A CONVERSATION ABOUT ISRAEL/PALESTINE: Isaac talks with Haviv Gur
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- I spoke with Haviv Gur, an Israeli analyst who - in my humble opinion - is one of the deepest thinkers covering Israel, Palestine, and the conflict between the two. Gur disagrees strongly with my call for a ceasefire, and his arguments are the best I’ve heard. He spoke at length about how a ceasefire would harm Palestinians more than Israelis, the issues motivating Hamas, the state of Islam in the region, the current dynamics of the war, what the Palestinians are owed, and how we might get to a more positive, constructive future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. It was a long, thoughtful, challenging conversation.
Love what you see? More Tangle here:
NEWSLETTER - www.readtangle...
PODCAST - podcasters.spo....
TWITTER - / tanglenews
INSTAGRAM - / tangle.news
FACEBOOK - / tanglenews
COOL MERCH - cottonbureau.c....
DONATE - tangle.outpost....
GIFT A TANGLE NEWSLETTER SUBSCRIPTION - tangle.outpost...
First heard Haviv interviewed by Bari Weiss months ago. I'm a life-long follower now.
This was soooooo great. I learned a ton!!!!!!!!!! It explains a lot. Haviv Rettig Gur's interviews are so informative.
Haviv is the best and more American outlets need to bring him on
😊😊😊😊😊
G
U
N
Guns Speak louder than words. M😂uhammed's lesson conquored the. East from the. I😊dus To the Atlantic
“We do not owe them our own destruction. We do owe them their independence.” What a great summation.
As an Israeli I assure you - *We do NOT owe them their independence* and they didn't ever wanted it.
They are no more then destructive terror gangs of INVADERS (that's what they even call themselves) who have one mission - to destroy whatever is Israeli / western / modern
Excellent! Journalists should aspire to Haviv Gur's intricate knowledge of the middle east.
Breathtaking in depth explanation of the Jewish/Islamic predicament.
Wow. This interview blew me away. It is food for thought delivered with a degree of depth I've only occasionally come close to seeing a handful of times. I'll have to follow Haviv Gur, now. I only wish the US Dept of State would listen to him, too.
I always love Haviv’s clear minded honesty, clarity, and practicality
War criminal
Ex IDF
Lunatic
This interview is the single most helpful piece of media I've watched/read in terms of helping me to understand wtf animates Hamas/their allies. I feel as though I finally have some sense of the substance in the conflict. It's also made me humbly aware of just how divorced from reality the entire American & Canadian progressive or liberal responses are. Wow. Talk about irrelevant.
Haviv is brilliant.
Wow! First in-depth explanation of the theological underpinnings of Hamas that I’ve heard and now I see the situation in the Middle East from a completely different perspective.
This was amazing. Thank you for this and for continually challenging me. I crave this type of engagement in our world of clickbait headlines. So worth the 90 minutes!!!
Thanks for watching it all!
Haviv is a GIANT and I follow every morsel of his commentary, be it written or spoken. No one seems to understand the inner dynamics and complexities of this matter or the history that informs it in both a microcosmic and macrocosmic terms such as he. He has a GIFT in breaking things down and distilling them to their most fundamental essence while still remaining pragmatic and wholly non-biased and respectful as possible.
Absolutely. Well said.
Thank you for this in-depth analysis! It confirmed me once again in the idea that the hope for peace lies on the path where people accept the agency of the weak, not the powerful, as the revelation of all Abrahamic religions
I've been really looking forward to this one. It did not disappoint. Thank you Isaac (and Haviv too of course).
Thank you for watching!
Very interesting, very balanced and also respectful of the Islamic/Palestinian/Arab side - that is, not infantising them, saying Arabs have no agency in their actions, but also going into the philosophy, or rather, different philosophies in the conflict.
Haviv is required listening for anyone wanting a well informed perspective on the conflict.
Not often I make it through that long of a video, but it was worth it and seemed like less than half the time. Such good perspective and thought. I will be thinking this one over for quite a while!!
All Haviv's interviews and lectures are worth the listen. He covers the history of the Palestine area in the last 140 years.
Catch every interview this gentleman does.
I do too. Every time he speaks, I listen in awe… He’s brilliant
Anyone seriously interested in the Israel Palestinian conflict needs to watch this conversation
I'm curious how he'd respond to the right to return for Palestinians given how important it is for many Palestinians.
It would be cool to see a debate between Haviv and one of the best folks on the pro-Palestinian side.
