Correction Willis did not choose to lay in France. He lost his job and understandably chose job security. If he choose to come back like Mercer he has no guarantee of an England place so why should he take the risk when his first duty is to his family. This unjust and plain stupid rule needs changing. there are only ten Premier teams stuffed with overseas players many of them mark players so stop this victimisation of our top talent.
He didn’t initially when he went there because of the wasps situation but it was when he signed an extension to his initial short term contract with Toulouse he was then deemed to have chosen to play abroad, therefore making him ineligible
What did you want him to do, up his family settle in France for a short time and come back and hopefully get a descent salary, with undecided unconfirmed central contract promises, 13 teams becoming 10, it’s not as binary as it once was, maybe the English game should have been better managed so these things didn’t happen.
This policy has to be changed... England needs Willis... he's strong, cunning and generous... if you don't want him, we'll give him the french nationality ;-) :D seriously, how can England do without a player like him?
Willis and others International players of the Stade Toulousain, have been revealing their huge talent. As you said, when you play for Toulouse, you have to be the best and you become the best because you are given the responsability to make your group the best one! Toulouse is all about a culture and tradition of rugby in this city
Yes, when you see the third row of Toulouse you need to be one of the best player of the world to play. Cros, roumat, jelonch (who's injured for the moment) ntamack brother, castro fereira who's the revelation of the season, ans Willis. And with Toulouse management we also saw mauvaka playing there and flamment. It's a madness.
Which English club would Willis like to play for? This season Toulouse harlequins 38 - 26 Toulouse exeter 64 - 26 Toulouse bath 31 - 19 Harlequins toulouse 19 - 47
It comes to something when there is a report of 4 South Africans potentially being looked at to play for England but the English Jack Willis cant be picked because he plays across the channel
Hi guys I'm french, i'm a Toulouse fan and you MUST take him for your national team, even though he plays in France. Stop to these stupids rules you can play both for toulouse and England team . I think he will become better if he plays for his country ...This man is a monster ! If he was from New Zealand he would be a planet star . Believe me, i see him play week after week and he 's always at this level
The main difference is that Zach hasn't proved himself time and time again in an England shirt and isn't probably 4th/5th choice number 8 at the moment. He got shown up against the Bulls and doesn't seem to have what Borthwick wants in an 8... plus, would you really replace Ben Earl for anybody right now? The man is a machine.... Willis is a shoe-in at 7 alongside Underhill in comparison.
In a sport that causes head trauma and permanent physical discomfort post career, I think most players will always just choose money and that's fine. If England wants players in England, pay them much more money. Otherwise, keep your rules but just accept you will never win a WC again
South Africa changed its policy to select overseas players and we have two world cups back to back , what it does is , enables you to build depth as other players get opportunities to play in the premiership and to select your best players overseas. If England does not see this then they are going to be left behind.
100% agree your top 3. Jack is outstanding brillant hard worker, cool and smart guy. May be in the top 3 world back row. I live in Toulouse and really havé a lot of respect for Jack. Sometimes players have to change of mind to restart carrer. Hé made not an easy choice to play with us accepting the rule. Not useful to punish him for national squad. Hé desserve to play for England. May be make an exception of the rules for him.
The argument on overseas is misguided. The secret to generating talent is youth and the French get it right with their JIFF requirements. Letting senior players ply their trade overseas is and can only ever be a benefit as Jack Willis is proving - Toulouse has helped him elevate his game. And if England want to be retrograde on these issues, fine, but then let Jack Jacques?) play for France. We'll gladly play him as starting 6 with Aldritt at 8 and Olivon at 7. Best back row in the world.
Actually the benefit of including overseas players is that you get them developing their game under different coaching styles. Gibson Park is a good example. NZ coaching was not where he became his best version. Would NZ turn him down if he was currently eligible?
While France has an excellent youth system, this was also achieved through no salary limits and a vast amount of great deal more investment of the last decade or more. English, Welsh and Scottish clubs in particular, do not have the luxury and fortune of this currently, even if they could do better at attracting support and investors. So it isn't really as simple as waving a magic wand.
I find it strange, there're 4 saffas in line for England caps, but Willis is excluded. Look at the system used by SA, they get the benefit a reduced salary bill, but players with knowledge and experience in most of the leagues and conditions which can then be harnessed in the boks.
It has to change just look at SA they don’t do it and yet they are back to back world champs and it always sticks with me what Rassie said about it, he said something along the lines of he wants his best players playing abroad to block pathways for other countries and then in SA they can give their young players game time he gave the example of Faf at Sale blocking Quirk’s development. We’ve seen time and time again English players going to France and being world player or European player of the year but can’t play for England, it makes zero sense and needs to be changed
Better for Jack Willis, he will apply for French naturalization (he has relaunched his career and boosted his level like never before in the best club in the world in France, and he has successfully settled an happy family life in France as well from now on), he will have it, he deserves it, and he will play with Les Bleus de France! 😁
@@swann67000 he’s already said he wants to play for England and a move back is a possibility. Lol, I’m sure you have your trusty white flag in your back pocket ready also 🤣
Jim (and Bernard Jackman & Sam Warburton) are 100% RIGHT. Players forced out of the Gallagher through League and club mismanagement, should retain eligibility. Andy (and Bill Sweeney & yes-man Borthers) are 100% WRONG. How exactly has the Board of the Gallagher Prem protected the interests of English players and English clubs over the last 4 years?? - name even ONE thing !
