Incredible that this report was even partly taken seriously given it was written by authors who had such obvious vested interests against public transport.
Australia - the lucky country - where National party thugs can steal in full view of the world (Taylor) and mates can get special government deals where you don't have to actually do anything. Where banks can dictate policy like housing supply, where developers can recommend FHBG. Where KPMG and PWC can recommend privatizing government and SERCO can recommend privatising military. But most of all - National party members and state water body department managers - who own cotton farms - can legalise water harvesting from a limited supply while getting billions of liters of water for free, where there are no consequences except the farmers downstream left with nothing. Then there is the gas companies - Santos etc recommending that we allow them to export gas with no domestic reserve putting prices of energy up wile losing hundreds of thousands of jobs. I.e - our politicians are corrupt - inept - ignorant or mendacious. But what they historically have rarely been is honest.
The reason for commissioning the report was because the railways were haemorrhaging taxpayers money. I love railways, but realistically I'm also a taxpayer and it makes no economic (or social) sense to subsidize maintenance of railway lines which have almost no passengers. The report itself was economically centric. But perhaps that's what the government wanted....the government was ultimately the one that needs to tax the people to run the services.... And if tax isn't covering it what would you do? Treat it like your own family budget and you'll understand. It's not like the government was rolling in money and can run picturesque railway services to "nowhere" just for the fun of it. Ultimately the people owned cars because they much prefer the convenience and speed of travel. The people voted with their cars. Even these days suburban public transport makes a loss and is heavily subsidized in spite of all the upgrades to rolling stock. The social "good" is there.... But all taxpayers are paying for it. In a selfish way I'm personally glad for the lines that were kept open. But on another hand I wonder if Victoria would be in a stronger economic position and less taxed if some of the least profitable lines were replaced with busses. More than the train lines themselves I wish I could step into the good old days when those lines had profitable industries with hard working men loading the trains, and the train was important and the only way in and out of town.
@@hifivaliant8937 Freeways are also very expensive. On the point of economics you can't just look at headline costs when you're a government - car trips suck money out of our economy while train trips add to it.
Imagine if during the 80s your regional state rail service was replaced with coaches. As a South Australian this does NOT seem like an unrealistic scenario.
I live in Cohuna, where rail is no longer served, 30 minutes away from the nearest rail station Pyramid Hill. The few coaches served are nearly a lifeline to me and my brother to make it to our dads on the other side of the state. PT is very important!
of course the first thing you do with a business in difficulties is rebrand and change livery! It amazes me that the accounting standards applied to public transport are not applied to roads and highways....
You don’t need to. Understand one thing: people like cars. They like driving. Get over it. No mattter how frequent rural rail trains are they are point to point and always will be. They cannot compete with cars and you and many like you think people are just waiting for better trains. Yes, they are if they want to go point to point but very few for example will go by train from Benalla to Wangaratta no matter the frequency when you can do more with a car.
@@xr6lad Not everybody likes driving. Driving these days sucks...too much traffic, too many trucks, there are bloody idiots on the roads who shouldn't be driving at all and many roads are crap...breaking up and maintenance can't keep up. Many young people in particular have no interest in driving or even getting their license. I have 2 cars that I hardly ever drive and I prefer to take the train, even if it's between Benalla and Wangaratta because it's cheaper and no stress.
In the 1950s and 60s VR went about making expensive improvements and upgrades to staion buildings and DRs. The following year they produced financial reports showing the line costs were 100 times that of patronage. Thus the lines were closed as uneconomic. If the maintenance had been spread over the actual years of existence the cost would have looked far more reasonable (still no profit, but reasonable).
I think if the tram lines were ripped up and the lines closed as intended, it would have looked like Sydney's Eastern Suburbs and Northern Beaches. Northern Beaches still has no trains and Military Rd is extremely congested by cars. This is the same with Eastern Suburbs before the light rail was added back in - Anzac Parade was congested by cars and a conga line of buses.