There is a two state proposal that respects the right of return as well as Israelis who wish to remain in the West Bank. Take a look at A Land for All.
@@deskset7436 I have visited their website before and I follow them on social media. Thank you for mentioning them :)
@@deskset7436 do you know this chant popular on college campuses?
"Khaybar, Khaybar, ya yahud! Jaish Muhammad soufa yaʿoud!"
Do you know what series of events to which it refers, and the outcome?
Like every other Israeli….
They are asking for a state of their own but want to “return” to the other state is non sensical
That was 90 minutes well spent.
Thank you for the insightful dialogue.
Am Yisrael Chai.
Sydney.
Fabulous interview. I learned soooo much. Gur’s fluency for explaining the longer historical arc that led to the current moment in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict really clarified my thinking! Thank you, Isaac. I can totally understand why you were so profoundly affected and are promoting it so strongly to your readership/viewership. Well done!
Haviv is a remarkably knowledgeable speaker. I’ve never listened to a podcast of this length but I learned so much about the history of this conflict it was worth every minute. Thanks for making this happen for Tangle readers!
What stuck with me the most in this incredibly packed and rich interview is what Haviv refers to as students' lack of curiosity. No questions asked, they know everything there is to know. If October 7 has taught us anything, is that that combination of hubris, laziness and stupidity is anything but harmless.
I never thought I would be that engrossed for 1.5 hours on a subject that I could take or leave. Now I understand to a certain level why this is an ongoing (problem) through out the Muslim world.
Finally, finally, finally, a perspective shared in Tangle that looks at the Israel-Gaza situation with an understanding of the historical context and a clear eyed view of Hamas. It should not have taken this long. And should be shared with those who read the newsletter but don't watch the RUclips channel. I am very curious, Isaac, to know if this has changed your opinion in any way, or if, after this, you still are calling for a ceasefire.
me too... sharing it with people arguing.
Having is incredibly knowledgeable & understanding of nuance, we need him on more podcasts…. 🇬🇧🇮🇱 Thankyou for this illuminating conversation gentlemen
Excellent interview. It's refresher to hear a serious discussion of the conflict, rather than talking points from mostly clueless partisan talking heads.
Been reading and attending conferences with him a long time and am always fascinated. Haviv is one of the deepest and most honest thinkers.
So informative really like listening to Haviv.Thnx
Haviv always brings rationality to the Muslim POV. He truly understands what goes on it their heads and should be invited to speak on more programs.
Brilliant. Haviv is just brilliant.
the background on Salafism was very helpful. Thank you
Great interview. I would like to hear and see a similar conversation with a Palestinian analyst of equal stature to Haviv present the Palestinian view.
I think the Churchill quote Haviv was looking for near the end was this one: “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”
This was so informative. Kudos to you
Great interview. At 1:01:45 look for Realignment Plan.
Compassionate realism....Haviv.
I thought I was fairly well versed on this complex, tragic situation. After listening to Haviv Gur in this terrific podcast, I realize I have a lot to learn. Again, I intend to listen to this again. But, Isaac, what analyst from an opposing view should I listen to next? -So I can become really tangled.
Haviv Gur was exactly right in saying that this is a fundamental religious issue. In America we do not like to point to religious ideology as the source of conflict but in reality the Middle East has always had this conflict. We need to recognize that those who follow the Islamic theology of the end of the world whichwill see Allah and Islam being the true religion will not stop and participate in the ideology of Western Democracy. But also no one is talking about those Palestinians who don't buy into that theology but are pacifists and believe in a coexistence of Christians, Jews, and Muslims. They hold a future peace in the area. Thank you, Isaac, for being courageous enough to hear all sides and bring such a profound thinker to the table.
Haviv said this in one of his lectures - "The success of the Jewish state basically from a rabble of European and Middle Eastern refugees since 1882 is the biggest failure in the history of Islam".
A brilliant discussion that deserves a larger audience. Thank you Saul and Haviv.
حبيب فاهم المحنة النفسية الخانقة لمخيلة المسلمين
And the failure of Western imagination to understand Hamas/allies in their own terms. Great interview, I learned so much!
I wish I could share this with just absolutely everyone 😢
Haviv has a deep understanding of the underpinnings of this conflict without which, all commentary becomes void of intellectual honesty. It is so ideological that the peace process of it ever existed one, cannot be achieved without this understanding.