This, 100% this. It's laughable, all they need to do is limit the number of players you can select playing overseas, 2 or 3 players tops, a mass exodus of players wont kill the prem, and as has be painfully apparent from the last 2 years it's financial mismanagement that's doing the damage.
@@gs8494. Dead right - a version of the Top14 JIFF rule would create so many more opportunities for England-qualified players to ply their trade at home. Eg. How many English born centres start for the 10 clubs each round of the premiership season?? Out of the 20 available slots last year, I’m guessing the average was maybe 12?
I think the rule should stay in place looking at the bigger picture all the top English players would end up in France the prem would become weaker . But the prem can’t afford pop star wages like in France all the players know they sacrificing playing for England when jumping ship . Yes Jack Willis had to go to Toulouse for job security and rightly so but you telling me no prem sides have tried to get his signature? All comes down to money pops star wages or play for England
@@tigerclarence1248 weaker how, they already don’t compete well in the champions cup and don’t tell me it was good this season, yes it did exceed expectation’s, being real though France have two or 3 better clubs Ireland have Leinster, I expect the South Africans to get better in it over time.
If the RFU really want England to compete with the best, they have to ensure that their coach can select the best players. Difficult issues such as player availability and protecting the premiership from players leaving must be solved and that is the job of the RFU. They have had a decade plus to resolve this. Please do not defend the status quo, it is simply unacceptable.
This RFU rule is amusingly masochist and perfectly sums up England rugby lack of success since few years. England protective selection policy is counter-productive as the national team needs fresh ideas to develop attack, defence, breakdown. A guy like Willis could bring all his Top14 learnings and demanding level... But England selectors prefer to rely on their traditional force and forwards game.
Chessman not on same level but decent back up, Tom Curry not hit any form in 3 years while his brother lives off Tom. Earls & Willis are international level & should be in no question.
Changing the rule will mean an absolute exodus will happen in regard to players leaving the local competitions. It's not about England wanting certain players to play for England it should be the other way around where the player wants to play for England.
Yes there will be an exodus to begin with, but guaranteed English clubs will find good replacements for those players and it will ultimately elevate the level of play in England once things settle down. You also then have players who don't feel like they're forced to play there because of selection laws
Who came up with this stupid policy in the first place? Obviously someone who thought they could control the home market place without the guarantee of anyone ever being selected in the first place. What do they expect a gifted player to do? He has at the very best an 18 year career at the sharp end of a high risk of injury. The chance of playing 10 international games per year is only ever a very rare reward, which depends so much on other people:- the coach, his associates, supporting players. Any player has to go for the best deal he can get for himself. If he gets selected to start a match, that’s great, but every player has just to try to get to the very zenith of his ability and enjoy it for as long as he can.
Pick him for the Lions tour. But your missing the point re England. The rule is there and he chose to play abroad (he would have been picked by another English Premiere team) & that rule is in place to protect the Premiere league.
Exactly. Some of these players look to go overseas to have a break from international rugby. They may not want to play for England and this is nice way to have that sabbatical, enjoy your rugby at club level and earn more money.
I agree with your point if the premiership was a good development league that didn't have so many players from abroad taking places of developing English players...I like the fact many overseas players are in the premiership but don't punish the talent building and then complain when they go abroad to get a pay check...there should be rules put in place for English players that have a certain number of international caps if you want a happy medium
Toulouse players have not the highest salaries of top 14. Many players of other teams are more payed than Antoine Dupont. That's why Colby left Toulouse to play with Toulon. BUT playing for Toulouse gives you trophies, fame. That why they join this club. When Toulouse offers a player to join, the answer is immediatly Yes.
Its easy to sit on the sidelines and have an opinion on the rules to protect the premiership. South Africa tried that route and realised that it doesn't work for us. When we enforced that rule our national team was weaker. Maybe England is in that same boat. We would like to see you play your absolute best players in every position. Your rugby is following your football. Great clubs mediocre national team. Is that really what you want?
An English Exiles team (players who haven’t been consistently selected for a bit despite playing well, or have gone over seas). 1. Val Rapava Ruskin 2. Harry Thacker 3. Tim Hoyt 4. Dave Ribbans 5. Charlie Ewels 6. Sam Simmonds 7. Jack Willis 8. Zach Mercer 9. Raffi Quirke 10. Jacob Umaga 11. Ollie Sleightholm 12. Dan Kelly 13. Joe Marchant 14. Gabriel Ibitoye 15. Henry Arundell Haven’t put in players like Farrell, or Nowells, as I don’t know if they’re actually retiring but haven’t said it outright yet from international duties.
Goode nails it. From a practical point of view is Jack Willis that much better to have during a six nations campaign, where he's going to be going back to Toulouse to play in the two rest weeks, than the options (who will get rested) in the prem? I don't think so - I'd much rather put test minutes into one of the myriad of alternatives that the prem is offering. At this moment in time Willis isn't a necessity - he's a "nice to have". Maybe in the lead up to the WC there'll be a few leg breaks and he can become an exceptional circumstance pick but that's really the only situation he should be picked in whilst he's in France.