In my recollection Hamer and the Transport minister were just itching to close rail lines and I suppose they were justified in doing so given the performance during the ‘70s. In 2023 I’d like to think we live in an enlightened era but this was not the feeling in 1980, many ordinary people thoight cars were more efficient and there were several waves of industrial action that reinforced this view. I only managed to convince one work collegue to take the Southern Aurora to Sydney instead of flying. He enjoyed it snd it did not occur to me that in Sydney Central station he could grab his case and go straight into a taxi instead of the rigmorole at the airport. He also enjoyed sitting in the dining car and be waited on by waiters in white uniforms with the curly gold VR with wings.
I did the Southern Aurora in mid 70s with two school friends and a Japanese exchange student. We then took the "South Western Mail" to ? (Griffith?) Then motorrail to Jerilderie the Southern Aurora was stainless steel and laminex with great burgers (for 17 year olds) the Mail all startched sheet, woken with tea in monogrammed china cups in timber panelled rooms. It was a great way to travel!
@@anthonywatts2033 I don't recall burgers on the menu on the Southern Aurora. However the Spirit of Progress buffet car probably sold burgers. Moreover, to connect to the South West Mail you would also need to have travelled on the Spirit of Progress as it stopped at junction stations such as Wagga, Cootamundra, Junee etc whereas the Southern Aurora was express through those towns.
@mikevale3620 you may be correct however also my initial post was imprecise. It was the Spirit or Aurora Melb to Syd, then the Mail sydney to ? where we changed, before the Motor rail to Jerilderie. Sorry but at almost 50 years ago, my memories are a little imprecise!
@@anthonywatts2033 Timetables varied over the years and some mail trains went from Sydney, likely in your case to Junee, then branched off to Griffith. The rail motor you caught would likely have started at Narrandera to go to Jerilderie. Your memory's pretty good so don't beat yourself up about it. Knowing the 'Aurora dining car menu as I remember it, burgers were definitely not on that menu as it was a first class service. However the Spirit had one silver sleeping car like the 'Aurora and the rest of the cars were VR blue with gold streamlining, so perhaps that was your train bearing in mind the 'Aurora only stopped at Albury and Goulburn for crew changes and only in later years for passengers. If you travelled with your friends later in the 1980's you may have travelled on the Sydney Express which was a mashup of 'Aurora and 'Spirit cars into one overnight train, which would have had the buffet car and the dining car attached.
Same sort of thing happened here in New Zealand, with the "then" Minister of Railways (Peter Gordon) who was also the Minister of Transport (at the same time) had a CONFLICT OF INTEREST as he also had a VERY LARGE shareholding in one specific road transport company operating in the road transport of livestock "industry", and that was why - as a conflict of interests - saw him DEREGULATE the 150 km road stock-cartage restrictions, allowing stock trucks to carry, "from farm to freezing works" livestock to be killed at various distant freezing works (previously only serviced by rail) , to avoid the Railways having a monopoly on long distance haulage. The conflict of interests meant that as a shareholder of a trucking business, he (deliberately) compromised the rail network, in preference to road transport (done purely to increase the value of his shareholding of a trucking business) By thus allowing MORE long / heavy / smelly stock-trucks onto the already clogged NZ Roading network, that (ONE) Govt Minister "Peter Gordon" effectively killed the NZR's ability to carry ANY livestock as trucks had previously had to cart from farm to railway stations nearest the farms, to then have he trains transport long distances to freezing works, to then either tranship to trucks again - or have livestock kept in railway wagons until unloaded - and thus the demise of the NZR as a carrier of livestock and very soon after that general freight quickly ended (as more & more goods were shipped excessively long distances, by trucks alone). It was this massive decline in livestock movements alone - that saw way too many small NZ Railway Branch lines closed - with even the massively long Otago Central Branch which was closed almost entirely - with only the tourist route between Wingatui & Middlemarch - later shrunk to terminate at the Pukerangi Station - for the Taieri Gorge Tourist Trains, being kept open and not uplifted. Sometimes it isn't the right thing, to have (in respect to the NZR) any parliamentary individual (or in respect to an Australian horse racing expert) to have too much influence on the outcome of their respective reports - that directly conflict with their own personal interests - that they then abuse, by feathering their personal (financial) interests above & beyond those of their supposed true governance issues, which they cover-up, to create a financial bias for themselves.. The loss of MANY small rural gallops racecourses around NZ, just so that ONE influential Australian gallops advisor could shut down so many competitive racecourses here in NZ - instead of closing a lot of non profitable events in Australia - begs the same question .. ? Who gave him the right hand of GOD to destroy many NZ racing events (held in high esteem by their NZ owners and clients alike..? Thus - it's the same everywhere. When someone is given two polar opposite jobs to do, can they perform those jobs CORRECTLY, if they have a personal financial interest in keeping one in business instead of the other?