Jews are not going anywhere, and Palestinians aren’t either, so it is up to Palestinians to have the agency to choose a better future.
So, I'm curious, Isaac, did this change your mind?
So my takeaway is that the path forward is to somehow build a new narrative on a path to greatness that does not involve conquest and bloodshed.
Fantastic! Get Rudy Rochman please!
Something not discussed in this interview is that like the Palestinians, the Israelis have an internal extremist faction, which is the ultra-orthodox settlers who want to continue to expand Israel at the direct cost of Palestinians. These extremist factions need to be reigned in on both sides if progress is to be made.
Comparing the two is laughable, and the settlers aren't the issue. There were no settlers or expansionism going on a before 67 and we had no avenue for peace through the Arab/Muslim route.
I make no judgment about any equality between the two parties. My point is that the extremist factions on both sides lead to flashpoints, which both sides then take to justify their responses. In short, extremists make it harder or impossible for the majority on both sides to reach an acceptable compromise. In this situation, compromise is required, because the only other solution is the total destruction of one side or the other, mostly benefitting third parties. Or so it seems.
@@justmyopinion99I agree. Netanyahu has handled his time in power in a way that almost universally has been viewed as not helpful to either Israel nor Palestine. And the settlers, while hugely different from Islamic extremist terrorists, consistently add tension to the region. It’s a region that does not need more tension. I crave intelligent and knowledgeable thinkers like Haviv’s perspective on these more difficult elements that the current government helps support.
There is no palestinians. They are Gazans and hamas. There are many arabs who live peacefully in Israel. There are many countries that are arab. They do not need another country. The is only 1 israel for jewish people. Many arab countries have allowed gazans in but they tried to take over and were kicked out.
The problem here is as you state - you make no judgment. Your opinion is based on faulty thinking. Israel is the rightful owner of Judea and Samaria. Gaza, too.
You will learn from this gentleman and dr. dan schueftan why the Israel's are so justified in most everything. I don't like Netanyahu, but the policy is fundamentally sound. You have to know the whole background and story starting in 1880.
Thank you for providing this podcast very well done and informative.
Thank you for watching!
What an unbelievable interview. Haviv seems to be one of the most realistic, intrinsic, practical and knowledgeable people on this conflict. Loved how the interviewer didn't interrupt often and let him do his thing. Hope for peace in this region one day in our lifetime.
1:27:20 you literally got me clapping. thats what needs to be said
Very informative. I appreciate the views that are grounded in realism and thoughtfulness.
An amazing conversation. This radically opened my mind and shifted my perspective. This is the kind of work that makes Tangle indispensable! I’ll be following Haviv’s work thanks to this conversation!
I hear the word as Incurious. but I definitely get the point...
The most realistic narrative I have ever heard.
What a fantastic interview thank you, I hope more people find this channel and this video
One would wish that the Palestinian people would get wise.
Haviv is a brilliant thinker. I can listen to him all day long…
Davis Maria Anderson Donald Moore Margaret
Excellent conversation and excellent guest.
Haviv is a great speaker, but Dr. Dan understands better!
That was unbelievable!
This was so illuminating.
“Israel doesn’t owe the Palestinians its destruction, but it owes them their independence”.
The host, with all due respect, I’m glad you admitted your polianish view. I sense resistance in you to the reality of Israel’s survival. Saying things like I want the war to stop is really… saying I want to feel good about myself and Israel be damned.
People who have used the gifts given to them for evil and destruction of the givers, are OWED NOTHING except taking away any opportunity to continue in belligerence. The Arabs in Israel have to decide whether they will be truly peaceable and live under Israeli rule, or whether to join their brethren in one of the many Arab countries. No “Palestine” fri the river to the sea.
No editing possible on phone, so I add the obvious correction here - “from the river to the sea.”
Precisely. He must understand that it's not about palestinian independece. Not even for the palestinians. They would have no problem if it wasn't Israel but some muslim country. The whole cause is a machiavellian tool of power for pan-arab and islamic interests against the jewish minority. And concessions will not bring you any closer to peace and justice. They are seen as a sign of weakness in the Middle East. Every advantage and gain in power that grows through a concession on their side is used to fight even more aggressively and effectively.
Very thoughtful!
As a believer in God (Muslim), I have one point I would like to share:
why is everyone missing the message of God?
The day of judgment will happen when you die.
You will be held accountable for your actions.
No matter if you are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim!
