mean just the amount of power? I'm trying to describe this so you understand. Does the PID essentially just turn the power 100% on or 100% off like a thermostat? Or does the PID regulate power to the heating element?
i am looking for the answer to this as well. the way they are wired in a heating circuit , it seems impossible for the pid to regulate the energy ie 30% power output . i think it can only switch full on or off. confused.
Many controllers only output a digital signal, i.e. on or off, this is time proportioned according to what level of output is required using PWM, so at 100% power the output will be on continously, at 50% the ouput will switch on and off so that half the time is on, half is off, 25% power would be tuned on for 25% of time and off for 75% of time. So for example, the lowest setting usualy available on most controllers to opperate a SSR is 1 second, this means the lowest switching repetion rate on/off is 1 second. So at 25% output power the controller will activate the output for 0.25 seconds every second, 50% would be 0.5 seconds etc. The controller will determine how long to activate the output acording to the setpoint and measured process value.
There are however also controlers that give an analogue output, for example 0-10v, so at zero power there would be no output and 100% power would be 10v output. (usualy output would be 4-20ma), these can give an almost infinite control over the process, used in conjunction with a phase angle controler it is possible to have very precise control.
@@daic7274 thanks for the reply. Helps to put the puzzle together. Cc
I have watched all your videos on PID's. I have been trying to wire it for 3 months without any luck. I wonder how long it will take to figure out the setting. It is so frustrating.
P=1
I=540
D=200
Control period = 1
Hey George I am interested in using your videos to build a 220 heating system inside my smoker. Any videos of yours I could refer too on this build? From the ones ive watched you do an excellent job.
Thanks buddy in advance
Use the playlist to find the rest of them. There are several
thanks for the great video
George I built me a pid mypin T Series, can’t believe it and it works but I can’t get the temperature to balance 2days now 18 hrs a day and still no balance.... went in to settings proportional and integral and derivative all off. Try it temp still don’t match.... turn all p.i.n back on more hrs go by temp still 3 to 4 degrees difference. Never balanced .... what is going wrong... I thought building would be the hard part that’s the easy part with see the great videos.... But you are going to have to make a video on step by step on going in all the settings and we’re to set them and and need set on or set off... this could be up for sale I’m just not smart enough to get it to balance... my dial controller stays at a steady... so if can help a would appreciate it.... I have call ever phone number and have left message, we’re u at my friend lol
Charlie, I am planning to do a video on the internal parameters of the PID and specifically the P,I and D settings. These do need to be set correctly otherwise the controller will not know how to balance.
Set your P at 1.00 the I at 240.0 and the D at 90.00 and then try it again.
I bought the same gray box at ACE hardware under $50 FYI. 👍
He said he bought the box for $11
George, great video! Thanks! Have a question - to control 3 phase heater, do I need 3 SSRs? Thanks.
You should use a three phase SSR.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing Thank you George. Any recommendations on where I can find one?
Never mind. Just found one. Thanks again.
HELP!! I have the ITC-106vh running a chest freezer for serving beer, when it hits temp the compressor activates and deactivates very quickly. I am scared the compressor will burn out. The parameters and instructions are very confusing can someone help me make a parameters please?!
Ok so this isn’t for dabs like I thought ?
first off.. thanks for your awesome tutorials, they have helped so much in setting up my brew system. Now for a Question. I have my pid controller all wired up and the element works fine. but the thermocouple temperature is way off. is there any thing I can do to fix this?
Hi, Love the videos! could the PID be used to separate heads hearts and tails?
for example set the PID temp the top end of the foreshots. then once the still stops producing alcohol that means all the bad compounds have been removed and you can bump the PID to the temp associated with the end of the heads? etc etc.
Sorry if this has been covered already! I'm working through the videos!
Cheers
Yes you can but each batch is a little different so this is a moving target. There is no easier way than knowing what you are doing when you make the cuts. If there was a button to push to make these cuts for you someone would have found it by now.
There are definitive points you can set to accomplish most of the process but the fine cuts are too close to just dial in a temp to make.
+Barley and Hops Brewing LLC, thanks for the replies man! I totally understand that the PID doesn't make it easier. or can set points etc, I'm looking into getting the Still Spirits Pot Still. im totally new to the whole concept of distilling, so I'm getting my head around using a PID with the Still. you are a guru master!
can u please tell how to decide pid values exactly for the desired setpoint
a good explanation
Its not illegal everywhere :)
Can you use a PID controller in conjunction with a silicone controlled rectifier?
Nobody has an answer?
This is Two Georges the PID controllers that you get they do work fine why you should try building a analog meter with a control knob you get more accurate than the PID because it's up either going at 2 or down appointment to and you can just run it at a steady pace. But the other reason was I apologize for calling you on your vacation didn't know it and I thought you were very rude so if you are that rude to people that call you maybe you shouldn't do the videos anymore thank you Mike
Mike, I apologize if I offended you. When you called and I answered I did start by telling you I was on vacation with family but could take a short question as I had limited time. This developed quickly into a longer conversation that I could not commit to so I ask if I could get back to family as we were being called into the restaurant for our reservation.
I meant no ill will nor intent.
I do apologize.