IMO the one thing that drives fan numbers up is national team success. If England win all the clubs benefit. Fan engagement has never been better then after 2003. Also I would suggest that having player spend time in France, NZ, RSA etc should be encouraged. Pick the best team irrespective of where they are currently playing, increase fan interest and club profits to a point where they can offer bteer deals to players to stay in England
The exception just has to be made for "players who moved abroad because their club folded", not "Jack Willis specifically". It can't be that hard to phrase it to make a clear difference between a player who was transferred or chose a contract abroad, and one who signed abroad because he suddenly was jobless.
that would surely mean impose a time limit though, if the point is to encourage players to be in the prem. I don’t agree with it, but Jack extending his contract would make him outside of that extenuating position anyway
@@SweptDust5340 Yes and no. Rugby players are human beings, and moving to a different country is quite different from moving to a different city. You can see it as a temporary gig, or you can decide to settle, bring your family with you, etc. And a player who just lost his job is probably not in the mindset to think "it's just a temporary setback, surely I will get another job back home in no time, I'll just take a small suitcase with me". Considering the circumstances of Willis' arrival in Toulouse - three different teams had folded at roughly the same time - he can hardly be blamed for settling there and not being in any hurry to move back home. Because really, it's kinda the RFU's fault he is playing there now. If they had their act together he would never have had to job hunt in Southern France.
@@Skinineful yeah no i agree intuitively with you but i can’t see the RFU allowing for players who extended contract in the foreign country. I would want them to get rid of the rule all together, or give a 3 year grace period to all players to go abroad and still be allowed to play for england. Getting Willis in is a priority above that though, so I do hope you are right and they sort it in a way to get him in
I find it ironic how this podcast raves about the French league and how amazing French rugby is, from the league to the national team, but when it comes to England, Jim changes his mind and believes they should be selecting overseas players. the French have the best league in the world and one of the best national teams and they have the rule. if u wanna play for England play in England. i personally dont want to kill the league
False, we never had this rule in France. We can select a French players from everywhere. A fews years ago, the English League was more powerful, and we had French players there, we still select them.
France hasn’t condensed 13 teams to 10 either, ultimately if you can afford to pay a core group of players the correct wedge you have to expect them to earn it elsewhere, given the injury woes Willis had and Wasps folding, multiple players out of contract scrabbling for salaries who can blame him.
Just out of interest what happens to J Willis when Jelonch is fully fit? And didn't Jack do an interview with the Rugby Pod in which he picked Jelonch as the Toulouse best No.7?
Supporting the current selection policy is politics, not sport. It’s support for a failing league setup rather than for the England team. Madness not to select Englishmen wherever they play.
The glazing is crazy. He’s class but England have immense depth in the backrow with players who arguably offer a lot more around the pitch along with the breakdown. The rule is there to protect the integrating of the league that also helps to supply the national team.
surely the sensible decision is for the RFU to start working on securing Jack Willis to play in England in 2027 so he is available for the 2028 world cup but there has to certain guarantees' , like for example he will be played in the first 3 internationals so that we do not have a " Mercer" situation and his finances are similar to France.
As a Welsh bloke who sees the parallel.. How can any international team select elect to not select the most ridiculously good players based on their professional choices continue? We all want to keep the best players n our leagues, but... nose/face dichotomy is big.
No they shouldn’t lift the ban and everyone saying they should just folllow media hype led by podcasts like this rather than actually using their brain. The reason the players have to play in England is access. People have short memory and forget the years of struggle of negation between the rfu and clubs over access to England players. That’s why Woodward resigned as coach because he couldn’t access the players enough. U then throw that out the window if u allow in foreign players. Then half the squad would not be available for training, we see how half of scotlands squad get recalled during the six nations. Then everyone would be moaning saying, the rfu sacrificed the england team for players to wealthier. U can’t have overseas players and the access England coaches want to build effective teams.
Forget the law as this is an exception no one else would get in with except maybe Arundel if he ups his performances. Or unless another club with world class players goes bust in which case there are bigger problems to worry about
Considering his horrendous injury am sure JW is Relishing playing Rugby full stop! I know this will blow up! But Born in New Zealand you if successful play for your National Team and so on World Wide ! Born England hopefully play for England!
Yes. Every home nations ridiculous policy of caps is utterly stupid. If your good enough you should be in the national team. It's pathetic and counter productive.
I realise there are issues and nothing is straightforward but my preference would be England team made up of England players as opposed to England team made up of the best of the Prem I.e. including overseas players via residency. This surely can be achieved and I think it is something that world rugby should look into. If football can make it work surely rugby can.
Can't we just offer certain players special contracts??? We wouldn't have a mass exodus from the Prem if only a handful of players were offered hybrid contracts...
I'm of the same opinion, the To14 players play too much and the championship is really very high, look at the state they arrived in at the World Cup...the body can't sweat after a while, in the long term England has a good vision!
Players can't just head to France and expect the rules to change. Take responsibility and negotiate a contract in France that gives England access to you for all training weeks and fallow 6N weeks. Then you can turn around to the RFU and say you're available for selection. And it would be impossible for them to ignore.