We are all spawned in different areas (religion), but what you do is what matters!
On the day of judgment, everyone will be judged as an individual, not a group!
let's Take sides with cation because our life is short and the group is not us or our future.
28:00 1:05:00
Haviv Gur. I first heard him interviewed by Bari Weiss Earlier this year.
Then I heard your interview-this one.
Better than anyone else I have read or heard, Gur describes the true nature of the conflict between Israel and Hamas.
It’s not conceptual. It’s not political.
It is ancient, tribal, and religious in ways most westerners could ever be able to meaningfully relate to.
Evangelical Christians seem to think they can. But, with all due respect, the rest of America needs not only to pay them no mind at all-we need to disown and repudiate their apocalyptic ideology.
Israel’s fight is Israel’s oh-so-ancient, oh-so-tribal, oh-so-religious fight.
Haviv has a few videos on Shalem College's channel, regarding the Israeli and Palestinian experience. Highly recommend!
Thanks firstly both .Gur is in a fascinating analysis and when he says he talks to long ,no response .Please show some enthusiasm for an incredible analysis.Then Gur ,did you get tired and say ‘great question’ to the idiotic comment of a ceasefire to avoid future generations hate ,or something to that effect .Not to rule out a ceasefire but suddenly they are going to love Israelis change their internal narrative because of a ceasefire .It amazes me that someone intelligent can be so naive at best .Mike
Good work Isaac and Team!
Thank you for watching!
dude wanted a simple answer; Haviv set him straight. I ❤ Haviv Rettig Gur.
Fantastic interview!
Much appreciated!
THE FIRST TIME IN ALMOST 8 MONTHS YOU BRING A PRO ISRAEL SIDE? TELLS A LOT ABOUT YOU.
Haviv is Israel’s strategic geopolitical thinker GOAT!
Dan schueftan and yoram Ettinger are worth checking out too
The first step to getting people to support your war is to dehumanize the enemy. Draw them as simplified caricatures that justify your actions against them. Those caricactures are never fair or correct, but just right enough about the most negative aspect of the most extreme individuals, amplified, to seem justified to those not inclined to think and to question, which seems to be over 80% of humans.
I thought this was the most powerful part of Gur's responses - deeply humanized Hamas/their allies
Haviv is amazing! Thank you for this!
It wasn’t about Israel not being able to move the 1.5 million people away from Rafah. The original US position was that Israel needed to move them to a safe zone & provide them shelter, electricity, medical care, & the appropriate amount of food, water, & other aid.
1:15:25
As an academic and a journalist, I wonder how Gur feels about IDF targeting academics and journalists in Gaza.
❤
This was such a great interview.
I’ve never heard someone share the Hamas point of view in such a clear way. It’s incredibly helpful in understanding why they do things that seem so illogical - and awful - from an outsiders point of view. I appreciate that I now I have an understanding of where they are coming from and I find it incredibly important to the whole situation.
And his explanation of the Israeli experience is deeply insightful and helpful as well. He gave the most succinct explanation of that perspective that I’ve heard.
I think he made it very obvious that we in the West - and maybe the whole world - do not understand the varying perspectives of the people involved in this part of the world. I don’t think we earn a right to agree or disagree until we have taken the time and energy to understand. Listening to him is by far the most helpful thing I’ve heard/read toward gaining the understanding that is needed of all sides.
One thing we haven’t heard from any news organization I can find, is the perspective of Israeli Arabs. What are their perspectives on Hamas, Gaza, West Bank and the Palestinian community? They are Israelis, but not Jews. What do they think of Hamas and their actions? Or Gaza, the West Bank, and the Palestinian community? What do they think of the Israeli response?
Look up Bari Weiss interviewing Lucy Aharish (from around february I think) its just the perspective of one Israeli arab but I think its a profound interview
@@tomeryeshurun8873thank you! I will do that!
Wait, let me get this straight, an American Jew who calls himself a Zionist has waited 8 months to bring on to his podcast a guest who believes Israel has a right to exist?
Wow.
An honest question - how responsible are all people for the actions of the leaders they either select or abide, and thus enable? Are Israelis responsible for the actions of their government? Are Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas? Are the people obligated to suffer for the actions of their leaders, as they enjoy the benefits of the actions of their leaders, whether that is a moral or ethical action or not? Are Russians responsible for the actions of Putin? Were Germans responsible for the actions of the Nazis? Were the British responsible for the atrocities of the British empire?