George
Dear Sir can u make a video how to setting basic parameters in DC100 temperature controller
Hey George! How's it going? I got a question about PID's (and I did watch your other video on wiring them, which was easy enough to understand). If the PID measures the temperature, what heats it up? It's not conducting heat, right? Perhaps you addressed this and I simply didn't catch it.
Also, what is the difference between a PID and a kegerator thermometer that controls electricity from the wall to the fridge? I am missing something, but don't know what. haha :)
+Shad Hall The PID doesn't heat up it controls the heater. It measures precise temperature and calculates the need for power to maintain a constant temp without cycling. The kegerator control you talk about only turns on and off at a set point but does not calculate any differences in present, past temps and timing like a PID does. Hope this helps
By the way- we miss you around here
George
+Barley and Hops
Thanks for the quick reply. I think what was throwing me off was how the temperature kept changing on the PID. The light bulb was merely as an electrical current indicator, right? So, what was causing the PID meter reading to change several degrees? I know the ambient room temperature wasn't fluctuating that much.
+Shad Hall That was the thermocouple sensor I had inserted in the vapor stream. Sort of like an electronic thermometer, you must have missed that part on the video. We wired it into the PID before we turned it on.
George
+Barley and Hops I bet I did. I'll have to give it a thorough viewing. :)
+Barley and Hops Thanks for taking my follow up phone call and resolving this quandary for me! It was good catching up. :)
What brand distiller are you using? Looking to purchase one
We use the Brewhaus or Mile High models. Any style will work as long as it is a quality still.
George
i need to control 5 2000 watt heating elements to maintain a temperature of a tank at constant value for my research project....... can i do that with a single PID controller
You can but the power requirement will be tremendous.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing i have 60A source with 440 volts in my university........ will that be enough
@@MuhammadSaad-uk6xd to run 5 elements at 2,000 watts each is a total of 10,000 watts, divide that by your voltage of 440 volts and you get 22.7 amps of power needed to run it. A 40 amp SSR on your PID controller should do it.
Has anyone come up with a way for a PID to control the water flow on a Turbo 500. The water pressure varies allot where I live driving the temperatures wild.
I would direct you to this site: www.vfds.org/using-variable-frequency-drive-pid-control-for-pump-motor-128631.html
How to set pid parameter in shimaden sr1
Can you tell me if a Rex c 100 can control heating and cooling? So for example if I wanted to run a heater inside a refrigerator and control the refrigerator with the same Rex c 100.
You cannot control both at the same time with the REX. Not real sure you can set it to control cooling either. Check the wiring diagram and see if it has a setting for cooling. Should be obvious if it does. If not the TD 4 will control heat or cooling but not together.
George
+Barley and Hops Brewing LLC what is the best and least expensive pid that will control both at the same time?
+Barley and Hops Brewing LLC I don't want the heat on at the same time as the cool but if it needs cooling it will turn on the refrigerator and if it needs heat it will turn on the heater.
That's a good one. I am sure there is a way to do this. First though is to double up the controllers, two TD 4's would be perfect. One for heating and one for cooling (of course assuming that you would never have both happening at the same time). You could even use the same power supply (split between them) for both.
I've got the r e x c100 there is something wrong with it I guess no matter what I do it will not turn off power to the SSR what do I do?
any help my controler is new ( not my first ) when setting the temp . it just passes my set temp ( keeps getting hotter and hotter doesnt stop ) thanks
Make sure you are not set in manual mode. That's what it sounds like. I am only guessing since I don't know what type of controller you have but this is the most common problem.
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing how do i change that its a mypin
@@lukerichardson9688 The instructions that came with the controller explains how to change parameters.
The instructions are a joke thanks tho
i have made a annealing oven.heater is getting ON but cutt-off is not working,iuse temperature controller and ssr
Not sure what you mean by this. If you could add a little more information like PID model number and precisely what is happening I think I can help.
George
pid 500-1-1-01cut-off temperature is not working.may i know the solution
Have you tried the auto-tune function yet?
George
DC1010 hynewell temperature controller
could you use a pid-controller on the T500 Boiler? ?
The challenge would be finding a thermocouple size to fit exactly where the thermometer goes so the cooling water doesn't leak. There are probably work arounds for the creative.
Hi George, apparently, your website died at the end of April. Go Daddy has a notice there.
can confirm 5/may/20
Hi! I was wondering if yoy could help. I have a controller on my kiln. I need help to set the ramp and soak times and temperatures! Please and thanks. I'm a bit of a simple simon. 😊😊
What type of controller is it?
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing Thanks so much for getting back to me. It's a rex-c 100.
Nice
hello sir could you pleas help me in something
i had a JCS33A Shinko Temp controller and i found that you need to set the Low height value of SV , but i don't know why would you need to do that when you already set it in the main menu
and another thing what is the difference between heating and cooling output
and finally what is the ARW setting ?
Sorry but your questions should be refereed to someone who knows more about the JCS33A.
George
Barley and Hops Brewing LLC so there is no height or low SV configuration in your temp controller??
There is but we don't adjust the factory setting. It works perfect as is and needs no adjustment.
Check out the TD-4 PID on line
Barley and Hops Brewing LLC ok thank you Sir for your time
I tried looking up your PID and found that it was discontinued. I guess Shinko is moving to other controllers.