@least make a rule that says 60 or 70% must be based in England and the rest overseas based because if England want to beat The All Blacks they must pick the best available team
Yes, get rid of it. It’s insane that the CEOs of Premiership clubs in a recent BBC article were saying that the policy is helping the league go forward…🤦🏾♂️
As a South African england really is confusing me with its plain idiocy They would rather call up 4 South Africans into their team to carry them than change a rule and let their own players play for them. All this says to me is that they dont believe their players who are playing overseas are as good as the fringe SA players and so youd rather just have them than bother with their own people
Your speculating Borthwick hasn’t called up ‘4 South Africans’ yet. If these 4 make themselves available and they get selected then your point has merit. However you are trying to blend two separate issues, player eligibility which is a WR issue, and the RFUs policy on overseas players selection for England suggesting that Englands preference is to select eligible South African players . Selection of eligible foreign players is not the objective of this RFU policy, it is rather the opposite. It’s nothing new , until 2018 South Africa had a similar policy, Australia, NZ , Wales have all done the same.
"Through no fault of his own", nonsense statement, he had a choice and he chose France, also there are players in the Gallagher everybit as good as Willis and they are here, the fans can see them and build a bond with them, leave it in place and apply it across the board.
Bit subjective, every bit as good, I can think of very, very few, more if I cast my net to having a ceiling to being that good but here and now, not really…
I maybe controversial, but no we shouldn’t lift the ban. I would go further and say anyone who goes to play in France should be banned for life from playing for England. We have to protect our national leagues and game. The fans in our country deserve to watch the best English players and not second rate players. Also do we really want to go down the same road as cricket where Indian money dominates cricket. No other tournament is allowed to conflict with the IPL. The same will happen in Rugby with the Top 14. They will decide who can play for their countries when it suits them.
If uou are going to ban English players out of contract or let go by their clubs because they have gone under from earning a living in France. Are you going to renumere these players instead ? Why punish these players fo yaking an opportunity of rearning a living playing abroad
And what about SA's players ? You must be honest in this case.. Nobody or everybody not just English or Scottish players who play in France 😂 And, more, Wasps and English team didn't permit him to perform and progress like Toulouse did.
English fans want to see the strongest best players regardless of where they play their club rugby. I challenge the RFU to conduct polls to confirm fans wishes.
It’s a stupid policy and England plus even New Zealand need to change the policy From a broader context, World Rugby has done a better job in aligning the club & country calendars but needs to finish the job so that everyone in the world is playing club and country rugby separately to also give the players more of an extended period of rest and off time
Borthwick and English Brexit ‘ whatever that is ? 😂😂😂😂 Please Einstein, tell us what either got to do with the RFU England policy on England selection ?
lets demolish AG arguments. The payment that the RFU would make for any player can be paid and divided between all the clubs . do freanch players play any more rugby than overseas players in France ? let the best players go to France , its the best league in the world at the moment . This will reduce the wages at the insolvent clubs and allow younger cheaper talent to be developed . Wasps , London Irish , Worcester , Jersey, Richmond all bankrupt thoiase clubs destroyed and you want to argue that the RFU and PL are in control .
Correction Willis did not choose to lay in France. He lost his job and understandably chose job security. If he choose to come back like Mercer he has no guarantee of an England place so why should he take the risk when his first duty is to his family. This unjust and plain stupid rule needs changing. there are only ten Premier teams stuffed with overseas players many of them mark players so stop this victimisation of our top talent.
He didn’t initially when he went there because of the wasps situation but it was when he signed an extension to his initial short term contract with Toulouse he was then deemed to have chosen to play abroad, therefore making him ineligible
What did you want him to do, up his family settle in France for a short time and come back and hopefully get a descent salary, with undecided unconfirmed central contract promises, 13 teams becoming 10, it’s not as binary as it once was, maybe the English game should have been better managed so these things didn’t happen.
Originally he played in France because he lost his job at Wasps but then he had a chance to comeback but chose to sign for Toulouse.
This policy has to be changed... England needs Willis... he's strong, cunning and generous... if you don't want him, we'll give him the french nationality ;-)
:D seriously, how can England do without a player like him?
If he wants the French nationality! We give him right now ! 😂
Right away. At least the Macron administration will have done one good thing. Mr Willis we love you in Toulouse.
Yes WE clone him like Dupont for Roland Garros, olympics games, MMA...etc
Seriously, what a player!
WE love Jack.
Willis and others International players of the Stade Toulousain, have been revealing their huge talent. As you said, when you play for Toulouse, you have to be the best and you become the best because you are given the responsability to make your group the best one! Toulouse is all about a culture and tradition of rugby in this city
Yes, when you see the third row of Toulouse you need to be one of the best player of the world to play. Cros, roumat, jelonch (who's injured for the moment) ntamack brother, castro fereira who's the revelation of the season, ans Willis. And with Toulouse management we also saw mauvaka playing there and flamment. It's a madness.
What a player! What a man! What a game! He was instrumental in our victory. Thank you Jack!!
Which English club would Willis like to play for? This season
Toulouse harlequins 38 - 26
Toulouse exeter 64 - 26
Toulouse bath 31 - 19
Harlequins toulouse 19 - 47
It comes to something when there is a report of 4 South Africans potentially being looked at to play for England but the English Jack Willis cant be picked because he plays across the channel
Absurd!