I believe that people are responsible for the actions of their leaders, and are required to contain and remove those leaders when. necessary, or suffer the consequences of those leader's actions and decisions. Is a citizen of a country directly and personally responsible for every atrocity commited by their government? Probably not, but they are certainly contributors.
The answer to tnis plays into the question of whether Gazans should bear the burden of the response of Israel to the insults executed by Hamas. It is part of the fabric of the history of the middle east, and the war.
"Are Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas?"
Did you just come out of hibernation of something? Palestinian society is completely mobilized and galvanized by jihadist ideas and the destruction/replacement of Israel. There is ample evidence out there that shows Palestinian civilians helping Hamas and other Islamic militants. Many Palestinian civilians participated in the Oct 7th attack, including kidnapping and looting.
Your question is the core of the individualism/collectivism debate. I don’t think it has a simple answer, but I believe the extreme form where “the people” are something completely detached from “the government” is a recent phenomena brought by American individualism that sees the government as only a mechanism for facilitating citizen freedom and prosperity. Until recently and all through history people always thought in terms of “peoples” or races or nations. In other words the atomic actors of history were collective organisms, not the individuals from which they were composed, and our moral viewpoint reflected this fact.
On a practical level, the people will suffer consequences of the actions of their leader whether they support him or not, whether you think this is right or wrong. You better act as if you were responsible for it.
In modern times, we can fairly accurately gauge how aligned a population is with its leaders. In the case of democracies, obviously voting is the key indicator. In non-democracies, we have the following: independent polling, civil disobedience, armed resistance, and subterfuge. A population largely aligned with its leadership bears equal responsibility.
If we take Gaza as an example of a non-democracy, polling indicates very high support for Hamas and its underlying ideology. We have seen no armed resistance or widespread civil disobedience since they were elected. Many people argue such things are not possible given the level of control Hamas exerts. I am willing to entertain that their control is so pervasive, resistance has been futile.
However, we cannot ignore the CURRENT lack of subterfuge or resistance. We would hope to see hostage and Hamas officer locations reported to the IDF, as well as widespread civilian “mutiny.” Imagine how quickly this war would have been fought under such conditions.
@@joge2468 A population, if attacked, will naturally rally around it's leadership - even if this leadership didn't have much support before. You don't see "mutiny" as a result of external pressure.
It IS clear all of this IS optimism.😂
What a brilliant and valuable discussion
A little charitable to term this a "conversation", but it was informative and Haviv was self-aware that he was propounding a personal point of view. I would enjoy seeing him debated on some of the points he makes, however!
Curious, which points would you see as good starting points for debates?
Maybe bring a Palestinian to speak on behalf of what Palestinians think or believe?
Fluent Arab speakers tell me that most of these leaders speak some form of "social justice" and victimhood in English and speak annihilation in Arabic.
In terms of rap flows, the chant "Khaybar Khaybar, ya Yahud! Jaish Muhammad soufa yaʿoud!" is top form.
It's popular on college campuses when Arabic speaking militants are leading the chant.
It means mass m----r.
It refers to the battle of Khaybar, Muhammad's first major win, in which the Jewish tribe in Mecca surrendered.
Jaish Muhammad, the army of Muhammad, executed all 300+ men, checked the teens for pubes and spared those with no pubes, and enslaved all those not killed, mainly the women.
The wife of the leader was dragged past her deceased husband (she cried out and fainted at the horror) to Mohammed's tent, where he instantly "married" her, aka graped 🍇 her.
That's THE future of dealing with the most pious and most obedient Muslims, not to say all of them, who are committed to serving Allah and obeying Muhammad in this manner.
not one Palestinian perspective, but many, because this discourse is deep in a bubble of dehumanizing racism!
I suggest watching anything by Ranka Kalek on Breakthrough News!
Isaac has interviewed at least 3 Palestinian thinkers/voices in the past few months
Hi there! Haviv was actually the first Israeli we have had on the show since the war began. All of our past interviews about this have been with Palestinian academics or anti-Israel pundits, hence the introduction to this interview.
For the most recent, you can see our interview with Youseff Munayyer here: www.readtangle.com/yousef-munayyer-palestinian-american-interview/
Or our interview with Daniel Bannoura here: podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/episodes/The-Sunday-podcast-Isaac-and-Ari-interview-Daniel-Bannoura-e2fkstb
@@tanglenewsThe person who commented is clearly a bad faith actor.