Can you explain what happened to South Australia's rail network, how they closed down the network and why did they do that the same way you did for this video please ?
If you are interested, there is a really interesting video by @metromanmelbourne about how the upfield line was nearly converted into a light rail. The line's poor frequency today is mostly to blame for the cuts made to the network in the 1990s, hopefully more services can run when the Metro Tunnel is done!
@ 2:54. You left off the Beechworth line which closed December 1976. Plus funny on that map is no Bright line which didn’t close until the early 1980’s?
Kennett declined to fund the XPT from Sydney so it was run entirely by Countrylink. I think the cost was $4M which would have paid for one XPT carset. Kennett’s idea was that any business could run any country service and this did happen with Hoy’s running the Shepparton trains and West Coast running the Warrnambool line. Also some freight lines were also cut, such as the Timboon line and particularly the Balmoral line where farmers threatened to block the track and the local Liberal member lost his seat. The unions warned the farmers not to abuse train crews.
I'm so glad that some of the great VR lines are still with us as a passenger service and for frieght. Yes it's not what it once was and certainly imperfect. However I'm glad that the attitude (are our tax payer dollars) are slowely being funneled into new ideas for the system.
A very interesting video, if the report was followed without exceptions, just think of the horrendous cost to the tax payer today, based on the global warming situation, to re instate all the current lines that are still in use that would have been closed & ripped up, once again this should be a warning about commissioning reports only looking at the current information & thinking, without considering the future.
You mean like reinstating the previous double track ripped up by Labor between Kyneton and Bendigo? Only in the last 15 years? While population is booming and which now contests the track and service. Or standardising Ararat to Horsham so we can not run direct Melb- Horsham trains anymore? Again only relatively recently.
well I am from NSW & although I worked for NSWGR & all the other names it had from 1964 to 2005 there has been many strange decisions going on in this state as well, I don't understand converting rail corridors from double to single track, I have heard the reason given to justify it, reduce cost of track maintenance, & converting sections rail corridors from broad to standard gauge is a unfortunate outcome of the decision over one hundred & fifty years ago, I suspect in the fullness of time most of the still open country rail corridors will be converted to standard gauge, the suburban rail network will remain 5'-3'', in those area's where both is required there will be duel gauge, the one good thing happening in your state regarding rail, is the return of country passenger services & I suspect this will continue to improve if the public demands it.
Hold on. You’re a bit all over the place. The conversion of the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines to light rail didn’t occur until 20 years later 4 governments later. Nothing to do with the Lonie Report.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Incredible that this report was even partly taken seriously given it was written by authors who had such obvious vested interests against public transport.
You mean questioning why we rang trains for 3 people a day? Yea
Australia - the lucky country - where National party thugs can steal in full view of the world (Taylor) and mates can get special government deals where you don't have to actually do anything. Where banks can dictate policy like housing supply, where developers can recommend FHBG. Where KPMG and PWC can recommend privatizing government and SERCO can recommend privatising military. But most of all - National party members and state water body department managers - who own cotton farms - can legalise water harvesting from a limited supply while getting billions of liters of water for free, where there are no consequences except the farmers downstream left with nothing. Then there is the gas companies - Santos etc recommending that we allow them to export gas with no domestic reserve putting prices of energy up wile losing hundreds of thousands of jobs.
I.e - our politicians are corrupt - inept - ignorant or mendacious. But what they historically have rarely been is honest.