It seems like England Rugby are shooting themselves in the foot with an automatic repeatedly
Hi guys
I'm french, i'm a Toulouse fan and you MUST take him for your national team, even though he plays in France. Stop to these stupids rules you can play both for toulouse and England team . I think he will become better if he plays for his country ...This man is a monster ! If he was from New Zealand he would be a planet star .
Believe me, i see him play week after week and he 's always at this level
can someone ask Zach Mercer how returning to England worked out?
The main difference is that Zach hasn't proved himself time and time again in an England shirt and isn't probably 4th/5th choice number 8 at the moment. He got shown up against the Bulls and doesn't seem to have what Borthwick wants in an 8... plus, would you really replace Ben Earl for anybody right now? The man is a machine.... Willis is a shoe-in at 7 alongside Underhill in comparison.
Jack W should be eligible. Especially if you are going to allow half of South Africa to play for England if they live there for 5 years...
It is absurd when you look at it like that... for players of his calibre with caps for England there should be AT LEAST an exception.
In a sport that causes head trauma and permanent physical discomfort post career, I think most players will always just choose money and that's fine. If England wants players in England, pay them much more money. Otherwise, keep your rules but just accept you will never win a WC again
Why don’t England go for a rule where you need to have spent 5 years in England to be eligible ? Or one half of their professional years ?
South Africa changed its policy to select overseas players and we have two world cups back to back , what it does is , enables you to build depth as other players get opportunities to play in the premiership and to select your best players overseas. If England does not see this then they are going to be left behind.
100% agree your top 3.
Jack is outstanding brillant hard worker, cool and smart guy. May be in the top 3 world back row. I live in Toulouse and really havé a lot of respect for Jack. Sometimes players have to change of mind to restart carrer. Hé made not an easy choice to play with us accepting the rule. Not useful to punish him for national squad. Hé desserve to play for England. May be make an exception of the rules for him.
He deserves to play for a team which recognise him at his fair value : France
Wasps folded so he went to Toulouse. Surely they can make an exception on that basis
They need to make an exception for all the players which they should. If they open the doors more players will become better.
The argument on overseas is misguided. The secret to generating talent is youth and the French get it right with their JIFF requirements. Letting senior players ply their trade overseas is and can only ever be a benefit as Jack Willis is proving - Toulouse has helped him elevate his game. And if England want to be retrograde on these issues, fine, but then let Jack Jacques?) play for France. We'll gladly play him as starting 6 with Aldritt at 8 and Olivon at 7. Best back row in the world.
Actually the benefit of including overseas players is that you get them developing their game under different coaching styles. Gibson Park is a good example. NZ coaching was not where he became his best version. Would NZ turn him down if he was currently eligible?
While France has an excellent youth system, this was also achieved through no salary limits and a vast amount of great deal more investment of the last decade or more.
English, Welsh and Scottish clubs in particular, do not have the luxury and fortune of this currently, even if they could do better at attracting support and investors.
So it isn't really as simple as waving a magic wand.
I find it strange, there're 4 saffas in line for England caps, but Willis is excluded. Look at the system used by SA, they get the benefit a reduced salary bill, but players with knowledge and experience in most of the leagues and conditions which can then be harnessed in the boks.
It has to change just look at SA they don’t do it and yet they are back to back world champs and it always sticks with me what Rassie said about it, he said something along the lines of he wants his best players playing abroad to block pathways for other countries and then in SA they can give their young players game time he gave the example of Faf at Sale blocking Quirk’s development. We’ve seen time and time again English players going to France and being world player or European player of the year but can’t play for England, it makes zero sense and needs to be changed
Better for Jack Willis, he will apply for French naturalization (he has relaunched his career and boosted his level like never before in the best club in the world in France, and he has successfully settled an happy family life in France as well from now on), he will have it, he deserves it, and he will play with Les Bleus de France! 😁
That's what England deserves.
The RFU deserve that
He will never play for France lol you guys are so entitled it’s a joke
@@Jam43341why not?
After all england was colonised by french kings 🤭
@@swann67000 he’s already said he wants to play for England and a move back is a possibility. Lol, I’m sure you have your trusty white flag in your back pocket ready also 🤣
Jim (and Bernard Jackman & Sam Warburton) are 100% RIGHT. Players forced out of the Gallagher through League and club mismanagement, should retain eligibility.
Andy (and Bill Sweeney & yes-man Borthers) are 100% WRONG.
How exactly has the Board of the Gallagher Prem protected the interests of English players and English clubs over the last 4 years?? - name even ONE thing !
This, 100% this. It's laughable, all they need to do is limit the number of players you can select playing overseas, 2 or 3 players tops, a mass exodus of players wont kill the prem, and as has be painfully apparent from the last 2 years it's financial mismanagement that's doing the damage.
@@gs8494. Dead right - a version of the Top14 JIFF rule would create so many more opportunities for England-qualified players to ply their trade at home.
Eg. How many English born centres start for the 10 clubs each round of the premiership season?? Out of the 20 available slots last year, I’m guessing the average was maybe 12?