He said the American pier is fully operational😂
One thing that throws all you've said out of the window is the Arab initiative of 2002. All Arab and Islamic countries(inclusive of Iran) proposed full economic and diplomatic recognition of Israel if Israel withdraws to pre 1967 borders and a Palestinian State created on 22% of historical Palestine with east Jerusalem as it's capital!
Salafi, Islam as weak etc are all excuses just that
.
International law, UN security resolution 242 and concenssus of all countries advocate exactly that!
don't blame me if i doubt that's earnest. especially if iran's agreed to it.
@@GY-bd9bo doubting earnestly while providing no alternative? Am waiting
Amazing how cheap and easy to discard for Haviv are the lives of Palestinian children. "If only 100 die every day instead of 1,000 that seems better, but we just need to pull the bandaid off faster." (i.e. slowing down to only 100 deaths a day is a bad thing, keep the rate high at a 1,000....) The paranoia of Israeli minds is deep, profound and tragic. "Might makes right", says history, and Israel definitely has the might. Sad. They don't know how to use it. Psychology teaches us that "hurt people, hurt people" and Israel is hurting a lot of people, it has repeated Oct 7 almost daily against the Gazans and yet somehow they think they are "just" in doing so. They need to read the Torah again, and remember that Gazans are not Amalek. Using the Torah as a proof text for genocide is an atrocity, and more people need to talk about it as such. #ceasefirenow
As horrific as the Gaza situation is, I haven't heard any Western critic of Israel (including myself) coming up with a solution. Well, except for those who wish for the end of Israel. Also, you and I don't live in Israel post-October 7. If we were, what would we feel, think, worry about, and decide? I don't know but I understand Haviv Gur's point.
@@pezeron24 Haviv's point is easy to understand, and most do, which is tragic. We have dehumanized other humans and their lives are deemed not as valuable as others. Full stop. Gabor Mate, Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peled, Noam Chomsky, Daniel Boyarin are just a few Israeli-American voices who have solutions for equality and justice for all. None of their solutions require continual slaughter of innocent children. The thought that ongoing war is necessary is a false premise. The thought that you can strip other humans of their freedoms and rights and have a sustained acquiescence to this suppression and achieve any human flourishing is simply not realistic. War is a false choice. But the companies profiting to the tune of 62 Billion $ off of this war in 10 months is the result of people going with Haviv's thinking, and that of Netanyahu and company.
“More democratic way” NPC word slop
You need to listen to Dr. Dan Schueftan, he knows what is needed to properly manage the Palestinians problem. Dr. Mordechai Kedar, can also tell you why Palestinians and terrorism are inseparable.
If they’d allow the civilians into the tunnels then the Israelis would say that they were keeping them hostage down there. Either way though, why would the Gazans or anyone else want to be inside a tunnel? You wouldn’t.
3:47 - the moment the intro got too long.
Fantastic talk! (hardly an interview 😂)
But i think Israel needs to do more to separate itself from Judaism… like complete secularism.
Secularism is destroying the US and Israel. Religion isn’t the answer, true, but God is.
Could any European country separate themselves from Christianity? If you’re about to answer that they all (or many of them) did - you obviously haven’t a clue about the centrality of Christianity to European society and way of life, beyond strictly religious.
@@patzan48 generally, you don’t accomplish something by thinking you are not going to accomplish it. You set out to do it because you know it’s the path forward, you make a plan, and you try and try again, until you succeed.
Aviv is great. You are a shame.You escintially a traitor
Hopelessly confused, conflicted individual with little understanding of the facts on the ground.
The problem with this guy, a decent, intelligent, guy, is that he lives in a particularly Israeli world view in which it is always somebody else’s fault, somebody else’s responsibility and Israeli’s are simply the victims of unreasoned hatred. In his view, the conflict comes more from an obscure Islamic philosophical movement to redeem Islam, rather than Israel’s actual history from the foundation of Zionism in the 1890’s until today. The early Zionists described their project to the Europeans as “colonialist” because colonialism was considered a force for good at that time. At the very beginning of Zionism 94% of Palestinians were Arabs. Arabs started violent resistance to Jewish immigration and land acquisition in 1928 and they have been in violent conflict ever since, a forever war. He never mentioned the displacement of 750,000 Palestinians and the creation of the refugee crisis. He never mentioned the 1967 war and the occupation. He never mentioned the entire settlement issue and Israel’s refusal to curtail it. He never described the genuine suffering of Palestinians living generation after generation without basic human rights as we know them. He never described the humiliation of the check points, the appropriation of land, the demolition of houses. He would rather talk about Islamic philosophy than the basic suffering that the Zionist project has visited on these people for generations. He expresses astonishment that they would react with stones and then suicide bombs, as if it were all entirely irrational, as if it came from nowhere. He believes that the fact that Israeli’s have no place to go somehow makes them less colonial than the French in Algeria, or the white colonial South Africans, who were driven out by anti-colonial violence. But the Palestinians know that Israeli’s can get on a plane any time they want and move to Canada or the US or wherever they want, if their lives are made miserable enough. There is nothing special about Israeli’s, except perhaps their cruelty and almost total lack of self awareness relating to this issue.