The reason for commissioning the report was because the railways were haemorrhaging taxpayers money. I love railways, but realistically I'm also a taxpayer and it makes no economic (or social) sense to subsidize maintenance of railway lines which have almost no passengers. The report itself was economically centric. But perhaps that's what the government wanted....the government was ultimately the one that needs to tax the people to run the services.... And if tax isn't covering it what would you do? Treat it like your own family budget and you'll understand. It's not like the government was rolling in money and can run picturesque railway services to "nowhere" just for the fun of it. Ultimately the people owned cars because they much prefer the convenience and speed of travel. The people voted with their cars. Even these days suburban public transport makes a loss and is heavily subsidized in spite of all the upgrades to rolling stock. The social "good" is there.... But all taxpayers are paying for it. In a selfish way I'm personally glad for the lines that were kept open. But on another hand I wonder if Victoria would be in a stronger economic position and less taxed if some of the least profitable lines were replaced with busses.
More than the train lines themselves I wish I could step into the good old days when those lines had profitable industries with hard working men loading the trains, and the train was important and the only way in and out of town.
@@hifivaliant8937 Freeways are also very expensive. On the point of economics you can't just look at headline costs when you're a government - car trips suck money out of our economy while train trips add to it.
How Melbourne could Have become a worse Adelaide:
Eh, other then late-night security I think it'd still be an improvement. There'd still be regional coaches for a start, and a regional railway line.
@@BaileyChap Lol, South Australia really got screwed over badly for anything regional, do they not even have coaches to towns? I didn't know that.
Lmao
@@TazzieTransportonly run by a private company which are extremely irregular and expensive
"This might seem like an extremely unlikely scenario."
*Cries in American*
Imagine if during the 80s your regional state rail service was replaced with coaches. As a South Australian this does NOT seem like an unrealistic scenario.
Australian national, getting there is half the fun!
The organisation that destroyed The Overland & greatly cut back East West trains like The Indian Pacific.@@viathealtonaloop
As a Tasmanian it's even more relatable
This is a very interesting video in my opinion, thanks for making it.
Thanks!
I live in Cohuna, where rail is no longer served, 30 minutes away from the nearest rail station Pyramid Hill. The few coaches served are nearly a lifeline to me and my brother to make it to our dads on the other side of the state. PT is very important!
of course the first thing you do with a business in difficulties is rebrand and change livery! It amazes me that the accounting standards applied to public transport are not applied to roads and highways....
It has actually worked in a few cases. 1960s Canadian National and BR's Network SouthEast come to mind.
That's not quite true, particularly in Victoria's case where V/Line has been in existence for around 40 years.
You don’t need to. Understand one thing: people like cars. They like driving. Get over it. No mattter how frequent rural rail trains are they are point to point and always will be. They cannot compete with cars and you and many like you think people are just waiting for better trains. Yes, they are if they want to go point to point but very few for example will go by train from Benalla to Wangaratta no matter the frequency when you can do more with a car.
@@xr6lad Not everybody likes driving. Driving these days sucks...too much traffic, too many trucks, there are bloody idiots on the roads who shouldn't be driving at all and many roads are crap...breaking up and maintenance can't keep up. Many young people in particular have no interest in driving or even getting their license. I have 2 cars that I hardly ever drive and I prefer to take the train, even if it's between Benalla and Wangaratta because it's cheaper and no stress.
@xr6lad this claim isn't evidenced by that fact that increased frequency always leads to increased patronage. This is a pretty well known phenomenon.
Awesome video Zac 👍 Really informative and well put together, great job mate.
Thanks!
In the 1950s and 60s VR went about making expensive improvements and upgrades to staion buildings and DRs. The following year they produced financial reports showing the line costs were 100 times that of patronage. Thus the lines were closed as uneconomic. If the maintenance had been spread over the actual years of existence the cost would have looked far more reasonable (still no profit, but reasonable).
The VicRail trading name started in 1974. The teacup scheme didn’t appear until 1981. Your video makes it sound like they happened simultaneously.
I think if the tram lines were ripped up and the lines closed as intended, it would have looked like Sydney's Eastern Suburbs and Northern Beaches. Northern Beaches still has no trains and Military Rd is extremely congested by cars. This is the same with Eastern Suburbs before the light rail was added back in - Anzac Parade was congested by cars and a conga line of buses.