I think the rule should stay in place looking at the bigger picture all the top English players would end up in France the prem would become weaker . But the prem can’t afford pop star wages like in France all the players know they sacrificing playing for England when jumping ship . Yes Jack Willis had to go to Toulouse for job security and rightly so but you telling me no prem sides have tried to get his signature? All comes down to money pops star wages or play for England
@@tigerclarence1248 weaker how, they already don’t compete well in the champions cup and don’t tell me it was good this season, yes it did exceed expectation’s, being real though France have two or 3 better clubs Ireland have Leinster, I expect the South Africans to get better in it over time.
If the RFU really want England to compete with the best, they have to ensure that their coach can select the best players. Difficult issues such as player availability and protecting the premiership from players leaving must be solved and that is the job of the RFU. They have had a decade plus to resolve this. Please do not defend the status quo, it is simply unacceptable.
This RFU rule is amusingly masochist and perfectly sums up England rugby lack of success since few years. England protective selection policy is counter-productive as the national team needs fresh ideas to develop attack, defence, breakdown. A guy like Willis could bring all his Top14 learnings and demanding level... But England selectors prefer to rely on their traditional force and forwards game.
Jack Willis 👍 a trouvé à Toulouse un système de jeu qui lui convient, non sclérosé, ouvert, plein d’audace….en fait le jeu toulousain !
Chessman not on same level but decent back up, Tom Curry not hit any form in 3 years while his brother lives off Tom.
Earls & Willis are international level & should be in no question.
Changing the rule will mean an absolute exodus will happen in regard to players leaving the local competitions. It's not about England wanting certain players to play for England it should be the other way around where the player wants to play for England.
Yes there will be an exodus to begin with, but guaranteed English clubs will find good replacements for those players and it will ultimately elevate the level of play in England once things settle down. You also then have players who don't feel like they're forced to play there because of selection laws
Who came up with this stupid policy in the first place?
Obviously someone who thought they could control the home market place without the guarantee of anyone ever being selected in the first place.
What do they expect a gifted player to do? He has at the very best an 18 year career at the sharp end of a high risk of injury. The chance of playing 10 international games per year is only ever a very rare reward, which depends so much on other people:- the coach, his associates, supporting players.
Any player has to go for the best deal he can get for himself. If he gets selected to start a match, that’s great, but every player has just to try to get to the very zenith of his ability and enjoy it for as long as he can.
Can anyone tell me the exact reasons why England rugby has this policy?
Pick him for the Lions tour. But your missing the point re England. The rule is there and he chose to play abroad (he would have been picked by another English Premiere team) & that rule is in place to protect the Premiere league.
Exactly. Some of these players look to go overseas to have a break from international rugby. They may not want to play for England and this is nice way to have that sabbatical, enjoy your rugby at club level and earn more money.
I agree with your point if the premiership was a good development league that didn't have so many players from abroad taking places of developing English players...I like the fact many overseas players are in the premiership but don't punish the talent building and then complain when they go abroad to get a pay check...there should be rules put in place for English players that have a certain number of international caps if you want a happy medium
So why do you want to pick up to 4our South African born players?
Toulouse players have not the highest salaries of top 14. Many players of other teams are more payed than Antoine Dupont. That's why Colby left Toulouse to play with Toulon.
BUT playing for Toulouse gives you trophies, fame. That why they join this club. When Toulouse offers a player to join, the answer is immediatly Yes.
Its easy to sit on the sidelines and have an opinion on the rules to protect the premiership. South Africa tried that route and realised that it doesn't work for us. When we enforced that rule our national team was weaker. Maybe England is in that same boat. We would like to see you play your absolute best players in every position. Your rugby is following your football. Great clubs mediocre national team. Is that really what you want?
"Great clubs mediocre national team." you're talking about France too?:)
"Great clubs mediocre national team." you're talking about France too?:)
An English Exiles team (players who haven’t been consistently selected for a bit despite playing well, or have gone over seas).
1. Val Rapava Ruskin
2. Harry Thacker
3. Tim Hoyt
4. Dave Ribbans
5. Charlie Ewels
6. Sam Simmonds
7. Jack Willis
8. Zach Mercer
9. Raffi Quirke
10. Jacob Umaga
11. Ollie Sleightholm
12. Dan Kelly
13. Joe Marchant
14. Gabriel Ibitoye
15. Henry Arundell
Haven’t put in players like Farrell, or Nowells, as I don’t know if they’re actually retiring but haven’t said it outright yet from international duties.
Goode nails it. From a practical point of view is Jack Willis that much better to have during a six nations campaign, where he's going to be going back to Toulouse to play in the two rest weeks, than the options (who will get rested) in the prem? I don't think so - I'd much rather put test minutes into one of the myriad of alternatives that the prem is offering. At this moment in time Willis isn't a necessity - he's a "nice to have". Maybe in the lead up to the WC there'll be a few leg breaks and he can become an exceptional circumstance pick but that's really the only situation he should be picked in whilst he's in France.
IMO the one thing that drives fan numbers up is national team success. If England win all the clubs benefit. Fan engagement has never been better then after 2003. Also I would suggest that having player spend time in France, NZ, RSA etc should be encouraged. Pick the best team irrespective of where they are currently playing, increase fan interest and club profits to a point where they can offer bteer deals to players to stay in England
He has not been banned. He has chosen to make himself unavailable.No difference to players "going north" during the amateur game.