He is extensively knowledgeable and having bias may prevent a person from seeing that in this particular podcast talk. I encourage you to find other lectures by him that precisely address some of the points of history you mentioned. Also, you may want to look up the definition of colonialism to understand his reasoning as to why the Israeli story doesn't fit any conventional and historical use of the term. If anything, the Israeli story is a DEcolonization story of people returning to the land they come from. There is a legitimate debate about how it came about and who was hurt in the process and how to remedy that hurt, but both things can be true at once, and this conflic isn't an either/or situation. Nuance and critical thinking are key and if this conflict could be summed up simply by the 'cruelty' of one side or another... it would have ended long ago. Peace.
Contrary to today’s colonialism narrative, Zionism was viewed as returning an indigenous population to its homeland. Israel was not created, it was “reconstituted.” The entire Ottoman Empire was arbitrarily divided up into nation states. Israel was one of those states.
I wonder what the narrative would be if the Mizrahi (1M Jews spread throughout the ME and N Africa) had founded Izz real rather than the Ashkenazi. This segment of Izz real’s population (a large majority of Jews there who were expelled from or fled Muslim countries 1930s-1950s) goes unmentioned because to do so would be to acknowledge a large Jewish presence in the Levant that dates back to Babylonian times. They are an inconvenient, visibly indistinguishable from Arabs, truth.
@@mumblesfairy Thanks for the thoughtful comment. With respect, there tends to be a fierce denial on the part of many supporters of Zionism, that a lot of other people’s eggs had to be broken in order make the Zionist omelet, to realize a dream which only has meaning to Jews. I am afraid Haviv Gur, like many others, simply does not want to take ownership of the extraordinary suffering their movement has brought to people who, prior to the Zionist’s arrival, were only interested in having a quiet, agricultural life. It is much easier to blame the Palestinians and ignore the real history that brought us to this point. As a result of this stubborn denial, Israel is now facing a forever war. It was reported that an Israeli cab driver once said “We should go to the Arabs, with clubs in hand, and beat them and beat them and beat them, until they stop hating us”. Not a good long term strategy.
What planet do you live on? I mean, I agree that he’s an Israeli with an Israeli understanding. But iraqi, Syrian, Egyptian and Yemini Jews do not have second passports. Plenty of Palestinians also hold second citizenship. I agree that he didn’t cover the barriers Israelis have created for peace. But it is ABSOLUTELY not true that suffering causes people to murder families in their beds. Jews suffered in Europe for over a thousand years without turning to terrorism. The ANC did not use terrorism. Gandhi did not use terrorism. The American civil rights movement did not use terrorism. The Tibetans are not using terrorism. Terrorism is a choice to gain through violence something you have failed to get through political action. That’s all it is - it is a strategic choice.
@@deskset7436 Thanks for your response. I must remind you that the Jews of Palestine, before the establishment of the State of Israel, used extensive terrorist attacks against the British for limiting Jewish immigration after World War II, including Holocaust survivors. The King David Hotel bombing, which killed 91 people and injured 46, including Arabs, Brits and Jews, was the worst terrorist bombing in all of Israel’s history. This Jewish terrorist campaign also included assassinations and kidnappings. They did this because it was an asymmetrical conflict. In that case, the British had the power and the Jews did not. In the current case, the Israeli’s have the power and the Arabs do not. And so terrorism is used. It is not kind, it is not civilized, but neither is killing 35,000 people. This is an extraordinarily ugly conflict and it has since the Hebron massacre of 1928. All of this painful history tends to be ignored when blaming Palestinians for the whole mess. It is entirely understandable why supporters of Zionism prefer to avoid their unpleasant history, but that does not make it go away.