In my recollection Hamer and the Transport minister were just itching to close rail lines and I suppose they were justified in doing so given the performance during the ‘70s. In 2023 I’d like to think we live in an enlightened era but this was not the feeling in 1980, many ordinary people thoight cars were more efficient and there were several waves of industrial action that reinforced this view.
I only managed to convince one work collegue to take the Southern Aurora to Sydney instead of flying. He enjoyed it snd it did not occur to me that in Sydney Central station he could grab his case and go straight into a taxi instead of the rigmorole at the airport. He also enjoyed sitting in the dining car and be waited on by waiters in white uniforms with the curly gold VR with wings.
I did the Southern Aurora in mid 70s with two school friends and a Japanese exchange student. We then took the "South Western Mail" to ? (Griffith?) Then motorrail to Jerilderie the Southern Aurora was stainless steel and laminex with great burgers (for 17 year olds) the Mail all startched sheet, woken with tea in monogrammed china cups in timber panelled rooms.
It was a great way to travel!
@@anthonywatts2033 I don't recall burgers on the menu on the Southern Aurora. However the Spirit of Progress buffet car probably sold burgers. Moreover, to connect to the South West Mail you would also need to have travelled on the Spirit of Progress as it stopped at junction stations such as Wagga, Cootamundra, Junee etc whereas the Southern Aurora was express through those towns.
@mikevale3620 you may be correct however also my initial post was imprecise. It was the Spirit or Aurora Melb to Syd, then the Mail sydney to ? where we changed, before the Motor rail to Jerilderie. Sorry but at almost 50 years ago, my memories are a little imprecise!
@@anthonywatts2033 Timetables varied over the years and some mail trains went from Sydney, likely in your case to Junee, then branched off to Griffith. The rail motor you caught would likely have started at Narrandera to go to Jerilderie. Your memory's pretty good so don't beat yourself up about it. Knowing the 'Aurora dining car menu as I remember it, burgers were definitely not on that menu as it was a first class service. However the Spirit had one silver sleeping car like the 'Aurora and the rest of the cars were VR blue with gold streamlining, so perhaps that was your train bearing in mind the 'Aurora only stopped at Albury and Goulburn for crew changes and only in later years for passengers. If you travelled with your friends later in the 1980's you may have travelled on the Sydney Express which was a mashup of 'Aurora and 'Spirit cars into one overnight train, which would have had the buffet car and the dining car attached.
Same sort of thing happened here in New Zealand, with the "then" Minister of Railways (Peter Gordon) who was also the Minister of Transport (at the same time) had a CONFLICT OF INTEREST as he also had a VERY LARGE shareholding in one specific road transport company operating in the road transport of livestock "industry", and that was why - as a conflict of interests - saw him DEREGULATE the 150 km road stock-cartage restrictions, allowing stock trucks to carry, "from farm to freezing works" livestock to be killed at various distant freezing works (previously only serviced by rail) , to avoid the Railways having a monopoly on long distance haulage.
The conflict of interests meant that as a shareholder of a trucking business, he (deliberately) compromised the rail network, in preference to road transport (done purely to increase the value of his shareholding of a trucking business)
By thus allowing MORE long / heavy / smelly stock-trucks onto the already clogged NZ Roading network, that (ONE) Govt Minister "Peter Gordon" effectively killed the NZR's ability to carry ANY livestock as trucks had previously had to cart from farm to railway stations nearest the farms, to then have he trains transport long distances to freezing works, to then either tranship to trucks again - or have livestock kept in railway wagons until unloaded - and thus the demise of the NZR as a carrier of livestock and very soon after that general freight quickly ended (as more & more goods were shipped excessively long distances, by trucks alone).
It was this massive decline in livestock movements alone - that saw way too many small NZ Railway Branch lines closed - with even the massively long Otago Central Branch which was closed almost entirely - with only the tourist route between Wingatui & Middlemarch - later shrunk to terminate at the Pukerangi Station - for the Taieri Gorge Tourist Trains, being kept open and not uplifted.