I don't understand the English, they don't mind picking a South African or N/Z'er but then picking a born and bred Englishman is an issue...
The exception just has to be made for "players who moved abroad because their club folded", not "Jack Willis specifically". It can't be that hard to phrase it to make a clear difference between a player who was transferred or chose a contract abroad, and one who signed abroad because he suddenly was jobless.
that would surely mean impose a time limit though, if the point is to encourage players to be in the prem. I don’t agree with it, but Jack extending his contract would make him outside of that extenuating position anyway
@@SweptDust5340 Yes and no.
Rugby players are human beings, and moving to a different country is quite different from moving to a different city. You can see it as a temporary gig, or you can decide to settle, bring your family with you, etc.
And a player who just lost his job is probably not in the mindset to think "it's just a temporary setback, surely I will get another job back home in no time, I'll just take a small suitcase with me". Considering the circumstances of Willis' arrival in Toulouse - three different teams had folded at roughly the same time - he can hardly be blamed for settling there and not being in any hurry to move back home.
Because really, it's kinda the RFU's fault he is playing there now. If they had their act together he would never have had to job hunt in Southern France.
@@Skinineful yeah no i agree intuitively with you but i can’t see the RFU allowing for players who extended contract in the foreign country. I would want them to get rid of the rule all together, or give a 3 year grace period to all players to go abroad and still be allowed to play for england. Getting Willis in is a priority above that though, so I do hope you are right and they sort it in a way to get him in
I find it ironic how this podcast raves about the French league and how amazing French rugby is, from the league to the national team, but when it comes to England, Jim changes his mind and believes they should be selecting overseas players. the French have the best league in the world and one of the best national teams and they have the rule. if u wanna play for England play in England. i personally dont want to kill the league
False, we never had this rule in France. We can select a French players from everywhere. A fews years ago, the English League was more powerful, and we had French players there, we still select them.
@@jos-hs1jtyour wrong. You can’t name one French player who was playing in England who got selected for France.
Antoine Frisch plays for Munster and was selected, to play for France, Patrick Tuifua was also selected with the u20 and he plays in new Zealand
France hasn’t condensed 13 teams to 10 either, ultimately if you can afford to pay a core group of players the correct wedge you have to expect them to earn it elsewhere, given the injury woes Willis had and Wasps folding, multiple players out of contract scrabbling for salaries who can blame him.
@@sonyjim3597 Antoine Frisch, Frédéric Michalak, Louis Picamoles.
And that's just on top of my mind.
You are wrong, we don't have such rules
They didnt even use him when he was in the world cup squad
France will gladly have him in its setup. World class No 6 indeed!!
Just out of interest what happens to J Willis when Jelonch is fully fit? And didn't Jack do an interview with the Rugby Pod in which he picked Jelonch as the Toulouse best No.7?
Supporting the current selection policy is politics, not sport. It’s support for a failing league setup rather than for the England team. Madness not to select Englishmen wherever they play.
I agree to give him french nationality...😁
The glazing is crazy. He’s class but England have immense depth in the backrow with players who arguably offer a lot more around the pitch along with the breakdown. The rule is there to protect the integrating of the league that also helps to supply the national team.
surely the sensible decision is for the RFU to start working on securing Jack Willis to play in England in 2027 so he is available for the 2028 world cup but there has to certain guarantees' , like for example he will be played in the first 3 internationals so that we do not have a " Mercer" situation and his finances are similar to France.
As a Welsh bloke who sees the parallel.. How can any international team select elect to not select the most ridiculously good players based on their professional choices continue? We all want to keep the best players n our leagues, but... nose/face dichotomy is big.
No they shouldn’t lift the ban and everyone saying they should just folllow media hype led by podcasts like this rather than actually using their brain. The reason the players have to play in England is access. People have short memory and forget the years of struggle of negation between the rfu and clubs over access to England players. That’s why Woodward resigned as coach because he couldn’t access the players enough. U then throw that out the window if u allow in foreign players. Then half the squad would not be available for training, we see how half of scotlands squad get recalled during the six nations. Then everyone would be moaning saying, the rfu sacrificed the england team for players to wealthier. U can’t have overseas players and the access England coaches want to build effective teams.
I won't listen to anyone who can't be bothered to type 3 letters instead of 'u'. Get your head looked at
South Africa have won back to back World Cups with players from 6 different leagues. Wake up.....
What are you talking about....clubs have gone bust & players were forced abroad. Its a stupid rule from top to tale regardless
SA lifted the ban.
Forget the law as this is an exception no one else would get in with except maybe Arundel if he ups his performances. Or unless another club with world class players goes bust in which case there are bigger problems to worry about
Considering his horrendous injury am sure JW is Relishing playing Rugby full stop!
I know this will blow up!
But Born in New Zealand you if successful play for your National Team and so on World Wide !
Born England hopefully play for England!
Yes. Every home nations ridiculous policy of caps is utterly stupid. If your good enough you should be in the national team. It's pathetic and counter productive.
Goodeys spot on here to be fair
I realise there are issues and nothing is straightforward but my preference would be England team made up of England players as opposed to England team made up of the best of the Prem I.e. including overseas players via residency. This surely can be achieved and I think it is something that world rugby should look into. If football can make it work surely rugby can.
toulousain here,like we says in france,you need to walk but shoot your foot...
Hope he goes with the lions and has a stormer and again opens the worlds eyes to him
Get him on a central contract at Bath or saracens
This rule is similar as USSR mindset that never allowed its athletes (whatever the sport) to play for teams abroad.
Officially 33 tackles is Jack Willis's count by TNTs stats
33 tackles but 31 successful
Can't we just offer certain players special contracts??? We wouldn't have a mass exodus from the Prem if only a handful of players were offered hybrid contracts...
I'm of the same opinion, the To14 players play too much and the championship is really very high, look at the state they arrived in at the World Cup...the body can't sweat after a while, in the long term England has a good vision!
Perhaps spots will be opened for new " up and comers" Goodie, cross polination is good, you enjoyed your time at the Sharks 😅
Players can't just head to France and expect the rules to change.
Take responsibility and negotiate a contract in France that gives England access to you for all training weeks and fallow 6N weeks.
Then you can turn around to the RFU and say you're available for selection. And it would be impossible for them to ignore.
@least make a rule that says 60 or 70% must be based in England and the rest overseas based because if England want to beat The All Blacks they must pick the best available team
Yes, get rid of it. It’s insane that the CEOs of Premiership clubs in a recent BBC article were saying that the policy is helping the league go forward…🤦🏾♂️
Roumat was motm for me totally unsung hero.
As a South African england really is confusing me with its plain idiocy
They would rather call up 4 South Africans into their team to carry them than change a rule and let their own players play for them. All this says to me is that they dont believe their players who are playing overseas are as good as the fringe SA players and so youd rather just have them than bother with their own people
Your speculating Borthwick hasn’t called up ‘4 South Africans’ yet. If these 4 make themselves available and they get selected then your point has merit. However you are trying to blend two separate issues, player eligibility which is a WR issue, and the RFUs policy on overseas players selection for England suggesting that Englands preference is to select eligible South African players . Selection of eligible foreign players is not the objective of this RFU policy, it is rather the opposite.
It’s nothing new , until 2018 South Africa had a similar policy, Australia, NZ , Wales have all done the same.
agree with you Jim
Why should Kinghorn play for Scotland BUT no Willis for England ??
Stupid english 😂!
The rfu are dinosaurs if a player is playing well dose it matter what country you play in
Jacques Willis is french as far as I 'm concerned
Should've stayed unemployed after Wasps and hoped for an England call up. What a joke.
Kitsoff was injured so probs well rested
Haven’t even started the vid and I will say yes yes yes
He good
Do you honestly think that the Curry poufs are on the same level as Jack Willis?
If Willis plays for England he won’t have an English referee though. Might impact his penalty count 😆
"Through no fault of his own", nonsense statement, he had a choice and he chose France, also there are players in the Gallagher everybit as good as Willis and they are here, the fans can see them and build a bond with them, leave it in place and apply it across the board.
Bit subjective, every bit as good, I can think of very, very few, more if I cast my net to having a ceiling to being that good but here and now, not really…
He is welcome to play in France 😊
I maybe controversial, but no we shouldn’t lift the ban. I would go further and say anyone who goes to play in France should be banned for life from playing for England. We have to protect our national leagues and game. The fans in our country deserve to watch the best English players and not second rate players. Also do we really want to go down the same road as cricket where Indian money dominates cricket. No other tournament is allowed to conflict with the IPL. The same will happen in Rugby with the Top 14. They will decide who can play for their countries when it suits them.
If uou are going to ban English players out of contract or let go by their clubs because they have gone under from earning a living in France. Are you going to renumere these players instead ? Why punish these players fo yaking an opportunity of rearning a living playing abroad
And what about SA's players ? You must be honest in this case..
Nobody or everybody not just English or Scottish players who play in France 😂
And, more, Wasps and English team didn't permit him to perform and progress like Toulouse did.
Of another topic stop selecting foreign based players and focus on developing YOUR LOCAL talent stop lurking overseas players for a pay check
Too much backwards old fashioned amateur mentality. Just change the rule.
Du Pont is the Messi of Rugby.. Willis is superb 👌 Idiot Bill Beaument etc
English fans want to see the strongest best players regardless of where they play their club rugby. I challenge the RFU to conduct polls to confirm fans wishes.
It’s a stupid policy and England plus even New Zealand need to change the policy
From a broader context, World Rugby has done a better job in aligning the club & country calendars but needs to finish the job so that everyone in the world is playing club and country rugby separately to also give the players more of an extended period of rest and off time
No please! Let borthwick and english brexit deal with their bullshit😉
Borthwick and English Brexit ‘ whatever that is ? 😂😂😂😂
Please Einstein, tell us what either got to do with the RFU England policy on England selection ?
100% needs scrapping. Although like with mercer, I don’t think SB would pick him.
lets demolish AG arguments. The payment that the RFU would make for any player can be paid and divided between all the clubs . do freanch players play any more rugby than overseas players in France ? let the best players go to France , its the best league in the world at the moment . This will reduce the wages at the insolvent clubs and allow younger cheaper talent to be developed . Wasps , London Irish , Worcester , Jersey, Richmond all bankrupt thoiase clubs destroyed and you want to argue that the RFU and PL are in control .