Sometimes it isn't the right thing, to have (in respect to the NZR) any parliamentary individual (or in respect to an Australian horse racing expert) to have too much influence on the outcome of their respective reports - that directly conflict with their own personal interests - that they then abuse, by feathering their personal (financial) interests above & beyond those of their supposed true governance issues, which they cover-up, to create a financial bias for themselves..
The loss of MANY small rural gallops racecourses around NZ, just so that ONE influential Australian gallops advisor could shut down so many competitive racecourses here in NZ - instead of closing a lot of non profitable events in Australia - begs the same question .. ?
Who gave him the right hand of GOD to destroy many NZ racing events (held in high esteem by their NZ owners and clients alike..?
Thus - it's the same everywhere.
When someone is given two polar opposite jobs to do, can they perform those jobs CORRECTLY, if they have a personal financial interest in keeping one in business instead of the other?
Can you explain what happened to South Australia's rail network, how they closed down the network and why did they do that the same way you did for this video please ?
Damn imagine closing the Upfield line 😢
It was SO close to closing because of all the manually operated gates needed to stop the traffic.
If you are interested, there is a really interesting video by @metromanmelbourne about how the upfield line was nearly converted into a light rail. The line's poor frequency today is mostly to blame for the cuts made to the network in the 1990s, hopefully more services can run when the Metro Tunnel is done!
@ 2:54. You left off the Beechworth line which closed December 1976. Plus funny on that map is no Bright line which didn’t close until the early 1980’s?
Kennett declined to fund the XPT from Sydney so it was run entirely by Countrylink. I think the cost was $4M which would have paid for one XPT carset.
Kennett’s idea was that any business could run any country service and this did happen with Hoy’s running the Shepparton trains and West Coast running the Warrnambool line.
Also some freight lines were also cut, such as the Timboon line and particularly the Balmoral line where farmers threatened to block the track and the local Liberal member lost his seat. The unions warned the farmers not to abuse train crews.
One XPT set was owned by Vline and operated by Countrylink, though the Bracks Government sold it back to Countrylink/NSWGR
Private transport can make a loss, public transport has a cost. Public transport is not run on a “for profit” basis. It is a common good.
Loonie level crossing removal project is fire
What happened to moo transit
I’m happy to watch moo again
@3:36 Anyhow have a Winfield !
I'm so glad that some of the great VR lines are still with us as a passenger service and for frieght. Yes it's not what it once was and certainly imperfect. However I'm glad that the attitude (are our tax payer dollars) are slowely being funneled into new ideas for the system.
Niec
Moo transit is back
ish
galvin and paisley remaining open 😍😍😍
another reupload? :0
that's what I was thinking, didn't the original vid belong to someone else?? or is it the same person different name?
@@papersiren508 it was by moo transit but they had a falling out and this is the narrators channel whos reuploading and making his own stuff
@@emilyisoffline dang ok. thanks
A very interesting video, if the report was followed without exceptions, just think of the horrendous cost to the tax payer today, based on the global warming situation, to re instate all the current lines that are still in use that would have been closed & ripped up, once again this should be a warning about commissioning reports only looking at the current information & thinking, without considering the future.
You mean like reinstating the previous double track ripped up by Labor between Kyneton and Bendigo? Only in the last 15 years? While population is booming and which now contests the track and service. Or standardising Ararat to Horsham so we can not run direct Melb- Horsham trains anymore? Again only relatively recently.
well I am from NSW & although I worked for NSWGR & all the other names it had from 1964 to 2005 there has been many strange decisions going on in this state as well, I don't understand converting rail corridors from double to single track, I have heard the reason given to justify it, reduce cost of track maintenance, & converting sections rail corridors from broad to standard gauge is a unfortunate outcome of the decision over one hundred & fifty years ago, I suspect in the fullness of time most of the still open country rail corridors will be converted to standard gauge, the suburban rail network will remain 5'-3'', in those area's where both is required there will be duel gauge, the one good thing happening in your state regarding rail, is the return of country passenger services & I suspect this will continue to improve if the public demands it.
Hold on. You’re a bit all over the place. The conversion of the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines to light rail didn’t occur until 20 years later 4 governments later. Nothing to do with the Lonie Report.
sounds like adelaide
This sounds like en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts
Pretty much!